Hey, they're folks, and welcome to this latest episode of Amy and TJ Presents Today. It's about the Epstein survivors who robes last week, just last week, we saw that press conference, powerful press conference outside the US Capitol, with many victims stepping forward wanting more Epstein files to be released. And it's wild to think that these are victims who suffered in some cases decades ago, who are still healing
after decades, but are still as well being victimized. They say, by what we're seeing in the press.
That's right, and there is a reason why we're just now seeing their faces and their names. They have been anonymous, they were Jane Doe, number one, two, three, whatever, because of all of the reasons why you tend to protect obviously victims of sexual abuse, sexual assault, but also there's just so much fear surrounding this case, so much talk about powerful men and powerful people being able to exact revenge, and just honestly, for decades, not being believed, not being heard,
not being listened to. So it's a huge, huge deal that these women are finally stepping forward and putting their names and faces out there. And that's scary and it can have unintended consequences.
And look, we've talked for years, it's hard to even imagine the trauma, the healing psychologically that is necessary, I guess to continue on with life. Unfortunately, Virginia Juphrey, of course we know as a young lady who took her own life just this year, who was very outspoken Epstein survivor. But we wondered, like, how are they getting help? Who is helping these women sometimes from their teen years, Who has helping them and who is continuing to help them
along their path? And that is why we have Randy Cogan with us today, a license psychotherapist who has worked with a number of these victims for decades now and continues to do so. Randy, did we thank you for being here? But do we get that right? That what happens if you have been doing all of this healing for all these many years and even decades, and then boom, all of this press coverage, all of this back and
forth is happening. Are you being victimized? Does it really open up a whole new avenue of healing that is necessary?
Yes, it does, And throughout the years from two thousand and eight, from before two thousand and eight, healing has been disrupted over and over and over again. You know, first it was reported and Epstein was arrested. Okay, now we're moving towards justice. There's a chance here that they can feel some sort of justice. Then the sweetheart deal came about, and the legal team, the prosecutor alex Acosta,
nobody informed the victims of this sweetheart deal. So in two thousand and eight, two thousand and nine, the survivors that I was treating, I was the individual who had to let them know about the sweetheart deal, and it was quite devastating because what came out of that sweetheart deal is they were looked at a child prostitutes because
he was charged with the solicitation of child prostitution. So the revictimization started right out of the gate when he was initially arrested, and it continued throughout the past eighteen years, up and down, on and off. So there hasn't been a steady stream of that healing process that we would like to see with individuals who have been trafficked, sexually exploited, and groomed as young teens.
Rennie, can I ask you how you first got involved with some of these Epstein victims. How were you first introduced and how did you begin to work with them?
I starting in two thousand and four, I was working at Palm Beach County Victim Services. And at Victim Services we worked in the courthouse and we worked with victims of violent crimes in Palm Beach County, so we worked very closely with law enforcement. We worked very closely with the legal system as well as the FBI. When Epstein was initially arrested and the FBI began the investigation, the victim specialists through the FBI referred the victims to Victim Services.
At that time, the team at Victim Services felt that it would be in all of their best interests. I was the main therapist who worked with the victims because everybody's story was similar. The trauma, trauma was the victimization was similar. I can't say the trauma was, but the stimization was similar. So that's how I started getting involved
and treating the survivors. And then as more individuals came about, when attorneys started getting involved and started picking up clients, they too began referring their victims to me as well.
How many Initially, I want to ask, were you working with And when did you know this was I guess you probably couldn't imagine it was going to become what it now has become, how big of a story. But when did you first start to start getting a little indication of this thing was going to be much bigger than maybe a case you'd ever worked on before.
Well, at the time, I probably, if I'm not mistaken, I was treating about seven victims at the time, seven girls, seven teenagers. They were teenagers at the time. I thought it was strange that I was deposed pretty quickly Jeffrey's attorneys. I thought that was a red flag that they were deposing me so early as well that I just started seeing them when I heard about the sweetheart deal, and that myself, Brad Edwards and other attorneys had to inform
their clients. That was a red flag for me. When I saw the charge of prostitution, I knew that this is a whole different ballgame now, because they just kept revictimizing and accusing and accusing, and the only individual who was seeking support at that time was Epstein. So it was a huge red flag for me right at the beginning when they made the sweetheart deal.
You know, Randy. It's so it's mind blowing to know that here in twenty twenty five, this is the story that it is. And these women now who were girls then, are just now feeling strong enough and safe enough perhaps even to come forward and to hear them have to explain the guilt and the shame. We've heard this in other cases, but this one is significant because people keep asking, well, why would you keep going back, Why would you fly on a private plane, Why would you go to the
island with him? Why would you not have run for the hills or run to a police station. Once that massage became more than a massage, what do you say to those people who have those types of questions about these young.
Girls, Well, the first thing they need to understand is what it needs to be groomed by an individual. Okay, Jeffrey Epstein used his caring relationship, and of course I use that term loosely carrying relationship with each one of his victims as his weapon. So right from the start, he got to know each of them, He got to know their families, he got to know about their dreams, their goals, and he use that to manipulate them, to exploit them. The way that he saw fit and that
made him feel good. So once you develop that relationship, there's something that's called deceptive trust development, and that was something that Epstein banked on, was that deceptive trust that he built in each of these girls. Now, remember we're talking about the ages of thirteen to sixteen, So what do we expect from a thirteen year old girl a sixteen year old girl? Should we expect them to understand
when they're being groomed and manipulated? Many girls felt that they really didn't have a choice because they didn't want to disappoint him. He was such a nice, caring man. He assured some of them he would help families with immigration, would help dreams come true, help them become models. He wrote reference letters to colleges for some of these girls. They didn't want to hurt him. They didn't want to betray him because they had this deceptive relationship that Jeffrey
built with each of them. So it's not easy along their lines with that. Grooming is a form of mental abuse. Rooming makes the victim believe that they are part of the abuse themselves, and that's where that guilt and shame comes from.
What was my role, am I going to get in trouble too.
Many victims in two thousand and eight were waiting to get arrested because they believed that they was just as much to blame as Jeffrey because of that manipulation that I'm speaking.
Of, Randy, was that job one for you? Almost when these victims first came in, you had to almost break down and convince them that they were not the problem. That they had to be convinced to I the word convinced, but you explain it, it make it sound almost they had to be convinced that they were actually victims. Was that a common theme in these young women when you first started talking to them, is that was like that was the first work you had to do.
That is the theme that has been ongoing for the past twenty years because they still second guess at times. There are some girls that want to speak but are afraid to speak. Even when when Epstein died, there was the there were these conflictual feelings because what about all the times that he was good to them?
What about all the times.
That when some of them needed money they were in a pinch.
Jeffrey would show up for them.
So there there's a lot of inner conflict that goes on with grooming and manipulation and mental abuse. So yes, that is an ongoing feat that we continue to work on.
Randy, you said you started out with around seven young women who you were counseling at the beginning of this in early two thousands. I don't even personally have an idea of the scope of the number of women and young women were talking about. Has that number grown in terms of your circle of clients, and do you even have a concept of how many young women were talking about who were abused by Jeffrey Epstein.
We're talking hundreds hundreds of women, so many still will not speak about it, so many are still suppressing between two thousand and eight and twenty and nineteen, after that that deal came out. Obviously, the victims were just distraught. They felt betrayed, they felt devalued, they felt like they didn't belong, They felt like the predators were more important than the victims. So a number of them hid for
many years. They wanted to put everything behind them, They wanted to completely just completely wipe this from their memory and from their experiences. Well, in the psychological world, we know that when we suppress something, it stays inside. It doesn't just go away, right, so that will build. In twenty nineteen, when the FBI started contacting the survivors, going to their homes, going to their work, this was like, Okay,
there's nowhere for me to escape anymore. So everything that they were attempting to suppress, everything came back, not only the trauma and the experiences with Jeffrey, but also the guilt and shame that they've been suppressing as well. So it was starting back again. A number of girls that I saw in two thousand and eight were able to find me again in twenty and nineteen, so I was able to continue or go back to treating them again,
and I'm still doing so. But yes, a large number of survivors came wanting treatment and wanting to get help, wanting to understand what happened over these past, you know, so many years. Some girls didn't even know that he was released after the Sweetheart Deal. When they were approaching in twenty nineteen, they were shocked to hear that he was out of prison the entire time, so that skyrocketed their fear.
Yeah, I mean in twenty fifteen, I spoke with then Virginia Roberts, Virginia Jeffrey and she was in hiding. She went to Australia. She talked about this harrowing decision with her then husband to get out and to hide in Australia as far away as she could, or she thought from Jeffrey Epstein and to see how her life ended just a few months ago is beyond heartbreaking. I am curious just in terms of the mental health struggles that these young women are facing. People kind of say, oh,
you know they might poopoo. You see what happened to Virginia, And I know this is what you're fighting for and fighting against, certainly to not have that be the fate of so many of these other young girls. But how serious is their mental health at this point? How serious are their conditions? And are you concerned that? I mean, it rises to that level where, yes, for young women and now grown women are they don't want to live with what they've experienced.
Virginia Kufre's death hit many survivors in a way that they did not expect. It was devastating, It was tragic to them, and many questions from them were is this my path? Is this something do I need to start looking over my shoulder, Is this what's going to happen? And also on the other side of it, we need to continue Virginia's legacy. Virginia spoke up for so many of the survivors when nobody else had a voice, and many girls don't want that legacy to end with Virginia.
They want her voice to continue. So there's a lot of inner conflict going on with many. They want to use their voice. They're angry, They're angry about what's going on right now. They feel again as if the government is letting them down. But on the other side of that too, what happens if I do speak up? What
are the consequences? And throughout the years some who have spoken over the past years have the public has not been very nice and that's been a trauma in and of it themselves, not believing them they knew what they were doing. They just were doing it for the money. Oh did the money run out? Is that why they want to talk now? People don't understand what process they went through and that they're still going through. I've been
doing this for forty years. I have never seen a case go on as long as this.
Where does the closure in those cases, Does it come only after justice through our justice system or what? Or is it time? What have you found in your forty years is the thing. I'm sure it can be different for everybody that eventually or certainly is necessary to be able to turn that corner, to have to be on the right path to healing.
Well, it's hard.
In any cases that I have worked with that have gone to trial, which have been hundreds of them. Justice doesn't come from a guilty verdict. Justice doesn't come from a twenty year to life sentence, okay, Because once that once the sentence, once they've given the sentence, once they've gone to prison, what do the victims have left now to deal with?
Right? They have the trauma left to deal with.
Because before, when you're going through court, when you know, when you're meeting with your attorneys, when you're going through depositions and whatnot, that's a good distraction. You don't feel like it's a good distraction, but it's a distraction that's your control. You have some element of control over your trauma by fighting these cases, whether it be in court, whether it be in public. However, closure can only come from within. And the problem with this case is number one.
I don't know if they believe in justice at this point right. I was asking an interview last week about hope and do they have hope that if these records are released, that this will finally be it? And what I explained is they have been holding on to hope since the beginning, since they stop going to Jeffrey okay, and they will never give up hope. However, the one thing that has been.
Lost is trust.
Who can they trust now, law enforcement, the government, the legal system.
Who do they trust?
Because each element who has supposed to be there for them, who is supposed to advocate for them, let them down. So while there's hope, they're still clinging onto who do I trust?
Who do I talk to?
Who's going to help me heal and go through this journey?
Randy, I'm curious. We keep hearing about more records being released, more documents being released, whether or not there's a list, and it's exhausting because it's unclear, like I don't even know what's left out there to be released, what it is that maybe a record of something that could be a smoking gun. Have your clients explained to you and about what that is that still needs to get out that hasn't been let out yet.
They want transparency as to what happened since two what happened in two thousand and eight, and why wasn't anybody held the accountable. Then that's the transparency that they want. A list. Okay, what's a list? You know they want to know that people who want to be held accountable. Yes, but also it's coming at a cost at this point.
You know, they're.
Dangling these these these files. Yes, we're going to release the files. Well, we can't release the files. Well, you know, it's been an ongoing battle of is it going to happen or not? So I feel like this is just another way to make the survivors wait and have no control over the next step of this process, because are they talking about it as Okay, this is going to happen, this is what I want? Is it because it's a distraction for other people? They don't know anymore?
You've mentioned in everybody lists lists, Epstein client List, client list. It was a big focus last week as well. At least have made a lot of headlines when several of the survivors said we're going to compile our own lists confidentially. Now on that matter, I'm asking you and all the work you have done, have they certainly shared names with you that most of us in the public would certainly recognize if we heard them. As far as other people out there who have victimized them.
The individuals, the survivors that I have worked with from two thousand and seven up until the present time, have been abused by Jeffrey Epstein. The accountability that they want are from the adults that were in his mansion, his accountant, you know, the people who were helping this whole process, who knew and didn't do anything about it, the legal
team from two thousand and eight. Those are the people that they want to see accountability because they're the ones who were watching these young girls get abused day after day, over and over and over again. So that's the transparency they're looking for.
That makes a lot of sense. And in terms of the people who knew what was going on, and the other person who many victims say also personally physically abuse them was Gallaine Maxwell. And to have what's been happening in the news, and certainly with her being moved to this gentler kinder prison camp in Texas without ever being told none of these victims were even given a say
or heads up about what was happening. Can you talk a little bit about how this back and forth and the possibility that Galeane Maxwell could even be pardoned by Trump, what that has been like, what your clients have talked to you about, how that has impacted their mental health and what they want to see happen with her specifically.
This has greatly impacted their mental health. When Glaine was sentenced to twenty years, they felt that, okay, we have some element of justice here, even if it's a little bit. It was what Glaine represented. You know, Jeffrey did not, you know, he took his life. He took the easy way out. So all they had.
Left was Glaine.
And when they started talking about, you know, more interviews with Gleane, when they moved her anger, frustration, betrayal. Again we talk about the hope that was hope and now you can see how it's starting to slip through their fingers. Yet again, for what reason? Glaine is a liar? Glaine was charged with perjury. Why are we going to believe
anything that this woman said? And if she had all of this information that they think she does, I would assume she would have brought that up during her trial. Why would she hold on to it until now? That doesn't make sense. So this is another tear injustice. When it comes to how the survivors feel.
Well, Randy, how can there be any Like you said, they don't trust the process, There is no hope. What possibly could the government do or anybody say. Even if they say, hey, here are the keys to the fileroom, knock yourselves out, even then there will be an assumption that, well, they probably remove some stuff before they let us in, Like can there anything, can anything? What are they asking for now that could possibly make them feel like it's transparent?
Alex Acosta being held accountable is probably one of the biggest hopes right now, and keep it. Putting Blaine where she belongs in a maximum security prison. We're talking about a sexual predator. The only two sexual predators I know that have had an easy experience in the legal system, Jeffrey.
Epstein and Glaine Maxwell.
So it's been really hard to come up with something to hold on to right now.
Besides, you know, it's a waiting game, Randy.
As much as your clients, and I'm sure you too, given your intense just personal it has to be personal relationship with these young women and seeing what they've been through. Can you even describe what it feels like to have this be so politicized, you know, it seems as though I can only imagine it doesn't feel like it's for the victims. It's about the victims. It truly is about making a political name for yourself, about saving some sort
of political face in a mob that wants answers. It's almost as if they're using this for political gain, or at least deflecting so that they aren't politically injured in any way. But it is not about the thig that it hasn't seemed like it it's been at all from the beginning.
That's correct, That's correct, and it is devastating to so many of them that our president is the one calling it a hoax. The president. You know, there were planes that were flying over the girls when they were speaking at the rally and the press conference. That was another hit for them. You know, they're devastated to see that here they are going to Washington and taking this risk to speak out and.
They're actors in a hoax.
So that was just it was very hurtful and especially individuals who had voted for the president because they thought that he would release these files and it would be done.
And was that a form of grooming you know?
One questions if that was to get voters. I don't know, but it's starting to feel that way from them right now.
If there were we kind of been hitting on this, you've hinted, but if there were a list of demands right now that the victims you've worked with, or just generally speaking of the president of the government, what would those demands right now look like?
Old people accountable, who knew about it, who didn't do something about it, or who fostered it. That is what's important right now, and then put it to rest. These women need to heal in peace, and it's constantly disrupted, you know. And some women came forward to speak for the first time because that's how angry they are. That's
how angry they are. How many conspiracy theories are going on out there about Epstein and Glee Maxwell, how many AI stories, how many lies you know, and they're watching it and it's like, these are our lives, Like this is my life, and here you are making up all of these stories about my life. So some got to
the point where enough is enough. But this is how, this is how, this is what it took instead of part of their therapeutic healing process that had to be we need to do it now because they're not telling the truth. I don't think that's very fair to survivors now.
And some of the survivors are actually asking for a meeting with President Trump. Are some of you clients a part of that group? And what do they want to
hear from him? And what are they hoping to gain from him given all of the I don't know how they feel about the headlines, and we've known this for a long time, the connections between Trump and Epstein, and of course they had a falling out at a certain point, but even some of the pictures, some of the comments he's made about Virginia just give me a sense of where they stand on that meeting and what they're hoping to achieve.
I mean, their goal is to have Trump understand that what happened to them is real. I mean, let's start with the basics here. You know, first belief, because there seems to be disbelief and it's heartbreaking. It's heartbreaking to think that the leader of this country is focused more on protecting the individuals in his party rather than all of these women that continue to suffer. Some have never
uttered the words of their story up until today. Still there are women coming out each and every day now reaching out to me after all of this is going on, wanting to support other survivors. They call themselves their soul sisters. They want to be there and support their soul sisters because they feel that the people who should be supporting them aren't. So it's a scary idea of having that meeting.
As a therapist, seeing what they're going through. I would be a little nervous with that meeting because of the lack of compassion and empathy that they have been welcomed, especially in Washington.
Well, you said nervous. It almost sounds like as someone who has treated these victims, you almost sound like you would lean against them sitting in a room and talking to President Trump.
I would be concerned. I would absolutely be concerned about it. I would make sure I would be somewhere close by. I would be because unfortunately I don't trust. I don't trust that there's going to be that compassion because where has it been?
And Randy, it's interesting We talked a little bit before we came on the podcast about where you were last week when so many of those victims did decide to put their names and faces and tell part of their story to the world. You said you stayed back in Florida because why.
I stayed back in Florida Because I wanted them to have a home base with me. What I mean by that is they can reach out to me at any time. So I was in contact with many of the survivors throughout the past days because it was extremely overwhelming, it was mentally exhausting. So I made sure that I was here for them as that support, as that anchor, while working with the other their survivors who were having a hard time with you know, the headlines of after they
spoke the comments. So there was so much going on, you know, with the victims that didn't speak and the ones that did. So I wanted to make sure that I was there for each of them and all of them at that time. And I felt that being in Washington, I would be pulled into many directions and that wouldn't be a good thing for them at the time.
Ernie, can you tell us one as journalists, can you tell all of us as citizens, what we are getting wrong? What would you absolutely like us to be doing better in how we're having conversations publicly about Epstein about the victims, to be more mindful of those survivors and what they're going through. I know we cover it, and sometimes we covered we get caught up in a headline and you don't remember the humanity and there's a victim in the
middle of it. But I'm just curious to you seeing cover and whether it's social media and whether it's CNN, what do you see that we continue to get wrong in our conversation about sexual abuse victims, in particular this Epstein case.
People think that when we'll speak with young girls, when young girls are groomed and sexually exploited, that they can come and go, that they knew what they were doing, they knew how to get out of it, And that is not the way it works. Grooming is a very dangerous weapon because there's no force involved.
So because they are no.
Force and people don't understand what grooming is, they just assume that, well, you can just get out, and it's a form of brainwashing. Right, So how are young girls supposed to know that Jeffrey was brainwashing them, manipulating them to get his needs met rather than well, he was building this relationship because he cared. So it really starts there.
They did not know what they were getting into, and just because they went back does not mean they were looking to be abused, that it was all about the money. It was about the weapon, which was his relationship with each girl.
That's the first thing. The second thing.
These are human beings that have been going through this from the ages of thirteen through their late thirties. Believe them, this happened. Everything that you hear about what Epstein did.
And more is true.
And it is not easy for them to open social media. I mean, you know, in this day and age, what our phones are our lives, right. We don't just turn on the TV anymore. We wake up to our phone, We go to sleep to our phone. We go to the bathroom with our phone. We drive, God forbid, we drive with our phones, I mean our phone our concert We like to go to comedy shows, don't we.
We'd like to go to.
Concerts everywhere that they go, everywhere that they look, they are reminded of Jeffrey Epstein. Saturday Night Live skits stand up comedians, different TV shows, on top of the media, making up stories, saying horrible things about them, judging them, judging how they heal, judging what they look like, judging that they received. You know, settlements. Settlements did not heal any wounds. Let's be clear. Settlements help them get the treatment that they so desperately need and deserve.
Wow, it's been said, and I'm just curious with your perspective. You said you've been doing this for forty years. I can't imagine when you heard one story after another and they each sounded so similar and yet sadly, so effective and so powerful. Would you say that Jeffrey Epstein was perhaps the most prolific pedophile in this country's history. I mean, have you ever seen anything like.
This, not like this now, and not with such ongoing exposure. Even after death. Jeffrey Epstein has been sensationalized, Jeffrey Epstein has been celebritized in many ways, and it is just tragic that this is how we treat predators and this is how we treat survivors.
It's tragic.
Well, Randy, I'm sure you hopefully just feel the impact you're having on these women and these young women who are counting on you to get through this and this will be with them forever. But thank goodness, you're in their lives, and we certainly appreciate you giving us some perspective as to what they're going through. And the tragedy isn't it's so deeply personal for each one of these girls.
It isn't just a headline. And we know that intellectually, but to hear you actually talk about what these girls and now women are living with and living through with all of these continuing headlines, we just appreciate your insight and your perspective and the work that you do each and every day. That can't be easy to not take that home with you.
Thank you so much.
It's so important that we have these conversations, so important.
Thank you.
Thank you for supporting and having the compassion that they so desperately need.
Well, thank you, Randy. We hope you have a wonderful day and we appreciate your time. As always. We hope you'll check back in with us, and we hope they'll be better news, perhaps in the weeks and maybe even years to come.
That sounds wonderful. Thank you so much.