Hey there, folks, Welcome to a special episode of Amy and TJ, a breaking news episode. I guess robes many people have seen by now the tragedy in DC. A plane crash is one thing. The way this happened, a collision with an army helicopter. Everybody presumed dead, but we are getting some new details. Got a lot today, yes, from the first responders, but we got a lot from President Trump today as well.
Yes, so I know that a lot of folks were expecting to hear what we know. Of course, the condolences going out to the sixty seven people, and the families and the friends and the folks who are mourning them, all those condolences, but we weren't expecting to hear from the president Already some fingerpointing going on and fingerpointing in a direction that I don't think many people were anticipating.
We heard President Trump today at his press conference squarely put the blame on DEI policies within the FAA, saying that the air traffic controllers that we did not have our best based on Obama and Biden administration policies that we had. We didn't have the brightest, we didn't have the folks that we needed to at the HELM or at least within that agency to make sure that our planes and our passengers are safe. In fact, he said that the policies jeopardized the safety of Americans.
This was, I guess, strange surprising. It was maybe somebody could argue in line, maybe shouldn't have been the surprise. Given Donald Trump, he has signed executive orders taking DEI out of pretty much all the federal government, and so this has been We're not surprised that he would go after die policies. It was a little stunning that he did it the first time. We were hearing from the President of the United States, after a damn national tragedy that is still playing out on.
Television connected dots that no one was expecting him to within I mean fifteen hours of the tragedy actually happening before NTSB investigators actually were able to go through and they're still going through the wreckage and the evidence that they're trying to recover from the Potomac, and.
We should say, and we are, I guess we fall into it a little bit here, and it's unfortunate, but it has to be talked about, and I think some folks pointed out in the press room, like their bodies are still being recovered and blame is being placed on people. I mean, you talked about DEI policies. We would just talk to someone a short time ago. We don't know the race of anybody involved, no, no of any pilot, of any air traffic control.
We don't have names of anyone involved, any of the victims who died at this point as of this recording. And so to go ahead and place blame was it was shocking. I think that is a word that a lot of folks.
Used, and so I want to be clear not putting words in the president's mouth. How many of you might have seen it by now, but we want to be clear on what the president said. Again, he walked into the briefing room himself and made some opening statements, but he then took questions from the media. There. He was asked directly if he is saying that diversity policies are to blame for the crash. This is a direct quote,
it just could have been. He was asked again later, how can you be sure that DEI is responsible and played a role in the crash? His answer, because I have common sense. So this set off a different conversation when we should have been having the only conversation, which is I guess sending love to those families, to the US military that lost as well. But instead another group of folks felt attacked by the President in this moment.
You know, and typically when we have national tragedies, and this was certainly one. This is an aviation tragedy that we haven't seen in this country in decades. So this sort of event is shocking, it's traumatizing, but oftentimes it's unifying because we come together as a nation. We come together as a country and figure out what went wrong and what went right, and how to make sure that we massively limit or make sure this never happens again.
And that is typically the direction we see our leaders take us in these moments, and we went in a completely different direction unexpectedly today when we heard from President Trump we.
Must have only the highest standards for those who work in our aviation system. I changed the Obama standards from very mediocre at best to extraordinary. You remember that only the highest aptitude have to be the highest intellect and psychologically superior people were allowed to qualify for air traffic controllers.
That was not so prior to getting there. When I arrived in twenty sixteen, I made that change very early on because I always felt this was a job and other jobs too, but this was a job that had to be superior intelligence and we didn't really have that, and we had it. And then when I left office and Biden took over, he changed them back to lower
than ever before. I put safety first. Obama, Biden and the Democrats put policy first, and they put politics at a level that nobody's ever seen because this was the lowest level.
Yeah, of course we can have a DII debate the country should Why not have that debate? And that's fine, just the moment to have it through a lot of people off guard today, but the focus will remain on this strategy for quite some time. They have told us they expect the search. They went from a search and rescue to simply a recovery effort that happened earlier in the day today, which is Thursday, but the work will
continue for several days. We have been talking to several folks to get their expertise, and also one in particular that you're going to hear from was a witness. A witness robes I think. He says he watched his planes take off and land from that airport all the time, but of course this was something he never thought he'd see before.
Yeah, he has a rooftop in Arlington. He said he can walk to Bake a national airport, and so he was out there. It was a little bit of a warmer night last night on Thursday night, excuse me, Wednesday night, and he happened to see the unthinkable. It was an unimaginable moment to witness something like that.
So you're going to hear our conversation with him. You'll also hear our conversation with two pilots. One of them happens to be part of an organization that does work to promote diversity and is very much involved in DEI. You'll hear his reaction to what he heard the president say, and also explain why diversity is a positive and has never he made his point several times, never been attributed to being the cause of any.
Any incident, any accident, and certainly not a tragedy on this scale.
And then finally you'll hear from another pilot that we talked to and Ropes he said he's actually going to change some of his practices because of what happened in this stretchy.
Yeah, he said that he is going to when he lands his planes, he's going to behave differently after what happened and after what he's heard from other pilots. And certainly as we get more information from the wreckage, the black boxes, they haven't been found yet as of this recording, there will be I'm sure more changes, not only that pilots individually will make, but certainly policies within this country.
But we thank you for coming to the podcast. We thank you for listening, and so we are going to now send you to the interviews with those three men we just described. Joining us now is Tennessee Garvey. He is a pilot at United Airlines First Officer where he flies the Boeing seven seven seventies. Also the chairman of the Organization of Black Aerospace Professionals.
Tennessee.
Thank you for being with us today.
Oh, thank you, Amy, Thanks TJ for having me. It's a pleasure being here.
I know you have been following the events, the tragic events of the last twenty four hours, and I'm sure you watched and followed President Trump's press conference this afternoon I'll first ask you just what your impressions, what your reactions were to what he had to say.
Well, Kendily, my mouth was a jar. You know, it was just the events that happened. First and foremost, by heart goes out to the families because you know, there are six to seven lives lost and you know the impact of that can never ever be nicated. So you know, our heart just goes to the families, you know, with the Trump with President Trump, you know talking about you know DEI, you know, being the cause or being a
contributing factor. There's really nothing further from the truth. You know, over the years, we've enjoyed a very robust safety culture here within the United States, especial when it comes on to aviation. And you know, just like with any incident or accident, you know there's a process to you know, you know, with the investigation and you know to try
to find that cause. But you know, to come on the forefront with no evidence and with nothing you know to reference, it's it's very dishearten disheartening.
Can you explain to folks, And let's get it straight, most of us are not looking at the qualifications where air traffic controllers on a daily basis, right, so we're we're not familiar. But what can you explain what he's he's talking about in suggesting because there was a change in criteria for applicants that I think you can help
me on the years. I know you know it twenty fourteen, twenty sixteen, But can you help folks and explain what the president was talking about when he says the standards were changed and his words lowered, but there's a change in the standards for the applicants to become air traffic controllers.
What I do know is that you know, when it comes to, you know, becoming under traffic controller, the attrition rate TJ is is very high. So you know there's so many hands that you know, they raise their hands there they apply and to go through the process. But the process is such that you know, not everyone makes it through. It's just one of those errors where you know it's the training program is very rigorous, and you know, the reality is, you know, only the best of the
best make it through to the very end. So irrespective of you know, your gender, your race, your religion, creed, the process, the program doesn't factor any of that in, so you still all have to apply, you still have to be you know, you still have to meet the qualifications required, and the program is just designed such that only the best of the best will actually make it through to the very end.
So what was your reaction then? And Trump said that the FAA has prioritized individuals with disabilities and other marginalized groups overqualified candidates, which therefore jeopardized the safety of everyone who flies.
It was, it was very disappointing. Amy. So, you know, going back again to the training programs, So right now under the Biden administration, there's there's a conscientious effort to ensure that there are no barriers that existed for those that mean when to pursue a career within aviation airspace.
And you know, Trump has since recented that, you know, via an executive order, but you know, there's so many barriers that tend to exist within aviation airspace, going back to even when our organization was founded, which is back in seventy six. You know, when the Tuskegee Airmen were transitioning out of you know, World War Two, only one to Skigee airmen actually made it to commercial aviation, and that was simply because our barriers that existed back then.
Organization like ours is really geared towards workforce development, and our focus is to create an access to the underrepresented communities. So our aviation industry is very robust. But however, there's still a lack of representation in certain areas of aviation and aerospace, and organizations like US is really just geared towards workforce development and for those that may have, you know, the desire to pursecure within aviation aerospace, we're trying to
create opportunities and provide access. We're not lowering to standards. We're not lowering to barriers. Again, you know, to my earlier point. If anything, anytime there's an incident, accident within this industry, we're all about safety. We're all about learning from it and you know, put in processes or policies in place to help us be safer on the back end, which I know we will do with this with this event.
Yeah.
But then I say, you said you aren't lowering standards, But how do you convent the public of that when the President of the United States stands up and says, this accident is deadly accident may have happened because we lowered standards letting too many diverse folks in. That's that's directly almost attributing this crash is deadly crash to the diverse group of folks getting opportunities.
So I would my response to that TJ is, well, let's look at it twofold. Let's first look at look at it statistically. Statistically, you know, polots out look like myself represent only four percent of commercial pilots flying within the industry. So out of every hundred pilots, only four of us look like myself. When you talk about black African women, props beelw one percent. So there is the numbers. So you know, in terms of you know, diversity impact
and safety, there's really no correlation. And then secondly, let's look at historical data. There hasn't been any accident or any incident that can and be attributed to DEI. We've never seen it as a contributing factor. We've never seen it as you know, the soul cause it's just never happened. So to say, you know, diverse individuals are compromised in safety, that is not true. It's not statistically true, it's not
historically true. What I will say is when it comes to organization like ours, our ethos is inspiring excellence, even though our hashtag is oh about excellence. So for those that want to pursue a current aviation aerospace, we're here to support you, we're here to mint you through all the way, and we're all about workforce development, but at every step of the way, we're all about inspiring excellence.
So whenever you see somebody who looks like myself, you know, whether they're in air traffic controller or they're a pilot, just know that they're they've been trained to the very highest level of safety possible because we're all about excellence.
Tennessee, it was interesting hearing you very clearly state there is never been any sort of accident or incident aviation accident or incident attributed to any sort of DEI policy. So when you heard the president, and we know that those policies are now under fire with all of the executive orders he's signed, but still, when you heard the president today, were you expecting him to go there? Oh?
Absolutely not. Again, anytime there is a major event where there's loss of life involved, the first thoughts go to are their survivors, what happened and how can we learn from this? Nowhere in that does anyone ever think about, you know, skin color was the cause. And to hear you know, what's being you know, basically presented, which I really think is just you know, furthering an agenda is to say that DEI you know, is a cause. And it's again it's just very disheartening because for those of
us that were very passionate about aviation and aviation safety. Again, you know, they were still recovering bodies from the river when he said that, So it really it just left a lot of us just we were just stunned.
But how do you combat no matter what facts you have, Tennessee, he has a much bigger microphone than you do, how do you combat now what will now be a continued swelling of a perception. I would argue, of this idea that DEI is bad, and now then we'll be able to point to DEI is so bad that it's deadly. How are you messaging wise, just going to go about convincing the public that that ain't the truth.
So you make a great point, teacher, in the sense that DEI, from my perspective, has been weaponized, and you know it's not for us to you know, to fight that fight in the sense that you know, I'm all about you know, a lot of our works, you know, show for itself. So our focus is workforce development, and our focus is create an opportunity, is for the underrepresented, and our focus will always be, you know, providing access.
So the narrative might be, hey, DEI is bad, but our goal is to still, you know, stay true to our mission and still you know, for those that look like myself and our minorities within the space, we are going to work to make their dreams become careers, irrespective of the noise with d I. Because again, statistically, there's nothing to suggest that DEI is bad having somebody diverse. If anything, what we've seen and learned in corporate culture is d I is good. The companies that thrive throughout
because they enjoy diverse workforce. So our goal is not to go into a fight or you know, to try to change the narrative of what DEI is. We're all about just our works and we're all about creating access and created opportunities. But underneath all of that, it's all about inspiring excellence.
Tennessee, I know your first response and all of ours has been as well. Is just this gutted, awful feeling of the loss of life and just how horrific so many Americans are feeling right now as they're learning the news and realizing that they're never going to see their loved ones again. That is the focus. Does it feel somewhat surreal to be already defending a program that you so passionately have made your life's work and to imagine
that there's already finger pointing at this point. I'm just curious where your head is given all that we actually typically would be focused on today, at this early hour, at this early point in the tragedy.
So, you know, like Oshrian earlier with my colleagues, I've been in this space for twenty two years, never have seen anything like this, especially in terms of the response to an accident like that. So you know, to pivot from you know, are there any survivors to where we're now talking DEI. It hasn't even been twenty four hours.
It's it's it's it's just stunning. It's it's stunning, and it's just, you know, it's it's unfortunately that we're even in this space even having this conversation, because you know, first and foremost, you know the lives of those involved, especially the military. You know, they're just a routine training mission, and you know here we have a major loss of life event. The focus should always be on that d I. I don't even know who the names of the pilots are.
So to even say DEI is a thing? How can we even you know, bring that into the conversation when they have any released photos of the cruise so you know, whether it's the air traffic controller or whether it's the pilots. You know, it's like we're trying to spend a narrative, but we don't, like, do we know if they're you know, what their backgrounds are? I don't, so I find it very discoursion that again we would even try to say, hey, deis involve when they're still overcovering to bodies.
Tennesse, you can I ask you one last and this on your expertise as a pilot, can you help those of us understand a little better a pilot trying to land there at Reagan on exactly the flight path he's supposed to be on and lined up with that on that final approach, it's dark, it's pitch black. How much can a pilot see going at that speed. Do you do you have any time to react? I suppose or are you completely dependent on that air traffic controller to tell you where you need to be.
So I really try not to quarterback. You know these things I have flown into the airport, I've phoned that exact approach. So to your question of you know, what can you see at night? So from understanding, they're clared for the visual approach to runway one and then they would later ask if they could circle the land on runway three three. It's very routine thing, nothing abnormal about it. And you know the pilots, you know, they're in a position where they could safely make that manever to land
on you know, runway three three. So usually at night, you know, it's it's a shared responsibility with the pilot with air traffic to making sure that space, that airspace is safe. One thing I will say is that air within the Potomac River it's a very busy airspace. You do have flights taken off the land and in Reagan, but at the same time it's a very heavily trafficked area. When it comes on to low level flying helicopters an aircraft because there's a V four quarter that exists right
within that area. So it's it's a shared responsibility. And you know, I know with crews, we have systems on board that help us see and avoid other aircraft. But as you get closer to the ground, whenever you come into land, that system becomes inhibited. So you know, it may have you know, alerted the crew to our traffic, but you know, if they're at a montraaltitude, would have given them a resolution advisory, so whether to climb or
to pitch. But you know, because they're so low into the ground where we're talking four hundred feet, that system at that point would normally be inhibited. But again going back to the tapes, and you know, somewhere along the liner is a loss of visual separation. It's a very you know, the the approach that they were shooting again, it's a it's a published procedure. There is nothing abnormal, but you know, somewhere along the liner's loss of separation.
So there's a lot to learn because the focus is really to not let this happen once again, which again it's so unfortunate that instead of focusing on that, you know, we're having conversations that I wish, you know, we really shouldn't be having, especially so soon.
Well we Tennessee. We so appreciate your experience and expertise on all of this today. So thank you so much for joining us on the podcast. We really appreciate it.
Now, thank you for the timing, and again thank you for just seeing reasing this issue. Thank you.
All right, Thanks brother, thank you so much. Sorry for the circumstances, but really good to talk to you. Good to meet youa man.
Oh it's a pleasure. And Amy, thanks again for having me. You take care of him, you wealthy.
Roy Bess is joining us now on the podcast. He was actually on his rooftop in Arlington so close to the airport he actually says he can walk to it, but unfortunately he saw the tragedy. The disaster happened right in front of his eyes. Roy, thank you for being with us today. We appreciate it. How are you holding up after witnessing what you saw?
Pretty well? Just shocked.
I'm still in shock about what's going on and just feel bad, you know for the people on the plane, the family and friends.
Right now, now, what did you see take us through?
What what was it around eight.
Forty five, I guess at night take us through right right. So I was on the rooftop.
We're out there, a lot of washing planes take off and land on a daily basis.
And it's been really cold out here, probably the last.
Month or so, and yesterday it was probably in the fifties, so it was a little.
Nicer night compared to how the weather was.
I was talking with one of my neighbors and I heard a loud sound. I turned to the left because the airport was facing to the side of me the way I was standing at that point, So I turned to the left and I saw a big ball of fire, kind of explosion, and then we saw just the breed going down to the to the river there, and that's when my neighbor she howled out, oh my god, on my god, that's a plane.
Wow.
You go out there, you watch Lane's land and take off. It's beautiful to witness. I can't even imagine seeing that, and it's just a horrific thing to witness. Can you tell me what what you were feeling? Did you immediately realize what you were seeing, what you were hearing? What did it sound like?
It was very loud and again I was just in shock at first. You know, you're kind of thinking, okay, you're buy the airport, but you don't. You don't think you're going to see anything happen like that. So I don't know, maybe for a split second, it was like kind of a denial, Okay, did we just see what we thought we saw? And then one of my uh once it was a girl I was speaking to and it was another guy.
He was like, yeah, it was playing this plane.
And then the other guy was like, yeah, I think something else hit the plane. And because I wasn't able to see the helicopter when everything was falling, it just seemed like, yeah, a couple of pieces go side left and right, but it just felt like it was just one piece coming down the river.
So it was just but after that we realized what happened. What happened?
Well, I was gonna ask Roy, did you know pretty immediately that you were witnessing a major disaster?
Oh? Definitely, definitely.
Last night when I was looking at the news and everything, I just know I just new, excuse me, from what I saw that there was probably gonna be no chance of survivors.
Wow.
Wow, How how long did you did you keep watching how quickly did emergency crews arrive on the scene, Just watching the aftermath and the response to something that catastrophic, did you did you stay out on the roof to watch?
Yeah, we stayed on the rooftop.
I want to say the response from the airport was almost immediate. You just saw different cars and trucks going out on a floor on tarmac, and then I want to say, not even It's hard to say.
Everything was just going so fast. Minutes ten minutes. You just saw emergency.
Response coming from all different directions. Because where I'm located here in Arlton, I'm sure y'all have been to DC a lot.
Crystal City.
I'm right here where Amazon new headquarters is by the block Away.
Everything is close. So they were just coming from highways, roads everywhere.
Roy give folks an idea. We heard several people talk about, I don't anybody spend time in DC knows just how busy that air traffic is up and down the Potomac. Give us an idea from your perspective, just how high traffic is it. Usually you're there, of course with the planes, but also a lot of helicopters, a lot of military a lot of VIP traffic. How busy is it in the air Usually, I.
Would say very busy, It's not It's normal for you to see helicopters, whether you're on the rooftop, on a bike or on a car, sea rooftop constantly, whether it be police helicopters, coastcard helicopters, and also the military helicopters, and those you see probably frequently because.
Like I said, I'm right here in Crystal City.
I'm only a minute or two or a few blocks away from the Pentagon and I'm only about two minutes away from DC, so it's almost.
Like a taxi service. So yeah, they're back and forth constantly.
Wow.
And so you're watching all of this Eventually you said you went in and you watched the news coverage to see what was actually happening. What was that like knowing you had witnessed it with your own eyes and then actually hearing who was on that plane and just the level of the tragedy itself when you just saw the scope of it on the news.
Just I wanted to say, once I started seeing everything unravel on the news, kind of reality set in to what happened. You know, when things first happen. You hear all different types of things and then you hear it was a jet. Any life is terrible to be lost, but you know you're a Jedi first. Okay, maybe it was five or seven or eight people, you know, which is bad in itself, but then you realize it was a slightly bigger plane and it ended up being sixty seven people, and that's just crazy.
I think within the last.
Year or so, we've actually had maybe two kind of close calls at d c A with planes.
But you never think it's going to actually happen though.
Yeah, you fly in and out of that airport, Roy, Yes.
As you know, I'm close to Dulles Bwy. But I'm literally walking distance from National So even if the price is higher, I just right.
Yeah.
So how do you or what are your thoughts now about flying in and out? I know it's very very early, my man, but just the idea or the thought of flying in and out of that airport or DC and all that busy airspace.
Now, I'm still.
Pretty confident and the aviation and planes and everything.
Uh like I would get on a plane tomorrow. Yeah, I don't. I don't feel anything way about it.
Something you know went terribly wrong that shouldn't have went wrong.
And you see the.
Videos and then you hear there was some communications. I just have no idea how it happened.
Wow, you were there to see it happen. And you know, Roy, we appreciate you telling us what you saw from your vantage point. Wasn't something you wanted to happen, It wasn't something you expected to happen. But we really appreciate you filling in what it was like to witness it, to see it. And thank you for joining us on the podcast.
Are you welcome.
I just want to say prayers to everyone that was on a plane and their family and friends as well.
Thank you so much, Roy, thank you, thank you. And joining us now is Bobby Dutton. He is a licensed commercial pilot and a flight instructor. He's also has a platform called Think Like a Pilot, taking what he's learned in the cockpit and applying it to life. So Bobby, thank you for being with us. Sorry, it's under these circumstances.
This is.
A tragedy we have not seen in this country for decades.
Yeah, it's a big one.
I'm happy to be here, but yeah, I wish it was under better circumstances.
So I know that everyone is trying to figure out what happened, and we're most likely not going to get an answer right away, investigators doing what they do with the NTSB there on the scene.
But what have you seen?
What have you heard?
Do you have any thoughts about what you think is a pilot could have happened in this guy there.
Over the poet?
Yeah, I mean, well, of course, all the pilot forums are going crazy this morning with speculation and rumors and cockpit recordings and things like that.
Most of it's constructive, obviously at the bottom.
At the end of the day, the bottom line is we want to see what we can do, what we can learn, what we can change to, of course, minimize the chances of this thing happening. And the reality is ninety nine point nine nine percent of the time everybody gets where they're going safely, and it's great, and it's it's terrible that the unlikely point one percent is something really horrible like this. I did listen to all the
cockpit recordings and all that. The thing that I noticed was was obviously the tragedy part is what everybody's talking about, But what really was impressive to me was the efficiency of the response. And that's where this pilot thinking really kicks. In. The way aviators communicate and coordinate and prioritize things is pretty insane.
And when you think.
About that, the fact that the controller was obviously listening and watching all the traffic in the air at the time, and you heard one pilot say did you see that? Have you all heard heard this recording already? And you could hear the emotion in the response, because of course, this is terrifying. There's a fireball off the end of a runway. This looks serious, this is scary. We've already got our hands full, but oh my gosh, something, something needs to happen to help do the best we can.
And yes, you heard that emotion because this was a terrifying moment. But the fact that that controller was springing into action as quickly as she did was pretty amazing. She paused all the ground traffic, she said, if.
You're on the ground, in an airplane or anything.
Else, stop, Getting you where you need to go is not the priority anymore. She talked to fire control, told him exactly where to go. She said, half a mile off the end of the runway about right in the middle of the river, and so before anything even hit the water, there was probably help on the way, which there's something to be said for how impressive that is
that people could react. Because I don't know about you, but when scary things happened to me that life or death serious, I freeze, like I don't want to react or be part of that reality. And part of what we train for as pilots is we do need to act, and we need act fast because it could make a real difference, and I think we saw a lot of that in the in the aftermath immediately following this horrifying event.
Bobby, we don't know you, but I assume people in your circle, your friends and family would call you the optimists.
Because of all this tragedy.
I know we will find answers to what went wrong, but it immediately jumped out at you what went right? And that's worth noting as well. You did mention Because we don't have access to these message boards and all these group chats of you pilots, so I know there's a lot of chatter. Give us an idea in those chats, what is kind of the leading theory or conversation about what happened over the Potomac.
Sure.
Well, let me preface this by saying I am not an NTSB investigator. Sources on Facebook chats do need to be verified before anyone takes them too seriously. That being said, I mean any airport with international flights anywhere in Boston and New York are Class B restricted controlled airspace, which means you need to be talking to someone to even enter in the first place. You need to be really
clear on where you're going and what you're doing. On top of that, in d C, they've got obviously lots of sensitive restrictions around political sites and people and operations and military stuff on top of that, and there's a lot a lot going on there. So frankly, it's a wonder that people can operate efficiently and safely in these situations and environments in general. On top of that, it's at night, which obviously you can't.
See much visually.
And then on top of that, when you're landing in a plane that weighs tens of thousands of pounds, that's a controlled descent into the ground, so you are not very nimble, you can't see much, and so to change the direction or speed of an object that large and heavy is no easy feet and so there's a lot of you know, trust and coordination going on. Where if I'm in Class B airspace and the controller tells me where to go, that's where I'm going.
Period.
I can't I can't be expected to be looking for helicopters out the window while dealing with this normal landing on top of that. And that's that's scary, because putting your trust in other people who are looking at radars and controlling lots of different airplanes, that's that's a lot. And again usually it works great, but what it sounds like is in these situations sometimes a controller will say,
do you see this other airplane? They're two o'clock three thousand feet away, and you look around, and you're supposed to wait till you see it, of course, and then say, yeah, I see them. Once you do that, they might say avoid them, or go behind them, or land after them, so they can put some of that control right back
onto your plate. And what I learned from this, of course, watching the consequences if visual separation doesn't work, if a controller tells me that, especially if I was flying tomorrow and this were to happen. I would be really careful about what I tell them I can see and if I'm not one thousand percent positive i am clear on which airplane I'm supposed to be avoiding. I'm not gonna I'm not gonna tell them. Yeah, I should be able to find them and avoid them. I'm gonna say, listen,
I'm sorry, I don't see them. I'm not positive. So let's let's if I need to climb or turn around or come back in fifteen minutes, you tell me what I need to do to stay safe, because we obviously need to all trust each other and use all this crazy information and moving parts to execute this stuff safely.
Yeah, Bobby, you started with the odds that in ninety nine point nine nine percent of all of these takeoffs and landings you have zero problems. I'm curious when it comes to the odds to think, as you're describing this massive plane coming in in a controlled descent, with the air traffic controller telling you you're on the right path, what are the chances that at the exact same moment that helicopter came into the exact same place as that aircraft.
I mean, it's mind blowing to me. That those two events could come together at the exact wrong time.
It's crazy and it's horrible. And when people see those maps of all the planes that are active over the US right now, and there's just thousands of them, it's a miracle. They're all avoiding each other most of the time. But think about that map you're looking at. It's two dimensional, and on top of the two D map, we've got
tens of thousands of vertical feet too, separating them. So not only were those two aircraft in the unfortunate same latitude and longitude, but also the same altitude, and that, like you said, is just a horrible coincidence.
Yeah, okay, that was my question. Just a horrible coincidence. We're trying to understand. This had to be a the pilots are at that time of night, you're totally dependent on what the air traffic controller tells you. I want to go back to what you said. They say, hey, do you see so and so on, You look out you in and say, yeah, I see it, and the air traffic controller kind of moves on. I'm sure you've seen the video where there seems to be a second plane.
It is there. Okay, that's speculative. I don't want to go there, but there is a second plane. Even in seeing the videos, is watching it on TVs, I hear his video of the crash. I was for the first couple of times looking at the wrong plane and the wrong ball of light in the air because there was a second plane. Have you seen what I'm talking about.
I'm not positive of the exact clip you're suggesting, but there were definitely at least a handful of other planes during working on a landing or departing. And that's that's normal, which is nuts. So within five miles of the airport there were probably a dozen planes, all already cleared for landing, all lined up in the right order.
But Bobby the u all's practices are to generally the air traffic controller trust you. You say, hey, do you see it? You look out you in and say, yeah, I see it, and that's kind of the end of it. There's no further verification or anything.
Yeah, once you get that landing clearance, you have the approval to use the runway.
Wow, all that's an all clear right.
Well yeah, and then again again not to I don't want to speculate too much, but what I believe happened is there's tons of people and traffic and aircrafts, then there's a military operation happening at the same time. Military does need to talk to the same tower and the same air traffic if they're in that same class B air space, so everyone should be on the same frequency. But what it sounds like is the helicopter was flying
and they said do you see this other plane? And things were happening really fast in that moment, and I didn't hear helicopter pilots say yes, I see that plane.
What do you need me to do about that?
I just heard them then say, maintain visual separation, which, if I haven't confirmed I saw that plane, it's too much to ask me as a pilot to maintain separation of something I haven't confirmed I see.
So yeah, And from when we heard that happening with the helicopter and the air traffic control, I believe it was thirteen seconds later, right, So, speaking of time, I'm also curious if the plane, if the American Airlines plane was only four hundred feet in altitude and was clearly over the Potomac, I mean, what were they thirty seconds one minute from landing? How close was that plane from actually hitting the ground.
Oh yeah, less than thirty seconds from landing, which is hitting the ground in a good way. But yeah, there's nothing. I don't think there's any way they saw anything. They were focused on that landing. The runway was half a mile ahead. Everything was looking good, and then all of a sudden, it wasn't.
Do we hear right from a pilot? I think earlier were saying a lot of the aircraft avoidance systems, those automated systems that of spose to alert you at that altitude, They're not going to help you.
There's a lot going on. They're going to be warning you about terrain. They're going to say there's ground, which there should be.
When I've sat close enough to the to the cockpit, I can hear that. Sometimes I can hear that's a ground. Oh no, are they supposed to be hearing that? Yeah, I have actually heard that when we're landing, and.
I mean a normal landing. You know, I'm licensed as a flight instructor. I mean you see student pilots learning to land. It's it's a very difficult thing to teach because a good landing is, like I said, a controlled flight into the ground, and the one hardwired rule we all have as humans is good flying means don't ever fly into the ground, and sometimes you have to learn how to do that properly.
Bobby with I know, obviously there are going to be so many lessons learned the very difficult way through this tragedy. But is there something that you're hoping will change. I know a lot of people have pointed to the traffic, the air traffic, and the obstacles as you mentioned so many no fly zones around the DC area, but specific to DCA, that there are some real changes that need to be made. As a pilot, what would you like to see happen?
Yeah, I mean all the airspace management stuff is above my pay grade. But I know in the next week I'll get lots more notifications on pilot groups I'm in, I'll get a note from the place I rent airplanes for fun.
I'll hear all kinds of stuff.
And my own vigilant is just going to say, next time I'm landing, I'm gonna be twice as aware of every inch of sky I can see, and I'm going to be paying really close attention to the radio traffic. And you know what if I hear something on the radio that says, oh, there's some other operation going on. I think it's below me in a place I can't see very clearly. I might even ask the tower like, hey, is are we good? Like would it be helpful for
me to come back in a minute. Obviously that's tough to do, and you've got lots of passengers trying to get on the ground safely, but get to get the landing done properly is definitely the priority we need to adjust to boost boost safety from that ninety nine point nine to nine percent as close as we possibly can to one hundred.
Well, we do pilots how their favorites when it comes to airports, like I love flying into that one. I hate flying into that one cause it's tricky. That one's annoying. Do you all have that? And I guess where to do what a DCA rank for pifficulty?
I have never personally flown in there, and just looking at the chart, I did that to get ready for this conversation.
And even on a normal day when.
Everything's fine, even if the President's not in town, the quietest day there is in DC, it is all read all restriction and if you drill down into what these restrictions are about.
It's it's scary.
I did a flight once down the Hudson Corridor, New York, which was challenged to see.
Okay, this is this there's a lot going on. I got JFK and Laguardi and Teterborough.
And lots of helicopters, lots of helicopters. But I did this training. I want to use this knowledge. I want to understand it. And I can remember just how busy that frequency was, and it's I remember reading the briefings that says you can be at this altitude, you can be from here to hear, but if you go this way twenty feet, we reserve the right to use lethal force to remove them from that space.
They will shoot your airplane.
Yes, and so like for somebody trying to have a learning flight, you know, that's pretty high stakes.
So it's it's a lot.
And any international airport is going to be really intense and really restricted and really controlled.
And this is a good thing.
But when you've got military operations, politics, restricted airspace, nighttime, heavy airplane, no visibility, it's it's a lot. So pilots love their jobs, but it can be it can be a lot mentally, especially at the end of a flight. You know they've been they've been going hard for a while, and it's it's hard to stay sharp and make it all work. But obviously everybody does the best they can, and there's a lot of training and procedures to make it work.
Now we've been hearing that about air traffic controllers as well, and it makes perfect sense. I just wanted to ask you one last question, Bobby. You know, I was even saying I have taken for granted, how walking onto a plane, I just assume it's all going to be good. I haven't had fear, I haven't had any trepidation. But certainly people are going to feel that way now, people who've traveled today, people who have flights scheduled for the next
days or weeks to come. What do you say to folks, how do you feel about the current status of this country's ability to land plane safely?
Yeah, I think if you're nervous about flying, listen to the pilots.
Listen to how they sound.
Even in that recording, like I said, they weren't. They weren't out of control, they weren't too emotional. They immediately said Okay, what can I do given the situation. Yes, there was just a fireball in the sky, and yes this looks serious, but let's start acting right now.
And that, to me is very impressive.
And even the way when you hear a captain on a flight come over the intercom, like, think about how they sound. They don't sound stressed, where all of us on the ground we sound overwhelmed and stressed all the time. We're always I've got fifty text message unread, I've got sixty emails, I'm worried about this meeting tomorrow. I'm overwhelmed even on a normal day. And I think a lot of humans on the ground feel like that these days.
And yet pilots are the one group that whenever you hear them, they sound so in control that we like to make fun of them as sounding bored. You know, they say, ladies and gentlemen, we're going to be flying at thirty eight thousand feet today. We're going to Miami. It's three thousand miles. Whether it's seventy degrees, it's a little windy, should be.
Fine, have a great flight.
I got this Like that kind of relaxation is not a a it's not put on for show. They've done this flight, they've trained an insane amount for everything that could go right and everything that could go wrong in the next couple hours, and they are relaxed, even though they're working on something that's much more high stakes than all this drama that's stressing us out as normal people. So put some faith in that process and the people that get through the filters to be qualified to be
in that cockpit. They're there to take care of you, and they know what they're doing.
Well, Pilot Bobby Dutton, we really appreciate your perspective and your expertise. It certainly helped us understand what happened today and what happened last night actually, and just the reaction that's going on today. So Bobby, thank you so much for your time today.
Thank you for having me