Is Chivalry Dead?

Hey, that folks in this episode, is chivalry dead? If it's not, should it be? But if chivalry is dead, should we resurrect it right here, right now in this episode of Amy and TJ. And with that, welcome to this episode of Amy and TJ Robes. I will start with the question we will get We're gonna deep dive into this. But generally speaking, if you're asked the question, Robock, is chivalry dead? What is your answer?

I would say yes, by and large, yes, especially here in New York City. I know, having lived in the South, in the Midwest, and living up north, there are big differences in how men and women relate and act with and toward.

One of them.

Wait minute, So you're saying it's not dead.

In the South, not as much.

It's dying maybe with the younger generations, but it's not dead.

Is it dead in New York City?

An?

What?

That is a strong indictment of the men of New York. Y'all, hear what she's saying about you, That chivalry is dead in New York. Yes, I have said, I'm looking at your pha You're not I'm not playing. I'm not playing.

No, I've lived here for more than twenty years and it's still shocking to me at how dead it is.

Let's give some context here. When we're generally talking about chivalry, what are we talking about.

We are talking about basic things, okay.

And I'm not talking we want to make sure we're not talking about chivalry and taking care of a woman like a sugar daddy type. That ain't chivalry. We're talking about gestures that often that don't always have to be romantic gesture. You can be chivalrous to your mother or some stranger on the street.

And also, let us preface it with this.

I am of a certain generation and age where it's maybe it could go fifty to fifty. Not everyone appreciates chivalry. Some people are offended by it. I actually appreciate it. But we're talking about when a man opens a door for you, a car door, a restaurant door. You know, trying you've got bags, you're juggling things, you're trying to get into a Dwayne read someone opens the door for you.

Someone who offers to pay for the meal.

There's a big one.

Yes, it is.

Walks on the outside. So a man to be chivalrous will walk on the side of the street where the traffic is so as to to be basically a barrier for anything from splashing mud to a swerving car. Offers a woman his jacket if you're cold, May I offer you your jacket, my jacket for you. That's a big one when it's cold outside.

Lets women get off and on the.

Elevator first, or the subway first, or just into a room first, giving up your seat on the subway, a crowded bus, a crowded train, stuff correct carry her bags for her. So I've got these heavy shopping bags or a heavy offering to take that. Also when you're getting on a plane, offering to help put or get those heavy bags up in the overheart head compartment. To me, those are all like things that I would consider chivalry.

Or are you saying, though you listed a bunch of things that sound like common sense, common courtesy, I should say you're telling me the men of New York, generally speaking, don't do those things.

They are not common No, And in fact, I remember specifically juggling strollers, babies and biorns being pregnant, and the only people who did any of those things for me were other women.

Okay, but is that a New York thing? To where we get conditioned here in New York too, And I will speak on this in a second. Men here are conditioned to woman doesn't want to be bothered. She can do her thing, I know, not to bother. She doesn't need my help, she doesn't want my help. So they're conditioned now to not do those things. Is that possible?

That's entirely possible.

But I would also say that I think it's just not valued as much here. I don't think it even would be received as well here.

Wow, Okay, this is all coming out. We're talking about it now. You and I got into a conversation, a debate. I would even argue, we're talking about Trump's choice for Defense Secretary, Hexseth, who was a former Fox News host. A lot of controversy about him for a whole bunch of reasons, but one of the things that was talked about is in him saying that men or women should

Yes, So this is a big question mark, and I think people and women have varying responses to that. And I think I came up where I was the only woman among my friend group in the nineties who were getting married. Who chose, and this is when I was living in the South, chose not to take my husband's last name. Why.

I didn't want to lose part of who I was.

I would you though, just because you lose a last name.

Because I prided myself on being Amy Roboch and so I wanted to stay Amy Robick. And just because I went into partnership or into a marriage with someone else didn't mean that I had to assume someone else's last name or identity for us to be a partnership.

So I felt strongly about that. Also, I also just.

Felt like it was part of being someone's property. Back in the day, it was though women didn't have rights. Women couldn't vote, they couldn't own property, they didn't have a say in a lot of things. They couldn't enter into a contract. So I just felt like all of that, for all of those reasons, I didn't want to make it that deep. I just really from the time I was eleven years old, I remember thinking, I'm not going to change my name.

Why would I change my name?

And so that was maybe the big feminist gesture that I chose.

To enact when I was in my early twenties.

And when I did that, I also struggled because then I was told by people, Well, if you're going to take that track and you're going to not take your husband's last name, if you're going to be the breadwinner, if you're going to ask that your family move for your job, well then you can't also assume or ask or want a man to open a door for you.

Well, some things here, because you talk about you taking somebody's last name and you being a breadwinner should not be connected. You could you could whether the breadwinner or not should not be a part of this conversation.

Is it I agree with you, But I was told by many people and men included, that if I was going to take that track, that I couldn't then also have this expectation that somebody was going to take care of me in another gesture, in another way, that if I was going down that road, then I needed to go down that road by myself and take care of myself and have zero expectations that a man should do anything above and beyond for me that I could technically do it for myself.

Again, we mud eat the waters way earlier than I thought we were going to here.

I am telling you I wasn't. I was actually a little wounded by that. But I accepted it and said, Okay, what by the thought that I couldn't, that I couldn't be a strong, powerful, independent woman and at the same time appreciate like and want a man to also do some of those I think very beautiful or give me some of those beautiful gestures that I appreciate, And.

That is where it would make me feel loved.

But that is where people will say, you can't have it both ways. Okay, do you think you can can a strong, powerful woman who is pushing for equality, who is pushing to for that for us all to see women as absolute equals. Man. Woman, you can do it, I can do it. I don't need you to pay for my meal. I don't need you to open my door. I don't need your coat, don't I don't need anything. Can you not accept those gestures but at the same time be promoting strength, equality and capability of women.

I believe you can.

But it took me a while to get there because I felt like I was asking for too much, because I was told I was asking for too much, that I couldn't have it both ways.

I try you asking for to door.

It doesn't seem like a stretch.

I agree with you.

I agree with you, but I think that you know, in a way, for some men, it might be threatening or frustrating, like, oh, oh, you're not going to stay home, You're not going to take a beta role.

You're not. But ye, at the same time, you want me to do this for you and that.

For you, And I just feel like I kind of assumed I shouldn't so, But I truly believe I not every woman. Probably a lot of women won't agree with me, but I do believe there are differences in genders for the most part, we do have things that biologically we are probably not in all cases, but in a lot of cases more predisposed to be good at. It doesn't take away from my ability to put my own bag up, or to carry my own bag, or to open my own door, to have a man do it for me.

Okay, you are the problem Robes, according to many women, because in wanting that and accepting that what you're doing are perpetuating the notion of benevolent sexism. Benevolent sexism as some of you may be familiar, We weren't. We had to do a little bit of a deeper dive. But this is the idea of benevolent sexism. Yes, you might have good intentions, Yes you may be well meaning, but what you are doing is reinforcing traditional gender roles and

Well, I don't expect it, I can say that, but I appreciate it.

I thought you were going to jump on the part of course you're not holding women down.

I thought that was the and I, well, yes, so here's the deal.

I actually feel like it, maybe because I've lived enough life and I have had wonderful opportunities that other women who've paved the way have helped at least me get to where I've gotten in my life professionally, but I have nothing to prove like. I know I can do those things, but it doesn't mean that I don't appreciate someone else coming in and helping me. It makes I do feel loved. I do feel protected. Is it wrong

Even though I can take care of myself and I have been taken care of myself.

Hey, yes, different opinions on these things. But I asked the question of about how the question of how does a woman feel? How does everybody listening? How does it make you feel when a man, maybe he's a stranger, maybe it's somebody you're dating opens a door for you. I love it. Feel does it make you feel when you're on the first or second or whatever date and the guy pays? How does that make you feel?

I appreciate it?

Okay. How you feel when the guy walks on the outside the sidewalk that you're on? I love it, opens the car door, give you a jacket when he's cold. I love that when you're cold, Right, all of that, you love all of that. So on the other side of that, how do you feel when a man doesn't open the door? How do you feel when a man doesn't offer to pay for the meal? How do you feel when a guy doesn't pull out his umbrella and make sure you're under it when it's raining. How do

No?

I don't, especially I think after having, like I said, I lived in New York City, I think initially maybe I did feel that a little bit.

You've gotten trained not to expect it.

Yes, that's unfortunate, Yes I have.

And you look, my dad did all of those things, so it might be different with your experience growing up. But my dad did those things for me and I appreciated it. And he also taught me how to balance my own checkbook. He also taught me how to pay my own taxes. He, you know, he and my mom you know, was a part of those conversations as well. But so I do think that I think both things can exist, and it doesn't mean anything negative. I think it's how we view it and how we look at it.

When you do.

All right, Well, that expectation is always a key here, but I have obviously, I'm born raised in the South, my mother father, both of them from the Delta, Arkansas. From the moment, and we talked about this, from the moment I was physically able, my mother did not open another door for herself. Right. She would walk up to a store, the front door of a store, and just stand there and look at me. You're forgetting something. I was three years old when I was physically able to

But the good news is we're perfect together on this because you were trained to do it, and I am so appreciative of you doing it because it's been lacking for two decades.

This is one of the areas that we really really are vibing.

I really don't know any better, So I am. I am fascinated by this conversation, which is going to continue. So for a lot of us, we don't even know where this comes from. This idea of women and children first, right, this idea that for some reason we're supposed to make sure women go first, or they are the first to get off the ship. But we gotta save the women first. This is an idea that experts say, or at least the historian say, goes back to the eighteen hundreds on

You were?

But I also offered and a couple of times tried to venmo you and that didn't go well, We're going to go well, And you would always just say it all evens out in the end, and look, I actually I don't think anybody likes to feel like they owe somebody something. But we had enough of a friendship where I guess eventually now maybe it has even out, but I.

Some it hasn't.

But I'm okay with that.

No, we ahead shot.

But I think some some women don't appreciate the feeling that somehow now they owe something, and that's something that we put on ourselves. And so I would just ask, you know, I would never demonize somebody who is willing to pay.

Especially when there's zero expects.

Now, if there's an expectation attached to paying for it, that is a whole other issue. But that was never the case. You're the only man I know in my life that I can recall who has always consistently insisted on paying no matter what.

You can. You can go ask any friend of mine, amy female friend of mine. This has been the case forever we go out, and I just it's an automatic. The guy pays. Now, a lot of people hear that, Okay, that's ridiculous if your friends, and that's fine. But in my mind and my mindset, the way I've always been trained, that's what should happen. But these days, how is that view these days for people when they go out, when they first date, second date, third date? Who if the

Celia and Andy are here, and I can only base this off of some of the dating shows I've been watching.

It's She's that was different. But I think she is an outlier.

But Celia, I'll ask you, like, what do you think about who pays for what on dates?

I think it definitely depends on the longevity of the relationship. I think if it's a first date, you kind of reach for your like you reach in your purse like you're about to pay, Like you know, I'm not grabbing anything.

But you're hoping that he's gonna pay.

Yeah, I'm just pretending like I'm going to but I'm not.

For everybody listening, Solia, we are in line. This is exactly the way a date should go. Really, we don't expect you to pay. Just that little gesture that you're making an effort, just a little lunge towards your purse a little bit, just a little bit, and we look at that and go, Okay, she's she's game. She's a good one. I got I got a good one here. We have no problem paying that little thing. That's exactly how a date should go.

Yeah, you gotta pretend exactly it.

It's about the expectations.

If you think that the girl is expecting you to pay, you feel completely differently about paying than just saying this is what I want to do, versus this is what she expects me.

See, this is me. I think every woman should expect me to pay. But I don't need her to sit there with her arms folded when the check comes. Right, that's what I'm saying. I don't need her to give an attitude of you're gonna get that way. No, No, it's okay, we're told, But still I am. I feel like I am perpetuating this negative idea of gender roles. At least I'm told that, right. I don't feel that necessarily, But everything I hear and read and all, my goodness

I've watched you get scolded.

I've watched you get scolded by women who are upset that you refer to them as ma'am, that you are using polite terminology with the door. And I will admit we talked about when we were friends. I was still in that mindset because I was I was.

Told I can't have it all. I can't have it both ways.

So you would see me struggling with the heavy bag to go put up in the overhead compartment when we were traveling for work, and you'd say, let me get that robes and I'd say, no, no, no, no, I've got it.

Okay, go back. This is before we traveled together and we were working, right, Yes, we traveled together a lot when we were working. Yes, And we get on the plane, we're boarding together, and what do you always did? We usually sit next to each other, sit together, but gotta put that bag in the overhead, that heavy bag in the overhead.

Yes, and so I will get on my tippy toes, I will grunt, I will push, I will do what it takes to like somehow ling it up there. And so now TJ looks at me, he goes, who's a big girl?

No, yeah, understand, who's a big girl?

In front of everybody?

I think I gave you two go's at it on a flight and you said, no, I got I got I got it. I'm seeing you struggle. I'm standing literally right next to you. You don't want me to help you with your bag? Okay? So now here we are, two years into our relationship. We fly together all the time. Now I refuse to help you put your bag in the overhead. And when we travel, we used okay, we

Oh?

Good job? And this goes on. So she starts laughing, and now she's struggling with the bag even more. She's waiting, and I keep it going to you go almost you almost got who's a big girl?

Yes?

I think Actually we have even had a cabin of folks clap after you do it because I was egging them on.

I believe a couple another man has actually come in and helped because struggling.

I didn't feel any kind of way about it. Knock yourself out, dude, But.

To that point, I actually reflected about why did I resist. I've even s I seen my twenty one year old daughter resist having someone hold a bag for her when she's got a heavy bag. She's five to two, she's a little gal. And it's pride and it's somehow, Well, if I let someone help me, I'm acknowledging I'm weaker. And here's the deal. I've gotten to point out, babe, where I am and would be.

But I get it.

If you're still harboring.

Any ill, well, totally fine, and like laughing at myself for somehow thinking I'm proving something to the world or to myself that I'm strong, and that is actually silly. And so I think when we all start feeling offended or somehow saying when you're doing something kind that it's offensive, or when you're doing something to be helpful that I'm

But do you understand why some women might yes, wait, wait a minute, you think I need help? Do you see why I was like that?

I mean, I had that mindset on a few certain random things including putting my bag in the overhead and I and now, if I really do sit back and am honest with myself, that's my problem that somehow that's something that I am assigning to myself that no one is actually intending. I think so many times this is about misunderstanding and what the intentions are. And if you can just accept a gift, it's hard to accept help. It is hard to accept help, but sometimes I do

I am just kidding.

It depends on the subject, and it depends on how much sleep we've each got. And I knew you were, but I was actually trying to give an honest answer. But I think sometimes and not Look, these are generalizations. Not all women in man are but but generally speaking, yes, women are physically inferior APPS And I tell my daughters this when they're walking the streets of New York City. Don't get this bravado about yourself that you're just as strong as men when it comes to personal safety and

And I know what you meant, and and it sounds bad. I know what you mean by physically inferior. I don't want anybody to jump on that and.

Try to drink.

But it's it's it's it's provable, it's it's fat, it's physiologically okay, a fact that just men generally are built taller, stronger. It's just that's just a fact. So that's what you're saying. Generally speaking, Obviously there are plenty of women out there with my ass and Andy's ass over it. That's not what we're talking about. But generally speaking to your point of there are times you don't want your daughters to be traveling in certain places you I've heard you say this,

Both of my daughters initially got offended, and I said to them this is a problem if you can't acknowledge where you are in the world and the fact that sometimes it is helpful for your physical safety to be with men and not just women, and certainly not by yourself, whereas if a man was traveling by himself my brother, I would be far less concerned of what I'm saying, like my mom.

My mom was, and my dad were way.

More concerned with me walking back from a party by myself on campus versus my brother. And I think sometimes we get so caught up in equality that we aren't acknowledged things that actually could make a difference in your personal safement.

I'm laughing at the idea of my parents at some point saying to me, when I'm walking somewhere or traveling, you got some other guys with you. Obviously they do.

So we like there are things that we just need to acknowledge, and I think it's okay. And I even had to get into my own headspace as we were talking about this as to why I have acted certain ways, and it's all something that I think us women feel like we have to prove something, and I think a lot of times if we just acknowledge what is and accept what is, and also just feel good and strong

I believe?

So let me ask this, what should every guy do and what should every woman expect? What I'm talking about the absolute bottom basement base that every woman should expect from a guy, and that the guy should absolutely do. And I go back to holding open a door that seems I mean, it doesn't matter if it's the person you're dating, it doesn't matter if it's your mama, it's a stranger on the street, if a woman is walking,

The only thing I could say that's absolute is respect, and that it's just to respect where that person is. And it might not be some blanket thing where all women, you know, expect it, but we all can expect respect so wherever we are, whatever we feel, and maybe not get personally offended if a woman says thank you, I'd rather open my own door by all means, you know.

And I just think if we can just respect where we all are.

But also I just think it's important as a woman to ask yourself why you feel the way you feel and way and understand maybe why a man would feel the way he feels.

And that both are okay, Yeah.

It is okay, I think.

So this goes back to and again I'll say we're going to mention this, but the idea of women and children first. This idea obviously it's understandable with children, right, they can't oftentimes protect themselves. This goes back to a ship that went down in eighteen fifty two off the

I thought you were going to say this Titanic it was it predates, it predates.

So but this was the idea that kind of got rolling. To this day, we still think women and children first. We still think women and children. And why do we think that, because these are the folks that need to be protected first in society. This came up again with the conflict in Gaza, where so many hostages were there women and children arguing should be released. Well, that woman there is healthier than this eighty year old guy, right,

Just he's very chivalrous with my mom.

And I saw that as an example my whole life, and so to me it represented love. It didn't represent being put down or being marginalized or being considered less than it was about love. And so for me, it was about love and respect. And that might be the reason why that's the lens I view it with. But I got confused when I took on a different role in my life that I didn't see other women around me take on, which was, you know, to be the breadwinner, to be the person moving the family, to be the

I don't need a man.

Of course, Fine, that's great, But what's wrong with enjoying having someone show you a little bit of love?

And that's all it is. It's it really is love. And there are some things and I think getting up from the table when a woman gets up from the table is one thing. I don't see a lot. Actually I don't see any other guy in life do that, but.

It impressed the hell out of me when I saw you do it.

I was like, Wow, this guy is respect It felt like respect.

It's not it wasn't offensive, it was respectful.

I've done that before in my life. I've stood up you at a restaurant. You stand up when a woman leaves a table. Doesn't have to be your woman, just any woman leaves a table, And I say, your woman, by not this, she's a possession.

Okay, given, where's this conversation is gone?

I don't need to make that mistake. Andy, can we edit that out?

Please?

Take no, no, no, we know what you mean.

But any woman gets up from the table, and this is one that Chuck for the past twenty years almost you know, I've been out with Chuck plenty times. He I have been ripped by him for years because no other guy ever stands up. So if I stand up when a woman leaves the table and no other guy does, it makes the other guys look bad. So I have

Side of the street.

I have to switch the side up on with you, Witch purses because we're holding hands.

So, yeah, it's a little bit of a dance that happens.

But I do appreciate the gesture.

The car door is a big one.

Yeah, that's been That's been a huge change in my life, and I like it.

Yeah, guys, even if you are the one driving, you still go to the passenger side and you her in first.

It makes me feel loved.

It's just an autumn because I'm actually it's funny because I feel embarrassed saying it, because I again, I've been conditioned for so long to not want that, and I like it.

I'm just gonna admit it. I love it, and I want some more of it.

Well, I don't know any other way to be. And I can't remember the young lady's name that works the front of your building. I can't remember her name, but I'm saying I have at that door. I have been in standoffs with women at that door before because they were trying to tell me to come out. I said, nope, you come on. Hey, No, no, no, you come on. Nope, ma'am you first. And then you know what I end with. I say, nope, my mama wouldn't have it any other way. And when I say.

That, okay, yeah, they get it.

I'm not gonna win this guy over. But it is is just training. Mama thinks it's not anything I could take credit for. It's just it's just muscle memory for me.

I guess I should thank your mama. Well, thank you, thank you.

I'm a home So this is an interesting This is the last question I want to ask you. Does chivalry have to go away in order for us to eventually get to full gender quality.

I don't think so.

I don't believe so, because I think there are always going to be differences between the sexes, whether we like to admit them or not. And I think we can compliment one another. We don't have to be stereotypical and fingerpoint and make it.

A negative thing. Can be a positive thing.

You know. And I think we can help each other in a lot of ways. And I think that it doesn't keep any one of us down by accepting love, accepting respect, accepting help. And I think the two can coexist if we can all get in the right headspace.

Bumby lunch when we get out of here.

Sure, not a problem at all.

All right, folks, We appreciate you listening. As always. You can find us on official Instagram page at Amy and TJ Podcast. You can find us on our personal pages on Instagram as well. And yes, we'd appreciate you chiming in on this one respectfully.

In the spirit of love and respect, yes, we'd love to hear your two cents all right.

We also appreciate you listening, as always was a you. Next Game,