Hey there, folks, this episode of our podcast is going to be all about dignity, love and joy as we talk about death, we'll explain. Stay with us here, Welcome to this episode of Amy and TJ and Robes. I say that because we are going to be focusing on end of life, which is now. It scares the heck out of anybody to think about the end of your life,
and it's hard to plan for that. But there's an organization now that has been around for several years as trying to make this a part of life and not I guess as daunting of a task or a thought as most of us think it is.
Yeah, well, what do we do when we're afraid of something or we don't want to think about something. We ignore it. We don't plan for it, we don't talk about it, we don't discuss it. And yet when it happens, and it is something that is inevitable, we cannot escape death,
not on one of us. And yet somehow we don't talk about it and we don't plan for and you leave the burden behind for the people who love you, and you also don't take the opportunity to actually be a part of that planning and be a part of that understanding and it can be a loving, beautiful thing. But because it's scary and because we want to avoid it and we don't want to talk about it, we miss those moments that are there. And so yes, there is a group. There was an organization that's been around,
a nonprofit initiative that is focused. As you say, I love this making end of life part of life. That is such a concept that I don't think most people even think about or have even considered, and yet it's so important.
And the founder of the organization, doctor Joshana Ungerlighter, is going to be joining us here now she is on the podcast. But not just doctor Hungerlighter. We have with us also a name, a face, and a voice. I think Robes is familiar to a lot of people.
Yes, we have Yvette Nicole Brown. You know her love she has been I don't know. There are so many different television shows and movies. You've been a part of EVET, but I think most people know you from community and I love that you are now the voice of Coach robertson Inside Out Too, one of TJ's daughter's favorite movies. So but that's just I mean I could go on and on and on naming all of your.
Accolades that this is wild.
I am not kidding you.
I actually asked her ahead of time, can you please handle the intro to her? It's just too much, it's too much to try to get in there. But welcome, Welcome to you both. It's so good to have you both with us here on the podcast. Doctor Ungerler. How are you doing today?
I'm well, thank you, Thank you so much for having both of us and for having this conversation today, and thanks for having us.
Yes, yeah, And I wanted to ask you how did you get involved in this group? Because, as I mentioned, this isn't something that most people think about, and I think it's something most people don't want to think about.
Yeah, you know, I'm a giver. I lost my mom three years ago, as everyone knows. And then I'm also a caregiver, so end of life has been, you know, in the forefront of my mind for a while. And Shoshana, how do we ended up working together? Did you just see me in the caregiving space and go she might be cool to host this or how did how did we get together?
Exactly? We basically were like vet is incredible. She is the most dynamic person and has has walked this journey, and so we just felt like it was a perfect fit to have you come, you know, host last year and then you you smashed it, so we had to have you back this year for it for our event.
And I learned so much you guys about end of life.
And I mean, the thing that blew my wig back last year was death doulas because we've all heard of birth doulas. I heard for the first time about death doulas when I hosted last year, and there were just everybody that came up on the panel. It was just more information about conversations we don't want to have, but
we need to have. And the thing is, you have it once you figure out what you want, what you what you people want to do and all that, and then you never have to talk about it again, you know. So it's just important to know. We talk about birth, we talk about love and relationships and life and careers, we talk about everything except the one thing that's inevitable for all of us, we all getting out of here. So we need to have a conversation about end of life.
It's so interesting you just said that because right before we came on the podcast, I was talking in the studio and I said, death doula. I have never heard that term before. And to your point, yes, we've all heard about doula's there who helped women give birth. I didn't know that was a thing. Tell can doctor a ungerletter, can you tell us what a death doula actually even is and how prominent are they?
Yeah? Well, so a death doula is exactly the same thing that one does for the birthing process for new moms and families. But at the end of life, it's somebody who walks beside you in a non medical fashion and supports the the dying person, supports the family, other loved ones, and death dula's usually come you know, into play in the final weeks of life, but they can month's upstream if somebody's terminally ill get involved.
And even more than months upstream, I found they if you are just someone that wants to get your affairs in order, you could have a death dula even though
you're perfectly healthy. And you talk to that person and you say, well, when I pass away, I want all my jewelry laid out, and I want everybody to come and pick up a string of pearls or a ring as they celebrate me, or I want this playlist playing at my homegoing like you literally just get to plan it the way you would plan a wedding, you know, and then when the time comes, everything's already laid out and everybody knows what you want.
How exactly isn't this, doctor Aungerler, This is so much yes for the person who is passed it, but how critical is this for the people who are going to be left behind that this these conversations and this whole end well concept takes place.
Oh, it's it's huge. I mean it's it goes well beyond the person in the bed, and certainly as it relates to the legacy and the planning as far as getting your affairs in order, which is I just lost my dad, and so I can tell you having those conversations ahead of time makes all the difference in the world.
And then as you navigate the grief journey too once once your person is gone, I'm having a death duela, and thinking about these things ahead of time I think doesn't alleviate the grief, but makes it a little bit easier, you know, for everybody who.
If you found, is more resistant, and maybe a vet you can speak to your personal experience, who's more hesitant to have the conversation. Like you said, doctor Ungelier, is that person in the bed or is it the family who's who's most resistant?
Ends?
It depends too, because you know, I'm finding with my dad, who has dementia, he's it's I feel that he's declining, and I feel like it's you know, I hope I have him for another fifty seven years, but I don't know how long it will be. But I'm noticing that he's less concerned with anything here, you know what I mean, He's more concerned. He's I feel like the veil has been lifted, and he's seeing his mother and his father, and he seeing my mom, and so he's already transitioning,
I feel in a certain way. So it's definitely harder for those of us left here to imagine and to think about what the next step is for us, you know. And there's a lot of conversations that are difficult, but it only hurts when.
You don't have them. You gotta have them. You gotta have the tough ones.
And Doctor Underlighter, I'm curious because I know part of your mission is to, you say, challenge societal norms and to humanize the death experience, which is such an interesting way to put it. Is this something specific to our country? Do other countries? Do other people handle this better and weave it into the fabric of their lives in anticipation of what is inevitable? Or is this something that maybe perhaps universally we all avoid What would you say?
I would say it is pretty universal. I mean, there are some select communities and cultures that do talk about death or have really amazing ritual around end of life. But I would say as part of the modern and certainly the Western human experience, we tend to run away from these conversations. And how that plays out is that and I see this over and over, far too many people get care in and around the end of their lives that they don't want or maybe they don't understand,
and ultimately may not help them. So the more that we can be kind of talking about this, normalizing this, these discussions, or having a relationship to our own mortality, I think allows us to live better every day, but I think certainly allows us to have a better end of life experience when that time does come.
And.
You'll explain what it means. By the end of life experience, we assume it's a medical experience that we're exprounded by doctors, we're in hospice. You all are trying to shift that focus in that mindset. Explain that to us.
Yeah, well, it's not that it's a specific time or place. We sort of broaden out the end of life experience because it can be different things for many different people, depending on if you're facing a terminal diagnosis, if you're just thinking about advanced age, or they're certainly young people you know who who become ill and pass. But it's really a continuum of time. And again, it's not about saying like you gotta you should die at home in your own home, or you should do this or do this.
It's really a bigger conversation about what it is that the individual wants, and ending well is really about ensuring that people have the opportunity to live their lives fully up until the end, with dignity and purpose and connection to the things that really matter most to them. Whatever that looks like anything.
And I want to may I add also, the in Well symposium is not a sad experience.
It is a.
Joyous life affirming experience because we hear about end of life from every different direction, from so many different types of people. Some people are doing Tignotaro did a comedy bit about it. You know what I mean, like this, you're gonna get a this was last year. Well, you're gonna get it from every direction, and there will be
someone there that meets you where you are. If you're a scaredy cat, you know, if you're somebody that's like, let's go team in, well, like whatever, wherever you are on the spectrum, you're going to find someone there that's going to speak to exactly where you are, and you're going to learn a lot. One of the things I learned last year was I don't know the percentage and helped me doctor if I get this wrong. But when oncologists get a cancer diagnosis, this blew my wig back.
I didn't even have one on and it blew it back.
They choose if it's terminal, most of them, and I don't know what the percentage was, most of them choose hospice. Most of them do not choose the extraordinary measures, which says to me one that they understand that when you get the terminal. They know what the odds are. You know, we all wish for great things and there's miracles that happen all the time.
But they know the.
Statistics and they know what it looks like. And they also have decided how they want those last years, months, whatever to be, and they choose to go home and be with their families. So at the end of their life, knowing what they know, they want family time, you know what I mean. So, I mean it helped me think about what am I doing every day and how am I spending my time every day and what will be when it's time for me to face my going on to glory.
I want to spend it with family too.
But that's a decision I made from hearing them say how they do what they do, see what I mean. So you learn a lot of things at the symposium, A lot of things.
Yeah, And I was going to ask you, this is your second time hosting event, correct this year? I was just kind of reading what you all have planned. Can you give listeners an idea? This is taking place November twenty second in Los Angeles. What are people going to see and hear at the symposium this year? Because you've got some you've got some big names, and you've got some big acts coming on.
Yeah, I'm gonna I will say, from my perspective, You're gonna get great energy, a lot of empathy, a lot of compassion, and hopefully a lot of jokes.
That's what I'm bringing to the table.
Joshana, what are these other people bring into the table that you have lined up for everyone?
Yeah, well it's it's at the Skerball Cultural Center in la And of course we're going to have Yvette back as our as our host, and some other prominent advocates will Becoming ten By Locke, who wrote From Scratch, that amazing Netflix series. Award winning writer and war correspondent Sebastian Younger will be there. We're thrilled to have a special guest performance by Miguel Servantes from the Broadway show Hamilton,
and several other amazing surprise guests. But I would say that you know, this is not not a medically focused conversation. This is about, you know, the human experience, the spiritual, the social, sometimes the financial, the sort of thinking about end of life from a design perspective. I mean, it really runs the gamut and the audience is full of caregivers, of people who've been patients, of folks from the media, on policymakers, I mean, sort of faith, community leaders, you
name it. So it's really about creating an experience that anybody can really find accessible and meaningful.
Do you all think there's to be some policy changes, some governmental changes that would change the way we all that could help us at end of life, that could help the way we view end of life? What are we getting wrong at least from a government standpoint? Okay, sorry about that.
A lot of questions.
I can make a list too, because also because I'm in the caregiving space, there's a lot of things that we just don't have that we need.
I love that there's that.
Hopefully our future president just listed a policy about bringing Medicare home, which will help a lot of caregivers in the future, because when you think about I want to do hospice, your choices are not I'm going to do it at my house most of the time because you don't have the money to be able to do it there.
So this could change things. Yeah, there's a lot.
Of there's paid caregiving leave, you know, which is being is being talked about because folks who are caregivers. Family caregivers often like like you bet said, you know, can't can't go to work, and they're certainly not trained and how to be caregivers.
You know, community to take care of my dad, So sometimes you got to choose your loved one over your.
Job, you know.
And we also have a shortage of providers, right so the field of palliative care, of which hospice is part, this is these are nurses, doctors, social workers, chaplains. There aren't enough of them and so there's actually they're underpaid. And so there's a bill right now and it's been being looked at for the last ten years to increase spending, government spending to allow more trainees to come up through the system because we just don't have enough people to
take care of our aging population. So that's another huge one.
Did you really say ten years?
Oh yeah, just been sitting there swirling around in Congress and it's like a bill.
Yeah, oh wow, yes, taking it back old school. I love that school of rock, doctor Ungerler, you know, it's I don't and I don't know the exact numbers on this, but my brother is also an internist and he has talked about this end of life decisions and making choices to my parents and to my relatives who are getting older, and he said something like the like, the largest percentage of your healthcare cost over your entire lifetime, don't compare
it to the final two weeks of your life. It's like eighty percent of your health care costs are all in the last two weeks of your life. Is part of what you're trying to do to prevent that, so decisions can be made ahead of time, and oftentimes for life saving measures that that patient doesn't even necessarily want and is absolutely kind of throwing something at a situation that isn't going to change. What do you say to that.
No, I mean that's accurate. I would say that in general, that's sort of an average. Yes, we spend a massive amount of money on the final weeks of people's lives, and you know, to me, it's I'm not a healthcare economist.
You know, to me, the numbers are important, But the bigger issue, because I became a doctor to help people and help heal people, and that is that I really want to see people get care in and around the end of their lives that honors the life that they've lived is in line with their goals and their values.
And I think that first starts with incentivizing conversations early and often within the healthcare journey about your goals, especially if you're diagnosed with a life limiting illness, a terminal illness, say, And so I think to me, that's the biggest sort of issue that comes up for people is that we're just not having these conversations. Seventy percent of doctors that seven zero aren't trained and had to break bad news
to patients or talk about prognosis. So where does that leave us it, you know, in a system that values doing everything to keep people alive at all costs. That leaves us in a place where we're just on this you know, conveyor belt of aggressive invasive treatment, no matter how old you are, no matter how sick you are, and even if it won't help you very often. And so that's change.
And maybe if we had the conversations earlier and we accepted that it's inevitable, we wouldn't be so afraid of it and be chasing one more I need one more summer, you know what I'm saying.
Maybe if we talked about it early, enough and talk to our people and made our plans and we could just get busy living and then when we get the inevitable conversation we all get if it's a sickness that takes us out, you're not scrambling to get all the stuff in. And I'm trying to extend something that is we're not gonna make it everybody. We're not gonna make it out of your life. So everybody has an appointment, So listen, enjoy it.
Why you got it prepared for when it comes?
And in well, in well, I just want that one more summer in the Hamptons that.
Give me one more some of that. I'm sorry, talk to people, both of you. There are folks listening to us.
They are in their twenties, thirties, forties, fifties, sixties, seventies. Is there a different type of conversation based on the age or is it the same conversation and you just need to have it as early as possible. What are the recommendations you all have for the different age groups about what the conversation you should be having thing about the end of life?
Well, I will tell you how I feel about this, and then I want to hear your thoughts too, you know, as somebody who works in this space. From my perspective, it's never too early to start normalizing these kinds of conversations again, because I think it can allow you to live better every single day. Recognizing that time is short gets you to ask these questions about like, well, am I living my life with the kind of you know,
purpose and meaning that I want? Given that I don't know if tomorrow is promised right or is a given? So I think that that is a really you know,
beautiful framing. And then you know, as time goes on, if medical diagnoses develop, you know, it's a different kind of conversation that's a little more medically nuanced maybe, and it's also psychologically speaking, and the data support this that you know, we don't we can't predict our future selves, right or what would be acceptable to us in terms of quality of life, because at twenty that's probably different than what maybe would be the case at fifty or
maybe the case at ninety if we are facing you know, a terminal illness. So again, like I do, think it is important to kind of revisit this stuff throughout life and really talk to your loved ones and the people you care about about what matters, so that you know, God forbid, if you're in a situation where you can't advocate for yourself in a healthcare setting, you know you got somebody or few people on your team to be able to say, Hey, I know Evette, this is what
she would want in this situation. You know.
Yeah, And I'll add one of the greatest blessings my mother gave me and my brother is from the time we were children, we knew what she wanted. She would always say, I don't want anything heroic to keep me alive. If it's like a breathe in tube or whatever, I don't want it. She made it clear, I don't want a funeral because I don't want nobody. I don't want to provide any space with somebody to come put on a show. She said, if they love me and they care about me, they should show it while I'm alive.
So no funeral. So we knew all of this stuff our entire lives.
So when she when it was her moment and she they were bringing breathe tubes in and whatnot, me and my brother were like, she doesn't want that, and we confirmed it. Mommy, you don't want this. She said, I don't want it, and she asked to go into hospice. And when I tell you, she went into hospice and was gone in twelve hours.
She was like, I'm ready to go. I've seen what I need to see.
But we were able to give her the gift of that that dignified passing of her choosing because she had always told us from the time we were little, so there it's never too early to say I'd like to be cremated or I'd like to be and you can always amend it. If you decide you don't want to go into the furnace, you want to go in the ground, you go and tell somebody later, i'd like the ground.
Please. It's not this is not hard. It only seems hard, and it's silly because it's inevitable. Yeah, you know, it's funny.
You said she gave you that gift, but I mean you you you also gave her that gift like it. It's reciprocal because you now don't have to You and your brother didn't have to feel guilty. You all didn't have to feel conflicted. You all didn't have to be pulled in different directions because you knew because.
She told you.
So that's a that's a beautiful conversation because everybody wins in that situation.
Who can raise that?
You know, doctor Angelira and Ivette, I am almost embarrassed. I don't know what my parents want. Like, we haven't had this conversation.
Jay.
When we get off this zoom, you call your parents and you ask them what they want. Do they want to be buried or cremated? Do they want heroic efforts? You need to know this because I'm telling you, when you're fit, when a moment happens and you're looking at them in the bed, everything within you is going to be like extendment why yeah, And they may not want it.
And that's why they may not want it, because you don't want to let go.
You don't you know.
I will tell you it was only until I had my cancer diagnosis where I went in the night before my double mistectomy and I went in to a lawyer's office at seven pm at night and I begged him to stay open for me and I made my will that it took me getting a cancer diagnosis and going into major surgery and thinking, oh my god, I have to get my you know, my estate in order I have to let people know what I want to happen.
If worst case scenario ends up being reality and it took something dramatic like that, I've amended my will since then. But I will say I feel I feel relief knowing that my daughters aren't going to have to make tough decisions. TJ is not going to have to make tough decisions, My parents aren't going to have to make tough decisions because I have laid it all out. No, I don't want to be in the ocean.
The last place a cherry tree planted on top of my ashes. And how lovely and how lovely is that you didn't send the cherry tree.
And every time somebody walk by a cherry tree, whether it's you or not, they're going to think of you.
It's a beautiful gift to give to you. It's wonderful, wonderful, you know.
And in truth, we don't know what tomorrow is going to bring, right, you know, a diagnosis can happen at any time, you know, step.
Off the wrong curb and go on to glory. So listen, y'all be out there running. Y'all run too much and not know what you want, you be in them straights with your cars.
You better tell people what you want now, and I wish none of that on you, but you've got to tell people what you want.
You all, remember when I started this podcast episode by saying, dignity, love and joy, and I can't believe we are four of us have been sitting here, laughing and cutting up, and this whole conversation has been about death essentially.
Yeah, yep, but that brings in the opportunity to experience life, and it frees you up from thinking about it because you've already planned it, you've already said we you want it, and you don't have to dwell on it. I had so much fun googling you and falling in love with your love story, so I know tomorrow could be our last day. You gotta get busy living. So when's that wedding happening.
It's going to be before the years up. Nice, I'm mid planning. We're planning right now. So it's been a mad scramble to get everything done before the years up. But before twenty twenty five. Kids, if I live to see it, I will be missus Davis.
Where we going?
Listen, I'm trying to figure that out too, destination.
We just letting you know.
Perhaps I might, we don't know. We still when I say scrambling, I mean scrambling.
You know what congratulates your story is a if folks don't know it, google it. But it has been a beautiful story that certainly speaks to us in a lot of ways. And we'll have to tell you as well as we let you go. It was so cool this morning that we were getting ready at the house for my daughter, eleven year old daughter saving to go to school, and we were talking about you, and we said inside out too, and she said, well, who is it? And
we said your name. She was immediately able to identify coach Roberts from inside out too, and she said a hockey coach. I said, a black hockey coach. That was my response.
I haven't seen the movie myself.
She said, a black female hockey coach, female hockey coach.
But think about that. She if you she passed her on the street, she would have no idea about your face. But you have such an impact with your name, with your voice, with your character that even my eleven year old daughter this morning was like boom, boom, boom, and right on top of it. So I appreciate, very happy, I appreciate you being here, but I just want to
share that story. It just happened this morning, and how cool of an impact you are having and so much of what you're doing, and doctor Unger Lauder as well. To recruit event into that cause and to have you both here is really really a treat for us.
Thanks for having us. Yeah, thank you so much. Thank you.
You've got us thinking, I don't know how TJ wants to go, So we'll have that conversation afterwards. I'll be writing it.
Down as late as possible.
Today today, Thank you, ladies, and have a wonderful symposium. We love what you're doing and it's got us all thinking. I hope everyone listening is also making those notes in their head and wanting to have those conversations with their loved ones. It's so important and we just appreciate you being here on the podcast.
Thanks for having us.
Thank you so much for having us.
Theation, bad
Bcations, the patents,