Either everybody. In this episode, Robank and I reveal that we have been in couples counseling with two licensed therapists the past year and it hasn't cost us a dime. Also, whatever you think is the problem in your relationship, it's not really the problem. We're going to tell you what your problem is. And also, one of the foremost and visible relationship experts in the country does not believe you can fall in love. And with that, everybody, welcome to
this episode of Amy and TJ Robes. Falling in love? You with it, you're not with You believe it's possible.
I think you can fall in lust and then you grow.
In love, growing love, but not fall in love.
I think you fallen lust. I think that's true, and I think I think love comes with time and with really knowing someone. You don't really I don't think you can really love someone until you truly know someone and accept all of their faults so you can come with them.
So I assume love at first sight is not something.
You think is possible.
I think it's lust at first sight.
Okay, what is this is my fault? I set myself up every time I was talking to you about fall in love. You go back to this lust thing, and I have to hear about all this lustful relationship pastry you've had, you did it last time. Yeah, I've been in a lust of lot. Y'all remember, right, they're laughing,
they remember. But it's fascinating to hear that everybody. I think, generally speaking, you hear so many people talk about I fell in love and then I fell in love a couple of times, or I've been in love a few times, but that a relationship expert doesn't believe that's the case is fascinating to hear, and we're talking about it. We've talked about it a lot on this on our podcast. Some of the shows we've been watching, and some of them we were initially wanted to be kind of dismissed.
I stay dismissive in that a ninety day fiance or merit at first sight, like this is silly, that'll never work, this is just for entertainment purposes. But you and I have sat and watched these shows and went, wow, we are learning in watching how people communicate.
Right, Because yes, of course it's entertaining. But what you're seeing, I believe, are people who are desperate to want to be together, but don't necessarily know as I think we can all put ourselves in this situation. We don't know how best to communicate with each other, to commiserate, to support each other. We just our egos get in the way. And it's easy to see it in other people and
much harder to acknowledge it in yourself. But sometimes when we're watching these shows, I'm like, oh, oh, I do that, you know, and you actually get some self reflection by seeing other people put themselves out there. And it's easier to witness it first than someone else and then maybe hopefully acknowledge it in yourself.
But we watch it sometimes we see I'll see the guy saying something in a certain way to his wife and uncle and see it that way. But it is I think there is incredible value now in the show. I would have been dismissive ahead of time, but now that I've watched, they wonderful experiments in relationships and communication, which is always key. Now, I said, you and I have been in in couples counseling the past year, but
our counselors don't realize they were counseling us all. One of them was the guy we had on the show, good friend of ours, Jeff Guardier, doctor Guardia America Psychologists. But we had him on to talk about I don't even remember the first time, and it turns into a session for you and I to talk about our relationship.
We started asking questions, he started giving us advice, and we thought, wait, what's happening. I think we're having a therapy session right now. And it worked, and I think a lot of people got a lot of really good actionable information from it.
And doctor Guardia, you can keep sending those invoices if you want, but yeah, we're probably not gonna respond. But the other person that's been giving us counseling, who had no idea probably until this moment, is God by the name of Pastor cow now Pastor cal you all know because the show has been wildly popular. Here is one of the experts. It's the therapist on married at for a site, which has been around now for seventeen seasons.
I think this is two thousand and oh help me with the year, but it's been around two thousand and four I think was first launched, maybe, but almost twenty years, yes, and all these seasons. But we have watched I think we really love him. Doctor Pepper is on there as well, Pepper Schwartz. Yeah, you don't know, but to hear to see how they counsel and sometimes are hard on these people on this show to some tough love, like you got to stop doing that. And it's been fun to watch.
And he is one that we loved, loved watching.
Yeah, Pastor cal actually and funny. I looked him up today and saw that he's got some Michigan roots, and that actually made a lot of sense to me because some of the things he says I hear from my Michigan parents. Love is a decision was one of the biggest things my mom had always preached, and I never really understood it. It didn't really click for me until much much later in life. But I heard Pastor kel saying the very same thing, and I get it now.
It's it's the hard times that you choose to love so one even when you don't like them in the moment maybe, And those are the moments where you're choosing to love someone and to put what they need ahead of what you want. And to me, that's when it it's the hardest. But when you get on the other side of it. That's where the beauty is.
Okay, But Pastor cow As we bring you in here, now, what is wrong with all of us? And I'll raise my hand here as well. You heard what she just said, Pastor, call that folks think that you have that love is not well? How'd you just put it? That your mom is always.
It's it's a decision, is not a feeling.
It's a decision, okay, But what is wrong with any of us having this romanticized idea of He's shaking his head already. Come on, Pastor, cal this a romanticized idea of being able to actually fall in love and that being a real thing. Are we do we need to get away from that?
Yeah? I mean, hey, why it's good to be with you guys. Good to see you again, te j. So look, here's what's so cool and it's so interesting about love and about this whole thing, is that, you know, I think that the idea of falling in love is a Western idea. It's one that we in America and in the West, we really rally to that idea of falling falling, falling in love. Roughly about seventy percent or so marriages worldwide are arranged. These are marriages that have nothing to
do with with your feeling. They have to do with coming together because you're joining legacies, you're joining families, you're joining purposes, and then you learn to grow in love after that. Those are and incidentally, those relationships, those marriages have over a ninety percent success rate where people grow in love. So, yeah, the Western idea of romantic sizing and oh my god, you so fine, man, I gotta be with you, you know, just like you said, Amy,
it's you're falling in lust. You know, it's it's something that we've gotten so accustomed to. But I believe that every time you fall in anything, you get hurt because you have no control over it. And the notion that you have no control over, over, over over this thing that I'm just I just tripped. It's just out there somewhere and I just tripped it. Oops, I'm in. It is ludicrous that you fall into it. I have no control over it. It just happens to me without any
kind of without my input. It just happened. Now, choosing to love says, hey, look there's something in you. I see a value. I'm making a conscious decision to fulfill your legitimate needs, and that decision is going to be there, That commitment is going to be there irrespective of how I feel, irrespective of what I feel good about you today and I don't feel good about you tomorrow, I'm going to be there.
Wow.
So what what is what is that?
You know?
What is the I'm curious though, because that seems tough and hard to do and all of those things. I mean, it's easy to say and really hard to do in the moment. What is your best case for getting married? What's the value in getting married? Why not just being lost and go from person to person to person and just seek that feeling that dopamine hit. What is the case for marriage that you would make to people the case for marriage?
That is such a great question. You know, I believe the marriage is honestly one of the building blocks of a stable society. And I don't want to get you know, philosophical, but I believe it is. I believe that, you know, marriages, you start with marriage, then you have family, then families build communities, then communities build cities, and cities build countries. I believe the marriage is at the foundation. So when people really start poopooing on marriage and say, you know,
you don't have to get married or whatever whatever. I don't buy it. I don't buy it because I know people who've been together forever. Well, I don't see. I don't feel it's just a piece of paper, and they can say that crap. I'm sorry. Can I just be honest with yes? Please, they can say that crap. That
is just a piece of paper. I feel someone all of a sudden, you know, doesn't want to be with him anymore, you know, then all of a sudden they wish that paper was there because that paper is actually it brings legitimacy to it.
Okay, but please, you said bring legitimacy, but it's almost it just makes it harder to break up. Robot and I were talking about this not too terribly long ago, and the Goldie Hawn Kurt Russell example. She always uses. They have chosen to be together all this time and never went down to a courthouse. And that's fine, but there was some value or something more beautiful about someone. Right, do you do you cage the bird or do you give them the option to fly every day? And then
they keep coming back to you that argument? So please help explain in all seriousness. Why that piece of pap per still is so important.
Well, I believe that the piece of paper is important because you know, there there is a there's a saying which says, you know that the things that I'll just tell you, I'm a pastor, so I'm going to give you a text. It says, give to Caesar the things that belonged to Caesar and the God and things that belong to God. And here's what it means. It means simply, the legal laws of the land should prevail when they can, and you should give credence to those when you can.
And your moral convictions, your moral convictions and the things that you do morally, Okay, you have to consider that as well. So they have so. So the piece of paper is a is a is a thing that you give to Caesar. The piece of paper is a It is a way that people that the states recognize, the cities recognize, the countries recognize that you're actually legally connected to that person. I often believe that people don't want to get married. They don't want the piece of paper
because they don't want that legal connection. I talked to somebody recently who they've been together for fifteen years and he refuses to marry her, and she said, well, if it was up to me, we'd be married. And he's like, well, yeah, but I'm just scared because I had a marriage before and it failed, YadA YadA and all that. I'm like, dude, you're not ready to give up your assets.
Okay, that's a lot of people would say that's legit pastical.
You already, I mean, come on, but real commitment says all that I have is yours and all that you have is mine, and the legality of marriage ensures that.
Yeah, how do you know that he or she is the one? Do you believe that there's that that light bulb like the one? I'm curious.
I don't you know what? Amy, I don't Okay, this is not okay? Is there one?
Right?
No? I don't believe in though one. Okay, I believe that there are a number of people that you could possibly be happy with. It comes down to choosing. If you believe that there is only the one, what happens to that one? If God forbid, something happens to them and they are in an accident before you meet them, or if they're born in Afghanistan or any kind of things that would happen. I mean, what happens if you never meet that one, then you're just destined to be
alone because you're not the one. No grown ups make choices to love. We find people who are compatible, who share our values, who have even if our values are different different, they are compatibly different. The differences are compatible. You're an extrovert, I'm an introvert. We balance each other out, you know, or whatever those values are regardless, you know where those people. When we find those people, we make decisions. You know, this person is worth me giving myself to.
I'm making a decision to legitimately commit myself to them, for better or for worse, for Richard, for poor, sickness and in health, but seeking all others and financial you know, on no matter what happens till death to us part. That is the commitment. And you make that with your mind, not with your heart. The heart follows, but the mind begins to g.
Pastica ell on that point. And I think everybody's we didn't really explain what meritive first sight is. I think everybody knows what if you're not aware. The show essentially, as people meet at the altar, they don't know each other's name, they don't know anything but the experts. Essentially, you all go through and try to find people who
are compatible. They meet at the altar, and then the marriage goes on and they have I think a couple of months to decide whether or not they can continue the marriage or get a DIVORCEE Okay, So here's the thing Robot just asked you about making the case for marriage. Can you make the case for divorce? Because you all on the show so often say you're not giving enough time, you're quitting too early. You can make this work if
you want to. So given that it seems like there's rarely could be and I'm not talking about extreme cases of abuse or something like that in the house. That's different, but can't what case can there be for getting divorced? If, like you said, if your mind, if you're committed to it, you can do.
It, you know, And that's a great, great question. I'm not the guy. My wife and I when we sit down with couples and talk with him, we're not the people who will say, you know what, just sticking there, no matter what, you can make it. You'll make it, you know, no matter what's going on just hanging it. That's not us. If there's emotional abuse, I mean, it's severe emotional abuse. And if the person is just completely just intractable, that person will not change, okay, and that
person is just going to be a butthole. I mean, it's just the way they are. And you're suffering emotional abuse. If your children are abusive, if they're drug abuse, and you decide to divorce, that's your call. That's completely your call. And I have even told couples, I've told individuals rather that it's will end couples. I've said, you know what, it's important at this point that you consider whether or not this marriage is worth saving, because in my opinion,
it's not. It's not. So I do believe that there are some instances where it's now and the religious community is going to eat me up for this, and personally, I don't care, Okay, for the fact, I really don't. For the fact is. The fact is, I'm a realist. I'm a realist, and even in the.
Religious community, and I know this is not a religious show, but even the religious community, I can find instance after the instance throughout scripture where people have divorced and gotten remarried, divorce, got remarried because.
I believe that, you know, the ideal situation is the marry one person that stayed with him forever. That's the ideal situation where doesn't always happen. No, I'm a second time. I was. I was married once before. My wife and I we both second time. You know, the first when we were young, we were dumb, we had no knowledge, we knew nothing of what we were doing. We made very bad decisions, incredibly bad decisions. All we stuck with
those decisions until we die. Well, you know, circumstances made it so that we could not stick with those decisions, and so we got we divorced, and then we found each other. And I believe we did a good job in finding each other and making that decision to love. But I do think that, you know it, marriage can be difficult, but you know, there are some situations we're leaving. Each of them might be the answer.
I mean, I actually had therapists in both of my marriages tell me that that it was not savable, So you know, I mean, it's you know, I've gotten that advice, and it did feel good to at least feel like a professional agreed with the situation. Can I ask you a question, a personal question, pastor cal you, what has been the biggest challenge in your marriage?
That's good. That's good, as Tej's. That's good, Robot. Probably the biggest challenge in my marriage and our marriage. We're a blended family. I had two children from a previous marriage. My wife came in with our incredible daughter. I had two boys and still do have two boys. They all live here now. We consider ourselves one family. We've gone through a lot of changes, a lot of trials and what have you. But I think that raising kids in
a blended family has been our biggest challene. So I think anything that Wynnie and I has gone, we've gone through that we have been able to overcome it. We've we've had arguments, yes, we've had some money ones, you know, and we we understood something that we've never done. We've never mentioned the D word. We don't even bring it up, even no matter how bad it gets. And it's it's different because we both got married, we're a little older.
You know, we've gone through stuff before. You know, we we knew the real deal and we knew that once we got married. Okay, fine, this is it forever And we've stuck to that. But I think the biggest challenge has been raising children. And for me, my kids were a little older, you know, a teenager and one in his late teens and one in as mid early teens.
And then raising those kids with us having different parenting styles and just making that whole thing work has been a pain in okay, But we're at a point now where all that hard work and all that difficulty is paying off and we're like, hey, you know, we actually getting along now. Everybody's great. You know, I think everybody loved me, so it's it's a good thing now. But man, it was tough.
We we can relate. We got to the other side of that not too terribly long ago, in the in recent months, so we know what that feels like. And like you're saying that that was the biggest challenge, But something else you've you've always said, no matter what do you think your problem is in your relationship, whether that's finances, whether that's fidelity, whether that's blended fans, whatever, you said, that's not the problem. The problem is how you're communicating
about that problem. So it's still even with your case, would you say It's still all about communication, oh man.
Absolutely absolutely, there is nothing to people cannot overcome if they're willing to be vulnerable and talk about it, listen to each other's opinions, relent, give up when you know you're wrong, Okay, give in and understand that even if you're right, you have to extend grace and those two people can then come together and find a solution. I believe that. And it's and I'm glad you said that because you know I wrote about that in my book right there, in case you didn't know.
Yeah, marriage a for punks, right.
I believe that how you communicate about it, it is absolutely it's vital to your success. With my wife and I, how we communicate about our dislike and I mean that our dislike of our children. And that's tough, that's tough, but you will me be straight. Let's be straight.
We get it. We get it.
We love our kids. I can say without question that when they absolutely loves my sons, and I absolutely love our daughter, I mean her daughter, our daughter, my son, our sons. I think we absolutely But do we always like them?
The look on his face right now says no, no.
Absolutely, not absolutely not. But how we communicate to each other, and it will open and honest about expressing that and not taking offense at it. You know, even though it might be a little offensive, we don't take offense at it, not really. You know. We'll listen and we'll say, you know what, I don't really like her right now. I really don't like him right now. You know why, We'll
tell me about it, and we talk about it. We're willing because at the root of everything we're discussing, we know that we want our marriage and our family to work.
Yeah, I'm curious. This is always a big question people ask, chemistry or compatibility. Do you have to have chemistry? Do you have to have compatibility to make a marriage work?
You know what, I think that first of all, we have to define chemistry because we believe I think quite often it's almost like the falling in love concept. We look at chemistry as an ethereal thing that floats out there, and you know, we'll walk into the midst of it and booth, there it is. You know, we connect. You know, the cupid has slung its arrow and stuck through both of us, and hey, we got chemistry. You know, I
believe chemistry can be created. Do you remember in high school MIDB and middles scho I don't know when it was for me, but when we did science experiments and you put baking soda and vinegar, I think, and it makes the volcano.
You're creating.
You're creating chemistry, right, You're taking two ingredients, putting them together and you're making an explosion. It's the same thing in a relationship. I've seen it over and over again. People say, we don't love each other, we don't have chemistry anymore. But if you do the things that are necessary for chemistry to be there, then the chemistry will return. But when you stop doing those things, it will lead. But it's totally based on what you create.
What are the things pastical?
What are the things that you do for instance, And I'm so glad you asked that. Here's some of the things you can do to create chemistry, for instance, kindness. You know, what are you actually doing? You'll notice that one of the first thing that happens if there's a disagreement or an argument is that you stop touching. Okay, you go to the east side, you go to the west side, north or south. I mean, the hell are
you sleeping? But you know you you separate each other, keeping touch, keeping constant touch is a way of reminding yourselves that we want to be together. Doctor Pepperah, I'll give her credit for this. She always talked about it with our couples. She says, when you're arguing whole hands and it's so difficult, it's very difficult.
I agree that difficult.
But when you add rechet, because one person is going to pull away and all of it is gonna be like, I don't want to touch you. What are you crazy? She's gonna cut me. No. But but you have to. You have to do those things that people in love do if you want to be in love. It's almost like you have to touch. Okay, you have to do kind gestures. I made up in my mind early on in our marriage. But there are some things that I'm always going to do for my wife, irrespective of how
I feel. I will always open the door for her, no matter where, no matter what. I now might open it and then when she gets in, I'll slam it, but I'll open it. Get it in the car. No, but I know, seriously, I'll open the door for her all the time. I'm always going to try to be kind to her. I'm always going to try to run to her aid and she does the same thing to me. It's not one sided, you know, irrespectable, what's going on? You know, I like, I like maybe okay, I'm telling
you I'm a business now. Sometimes you know, she she started this ritual when I went to bed. When we'd go to bed, right before we go go to sleep, she'll go to the bathroom and warm a handcloth or a wash cloth or whatever, and she'd get a nice and warm and hot and come and just wipe my face with it before Man, it's awesome. So she just wipe my face he's down, you know, before we go to sleep. And it's so tough to do all the time. Sometimes she might forget, but she does that and that's
so appreciative. But even when we're not feeling good about each other, you do those kindnesses, You do those things. Those are the things that you do when you are feeling good about each other. Just try push through your negativity and do those things when you're not feeling about good about each other, and you'll see the chemistry start to return. It'll it'll start to return because your brain always leads your heart.
Follows, Yeah, it's funny sometimes if we've had a tense day and we hold hands a lot. But sometimes if we're not even talking that much. Like sometimes when we do that, you'll just squeeze my hand and like we don't even have to say anything. It's just that nonverbal communications like okay, all right, we're gonna we're gonna be okay, you know what I'm talking about.
We do that all the time too. My wife, she's standing here now, put your hand. She's laughing.
She's waiting to smack you and case you in case you speak out a turn about this marriage.
You know. But yeah, but I I love I love marriage. I love marriage even when it's bad. It's it's not terrible. You know, when you're with the person that you know has your back. I tell for quite often that it's like, you know, your your mate is there two to be a witness to your life. You know, because this is the person who sees all the insignificant things that no one else sees. He or she. They they care about things that no one else would ever care about. You know,
you you change a habit, you do something different. You know, you you have some insignificant concern that nobody gives up fart about excuse me. But what happens is that she cares. You know, he pays a Oh you've changed your hair. Oh this is different. Oh that's different. All that stuff is someone being a witness to your existence, a witness that you matter, and that there's none better than that.
Pastic how I helped folks with I think something so key. When you were talking about how communication was so important. You said, yes, communication, But then in the next word or two you said vulnerability. You said you have to be vulnerable in the midst of that communication. And I think that is probably a place where people do struggle. Everybody listening has had some argument in a relationship and that moment has come up in communication and you're not
willing to be vulnerable. Sometimes it's ego and say, well, you're not going to be vulnerable. I'm not going to be hurt by putting myself out there. Will you help folks for a moment with that part? How do you make sure you train yourself to be vulnerable even if you might not be getting that in return immediately, and you don't feel safe with the person necessarily emotionally at least, And I.
Think that's it. I think you just you just made you just said a key word, they're safe. I think that vulnerability requires understanding and the idea of of a wife being vulnerable to her husband, or a husband being vulnerable to is his wife. It's it's easier to be that way when you feel like that person understands you, and that word understands means that you actually stand under you, actually are there. You're there as a soft place for that person to land. You know you're standing under you
understand me. And so it's like, you know, if if if I'm being vulnerable to you, and if I'm giving you something personal about me or I'm saying something to you, I need to know that you're standing under me and you're making my words my life. Who all that I am? You're giving me that safe place to land. And I think that's so tough for people. So I understand when people are not vulnerable. I understand when they when they
when they when they recoil, when they pull back. Who wants to expose himself to someone who's going to hurt them. We have an exercise that we give couples called naked Moments, and you know you can do without what you will in your mind. But it's called naked need to give and naked moments is sort of a catchphrase that that we use whenever you need to have a completely open, honest and vulnerable conversation. And even after we'ven married all these years, we still do this. We say, you know,
I need a naked moment. And when you say that, a person's you know it's it's almost like a safe word, and you know the light should go on. It means you put down your phone, you get away from the TV, you get away from anything distracting, and you lock in and listen to your partner. Now you're going to listen without distraction. You're going to listen not for reasons to retort. You're not listening for rebuttal You're listening for understanding because
it is an incredibly important moment. You have an opportunity for this person to reveal themselves to you. Now, in revealing yourself to a person, you have to understand that the listener or the receiver, the ones who's hearing this, that the one who's giving it, the sharer, that persons giving you a weapon. And it's because all of a sudden, if I'm telling you about me, and I'm telling you about how I feel. All my nerves are exposed. I'm here,
I'm open, I've ripped open everything. I'm right here in front of you, and I'm giving you everything. That is a powerful weapon for the listener to have, and you can either use that weapon to hurt him or hurt her with it, or you can use that weapon to protect them. And the more you use that weapon to protect, the easier it will become for that person to be vulnerable in the future. So it takes time and consistency. If you want your mate to be vulnerable with you,
you have to understand them. You have to give them a soft place to land over a period of time where they become comfortable. And it's not a matter of you know people, I mean I this generation just annoys me sometimes because it's like when a guy is doing that, they're calling him a simp or or or I don't know, if you haven't heard that term before, it's okay, well wait what is that?
Yeah, we've heard this, We've had our daughters tell us this, and I've already forgotten what it is. But yes he's amp, Yes.
He's too sensitive or he's you know, he's too accommodating or whatepens bs, you know he's being a man. It takes as much of a it takes as much maturity and as much strength to be vulnerable as as it does to be you know, a rock. You know, I think it takes more strength to let your guards now absolutely.
What would you say the biggest mistake couples.
Make the biggest wow or you.
Can list a couple, because you know what people do that actually ends up undermining their relationship.
I would say the first thing becomes to mind is the inability to accept change and a misunderstanding of the place of change in your relationship. One thing I heard couples say quite often is you're not the person I'm married, You're not the same. My answer to that is dull, I mean, you know who is you know? I mean, who is the same person today as they were a year ago?
No one is.
So I think if people understand that change is not a bad thing, one of the most I'm sort of an iconoclass I kind of go against cherished beliefs, and so it's when someone says, you know, a lot of these sayings that are out there to me. Are we just say them and we don't really get it. Like, for instance, whatever it took to get them is what it takes to keep them. That's BS. I don't believe it. No, I mean, what it took to get them is what
it took together. What it takes to keep them is much more than what it took together.
That is so true, because that person is changing, and with every change is a new opportunity for you to learn and adapt.
Okay, So I believe that changing and not knowing the place of change in your relationship. I look at change as a beautiful opportunity to learn something new about your spouse. That's what changes if you've changed. If you're not, I mean, there are things that I didn't like when we got married that I really like now. Things that I did like when I get married. We got married and I don't like now. There's a chance for her to learn about me.
Okay, you got to tell us what those things are. I mean, we already got the wipeing of with the towel, So tell me, really, what what is it that you like now that you didn't like when you first got together? And what was it thing you don't like now? They did, like when you first got.
Together and you just put my stuff all in the street.
Hey man, Well, one thing.
I guess you know. One thing. The things that I most of the things that I like now that I didn't like, I like because my wife has influenced me. Okay, there's some things I didn't like to eat. I never I mean like avocados. Not. Let me be as simple as that.
The little, the mushy.
Then what the heck.
Has he hates them?
With my man?
You get it, dude, I can't have him in the house. I don't want to see him.
Is a texture issue.
It's a texture thing, absolutely, That's what I tell him. It's a texture thing.
I found. My tribe found avocados and Okra.
I don't understand.
Okay, I am from orc, Arkansas, so Okra is on my list of things. We were here for a second for a second.
Vocados, But I I have but because of I mean, she's trudded daddy, and avocados are just her things. She loves avocados, and uh, you know, I tried one and she keeps, you know, shoving them down in front of me. So so after a while, I say, you know what, Okay, maybe it's not so bad, and then you're not. I like them, but it's and it's a it's a small example just to show you that she has influenced me and and and that that that micro micro influence, you know,
is you can turn to a macro thing. You know. It's like the things that I used to like that I don't like. I mean, I, oh god, there's so many. She just whispered to me, sarcasm. WHOA I used to be very sarcastic. I thought it was fun. Oh wow, the older I got. I don't care. I don't want to hear it. I mean, I just want to be straight with me, you know, just don't just don't bring me sarcasms. I believe I look at sarcasm as a bailed insult, you know, it's like, really, dude, come on.
So so those are some of the things. But anyway, that's that's going to be all over the media.
What would be What would our things be? What is something you didn't like when we first started dating that you do like now or something or in the opposite.
Way, well, something as simple as like salmon tartar or you know, like you've introduced me. So a lot of seafood that I wouldn't have tried before. I yes, And I've enjoyed watching sports on a very extreme level that I never really bothered to even pay attention to before. So I definitely watched a lot of basketball that I wouldn't have watched. I have always liked college football, but
so there was some precedent to it. I I enjoy now getting up earlier than I used to because if I don't get up early, I miss the best part of the day with TJ. Because that is when he is at his brightest and I would almost argue most fun. And so if I don't get up early, I miss the best part of TJ.
Sure that pastor cal Yeah, four thirty am I am the life of the party, brother, Oh my god, Oh yeah.
It really is. And you know, I'm not like a late sleeper, but I'm more like six thirty seven. And so if I'm left to my own devices, So now, like this morning is not a good example, but a lot of mornings now I'll get up significantly before I would have, and I've enjoyed it, and it actually gets your day started. So I would say those things, how about you?
I didn't before we started dating. I didn't like yacht rock.
You still don't.
I still don't. Okay, bad example.
Food.
I'm trying to think of something though, And I don't know if this is what you were talking about as well, pastor cal But there are some things that's one thing, food or interests. But what do you find sometimes the things about your mate You've talked about the sarcasm, But I was trying to think of something that you did that I used to like that I don't like anymore, or something you did that that kind of a thing. I actually can't think of anything there necessarily, but I'm
sure there's something I'll keep thinking. Pasical to some of the answers.
That was good. I'm glad you didn't that was good.
Yeah, smart man doesal the things you kind of describe seemed to make an argument for why married at first sight can work and why it absolutely can't work.
Meaning you put people there, if you're committed to this relationship, you're committed to it and you can make it work. But then on the other side of that, you talked about vulnerability, and it's hard to have that with someone that you just met. After after a week, two weeks, three weeks. So how do you see the marrit at first sight ex compare to how we normally go about dating and relationships in marriage.
Most of the people, most of the people who we I would like to say all, but I can't because sometimes there are a lot of Charlatan's there who you know, who trick us. But most of the people who we who we choose to be married at first sight, they are ready for the commitment. They they they And one question I always ask them is were you considering marriage
before you knew we were auditioning for the show? You know, is this something that's been on your mind or did you just say, hey, I can do that, okay great? And the ones who say, well, you know what, I've been thinking about it, I'm like, nope, you're out of here. No, I need to know. I need to have people who
have already decided that they want to be married. Now, all that being said, back your question as far as people who are vulnerable, I think that there are people who are already in that mindset, so it's a little easier for them to accept the idea of marriage. And then the idea of marrying a stranger is a strange idea. Also, but if you knew what goes on behind the scenes and how we prep these people and how we vet
them before they get to the show. I mean, over the three months that we're vetting them before they're even chosen, we've learned so much about them, and they've learned so much about the process. They've learned so much about themselves that they become confident in what we're doing. And so then it's a matter of them just once they make the decision. We have so many people. I'm trying not to give spoilers for any upcoming seasons because that's what's
in my mind most recently got some older seasons. But they're in a mindset to be vulnerable, and they're in a mindset to be committed, you know. So it's if they were just doing this for fun, then there would
be a greater commitment issue. But the reason we have twelve I think it's now twelve couples that are still together, twelve fourteen couples that are still together, and roughly about thirteen fourteen babies, you know, I mean, it says a lot, you know that people are really they're really ready and willing to be committed and they're ready and willing to
be vulnerable. And of course, you know, I don't think there's any other platform where you're going to have people who are just constantly in your face, helping you through your situation, counseling you. Whenever you have a problem, you can call them because we're there more than more than what you see on TV. We're there sometimes I'm up to two am talking to people, you know, helping them in their relationships. It's quite extensive.
Well, we've watched two full seasons and we're on another one now. We admitted to you we like watching the ones with our commercials, so we have been finding those seasons and you know you mentioned I think twelve or fourteen are still together. I believe the show's success rate is just under twenty percent, you know, and for a TV show, I can say, when we're watching the show,
it all seems very genuine. Like you to your point, these couples do seem like this is something they really want and are fighting for and are struggling with in front of everyone, which can't be easy. But this past season see season seventeen, has gotten a lot of publicity for quite the opposite that it seemed as though you mentioned Charlatan's, there were some of those that in that cast, people who weren't in it for the right reasons, Like yeah,
I mean the reunion show. We started to watch some of it today and it didn't feel like any other season that we've seen at least have married at first sight. So lessons learned from season seventeen as you all now in Barkin season eighteen or we're about to. I guess you guys have already shot it, right, but we haven't. We haven't seen it yet. It has been released yet. What lessons did you all learn? And I just want to get your overall impressions of what happened at season seventeen.
Season seventeen, And you know, I normally tried to be as objective as possible, but Season seventeen will go down in history, my personal marreative first sight history, as being the most difficult season that I've ever ever experienced since being a part of this show. I think that what happened was that you know, a lot of them, a lot of people when they got together, it only takes sometimes it only takes a couple people to sort of infect the entire group. And I think that's what happened.
I'm not going to call any names, but there were some people who came in and concocted this insane idea that we want to look good on camera. And they were so convinced and so successful in their approach that they convinced the rest of them to do the same. And so they decided that they are going to try and do the process. Now, you guys, you've been in TV, you understand the deal. Cameras are always on. I mean, you can't get rid of cameras. And they're all over
the house. They're in the they're in the car, they're everywhere. The only place we don't go is a bathroom and in the bedroom after you shut the door, that's it. Outside of that, you know, you're always on camera. So we picked up on it very quickly, and we warned them early on, please be sincere because the cameras are watching. But for some reason, sometimes I just call it hubris. People think that they can outwit the cameras and outwit a process that's been going on for seventeen seasons. And
you have a better idea. You think that you can just just sneak in and and do the whole thing so that we want to look better and anytime someone tried to do that, they always end up looking like buffoons. And there you have Season.
Seventeen, pastor Kel, do you ever have to in that three month process of vetting people? I mean, this is still you said, we're TV folks cameras around. We also understand that you can't have boring folks on TV. I'm not this is not like a show of Real Housewives type of thing where that needs to be drama type thing. But you all have to or how do you give some consideration to well, we still got to have interesting
folks who might have interesting dynamics. That plays into it a little bit, doesn't it.
Absolutely, Absolutely we want people. We want people who are interesting. However, that's a production thing when it comes to me, Doctor Pepper and Doctor Peel, who's now on when it comes to us, And I've said this on camera, I think they keep editing it out, but this on camera, we don't care about the cameras. That's not my focus. I'm not here for the cameras. I'm not here for the show.
I'm not I'm here for the marriage. And I tell them quite often my main concern is that you stay married and that you do the things that are necessary and listen to us and do those things are necessary to make a marriage successful. So one thing that I do know, though, is that you know, and we all we've all been married here, we all are married. Well, whatever we are.
You gave it away. We told you that in confidence, pastor cow We're trying to figure it out.
But one thing that you do know about marriage is that if you just turn the cameras on on any marriage and leave them on, you're going to get every genre of theater. You're going to get comedy, You're going to get drama, you're going to get spins. You know, you're going to get everything.
Uh, and so that you forgot horror, I know, I was.
Trying to leave that out. You want to get it. You gotta get it's gonna be a thriller as well. But you know when you so, that's what we do normally, We just leave the cameras on and they create their own drama. They create their own you're just being married. If someone turned the camera on in our family, you know, and just saw us for you know, a couple of days, come on, it would be hilarious and sad and scary.
You know all that, Master, Cal You've been doing this since season four, have I'm sure there have been, But can you think of a couple or two that really disappointed you because you thought they could make it. They should have tried harder, they could have actually made it further than they did.
Yeah, yeah, wow, that is a good one. Yeah, I do. And I'm trying to remember some of the names. There was a couple in Dallas. I can't even remember the names because for some reason, I don't remember the ones who succeed. But there was a couple in Dallas that I really thought could have made it. He was older and she was. He was like thirty nine and she was like thirty eight. And I really wanted them to succeed. I thought that they could have, but they just showed it.
He just chose not to.
Even in this last season in Denver with Michael and his wife Chloe Chloe, Oh my god, there's my daughter's day. Oh what's wrong with me? Mike Chloe? Even with them, we thought for sure they were going to make it. Chloe was such a class act, I mean, such an
incredible person, and we believe that Michael. I think he's a good guy too, but I think that just the whole tension of the show and all the stress of the show, I think he made a bad decision and staying with that season, I think that Lauren and Orian they could have made I think they would have They
actually could have made it. He made some very immature decisions early on, and I'd go back season after season after season and show you people who had all the potential, but they they allowed their single thinking to influence their married life.
Past the count. Do you take it personally? Do you do you ever when people don't work out? Because in two ways, One it's not good for the show and whatnot for its its track record, but also personally that you set someone up with an individual that didn't work out or they didn't like you. Does that bother you when there's a miss and you take it personally?
It does it bothers me? It's It's like, look, when you put all especially, it's not just the matching, it's it's all the season that I've spent time with you know, these people and just talking to them like Miles and care and you know who. I think there are still great people, you know, but they're no longer together. And you know, I think about all the time that I've spent, you know, late at night, you know, talking to couples, and and you decide to to just quit, you know,
because of something. And I think I think that, you know, if they would have persisted, and not just them, but any a lot of the other couples, that they would have persisted, that they would have seen, you know, the brighter side of their relationship. So in the moment, I'm gonna be very frank with you though, But in the moment, yeah, it does bother me. But then I go home and I sleep.
Get down with that towel, no worries at all.
Brother, you know, I do like to I go home and I sleep well because look, at the end of the day, I don't feel as though I've done anyone of disservice.
They came there, We didn't we didn't draft them. They came there because they wanted to be married. We provided them every opportunity to be married, in every opportunity to succeed, and they threw it away. So at that point I feel bad about it, but it's not lasting.
Do you think when when these types or any relationship ends truly. Do you think oftentimes it does boil down to ego?
Okay, yes it does. It was a strange phenomenon with TV with this show that I think sometimes people who may not be able to find though one or the right person, all of a sudden they get married at first sight. These are for the ones who failed, All of a sudden, they get married at first sight, and now they're like, wait a minute, I'm on TV. Hey, you know other people are going to see me. Wow, maybe I can get somebody now, So I'm going to say no, I decision day and.
Oh because now my options are much bigger and greater.
But here's what they don't realize. Yes, people do know you. Yes, social media, you will increase your social media following absolutely, But here's what you don't know. You don't realize is that your entire married life is on TV and people can see if you were creep, they can see if you were angry, they can see if you were whatever. They see all that. So that may not bode well
for you. If you don't treat your husband right, if you don't treat your wife right, and now you're trying to date someone, all they have to do is go to Netflix and oh I don't want her.
If that's your tryout, you're probably not going to get anybody. Go U. I have a question here from a very loyal, loyal viewer of Married at First Sight, and it goes it says you say marriage ain't for punks. So if that's the case, would you say that dating is for punks? That comes to us and reviewer by the name of Devon Franklin. By the way, are you here. I'm texting with Devon right now. He's been one of my boys tho years and know he's joining you.
I need to catch up with him. I never talked to Devon in a minute, but he.
Wanted to ask you that question.
You know what dating, No, dating ain't for punks either. Dating, Oh my god, it's tough. But uh, dating with a purpose ain't for punks. You know, Dating without an intentional goal is definitely, you know, for punks. But if you if you're if you're dating with intention and you know, like Devon, you know you know who who's just that's just an awesome dude. But like you know, if someone in as we get older and you're single and you're dating, most people in that category. You know you're dating with
an intention. You know you're not just out trying to netflix and chill. You want something serious and so that takes a lot of grip, a lot of resolve. And uh so, yeah, dating with intention ain't for punks, but just dating to just mash and grab that smashing.
Well, I am. I only have two of the small things that I want you to chime in because people have different opinions about it. Your opinion on this, just quickly going to bed mad is that people say you shouldn't do it.
What do you think? I don't think you should go to bed angry. I think I think it's okay to excuse me. I think it's okay to go to bed without the issue resolved. And there's a difference. Going to bed angry means that I'm I'm going to I'm going to carry that that weight, I'm going to carry that pain with me to sleep. First of all, you're not going to sleep. Well, you know it doesn't very seldom happen.
But I think that you can resolve an issue and say, you know what, we don't agree on this, but what we're going to do, let's table it and we'll talk about it tomorrow. At least you've made a connection with your partner and you know that this that that we're okay, even though the issue is not resolved. We're good even the issue is not resolved, and we can read, we can read, you know, just just reapproach it on.
The next day.
It goes to what I say about conflict resolution, that the problem is not the problem, or rather, the person is not the problem. The problem is. And so when you look at an issue that you're having between two people, look at that thing, objectify, put it on a shelf, and say, look, that is the problem. That is the thing that's attacking our relationship. I'm not attaching it to you. It's not attached to me. That is the problem. So
in the morning, we're going to talk about that. As far as you're concerned, we're in this together, we love each other, we're going to be okay, we're going to go to bed. It's not resolved. We're going to go to bed, and in the morning we're going to talk about that. We're not going to attach it to us.
And seven year itch, is that a real thing?
I think no, No, that's a movie. Back in the fifties or something. No, that's not a real thing. I think. I think there are some people out there to say that. After a certain amount of years, you start to question. But some people itch after sick months. You know, some people hit all the time. You know they need to get some some cream or something to get rid of that. Yeah, some people just itch.
Man, I don't think.
I think it's something we've been put in our minds. You know, they have to your seven get over your seven years. Our seven years went, seventh year went by without a hitch. I don't even remember it specifically.
Funny Yeah, and Patrick, I just have a few and then I think we'll be good. But I'm curious to play off of what you kind of said about not going to bed angry when you are feeling anger towards each other? Are there things you can say? Are there things you can do that will that will dissipate that anger? Or is it better to say nothing if you don't
have something nice to say, say nothing at all. I'm curious what you do in those moments where it is intense and you do feel overwhelmed with anger and emotion. Do you have things you can say or do?
Absolutely? Absolutely first, I'll understand where the enemy is. Understand where the enemy is. The enemy is the issue. And so I tell couples to say all the time, tell your partner when you're feeling that, first of all, I am not your enemy. I'm not your enemy. I'm on your side. That when you have that kind of anchor, and I believe that you don't have to. If I'm angry at my wife about something, I don't have to wait for her to initiate reconciliation. I can easily initiate it.
Even if it's something that she did to me, I can still initiate reconciliation. And I can start that by saying, you know what. Yeah, I mean in my mind, I'm thinking, okay, fine, you know this pissed me off. This really got me going here, you know what. But here's what I'm going to say, honey. You know, I know I'm not feeling good now, but I do recognize that you're not my enemy. You are not my enemy. I know we're on the same side, and so we're going to deal with this.
Because the moment you reconnect with your partner by letting them know that you're not mad at.
Them, what if you are mad at them though it's.
Okay, And that's what I mean by placing, by placing that your understanding the enemy.
You're mad at them, but they Yeah, you said, wow, you setting off balloons on your computer? There it went right along with your answer. I love that. That was perfect. I'm like, arcle, did I do that?
But no, But even even if I am upset at what you did, I'm actually angry at what you did. Okay, I have to separate the what you did from the who you are. You're questioning it.
No, it's just so difficult to do. What you said makes perfect sense. But Mary Jane, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, it's it's very difficult. But you see, but this is the challenge, this is the challenge in marriage and why and why so many of us, you know, find it difficult and you know, and we go through multiple marriages because we don't learn these lessons that anything that's worth having is worth fighting for, it's worth pushing through your your your negative feelings. I look at it like this.
I've worked many jobs that I didn't like, many of them that I had to roll out to pull myself out of bed in the morning, and oh my god, I'll have to go to this fleet. I hate these people that oh my job, but I do it. Why because I know that if I don't go, I'm not going to get paid. I'm not going. You know, my life depends on this. I have a family. I have to take care of this. But we don't think of marriage that way the moment. We don't like them in
our marriage. Something in our marriage we are very quick to say, you know what, I'm not going to go into work today. I'm not you know, But why do we have so much more commitment to the things that don't affect our life or the things that are not as important as our relationship. But we don't have the commitment for our relationship?
All right? And then quickly, lastly, I want to ask, how do you find a way to forgive? And when I say like, forgive and forget, like not to hold the grudge, not to breed resentment, do you have tips for that?
Absolutely? First of all, there's no such thing as forgiving and forgetting.
It's not possible.
As humans, everything that's happened in our lives, we remember everything. I mean, doctors can even open up your skull and touch certain parts of your brain and you can remember things from your childhood, you know, so it's almost impossible
to forget. So what we're talking about is forgiving and coping, not forgiving and forgetting, Okay, And I think that that's a that's a big challenge here because when we talk about forgiving, when I forgive you, what I'm saying is I'm showing you, I'm offering you grace, I'm offering you a reprieve. I'm releasing my judgment over you. Okay, I'm not going to I'm not going to stand over you and lord over you. Now, I'll be The forgiveness is
necessary in every circumstance. It's always necessary. But if you cannot handle the memory of what that of what happened, if you cannot handle that thing, you're not going to forget it. But if you can't turn that trunk into a carrying case, if you can't do that, then you have to decide whether you're going to forgive and stay or forgiven leave. But forgiveness is not an option that has to happen because that's not for the person who offended.
That's for you. Forgiveness is for you. Forgiveness cleanses you. Forgiveness releases the weight from you. Forgiveness lets you know that you can move on. It's not about them now. If I can forgive you and and and and look at everything that you've done and say, you know what, I forgive you.
And this is going to be tough, but we can work through it.
We can work through it. I'm going to work on my memories of it. But I need you to help me. I need you to be patient. If I have to bring it up again, if we have to talk about it, you got to be patient with me. If it takes six months, if it takes a year, you have to be patient. And if you're not willing to do that, then we have to make some decisions because I'm going to forgive you irrespective. Will I forgive and stay or will I forgive and leave?
Very cool. We have so enjoyed this conversation. We were looking forward to it for so long. We will keep watching, also looking forward to season eighteen of Married at First Sight. But just I really, as much as it is entertaining, it really has been educational for us. So thank you for being vulnerable yourself, not only on this podcast but on the show It matters.
Oh absolutely, thank you so much. I do want to share with you that we have that, my wife and I we do have something that's so so cool because we get so many requests for counseling and what have you that we can't talk to everybody. So we have an app that's going to becoming I'll call a marriage Ain't for pumps Go figure. So then the app will be coming out. We're doing a soft launch in by the end of this month. It will be in beta form, but then we're going to be looking at a larger
launch to the public very very shortly after that. And I'm here to tell you it's a relationship app for married people, and it's one app with three applications. Is for married people, it's going to have resources, it's going to have marriage tips, about parenting, about a conflict resolution, you name it, you're going to be able to find
it in that app. And also for dating people, there's a pre married section in it for people who are dating and want to be married, and then for marriage minded people, people who are single and looking for their forever partner, and so there will be a matchmaking component in that. So it's one app with three different applications. Be awesome so keep your eye and keep on the lookout for that. And marriage ain't for pumps dot com.
So you're you're launching a dating app? Did I hear that correctly? You kidding?
You know what? You know what, it's not app hard, it's a pre marriage.
And a marriage for fifteen ninety nine. We will have somebody for you by the summer. We can't fansical. I love you, brother. We absolutely have leaned on you in a lot of ways. When we were kind of locked down, we were watching a lot of TV and we picked up your show and it really has been cool to watch you. Also, congrats on all the success. Our best to the entire staff over there, and please give your wife our best as well. Thank her for hanging out with us here as well.
All Right, see you guys. My pleasure was a lot of fun. Hope to see you again.
You will, brother, Thank you.
That's it.
Hey, we'd love to hear what you think about this at Amy and TJ podcast on Instagram. Thanks for being with us everyone. Hope you learned something.
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