Welcome everyone to Amy and TJ. This is kind of a parton too, of our conversation with a microbiologist who just so happens to be my father, Michael Roboch. But we decided we had questions for him, but we know so many of you do too, so we asked you, our listeners, to send in your questions for our Ask a Microbiologist Anything episode, and so we're going to get right into it. Dad, Thanks for sticking around and doing this part two with us, my pleasure.
You know, it's funny growing up.
Over the years, I had the luxury of having you available to me at all times if I needed to ask you things like is this milk still good? Can I still eat the leftovers in the fridge? Or hey, Dad, I'm traveling to China, can I drink the water? And you were always able to give me really good, important, scientific based advice and it certainly helped me stay healthier
throughout the year. So this is an opportunity for us to hear answers to all of those questions that you have, and our amazing producer Andy has the list in front of him and he's going to start reading the first question.
Awesome take it away. All right. So, mister Robach, what will happen to our food supply if the FDA is dismantled.
Well, that's a really interesting question. If the FDA is dismantled. Let's hope the FDA is not dismantled, because we do need regulation. I think. I've worked with the FDA and the USDA my entire career, and I've always been a proponent of good, scientifically based regulation. So if we were to lose that regulatory oversight, I think we would be entering into a rather volatile and dangerous period of consumption, because there are people wanting to produce food who really
don't understand how to do that. And at least with FDA regulations, there's a framework and there are requirements that you must follow in order to be a food producer. And without that, I would think that you would be really out on your own. It'd be the wild wild West, I guess, which I think is not. It's not good for the consumer. So we do need regulation. The regulation needs to be based on science, it needs to be based on public health outcomes.
Okay, Question number two, how long can you keep a rotisserie chicken in the fridge.
You catt do the good stuff?
Now, Yeah, I want to know the answer to this. I'm curious, definitely.
Right.
Well, I'm going to ask you then, how long did you keep the rotisserie chicken in your car before you got it home in the really?
Or did the Fresh Direct delivery guy have it in his van before he brings it to your apartments.
One of the dangerous things is that you don't know from a if I'm producing rotisserie chickens. I'm cooking those rotisserie chickens to one hundred and sixty five degrees, so I know that they are safe and wholesome when they leave my store. What I don't know is what the consumer or the delivery person has done to that chicken before it gets to the consumer's door, to their refrigerator.
So it is highly dependent. Because cooking to one sixty five you kill the pathogens, so you kill the dangerous bacteria. You don't kill all the bacteria. Okay, So during that per of time, if it cools down, let's say there's a what we call the danger zone for bacteria somewhere between eighty five and one hundred and thirty degrees where
bacteria can survive and can grow. So if your protisserie chickens spends a couple hours, let's say at one hundred and ten degrees, okay, the shelf life of that product is going to be greatly diminished.
Well, okay, Papara, help me, help me get this right fully cooked with everything cooked out of it. It goes to one hundred and sixty five, one hundred seventies cooked. And it's sitting in the store. We all seen them in that little little heat lamp over them. So you're tell me if the bacteria the danger stuff is cooked out of it. But once I put it in my car and I then make a stop at this store and then make a stop at that store before I get home,
the tempers are going down. Now new things are starting to grow.
The bacteria that survive the one hundred and sixty five degree co survive, yes, and now those organisms will begin to grow and will start the spoilage process. Wow, the pathogens are dead as long as you keep it sealed, you know. So you're not gonna have salmonella, You're not gonna heavy Coli, Campelebacter, listeria. Those organisms are dead. But the spoilage bacteria are still alive and well, and once it drops below one hundred and forty degrees, some of
those organisms can begin to grow. So if you're out for two three hours, you are letting these bacteria get through what we call the lag phase of growth, and then all of a sudden they kick into what's called a log phase of growth. So they go from going you know, like there's like let's say there's twenty, there's twenty, there's twenty five, there's thirty. Then all of a sudden they go into log. It goes from thirty to three hundred to three thousand quickly.
Wow.
So in the fridge. Let's say we get it safely home, we get in the fridge. Now what are we with? How that was the question, right?
So yeah, assuming you bring it right back from the store, you put it in the refrigerator. If you're again, what's the temperature of your refrigerator? Is it thirty four degrees?
Like mine is? Yeh? Is it?
Or is it forty? Is it forty five? I mean some people, you know, keep their.
Refrigerator go to thirty four.
Okay, thirty four degrees. I would say you've probably got a good three to five days that you could keep that rotisserie.
Chicken in there, right all right? Actually terrified to eat or touch anything. This next question is what is the best way to clean produce? And can you wash away salmonella? Which I'm so sorry. I literally wash my hands. I go through a roll of paper towels every time I cook chicken. I'm constantly afraid I'm gonna get salmonilla's. This is a great question, listen.
So produce again, depending on the type of produce. I mean, like you know, berries, for sure, you can rinse them with water, and that's going to diminish any possibility of getting getting sick. It's not going to eliminate it, but it's it's going to diminish it. Uh, produce the same way romaine let us any type of lettuce, any type of leafy green. A lot of them come triple washed, you know, in the store if they're in the package. Most of the companies that do that do a very good job.
We can trust that, but I never do.
It's not it's not fail safe.
Okay, yeah, he told me not to trust that fail safe.
So you know, my advice would be to rinse it off before you consume it.
You know, how do you wash your produce because some people just kind of half ask it and give it a once over. I sometimes dip it in a I hate to admit this, I'll put it in a bowl of water and it rinse it all around together and then dump the water out.
What is the right way, Well, I mean, you know, it depends on on the produce. But if you're talking about let great tapes or let us, I mean I think you put them in a calendar, you get a sprayer and you and you spray them off. The same thing with berries.
Asking for a friend.
Of course, this next question is do babies that go to daycare grow up with better immune systems because of early sickness.
Well, then, I think in the last episode we mentioned acchoired immunity, So you know, I mean I grew up in a big family. My wife, Johnny, grew up in a big family, and so we were exposed to probably a lot of different organisms. We spend a lot of time outside. You know, we probably ate dirt and things light like that, and I believe that that does stimulate your immune system, and so acquired immunity is a good thing.
You can you can raise children in a two sterile of an environment, so that when they are then exposed to a bacteria that they've never seen before, they could become more ill because they don't have antibodies developed. So natural immunity, natural antibody development is a good thing. I mean, it's you know it. People often say what doesn't kill you makes you stronger, you know, and there is some
there is some truth to that. You know, this is kind of an aside, but there's you know, evolving evidence that you know, peanut allergies developed because doctors were telling mothers not that you expose their kids to peanuts or peanut butter, and so kids for the first four or five years of their life, they're not exposed to peanuts, and then all of a sudden, there's six or seven, they're going to school and somebody brings a peanut butter sandwich and they have a reaction to it because they've
never been exposed to that protein before, you know. So it's the sort of the same you know idea that exposure to small amounts of things then does not trigger your immune system when you're exposed to it later in life.
It's the same concept as a vaccine, correct, Yeah, Yeah, and.
The same concept as the olympian who was swimming in the river. Send e that was and a lot of people remember that story. But we were texting you that morning the guy who said he was introducing E. Coli into his system for weeks so that he could built up an immunity. So when he swam in the river said, your reaction talking to you was.
That's what we heard about. There are thousands of streams. He can't do it.
All right, This next question, how long can I keep turkey leftovers in the fridge before freezing them?
Well, I'll go back to the I mean how long did you leave your turkey out on Thanksgiving Day?
I mean did you.
Carve it and then the carcass sat out there for you know, a few hours?
You know probably?
Yeah?
Probably, And if that's the case, then probably a day or two.
Wait, how long should is it? Okay? How long can that turkey sit out? And you're still okay?
I would not have it out any more than two hours?
Two hours and needs to go and then you heat it up obviously, but you said just a couple of days and the free yeah you should yeah, should be well?
I mean yeah, yes.
Well, okay, which foods.
Can you keep past the expiration date?
Well, again, we the conversation around expiration dates is a tricky one because there are use by dates, there are best by dates, and there are by dates sell by dates, and so it is it is a bit confusing. So if you have a use by date, that date should be adhered to very very deliberately, because that is a
food safety date. So if it says used by the use or freeze by this date, that means that after that date you have the potential for the development of a pathogenic organism, so that then could be bad for you to eat. If it's a best by date, that's an indicator of quality, and so you can go beyond that date. Often manufacturers put that date in there because they think that their product will be consumed as fresh
as possible. But if you've got some product in there and it says best buy, you know, December first, and it's December fifteenth, you're fine, you know. And most of those types of products are subject to oxidation, development and off flavors or the texture or the colors degrading. But it's not a food safety Eggs.
I've always so I forgot if it's used by best Buy, but I think it's best by.
Usually eggs are usually used by.
OH, they are used by OH. Really, because that's the one that I think because that is a food safety that that's a that's a food safety issue.
But again again there is if you have eggs that are beyond the use by date, and you're going to cook them thoroughly. If you cook an egg, if you cook an egg, if you cook look an egg, you're going to boil an egg. So and I'm talking about hard boiled. So it's got to be get to one hundred and sixty. Scrambling would be fine because there you will kill the bacteria.
How far past that date are we talking?
Well, eggs, eggs start to dehydrate, you know, so they actually lose their their quality over time. It's hard, it's hard to say again, but.
They lose quality, but you can still cook them to the point they're not going to be dangerous to you. You could, Yes, and the youth which one is it the best by date? Throws me? That's a quality issue. But what am I supposed to do if I have this it's best buy in my refrigerator, But how do I know when that product is no longer safe for me. Right, it might not be as good today as it was two days ago, because because.
If it were to become unsafe for you, there would be a used by date, not a best So it's kind of like potato chips. They have a best buy data and that gets down then to odor flavor.
Potato. Do they get a little green?
Yeah, then the oil oxidizes and you get an flavor. So it's an off flavor.
That makes perfect sense.
Okay, please, I just have one thing about a potato, so sorry. We left a potato in my friend's house that they didn't know about, like above a cabinet, and we wet it and we thought it was a joke. But then we saw an article that said, like people could die from the things that come out of potatoes. Should we be worried that there is a toxic gas in our friend's apartment from a potato? No, thank you Jesus.
Okay, wait, speaking of that, can I eat?
I mean you can get mold growing on it. You know, it's gonna smell bad and everything, But it's it's not a toxic gas.
It's not.
It's been a year in their soul lives.
The questions have you.
Have you gotten rid of the potato yet?
They don't know that.
It's they don't know that it's like their top cabinet.
And they don't smell it.
I don't think so you're worried you were poisoning your room.
That's so business. Okay, good, you're off the hook. What hey, what about dad? What about garlic?
When it starts growing those green things?
Is that okay?
Because I have it doesn't taste as good, right, But if I'm desperate for garlic and I've seen it's already started to sproul sprouting.
Yeah, it's sprouting. It's yes, yeah, garlic, Yeah, it's a bulb and it's it's gonna sprout.
Do the same thing. Yes, And they're okay, that's fine, Okay, good because I've eaten those two.
What's a thing most people don't know but should know?
Wow, that's a tough question.
Yes.
And also you know something Dad, that you told me about when you go to and you can maybe talk about certain countries. Traveling was always a big thing for me and trying to stay healthy, especially when I was working. You gave me a tip that I don't think most
people would know. When I was in Beijing about how I should shower with my back to the shower head so as to not get the water in my eyes or my mouth inadvertently and therefore introducing or at least potentially introducing something into my body.
Yeah. I mean, if you're traveling to parts of the world that don't necessarily have the same standards that we have in the United States, Canada, Western Europe, and the water supply is a little iffy, there are two things. One is the showering piece, don't brush your teeth with tap water. And the other thing that I always do when I'm in those parts of the world is I
only drink sparkling water. When I spent a lot of time in China, we had a bit of an issue with people counterfeiting water, and they would get water bottles, fill them up with tap water and reseal them and then sell them as spring water. And therefore I decided that we would only drink sparkling water because then I knew it was intact from the manufacturer.
Think that's China. And if we can on this one for a second, as far as travel, what are you like A couple of general rules in Mexico and South America or Endurable India. Yeah, like this couple of general things.
I don't eat. I don't eat fresh produce. I don't eat fresh fruit. Everything I eat is cooked, so I make sure whatever I'm eating is cooked. We had an experience several years ago when we were in Tanzania after climbing Mount Kilimanjaro. We went on a safari and we had a beautiful lunch laid out for us at this safari camp, and it was beautiful, and I told everybody.
You know, everybody was really good about not eating fresh fruits and vegetables, and I warned everybody not to eat fresh fruits and vegetables.
But some people did.
At that point, the rest of the crew decided they were going to go ahead and eat it, and I did not. I did not, and Amy did not, but several other people did and they ended up coming down with jardia, which is a water borne parasite.
And Eric yes.
And so Eric was doling out uh anti anti giardia pills to everybody. Treated. Yeah, he's a physician, so he prescribed those.
Licensed to do not a drug clear to prescribe.
Those pills for everybody to take so that they could recover, but it's it's not a pleasant uh syndrome to have. So that's my big rule. I do not eat The only fruit I would eat is something I could peel, like if it were a banana or some something like that.
You gave me such good advice because I was traveling to Sochi, Russia, and I was actually in the middle of chemo, and so I had to be extra careful. And I remember I was there for three weeks and I was so sick of eating bride cooked food. But some people felt the same way. Started I just really want a salad, they would drop like flies. You know,
you might want the fresh produce. It might sound so good and so healthy, but I have seen it happen and you as like my dad said, do not eat anything fresh again.
Is that just a general rule you have anywhere you travel.
Well, it depends on where I'm traveling, Yeah, I mean, I mean if I'm traveling to India or China. You know, no, I'm not eating Mexico. I'm not eating the fresh fruit or vegetables. They're cooked.
This person's future sister in law says it's okay to eat the food that does have mold on it. And just eat around it. I think the right answer is yes, you need to throw everything away. Please advise, throw it away, throw it away.
I mean mold again, you don't know what type of mold is growing on that product. And some molds produce toxins. They're called mycotoxins and they can make you very sick and they can cause future problems, things like afflatoxin and flavotoxin. They are not good for you. So if you do have mold, you should just throw that product away.
I have cut mold off of cheese.
My things. You know your daughter does this.
Right, I'm like, you know again, I'll just I mean blue cheese is is ripened with with mold. I mean that's what makes it blue. I mean those those I eat blue cheese. Yes, yeah, I mean I mean Penicillium rocca forty. I mean it's uh, that's a fine mold, you know, and it produces good flavor and cheese.
What about sour cream?
I've I've like, I'm just gonna take this little top off, toss it and eat the rust.
No, I don't do that.
It's gross. But two, is it not? If you see mold on one part of it, is it fair.
To there's mold spores around. Yeah, they're they're they're they've just become visible.
Now that you just put it like that, I'm not doing it again. I'm done. I'm throwing it out. You have my word. That's disgusting.
You try to serve me that cheese.
I'm like, it's fine, Okay, that's done. That practices. That was a great question, by the way, great question.
How long can cooked food sit out before you need to refrigerate?
Yeah, I think we talked about this a little earlier. I would give it a couple of hours and then it needs to be back in the refrigerator.
It does it matter any hit, no matter what meat, if it's grown something, or a steak or a chicken or whatever.
I mean, if it's been out exposed to the air, you're going to have whatever contaminants are floating around in the air and get on the product. And what you want to do is get it back in the refrigerator and chill down before those organisms have a chance to grow.
I was gonna say, does it matter if you have it out inside or if you have it out like at a picnic where it's warm outside.
Does that change?
Well? The warmer. The warmer the worst. So the warmer it is the less, the less it should be out because again, organisms love, you know, I mean most of these bad actors grow at about one hundred degrees fahrenheit. I mean, you know, they're they're your body temperature. I mean, you're the temperature and your intestines is what they like. That's where that's where they thrive.
Okay, So sitting it in the sun doesn't mean no, it's still.
Yeah, no, it's not going to get over one hundred and forty degrees.
One thing on this Does it matter if it's sitting out on the counter, covered or uncovered.
Well, you know, if it's if it's covered, it's going to prevent you know, extraneous organisms from contaminating the surface.
Cooling down.
But it's still it's still cooling down and it's still giving those bugs a chance to grow.
Okay.
Can you eat cold rotisserie chicken and make chicken sandwiches? And how long is too long to eat the chickens when they have sat under the warmer in the store A.
You know what, it's interesting because it's it's to the point it's already warm.
So that does it's kind.
Of a major food group. I guess with your listeners, which I'm I'm very happy fort eat more chicken. That's all good.
Again?
Yeah, I mean the warmers. The warmers are supposed to keep that product above one hundred and forty degrees. I suspect they don't do that great of a job in doing that. So again we go back before getting at home getting it in the refrigerator. You know, they're usually good for I would say, you know, two to two to four, two to five days in the refrigerator, assuming that you're keeping it cold.
Okay, And does it matter that cold chicken? Again, it got into the refrigerator on time, You're better off eating it hot or cold. It doesn't matter.
It doesn't matter, guys.
Okay, when should you not buy meat?
Wait?
What, I don't know.
Not buy meat when you're not planning to eat it in the next couple of days, unless you're planning to freeze it.
Good, it's fishing.
Fish is the same thing. Yes, fish again, you should buy fish when you're ready to cook it, unless you're planning to freeze it.
Fish in company smell in four days?
I love that phrase.
Where are you.
Well?
You know, Savisa I've eaten savche because it's raw fish and it's marinated with lime juice. So the acidity in the lime juice can help with killing pathogenic bacteria. So I mean acid is a is a killer of bad bacteria. They can't survive below a certain pH or or acidity level. And so savich if it's done properly, you know. But now, I had a very good friend, veterinarian friend of mine who went down to Peru and had seviche and ended up with cholera. So you know, which.
Was in Mexico. That's one of TJ's favorite things to eat when we're in Mexico.
Yeah.
Well, I mean again, if you know how it's being prepared, that's always the question, because if it's if it's I if it's prepared improperly, you're taking a risk. If it's prepared properly, it's kind of like you know, tartar, it's the same thing. If it's prepared properly and handled properly, it's it's fine, but you're taking it. If it's not, you're taking a risk.
Speaking of this is a good opportunity, you're dead oyster.
Rule, Oh my goodness, So yes, Dad, this is a real that's such a good point. I think a lot of people don't know this, But you have an oyster rule. And we were in Mexico and saw oysters everywhere. They were serving them on those styrofoam plates with ice. They were like, it looked so fresh. They were cutting them up in the ocean and then bringing them up to you. We saw people buying them, and I said, my dad would have a fit right now, what is your oyster rule?
I have seen that in Ziewataneo. We've been in Mexico where they were on the beach, you know, getting oysters out and cutting them up and serving them, and there's no way I would eat those. My rule is I will eat raw oysters if the water temperature is below fifty degrees fahrenheit. So if they've come from waters where the water is below fifty degrees, then I will have the raw oyster.
So where would you eat oysters from?
Well, it depends on the time.
Of Chesapeake Bay would you.
It could be Chesapeake Bay in the winter is fine, you know, and then you go up the East coast and you know, going to Canada. You know, normally that's that's fine because that water temperature is going to be below fifty degrees. Same thing up in Vancouver, British Columbia. But again you've got to be aware of the water temperature. But you also have to be aware of the fact that often there can be contaminous that get flushed into
a oyster bed unknowingly. And it's happened where you know British Columbia oysters have been recalled, or you know Nova Scotia oysters or from Cape Cape Cod oysters because there's been an accident, a spill of sorts and the oyster beds get contaminated. Now, because oysters are they're bottom feeders and they filter the ocean, so they are they're only
as good as the water in which they're raised. And I go below fifty degrees because above that you start getting into an area where you could have growth of Vibrio parahemolyticus, Vibrio valonificus.
Or we're just talking about that or Otheribrio organisms are bacteria that grow in salt water, and so they survive in salt water, and the warmer the water gets, the higher the levels.
That's why I don't eat Gulf Coast oysters unless it's like oyster Rockefeller. So it's got to be cooked.
Coast oysters no matter what time of year.
But now I don't because the water never gets hold fifty degrees. However, there are people now that are pasteurizing those oysters and they'll serve pasteurized oysters on the half shell. I've not had any, but from what I understand, the technology is pretty good and they render those oysters safe to eat. But if you don't know if they've been pasteurized or not, you know, then I simply wouldn't eat them.
So they're problem not pasteurized From the guy who's walking around serving them on styrofoam.
That is a very safe assumption.
That's called Monazuma's revenge man.
That was so wild to honest. Dirofoam yeah, diyrofoam plate.
Yep, we actually bought them just this is a fun story.
Yes, to take pictures of us pretending to eat them to send them to DATH.
That was fot. We had a blast with that.
Is organic actually better?
Brace yourselves good one.
The.
Organic better than what conventional is this? Is this the question? I'm assuming that that's the question, and the answer is no,
it's not. In some cases organic products can be more inherently dangerous from a food safety standpoint, because you're using natural fertilizers, which could be composted manures, which usually that's what it is, So it can be composted from hogs, from cattle, can be from from poultry, and if the composting is not done properly, so composting is you know, you you pile it up in a heap, and then it heats the bacteria in the the fecal material that
you composting actually heats up and it kills all the pathogenic bacteria. So then you can spread that composted manure as fertilizer. However, sometimes organic farmers make their own compost and they don't let it go all the way to fully cooked compost, and so then they're spreading this essentially raw manure as fertilizer, which then can contaminate the crops
that they're they're growing. I've always said, you know, organic is fine, and if you have disposable income and it makes you feel better to consume an organic product, knock yourself out. But there's nothing wrong with conventionally raised products either.
Give me the upside to organic besize making yourself feel better.
You just said it help WI. There's no health there's no health benefit. There's no health benefit in eating organic versus conventionally raised per or or meat.
Okay, I don't remember this, then remind me what is the industry's pitch to people for why they should be eating organic.
Is it that they lack pesticides and certain chemicals? Is that what it is that they don't have the same type of.
That I mean that that is the that that is the pitch, and that's why people say, oh, I want to eat it because there's no artificial fertilizers. You know, there's no artificial herbicides, there are no artificial pesticides, so you know, organic product sometimes then has to be treated otherwise. You know, with with bacillis, they in genesis to try to prevent pest infestation because just because it's organic doesn't mean you're free from pests. So organic is more expensive.
Why is it?
Because you get you get poorer yields and you are going to have to call more product because you're not treating it to kill the pests, to kill and to kill weeds around it, so you don't get the yields that you get certainly in from a nutritional standpoint, there's no benefit. You know, from a quality standpoint, I don't think there there's any benefit. And again, if it makes
you feel good to do it, knock yourself out. But I mean, if you're trying to live on a budget, conventionally raised I mean, often people are made to feel that if they eat conventional that they're harming themselves or they're they're they're compromising.
But they're not giving their kids the best nutrition.
And they're and they're not. In fact, conventionally raised products tend to be there, there have been a number of studies tend to be safer from a microbiological standpoint than organically.
Raised Say that one more time for me.
Inventionally raised products tend to be safer microbiologically than organic raised products.
That's wild.
What the actual hell?
That's not what anyone else tells you.
Where are they hiding this information? That's amazing to me. It's a matter of we might be putting ourselves a greater health risk by eating organic because of what you described. If the composte.
I mean, it's not a I mean it's not a significant risk, you know, but it's it's a higher risk associated with those types. It's a higher it's a higher price tag. I mean, you know, the companies I've worked for, we have produced conventional and organic and have no problem. If people want to eat organic, that's great. You know, we get a higher margin on the product, and so it's it's it's good. It's it's good. But but it doesn't make conventional bad.
What's organic? It certainly produced. But are their meats organic meats?
Yeah?
What is an organic meat? By the way, what do they What does that mean?
It's the way that the animal is raised in what it's fed, So it's got to be fed organic feed ingredients.
Should we do free range You're just gonna muddy the water?
Yeah, free range?
Yeah, because free range chicken, free range eggs, like you feel like, okay, well, the eggs I'm eating are from a chicken who wasn't penned up the same way. I mean, I don't happier and it makes you feel a little less guilty.
Maybe even was it happier, don't.
I'm told it was because they got the rome freely.
Well, I mean, if you look at free range chickens, chickens that are you have a chicken house for them where their feed and water is, and then you open the doors. Most chickens are not going to leave that house. They really don't have a desire to go out in the pasture and eat bugs and worms and be subject to attack by hawks and eagles. They'd much rather stay in the house where they've got food and water and bedding. That's where they would prefer to stay.
So free range just means they leave the door open and the chickens have the option of free range in it. Yes.
Oh, they have like a barn that they can stay in, and most of them stay in the barn. Now there are pasture raised. Two pasture raised is they're actually out in the pasture and they're eating the bugs and the worms and the and they're being attacked by the hawks and the owls and the eagles.
So that's good.
Good should be happier, not in my opinion, because I think they're living in a constant state of fear.
Yeah, and that could transfer to you. There's a lot of people who believe you could.
Get stressed meat and that would not be got.
We don't need any more anxiety. I don't need to eat anxiety.
How are you free range? How much more expensive, or free range eggs a.
Lot more expensive. And again free range eggs. Then these are eggs that are just laid in the ground and people go around picking them up, and who else knows what's on the surface of that egg that, what's in that pasture? What was there before? Where cows and they're grazing? Is there are there cow pies all over the place.
So is it really to make people feel better that the chickens are well?
In my opinion, yes, the chickens are no more happier.
I mean this is devastating. It's like finding out there's no East of money.
I mean, this is tough on you, bunny. Free range or what food is scary right now? Cucumbers, carrots, eggs, What foods are scary?
Sprouts?
Yes, spots sprouts number one every day, always raw oysters grown in water above fifty degrees fahrenheit. Uh, you know, if you want some real things. I don't think people should be afraid of food. I think you have to take proper precautions. I mean, one of the things that we always talk about is that there is a personal responsibility in the way that you handle your food, the way you prepare your food, uh, and the way that you store your food. So everybody has a role to play.
I mean, you know we talked about once something leaves the retailer, retailer has no control over it. In the industries I've worked in, once something leaves our facility, we have no control over it. You know, we can control the delivery to the distribution center, to the retailer, to the food service establishment, but once it's left our control, it's under the control of the next step in the process. And the last step in the process is the consumer.
So there is an element of consumer responsibility. So you can't assume that your food is sterile, because it's not unless it's canned. You want sterile food, then you can just buy canned food and you'll be fine. You'll have no risk at all. I mean, you'll be eating a mushy diet, but you know that's fine. So everybody has personal responsibility in the way that they approach, the way that they handle, prepare, and store, and then serve their food.
Can it be on that point? Does it matter when you I don't know, we cook food and then you meat and you get done with it and you just sit it in the fridge. Does it matter in the fridge if you cover it with a luminium oil or put it in some container or not in terms of food safety.
In terms of food safety, it's very possible because refrigerators can be a source of cross contamination. You know, you're putting things in there that then could get fall on the surface of meat or on produce and could actually cross contaminated with Listeria has been shown to transfer within refrigerator.
Wow.
You know.
So if you have a little bit of listeria deli meat, you put it in there, you might inadvertently contaminate some lettuce or contaminate another product. So you have to take that responsibility to make sure that you're properly storing your product. I would never throw anything in there uncovered.
At one more point, again asking for a fight here. That chicken juice, right, You put that raw chicken in there, and sometime sometimes the juice leaks out and gets them to the surface in your refrigerator. How bad is that stuff?
How bad is that stuff? Yeah, it's as bad as the chicken, you know. So, I mean it's just I mean, it's just moisture that that seeps out of the chicken itself. So it's not inherently bad. It's not like that. It's the stew of bacteria. I mean, they're probably more spoilage bactery in there than anything else. So yeah, again, you should not just put a piece of chicken, raw chicken in the refrigerator without being properly stored in a bag or in a container.
All right, that's good. That's good to know.
If you get food poisoning, will it hit quickly like within a day?
Well, again, it depends. We talked a little bit about this. If it's staphf oreus or basilla sirius, it's going to be hours. If it's Salmonella or cample bacter, it could be you know, twenty four to forty eight hours. If it's listerios it could be thirty six to ninety six hours. So depending on what's making you sick, it's going to be dependent on again and the dose.
The incubation period, right, You always talked about that, and that's actually one way scientist figure out what it is you're probably dealing with.
And that's you know, when the epidemiologists go out and question people who've been ill, they'll ask them their food history, and it won't be just what was the last thing you ate, It would be what had you eaten in the last three days, So they can get a food history, and that's how they can begin to determine what's the potential vehicle. I mean, that's how the onion thing came out because a high percentage of individuals who were reporting
ill had eaten a McDonald's quarter pounder. So immediately everybody, oh, it's the beef. It's the beef, and so they tested the beef. They didn't find anything, but then they started looking at wait a minute, it wouldn't just be the quarter pounder beef, it would be from other products. So they were able to narrow it down that these people reported having onions on their quarter pounders, and so that's where they got back to the fact that it was
most likely the onions. Now, interestingly enough, they've done a lot of analysis and they found I think it was an environmental sample and an onion sample of the recalled onions that tested positive for E. Coli, but it was not the outbreak strain. So they've never been able to recover the outbreak strain from anything to do with the onions. Wow, but the epidemiology is such that onions are implicatd I
think seventy eight percent reported eating onions. So they knew it was isn't the ground beef because they went in and looked at the McDonald's cooking procedures and I mentioned they put the clamshell down and it stays down, so the meat was fully cooked, So that's not going to have E. Coli. So it went back to the onions. Then they looked at the distribution of the where the onions were distributed in that matched where the illnesses were occurring.
We use it as a general term so often just food poisoning. But what are we talking about when we say food poisoning. It's it's one of a specific strain of something.
Right, Yeah, it can be a food infection, which would be Salmonella E coli, campelbackter listeria, Or it could be food poisoning which is a toxin, which would be Staph aureus or basilla sirius. I mean that's the difference between poison. I mean it's a generic term food poisoning. Whether you're poisoned by the cells or you're poisoned by the toxin.
If I eat some of the band I get sick ofod' or.
Or it could be neurovirus, which is probably the biggest cause of food born illness in the United States, but because it's so difficult to detect, it often goes unnoticed.
You know we cruise ship.
Yeah, we're focusing on the bacterial infections and intoxications because we can culture those organisms and we can recover them. Nourovirus is very difficult to recover, but the symptoms are so consistent and and it's very easily spread.
I don't hear about it on the land ever, swear.
Yeah, no, it happens.
I don't hear about it the kids.
Like there are famous cases of people going to a banquet, going to a wedding party, and they've actually done studies, uh where you can look at the spread of the virus within a ballroom. You know, where people are sitting down ills and here's here's patient zero, and then all the people around them who subsequently got sick because of the spread of the virus.
Any tip or if you do want to take a cruise, right, I don't. We didn't tell you we have a whole.
What you're going to Alaska?
What is your food safety advice if somebody is on a cruise.
Well, we actually did take my father in law on the cruise several years ago, and my one rule was I'm not eating at the buffet. Yeah, and you know, we were sanitizing our you know, it's not the everybody thinks it's the workers on the cruise ship that make people sick. That's no, it's the passengers that come on were already sick. We've spread it. I had an opportunity to watch a changeover of a big cruise ship down
in Miami. Company I worked for, we were a major supplier to the cruise lines for a variety of food products, and they were asking for some help looking at their their food safety system. So we went down there and spent a couple of days and we were able to see a ship came in in the morning and it was leaving in the afternoon. So we got to go behind the scenes as they were doing all their clean up, their sanitation, and then they're restocking, and it was impressive.
They were doing really good job. Their people were trained, they knew what they were doing, you know, and they're and they're they're frustrated because everybody thinks it's well, it's those cruise ship workers that are making people say no, it's not the cruise ship workers. It's the people that come on the ship.
And you know, when we've gone places and there's a buffet, I always say absolutely not. I'm not doing the buffet because I'm your daughter. But it's funny sometimes at these hotels they get upset. I was like, can I have a menu? Can I just order a la carte? And they really try to push you to the buffet.
I'm like, I don't want the buffet. I want to order a la carte. And it's funny there's pushback sometimes.
Where have we been that there was a buffet? I don't remember.
Book a hotel lobby, you know they for breakfast, they've got a buffet, I can remember already, But no, like a hotel, I always like, can I have the venue?
I always like, I get pushed back.
Did I have a question for you about raw milk? There was actually just a recall and production was stopped at a farm in California Raw Milk LLC. I think, but these are unpasteurized products and R FK Junior, I'm asking because he could potentially be our Health and Human Services secretary. We don't know, but he's certainly nominated, and he has said he only drinks raw milk. What are
the dangers and what are the rewards? I mean, this isn't something that's legal in all states, by the way, as well, but this could and probably will be something a lot of folks are going to talk about if he is in fact confirmed.
Raw milk is quite popular in certain parts of the country. For me, personally, I think it's a mistake. I think it's inherently dangerous. I put it in the same category as sprouts, and I would not drink raw milk. I mean I drank raw milk as a kid because my great uncle had a dairy farm, and you know, they didn't have any way to pasteurize it, so you drink raw milk. Now, the problem today is that people drinking raw milk don't know how those cows are being handled
and how the milk is being drawn and bottled. So I think you're taking a big risk because it is raw, and if you're not properly cleaning the utter of the cow and sanitizing the milking equipment. I mean, when a cow goes out in the field, the utterer's kind of dragging through the grass, and it's going to pick up pathogenic back to here, it's going to pick up salmonel, it's going to pick up ekoli, it's going to pick
up listeria. And so then when that milk comes out, if the surface of the utter is not cleaned and sanitized, and the equipment is being used by multiple cows without being clean and sanitized, which you don't know if they are or not, you're going to have contamination getting into that raw milk, which then can make vulnerable individuals very sick. People are feeding their kids raw milk, which I think
is a very dangerous practice. If you don't know that cow, if you don't know how that milk's been bottled, you are taking a serious risk in my opinion.
Well, and this California specific, this California farm, this is recently in the headlines, actually found like high levels of avian flu in the raw milk, and they can tell us. But the concept is that you could no one had, no one did get bird flu, but it could potentially happen where you could transfer bird flu and raw milk into a human.
You could, you could and there have been a number of dairy workers not very many, but there have been some who have come down with avian influenza working closely with cows. I mean, because avian influenza, that particular flu or that category of flu is quite as neurologists would say, promiscuous, and that it'll recombine rapidly with other viruses, and so you know, pigs, cows, humans, chickens are all good vessels
for these influenza viruses. So you know, I think that's another element of the danger of raw milk.
But remind us again, why anybody, what's the upside, what's the argument for it? For people that use it, they say, I want raw milk because it's natural.
People feel that the heating process changes the flavor. They feel like it destroys certain enzymes and the milk that they feel would be beneficial nutritionally. There's no evidence of that. But again, yeah, the heating to pasteurization temperature, I mean, there are a couple of ways to pasteurize. There's low temperature long time, and there there's high temperature short time pasturization. You know, in Europe they have all the box milk
because it's called ultra high temperature process. It's kind of they zap it up to you know, two hundred degrees and then they so it's essentially sterile milk, and they put it in a cart and its shelf stable in this Most of the fluid milk here is pasteurized a little differently. It's a lower temperature for for a longer time, so it goes through a two bular pastors. Pasteurizer brings it up the temperature, it kills the pathage, and then the milk is bottled.
No, I've never had last one final question.
Do you credit your nutrition and knowledge about food for looking so young?
We save the best for last.
It's called genetics.
But you eat well and you I mean, heck, you ran the Berlin Marathon with me at the age of sixty nine.
Sixty eight sixty nine.
Yeah, so you have to give yourself a little credit with how you've taken care of your genetics.
Well, I mean genetics, and I guess some good luck along the way.
Dad, you like this.
I want to say to anyone who's still with us here, this is so cool because my dad did not know any of these questions ahead of time. He didn't ask for them, we didn't give them to him, and he just I mean, you got an A plus plus plus from me, and we all learned something in this room, and I hope you all did to listening, because even as your daughter who's heard a lot of this growing up,
I learned some things today. So Dad, thank you. You are a wealth of information and some life saving information, even potentially, so we appreciate you.
Thank you for having me