Hey, folks, it is Sunday, February first, and are you an introvert or an extrovert? You might be neither because there is a new personality type that could possibly help you understand yourself or your partner better. And with that, welcome to this episode of Amy and TJ, an episode in which our relationship is about to be improved significantly. Because you have been so excited about this damn story. I don't know anything about it. Let me get that out of the way. I don't even know what this
new personality type is. Please explain.
You're such an outrovert. Oh, it's a what otrovert?
That sounds That doesn't sound rightt otro How do you spell otro.
Otro v e r t otrovert?
Is it fair to say, just based on what I'm hearing? Is it in the middle of introvert extrovert or on the one of the ends?
So it combines both, but it's its own. It's in its own space because otro is Spanish for other and otrovert means one who is facing a different direction. You don't go with the group O trovert O trovert. You often call yourself a disruptor. Do you not.
No, I'm never a disruptor. I sit quietly in the corner. I'm no, no, no, no. I Okay, here's the thing that's true.
Everything you're saying actually reads with what we will explain.
What did you just say? I what do you say? I say, I'm always disruptor?
I'm I'm the disruptor? Why am I always the disruptor? Meaning you don't think like the rest of the group.
Okay, but oftentimes I say that because the rest of the group is white, and I'm in a newsroom and you're trying to offer an opinion that all of them agree on, and I'm sitting over here with a different perspective based on my experience, and yes, and to that degree and other ways as well. The group wants to do.
This, Okay, so listen, keep your mind open.
But this came a mind open.
This has just my jaw has dropped researching this, and I feel like I understand you. I actually feel like something clicked for me reading this.
And we have known each other over ten years, we have been best friends, and now we are in wedded bliss and you're telling me all it took was a damn news article.
I'm telling you that's what it took. This is helping. Okay, So you and I and I think everyone listening. Most of us have had to take a personality test for either a job interview. That's when I took my first one, or sometimes just for fun. You see it online, and so you're told in these personality tests whether or not you're an extrovert or an introvert. I get extrovert every time. I know that's shocking to so many people. And what do you always end up with?
I remember us doing one in an episode. It was an introvert exturaly, it was something else.
It's this think is the squib myers. But you got introvert?
Okay, you you yes, but it's weird. Nobody thinks I am because I'm in front of a camera. I'm out there, out of that.
But not so wait for it. So this term outrovert, by the way, I want to give credit where credit is due, was recently coined by doctor Rami Kaminski. He wrote a book this past year, The Gift of Not Belonging, and he's a psychologist. He's got all these initials after his name, and he went into this because he always felt like an outsider.
So what you're saying to me is a new concept.
Yes, okay, it is a new concept, but it has now gotten a lot of attention because it has resonated. It has resonated with people who now identify like this and people who love folks. So in this episode, we'll talk about what it is to be an outrovert, and then we'll talk about literally advice they give people who love outroverts. It's so fascinating. Okay. So outroverts have a unique relational style. They lean towards empathy and friendliness. Absolutely,
that's you, babe. Yet their sense of being out of place and the dissonance between looking and acting like an insider while feeling like an outsider is tiring. It leads them to withdraw from some groups, and they prefer one on one relationships because and they avoid unnecessary social obligations. That is you would you not agree?
Uh? You said avoid unnecessary I'd avoid the necessary ones. Sometimes I'll skip out on so yes.
Okay, all right, so this is also you. The difference is that outroverts are more comfortable and skilled in social environments, especially when those settings require leadership like a company party or managing a birthday party. You are very good in those settings. You know how to lead a group, you know how to be social in specific settings, and you do it well. You're very charismatic.
I missed something. Can you start that sensati again?
Uh, It says. The difference is that outroverts are often more comfortable in skilled and skilled in social environments, especially when those settings require expression of leadership.
So we're good at doing something even though we don't like being in the midst and doing it.
Yes, okay, yes, okay. So outrefferts are not antisocial, They're not disengaged. They are often extremely observant, attuned, and sensitive to social dynamics, but it can leave them feeling as if they're always standing a step back. They can want deep genuine connection while also feeling chronically unseen, misunderstood, or dismissed in social groups.
I don't ever feel that okay in social groups. Right. This is different from in social group. Say that last sness again again, folks, I am learning this as you all are, so give me that last sentence again.
They can want deep genuine connection while also feeling chronically unseen, misunderstood, or dismissed in group settings. I think you have expressed that to me.
I again, I'm thinking of a work setting. In a social setting, I never feel that, and a social set something I always feel like folks are trying to drag me into things I don't want you to do.
Okay, that we'll address that. This is so good. Okay, here's another thing. You're gonna laugh out loud more. Here's some more. They give a lot of examples, and I've read several different articles. This is so interesting on here's some info on whether or not you may be an an utrovert. Sorry, they are not joiners. They don't join book clubs, spin classes, pta meetings, charity boards, group projects, anything that thrives on one mind steering the collective. Utroverts
will not join. It is not in them.
One mind steering the collective. That's why I don't like to go on vacation with groups. So you know, I refuse. Sometimes I like Sabine, and that's it because I can tell her what to do. I don't.
That's the okay, So you're coming around now to the ultrovert thing. They also say that outroverts don't understand the logic of sacrificing sacrificing a differentiated mind just to conform to the hive. To them, that surrender of individuality is the real heresy. In fact, they make a game of staying at the freight edges of social groups and communal thinking because they want to avoid the hive mind. They do not understand that, but they can count close friends on one hand.
Yes, that's probably pretty true for me. Then the hive mind thing, that's a difficult thing for me. When you see an entire group doing something that it will impact you, that'll be wrong. We've just had this experience recently, and that happens all the time. I need to disrupt this because we're going to suffer for it in a month, a year, or two years. But then I just get exhausted and say, fuck it, y'all do your thing. I do that.
Also, hearing you say that, I've never fully understood it. And yes, we can talk about it on racial issues and racial lines, and that makes sense to me, but this takes it to a whole other level. I can't
wait to read to you this next take. This is from a therapist, and he also now says, I, after reading this research, I am an outrovert and So here's what he said, and I want to see if this resonates with you in anyone listening outrovert's strength lies in refusing the gravitational pull of the group, even when it costs them. He calls outraverse, meek rebels. It's never our intention to rock the boat, but what must be done will be done. If truth asks to be spoken, we
speak it. If a boundary needs to be held, we hold it. Our rebellion isn't loud or showy, but it is guided by an inner moral compass that remains unwavering. In my case, this is what he said. I crossed more than a few lines long before I knew I was an otrovert. I got in trouble, often mostly for pushing buttons that no one else dared to push. I couldn't stop myself when it came to calling out hypocrisy, questioning authority, sticking up for the underdog, or naming social
inequities that everyone else seemed willing to swallow. And in my own life, I was typecast as the troublemaker or the one who wouldn't play along.
Boom, you know what, I don't see that it sounds as if you're almost an intentional rebel rouser. It sounds like like I do this intentionally because I want to shake things up or I can't sit idly by. Why some I'm I'm gonna call out. I am not a caller outer. I do not do it. It sounds like he was hinting might be a little.
Bit more aggressive, But I feel like from a from an ideological standpoint, that is how you operate.
Now, I will sit there quiet for whatever reason. If I'm in a group, I will sit there quiet. Let everybody do the thing. You know, this is my mindset in uh group text change change. If you want to make sure you never hear from me, put me in a group text.
But that's exactly a note divert. That is, that is exactly what they're talking about. And whereas someone like me, I will fully admit I seek validity or validation from groups from a social experience. I want to be a part of it, and I want to I seek validation. You do not.
No, that's true. You talk about that with me all the time.
And it's interesting being in a relationship with someone like that because I operate in that sphere and you don't. And so sometimes we are misaligned in our communication because what I want you don't need, and so what I'm giving like it does it is interesting, and so I feel like this makes so much sense. Now I'm curious
what you think about this. A therapist went in and actually tried to get to understand the mindset behind an otrovert, and they say, you may have learned early on how to read the room, adapt or stay slightly on guard. Would you say that you did growing up well.
Again you as a black man again? You added it in there. We learn how to adjust to whatever room that we are in, and certainly when you do in a big business. Yes, code switching is thing.
Okay, yes, all right, yes, all right. I don't know how you feel about this, the childhood thing. I know you hate going back trying to do, but most therapists do. And okay, part of the work I've done as well.
This is what she says, what did my parents do to me?
Come? Many otroverts come from growing up emotionally unseen, misunderstood, or needing to self contain parts of yourself to stay connected.
To others self contained, ever.
Feel emotionally unseen.
Blast man in America who has time in all seriousness. That is not just a joke. I am this. It sounds extreme, but think of all the shit I gotta I gotta stop and think about my feelings. Who the hell cares what a black man feels in America? That is serious. Nobody. I learned very early on, shut the fuck up. Nobody cares. You Gotta be excellent. This is what Ambassador Young told me at the Paley Center. I
remember this moment just on the side. He said, man, be excellent first, and then you can be as black as you want to be. But you can't lead with your blackness. Yes, so I in a racial setting. Yeah, I mean absolutely so. This is interesting. So there is obviously a psychological element of it. One hundred percent your experience as a black man plays into this. That makes sense to me. She said, your work is not about becoming more social or being different than you are.
It's about finding spaces where you don't have to mask, bend, or shape shift to feel understood. I feel like you've said that to me before.
Weekly, Yes, daily, Yes, possibly. I always say that when I am in my home, in my personal time, if I have to put on in any way, it drives me crazy and sometimes It has to do with who's coming over, what friend group, how big of a crowd, who I got to be in front of, who I have to spend time with, If I have to be on guard in my personal time. It drives me.
But down see, it's interesting because that thought never comes to my mind, Like I don't even consider that or think about that. It could be my whiteness, Like I get that, but this is fascinating stuff. All right. When we come back, if TJ is an outrovert, if you're an otrovert, if you love someone who's an otrovert, experts have advice for anyone in a relationship with someone who if this sounds familiar to you, is an otrovert.
All right, folks, we continue here on Amy and TJSON. Screwy stuff was happening with our audio possibly there, but hopefully you're back with us here. Yes, you're uh the lessons here I some Yes, I would say eighty percent of what you're saying with the ultrovert thing. Yeah, it sounds about right, and it's weird that we yes, we're I guess you have to find personnel, but we're always trying to fit ourselves into something. He's this or he's that, and now we give them a new option.
I think it helps with understanding who you are, and it helps with a person who's in a relationship with you under it because we are all built so differently, our brains are wired so differently. It can be genetics, but it can also be life experiences, whether it's in your family dynamic or in your social dynamic, into what you were born and it shapes how you react to things and people and to yourself. And this just this
hit for me. This resonated with me reading this. It helps me understand in a way that I sometimes I couldn't understand, like why does that bother him so much? Or why is this something he's focused on because it wouldn't be anything I was focused on. This is so interesting.
Why haven't you just given me space to be myself? Okay, so did you need a label? Did you need an article? Did you need a therapist to write this?
I think it helps. I do. I do think it helps. It helps because we are all so different and to just to find something to work, I'm like, oh, I get it. So okay, here's what therapists. I believe the headline was what therapists are begging people who love outroverts to remember, how about this one? I want to see how you feel about all of these outroverts. Don't need to be coaxed, fixed.
Or pulled closer, don't need to be what one like?
You know, hey, like, come on, come over here, do this? Do this with me coaxed, fixed, or pulled closer?
You don't want that fixed or pulled closer. Certainly not coaxed. You know better than that fixed. I don't know if it's something in there about we don't ever someone feel like like we do it on our own. I don't know if that's a part of it. But to have some outside help, like therapy is the thing I don't necessarily came on board with for various reasons, but maybe that plays into that.
All right. What helps the most when you're when you love someone who's an otrovert is consistency, genuine curiosity, and emotional presence.
What was the first one?
Consistency?
Man, Maybe we should continue this conversation off air, no, with some of that thing. If you suggest, like, do you give me all of those things?
That hearing that that is what you need gives me a roadmap, you know, I've said to you, what do you need? How can I help? And you're like, don't make me nervous, But you always say it's not I don't. It's not my job to tell you. So I always feel like a little sometimes like I'm spinning.
Read the last thing again.
What helps most is consistency, genuine curiosity, and emotional presence.
That's not something those last two or not things. I feel like it from almost anybody. And it might be a case where people don't think I need that. People are always trying to read or think I'm this, or think I'm that, or but yeah, that's the if that's something I need. I'm trying to think that's something I can admit myself. What was it? Emotional presence?
Yes, And I think you have mentioned this to me, like if I'm distracted, if I'm looking at my phone, you get frustrated with me because I'm not emotionally present for you, Like I do think that that is something you have complained about to me, and I never kind of put it in this place. And genuine curiosity when you're upset. Oh yeah, I shouldn't defend, I shouldn't reflect, I shouldn't tell you you're wrong or not. No, get curious and I do know this intellectually. But that is what you need.
But isn't that the basics of everybody? I don't find that to be significant to an introvert. That's human behavior. You want to be seen, you want to be heard, you want somebody emotionally present, you want somebody paying attention to you when you are explaining or you're hurt.
So that's that would be advice for anybody, But I think you're saying specifically for people who are it's extra important to them. Like I do think that this is my favorite. Let them take up space at their own pace, listen without rushing to respond. They just need to be met where they are. Damn, I need to like put that up and frame it.
Why does that not apply to everybody? Isn't that base? It's don't we all need and want that thing? You're saying some needed more.
I think some needed more. Think about like you've observed me and my family My daughter is like we interrupt each other, we talk over each other where like we get loud, and I don't take offense to any of it because that's just like boom. You listen without rushing to respond. That is not something I ever grew up doing. You and I get why you need that, but I haven't been around that.
Take it differently, Listen without rushing to respond is different from when I see people all they're doing is wanting themselves to be heard over. Talking is something people do in every conversation, but when I see people who actually are just I need to get this out. No matter what. You know what. You know this because you're a journalist.
What is one of the biggest mistakes you make is looking forward to the next question and not listening to the last answer because you might miss the good shit that is all. And I see that not happening with a lot of people. Just you sometimes look at people in conversations sometime and before somebody stops speaking, you see the other person's mouth actually open up and they're just waiting to jump in to say what they want to say. That's a that's guilty of that.
I am so guilty of that. I struggle with that. I have to fight my tendency to do that, and I know it's not becoming, but I will fully admit that.
For me, it means you're not listening. For me, it means wow. She I could actually finish this sentence by saying, Hey, I'm going to go into the next room and I am going to take a poop on your new sheets. You wouldn't even hear it to go wait what you would just start talking about whatever you're going to talk about. I could say the most outlandish it's so true. So it's that. So if that's an outrovert thing or excuse metrovert.
Yeah, outro yes, And for me, like, yes, it's annoying, but it wouldn't feel as deeply offensive as it feels to an introvert. And I get that. Let them take up space at their own pace, listen without rushing to respond. They just need to be met where they are. That is such good advice. All right, Here's this is the other thing. Some days they may want to stay at the party until it ends, and other days they may not want to go at all. There is nothing to fix.
The most helpful response is support, flexibility, and respect for their changing needs.
Yeah, it's very rare that I want to stay for the party. That's me or go.
Even last night I was like, should we get one more? You're like, no, we should go to bed and I need you in my life for a lot of reasons, but definitely for that because I'm the one who will stay way past the time. She should.
Look, we went hard last night. We did wait, I mean we had folks that has dropped us off, like, hey, y'all go to bed. We gotta get out here. So no, but I I am just not a I don't because so many robes, parties and events and whatnot are end up being obligations for me. Even if this is not my party, I'm not speaking on stage, I end up sitting in a position where I need to entertain. I need to be on. That's the word I use all the time if anything puts me in a position I
feel like I need to be on. I don't want to go there.
I just maybe I understand you now, like a new level, a new level of understanding.
Oh wow, okay, so yeah, No.
I was gonna say, By the way, if you are curious, if you're an otrovert, if any of this or someone you know is, you can AC should take a quiz. You should do this. It's a www. Dot Otherness Institute dot com. So O T H E R N E S s I N S T I t U t E. Otherness Institute dot Com. I made it more confusing by trying to spell it out. Just my apologies, Institute dot Com. Maybe we're about to get on a plane. Maybe you should take the quiz on the plane. That'll be interesting.
Why I've already just you already told me what I am and who I am, and what I'm about, what I feel, what I should think. Yeah, I'm covered.
Just trying to meet you where you are, bab.
Typical, all right, folks, we always appreciate she was so excited about this. I'm so glad we got this in So I hope your relationship is improved now that you understand your mate after reading one freaking article. And with that, we always appreciate she hanging with us on DJ Holmes on behalf of my dear, dear lovely Extroverted Amy Robot. We'll talk to you, als,