Hello. I Mischievous Mark. And I own every issue of amazing Spider man, amazing fantasy number 15, and all of the annual, which I say do not count especially when my c host, Dan, Ga is here, I love to just rub his face in about all the annual not counting, but owning an amazing fantasy 15. And I am the available Alan Sc. I bought amazing spider man number 257 with the Puma on the undercover off spin rack, the summer, I turned 10, and other than a period from late high
school to the end of college. I've read it every week when it's released ever since. I sat out everything late Mc through the Clone saga, and I rejoined India, the the Mack Burn Reboot which was, you know, not a not a great choice. I'm glad to be here, and I do not own these issues because I unlike Mark and dan have a healthy relationship with my hobby, Alan, welcome back. I guess we should say, Dan is currently moving across the country. The last time, Alan,
you were here. You... We... Dan had a baby. So, like, you you are... You are always here when Dan is doing major life stuff. I love having you here. I love having your voice. I love that we can kinda like Gen x together. How how are you doing? How how how's things? I'm good. I'm I'm... I am good. Good, Mark. I'm... And you're looking good, Man, you look like, so trim and tight. You're very impressive. You got a very spider man es ph these days. And I... Like, classic 616,
not not not the others. And I think that's cool. You know, I I realized that I've been coming on the show so long. I said we've stopped saying, like, who I am or what else I do. And so I will... I don't really have anything in the plug, but I'm a critic and writer an editor in these days. I think at publishers weekly, and I also cover jazz for the New York Times, which is not something you expect to say when you grow up in Kansas, reading Spider man. And and I gotta say, I feel a
little bad being here this week. I mean, I'm glad to see you. But, I mean, this week of all weeks. Because this is this is the first episode after the announcement of the news of Z wells is upcoming departure from amazing spider man And and, of course, listeners to the show have been have been tipped that this is gonna be coming. Like like, you guys have made it very clear. This is likely coming. But it'll week like this. I feel like listeners deserve the ex speculations of of dapper, dan Ga.
They deserve that. Not the kind of over at gru that that I will be barn. Dan would have all sorts of clues to tease out about the sketch, of Josh Williamson or Joe Kelly or whoever, and he would have stories about stocking Z wells at the comics shop, and then he would share with us as we're talking at Federal, this issue, he would share with us to complete history of of Bin Riley and psycho semantic goo, and and I'm I'm not doing any of
that. Now well, Alan, all I could say to that is as as someone who who has, like, work in the morning here in the East Coast. We usually record these in the evening. Well I I am grateful for your lack of this desire to just pull out the the conspiracy board and go for 2 hours tonight. So we're we're gonna have a a neat and tidy episode of amazing Spider talk, which of course is the show where 2 fans and collectors uncover the strange. Fun and fascinating history of
the Spider man Comic universe. Thanks for joining us for this review episode of the amazing Spider talk. You like that transition Alan that D, like, well for you good punch punch there. It does. I'm actually gonna pause before I move at the next. 1 because there's 1 more thing I wanna say. Just after you've applauded me for keeping it tight, I'm gonna go off. Before anything else, 1 I just wanna take a second.
And with all earnest and ins, I wanna tell you and Dan, how much I appreciate the work that you guys do? And and I wanna make sure that the listeners understand that it is work. You guys put in the work that the best critic put in. And by that, I mean, you know, the best critics are the 1 who actually think about the books and stories that we looks of and the and the craft of them and think about them more seriously than the rest of us usually do, that I usually do certainly when it come
to amazing spider man. And and I appreciate that you guys actually ask that the time that we spend with these stories, be be meaningful rather than just have it or ritual or just something we get mad at because the continuity is not not what we want it to be. I will admit that sometimes I wonder when I'm reading it out of habit out of ritual. Sometimes I wonder if this week's amazing spider man is really worth the effort of real criticism. And I especially wonder that because it incredibly
difficult. I think for creators like like Z wells or or Nick Spencer to tell exciting engaging in Spider man. It's stories when they are clearly being giving, given as mandates from above, like kill miss Marvel or or or or break up pete and Mj in the most convoluted way possible where neither is at fault, but everyone feels kinda soiled by the whole thing. And so sometimes I'd like why does it really warrant
real critical thinking? And then I listen to you guys, and I always feel enlightened and rewarded afterwards even if I do feel like you guys have been a little hard in the last couple of issues. So as a critic, I admire our respect to the work that you guys put in. But I also appreciate it deeply as a fan who can't always be bothered to put a network myself with these books. And and 1 last thing, I'm gonna... We're gonna proceed in
a second. I promise, I want to point out and celebrate the fact that you both do it while modeling... Despite my joke a minute ago, you both model like a healthy mature grown up relationship with your hobby with your interest and that is wild considering that you both got into this out of some bonkers, Pokemon catch them all collectors mentality that makes 0 sense to me. Well well, well, Alan, first of all, Flattery will get you everywhere and second of. Obviously, thank you. You know,
III joke. I I was you to a couple people who are are not affiliated with the show or Patreon or anything, and I said, yeah. You know, dan, damn my initial c. He's he's he's out. I'm gonna have a real critic on the show now. So I have to... III have to you know, be my best behavior. So you know, obviously, you know, I... Those words coming from you mean a lot. And, you know, as always, we we we have infinite respect for for the lens that you bring to this show.
And I'm looking forward to the next couple episodes. I mean, you know, we loved Dapper. I know like, the Slack is gonna be like, you know, without Dapper or Dan, Mark doesn't go in there. What are we to do? Like, this is, like, you know, this is like, a, a, an orphan ship right now in terms of our our podcast fandom, but, we're gonna have some fun, and I'm
looking forward to it. Alright. If you want to swing along, with Mark and Dan, and occasionally me, the rec wrap of this trio, on our journey through Spidey past, president future, subscribe to amazing spider talk on your favorite podcast app and leave a review to help spread the word about the show. This podcast exists because of the support of our Patreon members, the ones I just insulted
a few seconds ago. If you wanna receive early episodes, exclusive artwork and keeping this podcast going, go to amazing spider talk dot com and consider joining our patreon. Today on the show, Mark and I are going to discussing amazing spider man volume 6 number 52.
This issue was written by Z wells. The cover features aren't with by Ed Mc guinness and Marc, the interior panels feature pencils by Ed Mc and Todd Val, inks by Mark former, Todd Knock and Wave Von Ra and colors by Marc Men and Eric Arc. And, of course, letters by Vcs Joe Kara. This issue was first released on 06/19/2024, And Mark, I believe you are gonna treat us to 1 of your recap.
I sure, Allan alan, and I I appreciate and dance absence that he gives you the names and not me because, I am just a butcher. But let's do it. We open with K you. Now in po form, observing the spider Go versus Cas battle. Nature only has room for 1 of them and only 1 will survive this. We flash over to Norman Os casually wearing his goblin get up Signs the mask, and he's signing over some Os corp subsidiaries to 1 Peter Parker, and you could just smell the Sec
licking at shops. The biden administration is certain to prosecute this in the next 3 to 5 years, especially if mike Merrick Garland on the case. I know he's not Sec, but whatever go with it. However, Os c supporting cast member extra Ka kamala khan on the security cameras, and she's apparently been waiting in the building for an hour. But when you're a longstanding standing member of the amazing Spider man title the way Ka kamala is, did she ever truly leave?
She eventually leaves, which brings us back to Spidey versus cas and Cas tells Peter that his time in the Wink device. Hey, allowed him to see how Osborne is using him and he's going to stop him 1 way or another. Spider goblin, Peter is extra and inc to that and picks Ben up on the glider and rams him into a wall for his troubles. We're now in New Jersey.
Clearly, among the standard and expected venues for the Amazing spider man because that's where hero to millions of Spider Man acts, Ka kamala con does her superhero as an x men tired miss marvel. Kamala sees doc ox arms and takes a swing, but it's actually Kurt Connor in the Act harness along with Doug and Jonah. Kamala asks what's going on and then the walking brain appears and Tells That she's late, but he knows everybody's plans. Peter and Ben are still fighting and the
spider goblin grabs that spear. Peter gets some good hits on Ben and Cas is reeling, but we take a break back to the New Jersey warehouse, Walking brain is giving us a needed expo break where he discusses his osborne worn plans of expanding his empire and signing everything over to Peter. The good guys still wanna know what they could possibly do to stop him as Spider Man is Mia, but don't worry folks, wreck wrap, is back and ready to wang.
1 last turn at Spider Goblin versus Cas and Peter has a tight grip around Cas neck And as he turns and twists, he releases psycho reactive goo, I hate when that happens. That reverses the a Wink device. Hey, and it's Spider goblin no more. Peter thanks Ben, who admits to cra you. He thought he was going to kill Peter and is off to try and stop Os. However, the Wink device, hey,
is still playing games with his brain. He knows he does and have much time, but he's ready to throw down with the goblin and put that spear right through his heart. And that is our recap. Allen. Alright. Here we go. We are in issue 52 here. This is part 3 of this arc, What are your overall thoughts on what we experienced here in this in this exciting 24 pages of comic book? I really do hope it's Spider goblin. No more. And, I mean, I I don't mind Spider goblin. Every I agree with you guys from a
cup... From your previous reviews that is a little redundant, you know, with the the other kind of dark Peter we have recently also redundant with Cas, also redundant with Rec Wrap. It's it's redundant, but I I strongly suspect that part of the job of being the writer of a maze Spider man these days is to generate as many l, like spider variants as you possibly can. It's the new... It's like what covers were in the nineties. You just... We're gonna have a foil spider man.
I can't take much of what's happening in this book. Seriously as an ongoing story arc with themes or ideas that matter or or characters can develop and change in ways that I might most comic book series that I'm reading. In ways that I might with something from image or or like you just can't do that anymore. But as the 950 third, is is that where we are? I don't know how many are there? How many of... I more 09:50. Yes. That sounds... Yes. No. I even more than that. I don't
know. Whatever. Yeah. Close it is. Yeah. We're close to a thousand of these, a thousand stories improvised by creative teams working at a and trying to make it make sense on the fly, trying to deal with all the nonsense. I think it's a pretty fun comment. I I and I can't follow any of the mechanics of it. The spear, the sins, the... None of it, I'm not gonna... And I'm not gonna, like, stick my face in the fan of, like, trying to figure all that out the way that Dan might. But
I don't know, man. I I just found like page to page beat to beat this improved on the last issue, the last issue improved on the previous issue, and 50 was I about a highlight of the run so far. I I don't believe any of this. I don't think any of this really matters in any fundamental way to the history of Spider man, but if there are 952 other issues of amazing man, I can test that at least 600 of them are much worse than this. You know, for me, like, this this
specific issue. I mean, there's definitely, like, some strong middle chapter energy going on here where, you know, it it there is a lot happening, but, like, When you actually kinda, like, look at the playing field at the end of this issue, It's like, the pieces have just kinda moved up the board ever so slightly. But like, with that being said, like, you know, we we we... And we'll talk about this in a little more length later, and I know you talked about it than the
intro. You know, Z wells is nearing, the end of his run here, and I think this specific comic is a testament to how wells has just been able to kinda just keep his story moving. I mean, even if it's not moving in great leaps and bounds. It's it's it's moving. You know? Like, I don't I don't feel like much is like
stuck in neutral or going backwards. This this specific arc Like you said, it it it progressed from from 50 to 51 to here, there is a fair bit of nonsense which I'll get into and you can par it away or shrug your shoulders about it, allan, it's all good. But at the same time, like, III... You know, maybe this is just, like, the low bar of of standards talking. But, like, like you said, it's moving. It's fun. The narrative is staying within con confined so if I think of what
it's supposed to be? I don't feel it's like, going off in any far flung direction. I mean, does that sound like a fair assessment from your end? Yeah. I agree entirely. I feel like nothing in this issue wasted my time in terms of the story it's telling. Maybe the story overall as a waste of my time. But, you know, like I said up been doing this since number 02:57. Every time a supporting character comes in or somebody else prizes that's by showing up, like wreck wrap or the arms
or or what else is going on. It all feels like it's getting somewhere. It none if it feels like like wheel spinning, and it does definitely have a not only a bit of middle chapter syndrome. It has as your your your implying late in the run syndrome. It definitely feels like, like, okay, We're gonna get these toys back in the box, and we are gonna finally pay off Chasm in a meeting. Full away. We are finally to get a maybe either eliminate rec wrap or en ent him
into the supporting cast. Maybe you'll be hanging out of the coffee bean. Things are being taken care of We're gonna finally deal with these sins, whatever is going on there. And I gotta say like that I think 4 times in the history of amazing spider man, the book has entirely spun out and become literally insulting the readers. Like, due to behind the scenes ugliness and confusion, Like, you know, as you guys have covered a a lot on the show, the
defense. France h dabbling stuff, and then, of course, the clone saga, which I just can't wait for you guys to get to. At the Stuff, for and of course, the end of the spencer run, which, weirdly that 1 annoyed me more than all the others combined because, like, it just seemed like we're too late in history for it to be this bad. And everybody's too smart and knows all the earlier mistakes. I was worried that the wells run might be headed toward a similar fate.
Especially when you get, you know, nonsensical convolution like the children and all of that. But no. Not only does this mostly make sense despite the muddled of, you know, the spear and the, all that nonsense, But only page to page storytelling, it's invent. It's vigorous. It's pretty well crafted, and it feels to me like what is the baseline. We... It's hitting the baseline of what I want out of these books, which is it is the work of creators trying to tell the best story they can.
With whatever's going on in the corporate office and with the with the threads they've inherited and the threads that they've developed, they're trying to make it work. III don't wanna sound like I am coming into this with low expectations like you said, but I do sometimes fear that I might be. But as I was I suggesting earlier. I don't think we can really read this run as the intentionally crafted planned from the start, all supplied are paying off, Jonathan Hi style, you know, events that
we would like it to be. But, you know, that has almost never happened, Innovate and Spider Man ever. I can't tell you how many times of earlier issues of amazing spider have been over the decades, we would have a a character like Ka kamala con but necessarily her. Maybe it's Betty Brandt, you know, go into a warehouse, discover something, and then we wouldn't find out what it is, Till next not issue. If we even found out what it is. Sometimes they just forget it. And it feels like
everything's paying off in this. I I respect that And I'm sorry. I'm going on for so long, but I just wanna add 1 other key thought here, z wells. Writes a damn good comic book page. Like I know the man is deeply d tested by the corners of the Internet where people enjoy hating their hobbies more than enjoying them. But you look at the craft here. Every every every page in this comic, teases us a little history pays it off on the last panel connects to the next page in a way that keeps you
moving. And there's real surprises and and tricks in here. I I just... III think it's a really strong, technically proficient, better than competent comic book, but I I don't think it's great, but it's getting there. It's it's as close as we can get, I think with the current region. For sure. III think that's a that's a really great breakdown of kind of where we are in amazing spider man, you know, and maybe me...
You yeah, maybe it's just that, you know, the the the fact that there are lofty expectations, you know, some kind of una unsustainable ideal that's out there. You know, I I, you know, I've been reading this book. III didn't start a 02:57. I've I've been reading this books since 2 97, Alan. So, you know, a little bit after you, and I really can't think of a sustained period of that whatever that ideally You know, Like, this
is this is kind of comics. You know, like, you know, all of all of all of the perfect stuff is stuff that pre dates us by a significant amount of time. So... And, you know, I'm sure it's kind of, like, the cast of S snl, Like, whatever... What... You know, I'm sure people at the time thought, like, that that those books didn't work either. So there you go. Like, what's what's with Dick putting in like, these, like, protesters? Like, what's that about? You know, Like, yeah.
Anyway, talk a little bit about, like, specifically, like the... I I think, you know, the highlight of this comic narrative, of course, is the is the battle between Spider Man goblin whenever we wanna refer to him as and Cas, and and we could talk more specifics about art a little later, but, like, this is where Ed Mc mckenna really shine.
He really... You know, he just really rendered the hell out of the out of these, the fighting between the 2 of them, you know, the the the bolts and goo coming out of ben as he's fighting and, like, just like the the man, you know, goblin es physicality of Spider man here. If if I
had any kind of complaint here. It's just like, you know, like you said, there's clearly some like putting toys back in the box and trying to get some resolution with Ben, but it it's hard for me to say that this has been truly earned in any kind of way. I mean, like, this character kinda just had a change of heart, a couple of issues ago, because he went in the Wake device and then decided out. You know, I'm I... I'm just gonna make my life my own now, and he's kinda helping,
Peter. But, like, he keeps qui jokes like, oh, yeah. You know, I... I'm gonna help him, or maybe I'm just gonna kill them. You know, it's just things like that, And and it just it kinda just shows us
uncertainty with the character. I don't know if that's all Z wells or it's just, you know, maybe like you say the powers that be kind of trying to keep the door or window open for Ben to do something heinous in, you know, 6 months from now, Who knows I I would have loved a little more cleaner of a resolution here since that's kinda seems to be what they're implying. But like, otherwise, this is this is fun stuff. It's a fun battle
It's it's Peter and his worst. I mean, like, I'm I'm kind of, like getting over the trauma or whatever you wanna call it, if you will, of of Peter in the state but I'm also just enjoying the hell out of this fight between the 2 of them. I mean, did you have any specific visceral reactions to what you saw on the page here with with those 2 was called, Dan. This or I did call you, Dan, And now I'm gonna call you Alan. Do you have any kind of visual
reaction to that, Allan? This is gonna be a hard habit to break. As hard as we and the world are on the spider office. I gotta say, I bought... I've been buying an amazing spider man in digital form for most of the wells run. And certainly through the Beyond run. But 50 51 and 52, I thought in print because it's just too gorgeous. Like, it's so it looks so good. That first 2 page splash, I often think 2 page splash are a waste to space. But but no. That is exactly what we
need. Wells does such a good job of writing into the strengths of writers. And and I I guess part of why, I am maybe not the person who should be here. You should have Dan here because Dan can talk to you all about how the character of Cas doesn't quite square with where Cas was previously and in the various, how Lo eve mini series, which are pretty fun by way. I read those on limb. Those are good. Yeah. I really don't get too caught up
in that. I'm much too conscious, and maybe this is just from years working at magazines and newspapers. I'm just too self conscious of like, they got this book out, and it looks this good and it's this fun. Good job, guys. Yeah. So I all IIII apologize that. Yeah. I am entirely with you that the Cas characterization. I I don't follow it. I don't follow the Wink device. There's a lot of taking your word for this, amazing spider man,
you know, going on here. But when it's done with this level of enthusiasm, and it's also, it feels to me like it's not incomprehensible. It feels to me like a couple of boring beats. That we all know are coming are just being skipped past. Like, we're not getting, you know, a flashback showing us showing us that that, oh, we'll talk about this in a bit. I'm sure that that Spider man and miss Marvel once made a
plan. We're not wasting a couple pages showing us how exactly Cas got to his kind of new kinder gentle self. Instead, we're we're just getting stuff, we all know what's coming done with vi and enthusiasm. And I I am all for that. I don't understand Spider Goblin, like, physically what it even is. I I, I've never been clear on where mask ends in goblin face starts like, that's always been very confusing to me.
Throughout the entire history of this book. And here where there's a goblin mass or face on top of the Spider man mask. And if that's that goblin mask is capable of, like, per true go expression, like like as for Peter Jackson's workshop, none of that makes a bit of sense to me. I am happy to hand wave it though. But as good as wells is at writing to particular artists. I do feel like the this story is is kind of at a should be at a level of intensity
that it's not. This this fight is nowhere near as intense or as as dangerous, you know, as, like, fighter Goblin does not seem as dangerous as just Peter when he was mad with the goblin Sins as you guys have already discussed in earlier episodes and certainly not as brutal or terrifying as in the last issue or in any number of, like, great venom issues over the years or god even punching fire lord out
so long. Like, he he just the cartoon ness of Mc art is delight full, but I also... I I do feel like it doesn't always quite serve the the stories level of ferocity. I also think part of this too is just that I don't wanna say we're, like, numb to it per s. But like you said, I... Like, and we... And Dan and I were talking about this you know, last issue as well. You know, we we we got this version of Peter done better during the Gl arc
a couple of months ago. It's kinda hard to replicate it, but then, like, you know, just in terms of the beats of this story specifically and how it how it works with Mc art. I mean, like, you know, he he he he kinda dismantle the the sinister 6 and the last issue. And in this 1, like, I don't know. Like, yeah. III never truly bought that he was going to do anything that bad to Cas, if you will. You know what I mean? Like, it just... It
just... It felt very well telegraph that it, you know, whatever, you know, despite sometimes the words even on the page, it just wasn't gonna go into that dark side. So, you know, like, it's it's it it's certainly... You know, it's certainly a flaw of how the overall story progresses because you... You you kind of, like, you know, you're sitting there being like, okay, What's gonna be the Mc or whatever. In this case, it's psycho reactive goo. Which I was unaware of its powers.
I don't know if that was established at any point. I'm sure, you know, if Dan was here, he would tell me, And if not dan, someone in our Slack would, that's why I don't go in there. No. I kid. A kid. It was just kinda like, alright. Yeah. You know, What's I was... Cas gonna get his way out of that, You know? And and he did, and and we and we kinda move on
with that. I did wanna talk a little bit about Norman Osborne born here, the Osborne born dia scheme, which look, And and hey, I'm not necessarily saying III want the exposition on this, but, like, it just seems like, what we're finding out here if part of his master plan is he's he's giving... He's he's signing over subsidiaries of Os corp, to Peter Parker. You know, he's doing this. Like, on the phone while he's in full goblin gear, which
is curious. Like, you know, he's not even really hiding it, although, you know, he is in his office, So I guess, no 1 can technically see it. But, like, we're not even getting, like, the the char from him anymore. Like, it's just he's just full blown goblin, and he also wants the spear, And I'm, like, I'm kinda forgetting to, like, why does he want the spear so badly at this point? I'm not sure. But, like, yeah know I mean, do you have any suspicions about certainly, like, the plan in terms
of giving the businesses over to him? I mean, do you see this as you know, like, my mind went to... You know, we've had stories over the years of, like, Norman trying to make Peter, like, his air of sorts. Do you think it's some of this, do you think there's something else going on? Or do you think, like, we're gonna find that out another issue and stop worrying about it, Mark? I am hopeful that it's a because we've spent several pages on it when there's only 20 pages per book and 2
of them are a giant Cas spread. I I'm hopeful that it's building to some thing. I I also... You know, I am not a summer child anymore, Mark. I am not going to believe that is building a something big and surprising. That's it, I am hopeful and I think that there is reason to be hopeful that Z wells is doing more here than just killing some pages with with a little bit of corporate school Doug mystery.
What I surprised what's me about this, though, And what I what I appreciate in this comic is that, yeah, I don't know what's going on with the spear? Why I can't say that enough times, but what's going on with Norman by these shell companies, how Kamala is figuring out. Going on with norman and all of that. All of that is really clear and on the page in a way that I think is honestly rare in Spider man history. It's not just teaser or teas or teaser about something that may or may not pay
any a year. Right. No. For sure. Any any any thoughts on on os just being, like, in his full on goblin love or, I mean, it... You know, or do he you just feel like, yeah, Of course. He's he's... That's where he's at right now. I I, you know, like... I mean, there... There's interesting stuff happening here, I think where, you know, it it feels like the book is both suggesting that no. He's full goblin.
Also, wait, this might not be the real norman os, and also, wait, we might not just be reverting back to the class. Norman Osborne status quo. And I... I'm not teasing out the hints. I'm not I'm not I'm not dan. I'm not gonna tell you how this jacket kindred is where. It looks like 1 Mary Jane Moore once.
No. I'm not doing that. But there's hints here that I think this might actually be building to something I think 1 difference between the book right now, say, in period of the spencer run is that we have more to talk about than just the intents. Okay. I'm gonna segue Allen, You know, if you were to say wanna relive the the multi tier analysis of of hints and teaser. A place to do that would be our amazing Spider talk Slack, I mean, I wouldn't know because I'm there,
like, once every 4 months or so. You know, if Dan hasn't already announced in the Slack, which, you know, knowing him. He probably just did like, a drive by and, like, tags me or whatever. I do wanna admit or or not admit. I wanna I wanna reveal that everyone who follows us in the Slack elsewhere that we're gonna be covering ultimate Spider man on this podcast going forward. That's
right. That is right. Ultimate Spider man, the book that everyone seems to of, I said, now, people are starting to turn against it. I saw recently Because they feel like Mary Jane doesn't have enough to do. Can you believe, Allan? They're turning on it. They're turning on a spider man book of Anytime we we talk about this in a subs stack or whatever y'all love it. And you always wanna talk about it on the Slack. We're we're through the first sac a
volt the first arc of ultimate. We're gonna start on the second arc, of reviewing it issue by issue. The way we do with Asm. Lord helped me, Alan, what do you think about Ultimate Spider man? I've only read 2 of them so far because other them amazing Spider man, I pretty much only read marvel on unlimited. And the first 2 missions they were really
strong. I enjoyed them a lot, but not enough to go out and buy them as they're coming out monthly, And also, I mean, I just kinda feel like, this is like, a third or fourth series we've had where there's a Married Peter and Mary jane in the future. Man I expect he's building it to somewhere interesting and surprising. He always is, but I don't know, man, maybe you guys could support some of those earlier books if you want this so much. And there there you have it. Alan Allen
Alan chimes in. So wait for that on the podcast. In the meantime, if you wanna buzz about this and our Slack, it's free to join. It's full of great conversations. It's not like toxic like Twitter or not yet at least. Give a time. No. I'm kidding. I'm kidding. Slack is rate. Alright. Alan, let's go back to our review here. Great I do wanna talk about what I will refer to as the B cast. Allen. I'm I'm gonna I'm gonna reveal some sausage making here before this show.
You more or less said that you had some choice words for how Dan and I tear apart, long standing, a supporting cast member, Kamala khan and her integration into this book, This is your soap box. I'm setting it up for you. Let me have it, Allen. I I mean, I don't want Gen x on you guys, but we have no Dan here. So, you know, we may as well let it smell like a La Palo loser in here for just a moment. Do you do you remember like, the nineties, like, when you might, like, turn on, like, David litter
energy. Oh, for sure. And they do Ben or Joey Judge again. Yeah man. Love me so Joey. About a few guys. Giving you guys car I I thought it was very very funny. The first few times you guys did the longtime time recurring cast member Kamala con, because that was a really good gag. And and and she was shoe horn in originally. But that was like what? 26, 27 issues ago.
And and she's back and she's being written in character and it's clear that the creators are trying to make up some for the way she was handled last time, maybe because of criticism like your guys. And it's also that it's building to something, and it also just, like, makes sense for her in a story where Peter has alienate, all those other superhero friends. It hasn't really made up with them yet, that impression of young kamala On who he's teamed up with several times in this book
at it hers well before this. It makes perfect sense that she, a young science genius who's certainly could be, well, not genius, but she's good. Certainly could be, you know, an internal of Os corp that that she might be into this and that she might be keeping trust on what's going on in Jersey City and that she's worried about the superhero community. I mean, yeah. It was ridiculous that she was killed in the book but that doesn't mean anything to me in the way
I tend to read these books. And the way I tend to read, endless ongoing corporate comic books that don't have a strong author intent, like Ryan North fantastic 4 I don't read this way because it's clear that Ryan North has been given total freedom to do what he wants to do. But when I reading something like Asm, or I read it in the permanent present of the current issue. And in the permanent present of the current issue,
she's here, it makes sense. She's here. And welles is writing her doing the kind of smoothing stuff that might go to Mary Jane, might go to Betty Brand. Might go to somebody else sometimes. Might go to black cat. But here it's going to her, and it doesn't feel unnatural to me. So to me Welles is taking the wide approach here. But the kind of thing III remember argue on this show that I wish writers would take factor and spencer run.
You can call it a re comm on, you can call it a slight of hands that Kamala con is in the book these days. But he's doing a better job of it than the book did 25 issues ago. On He's making better stories that didn't work earlier in the run. He's building on them to make them better. He's not like going back and attacking the foundations of them with some complicated convoluted continuity fix. I like that. I can just hear Dan saying utter. He's a the raven and no,
except he says unearned. The 20 pages just per issue, I don't need miss Marvel it's Either man in a flashback scene. Let's meet here when Norman goes bad 1 day. I'm not saying this is good comic book writing, but I'm saying we've had a lot worse. Spider All, all I'm going to say in terms of your joke about my inability to let my about long standing, supporting cast member come out Con is, like, you know, much like Norm Mcdonald telling an O j joke. I just gotta go for
it every time out. I mean, like, that's that is, you know, this is my generation, and I I will refuse to, like, not let the bit, and go down. You know? So be... I will be gru say you're right that, like, this is clearly the status quo, She is a part of this story, it has been consistently so at this point. Like, whenever we bring in the Oz corp hi jen. Ka kamala is there. So you know, we gotta let it go.
But, you know, like, that's what Nbc said to norm and then they fire and from weekend update and made them a Par mariah. So I mean, like, you know, like, what... What are we gonna? With all that being said. This has nothing to do with who the cast members are. But I do kinda feel like the the the b cast here, their their narrative is kinda stalled out a
little bit. In this book, especially, you know, we have that that that huge reveal with in in 50 with, like, the living brain becoming the walking brain and, like, it's just... It it it kinda just feels very much like, you know, chapters 2 and 3 of the Lord of the Rings movies right now where they're just kinda walking up a mountain. Together and not really doing anything. You know, I'm I'm insulting that trilogy now. I don't
know. Do you do do you feel like there is still momentum with this with these characters because, like, I got... I just gotta feel like they're all sitting around like, you know, talking to each other is sharing, you know, doing exposition and not much up. Like, I'm not I'm not getting a sense of what the action is here, and what what what role they're gonna play outside of just kind of being like, false Rose K and
Gil scene right now and observing everything. I said earlier that Z wells writes it's a really strong comic page. And he's written some really strong issues of amazing spider man too, and he's written some great stuff before amazing spider man like stuff. You know, just like Spencer. Stuff that is just like, uni so good that you should put that guy in amazing Spider man. A lot of times, he rides great pages and even great scenes, but, you know, the issue itself
doesn't quite hang together. And structurally, you know, this issue is a fight that should be the most exciting thing. Enter cut with a gathering team, you know, like, getting everybody back together from earlier in the run, surprising people you don't expect to show up. And the 2... It it just feels like kind of dis distorted like, these 2 threads aren't nearly as
exciting as each other. And when you cut from something very exciting to something incredibly mundane, but come from something incredibly exciting to something goofy as hell and maybe not that compelling. You're, George Lucas territory. Not more to the rings my friends. The walking brain is like, okay. Here's what's going on. Os warren is giving his subsidiaries to Peter, and it's like, Yeah. We already saw that, like, 10 pages ago. Like, we're we're we're recap
what we've already seen. So it's not even like their, you know, they're revealing more parts of the narrative of the drive forward. I just kinda feel like everything is just kinda stalled on that thing. And and it's funny because I said earlier in this in this podcast like, oh, you know, Zed is doing a great job kinda of moving the pieces forward And I think when it comes to, like, the Spider man action he is. But, like, III definitely kinda feel like there's some wheel spinning going on
here. At the same time, maybe the appearance of rec wrap is what's meant to kinda to charge that up. Because, obviously, like, you know, wreck wrap showing up. And, like, I gotta say, it it cracks me up every time. I go back to whatever his first appearance issue, 16 or 17 or whatever it was, and then, you know, dapper Dan saying, rack reps great. I never have to see him again. After this. Z wells in the spider office are just like, hold my beer.
You're to get, like, 2 more arcs with him and now he's gonna like, figure into this, like, Magnum Opus storyline with Norman and the goblin and all that, that is that is my hope right now is that Rec wrap is gonna be kind of the the the the charge because otherwise, this this battery is kind of running running on empty right now. You seem delighted by Rec wrap, What what what did what did... What did you think of that whole sequence?
I don't think I'm delighted by Rec wrap, but I was feeling a bit of the... Okay, we got everybody together what's gonna happen, and what's gonna happen. And instead of something happening, it's more people showing up. And, you know, that's that's the spider verse problem. In in the comics, not in the movies. And the movies things happen. And the spider worse comics as you guys have pointed out many... Times, you get a whole lot of spider people stand around. And, you know, that's kind
of what's happening here. He didn't burn too many pages on it. Yeah. I agree with times you. It is redundant to have the walking brain, you know, explain what we just read 10:10 pages ago, when we haven't explained psycho reactive goo. You you know, when it it's... You know, that like that... That's not explaining a psycho reactive goo is is kinda like, if you made a pope cartoon, but the first 1 ever, and just didn't bother explaining the spinach. Like, it's just in there and you're just like,
people will go with it. And that's what I'm doing hear. I admit. He didn't he didn't waste more pages on it though. Like, I I feel okay with it, but rec wrap is This this is the best thing I can say about this part of the wells Run. Every other time I've been on the show, I find myself constantly saying, Well, it feels like maybe it's trending the right direction, maybe it'll work out. You know, Rec rap is the only thing in this issue. I feel like I can
say that. About. Everything else feels like it is going in the right direction and that there isn't an in game in plan that I can't quite see what is, but I feel like, okay. You guys know what you're doing. Rec wrap is a true wild card. I would love it if he is. It killed and then just has a a long life as an unlock costume and video games they'll I'll never play.
Yeah. And and definitely, again, you know, some akin to what we were saying earlier in the show indicative of the fact that this is kind of the the the final Swan song for a creator here. He's he's bringing out all of all of the the... Please playing the hits. I I wreck rep being a hit, your mileage may vary. You know, I... I'm a big Billy joel fan, but I I... Test Allen town. I know some
people love Allen town. Wreck wrap might be Allen town to people, you know, some people are just gonna stand and cheer, and I'm just gonna be, like, You know he wrote this about a long island town and then just changed the name. Right? I... Whatever. Just 1 more digress direction in my career as a... Journalist and critic. I once interviewed Billy Joel because he donated a couple thousand dollars to a jazz club during Covid. And I got on the phone with him and talked to him for a couple minutes.
And he gave a long answer about why he loves Jazz in New York city. And I said after he was done talking. And I said, that was really well said. As I'm, like, ready to take the notes as fast as I can. And he says, Alan, I'm. Cut that out if you want to. I just wanted to tell. No No. I I... That must stay in everyone. This is this is the new world order. If anyone cuts that, you're off the show. Alright. Alan, we talked a bit about Mc earlier. Again, I thought his spidey cas stuff was
great. However, I I... This is I'm gonna ding this issue a little bit. You know, we've been dealing with this kind of, like, dual artist thing with Mc guinness and and Todd Not doing, like, the the living brain stuff. For the last few issues. And for the most part, I've kind of liked the the the, the dichotomy of the styles. And, you know, maybe this is just reflecting the fact that, like, I really did not enjoy the B cast moments of this book, but, like, for the...
This really felt it felt kinda dry and dr to me. Artistic as well. The the the having the 2... You know, like, I think Mc was blowing him so far out of the water that it just, like, the fact that you had 2 distinct styles within the same book really felt apparent here. And and and as a result, kinda of felt a little dis joint in jarring to me as a reader. Did did you... Did any of that come through to you or is it was it just kind of akin to what you dealt
with the last 2 issues on this. It it it felt to me like going from an incredibly exciting and well directed widescreen screen action movie, like like Fury Road, 2 like an Mcu show. Where we get a lot of people standing around and talking. And... It's not bad. It's it's technically fine. It's proficient. He's doing a good job. I keep... There's, you know, I don't know what... How much better he could have made that
stuff. You know, there's a lot of words there's a lot of ideas, a lot of characters, a lot of weird concepts. That I I don't know that you could get all that in there and have it be coherent if it were more exciting. It should be a little more. I mean, the living brain stuff has been pretty good all along. I thought. Jonah, in the arms should be more prominent, more exciting, more surprising, more fun, because that is a crazy concept that I think is being a little too underutilized here so far.
Alright. Well, Allen before we we kind of wrap up this this conversation and and and give our grades. I did wanna, you know, talk about the other, you know, 800 pound really in the room and we've talked about it we've referred to it a few times
already this episode. But, like, you know, obviously, we are in the the endgame of the Z wells run here, Marvel announced earlier this week when as we're recording this, that, Z is gonna be leaving the book after issue number 60, which is gonna be his last tombstone story, but you know, Dan, of course, claims he had the inside track on this all along. He's been telling me for the better part of a year and a half. If he's gonna leave around 60. So, I mean, you know, God bless you, Dan.
I don't know who you who has those kind of rumors like locked and loaded, but Dan Ga and has them. Me on the other hand, you know, like, IIIII wasn't necessarily, like, you know, tracking it that closely. I I actually, I'm like, I'm thinking to myself. Wow, he... He's been around for. 60 issues plus beyond. I mean, like, I I kind count though is is being kind of an extension of this run. Like, it's a pretty run. He certainly has had an impact. And we're not gonna get into the full
legacy of it. Certainly through the prism of of this arc, but also just overall, and what what are what were your thoughts on the dev news and do you have any thoughts on who could possibly take his place or want to take his place on this. Book. I have thoughts more on the ladder than the former. I I wanna preface this by saying that, I feel like every time I've come on this show ever. It's been post superior. Except for the end of dispenser run. I'm always sound in a note of cautious optimism.
Guys, I I think the might be getting better. III think we might be getting to where this is like a consistently good and engaging and exciting book again. This And I think Zed wells has brought us closer to that than anybody else. And and I worry sometimes, you, reading it that maybe this... Issue which I think is pretty good. Maybe this is about as good as it's possible for an issue to be the way marvel is doing things these and that's nothing against Z wells.
I think a lot of the people online who who who performed their hatred of the Z wells run with such Z. I think that what they really hate is the status quo that Z wells is working with, and they blame him for them, which to me is, like, blaming the guy who who puts your chipotle together for the quality of the stake. You know, it can only work with the ingredients
he's given people. We've had 2 long inconsistent freedom frustrating controversial runs in a row, and they've both come from smart talented comics writers who both clearly struggled with the pace of writing Asm. They've struggled with the need to tie in and generate big events. And most crushing, I think they've struggled with the need to write to editorial mandate, You know, to satisfy the the Ed set down by corporate... Bosses who I presume
are above the spider office. I don't think Nick Lowe is the reason Peter is not married to Mary Jane people. Bosses And I think Wells has handled this pressure better than Spencer did. And he's written some strong issues and stories and a load of great scenes and paid. Even when the issues and stories have been a little iffy. But I think that Poor z wells run was doomed from the start for reasons that is aren't his fault.
And and this podcast interview with with Cody Z confirmed what a lot of, I think smart readers already suspected. It's not Z wells or even the fighter office who makes the story decisions that fans hate. So my guess, credit and this this is speculation. My guess is at the first job for the new writer of amazing spider man after Spencer, after Beyond, My guess is the first thing you had to do when you got that job was to submit a plan to break up Peter and Mj again and then work
that. Plan over and with the spider office and and and make it in a way that doesn't involve satan and doesn't involve either character being bad to each other. And, like, that's where they started wells. That's the trap he was started in. How do you break them up with neither character or b fault. And and and that's how you wind up with story decisions like Paul, like Mary Jane with random mask kids, like like time displacement.
Like all these random and un unsatisfied convolution that are so off emotionally and so far removed from what any reader once out of Spiderman man book that the Spider office took a year and over 20 issues to even reveal what the status quo was, Probably because they knew everybody was gonna hate that that much. And so now Z wells gets death threats just like Dan slot used to get death threats. And and and that's the kind of thinking that was how we got to In the
first place. That's the kind of thinking this that's how we got jackpot. An idea that seems I I can't think about it an idea that feels more like a dumb note from an executive than Jackpot. And and Jackpot, as you guys know, has been... It around in his books for, like, what? Almost a decade now without anybody ever committing to the idea that they introduced their that. Free comment but they day and like, I don't know is a Mary Jane is no. I don't know do you know reader.
They're sadly these writers with terrible ideas and then letting the writers get torch and roasted online for it, and not even sticking up
for the writers. So how can a writer tell a compelling and Peter Parker story when they have to do so much ugly stupid brand management and generate all of these slot like alternative Spider man for future brand exploitation And it's a miracle that Wells has told as many good stories as he has, despite inheriting things that that no reader likes, like Chasm or no reader understands, like the Sins of Norman Os. And and I'll just add this.
Remember how Dan and I were so excited that Kelly Thompson is gonna be writing some issues. And then her beyond issues, you know, they were okay. They they were fine. And Dan and I were raving about all her other
marvel work. In the couple years since Kelly Thompson wrote those kinda beyond issues, she's been nominated for multiple is nurse, like so many eyes this year, all for great book, including birds of prey over at Dc, which deals with the Batman universe and its own impossibly convoluted continuity In this year's Is nominations, Dc has 4 books nominated for best ongoing series. Marvel has none.
Marvel also has no series nominated in the mini series category in the new series category, and that's not the fault of marvel's writers. Whatever is going on in the Spider office, whatever's going on at Marvel, Kelly Thompson can't write a good amazing spider man here. Kelly Thompson. And she's like the best writer in the game right now. That's not the phone of the writers. That's something deeper. So I feel like seizing the cursed shallow that is amazing spider man as a writer.
Might not be good for your career. I don't know if any of these guys are gonna wanna do it. I think writing Mason spider man is like being a woman and a star war like, sure you get paid, but dudes are gonna rain hell down upon you for the rest of your life. Well, said, all I will add to that is...
Chip Sad would rather write batman and deal with that pressure than write another issue with Spider male because people always like, you know, Chip, he did spectacular and he had that, you know, that 1 big is issue towards the end of his run. Why why can't they get him to do it? He doesn't wanna do it. And and, you know, yes, some of that is pointed towards the fans, but I'm sure it's a lot bigger than that, and the bottom line is, like, if
you... If you're if you're not gonna get people with that kind of talent to wanna commit to doing a book like this, then this is the run that we're getting right now is prop like you said is probably the high watermark of what we should expect at this point. You know, if you could just kinda un yourself from the the the rage bait that, you know, certain solicit, get out of you or whatever, Like, just...
These are just kinda straightforward stories with some weird status quote shifts because, you know, reasons, but for the most part, the action itself is pretty much just like, well, Spider man does this does this and then this happens. You know? Like, it's not... It's it's it's not gonna be much more complex than that anymore at this point. So, yeah. This is where we're gonna be at. Alan, anything else to add to that or we wanna do our grades here? I I feel like I went from mister positivity.
To mister nothing else matters anymore. You know, that's that's... But amazing spider man will do to you over the... Mean, you know, you are you are the all alt... Singing all dancing, shit of the earth or whatever. I mean, you know, Jet x. Yeah. Come on. This is this is... You are the you are the generation of nihilism.
All I'll, just make 1 more Gen x affiliated analogy, I felt like, you know, during the spencer run during beyond that it was, kinda like when the Simpsons hit seasons like 13, 14 15. Where I'm like, I don't know. Maybe it's getting better. It's And now it's like, I don't know. The Simpsons never at least leveled out the way this run has. So, you know, good good for you. Is that Wells Run, you are better than late era Simpsons. There you go. That we we at least
you're better than late era simpsons. Alright. I'm gonna give a grade here. I'm gonna give this a b minus. I mean, Allan, maybe you think that's too harsh, but I think that's a respectable score. That's where... I it's a be behind in this book. Well, you know, you're you're you're more than passing. What what do you think, Alan? I'm going to go be because of 2 factors. 1, Z wells just continually writes a good page.
Every page in this book is a really good page, except maybe that late 1 with everybody confer right before Rec wrap is a introduced, but That 1 builds to the introduction of Rec wrap, and it does, if you look back at the page, it's it's it's pretty it's pretty nicely done despite some redundant. Dialogue.
The other reason is the thing I mentioned earlier that it feels to me like the book is not going to skid out into an unread mass for a couple issues, like it has done all those other times before. So, you know, great. It feels like we're not gonna have to have a bunch of continuity clean up mini series after this is done. Welles is, like, you know, he's like, what I cook. When I cook in my house, I clean up after myself, Thank you, said. Welles, you're clean up after yourself. B
baby. Very nice, very nice. We we all should wish to have a significant other who cleans up after themselves when they cook because that's not me. Alright. It's that time time for all good things to come to an end. So we wanna say thank you to you. The list centers and viewers for tuning into this episode of the amazing Spider talk. And, of course, thanks again to available Allen for filling in for Dan, Alan, you are such a delight to have on this show. And, for all we know, there
might be more. So I'm not gonna make this sound like it's 1 and done. You know, Dan, Dan driving. He was at the Grand Canyon today apparently. Maybe he's just gonna stay there for the next month. We don't know. So Alan will we'll... You know, we're not saying goodbye. We're just saying, thank you for this time, and maybe we're gonna be thanking you again in 2 weeks. This podcast
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