Too many I'm mischievous Mark Gianacchio, and I own every issue of Amazing Spider-Man, Amazing Fantasy number 15, and all of the Amazing Spider-Man annuals, even the transition ones. But I still think all of them do not count. And I'm Dapper Dan Gavazan, and I own every issue of Amazing Spider-Man, including those same transition annuals.
which I say definitely count. I mean, Amazing Spider-Man Annual No. 20, how could you forget it? But for me, Amazing Fantasy 15 remains a fantasy. Yeah, I mean... Talk about a transition book. Amazing Fantasy number 15, right? I mean, you know, what happened? They didn't even address 14. Anyway, welcome to The Amazing Spider Talk, the show where two fans and collectors uncover the strange, fun, and fascinating history
of the Spider-Man comic universe. Thanks for joining us for episode one of season seven of The Amazing Spider-Talk, a revolving door of talent. A revolving door of talent. That's, that's another name for our podcast. Oh, if you want to swing along with us on our journey through Spidey's past, present, and future, subscribe to amazing spider talk on your favorite podcast app.
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We're traveling back to the late 80s and early 90s to an era of Spider-Man's history that saw his comic completely visually reinvented with sales reaching a peak that will likely never be replicated and a whole host of creative voices that would go to. Yes, we're talking about the early half of writer David Michelinie's run on Amazing Spider-Man, where he worked alongside the founders of Image Comics, Todd McFarlane and Eric Larson, married off...
Peter Parker and introduced the world to the hottest villain since the days of Ditko, none other than Venom. That's a lot of legacy there, Dan. But in this episode, you and I, we're going to be talking about the fallout of the truncated or abbreviated end of the DeFalco Friends run on Amazing Spider-Man, which left the creative voices leading the title in doubt.
In the wake of this abrupt departure to Falcon Friends and the messy end, of course, of gang war, which included, among other things, Daredevil in a fat suit, as well as the deeply unsatisfying Hobgoblin reveal, which was probably worse than Daredevil in a fat suit.
as well as the editorial shake-ups, up and downs of the Marvel line. Amazing Spider-Man went into a transition period. You see, folks, we brought it back to the transition joke. Anyway, so there were a ton of new voices coming on and off the title, including...
That's a lot of names, folks. The result was a confusing time to be a Spider-Man fan, but also contains some of the most celebrated Spider- man stories of all time and the first female writer dependent issue of amazing spider-man as well as some major status quo changes for spidey's world
Yeah, it's a lot of stuff happening in a short period of time, like less than a year. But if you want to read along with our conversation, we'll be talking specifically about Amazing Spider-Man numbers 290 to 297. Spider-Man Annual number 21, Web of Spider-Man numbers 31 through 33, Peter Parker, The Spectacular Spider-Man numbers 131 to 133, as well as some of the other transition periods in Spider-Man.
All these issues can be found on the Marvel Unlimited app, and many have been collected over the years in the epic collections numbers 17 and 18, as well as the various Craven's Last Hunt graphic novel printings. There's been like half a dozen. of those, chances are you can find one of those fairly easily. So that's what we're going to be talking about today. It's that like brief period in what, like 19...
87 88 where the spider-man books suddenly changed christopher priest or slash jim owsley was leading the spider-man line and stuff kind of changed with that whole mix up there at the end with people getting
fired and more people getting fired. Mark, can you tell us a little bit about that and who it brought onto the title for the first time? Absolutely, Dan. But I do have to kick off this conversation by just pointing out to folks, and obviously I've talked about this a fair amount over the years, but I need to say it definitively.
I started reading Amazing Spider-Man in the smack dab middle of this transition period. My first issue of this comic was Amazing Spider-Man number 296. So it's the second to last issue in this run that we're going to be talking about before it begins. properly became Michelinie McFarlane.
Despite all of the changes and people coming and going, this period made me a fan for life. So go figure, right? Who could have imagined one of the four most... voices of spider-man started in this run so there you go but i i think we really can't get into what this run meant and why it became as legendary as it did. And by this run, I mean not just these issues, but also just the entirety of Michelinie, McFarlane, Larson, et cetera, without talking about Jim Salikrup. Jim Salikrup took...
over from Jim Owsley, Christopher Priest, right after the end of the Hobgoblin saga, if you will. We interviewed, Jim was one of our very first. uh creator interviews uh way way back at the first time i ever met dan in the flesh in 2013 at was then known as connecticut comic-con now it's of course terrific on where dan and i have also attended multiple times over the years it's it's It's like our homecoming, Dan, every time we go back to upstate Connecticut, if you will.
In that interview, Jim talked a little bit about what some of his priorities were when he took over as editor because he realized like this book was in a bit of disarray. You know, we talked about it a bunch at the end of our last season. What happened with Gangmore and, of course, the Hobgoblin. And Salakop's mantra was basically clean up the books, restore order in the spider office following...
the several years of chaos during DeFalco and Friends and Owsley running amok, as well as peak Jim Shooter, who was the editor-in-chief of Marvel. We had Jim on at Terrificon, in fact, a couple of years ago. Jim was... known as a very Polarizing force. Is that is that even a kind way of putting it? I don't know, Dan. I was going to say hands on editor. Yes. Polarizing is good, too. Yeah. I mean, so you got to keep in mind, like during these issues, like like.
Like Shooter was eventually forced out of Marvel in April 1987 and replaced by Tom DeFalco. And if you go through these issues, the first Amazing Spider-Man issue that listed DeFalco as Marvel's editor-in-chief was Amazing Spider-Man number 294. So again, it's like, you know, halfway through the halfway transition point. It's literally the second part of a Craven's Last Hunt issue. There's a new editor-in-chief of Marvel. Surprise! Dan, like, what...
Let's start this off by talking about the editorial stuff and whether or not you felt like Salakrup was able to do what he was set out to do in terms of restoring order to this book. Well, and I did want to give a shout out. If you want to listen to that interview that we did with Jim Salicrup, that's Superior Spider Talk number 12. And then I believe very early in our time as Amazing Spider Talk.
the end of Superior Spider Talk. I did an interview with Tom DeFalco specifically about his very short tenure as editor-in-chief. where he gets some further insight into this period. So check out both of those interviews. Talk about a job boost getting let go from Amazing Spider-Man and suddenly finding yourself editor-in-chief. I don't know if...
Tom DeFalco saw it that way. I think he was kind of thrown into that role unexpectedly and kind of like trying to plug holes in the boat. What do I think of Salicrup's mantra and did he fulfill it? I mean, you know. It's hard to say like how many of the books in this like short run were truly like the work of Jim Salicrup in that like.
He kind of came in and I think a lot of these stories were stories that weren't supposed to be in Amazing Spider-Man that got elevated into that position. And I don't know what kind of work he necessarily did to like. facilitate the creation of these stories that have probably been simmering for some
time. But there are some all-time great stories from here in this particular era, Craven's Last Hunt being one of them. You know, there's other interesting experiments like the Mad Dog Ward crossed a bunch of titles. So there's a lot of experiments. I don't know that you can see the full fruits of his labor quite here, but I think on the other end of this, you can really see that Salakrup cleaned up the line, gave each book, I think.
more distinctive an identity than it had they they had been having beforehand you know as a transition period we've got some great stories uh some like status quo resets real talent that was suddenly found its way onto the book So like, I mean, that's kind of the job of an editor is to tell great stories, bring in great talent and attract a lot of people. I don't think you could.
consider any of his work here a failure. Like all of that happened and more. Oh, for sure. I, you know, so it's, it's, it's always funny to me. Cause like, if you actually go back and go through Jim Salakrup's credits. I mean, he was kind of a fill-in writer and editor. For Marvel. I mean, he actually did his prior history with Spider-Man was the Spidey Super Stories, a.k.a. the Electric Company comic books that were the books that went on to inspire the Electric Company. So you're kind of.
like oh what's this guy you know how is he gonna have an impact and like I'm gonna I'm gonna start this Shout off with a bit of a hot take here, or maybe it's not a hot take, Dan, but I think Jim Salikrup was probably the most successful editor in Amazing Spider-Man history. I think that he kind of came in... from a chaotic period you know jim owsley chris christopher priest obviously
He talked about it a bit in our interview with him several years ago. And if you go to his blog post that we've talked and referenced a lot over the years, he talks about it. But he had a vision in terms of how he wanted to kind of model each of the three books and do all these. things. He clearly lacked the management skills, especially as it came to talent relations because he, you know...
Frankly, Tom DeFalco and Ron Friends still, I think, harbor a lot of resentment for Christopher Brees as we've kind of has been insinuated to us directly. The fact that insinuated is doing a lot of work. I'm trying to be very. Very diplomatic here, Dan. But Jim Salikrup took some of that vision, maybe kind of scaled it back a little bit, but he just had... Just a great skills as a manager because you figure, you know, you look at some of the talent.
He had to manage during this period. And I'm talking about the transition period, but also kind of going and beyond, you know, in terms of Todd McFarlane and Eric Larson. I mean, David Michelinie was he wrote one of the most famous runs of Iron Man before coming on to. Amazing Spider-Man. So these were all major name talent that Salik was mad. He brought Jerry Conway back to the book. Alex Saviak, who was kind of like Stan Lee's favorite son, like next to John Romita Sr., I think.
It was just like, you know, like a lot of talent, a lot of legendary big names, both within the spider office and just outside of it. And kind of stitched this book back. to health. And yeah, I mean, like, these are quote unquote, it's a hodgepodge of stories. A lot of it was inventory stuff. And we'll get into some of the specifics of that. But like, it all works. And like,
Even for inventory stuff, this is some legendary stories just in less than a year's time that this guy put together. I mean, like, who, like... Who else can say that from a run of inventory stories, right? I mean, that's crazy to me. Yeah, as much as I like Amazing Spider-Man 700.1 and .2, yeah, there's nothing quite like this era.
You make a really strong case for Salakrup as an editor, and he makes the case himself by being a strong editor, you know, of what I would consider like a spider office. You know, like this is where that kind of idea really. of came to full fruition you know with the number of titles i mean you know under his uh you know tenure we got what four concurrent
Peter Parker, Spider-Man titles that had to weave between each other. I mean, that would obviously like go on, you know, to be, to take its full fruition in the clone saga where like they really truly weaved into each other. But like to kind of kick that off and really be managing that kind of, you know, load of titles is a big deal. We give Steve Wacker a lot of credit for running the Spider-Man line.
You know, in the 2000s, he was doing, you know, a bi-monthly Peter Parker title along with all the other books. And that certainly took a lot of work to round up that writing team. But also, like, I mean... I think, you know, Salakrup's task was equally Herculean and really turned out some quality books that have redefined the character for audiences for a long time. For sure. So let's talk a little bit more in detail about what were some of the big...
tentpole ideas, if you will, from this era. I mean, you know, I know we said we were going to start with 290 and I'm cheating by talking about, I guess, 289, but I think it still technically counts as kind of like the handoff to Salakrup, which was...
basically resolving the Hobgoblin story. And like, you know, again, referring to that interview we did back in 2013, I mean, Jim Scalicrope basically knew that that story was the dog's breakfast, if you will. But he was just like, look, we had to move on.
move on. He was like, everyone, he's like, you know, I think, I think at the time he said, everyone's moved on, but you Mark, I'm like, okay, I moved on, but I, I, I'm just asking questions. Right. But it was like, you know, He knew that the whole reveal of the Hobgoblin was... Poorly botched because of the infighting between DeFalco and friends and priest. He just like had Peter David do what Peter David thought was the most sensible solution, which was Ned Leeds. He basically boxed out.
Christopher priest and then made Christopher priest right to uh peter david's resolution in web of uh and then it was just like it's over no more no more hobgoblin until basically the demon goblin showed up in in inferno uh a couple years later and that was that it allowed them to finally kind of like clear out and like, okay, we're going to do some inventory stuff before we move into...
the McFarlane run with Michelinie. But like, how did we kick off the inventory run? Well, probably by doing the most famous or maybe infamous story of all time, which was marrying Peter and Mary Jane. kind of showing the strength of Salakrup here. This whole concept was...
Really, nobody's idea but Jim Shooter's. You know, we can go back to the interview from Terrificon in 2022. I also write about it extensively in My 100 Things Spider-Man Fans Should Know and Do Before They Die. And frankly, this has been... a very discussed topic especially in the light of um one more day and and the dissolution of the marriage
Basically, at the time, none of the creators affiliated with Spider-Man. That includes DeFalco, Friends, Jerry Conway, all of them. None of them wanted to marry. Peter Parker and Mary Jane, even David Michelini, who is going to do the issue. You know, he talks about it in our interview with him. He's like, well, I was.
gonna do it but i wanted to do something kind of unique and different and jim shooter was just like what the hell is this no uh so um he didn't get to do the artist the only artist who would do it was paul ryan because he was basically like
If I, you know, if I don't do it, I'll be fired and never get to work again for the rest of my life. I mean, these are all things people have said on the record about Jim Shooter and this story. So, like, I'm not just being cheeky here, Dan. Yeah. And I think. even leading up to that annual that actually married them off, like issue two 90 starts, you know, uh, with Peter kind of like reconciling his life as Spider-Man and deciding, you know,
He seeks out his childhood microscope, which, you know, has its own kind of sorted story, whether it was destroyed or lost or not, or he sold it away or whatever. There's a million different takes on where that microscope went. He kind of. like heals this divide between him and Spider-Man and decides I need to focus on Peter. And that means I need to get married to MJ and he proposes to her.
I actually think like this issue 290 and 291 are what sell me on the marriage more than the wedding issue itself and sell me on Michelinie as a writer. Like. You know, following this story is a beautiful follow up to all my past remembered from, you know, the DeFalco and friends run. And it sees like. MJ, you know, fleeing town, you know, to visit Gail, her sister, who's in jail.
And there's this whole drama with, you know, their father and Peter going to leaving town with the spider slater hot on his heels to kind of bail out MJ and her family. And if there was any story, I know we talked about this last season with the Gullickson's from comic book couples counseling, but if there's any story that could sell me on this pairing, I think this is probably about the best.
If you had to sell it to me in two issues, this is probably the best you could possibly do. And I think it's really a solid story and rereading it before, you know, coming on this show to do this episode. It really stood out to me like no wonder they hired Michelinia to come on the book like this is a really character driven fun action tale like.
If he was biting the bullet of marrying off Peter and MJ, he still gave it his all. Yeah, for sure. And again, I also feel like you got to credit Salicrup there for kind of pulling this together. I mean, they had a mandate and we talk about this a lot now. You know, in terms of like, oh, well, what's really in the Spider Office's control versus what's coming from...
you know, on high on the mountaintop. And, you know, I feel like we kind of use that as a way to hand wave stories that frankly, we don't feel are satisfactory. Everyone is on the record saying, I don't want to do this. Don't make me do this. And they did it. And it was pretty good, all things considered. I mean, you know, like, yeah, there are some elements of it that feel kind of truncated and unearned. Unearned, and we'll talk about this in the episode that we dedicated to it.
For something that's so unearned and kind of rushed together, it certainly has its defenders. Yeah. And I have become a convert. Like, and I think it's on the strength of these two issues, you know, and how they play with the history of the titles. To me, that's a really exciting thing to kick off this transition with, you know, and the promise of what David Michelinie could bring to the book moving forward. Definitely. In addition to the wedding and the proposal issues, the other...
Of course, big transition. And this is truly a transition story because this took Michelinie and the kind of the entourage of artists. It was John Marina Jr., among others, out of it was Craven's Last Hunt. And, you know, we talked to J.M. DeMatteis again at Terrificon or Connecticut Comic-Con in 2013 about this. And for the record...
J.M. DeBatteis does not want to talk about Craven's Last Hunt anymore. He's going to still answer questions about it from people, I'm sure. But I will confirm with certainty he doesn't want to talk to – he loves talking to us. He doesn't want to talk to us about Craven's Last Hunt anymore.
I think JMD is Craven's last hunt out just just for all you out there if you run into him. But with that said, as he talked about during that interview, this is, of course, famous as it wasn't even actually a Spider-Man story. This was. An original pitch by JMD was as a Wonder Man story. That ended up getting rejected by Marvel because they felt it was too similar to Wonder Man's established origin story. And then...
GMD actually shopped this concept to DC as a Batman story. And then that was rejected because they were already doing, I think it was Batman year one at that point in the book. So they didn't want to do another big Batman event. Of course, JMT would end up basically taking his pitch and adapting it further for Batman in the 90s with Going Sane in the, I think it's the, what is it, the Dark Knight miniseries? Anyway.
Craven's Last Hunt brings in Mike Zek, who had worked with JMD on Captain America. They also... brought in the villain Vermin, who they created in Captain America. And they are basically making Kraven from a punchline into one of the deadliest villains in Spider-Man's history because he... successfully buries Spider-Man alive. It's also the first Spider-Man crossover event.
As you well argued in our 400th episode, Dan. So congratulations. I still think the tablet saga counts as a crossover, but that's neither here nor there. It doesn't say it on the cover. I never. forget yeah I think the like that's really important and then like really this is where like you start getting outside of that annual like the official like marriage status quo
You know, like and it's really baked into the story now. Like, you know, I don't think we realize quite how baked into the story it was at the time in that, like most of the issue is MJ. You know, looking out a window with rain worrying about Peter. And she does do a little light adventuring, you know, on her own as well, including a sequence where a woman gets eaten by vermin.
You know, like that would become kind of a cliche over the next 20 years of stories, you know, or 15 years of stories or however long it was. But like it was there reflected in the comic and a central theme to the story is that like they're a newly married couple. And, you know, Peter is not showing up and how does MJ respond to that? And and that makes the story interesting, too, is like this. This is a reflection of a brand new status quo. Yeah. So, I mean, again.
Not to keep beating the same drum over and over again, but, you know, good showing of a strong editor that they were able to take... this story that wasn't even written for Spider-Man and integrate it in a way where it seamlessly flows from one transition story to the next.
You know, the transition stories transition into each other, even though they were kind of written in a vacuum from each other. And I think that's pretty cool. I don't mean to disparage the current run of Spider-Man, Dan, but I don't know if we would see that today. yeah probably not The next story like continues that sort of like crossover across the titles. I wouldn't say trend, but like it must have worked out well enough with Craven's Last Hunt.
that they decided to continue doing this. And that is Life in the Mad Dog Ward, which, you know, I don't think this story is talked about. With any reverence other than for the fact that it's written by. Daredevils and Nacenti, the first female writer on Amazing Spider-Man, which, you know, I think is really kind of almost by accident. Like my read on this was that this was not. to be featured in amazing Spider-Man, but with the gap that came in, you know,
Like she gets it by technicality, you know, like this is not a like great feminist moment in the history of Spider-Man comics. One that still has really truly yet to come. In 2024, although maybe that changes next week with the release of Justina Ireland's first issue of Amazing Spider-Man. Yeah. What do you think about life in the Mad Dog War? I mean, it's it's forgettable.
Which is me being kind to it. It's a very confusing story because I think if I'm being completely honest of all of the kind of... inventory stories that got deployed during this run. I mean, this one feels like it's the most in the vacuum. You know, it's like, it basically kind of reads like a writer exercise where, you know, basically Nascente's like, oh, well, let's see what happens if...
Peter accidentally like goes into a mental institute and is among the patients. I mean, it's like basically like one flew over the cuckoo's nest, but Spider-Man style. And it's like, you know, how does. Yeah, there's a sort of like a Manchurian candidate. like kind of thing with this too. They're like taking these patients and brainwashing them so that they become super soldiers, you know, for like Kingpin's army and, and stuff like that. It's.
It's interesting because like both this and Craven's last hunt see Peter like removed for days at a time from his life, you know, especially so early into the marriage that I think probably because. That's what helps with these inventory stories. If they don't touch on the kind of associated figures in Peter's life, then that means that they can truly be inserted wherever they need to be.
But I think JMD did it more successfully with Craving's Last Hunt, if only because it's a better story, too, than Life in the Mad Dog Ward. Look, I mean, it's not... I don't think it's a terrible story, but it just doesn't really stand out. But you're right. I mean, it does win out of technicality for being a first. And I actually quite like...
Nesenti's Daredevil with John Romita Jr. So I don't think it's any knock on her, but it's definitely just kind of something that is thrown in there. No, Nesenti has a singular voice, and I think it is present. in this I mean she injects her kind of politics into these things and has a really interesting perspective and tends to do stuff that's very different than anybody else at that time and I think this you know
It does tackle mental health, you know, issues. And, you know, being that this is kind of like Reagan era comic booking that was very much in the.
like cultural discussion you know about like you know how does the country treat uh people with mental illness so um you know this stuff was spinning straight out of the newspaper and and that makes it interesting too Now, speaking of mental health, or maybe I'm not speaking of it, but the other story from this run of comics was kind of focused on resetting Dr. Octopus and also getting basically the artist's chair. ready for Tom McFarlane. It's the two-parter.
That ran in 296 and 297, a.k.a. My First Two Comics, with Michelinie and Alex Saviuk, with John Byrne covers. You know, John Byrne has had this habit of just, like, throwing some covers together. And they were usually Doc Ock covers. And people... But I actually like these two covers better than his Web of covers with Doc Ock. Do you have any take on these two covers from Byrne? Yeah, I like them.
I don't want to knock your first comics. I think they're a little silly, you know, like, like, you know, the kind of like spider. that is dressed in Spider-Man's costume and stuff like that. Though I like his web of covers, I think a little more than this, but like they're good covers, you know, and they definitely convey the narrative, I think really well that plays out in.
of them I am curious you know about your connection to these covers because you know if these are your first comics there was something about that cover that spoke to you at least I know that was true for me in my first Spider-Man comic the cover
obviously pulled me in. Was there something about these covers that stood out to you? I think it was actually more the interiors and I think a lot of that had to do with Alex Saviak because I think Alex Saviak, you know, we've talked about him and we've interviewed him too near Comic-Con back in 20...
13. He's a classic Spider-Man artist. I mean, he evokes John Romita Sr., so much so that he became basically a favorite collaborator with Stan Lee, and Stan's kind of like, you know... comic book strip days he he was just you know the perfect kind of artist to get in to do these kind of otherwise forgettable because they were forgettable stories I mean like as a
Even though they were my first Spider-Man comics, I must have either through animation or maybe the Secret War action figures or something like that. I was like... wait, why is Doc Ock such a chump in these books? You know what I mean? I just remember being like, Doc Ock, isn't he like a... Big bad villain. And like, he's, why is he scared? It didn't make sense to me. So I had that much. Yeah. Well, for, for context, like this is post owl octopus war, right? Where Spider-Man just decimates.
Dr. Octopus and rips his arms off. And so like here, like Dr. Octopus is suffering like PTSD where he sees Spider-Man everywhere and is. terrified of him and he tries to relaunch his criminal campaign only to be like thwarted not even by spider-man but by the mere presence of spider-man but ultimately ends up getting his mojo back kind of by by the end of them yeah which you know wouldn't really factor in until probably uh when eric larson came on to do the return of the sinister six but
they did like kind of set it up that Doc Ock would be a major villain again by the end of it. And that's always, I think, you know, I think the world is right when Doc Ock is.
a nemesis and not, you know, you know, something else. But yeah, I really do think a lot of it was with Saviak. I mean, like, I still, I think it was 297 that the opening splash page of like Spike in the rain like you know he ran out of web fluid and he's just like oh now what do I do you know like bet this doesn't happen to Captain America you know what I mean like it's like one of those books and it's you
You wouldn't be able to tell from looking at some of the visuals and Michelinie's script if you were reading this book in 1965 or 1988. You know what I mean? And I think that's... That classic aesthetic and tone is what hooked me for the duration of my fandom here. The next story is one that I've expressed some fondness for over the years. We've talked about, you know, the death of Gene DeWolf, I guess, in our previous season written by Peter David. And that story obviously stars the villain.
the Sin Eater. This era in Spectacular marked the return of the Sin Eater. Stan Carter gets out of prison somehow. Like you do. Like you do. But again, dealing with... mental illness and the kind of like aging up of the material from the mid eighties where like psychology became a major part of this. Like Stan is clearly someone that suffered, you know, acute mental illness, you know, and so he's trying to kind of like rehabilitate himself.
In a world that only sees him as the Sin Eater. And what I like about this story, I think even more than I like the death of Gene DeWolf story is that it really feels like a Spider-Man story. You know, you've got the police that are like, you know. coming after Stan Carter, who is also kind of pointing a finger at the chief of police as being a bad guy, while Spider-Man is also being accused of murder.
And so like it creates this like unusual ally ship where Spider-Man is trying to get everyone to believe in the rehabilitation. possibilities for stan carter which i think is something we don't see enough of with spider-man following through on his mantra of like you know using his power responsibly which is to like stick up for the fact that maybe these guys could be healed
And it handles it in a fairly, I think, mature and interesting way. I don't know that I want to necessarily get into how it ends if people haven't read it. It's still kind of the ending of it still haunts me to this day because it creates such a sympathetic character.
character out of stan carter and put spider-man in a position where not only does he stand to like lose no matter what he does but it only stands to kind of like further uh you know entrench him in like the negative mind or viewpoint from New Yorkers about like what causes he champions.
I think it makes for a pretty interesting Spider-Man story, the like of which we rarely have seen since. Yeah, I like these books a lot. I often allude to these when I talk about like... favorite electro stories just because it's you know like whatever for whatever even as a original dicko villain you don't get a lot of
good uh good electro stories and this is one that features him pretty prominently obviously that um and and yeah like it it feels more at its core a spider-man story than i think the original spin eater story does as we talk about so This is a fun one, too. And, you know, obviously transition for Spectacular, but... We're going to count it. Dan, do we want to talk a little bit about the slack before we talk a little bit more broadly about what these periods mean for comics?
Yeah, sure. Speaking of transition. Yeah. Mark, tell us about the slide. I think I need a Jim Salakrup to help with that transition, but that's OK. Anyway. Hundreds of listeners like you hang out in our community of Spider-Man fans on Slack. The amazing Spider Slack community is absolutely free to join. And you can jump into active conversations with awesome people about collecting conventions, movies, new comics, old comics, and more.
Dan, what is happening in the Slack this week, which could be two weeks from now based on when this runs, but just work with me here, Dan. What's happening in the Slack at this time? Yeah, well, it may be months after we record this that this hits the main feed. But, you know, next week is the release of Kraven the Hunter.
The movie, which, you know, is tracking fairly negatively. It's been delayed a number of times. You know, we've been hearing about this for, what, half a decade or more? Mark, it's finally coming. Aaron Taylor Johnson as Kraven the Hunter. The trailers have been weird. I've actually watched the first nine minutes of the movie because they released it online and I thought it was... actually kind of solid, at least in terms of like an actioner.
I don't know that it will be satisfying me as a Spider-Man fan. Mark, are you planning on seeing like this one in the theater? Like I like the director of this movie. Like I think there might be potential here, at least more than that. Adam Webb and Morbius. Does this have your attention at all? I'm curious about it just for the reasons you mentioned. And also just because like, I feel like. So with the Sony movies, I had issues with the Venom movies because I was just like...
you can't do Venom without Spider-Man. You know what I mean? Like, like I just, it just never, and I saw the first, I still haven't seen the, the, the, the last two Venom movies. Cause like, I, I, I know how I didn't even see Carnage yet, but I just like, I thought the first movie was patently absurd in an unenjoyable way, like not even in a hate watch kind of way. I was like, I do not enjoy this. So I apologize to all the people I'm offending with that opinion. I did not.
go and seek out Morbius or Madam Web because those movies seem even more patently absurd and I also just don't care about the characters in general like you could put Tom Holland in a Madame Web movie and I might hesitate from seeing it because I just like I don't like Madame Web as a character and nor do I really like Morbius like I mean Morbius is
was roy thomas's way up we could do vampires now i i like i i just don't care you know what i mean like good job good job you did it you did morbius um but craven obviously there's a legacy there and Yeah, I'm curious now with that said I saw As of this recording, I saw Gladiator 2 yesterday with my dad, and that's maybe the third movie I've seen in a theater this year, this calendar year. It's just hard for me to get out and see movies.
And there's no way I'm going to get my wife or my son to see this with me. So this is going to require me. going to a movie by myself, which I'm not opposed to doing, but like, it's just going to be about finding the time to do it, which might be hard, but I'll try. If not, it'll probably be on Netflix within the next two months. So, you know, there'll be that.
Yeah, well, I can't bring myself to even watch. I haven't seen Madam Web yet. I can't bring myself to watch, even though it is streaming. It's just like I have a two year old, so my time is already fairly limited. So like to even think about like putting down, like using my time, like precious time to do that.
seems like like a big investment and which is weird to say as a spider-man podcast like we should probably be watching these things to talk about them maybe we should like make a patreon like goal that like you and i will find the time to watch these things to talk about them um and make fun of them um but i think i'm gonna carve out time to see craven if only because like there's a real character there that like has a moral like
core and I'm interested to see how like that might get translated to the screen I think it's a bizarre thing that Sony has chosen to focus on these villains in the way that they have which presumably I think is all just to create their own Sinister Six movie of some kind, which is a lot of like the cart leading the horse. Like they own the Spider-Man property. Just do a movie about another universe's Spider-Man. How hard is that?
I do think this one is going to be a box office bomb and potentially lay the seeds for the end of the Sony-verse, at least in its current form, which... I think a lot of people will be really grateful for. And that's at least that's what people are saying in the slack. But, you know, I am moderately.
curious about Kraven the Hunter. But then I go back and watch that first trailer where it showed him getting like the blood of a lion dropped into his veins and that's where he gets powers from. And it's like, I can't, I can't support that. It's Morbin time, Dan. It's Morbin time. Maybe there's some context in the movie that makes that make sense. And by the time you're listening to this, many of you probably have already seen the movie.
And are like screaming at me about it. But I will probably go see it. I think I could carve out the time to go see Craven. All right. Well, I do like the idea of like Patreon. Like let's give Mark and Dan a movie night. You know, I don't know how like the Patreon could like convince our wives that.
this is time well spent, but you know, we could try. I swear, I swear they're, they're dying for us to talk about these things. Yeah. Right. Right. Yeah. Well, you know what? If, if you want to talk about it, whether Mark and I have seen it or not, come jump into the slack. Our amazing spider slack is our little community of like roughly a thousand of our listeners who talk about Spider-Man and related things.
every day they've truly become like some of my closest friends on the internet it's like a really tight-knit club if you haven't already jumped in maybe it'll be talking about craven the hunter uh with me uh on there that will get you to do it Come join our Slack. I wanted to spend the second half of this episode talking a little bit about just overall.
transition periods on spider books just because i i just felt it was extra prescient and relevant to what we're experiencing right now with eight deaths of spider-man i also think this was like a pretty
historically significant transition period. Because really, outside of the period where Stan Lee dropped off the book and Roy Thomas wrote a handful of issues that kind of kept the seat warm for Jerry Conway, we really... I haven't gotten stuff like this before, like a specific period of just like inventory books and other things and major events just to kind of tie things over until the run.
The creative run, as it were, got set. I mean, we would have fill-in issues, but even that feels very different from what this was in this era. So what's your take overall on... transition periods i mean we talked a little bit about it when we talked about eight deaths of spider-man and i think we were at the time like oh it could be it could be fun but i guess more historically what do you think about it well it's interesting you say that because like it got me thinking you know about like
Other transition periods, like after the Michelinie run, it's kind of like constant transition, you know, like like the the like mid to late 90s was a lot of. different voices popping in and off here and there. This is the last real sustained run on the title for a while. You know, like, I mean, I guess Mackie comes on and he does a number of years on the title. Michelinies is like a pretty sustained thing and and matching with records. So like what we kind of got in this transition period.
is kind of indicative of like what we would get for a lot of the period that you and I have been reading the title, whether it's the, you know, something like more cohesive, if you want to call the clone saga cohesive. During that period and Brand New Day, which, you know, obviously was under a certain umbrella, but still saw a lot of like people coming off and on and a lot of stories that were probably inventory stories that got elevated.
So like I think this period actually kind of provides a really interesting look into like the future of the title and like like what you would get for sustained periods of time. I think there's a lot of like ups and downs to this kind of thing. I mean, I'm all for like more voices coming in to the title. You know, like I think the points where I get most bored.
with Amazing Spider-Man is when people are on the book for a great deal of time. We were practically begging Dan Slott to get off of the title towards the end of his run. And it's not even necessarily about quality more than it is just like... I want to hear another person's take on this and also know that it's not going to be there forever, which I think is why I like Brand New Day so much. It just feels fresh all the time. As much as I don't.
think the ending of beyond necessarily stuck the landing. And as much as I think that, um, eight deaths of Spider-Man is a very weird transition so far. And as much as I like the stories here, I think if I were to like. plan a transition, it would be much more organized around a kind of like short idea like Beyond or Eight Deaths is doing than what this one is.
even though I like the books in this a lot more. But I think there's something cool about that, like just kind of doing a deviated thing and coming back for like a... you know, something bigger. I don't know. What do you think? Well, what's interesting about it is, you know, especially if you talk about it in the context of like this period here and then like beyond.
And even like what you were referring to, like in the mid to late 90s, when it was kind of jumping around because of the Clone Saga and JMD coming and going and DeFalco coming and going and a lot of those transition books. were happening out of necessity because it was just like we kind of got caught. unawares you know i mean like in in this current run it was you know basically christopher priest imploding and and and shooter leaving in terms of
you know, most recently with Beyond, it was Nick Spencer kind of leaving unexpectedly. And it was a good way to kind of like... rearrange the deck chairs and get things set up for the next long-term run. And I, you know, I feel like I think in both instances, post this run and post beyond, it was, it was a successful trend. It successfully handed things off.
You know, like Zeb, Zeb Wells got the runway, you know, whether you liked his run or not. And I think we are more of the opinion that we liked it. We don't have to convince ourselves of this, but I feel like it was, you know, it gave him the runway to get him his idea.
set up so that he could start doing all the stuff with why up and and tombstone and all that like it got john ramita his head start on things and i think it was successful and i think certainly in this one it was successful in getting you know mcfarland off of batman and set up so that he could basically reinvent Spider-Man with Michelinie, who was just a very solid, steady, good storyteller. It was just a great match. So I'm curious.
Again, going further into modern context here, how that translates to eight deaths, because from our understanding, Zeb's departure was... You have been predicting it for about a year. Yeah. And Nick Lowe outright kind of says it like he said this one wasn't out of necessity, you know, even though they've never admitted that the Nick Spencer one was out of necessity. I think anybody could read the tea leaves there, you know, like they weren't given a ton of time.
But like he said, I enjoyed Beyond so much that I felt like it was nice to do a transition between arcs. And at the time of recording this, we don't know what follows. Yeah. I mean, like, look, if this is. If what follows next is the Justina Ireland arc, which I think is a possibility, and I have no inside information. I don't know if you have anything at this point, but I'm just throwing that out there. I wouldn't...
I wouldn't be shocked if that's what ends up happening. I mean, then, you know, this gives them an opportunity to get her out there on the main book. I know she did that miniseries, but like... We can see, and Navy could be another example of a successful handoff. If doing this and then it's like, no, we're going to do...
The Mark Guggenheim run, again, no inside info. I'm just throwing names out there here, people. You know, I guess we'll see if this really helps or not. But to the original point, I... I do like this idea. And frankly, I think we're going to see a lot more of this in modern comics. So I feel like, you know, there's a part of me that's like almost like.
Even if you're not necessarily a fan and you want more hardcore consistency, I think readers are going to have to open their minds to stuff like this. And maybe going back to this era is a good way to kind of... prepare yourself and steal your loins a bit about it because I think this is just what's going to be happening with comics now. I think this is an industry where it's going to be very difficult to get...
David Michelinie wrote this book for how many years? I'm supposed to be the expert here. And I'm like, what did he, could someone do my research for me? But I think it's like seven or eight years if I had to guess. And I like. I just don't think you can get that kind of commitment from people anymore. Or even if you got a level of commitment, I just don't think... I think that...
You know, it's an independent contractor's world for the most part. They're going to be moving from thing to thing and the projects are going to come up and delays are going to happen or they're going to get a creator book or they're going to do whatever. And these periods of transition are going to become...
the norm or you know it's like this is the only way we can get xyz on this book is to you know fill the space for six months with something so i i think this is going to become very very common especially in a book like Amazing Spider-Man that double ships. I like it anyway, but I also feel like I need to... I think readers just need to adjust to expecting this. And, you know, this is a good period as any to kind of get yourself adjusted.
Well, I think it was appropriate that we started this conversation about this transition by talking about Jim Salicrup, because I think most of these transitions, you know, to end up happening when editorial is kind of falling apart. Or they can't get ahead enough to really make, you know, like a solid, long lasting status quo, you know, happen. And so you get a lot of these transition stories. This is not a knock on any editor, and I think maybe what you're expressing isn't necessarily like...
you know, in the modern editor sense, Nick Lowe's fault more than it is just the reality of like how long people are willing to stay on the book. Although, I mean, Zeb did 60 issues, you know, Spencer did. 75 plus and slot did what nearly 200 issues like those are you know historically those are really solid
long runs of Spider-Man comics. We talk about the Roger Stern run all the time, but that was what, 30 some issues, you know, things change, things don't change and timelines are accelerated and yada, yada, yada. I think how good these things are really comes down to whether an editor can shape them up to make them...
than work because otherwise a book becomes completely without form if it's, you know, moving through a constant state of change. You know, to that point, we haven't said the word, the name Steve Wacker today. If you're talking about transition, there's an editor that oversaw, you know, maybe more change within his office than anyone else and yet made it feel. Very smooth. And so like I would be down for this approach if I felt like we had an editor that was like.
talented enough to manage that. And, and Jim Salicrup, I mean, I don't know, bring him back again, get, get him off paper cuts. Uh, you know, like, uh, like that's the level of talent I think that's needed to wrestle. something like what you're discussing yeah for sure i do want to talk about a couple of the drawbacks though just to spell it out for people i mean like you know and again like i think
This current run from the 80s here is a good example of it. But like overall, like these these transition periods. can lack cohesion i mean i think we saw that during beyond i mean like you know from from creative team to creative team you know it did not have the flow of, say, what Brand New Day had, even though you had different voices, it just felt too disparate. We talked about this earlier in this episode, but like...
I feel like we had some happy accidents during this run in the 80s here. Like the fact that we had just married Peter and MJ and I think having them be married. made craven's last hunt a stronger story and and agree and and like jmz worked it in but like you know as as you noted a lot of it was just you know mj staring out a window
And then, of course, you know, the big scene that I always think of is, you know, Peter pulling himself out of the grave saying, I love you, which is, you know, obviously has far more power to it when he's married. But like. You do have to be like... Well, you kind of lucked out into that one. You know what I mean? Because that's not how the book was written originally. You know what I mean? Yeah, there's no way. Two issues earlier was the big change.
not only married, but like freshly married adds a lot to it. And, you know, there's the great scene where. We'll talk about this in our Craven's Last Hunt episode, but Peter returning home to Mary Jane is really touching. Yeah, but we're talking about some of the greatest comic book creators of all time.
making something work where it maybe shouldn't have. And you can't necessarily expect that to be... the norm so while this this kind of bucks that trend it's worth noting that that cohesion or lack of cohesion can be problematic in these runs and i think like to that point like When you're throwing all these, like, especially, like, inventory stories out there, you know, like, your hit percentage goes down, in my opinion. Like, yeah, like, The Wedding and Craven's Last Hunt.
are like legendary stories, but like Mad Dog Ward is not. And even though they were my first books, that... Doc Ock story is not a hit. You know what I mean? It is a very... I don't even know if it cracks the top 20 in Dr. Octopus stories with Spider-Man. You know what I mean? That's how low on the list it is.
Well, I think also to that point, like tonally, it's all over the place. Like Craven's last hunt ends with someone committing suicide. The Dr. Octopus story, as much as it's interested in like. his like psychological state it's very like you said like silver age you know kind of stuff and it feels like a weird regression
from what you were reading in Craven's Last Hunt. And both things deserve their space, but maybe not quite so back-to-back like that. It feels like all the other transitions, like that was something we knocked beyond. Which was like you get a Zeb Wells issue that really is selling you on, you know, Peter and Ben's relationship and then going to take on beyond. Only for, you know, Kelly Thompson, who's a writer I like in most other situations coming in and doing issues where they're.
doing sandwich jokes in what are supposed to be like a penultimate issues of a very like dramatic storyline, you know, and not, not dramatic, Dan traumatic. Okay. It's going to trauma. Sorry. It's going to traumatize you, Dan. Sorry. I agreed with all of that. And, you know, not to completely contradict what I was saying a few minutes ago, but I think overall, like...
I like these periods. I like the possibilities that these periods do. But I also think it can only be done in small doses. Because at the end of the day, I like reading Amazing Spider-Man. Because I like seeing an artist's and a creator's statement on what's... on who and what Spider-Man is for a period. And I feel like you can only do that through a sustained run. And like some of these other, like brand new day is probably the biggest exception. And like, yes, like.
I know I said Jim Salikrup's probably the best editor, but like Stephen Wacker is probably, you know, if Salikrup's 1A, Wacker's probably 1B. In my mind. Yeah, I mean, we're going to talk about Brand New Day in I don't know how many years, Mark, but the more you read stuff like this, the more you realize what a miracle was that that book made any sense at all.
Yes, for sure. So let's just disqualify Brand New Day from this conversation. So not to contradict ourselves too much, but for the most part, like... Like, especially like that 90s period we were alluding to earlier, like not having a consistent vision on the book, I think really hurt it. You know, like it was too much transition. You know, even like the transition. Yeah, I just feel like.
You can do this for a couple of months. Once you do that, we got to get into like the main event, if you will. And then, you know, but... You know, at the same time, it also helps keep it from having the dance slot situation, which was, you know, one voice for too long. So pluses and minuses. You don't want to go on a cruise where the captain is changing every other day. No.
No, but you don't also want to... I don't know what that would look like, but it sounded like a smart thing to say. No, it does. But you also don't want to go on a cruise where you just play the same... racquetball every day. You know what I mean? Like you, you want some other stuff to do. Yeah. Yeah. Or maybe we could go back to your jazz metaphor from the dance thought run where it's like, you don't want to change who's leading the jazz band every five days. There you go. There you go.
There you go. We'll find a way to make it back to music in some way. Well, Mark, this was a fun discussion and I think, you know, helped us kind of like articulate. Perhaps things that you and I have never really talked about on the show before. And hopefully it finds its way into our coverage of eight deaths of Spider-Man as we kind of consider.
these kind of moments in the history of the book. Yeah. Why don't you, why don't you bring us home for the episode? There's another transition, Dan. It's that time, time for all good things to come to an end. So we want to say thank you to you, the listeners. and viewers for tuning into this episode of Season 7 of The Amazing Spider Talk.
On the next episode of Season 7, we're going to be talking about the only annual that officially doesn't count. That's Amazing Spider-Man Annual number 21, The Spider-Marriage. We have a special guest. lined up for that episode, who is here to defend the merits of a married Peter Parker. So we hope you will gather here together and tune in in a couple of weeks for this. Very special episode. And of course, hear it on Patreon first.
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