¶ Intro / Opening
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Hello everyone and welcome to Amumpur. Here's what's coming up. Iran vows retaliation after the U.S. seizes one of its ships as uncertainty hangs over We will bring you the very latest and a look at Lebanon. We speak with a member of parliament about Israel's unprecedented attacks and whether the shaky ceasefire will hold. The rough side of the mountain. Atlanta's former mayor, Keisha Plus, Michelle Martin hears from college students about the disconnect they see between Gen Z and
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¶ Ceasefire Confusion and US-Iran Tensions
Very warm welcome to the programme everyone. I'm Paul Needon in New York, sitting in for Krishna Mampur. The clock it's ticking down to the end of that two week Iran ceasefire. And confusion here still reigns. Every day it seems a different answer to the very critical questions. Are peace talks happening in Pakistan? When may they be happening? Is the Strait of Hormuz closed or is it open?
Meantime, Iran says it will retaliate after the U.S. Navy fired on and seized an Iranian-flagged cargo ship that tried to bypass its blockade in the Gulf of Oman. Dramatic night team footage you see it there shows U.S. forces boarding the Iranian vessel, a helicopter hovering over the ship, and marines repelling down. U.S. Central Command says the ship's crew failed to comply with warnings, so it told them to vacate their engine room before opening fire.
¶ US-Iran: Diplomatic Hopes and Pressure
We want to go now to our uh Ellie Garen Maya. She is a senior policy fellow at the European Council on Foreign Relations. And I welcome you to the program when even now we are still trying to parse exactly what will be happening. in the l next forty eight to seventy-two hours. It's been a weekend of whiplash. The Strait of Hormuz briefly opened.
then closed again, the US seizing as we just showed there an Iranian ship, and Tehran now wavering on whether or not it will even attend peace talks in Pakistan. And JD Vance, we don't know if he's going or not going. We keep seeing different things. All of this confusion, what do you say about whether or not it's actually damaging, compromising the diplomatic track right now?
Thanks for having me on the show. Well look on on Friday it looked like we were seeing glimpses of hope. uh that there would be renewed talks in Pakistan. But for some reason, and it remains to be you know seen why, President Trump created this maximum pressure move to say that Iran's uh the blockade of Iranian shipping would continue despite the fact that we had these d de escalation moves
on Lebanon, the Sheky ceasefire, but there was still some move to towards progress. We also had the Iranian foreign minister declare that the Strait of Hormuz would be open for more free shipping. But then the president announced this blockade on Iran, which basically made everything go sad.
It seems to me that President Trump wanted to take another move of maximum pressure to try and make Iran capitulate to US demands, but instead he's caused maximum confusion now about whether peace talks will happen or not.
But where does that leave us then? You know, and I you know, you have seen it in the press that some people actually believe that this blockade is a good thing. The US is maintaining that blockade, firing on and boarding Iranian vessels as we just saw. But at the same time, they are pushing for that diplomatic solution. Can those two tracks really succeed in bringing peace and bringing those much needed negotiations?
Like this is a old tried and tested US policy of maximum pressure on Iran that you could argue has been in place for over forty years now. But what we've seen as a result of the maximum pressure is where we are today, which is this profound war conflict that is causing global rip off effect. damaging ones across the world's economy. And Iran has shown that in response to maximum pressure, it will always respond with maximum resistance.
So my sense is that Pakistan has been working the phones over the past twenty four hours. since the US boarded this Iranian cargo vessel to try and find de escalation moves. And again, my interpretation is that Iran will only show up to Pakistan if the US makes some sort of a signalling move that it's willing to de-escalate. That could involve things like releasing the crew of that tanker or the tanker itself to open the pathway for these peace talks to happen.
Those would seem like minimal m moves of trust. I note that Iran continually says we've been at the bargaining table with the United States, even in recent history, twice, and and they feel betrayed by those negotiations. But I want to ask you, if there's no agreement before this ceasefire expires,
¶ Risk of Full-Scale War
What could we be looking at? I mean, do you think a return to full-scale war o is possible or or do you believe it's more localized conflict?
But look this ceasefire what it was intended to establish was some degree of confidence that the two sides would adhere to their words, that Trump uh would implement the US side, that the Iranians would implement the Iranian side, despite the fact that the senior leadership had been assassinated during the course of this war.
if we get to, you know, two days time and the two sides cannot extend the ceasefire, and I do think an extension is now necessary because I don't see them making the massive political breakthroughs that's necessary for a big deal in the next forty eight hours, then I really do think it's possible for them to go back to full scale conflict and perhaps even worse than what we saw before this ceasefire.
¶ Mediators: Pakistan and China's Roles
even worse, uh chilling words from you, and yet everyone in the region understands that that's a risk. Uh Pakistan understands that that's a risk. It's emerged as a key intermediary here, helping, hosting, trying to shape these talks. Uh an really they've gone above and beyond. What explains though Pakistan's influence here?
Well look first of all I would say that there has never been a shortfall of mediators on the Iran US diplomacy over the f last few decades. But in the course of this war, a lot of those traditional mediators like Oman, like Qatar, were directly caught in the crossfire between Iran and US and so they couldn't step in. And so we needed some new interlocutors. Pakistan has emerged as one, Egypt is another one, Turkey is another one. And it's these uh parties that are
Essentially on Iran's borders, Pakistan and Iran share a border, Turkey and Iran share a border. They're very concerned about
what instability in a country the size of Iran's with a population of over ninety million might mean for them directly. But importantly they have direct lines to both Trump and Tehran and that's key right now to try and do the shuttle diplomacy that's necessary to importantly bring the two sides to direct face to face negotiations of the type we saw having a real breakthrough in Islam Rabad last week.
Yeah, uh despite what's gone on here, those were extraordinary talks, even if at the end they didn't get it over the line. Uh we talked about Pakistan's influence. What about China? How do you see their influence in these negotiations? Is it possible that it is intervening with Iran more than we see, more than we see transparently anyway? Or does China actually have m more to gain if this plays out a little longer?
Look, I think absolutely behind the scenes Beijing is present, uh both in terms of its relationship, very close relationship militarily also with Pakistan. to try and have Pakistan as the sort of forefront of these mediations at a time where frankly Beijing cannot play that role, uh given its sensitive relationships with the US. Uh but also given that China has very important energy interests in the Middle East, a prolonged war between the US and Iran will not serve Chinese energy interests.
But also it will not serve really global energy interests as well, including uh the pump stations in the United States. And I do think there is an interest for both the US and China ahead of this uh grand summit that's being planned. for this war to wind down and I think President Trump understands the need for that.
¶ Iran's Internal Leadership Divisions
Can the confusion in Iran itself with the leadership get in the way though? There are increasing contradictory signals really coming out of Tehran, diplomats suggesting openness to talk. Military linked voices taking a much harder line. H how have you been viewing that in the last few days?
So for me as a watcher of Iran US relations, I have personally found the US dynamics much more confusing in this war to read between the lines of the social media posts and uh the the actions of the US versus the statements of the president. But you're right, look, Iran has faced an unprecedented war against the US, against Israel. It has had its senior command and control wiped out. But at the same time, they have been very quick in these unprecedented times.
to establish some degree of authority. They did come to consensus amongst the military and the civilian political factions to engage JD Vance in direct diplomacy for the first time since the nineteen seventy nine revolutions. And we should expect that there's going to be divisions, even though we currently have the most hardline, most securitized establishment controlling
Tehran and the surrounding areas of the military. We do see some divisions in how they want to see the continued responses to the US, somewhat more confrontation because they think that the US only understands hard power. Others realise that there has been
perhaps over two hundred billion dollars worth of economic damage done to Iran's economy as a consequence of this war. And the sooner it ends, the quicker they can get on with the business of reconstruct reconstruction and giving some hope to the people of Iran that desperately need it.
Yeah, and it is indeed the humanitarian uh problem here in so many places, not just uh in Iran but in other countries as well. Elie Gar and Maya, thank you so much for bringing some clarity as much as we can to this issue. Appreciate it.
¶ Lebanon Ceasefire and Aftermath
Now, after Lebanon and Israel separately reached a temporary ceasefire, some displaced Lebanese are returning to their homes only to find that they've been reduced to rubble.
A lifetime of history in this house. It is not about the stone if we build it better or uglier. It is about our space, the space that is ours, the place that held us. The construction doesn't matter, the appearance doesn't matter, the outer facade doesn't matter. What's missing is the spirit inside and that's what hurts. To come back to find it this way.
So despite the ceasefire, as you heard there, the violence continues and so do the humanitarian repercussions. Israel says it struck a Hezbollah weapon site in Lebanon overnight and that two Israeli soldiers were killed in southern Lebanon over the past few days. France says one of its UN peacekeeping soldiers was killed Saturday by Hezbollah.
And it's been of course a devastating six weeks for Lebanon. More more than two thousand people have been reported killed in Israel's unprecedented bombing campaign. US and Israeli officials say there will be a second round of direct talks between Israel and Lebanon in Washington DC.
¶ Lebanon's Stance and Hezbollah's Role
But let's give everyone the state of play here. There are five Israeli divisions inside your country still. A security zone that stretches up the Latani River and for anyone who hasn't seen a map, it is significant, right? That is the whole southern portion of Lebanon. blockaded there. Many villages in the south have been roused by the IDF and Beirut has also been hard hit. I don't have to remind you, we're showing a map of it now.
Some people though tentatively want to return to the south and your government is right now, as we just mentioned, in direct negotiations with Israel, and this is significant, the first time since nineteen eighty three. Where do you sit? Where do you stand in this moment that is equally one of both danger and opportunity?
No absolutely we need to grab this uh opportunity. Let's start uh by clearly saying that the state of Lebanon was and is not at war uh with the Israeli side. Uh who's at war uh is Hezbollah. who dragged uh the Lebanese uh population into this uh war that had nothing to do with Lebanon initially uh in support of uh Iran, uh the the main sponsor of uh Hezbollah. This is actually what uh brought the Israelis uh into Lebanese territory further.
uh after the war that happened uh more than fifteen months uh ago, uh the Israelis were uh in uh present in about five points uh along the borders of Lebanon. After this six week war, they are where you have shown in the map, uh several kilometers into Lebanese uh territory, uh due to the uh intervention of Hezbollah and uh bringing uh Lebanon into this uh confrontation. that most Lebanese people had uh did not want. In fact all Lebanese people had nothing to do with. It caused uh
uh more than a million uh people uh displaced. Uh it uh destroyed uh tens of towns uh reaching uh uh areas across Lebanon uh in terms of uh destruction where Hezbollah uh is operating. uh and not reaching any uh viable uh conclusions. So now the ceasefire
is a new window of opportunity. The Lebanese government is negotiating to try to find a solution that would eventually result in a withdrawal, in the deployment of the Lebanese armed forces and in some kind of a commitment to prevent his bulla from uh attacking further.
¶ Controlling Hezbollah: Internal and External
Okay, but you know as well as I do how difficult meeting those parameters will be. Uh and there is a valid question here and it's a question many have asked for a generation in Lebanon, who's really calling the shots here? I want to play some sound from Lebanese president. Joseph Ayun from Friday who said Lebanon is negotiating for itself. Listen.
Anamustad.
I am ready to bear the full responsibility of these choices, and I am ready to go wherever necessary to liberate my land, protect my people, and save my country. Today we negotiate for ourselves and decide for ourselves we are no longer a card in anyone's game nor an arena for anyone's wars and we never will be again.
I understand the words, but the reality on the ground is much different. You know, the reporting suggests that even the ceasefire was shaped significantly by Iran, that Hezbollah's own TV station, Al Mayadin, announced it even before President Trump did. Um, you know, Tehran took public credit and briefly opened the Strait of Hormuz as a signal. So help us understand here. How did this ceasefire actually come together and and who negotiated?
Definitely the Lebanese state uh will is to have a separate path in terms of negotiations from Iran and this is also the United States and Israel's uh uh position. Uh definitely there's a direct link between Iran and Hezbollah, but not between Iran and the Lebanese state. So it was Iran that basically called the shots when Hezbollah shot six missiles uh on Israel at the beginning of the uh Iranian war. Uh and uh for sure there is a direct link between the Iranian
um uh uh uh uh revolutionary guard and uh Hezbollah in Lebanon. But with whatever capacity the Lebanese government uh can uh manage uh the president is trying to negotiate to find a solution that would support the Lebanese government in controlling Hezbollah on the ground that uh would require international support as well uh for the Lebanese armed forces to perform that task given that
in the past fifteen, sixteen months, it hasn't been able to fully dismantle the infrastructure of Hezbollah following the previous ceasefire. uh and knowing fully well that uh Hezbollah could at any point in time reinitiate uh an engagement uh at the uh directive and the uh order uh from Iran and that is a possibility that's always there.
So all of these uh make the situation very complex. A a government negotiating without having uh full capacity to control the situation on the ground. But with the intention.
But with all but I do want to get to the heart of the matter. What changes that equation? What will actually disarm Hezbollah and get the Lebanese government negotiating with Israel?
Disarming Hezbollah requires a multiple step or we multi step approach. It requires them being cut off from their sponsor, Iran, to start with. It requires them to be cut off from their uh illicit activities through the deep state in uh in Lebanon that still funds them or support them or sympathizes with them. Uh it does uh require international support to perform that task, but also an internal Lebanese will
to curb uh the capacity of the deep state that may still be supporting uh the activities of Hezbollah. And this is something that the current government is cur is is basically working on, the current president is working on, but this cannot happen without commitment and support from the international community, the Friends of Lebanon, both in supporting the Lebanese armed forces but also supporting
uh the uh international environment that may still uh allow Hezbollah uh to be linked to Iran and to be helped by uh Iran. So there is a link with Iran, it cannot be fully decoupled. But at least in these negotiations, the Lebanese state is actually making the decisions and making the commitments for the help to to come.
¶ Lebanese Christian Perspective Amidst Conflict
I understand that you say that it cannot be fully decoupled, but it is still an extraordinary statement, especially if you're Israel, right? I mean w last month Um Hezbollah i you called Hezbollah's decision to reenter the war and and you restated at the top of this interview that it was a suicide action, that it dragged all of Lebanon into the unknown.
But since March second, your government has taken steps that it has never done before. It has outlawed Hezbollah's military wing, expelled the IRGC, ordered state media to stop referring to Hezbollah as a resistance group. But at this point in time, if you are Israel and you want to stop the rocket fire that has besieged your northern territory for, as I said, well over a generation, decades in fact. W where do we come to a meeting of the minds here?
No absolutely. The Lebanese government has taken multiple steps to ensure that Hezbollah can not operate uh freely within the state. But uh we have to also understand that Hezbollah has been building its capacity unchecked for the last uh forty plus uh years in Lebanon and uh they've uh they've created a parallel state to the formal sovereign state.
uh and the state of Lebanon has been made very fragile. So the Lebanese government would continue to act. Yes, it has taken unprecedented steps. Contrary to many governments that have uh been in power before, this uh government uh has been able to take advanced steps
steps to curb the uh actions of Hezbollah on the ground, uh but this hasn't proven to be uh enough yet. So For us to uh prepare for a long lasting stability across the southern borders of Lebanon with Israel, something that has been the case uh uh post n nineteen forty nine armistice for example for many years. before uh Palest you know, Palestinian uh uh uh factions started attacking Israel from Lebanese territory and then following that uh Hezbollah
started doing the same thing. So over this uh period of uh decades
uh there's always been somebody on Lebanese territory attacking uh Israel outside the Lebanese state. Now it is the time for the Lebanese state to take control to uh to stop Hezbollah but given that this entity has been left unchecked for so many years, this does require international support and does require a full understanding from the Israeli side to uh to create a collaborative model with the Lebanese government which is now we have a great opportunity to do so under US support.
Understood and I hear you that it is quite an opportunity. Um I point out that you are a Christian MP and there have been viral images of an Israeli soldier. who took a sledgehammer to a statue of Jesus in a Lebanese Christian village that we point out is under Israeli occupation at the moment. I mean Netanyahu condemned it. Uh w I I'm wondering your reaction, especially what is it like to be a Lebanese Christian right now, caught in between all of this?
It's it's very difficult. O of course uh you know acts like this uh do not help uh stabilise the situation, do not help those who are uh pushing against Hezbollah uh carrying weapons outside the government in Lebanon. Uh but uh let's not forget also there are many Christian uh towns uh where its people have not left the South. They insisted on staying in the South. and uh they are kind of isolated from the destruction that is happening because they have not allowed
uh Hezbollah to operate from their towns. Uh we support them and we hope that they could continue to do so, uh which would uh prove also that uh anyone who um is is is not acting outside the will of the state uh of Lebanon to create wars. would remain also intact. I hope this uh message is very clear to everyone involved there and we continue to hope that uh the current talks will actually lead
Not just for uh it is not about uh sh Shias or Sunnis or Christians in Lebanon. It's about those who want the state. to be a sovereign state in control and uh uh with everyone abiding uh by the law and the constitution and those who want to act separately uh with respect to orders from Iran uh using Lebanese territory and Lebanese people and Lebanese assets. to cause uh wars that most Lebanese people, if not all, do not want.
And we will wait to see the outcome of again those talks on Thursday, uh in Washington D. C. Ghassan Haspani, thanks for being with us. Appreciate it.
¶ Keisha Lance Bottoms: Memoir and Politics
Thank you. Now coming up for us the race for governor of the state of Georgia. I asked Democrat and former Atlanta Mayor, Keisha Lance Bottoms, about her political hopes and how her family history. Who she is today. We'll talk to her.
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Yeah.
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today.
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Now, to here in the United States, where the Democrats are working to strengthen their party's future as they aim to flip seats and turn entire states blue in the November midterms. Our next guest wants to help lead that charge, former Atlanta mayor. Keisha Lance Bottoms is running to become Georgia's next governor. Her politics have always been influenced by being a daughter of the South as well as by growing up as the daughter of an RB singer, Major Lance.
Her candid new memoir, The Rough Side of the Mountain, details the experiences that shape the woman she has become today. And Keisha Lance Bottoms joins us now. Congratulations on the memoir and welcome to the program.
Thank you so much for having me.
¶ The Rough Side of the Mountain
It is uh really good to have you here as you reveal the memoir here. I want to start with what I consider to be the two totems of your memoir, right? Both really the first we have to start with that picture on the front cover cover. Our viewers are seeing it now. Um your posture, it betrays your sass, your irrepressible. Uh a and that is the way most picture you. But then there's the other side of this, right? The title, the rough.
Side of the mountain by the Barnes family. I want to play a few seconds of it. Listen.
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You know, I had to play that when I was reading your memoir because I thought it is pretty much the soundtrack through this whole book. It's an inspirational gospel song. It's all groove and god. Um how are both, both that picture of you a and this song, this gospel song, emblematic of your life today?
Well thank you so much for playing that and thank you for taking the time to read the book.
Yeah.
It brings back great memories. Uh my grandmother used to play it in her kitchen as she cooked. So thank you for that. You know, that picture was taken when my parents were still together and my dad uh we had just moved back. from London, England, where my dad had a resurgence as an R and V singer. He gave this little unknown guy named Elton John his start in music, his professional start.
And that was that picture completely captures my personality at that time. But I also write about my dad going to prison and how in an instant uh it was like a light switch went off. Um my dad was arrested before me. I came home from school one day and saw him being led away in handcuffs and it changed everything about our lives. And I often i you know, reflect on that time and you you think that you want life to be really easy.
Um but by the grace of God I've really come to see that it really is the rough side of the mountain that gives you something to hold on to, or Retha Franklin said it best. So for me it has been this full circle moment.
finding that courage that that little girl had, um, and owning it, putting away imposter syndrome and feeling free just to be authentic in who I am and knowing that um in in imperfection uh there is a connection with people and for so many of us who are climbing the professional ladder we often think that we have to hide those parts of ourselves, those things about our family members that
may not be as pristine as we want the world to see. Um, but I'm so glad that I've had the opportunity to to tell the t the totality of who my dad was. He was a wonderful flawed man um who loved me deeply, loved our family deeply, and I am just honored that I get to tell our story and I know that it's gonna resonate with so many people.
¶ Family Trauma and Public Life
And and why now? Why decide to to really delve into this family trauma now?
Well it's really interesting. It is not at all how I planned it. I started working on this book when I left the mayor's office and the intention was to have it out a long time ago. Uh at that time I didn't even plan on running for governor. When I went to work in the White House as senior advisor to President Biden, I had to go what we call pins down. I couldn't work on the book.
uh and then when I left the White House nearly a year later I picked it back up. So it's not at all how I would have planned it, but I'm grateful uh that the story is being told and I I said when I wrote it that if nobody else read it but my family I'd be happy. But I do hope other people will read it and um and and see themselves in in our story.
It it is very much a tribute to your family. I mean, in fact you remained very close to your father until he died in nineteen ninety four. Uh it was in fact just weeks before your wedding. I I wanna tell viewers something that you wrote in the book about how you describe him and your relationship. You describe it as the man who taught me that no matter what level of chaos or misery had a hold on my life. I needed to step outside looking like I had it all together.
the man who showed me what reaching for a dream and grabbing it looked like, who insisted that I deserved everything I wanted and had nothing to lose by just
Asking.
You know, whether in fact it was law school, motherhood, uh you know, politics, uh whether it was joy, whether it was trauma, uh how did he shape a and those comments about him, how did he he shape
Your aspirations are
It's been um a blessing and a curse because he did teach me that I always had to go out looking like everything was okay, even when it was not okay. the blessing was the strength that I found in that, um, but the curse is the baggage that you carry with that. Uh there's a a great poem by Paul Lawrence Dunbar, we wear the mask that grins and lies. And when you keep so much on the inside it can become isolating and you feel as if you are the only one, that your family's the only one.
going through very difficult times. So even when my mom uh was working three jobs and and really struggling to make ends meet. Um we still had to get up and look like everything was just fine, even when it was not. And one thing that I can say, especially about uh generations who come after me I really respect the openness that people have in talking about so many issues, whether it's about uh struggling with with mental health.
um or just openly discussing what their challenges are. I write in the book about my struggles with infertility. my eating disorder, I write about being inappropriately touched by a neighbor. Many of these things I never spoken about publicly and had not shared um with many people outside of my immediate family.
Yeah, uh y you write very poignantly and as you said, um, with with clarity uh and you're very revealing about the struggles in your life, uh many unfortunately that many other people can relate to.
¶ Atlanta Mayoralty and Governor's Race
You you also speak, of course, of your love for your city, Atlanta. You write that the city is both the memory of what America used to be and what it can become. You became mayor with great amb ambitions for your city. But y as you write, it it was rough going. Cyber attack, COVID, the George Floyd protests, to of course painful incidents in law enforcement that happened under your watch and and further traumatized the city.
You know, you walked away after one term to get a breather and I think many people can understand that. But why run for governor now? A and look, you've heard the criticism i no matter who says it to your own when, you're gonna hear it again. Some people say you weren't up to the job of mayor, that's why you walked away. So why do you want to run for governor?
Well when when I made the decision not to seek a second term as mayor, my approval ratings were at sixty eight percent. And I know that if I felt that I had something to prove, I would have stayed um for a second term. Um but I made that decision from a position of strength, not weakness. Um when I reflect upon that time, um I I write about my dad passing suddenly at fifty five. And when I turned fifty, I was fifty one when I made the decision not to seek a second term.
Uh I thought about the four years that my dad had left when he turned fifty one and I thought about what I wanted those four years. to be. Um I made the best decision for myself and for my family and I don't regret it at all. My kids were much younger. We had been through a very trying time as a city, as a country.
uh quite frankly and I was very proud of all we had accomplished with leaving uh money in the bank, millions of dollars in the bank, uh creating affordable housing, balancing the budget. for four years, not raising property taxes, all the things that any elected official wants to accomplish. But it was really an examination of what I wanted those next four years to be. And for anyone who's ever lost a parent, especially a parent at a young age, the point of their death is a marking point.
And I think like so many people around the world, uh twenty twenty helped many of us prioritize and reassess what we we wanted in that moment.
¶ Leadership, Protest, and Future Hopes
I wanna give our viewers just a sense of how difficult um you know things were when your tenure as mayor and one of them was a tipping point that happened at a protest uh downtown, in fact very close to CNN, and a speech that you gave. Listen.
This is not a protest. This is not in the spirit of Martin Luther King Jr. This is chaos. A protest has purpose. When doctor King was assassinated, we didn't do this to our city. So if you love this city. This city that has had a legacy of black mayors and black police. And people who care about this city where more than fifty percent of the business owners in Metro Atlanta are minority business owners.
Oh no.
If you care about this city, then go home.
You know, what also got me about that moment and the way you wrote about it is you were very, very transparent about what your son said to you at the time. And he said, Ma You don't know what it's like to be a black man in America. I mean that really got me as a mother. It clearly got you as a mother, but you were also the mayor. And you also write candidly in your memoir that you're not sure things
In terms of things dividing Atlanta or Georgia along racial lines, or the country for that matter, that things haven't necessarily gotten better. Uh I mean, what do you hope to achieve going forward, whether you have success in the governor's race or not?
And and you asked the question, why am I seeking office now? And it's because I know what it's like to serve as a leader under the Trump administration and I know what solid leadership means to our communities. And in this moment, um I reflect on the words of Nelson Mandela who said each generation has an opportunity to change the world. And for me it is about what I'm called to do in this season and what will my leadership mean to the people of Georgia.
Uh I can't say that I have all the answers and I'll be able to fix all of the problems, but I do know how to stand up and fight for people. I do know how to make decisions in the midst of chaos. I do know what it means to working families. I know what it means to people with kids that you're just trying to make sure you're doing the best they can so that they can have a better future.
So I I really hope uh that across this nation early voting in Georgia begins April twenty-seventh, but I really hope across America people will take the opportunity to allow their voices to be heard through their vote. I am a daughter of the South. Congressman John Lewis was my congressperson. So I know we aren't the first generation that's faced difficult times, but I know that each generation has a responsibility to do what it can to make life better and that's why I'm running for governor.
Tisha Lance Bottom, so I want to thank you for being on the program again. Congratulations on the memoir, The Rough Side of the Mountain. Thanks so much.
Thank you.
¶ Gen Z and Washington: The Disconnect
Coming up for us, what does Gen Z think about Washington? We take a look at the disconnect between young students and their political leaders. How to solve it after the break.
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Comedian Craig Ferguson is going coast to coast to unpack what it really means to be an American today.
What could possibly go wrong?
Craig Ferguson, American on Purpose. News series premieres May 30th and 9th on CNN and next day on the CNN app.
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So what is Washington getting wrong about Gen Z? That's the central question of a new group of essays published by Nodis Perspectives, investigating the growing division between the U.S. government and the country's young people. Now crucially, the project only accepted pieces from those with a personal connection to this issue.
American college students, Notice Perspectives editor Richard Just and two student contributors join Michelle Martin to discuss the importance of intergenerational messaging.
Thanks, Paula. Richard Just, Emma Rowland, Shaggy Arogan Dade. Thank you all so much for joining us.
Thank you.
You badness.
Richard, I'm gonna start with you. You lead something called the Prospectives Forum. It's uh it's based at a Washington based newsroom. Just tell me what it is.
Sure. We're the opinion section of a Washington-based uh publication called Notice. Um we publish essays, we publish um long form narratives and we publish uh forums where we ask a bunch of uh different writers to weigh in on one pointed question.
You had the idea of instead of reporting on young people, you asked 22 student journalists from across the country to write about what Washington gets wrong about them. How did you come up with that idea?
Well, we were interested in the topic of hearing from uh of trying to figure out where the disconnect was between Washington and young people across the country. And I I feel like there's this DC or New York media instinct where when you wanna know what a group of people think about something, you send a reporter to find out.
Um and we wanted to do something different here. Instead, we wanted to hear directly from those voices. Um and we thought this was a great opportunity to do that because the country is full of amazing college journalists who are the experts on this topic.
um and who uh we thought would have really interesting arguments to make. Um and so we reached out to a ton of college journalism professors um and we asked them to recommend some of their best students um and they did and we ended up with twenty two great writers.
¶ Washington's Slow Pace vs. Gen Z's Speed
Yeah, and the essays were really interesting. Emma, I'm going to start with you. You're a senior at the University of Oklahoma. In your essay, you wrote that Gen Z is used to things moving fast. Washington's pace pace is unbearably slow. I cosign that. Um and you also say for my generation, a constant adrenaline fueled need for speed isn't a preference, it's the norm.
Groceries arrive in thirty minutes, breaking news alerts vibrate in our pockets the moment something happens. Our world moves fast, our attention even faster. Washington is the opposite. and it's been built to operate on a rhythm from a different era, something that for minds used to instant gratification is hard to grasp or upset. I I I just thought that was such a fascinating observation and th you know, when I read it I thought, yeah, that that
Sounds right. How did you come to that conclusion? What did you see that sparked that?
Well, this past summer I was actually able to be in DC from May to August through a program um from OU. And being up there I feel like I kind of got more of an insider look on what other people from my generation see. And so while yes, there is a substance part of why people from my generation are upset, whether that be policies or other things in Washington.
Um what I also saw is that there is this disconnect between the understanding of why issues that have gone on for decades uh are not able to be not completely fixed even, but maybe just partially um resolved or or even done without any type of grid law.
Did you have like a Eureka moment or something where you thought, Wow, this is really
I was able to be there for of course there um was the the big beautiful bill that was passed and and just big instances like that where I was able to hear
People
that people from my generation respond to uh things like that. we were born into a generation where we're used to politics almost being a pop culture element rather than more of a procedural, um formal element in our life. And and the more that I thought about it, the more that it made sense, well, I'm so used to things happening so quickly and I'm getting text alerts while bills are being passed around floor pr low everything's happening.
I my brain is wired to really question why are things so difficult to get through in Washington and and why are things so um almost gridlocked all the time.
¶ Gen Z's Silent Protest and Demands
Shay, you are a senior at the University of Idaho. Congratulations to you both, by the way. In your essay, Shay, you write that young people aren't disappearing from public life. We're just waiting for a political system worth showing up for. You go on to say that while some leaders may see low voter turnout or low party registration any credit with apathy, they're misreading the moment. This break from the status quo is a silent protest against the system, an absence.
from a political game that young people see as rigged. From what you see on campus and among your peers, I'm a it was really the same question I was asking Emma, which is how does that silent protest kind of show up in real life? How did that insight come to you?
It really stemmed from, you know, the twenty twenty and the twenty twenty four election. Um, a lot of what I was seeing on social media and a lot of what my peers were seeing on social media is We have to vote for this person because they're the lesser evil quote unquote. than the other candidate. Um and that just didn't really resonate with me at the time and I know it didn't resonate with a lot of um my fellow friends and fellow students as well.
And so I think this idea that we have to vote for someone because they're slightly better than someone else is just not working. For a lot of young Americans, and they can't just keep on giving us the same old, same old, you know, line or script of, well, XYZ is our enemy and we have to defeat them or we need to do everything in our power to defeat this candidate because it'll be worse in the long run. Okay. But then what after that?
And so when I see a lot of politicians, you know, using that as their anchor of we need to beat this candidate because, you know, it's necessary instead of talking about actual policies, um or how, you know, they're going to make young Americans' lives better. I don't know, it's just it's a it's a real disconnect for me and I think a lot of young people. Um and so yeah, I think that silent protest is us just demanding more of our politicians and expecting more of them.
¶ Engagement, Idealism, and Political Tone
Richard, d did you see a through line in the essays? Did you see a common theme among all of them?
Yeah. I think part of it was just that young people are engaged in politics. Th there's a there's an ugly stereotype out there among folks who are middle aged and older. Um young people are are disconnected, that they're not interested, that they've given up on politics and Certainly our group was self selecting. I mean we went to college journalists who maybe are a little bit more predisposed to be interested in politics than the average population.
Collectively they made a very convincing case that this is a generation that is engaged, um, that does expect more from their politicians and that wants the country and the world to be a better place, um, but to the points that have been made. this generation is frustrated by what it takes to make that happen and frustrated by the ways that politicians are carrying that out. So I would just say that the overall through line with that there is engagement, there is idealism.
there is a desire for things to be better and that doesn't always come through in what we stereotype young people.
Она за фінс зайдет out to tone. Matters that like Washington doesn't always get the tone right with young people from messaging to social media and in fact, you know, some of the ways that they see politicians trying to connect with them is like cringe. Can you just give an example of that?
Yeah, I mean the the the chief example probably and the one that was uh at the forefront of probably many of our minds and then somebody wrote a really good piece about it. um was about six seven, um that by the time politicians, uh as they have, started invoking six seven in their in their social media posts and in their speeches, um, it was already past the point where young people um wanted to hear that and it was already it had already become a little cringe.
Um and I think the larger point is just that young people don't want to be condescended to, they don't want to be talked down to, and that there's an when politicians are saying six seven or trying to appeal to young people in that kind of superficial way, it it feels condescending and it feels empty.
And Shay, you also talked about this this this idea of being told that you have to choose the lesser of two evils. Can you just sort of say more about that? I mean, just I I'm in I am in Washington. I have been covering politics for a long time. And you know, the conventional wisdom is that the reason that negative campaigning persists is that it works. Mm.
Well, I think it's such a turnoff because, you know, there's no real policy basis behind lesser of two evils, if that makes sense. And as students and as Emma pointed out, we are dealing with so many things, whether that's
the growing climate crisis, student loans, whether we can afford to buy a house in this lifetime. And so when these are real tangible issues that are on the forefront of our minds, when politicians are telling us that We have to vote for them because they're the best choice, but they're not showing us why they're the best choice.
I think that just falls on deaf ears. And I noticed a lot within, you know, twenty twenty four election, especially when a lot of young people were wanting to vote third party or not even vote at all. because there was no candidate there to really represent young issues. Now there were candidates that were pandering to our social media, to memes, to pop culture and events, but not really talking to us like we are informed people who want to live
as best as lives as we can. Um and so when we see that constantly in the news, I think as young people and as talking to my peers, we just need something different and we need um candidates who are actually treating us w like we're adults, like we understand these issues, like these issues affect us in real time because they do.
¶ Gen Z's Political Independence and Hope
So Richard, I might bring some data in here. According to a Gallup report published in January, 56% of Gen Z identify as politically independent. But we also keep hearing that young people are shifting right, or at least they were. Can both those things be true or is one of them off the mark? How d how do you see this based on the reporting that you've done with this group that you've had?
Yeah. I mean one of the through lines of the pieces was that um there's a complexity to the way young people are thinking about politics that defies kind of our old ideas about the left right spectrum. Uh so we had someone argue, um, I think correctly that young people are turned off by centrist politics um and in fact find themselves gravitating towards the further left or towards the further right. I think that could be part of the explanation.
Somebody else argued that young people don't really care about party labels. They're not as interested in the old kind of partisan re you know, calling themselves Republicans, calling themselves Democrats.
Um, what they're interested in is particular issues, and those issues can don't necessarily neatly align with the classic definitions of where the Republican or Democratic parties are. So I I just think that there is a complexity to the way young people are thinking about politics that may defy some of the old ideas we have about left and right.
According to the Harvard Institute of Politics fall twenty twenty five youth poll, you know, Harvard does this youth poll every year, only thirteen percent of young Americans say the country is headed in the right direction. Does that sound right to you to both of you? MHAE, does that does that figure sound right to you? It does.
Yes, I I would say that it does sound right to me.
And does that sound how does that make you feel when you hear that?
There there seems to be almost a feeling of that that is just the way it is. But I do think that uh while there is almost like okay, do you does everyone feel like this when they first get into understanding politics when they're twenty and you know, when they start getting out of college and then a lot of the stuff actually does start applying to you in in the real world.
to okay, is there really um So is there really a concern to where a lot of this doesn't seem right to us and and a lot of this does seem like there's a a lot of heavy blockage almost when it comes to Washington working together and getting a lot of this stuff done to where we can feel we can feel assured that, you know, it It's heading in the right direction.
Well you mentioned hopefulness. Shae, what about you? Is there anything giving you hope right now? Other than that graduation is in your sights.
Yeah, um I think like Emma said, I think that our generation is very, very powerful and maybe that's with the rise of social media, but the ability for us to organize and come together as communities and as a and as a nation is It's just really, really beautiful to see and I I really think back to when my local community was doing a protest and you know the University of Idaho was
you know, the center and young people organized it and put out signs and all these things and were marching around campus and around the city. And that was just a really beautiful thing to see that, you know, Yes, there's maybe some apathy from some folks, but you know, as a generation we want our nation to be better and as a generation we are going to continue to fight for peace and equality and justice and all of these things and so
It just it makes me feel like a huge sense of pride knowing that, you know, a lot of these things that we're seeing that are changing, a lot of positive changes are coming out because we demanded for them.
Yeah.
Um, I think that as we grow and as we continue to get older, um, you know, I hope and pray that our zeal and our fight doesn't leave us. Um, but if even if it does, um, that we'll have the next generation to kind of pick that back up for.
I'll tell you what gave me hope is that there were twenty two awesome student journalists. all around the country doing this amazing work. So Richard Just, Emma Roland She, Arunga Dade, thank you so much for talking with us today.
Thank you.
Yeah.
And finally for us, a centuries old folk tradition breathes new life into an Indian village near Mumbai. In this annual colorful, as you can see for yourself, celebration, members of the Agricoli community compete to erect huge decorated bamboo poles to honor their local goddess, Reba David. From those who brave enough to scale their ceremonial creations to those celebrating down on the street, the festival creates a welcome sea of color throughout the village.
And that does it for us. If you ever miss our show, you can find the latest episode shortly after it airs on our podcast. And remember, you can always catch us online on our website and all over social media.
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