School Or No School

tell the stories that matter to us. Dad, today, we're talking about something interesting to me because we have different experiences. Yea something that you went to cold school, and it's it's school or no school, so we're both we're on both sides of this one. All Right, we'll take a seed classes and session. Okay, so we're gonna make something that you basically make the first couple of weeks you're in culinary school, which is fish. I'm popiot, which is

fish steamed in and parchment. Behavior you've had it, Yeah, Mom used to make it a lot growing up. Your mom. Yeah, it's a really good dish because it's something you can prep ahead of time and then kind of, you know, put it in the oven when your guests get there, and you can there's lots of different renditions of it. I'm gonna do something a little bit kind of like a little bit of the beaten paths, just to give it some flavor. Okay, this is so, this is zatar.

Do you know what zat is? Zatar? Smell it. It's so good. It's a spice mixture. Um, It's a Middle East and spice mixture. It has like some lots of dried herbs, a reagano, margorom, things like that, but also things like sesame seeds and sumac. You know what sumac is. It has like a little citrusy flavor. And so I'm gonna I'm gonna use this to to season the fish

a little bit. So what I'm gonna do is just take a little bit of you can use vegetable oil or canola oil, some of this uhitar, and I'm just gonna mix it with some of the oil and I'm gonna make like a very very light paste to put on top of the fish. Now I have a filet here of rock fish. Now I have to tell you, like rock fish is a new thing for me. It's a new thing for me. I love it. It's a it's a West Coast fish. We didn't really get a lot of this on the East Coast. It's a dense fish.

It has a really good, really good texture to it. I really love it. It's flaky, it's white, it has has density to it. So what are you mixing together there? So this is just the ztar and some canola oil, okay, okay, And I'm just gonna basically rub it on top of the filet. You see this, so it has like the sesames running through it and the sumacs. I just want to, like, I just want to enhance the fish. I wanted to st taste like the fish itself. And then what I'm

gonna do. So I have some part with paper here, and I'm going to I want to put the fish on the parchment paper, on the part of paper, and then I'm gonna take a little splash of wine and the wine is gonna, you know, give it some acidity, but it's also going to help steam it's you know, because when when the when the wine gets hot there, it's going steam it a little bit and then you know, maybe like a squeeze little leven just in there, just like that. Okay, So you can put vegetables in there

if you want. What I like to do is actually steam the fish with some flavor and then maybe put like a like a relish or a saucer or something like that after or vineigrette after it comes out. I like to do it with like lemon slices, capers. You can, you can absolutely do that. Okay, So today we're talking about school versus no school. Now, I don't want anybody to get the wrong idea. This is not about whether or not people should go to school or not they

should go to school period. And I think when I thought about this subject, even you were like, what are you talking about? I mean, I get asked all the time by young people who want to be cooks or chefs should I go to culinary school or should I just go to a restaurant and learn? And I have to say, like, there's probably a significant amount of that in your field, rightly. Should I go to broadcast journalism school or should I just learn on the job. I

don't think it's necessarily that. I think it's should I go to school for broadcast and digital journalism or should I go to school for something else and specialize in something else, whether it be politics or medicine. And then trying to get a career in broadcast. Yeah, because your career is really interesting in that way, because as a

broadcast journalist that could mean so many different things. It doesn't mean just news, right, it can mean you know, some specialty subject as you said, medical, political, public policy. I mean you name it. There's you know, there's a there's dozens and dozens of categories in that regard. So like you could be a journalist on TV or in media, and you can be like, you know, an ex politician for instance, you know, a former senator or something along those lines, and all of a sudden you become a

journalist on a senior correspondent, a senior corresponding exactly. Or you know, there are people who would say I just want to be a news in general, and they go to school like you did um and you majored in broadcast journalism. A lot of people do not take their major and then make a career out of it. You know, it's it's it's it's almost uncommon right at this point.

It's you know, it's like, you know, when you're eighteen years old, you think you would know what you want to do, and then by the time you graduate in your twenty two. You like, well that was fun and all, but I'm going to do something else. So you see you see that tons you you you you took a straight path. Yeah, but I definitely, I definitely had other interests and you know that was that was one of the great things about the school that I went to.

We were we were always encouraged to try out different classes and make sure you were studying where you really wanted to study, so that you didn't have any regrets later on. Right, Like you could go in as a freshman and um, you know, choose a major, but you were always encouraged to take classes outside of your major, just to make sure that you know, you didn't you weren't missing out on following a fashion of yours or

just reconfirming that this isn't really what you wanted to do. Well, you've only been at a school for a couple of years, and you know you've you've so far, I've taken this path from college to your your life, um as an adult, and you know you sort of carried on your education sort of directly. Right. So now you're on You're on You're on ABC and your your a journalist in Los Angeles. So I mean, do you do you feel like you had mentors in school and or do you have mentors

in the field that you work in? Like what do you where do you what are you finding I have? I have mentors that I've found while working at my job. I had mentors that were professors that are still mentors to me that I still text all the time, UM and reach out to and call when I have a question or a crisis. And I have mentors that I found while I was in school interning. UM, so from different you know, um wet news stations or networks that

I still talk to today. I've always sought out mentorship because it's been very valuable to me, and there's a lot of people I look up to. There's a lot

of amazing people in my industry. UM. And I always you know, when when students ask me for advice, you know, I always say, you know, try to find a mentor, UM that, or someone that you look up to, because, um, you know, as a student, don't be afraid to reach out to people because I always feel like people want to help students, and then once you graduate, people aren't always interested, right, but people always want to help young people that are smart and right, and and looking for

advice that are in school. Yeah. So, I mean some people know this story about me because I've talked about in the past, But I I dropped out of high school. So you and I have a very very different educational path, which I have to say, nothing makes me prouder than your accomplishments. You know, first of all, let's take it slow. Graduating in high school, which I did not do. I dropped that in tenth grade. Then you went to you know,

a great college, graduated college, and you flourish there. And I'll just say, like, you know, like I think that you know, I watched you grow up there. And when I say I watched you grow up, you flourish there, like you you became the person that you are today based on going to school. And you know, a lot of it has to do with your environment, the people that you meet there. I mean you you're a group of friends I was. I always call them, you know,

your your your girls. I mean there were guys too, of course, but like the girls that I think about that are part of your crew, like that were there for four years and still are I've been feeding them for six years. By the way, there they are these people are? They're really amazing young people. And you know, you've been able to associate with people like that, and it just makes it makes you more aware and a better person and more inclusive. It's like, you know, that

kind of stuff rubs off on people. So I didn't get a chance to do that, you know. I I went from from being in school in tenth grade hating school. I probably had some sort of learning learning disorder of some level. I have no idea they weren't really testing it for testing people that vigorously then. Um, I just wasn't interested or could not really learned through a textbook. I needed to work with my hands, and I did

not know that until I started doing it. I went to UM, I went to work in this Russian called Joe Allen. Joe Allen is a real person. Um he just actually passed away. And Joe Allen gave me the opportunity not only to get a paycheck. UM my paycheck was I was working in like the salad station. I didn't you know, didn't know how to use a knife

or anything, you know, like no nothing. I mean at first, I was a bus boy for two weeks and I sort of found my way into the kitchen, and my first paycheck was a hundred and ninety dollars a week, and after taxes it was a hundred forty four dollars. I was like shocked that they took forty six times out of my page. But he gave me a place to to go every days instead of just hanging out

in the street corner with my friends. And uh. In short order, I realized that I really loved going to work and I loved working with my hands, and it gave me a shot at life really. And so you know, the French Culinary Institute came around. Was the first class of the school. Okay, So I was, you know, eighteen at the time, and Joe Allen said to me, there's a new school opening up. I think you should go

to it. And I was like school. Like I was like, I just got I had just broken out of school, you know, and I was like, I don't want to go to school, and he's like, I think you should go to school so you can learn your trade. I was like, I'm not going to be that good at this because you either have it you don't, and he like chuckled at me. It's like you don't even know if you could be good at this because you don't know anything, Like you need to go to school, learn

the basics. So long story short, I went to school. I was in the very first class of the French Culinary Institute. I did not I had to go back and get my equivalency diploma, my g e D as they call it, because otherwise they wouldn't let me in to the the school. You need to high school, de plumber to go to school French culinary. So I went to school just just f y I. I just told the

story on my Instagram account. When Joe passed away the day I was going to school, he handed me a check for my entire tuition and said, you don't owe me anything. I want to do this and you know, I hope this really works out for you. And he said to me, this profession will take you anywhere you

want to go in the world. And at the time, I was like, I don't even know what this guy's talking about, right And I now, obviously I do know what he's talking about, because that was the beginning of giving me an opportunity to be a good cook right there, and I didn't know it. I really didn't know it. And frankly, I wasn't even a good student there. I mean, I just I was a kid. I was like I was so young, Sophie. You're I was nineteen. I mean,

think about that. I was six years younger than you are now, you know, and like I was still a wild kid, you know. I was just like, you know, I didn't have a lot of discipline at decorum. I was just sort of you know, And but somehow I I picked up a lot of what you know, I still practice today, which is the basics of French technique. Okay, I'm gonna turn this this way. So so what I

do is I cover the fish like this. I could leave some room and then I just kind of make cleats in it so that it acts, ye kind of outline the shape of the fish. Almost. Yeah, you're feeling it. Just keep going around and making pleats. It's almost like you're making like a like a pie crustating Yeah, yeah, you see that. Or like how you fold an omelet

exactly so this way. You know, if you have like six guests coming over, Sophie, you do six these little packages like this, and then you put it on top of a sheet tray for you know, a baking cheat or something, and you know three to do something like that, and we're just gonna put it in the others great, And it's a filade fish that's probably gonna take minutes, so I'll set the timer. It feels a little foolproof.

Well it is. It's not that it's foolproof. I mean you can certainly undercook it and overcook it, but it definitely, um, it gives you a little sense of security. Yeah, is there really any other way to learn knife skills other than going to culinary school? Yeah, just do it a lot. But like I feel like there's so many different small techniques and using a set of knives, you have to

be taught. Yeah. Now that said, I mean this is something I want to talk to you about, which is, like, you know, it seems like everybody is learning how to do everything on YouTube? Is YouTube the new university? Like what's going on? I do remember watching a an old bone of potite video and Molly Bass I don't remember what she's making, but she I learned how to how to cut a shallott. She like taught a shallotte cutting technique.

It's called caesa okay, which is a French term. It's basically, so did she did you cut down through the shallot, but not towards the back of it, and then and then then then turn your knife and then make slices the other way and horizontally. How you cut an onion? But in shallott when when it's a shallow for some reason, because if it's small, it's called sees the other one it's called But yeah, that's that that I watched on

a on a YouTube video. So they you go, So you learned you did learn how to use a knife doing it. I learned how to how to cut a shalott. Yeah, but I'm sure you can find whatever you want somewhere on the internet. Yeah, that's true. But the thing about knives is that it's really interestingly you bring that up, because I can use a chef's knife and shop an onion or mushrooms or whatever I'm shopping and not even have to look down. I know, it's so freaky. Have

you ever seen that. Yeah, I can be talking to you across the table and not look But it's because of the technique. It's not because I'm some magician. I mean, it's because you know, you're taught that you hide your your fingertips underneath your knuckles, so that so that basically the knife is just hitting it's just hitting the side of your knuckles and it's just going straight down you. You almost can't cut yourself unless you really try. But

that takes experience. That's one of those things you just have to do it a lot. Are you freaking out just like hate the idea of like I've cut it? I can't. Okay, So if you were to step into the French Culinary Institute and I want to teach maybe a new technique that you think is fundamental, what would it be? Fundamental techniques, but something that's more modern. I mean you just mentioned that you thought that's kind of

an old school thing, maybe not necessarily necessary. What's something that you know is maybe a little slightly slightly more modern, I mean slightly more modern. I mean like, I mean, here's the thing. So, like, so, molecular astronomy has become like a very important part of cuisine, although I think it's kind of faded a little bit. I don't know how to do any of that stuff. I just don't. It was not it was never like I wasn't against it. I was always curious about it. I didn't always think

that it tasted delicious. I thought it was cool. I never learned it, so you know, it's it. I like to cook from scratch, and what that means is that everything that I cook as a foundation. It starts with onions or shallots and garlic. There's a stock, there's wine in it. I create foundations of sauces. I always try to bring in my French technique foundation and then make it something new or something that I want to taste what I think is missing in this country in terms

of knowledge. This is gonna people are gonna say, oh, yeah, of course you're saying that chili peppers, because chili peppers are, yes, clearly a huge influence and from Mexico, um from lots of different places. I mean, I use chili peppers from Italy, Collabrian chili's, there's chili's from places like Peru like a hiyamadillo, and you know, there's there's there's chili's all over the world. But we have a lot of amazing chili's in America as well, all along the Southwest, you know, and of

course like southern California, etcetera. Texas there's chili peppers all over the place, and I really feel like they should be part of the American pantry everybody's because they are part of how we're eating a lot more today, which means tons of flavor. People want a little heat, they want that pepper background flavor. They want to bring impact to their food, and to me, there's no better way

to do it than a chili pepper. Now, yeah, I mean, I've been cooking with those things for thirty something years, and so you know, people might say, yeah, of course you're gonna say that, But I think I think there's I think they're really important and I think very few people have a lot of knowledge about them. But you before asked me about mentorship. Who were some of your early mentors, you know, Jonathan Waxman. I would say that Jonathan was the first person to teach me about good food.

I was already working in the restaurant business. I was I was the chef at a restaurant when I was like twenty years old. I had no idea what I was doing. I just got it. Was one of those things. And this happens a lot in the restaurant business, where like all of a sudden you're standing there and like somebody gets fired or quits or something, and all of a sudden, you're like you're next in line, you know, like they're like here's here's your apron, like you know,

it's time here, like you're in charge. And so I did it for like a year, but it was I was not good. I mean, and and also like because I was inexperience and not knowing what I was doing, I wasn't even hiring people that were good because I was. I was intimidated to hire people that were better than I was. So I had to come to terms with that. And then finally I was like I just needed to learn how to cook. This is insane. I should not

be running a kitchen. And it was a busy restaurant on the Upper East Side, and so then Jonathan tells the story about how he came in one night and he walked into the kitchen like the owner like brought him into the kitchen and he was like looked at me, like he he tells the story, how I looked like

I was. I was like worn out, like sitting in the in the corner of the kitchen, just like just beat up, and I believe it, you know, right, I was just so stressed out, and then I went to work for him, like a few months later as a line cook, just wanted to learn how to cook, you know, and Jonathan's restaurants. I went to work at Bud's first. Then I worked at a place called Jams that he had, and then a French biech show called Hulo's all in New York City. This is long before you were born.

And all the people that worked in these restaurants could really cook their asses off. And so that's how you again association being around people who are good at what they do. There's nothing like it. It's not just one person, it's always the environment that you're in. So that's why, you know, you go into a situation like that. I wasn't an experienced cook, but I knew the basics. So if somebody said to me, I want you to make a burr blanc, which is a it's a white wine

butter sauce. It's one of the it's like people don't make them that much anymore, but it's a very classic, very basic French sauce, you know, and it's basically white wine and butter and like, so we go. I go to Jonathan's restaurant, and he was doing stuff like blood orange for blanc, right, and red pepper bur blanc and things like that. So basically, when you think about that,

I'm like, Oh, I got it. I know how to make a blanc because I know the basics of making that sauce and then I'm going to add blood orange to it, blood orange juice or syrup or whatever it's gonna be, and then I'm going to have a blood orange for blanc. So that's what I'm talking about. In terms of learning the basics and the fundamentals at a

culinary school, it's invaluable. Okay, Now, if I had gone to work for Jonathan without going to culinary school, I would have learned how to make a blood orange blanc. But I'm not sure I would have been able to make a different blanc going somewhere else. You see what I'm saying. Yeah, No, I do absolutely. Getting back to the question at the top of this podcast, school versus no school, I get asked all the time should I

go to school? And what do you say? I say yes, because even though school is not a good subject to me in general, and even though I wasn't a great student at the French Culinary Institute. The things that I learned there I still practice today. So like in other words, if you're a young cook and you want to come work for me, and you want to come to a moufie and you are dedicated to learning how to cook at a moufee, I can teach you every one of those dishes. And so you will learn every single one

of those dishes from start to finish and over. If you put the time and you put the energy in, you will be able to cook those dishes as well as you possibly can. When you leave that restaurant, you will not know anything except those dishes. So when something breaks down, a dish breaks down, doesn't work, something separates whatever it is, you're not there's a chance you're not gonna know how to fix it because you don't have the fundamentals in the basis. Okay, So that's what it

gives you. It doesn't make you a chef by going to culinary school. And that's a common mistake that people make. Just because you go to Coulinary school doesn't mean when you graduate you're an hour a chef. You you literally you have the tools for an entry level job in a good restaurant period. It's the beginning of the beginning, and it's important. Do you remember what your first day was like? My first day, Yeah, the first day, the first day. This is that's a really funny question because

the first day there was no gas on. We couldn't get con to put the gas on. And this is like early eighties, right, and I knew how things got done in New York City. So I finally said to the woman who owned it, Dorothy Hamilton's who unfortunately passed away at an early age not too long ago. I said, Dorothy, you need to put some money in an envelope and give it to these guys. Oh, that's that's our that's our fish on, fish on pompiote. You need to you need to put some money in envelope and give it

to these guys so they'll turn on the gas. I'm serious, Like that's the way, that's why it used to happen. I'm just telling you, Sophie. So anyway, um, and Julia Child was coming to the school. What on your first day? That like literally at the third or fourth day. She was coming to do a story with Good Morning America. About this French um, this French school opening in New York City, Like we like, cuisine was not a thing in America yet, and this was a very forward thinking thing,

you know. And we had no gas. We cooked on these little beautane burner things. For Julia Child. It's a it's a famous story, the Frenche. It was the beginning of the French collini. It was nuts, all right, Should I get the fish? I get the fish? Okay, hold on, how's it looking? It was done great. See what's great about this is I'm opening up the de parchment paper.

It's a little crispy because it gets a little roasted, and you can actually serve it right in the paper on the plate, so that the all the all the broth from the fish. Yeah, and you know, I put a little lemon juice in the wine in there, now, Sophie. Most of the time, what I would do here is makes sort of like fresh. I could do like cherry tomatoes and basil or something like that. But I just want you to I just want you to taste this. I put that that that's her. It's very hot. Be careful,

it's really good. Do you like it? Yeah? I like that seasoning a lot. The season is good, but but also it's like really juicy it is, and it's like it sits in this like this little broth that it makes itself, cuts a lot some water. Yeah, young, Okay, you should do this more often. Always Hungry is created by Bobby Flay and Sophie flight. Our executive producer is Christopher Hasiotis. Always Hungry is produced, edited, and mixed by Jonathan has Dresser. Always hung is engineered by Sophie Flay.

For more podcasts from my Heart Radio, visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows