And this is Michael Rosenbaum Alex Luthor, and you're listening to Always hold on to Smallville.
Welcome to Always hold on to Smallville. In this podcast, we've talked about each and every episode of the Young Superman show that ran from two thousand and one to twenty eleven on the WB and the CW. I'm your host, Zach Moore, and we're back with another top ten episodes. That's right, the top ten episodes of Smallville as voted by you, the listeners, and this time the number eight
entry Finale, the series finale. Now, as y'all heard on the podcast proper in our Finale Part one and Finale Part two coverage, we were all pretty critical of the finale, but as you might have also heard in our finale intermission podcast, a lot of you out there enjoy the finale. Even so seeing it here on the top ten list was surprising to me. But that's why I open it
up to the listeners. Right, the people have spoken, and speaking of finale as a title, I joked about pilot being a very uninspired title, but I also said, in its defense, a lot of series title they're pilot pilot. There's no proper title for the pilot episode, but for a finale, come on finale like now, that is lazy, that is uninspired and my mind will never change about that. But before we get into it, let's look back on what we gave finale on the letter grade scale on
the podcast Proper. Of course, we split up the finale and those discussions into part one and part two, So finale Part one had myself, Lance Laster, Caavante, Chillis, Matt Trux, and Victoria Malay And here are are grades. I gave finale Part one to see, Lance Gay, finale part want to see. Gavante gave finale part want to see, Matt gave finale part want to see, and Victoria gave Finale Part one a C plus, so slightly more positive than us.
And for Finale Part two that was myself, Lance Laster, Cavante, Chillis, and Matt Trux. I gave Finale Part two a C plus, Lance Gay Finale Part two a B minus. Gavante gave Finale Part two of B minus, and Matt gave Finale Part two of B minus. That was interesting, as we discussed in those podcasts, separating the episodes out looking at them that way, in a way I'd never had before. And of the two, despite the egregious choices, a couple
of egregious stories that were made. I'm talking about the costume, I'm talking about Lex's memory wipe. On the whole. Part two is a better episode than part one. But in this top ten episode discussion, for the sake of conversation and votes and rankings, I counted the finale as one episode. It was aired as one episode, it was intended to be watched and consumed as one episode, and that's how we kept it in our top ten rankings, and it
ended up as number eight. And what's interesting here is you're going to hear a lot of the same people talk about the series finale, So you're gonna hear a lot of the same takes. You might hear some variations or slightly more or less positive or negative angles that we all take in this conversation. That's what's interesting to me anyway about this conversation, because you're hearing a lot of the same people talk about the same thing, but
at a different time. Obviously, these were recorded at a different time than we discussed the series finale for the podcast proper, so a lot of it will sound the same, forgive us there, but some of it will be a little different, probably a little different gear. So I hope that again, its presence on this list reassures all the listeners out there who enjoyed the finale and were disappointed in our coverage and lack of enthusiasm about it on
the podcast proper. But I also have to apologize because most of us are still pretty critical of the same things we were in our series finale coverage of Finale Part one and Finale Part two. Let's hear us talk about it now. I'm again joined by Lance Laster from Always hold On to Arrow, Victoria Malay, and Matt Truix from Lewis and Clark, the new podcast of Superman and many of the podcasts you're on the Always hold On
To network and Patreon. So without further ado, let's discuss the number eight episode of Smallville finale.
Kids, just don't fall out of Scott. What are you trying to tell me?
Dad?
Then? From another planet?
So what are you gonna managed?
Superman?
We have the destiny together on the on different side, you're super You're here to be forced.
That's where you.
Every world needs its heroes.
Time to become the Luther in the destined to be.
I'm believing you, God, have you be the hero.
Finale? First of all, was this on anyone's top ten list? I'll go first, it's yours. I wasn't on mine? What about you?
It was not on mine?
No, very very very far from the top ten list.
That's a noe for me.
Doc.
Yes, to be fair, I think it was on Matthew Rocus.
He's winning bingo between us.
He's I think every single episode is. In fact, did I do the math wrong? Am I just using his top ten list for this thing? That might be? Honestly, I didn't think of finale was gonna be in the top ten. If you love the finale, hey, good for you.
We're sorry.
No, I am ready to give credit to the finale for some good things. I'm not here to shit on it.
Good.
I'm glad there's a genuine fan perspective here in the finale. That's good.
Someone had to do it.
Friday to thirteenth, which was an omen in of itself that that's when the finale was gonna air. And Lance and I removemates of the time, and we sat and we watched this, and we were like, we kept looking at each other and we're like, he hadn't put the suit on yet. There's still time. There's still time. There's like thirty minute stuff like, there's still time, right, So what are your memories of us watching that together all those years ago?
We just kept waiting for something like to happen, Like I remember both of us going like, all right, here we go when like stuff like you know, actually hit the fan and like some actions started happening. For much of the beginning parts of the episode, it's like, you know, a lot of cwnis going on with the wedding and stuff. So when some stuff started to happen, we were like, all right, let's go. And then we waited a while and nothing happened for a while.
Watched a bunch of montages together.
Yeah, well, it's like, we spent so much time will they won't they for a wedding which kind of happened but then didn't. Where were you, Victoria? You remember the first time we watched the series FINALEUS Mobile.
It's vaguely because it wasn't live. I watched the first episode of season ten live. But it was crazy though, because watching it I watched it like last night and today, the two two.
Parter finale part one and finale Part two.
My problem with it is there were actual moments that really I think maybe it's because we watched the pilot recently that had me so nostalgic and like really was
again giving me the feels. But the problem is they would just take it two steps too far on everything, like the wedding, Like that whole scene where they're reading each other's vows is actually like really sweet and I know it's CW, but like it's this very interesting, vulnerable and honestly something I love, like actually exploring what it would be like if you're dating a superhero and having to make those kinds of choices. She's like, oh my god.
I was like, oh, I did not like the Roundie Rown Merry go round camera work with that, but okay, but I was ready to forgive it. We were trying to be artsy, we were trying to be creative. There wasn't going to be another episode, so we were going all out. But then like when they brought up the vowels again, I did like the montage during the wedding ceremony. I was like, what is this show. My jaw was on the floor, and like, you know, it's a lot if I'm saying, like, let's stop doing close ups of
Tom mulling space. That's my point. And I feel like this is the wedding is I'm harping on it, but like I feel like that was with everything. They just had a good idea, but then they would write it into the ground. And that's why it was a two part episode, because are like, wait, have we written in this concept into the ground? No, we need three more pages worth of it.
Great, all right, good initial thoughts from you, Victoria Matt Can you recall when you saw finale? Did you watch that faithful Friday the thirteenth in twenty eleven, I did.
Something marrible to people I was with. I was home, like right after college whatever that semester was. A friend of mine was down from New York. We were spending the weekend. I'm like, sorry, just one thing, Like, we have to watch Smallville. It's the finale. It's ten years. It'll be great though, he'll become a superman, he'll be awesome.
You've seen a few episodes, sure, Oh, everything's great. And I felt so self conscious watching that episode with my friend and my parents the first time, because I'm just like, oh no, it's terrible. Oh no, it's terrible.
Wait has anyone else ever felt personally victimized and self conscious when watching Smavell with the friends like raise your hands.
Yes, raising my hand on audio? But yeah, it was by the third montage, I was like, oh no.
This is the show that you wanted us to watch. You've been watching for ten years, Matt.
Right, and it's Friday nights. They had run out of any story. There was like this much story in these two hours, and most of it is just like, guess what he's gonna do at the end, Guess what it's gonna do, you know. And then when talk about blue balls, like when it finally happens and we're just close on his face the entire time, it was just such a.
When he quote unquote puts on the costume, lifts his hair, like cgi costume kind of floating onto his body and we stay super tight. That's when we knew. We see the Brandon Rause suit in the Fortress, which we saw that Martha made for him in the season premiere.
Yes, let's let's discuss. Let's discuss that suit. Very briefly, because we see the Randon Routh suit at the end of season nine and I think the beginning of season ten ish. By the time it's later on, that's a different s. It's a smoothed out S and the fabrics different, like at the end.
Like, yeah, the one that Jonathan gives him.
Yeah, the one that Jonathan gives him. And then just that the shirt rip at the end. You know why am I acting this out on the podcast? Yeah? Rip?
That is someone glued a. Superman return s to a blue T shirt that Tom Walling was wearing as he ran out the roof. Now there were a few rabbit holes will go down as we talked through here, but the suit is the big I think we can all agree the lack of seeing Tom Walling and Superman costume was crushing, right.
Crushing the nerve crushing. But I was pleasantly surprised that I feel like we got more flying than I would I was expected.
Well if it wasn't him, So yeah, that cgi Superman flying around.
I seriously, I literally thought, because I just thought again years later, I just thought it was just going to be that last shot at the end, because I think I'd seen like that little clip at the end, but when he floats, I was like, for me though actually exciting because I thought we were literally getting like the selch.
Speaking that last shot. I will say the last scene is great John Williams music. You have Lois and and Jimmy's little brother. The voice of Michael McKean is probably white through a door and Lex Luthor was elected president in twenty eighteen because smallvel people can't do math. And then know when election years happened and you have all the players in place, and then you have them bump onto the stairs and it's kind of fun. He's like
miss Lane, She's like, oh, that is so hot. When you say that that was pretty I know.
I was like, oh my god, finally someone acknowledges.
Ut for seven years.
This is my lowest is my woman.
So we get that a little cute moment and he's like, kill the minister, how about be a few minutes late. And he goes up to the top of the roof. You're like, they do push it a little too far? Like why is it extreme extreme slow motion doraor I need to see him open their.
Doorroh his vest take off? Y?
You know all that's it's like, okay, we get.
It as someone who again it's very pro Tom Welling taking off his clothing I big big draw smavel for me, and of course the amazing storytelling, but everything was just taken too far. Like yeah, I also think they used slow moo so many times throughout the episodes that you were like, by the it had no impact when you used it. At the end, you're like, you've you've burned this this shot too many times.
Well, the worst LOMO of all time in Smallville is in this episode, and it's during the wedding when Chloe sees the wrong ring and she's like.
I kind of love that.
I wish I wish.
I kind of love the irony of that, and I wish that had been played more than like the stupid overwrought drama Apocalypse Cult, because that's that's kind of like to me, I love the irony of that. Like she's like, no, don't put the ring on because she's trying to save Clark. But when everyone else is like, oh my god, she still hasn't gone over it exactly exactly.
We took care of the seven years ago on the show.
Like, like Chloe, I thought we had our personal growth moment.
No, okay, what all the people in the stands thing, the stands, the seats, the audience. Oh okay, this so so I got it. Let's finish with the costume and then we'll talk on these other things so we can go on and on. I know. So yeah, the costume. If that ending was the ending of season five or even season seven, I would have been like, well done, show amazing. You brought it home, all right, But let's not forget back. In season nine we already had a
shirt rip. It was in Warrior, which is an underrated episode by the way. They want the warri Rangel where they go to the comic con and all that. So I watched a couple of scenes on YouTube every now and then, which is the Clark and Lex scene. We'll get the Lex scenes, yeah, and then the last scene right where he goes up to the roof and he rips open the shirt and so like in little capsules,
those are great. I really think they are. But it just after coming after seeing cgi Superman fly around and do things like, it's not very fulfilling to see Clark Kent rip open his shirt and have the s on there. I mean, that's my what do you guys think that's a fair opinion to have about that.
I think so, especially considering in other seasons we've seen him do more super heroic looking things than that at the like that we saw in this episode, you know, in previous seasons as him and as the Blur putting the glow back on top of the Daily Planet. That was really cool. The train thing, yeah, standing with the flag, stuff like that that we've already seen, the stopping the nuclear missile like now season five, you know. So it's
like we've seen like real super cool things already. You couldn't give us like something that was like finale worthy, like earlier in this season, like in Homecoming we saw him, you know, stop that explosion the helicopter.
We saw it again in this episode. Superman's introduction scene Tyler Hecklin's introduction scene in Supergirl season two, episode one. That is what I wanted to be the last scene of Smallvillehere he's like almost yes, oh there's a space plane and he rips open his shirt, Like I would have lost my if that was the last scene of Smallville. But instead it was them opening the door, and I'm thinking that was great again. It's great in a capsule,
but for ten years, you know, it's disappointing. I think we can all say, as people who had watched this for ten years, we wanted to see one thing when to see Clark becomes Superman. Did we get that? I mean technically yes, but it was an unfulfilling way of getting it right.
Part of that promise, though, is just inherently seeing Tom Welling in a Superman suit, and it's it's the easiest part of this.
You know.
But also like they sold it to the network with no flights, no tights.
Well they sold it to Tom Welling with no flights, no tights, which is the real problem. Like like they've been like as the years have gone on, more and more has come out about this, right, and he's like, I don't think we earned it. You know, that wasn't what our show was about. It's like, Tom, you just
didn't want to wear the costume. Like, let's just be honest about this, Like like there was a script written where he was going to be Superman much earlier, and then he was gonna be Superman the whole episode, and that's what I thought it was going to be. But he went to Peter Roth and he's like, hey, I don't think this is our show. We haven't earned it yet. And so they basically changed the script because of Tom
Willings's preferences. And that's and I think that's why we had not much story, because they had to like, well, we got to plash the Superman back because we can only afford a cgi Superman who's one thousand feet away for so much of the episode. And honestly, I really do think it's I think two thousand and eleven, Tom willing he was burned out. He agreed never to wear a Superman costume. He thought he might be typecast. But if you played Clark Give for ten years, you're already
type cast. So I don't understand why that's still a concern.
I heard that Tom was getting seven figures per at the end, was getting like seven figures per episode. What you need to pay him because he's number one on the call sheet and he's directing and producing at this point.
Seven figures an episode that buys you a Superman suit that puts a cape on your back, Like, come on, man.
We all were on that same page. Dark side. Let's talk about dark side. This is kind of a season talk two because it's a payoff of the season and the series. I was like, Okay, we're gonna have smoke Side, right, So we called him on the forums. I think that's what they call Side and I'm like, Okay, that's fine because it's they gotta save for the series finale. You know, that's fine. They've never done Dark Side and live action before. I'll be patient. It's cool. Mike Lyron's side is leis
his dad on the show. He's been in the season. I'm sure he'll do the voice piche' do on the animated series. It's all gonna come together. And then he still smokes Side for like two scenes, and then he possesses zombie Lionel Luther because John Glover's a lot cheaper than than a CGI monster of Dark Side, I will not true, which is a ridiculous anson. I joke about that line for about a year.
I was like, oh my god, John Glover is like a master of the craft, and like, look where we are. I just feel like I just got a very strong vibe being like, oh my god, Okay, everyone, we can do this. It's the last one. Like everyone just dug down deep and grounded.
That's exactly what That's what I always thought. Definitely that you were watching it the first time, like seeing that that was his last scene, that was John Glovery's last scene. It's just like, oh man, you're going out like this, steally happy to get you back.
It's like, this is what we get him back for. We get him back for and I will annihilate you.
When we were watching like oh, well, okay, well he flew through the vessel of dark Side. Now he's gonna go put on the Superman costume and fight real dark Side and the world will see that Superman and because I like what he says to him, He's like, hey, it's easier to hate, but love is stronger than hate. And then like, okay, that's a good message. It's a good super message. He's hope, he's all that right, He's the light. That's what they would talk about this whole season.
It's all coming back to me watching this. And then he flies through Lionel dark Side Zombies line or whatever we called him, and then he disperses into crows and then that's it. And then he could just goes up cgi Superman goes up and pushes the planet away and that cures every one of their evil that didn't make that that that was very inspiring to the There.
Was like a thrown where they were like, it's the proximity. It's activating everyone. So all he had to do was like push.
It's like Superman returns him pushing the continent away while a short of Kryptonites in his side. But honestly, it's just ridiculous.
It was strange because like, there are a lot of moments that felt very nineteen seventies Superman, but they were not working right. Like they were like, let's do this call back, and I'm like, I don't know or and I think like the score, and I was just like, I don't think this is quite right.
Okay, well about the scope, No, no, I will say this about score. I love the fact that used the Williams music. You hadn't heard it in the show since season two. And I like the blur thing like done dun dun d d D. But I spent my I spent the last five years of the show thinking, oh, I can't wait to the finale when they turn that into the Supermann, Like I can hear it in my head musically, where it's like duh da du like it just I need to go.
And yet there is definitely a to mash all of that up and make it work. These themes and like the you know, the way that they come together musically, it makes sense.
We believe in you make this happen.
It's a project of mine for sure. But like it was good to hear the Williams music, and it was good to have the actual Smallville themes in there, like you know, like the Blur theme, the Clark and Lowis theme was good as well because that one could also go into the Clark and Lowis like the can You Read My Mind theme from the seventies movies, so that could also get in there as well. But like we didn't kind of like Zach sent was saying, we didn't really get it, and it's it's unfortunate.
What I wanted was a reorchestration like they did what Mark Snow did in season two been said, But I mean to your point, Victory, like they pushed play on the CD, you know, on the track, and it's like we're gonna loop this. Yeah, last couple of scenes of the show. But I will say, like even watching it now, like I was like, we were like exchanging some glances and comments of frustration, but like the end did it did end on a feel good note when like the ass comes out of you like s I got.
The emotional when Chloe ends telling the story to her son for me, and I don't know about you guys, but it's very hard to remember the first time you heard about Superman because he is so embedded into popular culture worldwide, and so I liked it, Like it was very emotional for me because like I could empathize with being a kid, like learning about Superman for the first time and just being in awe and wonder like, so I thought those like there were some moments that were great,
and then there were some moments yeah, with the score and stuff, and I was just like no, no, I think that was another thing too that made it. It was just like consistently bad then fine, but there were these little moments where they like grasped it, but then they would like let it go, then they'd drop it.
So let me get this straight. Clark Kent's Life is a comic book published by DC Comics.
Oh yeah, because it was a DC comic and like the DC representation of Superman.
That's what takes me out of it.
I mean, I don't understand the in universe logic of that. What are your thoughts on that tricks?
The universe breaking of it just takes me out of it completely. I I don't understand why they do the like I get that, it's I'm so sorry to I get what you're saying, Victoria, like, I think that's their intention here, but I'm the weirdo fan. That's just like, I'm sorry, do people know he's from Smallville?
Now?
You know?
No?
No, no, I think no, No, I think it's I think it's too.
Pete and Lana are in this comic.
Yeah, but I would I would pay a thousand dollars to have that issue of that comic.
Yeah. No, I don't understand that as a but I do understand. I understand Superman being a character or a publishable character in that world. But obviously that's just that's too close. Like they that's his origin story. They wouldn't do no, like.
Someone could pick that up who went to small vill High and be like this even if they because the thing I was thinking, I was like, well they change his name or they just refer to him as.
Kaal El throughout right, like the Spider Man thing.
Yeah, or but like I feel like someone could pick that up. Who went to small ble Hie be Like Jesus really sounds like this kid I went to high school with looks like him too.
Exactly.
We saved everybody and looked all said.
Well, not only that, but it's just like Clark was like semi famous, Like you know, Clark was a state champion high school quarterback. Clark was friends with Lex Luthor from the Jump. Clark, you know was his name is on all these police reports that they still have records of it that they keep in the small Lildle Police department. All roads lead to Clark Kent. So if that comic was published, literally everybody knows.
He's also still in the public eye as an intrepid reporter for the Daily Plast the greatest Metropolitan but.
He wears glasses when he does that, so he's also.
And he's also engaged like the most famous like newswoman like in the world.
Yeah, exactly, probably a better Christian amport, probably better.
But my favorite line of this entire finale is when Lois is arguing with that other what's the reporters and the other one Janet random hot girl and yeah sure, uh. Lois is like trying to convince her to tell the president something. She's like, no one's gonna believe you, Lois, and then Lois like she gets a stapler and then she knocks her out and she says, I'm sorry I had to do that. I wouldn't have done it if the world wasn't at stake and you weren't such a bitch. That's my favorite line.
Of the feminism feminism women supporting women, Lois freaking call.
Your dad, well, who was not at the wedding?
He was not on the He was not at the wedding, but he was also not on the plane. Wasn't he supposed to be on the plane?
Wasn't, thank you?
And then also he wasn't the president. The president was the secretary.
That was the president. Afterwards, Okay, he like gets out of the bathroom. I guess he was.
On the toilet the whole time, all right, But she barges in on the Secretary of Defense, and like earlier in episode, they're just like, oh, he was whisked away with the joint chiefs, So does that doesn't that mean that he was on the plane, like the bathroom was supposed to.
Be around stressed stressed person. Also, why is she like, I'm Sam Lane's daughter.
Yeah yeah, And where's your sister at the wedding? You know, let's talk about the wedding for a piece of.
Crappy that's been well established.
Why is Clark not wearing his glasses right during this wedding?
Yes?
What well the glasses. By the way, the glasses are smaller if you guys notice this. When he got the glasses in season ten, they were smaller than they were in like season nine and seven when they like hint at some glasses like well it was like okay, it's more than one moment, but they're gonna be smaller. I'm like, why you think he's such a dick about the glasses, man, Like glasses are in you know, like like I just don't understand. And a huge dick move by Clark. I know,
I guess it paid off. Lois is like, come down the aisle, Clark is not there, so for like she thinks that he left her at the altar for a while and then he like swoops in the side. Hey, I'm gonna walk you down there.
All.
I thought that was a dick move. Victoria tell me, was that romantic or not?
Okay? I had friends who did this. I mean obviously it was planned, like the groom went and got the bride and walked around the aisle.
Yeah, this was not planned.
Okay, Okay. I'm like, if it's right for the couple's right, well, because and it's like then fine, I'm not judging it. I think, well, you know what, here's the thing. It probably no because he can't use it. I was like, it was honestly, probably just a blink and then he was there. But I was like, no, we can't use his spouse in front of a chapel full of people.
Nope, that's how little plot they had that this became a dramatic turn.
And because it also was yeah, I was like, well did they just hype it for like seven and a half minutes and that's why it felt long? And like he left it and I was like, no, Also, was she supposed to walk by herself? And she I thought she was supposed to walk by herself and then just like was really nervous and then Clark was there.
Well I thought that too, But then when they make a point that like Clark is not standing up there, so I don't know. That's what stick out to me this time. It's crazy that we spend so much time on this wedding and then it doesn't happen, and for some reason, the darkness turns the Holy water dark and bubbly it turns into venom.
Yeah. I was just about to say, look like the venom symbiat.
Tom Hardy like comes out of the well.
And then Clark end of part one he fights possessed Oliver and then the end of part two he fights possessed zombie Line and Luther. I'm like, come on, this is what we're doing in this series finale.
Also like the fact that he didn't have to. The way he got the darkness out of Oliver was like I believe in you.
I'm like what, yeah, it's yeah. And also I got to be the one that asked us where was Pete? Why was Pete not at this wedding?
Pete hoocked on that kryptonite gum. Yeah, yeah, he wasn't able to kick it.
Was Pete in jail at the time.
Yeah, I believe Sam Jones the third was criminally.
Incarsat recently incarcerated.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, he got out and he's cleaned up his ax.
He was he was the first to fall in a long line here.
Did I tell you guys that I met him an auditioned with him once? Fun fact, Oh yeah, it was my first casting internship in la I think it was the end of the day and everyone wants to go home. But I went up to my casting office, I'm like, oh, that was the season regular on small Though. She's like, okay, bring him in, and so all these other assistants my god, which it was probably like a Friday night God, we just want to get out of here, which I now
fully empathize with. But it was cool, like we brought him in and then I was the person reading the script with him, so I got to like have a little moment with Pete Ross.
Cool.
I should have been like, do you want some kryptonite lace scum script?
Night free? Lana was not in this episode at all.
That was endlessly disappointing. What are you doing? Was your weird beauty of the b show on? At that point?
I think it was, wasn't it? Yeah?
But like again, a.
Day of work. It's a day of work.
I don't know what capacity, Like, I think in my mind, I thought, Okay, if we can get a shot of like Christian Kuric watching a TV and seeing Superman Save to Day and not in approval or something why she's like feeling her Kryptonite necklace which is now clear or something like that, I would have been happy with that. In fact, we can we can try a fan out that one day, we can make that happen. But I'm sure there's some scene in Beating the Beast which she's
watching TV we can use that. But I don't know if remember last time she came on the show in season eight, she completely derailed everything and it was terrible, classic Lana classic, classic horrible hair. Yes, oh horrible. It's some bad hair too, Chloe hair.
No, but like, oh my god, no, Chloe's hair was terrible in this. I think Kristen was going through the phase that like stunningly beautiful women go through where they're like, Okay, I'm just something ugly with my hair, because like, I don't want you to just see how beautiful I am.
Let's try and bangs in the Beatles Bob maybe yeah.
No, seriously, like Scarlett Johanson just got over hers keep going.
Well, I just don't know how they would have incorporated her because they would have to explain, Hey, I got cured of my kryptonite Prometheus suit the Lex made and then it's like, oh, great that we can be together. Now forget this wedding with Lows. I guess exactly what. I have no doubt that's what Clark would have done, because that's what he's done dime after dyme on this show. So it actually was like a blessing in the sky.
She didn't want to. I'm sure they asked her. I know, Welling was like, oh, we got to get Lana back.
What do you want to see for Clark and your trying to season Clark.
And Lex, Clark and Lex, maybe Alana Clark.
Lois the triangle again?
Who knows.
I want to see a lot of the people that we know that the fans dealt and the show come back and and see those relationships.
What do you think the chances of getting christitted.
Mike back on the Shower, Well, I'd like to think they're good, but I don't. Always my reality sometimes it is different than other realities. But I hope they know that we want them back, and I know, we're gonna do everything we can see in the day.
I think it was for the best that she was not in the episode, although she was all over the flashback, so it was like, you keep who's this woman that he keeps saving year after year and.
He's not here?
Just as odd.
Yeah, and I never thought she'd show up.
I missed her. I like your I liked you. Well, I'm like, well they got lex so they'll get Lana. I liked your pitch Zach on how to do it? You just show are kind of like from a distance, she's observing.
And she's in Paris somewhere.
I'm gonna write that fanfic, don't you.
Really Natalie Portman grabs some old footage and just throw her in, right.
So that's Lana. Another thing we have to talk about Ghost Dad confusing the weirdest creative choice I have seen in a television show. Maybe I don't know, Latoria, what are your thoughts on ghost Dad?
Honestly speechless? What the actual Like I was like at first, I was like, okay, so it's like happens when he's like it's his in his mind, like he's talking. I get that, Like that's a commonly used trope like you know, you're talking to the character in your mind, and then like Martha comes in. I'm like, wait did she see him too? And then and then he said the wedding, she's kind of looking at him. I was like, wait, what.
What?
And then also like we're and then we're the fortress and like Jarrelle is like he's like, all right, remember how I've been like the worst for ten years? And Martha like let's let's let's all give him like some props.
Like so this is such a great I mean, it was obviously Forest and Harry, but like I was ready to accept this resolution between Clark and Durell because now, like again, if I'm going to insert it into like the Superman's seventies timeline, it's like, now, this is how they got to the point where they have like not this relationship filled with animosity.
Fine, I know, I just don't understand, like how does he give him the suit? Does Martha see him? Does Clark see him the whole time or does he only see him that one time? And it's like unclear, It's all unclear, and it's and it kind of boils down to you shouldn't have killed off Jonathan kn't if you wanted him in here this much, you shouldn't have killed him.
Yep, well I explained the magical realism. But like, this is the same thing that BVS did. Guys, like they did this.
Just a couple of years ago Smallville exactly.
I know it's oh, it's nuts, but but like it just it keeps coming up, the fact that they actually let him. It's just no offense. Oh, this seems dangerous. No offense to the title of this very podcast that I listened to by myself, even when I'm.
Not on it.
What was the point of that line?
Yes, the haters, I'm sorry, but the podcast.
The title is perfect for this podcast. Is it perfect for the last thing that Jonathan says in a very contrived weird ghost at situation?
No, but you know what, But what it does though, it gives us a plus one for podcast title set an episode. That's what it gives.
So it was all did anyone catch the Jirell line of like, but it was your time in Smallville with Jonathan and Martha Kent and all the other people there, so like like and the rest, we're not going to name everybody you know, and Whitney and b Girl.
Sure yeah, Sureriff Adams, I got you, guys, I mean like you no, no, no, really, like thinking about the reason the really kick started this podcast was like, oh, I know I know the name because I remember that line from the show. I was like, that's the perfect title for a podcast. I always want to do Smallville. It's meta because the small is the town saw the show.
But I haven't sooner agree with you guys, because like the John the canty served on a purpose, you would feel his absence more if he wasn't there instead of like being in a geas all the time.
Like except instead of being in like six scenes.
Yeah, well, I really want to know what direction they gave John Schneider because like it's it's like he's kind of there and he's not. He's on the fringes right, but then he decides to like before he like touches Clark's hand or Martha's shoulder, like he like hesitates and like like hmm, I'm gonna do it, like I'm gonna cross that barrier or something right, And I'm like, who
are you a spirit? Are you their imagination? Like I want to know what they told him he was, But as y'all mentioned earlier, I think my favorite aspect of ghost Dad was the fact that he changed clothes for the wedding, like but it was still flannel. It was just darker, Like he cleaned up nice for the wedding.
It's his fancy flannels aslannel.
I just it's bizarre. It really is so bizarre. So if Clark, I did like the scene, the little nugget of a scene when Oliver comes to see Clark he's in the graveyard. He's like, hey, you know all the things I remember about graduating, I don't remember anything about the day, so my parents weren't there, right, And he tries to connect with them, and Clark's like whatever, because Clark,
that's how he is on the show. But like if you had seen Martha sitting in the pew and like there's that space, like they framed the shot that space next to Martha, you'd be like, oh man, that's like you see like a ray of sunlight going in the through the window to that spot. That would have been far more effective than than John Schneider just like walking around like so nice to see John Schneider, but just bizarre usage of him. We kind of touched on John Glover.
I mean, it was unfortunate that we didn't get a scene between Lex and uh Lionel again, but I understand that their time was limited. So Chloe was fine, I guess. I mean she kind of exited the scene pretty early.
She said before she left, she said that she's going to Star City. Where is star City?
Thank you?
Like in regards to Smallville, Kansas?
And what timeframe is it in?
Yeah, it' supposed to be Seattle, so she's supposed to go with the there was a little apocalypse happening. She's like, I'm gonna go to Star City. It's like, girl, what, like, how are you gonna get there?
I think Chloe's I also, can we all understand Chloe being like I have done your dirty work and not been loved by you for ten years. If this is how it's gonna happen, then like bye, cool.
Well, I can't say anything. I'm just happy that she ended up with the Batman of this universe if she didn't give the Superman. Is everybody happy with that?
Sure? Absolutely?
Yes?
Yeah she.
Earned that.
Justin Hartley, she earned it.
And I'm sure that if they made a real green arrow show, he would n't up with the Black Canary. I mean, they wouldn't make him get with some like blonde computer hacker person again. But anyway, an itt o'tool. Clark says the most disrespectful thing he's ever said to his mom in this episode because he's not gonna sell the farm, and she's like, I didn't want you to misunderstood. This is our home. You have to embrace the past. He's like, I'm sorry, mom, but you do have to
move on. Like that was the most condescending jerked your mom? But an that old tool was. I mean, I liked her in the episode.
She's always she's always fire and like. Even though there was one of the most condescending lines in that scene, it was it was still one of the best acting scenes in the episode.
In the finale, absolutely it was on Yes, so test Mercer. You know, I came to really love Cassidy Freedman's character and in her performance on the show. They really never knew what to do with her because they didn't know if she was good or bad, and they decided to rick on her and Alexis sister, which I am convinced they did not know that because they kind of implied they had like a thing going on, you know, in season eight, Like I mean Lex, you know, incest, I
don't know, he's a bad guy. So Game of Thrones hashtag finalees topical. I f also bad for Tests in this episode because she had no scenes with any other characters. She's running around trying to save the world. She gets kidnapped. It was really awesome to see her save herself because she is a Checkmate trained agent, so on you right, But then she gets killed by Lex at the end. So like I felt really bad for Tests, Like what a tragic into this character.
It was just not a good ending for her. It was just it was very unceremonious, you know what I mean, Like she's she's just literally by herself and all that work for nothing.
Basically at least she gets to have the Rosenbaum scene, you know, like that that kind of felt like, here's the promise fulfilled to the fact that she's a luthoriit it sucked that she he wasn't with Lionel, but it was nice to see them square off. It was very strange to see him the scene before talk about his sister that he's never actually met on screen, but I liked her getting to use that was the gu.
Almost were almost there, Victor. Do you have anything to say, Victoria?
Okay, sorry so sorry, No, No, it's fine.
I was just gonna say, like, well, it's just like, who can you afford to kill off? You have to have some deaths in the fin alley? But like She's was an invention of the show, right, I think?
So, well, well, technically, what do you hate Chloye so much? Mad? Why why you like.
That?
We're way past killing Chloe at this point. I know, at this point, Lex does have a sister in the comics, Lena Luther. Okay, her middle name is Lena, her name is Lutessa Lena Luther because Smallville folks. I agree, Matt her having a rosenbom scene kind of made up for most of her isolation and tragic end. So let's talk about it. Lover hate this finale no matter where you fall in the spectrum. I mean, I have my issues with it, but it would have been an epic fail
on all levels if Rosenbaumen and returns Lex. It's that simple. Like this show, you can say it's about Clark Lina Lex. I mean, but Lana kind of fell off. They were the three main characters at the beginning. But ultimately this show is about Clark and Lex Clark Kent Lex Luthor, their journeys to become the Lex Luthor of the comic books, the greatest roll amount of our time, and then Clark Kent becoming Superman, and without those parallel journeys, you know,
what is the point of the show. So yes, he was gone for a couple of seasons. I actually, you know, I love season nine and there's a lot of great stuff in season eight, and he had been a presence in season ten. It was very clever. They didn't really know. They knew they had to get him back. They're like, we're gonna clone him. He's gonna be a case be old. We don't parallel universes are now in play, like, we
don't know how we're gonna do it. But there was enough on the table where they could pull in Alex Luthor and have him for the finale one way or the other. And that was smart. And you know, up to the last minute, they did not think they were gonna get Rosamond back. I mean, like, like I remember the headlines, like Michael Rosamom says no to the finale, and I'm like, oh my god, my life is that is over? Like I've wasted ten years of my life.
What what is it?
He literally was like this, I can I can confirm.
Hell man.
Like at like several conventions that year, he would just keep getting asked and like no, guys, I'm sorry and me.
Do you think he was trying to make it a surprise no money.
That's why they gave him a million dollars or whatever the hell it was.
And I think it was a good move.
It was I think it. I think it was a million dollars.
It's the movie equivalent of like an athlete holding out from training camp, like they're trying to get that contract.
Higher if Rosamund doesn't come back. First of all, I don't know what they do for Lex in the finale, some stock footage, some audio looking out the window, reflection, like I mean, you can fan edit it. It's funny because because I was sharing a last scene small with some people on YouTube, you know, years ago, and I show him the last scene it has Lex becoming the president, and like, oh that's cool with like a fan make this.
I'm like, what do you mean. You're like, yeah, well looks like I mean, good for the fan who ever made this, but this is clearly like just threw this together, right. I'm like, no, they filmed this for the actual show. This is this is legitimate. They're like, you're serious, because it does. He was done for a day. So basically what they did they had him standing from a green screen and turn around, fit on that white suit. Yeah he's president. Check, and then you have him taking off
the mask. Check. Because I remember in the interviews she said he did four things. He was there one day and he had four things. I'm like, okay, that's two.
Yep.
I thought this was a great scene if if you take out the mind wipe thing, you can actually edit around it. I've played with this before because he kills her and then he walks and looks up and looks out the Window're like, oh, that's great because he says, I'm actually saving you from becoming me, which is a great lex Luthor mentality. I believe lex Or thinks that.
And then and then she has the ultimate dig at and she's like Clark already did that because he hates Superman and Clark I'm well, that's great, but then she reaches out with her hand and wipes his face, and we're like, then they act like we're supposed to know what this is, which is infuriating. And then they erase his memory and it's like she's like, what, well I remember? She's like nothing. I'm like, what do you mean?
Is he not?
Does he remember? Does he remember anything of his entire life? Is he a blank slate? Like this? This was in to your point, Victoria. Yeah, they kept trying to like, hey, we got to make it like it was in the seventy eight movie or the comic books, like lux doesn't know who Superman is. I'm like, no, you don't need to do that. You don't have any more story to tell. You can have Lex Luthor, No Clark a Superman. He already had a brilliant scene. And why I don't know
why they felt the need to erase his memory. What do you guys think about this?
I just think they were just trying to get to the status quo, which is that I don't know why, but I think that's what they were doing. So again, like, I don't understand the reasoning for it, but their reasoning is like to the people that don't know anything. They're just like, oh, well, Lex Luthor doesn't know his identity. It's a secret, so we have to get rid of it. We have to make him no know somehow, and that's
what they came up with. So obviously I disagree with him, and I think we're all in agreement on that, because it's just it's I think that that's just the wrong move and it makes no sense, especially when they literally bring it out a left field for this moment in the finale, right before it ends.
Yeah, it's pretquel Titus, you know, it's exactly what you're saying. It's they're feeling hamstrung, being tied into how it should be. But at that point, we'd already lived whatever two or three years with the fact that okay, he knows now, like that's just what this version of Superman is. So I was kind of looking forward to how are they going to set it up so that he can't just, you know, get on his loudspeaker and say like Clark
Candon Superman and go from there. But obviously they went the easier way.
Well, and I think, like thinking about that, Matt, I think they did it in an interesting way too, with the scene between Clark and Lax because he's like we need each other or like we are like I'm defined by you. It's like the Magneto Doctor Xavier thing. So like they know each other, they have this history and sorry, I'm an AVENGERSS girl and not an X Men girl, and like that history. Like the fact that they shared a history and we're once friends is like such a huge part of that.
Are you coming in? Why do you ask questions? Would like, yeah, I agree with God, that's the dynamic. I wanted to see between them absolutely, but.
Honestly, and I know we had a lot of montages, but for some reason, the Lex Lucia's Memory montage is very impactful for me. You know what was not impactful was the ride at Universal Studios. I felt that I went on in nineteen eighty seven when dark Side John Glover Lionel throws Clark through the barn and then you go into his pupil and we literally watched three minutes of small Voe clips and the cheesiest music is playing, and I just like my skin crawled for Tom Wealling.
I mean, like think because he's just like looking like sid like just like looking now look over here, Tom, look over there, look over here, look over there. Why egregious? Like everything had been like camp at this point. It just had gone into camp and it wasn't like good camp. It was bad camp. But I was like, you know, it's the last one. They're trying to make it super many and I feel like they're trying to go for the seventy eight comic book vibe. So okay, again, it's our last hurrah.
I'll go with it.
And then they did the clip show and it literally felt like an amusement park ride, and I was like, I can't do this.
That's a good point on the camp. Like I was thinking, as it's going, like there are aspects of the Superman mythology that, like, I feel like the show thinks are stupid. Here it is, you know, like they're really ignoring it. And like I liked that last scene, but some of that kind of felt like here's your stupid here, you know, great Seizar's ghost or whatever, and it's like, no, no, no, no, that's a great Caesar's ghost. You know, come on. Yeah, good point on the camp, Victoria.
That's a good nineteen eighty seven Universal Studios. Right, that's perfect because you're right, it just stops. Like I didn't. I like, I was, I know, we were just in here watching it right before we recording, and I was like, wait, no one says anything. I thought Jirell from I remember, I thought Durell was like narrating or something. But no, it's just duh, duh, generic hero music and inspiration and here's the last ten years and who's this line of
person we've seen? Is it in the episode? But but but I was like, you know what do they have him saving the dog? And then they had oh it's Crypto. All good, okay, so they have him saving Crypto, so everything was fine, but he saved the missile, like there are some great moments and I'm like, oh that's cool, that's cool, But why do they need to show us that? I mean order?
Also, they put it like all the events were out of order, like say things like with Lex's too like cause I get what they're trying to do, Like you know, with Clark, he's going like when his montage is like, oh, all the moments where he saved the day and all his trials leading up to him becoming Superman, And with Lex, it should have been like all the stuff going backwards instead of starting from the beginning and going up to
a certain point. And then all of a sudden it was like, oh remember all the Lexana stuff, like that's what happened with lex.
I was like, what they just throw it in there, because I think we were also said, well, you know, at least they're keeping your collage order and then boom, it's complete, completely chaos. It's like they were editing or not. Crap, we need more clips. Well just put him in at the end, you know. And with Lex's we see a
memory that he never experienced. Is the one with him the trench coat outside the fortress that never happened, that never he It looks like he got transported there at the end of commencement when he's just like in the snow and he's like, doesn't know what's going on. That is not a deleted scene from a quest or Sleeper. The trailer for it. You see Lexa to Parka walking up to the Fortress of Solitude. That is from the deleted scenes from Veritas, which have never released, by the way,
some of them. But that was gonna be the cliffhanger season seven if Veritos was the scene finale, Lex was gonna use find that box in Zurich from season seven, open it up, go to the fortress in his parka and go in, just like Gene Hackmand in Superman two. That was gonna be the cliffhanger of season seven. And now if Roseman didn't come back after that, I don't know what the hell they would have done, but that
was the idea. Rosen mom said he shot some stuff out there in the Arctic as well, so I think maybe for season five they shot Chloe Alex out there. That's the only thing I can think of, because he's wearing the clothes he was in commencement, but he's outside the I spent a lot of time thinking about this and researching, so like he's wearing the coat he was wearing the he was in convincement. And remember Chloe and Lex both get zapped, you know there, Maybe they thought
about zapping them both out there. Maybe they didn't know so why they were there. They're like, let's let's get Michael out there in the snow or something. So they had this clip, but I don't know why it ended up in the series finale with something that never happened. You have ten seven years of footage to choose from for him, and you choose something that never happened.
I hate that, and no Darth Lex either, what the hell?
But I did appreciate the close aspects of this episode.
I don't know.
I'm trying to be positive, and there were moments that got me very nostalgic.
Let's do this, let's do this, let's let's be positive. Yes, So, Victoria, what are like three things you love about the finale? Again?
I really do love the scene where they read each other's vows. I get god, I'm sorry. I think they're all gonna be close. I love the scene where they bump into each other on the stairs. I don't know, because I think also it's like there's this just feeling of this there was. They had these fleeting moments where there was this very acute feeling of nostalgia that I experienced. It was like, it's like my special happy, nostalgic Smallville feeling.
And I think that's what gets me so impassioned when we're talking about this, because I'm like, you guys, you guys had it like you were you had it and then you pushed it too far. But I really appreciated the moments where they captured it excellent.
What about you, Matt, What were three things you loved about this from Noale?
So two of them are clearly likes related, but just the fact that kind of there it's not their exact last moments, but their last moments together are just that, like, straight up, you're going to try to do this, and I'm going to always be there to stop you. Oh, I'm counting on it. Like the acting. There was just everything I wanted from him. And it's a weird thing, but like I remember being so excited when we heard that Rosenbaum was definitely coming back and like freaking out
the first picture. Yeah, the first picture they released was of him in the bald cap, sitting in the chair behind the desk in the office at Luther Court and just like seeing that scene again today really just like it was such a fulfilling thing and as a fan watching at the anticipation of this finale was so far beyond like nostalgia looking back, like what the actual finale was like.
They made a Lex Luthor specific trailer. I don't know if you remember it made.
Yeah, I do remember that. It was huge. It was so exciting.
They say every man is a dark side aside, he keeps hidden hidden from the light from friends, from loved ones, hiven from the side.
We have the destiny together.
Clark on the undifferent side. I'm not different, man.
I watched Lucid Lexi going to the nostalgia thing too, that Superman you know in me was was aided when when you heard Perry's voice, when you just like they were back. They those two characters were in The Daily Planet with Perry White, and that was just that's all, Like.
We've like pulled into the station, our journeys.
Complete, exactly, Yes, like everyone's where they should be, especially in this little in this building exactly. That's what.
What are your top three things you loved here?
Clark and Oliver's seen at the graveyard. I thought that was really good, you know, the two of them being bros, which for some reason was hard for them to like show on the show because every time they tried doing it, one of them was being like a dick to the other and was not like being very receptive. And so it even happened in this one also because Clark was kind of dismissive, but like I loved Oliver's attempt at trying to reach out to his friend and just you know,
just trying to be there for him. I like that. Of course, Clark and Lexis scene, it makes you know this finale worth watching. And then Clark and Lois at the beginning, when is just very confident that the two of them are going to get married that day, and it's convincing Lois that that's what needs to happen. And then Lois also having a valid argument for why she thinks that they shouldn't. She was hesitant about sharing a life with somebody that the world needed, and she thought
she was doing the right thing by doing so. But I love that little hiccup right there in their relationship. I like that for me.
I would say probably number three with the Oliver Clark scene in the graveyard. Number two would be the lex test scene, even though the memory ration is just a horrible decision and defeats the purpose of the entire show. And then finally would be the Clark and lex scene. So let's talk about this when we'll wrap up here. This is the best scene in the finale. This justifies
the finale being the way it is. This is just like the perfect way to cap off their relationship and just but it's distinctly Smallville as well, Like can't say I love what you've done with the place, right, That's that's the small little Lex Luthor right there. But you know, and he looks a little different because the bald cap because we nobody looks like Ball a little bit larger. But he's a clone, right, so that's fine, Like in the universe, I'm com totally fine with that.
Now.
Apparently he could not clone a perfect hand because he wears that club because of the messed uff hand. They just had to do it whatever, But you know, for all the you know Lex Luthor, I thought that was really smart about season ten. Like in the com books, he does he clones himself. He has duplicates and all this stuff. So I believe that he came back in this way. There's a president for it. I think they probably should have said Lex zero was the original Lex
and he like used clones to repair himself. I would have preferred that to like, this is a clone as well, because where memories come from. Smallvill doesn't understand how cloning works with like, hey, we clone all the Condorians, they remember their lives, No it doesn't work that way. You're blank slates, you know, clean slay the ultimate tool for the master thief. So hey, we got Lex and Clark and they had a final scene and I don't know what Smallvil would have done without it, it would have
been so incomplete. So for all that I know, we've been pretty venting our frustrations as fans here because this is a big deal to us. I've been watching the show for years and this was the end, and we didn't feel satisfied. But that was satisfying. And even Lex says in that scene, he's like, Hey, that's the thing about memory, you can't forget them. So maybe that implies
he'll get his memories back. I don't know, but they planted some seats there so that that was a great scene between the two of them, like I'm sorry, I couldn't save you ax any superspeeds away and then for that three minutes, this is the show that we all fell in love with back in the day between those guys. So so, ultimately, last question, did you find the finale satisfying? Yes? No, we're sort of Victoria. What's your answer.
I'm a strong, sort of strong, sort of.
Okay, what about you, Matt, I'll be a sort of yeah, that's what we wouldn't.
Know, Brave, that's that scene was great.
But overall, no, and see I'm not the negative one tonight, guys. Is I'm gonna say sort of stuff I loved.
I mean, it was a long journey, so pass with flying sort of that's.
New one Blue Ray DVD. This is where it's all been leading you become.
That's great to say.
More than two hours of special features the final season of Small Tale on Blue Ray and DVD November two, on the Complete series collection on DVD.
All Right, I hope you all enjoyed our conversation about finale. Again, it's interesting to talk about it, and I'm sure listen to us talk about it as in close proximity to the podcast proper covering. It covered a lot of the same ground, I know, but look, it's the same episode. We had a little variation there. I know, Victoria came in a little more positive about things intentionally so and I appreciated that. Uh because yeah, guys, you know how I feel about it. I haven't had my feel things
about the entire podcast. Not one of my favorite episodes, certainly, not one of my top ten episodes. But obviously it's important to a lot of y'all to make it in the top ten, number eight. Even so, even in the lower half of the top ten, the fact that is there shows that it worked for a lot of people, and it didn't work for me, but I am glad that it worked for so many other people. So I have nothing else to say about the serious finale. I've
talked about it so much, especially this year. So let's talk about the music then. You know, I thought about this, is there a real banger here? There? You know, there's a pop song and during the wedding, but what is the banger song here? That has been the through line? What is the banger needle drop of the episodes? And you know what it is, y'all, the theme to Superman
by John Williams. That's right. It doesn't counter as a traditional pop song with the fact that it's a piece of music that existed outside a small film and they brought it in and they played it. That works here, So a little bit of a stretch, but you know, it's a little bit of a stretch. The series finale's in the top ten. Okay, let's be honest. So Hey,
the trend continues. That's the series finale, that's our discussion about It almost feels like an alternate version of the same discussion we had earlier this year on the podcast Proper because again a lot of the same people talking about a lot of the same episodes. But I am excited to move past the pilot, to move past the finale, and to get more into some individual episodes moving forward
on our top ten list here. So stay tuned next next week to find out which episode is the number seven episode of Smallville as voted by you, the listeners,
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