Top 10 Episodes: #7 Transference

I'm John Glover.

I was Lionel Luther on a Smallville and I will always always hold on to Smallville and I hope you all do.

Two. Welcome to Always hold on to Smallville. In this podcast, we've talked about each in every episode of the Yolk Superman Show that ram from two thousand and one to twenty eleven on the WB and the CW. I'm your host, Sach Moore, and we're back with another Top ten episodes. That's right, the top ten episodes of Smallville as voted by you, the listeners, and this time the number seven entry, Transference. That's right. Traditionally Tom Wellings favorite episode of the show

Is it Run?

What is the best episode of season four? And in good conscience, I can't put more than one season four episode on my top ten list. Maybe that's silly. I need to break through that at some point, if you ask me at a different point in time, maybe these season four episodes will start breaking through, because truly, Transference and Run and Onyx are some of the best of the best the series, and they're in season four, so you know, in a good day, maybe all three of

The WB Wednesday.

Something hasn't you I remember you think of Scott Drenklin. You're right, You're absolutely right.

I'm not myself knows the truth.

It's name, it's Ark. This is Lionel Luther, Precious small Villa. On the WB Wednesday.

Transference. We're back to doing like a normal episode because the last two episodes we did the finale of the show and the pilot of the show, and it's kind of intimating to talk about in this format. We got several people, We're talking all kinds of things. The conversation goes to, oh, well, you know they cast so and so, and oh, I can't believe they wrapped it up this way. This is like Okay, this is just an episode of the show that's really good and we're going to discuss it,

No, it's a great episode. It's a highlight.

It didn't make my top ten, but it is definitely a highlight of the season, Victoria.

Was it on your top ten list?

Probably not.

I don't have my list on me, but I definitely feel like it should have been up there. And I was very intimidated by making this list process because I was very worried that I would leave stuff like this episode off.

This is one of my favorite.

Episodes, Matt Trux. Is it in your top ten list?

It?

I literally just got to it. It is not in my top ten list, No.

It's in mine, but it's good.

It's a good episode, don't get me wrong.

Yeah, to be fair to all y'all, I meant to pull up the top ten list and see, but I just I just didn't. So next time I will, and we'll we'll have all the answers. This is one of the back when I hated season four, I was like, there's like three good episodes and season four is transference running on X and screw the rest off them terrible, still not as good as the first three, but a solid season nonetheless, And this is really a highlight of well,

It's a positivity that the season inspired. It's nice to.

Say, did what do you guys think about transfer Lance? I'll start with you.

I remember it being a really good episode. It still is a good episode. It still holds up. You know, there's a couple of takeaways, but like for right now, just right off the bat, there's a lot happening in this episode. There's like a lot of stuff going on. I was impressed by that, like they you know, managed to take on a lot of things in an already kind of packed season, especially at that point in the season, the early third.

I guess, all right, Tory, what about you?

It's very interesting, I think because I remember I watched small Velle at such an impressionable age, so I was like, oh, this is great.

This is the peak of acting and it's amazing.

But I think the thing rewatching it is just how well it has held up, like even now as someone who's matured and knows a lot more about filmmaking and just how it's led to a deeper appreciation of just.

How well they nailed it.

Also, when I was watching it again, I had big appreciation for this is such a tropey trope the body switch, and it's it's a trope I honestly hate, but they did it so well and I have to give them so many hats off for really adjusting it well to

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Matt, what about you, man, what are your thoughts on transference?

The trope of it is so well done? What you just said, Victoria, Yeah, so I was thinking about a lot of different like bodies switch episodes, you know, And my personal favorite is a Buffy season four episode weirdly enough, but this one is a close second because there's plot in this episode. Obviously, we have to learn about stones and blah blah blah and how's it going to transference and all that, But the biggest, like the most memorable parts of it and where they put the meat of

I also think it was so interesting because I feel like maybe the first impulse was to have Clark and Lex and I'm really happy they I don't know, this is me just writing real person Smallville fanfic for the writers, but like I think it was, having Clark and Lionel was also just so compelling and interesting, and I'm really glad they chose those characters.

That's a great point. I feel like if they hadn't done this episode in season four, when they got to like season seven, they would have done a hey what if Clark and Lex which bodies episode? And of course he would have had an amnesia and they would have yeah who, and then a lot of situation there with those guys. So this was the really this was a really good time for the buddy swap, and y'all have mentioned all the characters he interacts with. Honestly, my favorite one.

No.

That was when he's talking to Jason Tigue and he's like, you're looking at me like you have no idea who I am. He's like, yeah, sure I do. You're a coach. And because he's wearing a coach or a jacket, that is the This is the funniest moment in the episode.

I think, well, yeah, well that one.

And then the second time he talks to Jason when he catches he and Lana, and with his last words is just like he's like, all right, then coach something like to that effect, and like he said, and just the way he says coach again, it's just like Liono probably at this point in the show probably doesn't even know this dude's name, which I know.

That's what I that's what I read into it.

I was like, that's hilarious, Like he knows he's his coach and he's just gonna say it a certain way, like a Lionel way, and it's hilarious.

Yep, they didn't meet at those Veritas meanings like ten years ago and hanging out at Doctor Swans how so I'm sure he's grown.

Up so much, really recognize him.

I thought you were going to say the mom hug, the Martha hug, which is just.

They're all so so edible, so fun.

Yeah, and the best.

Way though, you know, the Lionel having a crush on Martha thing is one of my favorite things in this show, Like he knows, and it's like it just cracks me up because it's been there since the beginning, and like, I love how it's just this nice little through line throughout the entire show that Lionel has a thing for Martha, and it just like it manifested in this episode the the craepiest way possible, for sure, I think.

I also love my favorite moment is the this one moment with because we were all thinking it and then it was like hallolu, soone finally said it. And then also I rewatching. I thought the Chloe scene was so interesting, like the Chloe one. I know, like we all like the theme of the show is like Loe has to be psychologically tortured, but that was such an interesting thing between like welling at the top of his game, acting wise and like al and bringing her.

Best per usu.

There was like the tension there was so interesting, and I was like trying to remember what it would have been like watching it without knowing what was happening, and like the scene starts and you don't really know how it's gonna end.

Yeah, yeah, because you don't really know what this is. Lionel Luther here in Clark's body, don't know what his intentions are gonna be with Chloe because she's the oneho but him in jail. But he knows that Chloe's in love with Clark, so he's gonna use that to like just twist that knife.

I also had like, sorry, a creeper moment when I was It really like hit me how creepy it was because I just like, you know, I'm just like, oh, it's like Clark's really letting himself go. But no, like realizing that was me when I was twelve, I'm like, yes, look at yourself in the mirror, shirtless more.

But when he says.

That moment with the cheerliers where he's like ladies, and I'm like, you're such a creepy old thing.

But he's a villain, So it's okay, we can laugh at it, right, guess.

Totally yeah, but you know what he's doing in the minute he gets to Mexico or wherever he's trying to flee to there, you know, Freddy Mercury.

Very good, very good. This is Tom Willing's finest performance. Does anyone think there's a better episode of his acting in this show?

I don't think this is.

This is like what what's another like Meaedy Clark, like important Clark scene for him, like in because I feel like most of that is him reacting to like I'm from Crypto.

He has great scenes throughout, but I think what Zach is talking about is just like minute one to the end, like of the.

Like the episode. I think this is.

He has great episodes, like you know, like can't Luthor like you know, like you can name different things, but as far as like the whole episode, I think this is probably it.

Those two you just mentioned. He's playing ultra man, so I'm like, yeah, he again, Tom Welling, he missed his calling. He should have been a villain in something.

But honestly, though, I think the villain is only healing. The villain is so much fun for us to watch and we think he missed his calling. He's done such a good job or we've seen so much of him playing the good guy, like I don't I don't know if the impact would have been the same if we were introduced to him as a villain, but maybe not. The guy looks like a Donnis and he a swag

To it the podcast prop that's what we're always gonna call it now, the podcast profit is they had I think.

They had Glover play all the scenes and then Welling would go in. He knew you What really sold it as I was watching it and analyzing, was he had the Welling could do the cadence, And I think that's what makes it so innate and then you're like, oh my god, wait, no, that's really line aloother.

John Glover brought this up, and he pointed out something I hadn't noticed before, but I guess Lionel has like a weird thing where like he will like slide his tongue or his lips a little yeah, just kind of like wet his lips a little bit. And he said he used to do that a lot on the show, and he noticed that Tom was just kind of picking that up, which is a whole other level of it too. But like, I agree with you, Victoria, like he's not doing an impression or like an impersonation, but he's just

Absolutely, yeah, And that's where that the Freddy Mercury comment comes from. Is yes, the inside of you with John Glover, microm So, hiler Grim and everyone go listen to that. But yeah, to that point, Glover mentions in that interview it was hard for him to play the young Clark

No, he captured six year old Clark Kent, but not necessarily.

Told me I was a very boy.

Yeah.

They run faster and really really fast.

I get that it is hard to just play innate good. He was just kind of boring. Although, although I will say, and I said this in the podcast proper, by the end of the episode, you're so used to like the Clark can you see being evil and the Lion of LUTHERI you're seeming in like this nice little older guy. It's kind of sad when they when they switch places again, you're like, oh, I kind of like adorable lionel as a really special boy.

Yeah, you're kind of sad when they switch back because you kind of fall in love with like, evil, manipulative Clark.

At least I did.

That would have been fun to see a little bit more of that, But I think it's also.

Smart because you always want to leave the audience wanting more.

Yeah, exactly, like they played this trope perfectly. This time around. And the thing about lineup Iss and Clark is, we know, we've seen John Glover as Lena Luth on the show for three years and we've seen we've seen how he acts, and to see Tom Willing as Clark channeling that, that's makes all the difference. If it's some villain of the week, who oh, no, some villain Joberber Clark's bounty, it's a generic bad guy, it's not. It doesn't have the weight

No, I think you've hit the nail on the head with that, because like I was thinking of different body swap episodes this week, and like so many of them are just villain in the week comes in with their body switching machine or whatever and takes the hero and that's like, you know, the hero has to convince the friends that he's a stranger or whatever. But yeah, I

True.

The one that made me think of after I watched it was in US This League Unlimited, the Great Brain Robbery, when Yeah, the Flash and Lex Luthor switched places, and it's just really funny because like they both kind of don't know what to do in like the other person's body, and so they just kind of act like themselves when everybody just thinks they're weird, and it's a different playing field than what we have here where it's just like the characters are like, you know, very much more nuanced

That other episode is just like, this is hilarious that Lex Luthor's in the Flash and doesn't know who the Flash is. It's hilarious.

Yeah, this is hilarious that the Flashes in Lex Lutheran has no idea what he's doing.

It's pretty funny.

Yeah, and weirdly maybe it goes to the performances or the stronger performance, but also maybe the story. But like in the Justice League one, we're following the hero in the villain's body a lot more than we're following Lex in the flash, right.

I think, because what really helps the tension or something that really landed for me when I was rewatching it this time is Clark Lionel or I don't know, I'm just gonna call him like sexy. Tom Willing has this line of dialogue where he goes, you know, with my mind and your body and your powers, like I'm unstoppable, and you're like, yeah.

We gotta get that stone captivated.

This is not going to end well, oh man, like yes, like the guy because like again, like Clark is very handsome, but he's like kind of awkward and he doesn't like channel that. But like Lionel, who is like so unencumbered and so unrestrained and so amoral.

Dann like and take it. Speaking of uh, you know that the body swaps that were saying, like it worked really well that Lionel was in jail and also dying, So it was like a ticking clock, right, and he was like in a place separated from all the other characters.

So oh okay, wait, that actually reminded me of a question that I have.

I would like to ask a question. So you know the scene when.

They get Clark Lionel sexy Tom willing to come back to the.

Prison, yes, and he's sitting with not Jim Rash.

And thank you, thank you, yep.

And I'm also Jim Rash went to my high school in my college, so I'm totally team Jim Rash, sorry, other guy. The way that scene goes that I was like listening and watching extra closely this time. Is that him Edgar not Jim Rash putting on an act.

To lure Clark back.

Was that a legitimate thing where he was like, I legit, don't know, No, that's totally a plan because he has a moment that he was like, wait, wait, how's how stuff coming along with your lawyers? That made that kind of like threw me for a second.

I think it was a Lionel and Clark's by the way, Clark and Lionel's body. And I always thought he was the not.

Sexy, un sexy John Glove.

I got confused.

I always thought he was the verising guy. That's what I can you hear me now, guy, that's the why. That's why I equated Edgar too. But they had concocted a plan where they would lun re Lionel back, and and Clark had said that he would help him out, I guess at some point. But see that gets all lost because at the end of the episode, he like goes and tells les, oh, we gotta help up a friend, but then uh, losing breaks him out.

Of Wile Ago.

But then my question because I also feel like Clark was unseexy, John Glover wasn't like looking for him, and the only way they found each other was through a legitimate prison riot.

But that was awesome. That was such a great sea. Why are you question it?

I'm not questioning it.

I'm just like I'm reflecting and like trying to make sure I'm fully understanding and appreciating everything.

Yeah, it was, yeah, yeah it was.

It was a random pery that I don't know what if there wasn't a prison riot, what the plan was going to be?

See that That's where I tripped up.

Right, But I think their main thought was just like tell him there's something wrong with the research, like make him panic, get him back here, and then we'll figure it.

Well, he told him that he had to kill Lionel his body. Yeah, so it was like, oh, well, Clark's gonna Clark's body. We'll do it this way. Clark's body has to find Lionel's body and kill it. But that I guess Clark figured that Lionel would use that I'm gonna choke you move, which is when a Clark's singers removed. So he could do the whole Oh come my underarm. I got a crystals.

When I saw that this time.

When I was watching this, I was like, Game of Thrones took this from Smallville, because that's totally the move. Arias Stark used on The Night King spoilers for anybody who has not seen.

It, anyone who still cares.

Yeah exactly, I know, all right, but that's that's the first thing that I thought of. But yeah, you're right, like the prison riot thing, it was. This was not like a you know, Aero season seven, you know, manufactured prison ride. It was just it just kind of happened this time.

Yeah.

It was a spontaneous prison right, which is personally how I prefer my prison rise.

Yeah, exactly, keep it loose.

To the episode's credit, they had set up that Lionel was getting in some big fight with some guy later on the episode, and so that'll be played into and that's and that's why this episode point on my top ten list, and it's on Hey you the listeners were I think this is the first one that we've had

Possibly, Yeah, but I do understand what you're saying though about the ending that is Yeah, yeah, I.

Agree, I do like that they I mean they you know, it's a drama, it's a soap opera. They had to make Clark have to kind of like apologize for stuff he didn't do, you know like that. That's a big part of these like under the Influence episodes, right.

And something I loved about this episode is that, like, because this episode is a literal epitome if you weren't yourself on the Telly Place.

Yeah.

My favorite is how like we finally and calls him out and she's like, ye, you have you have pulled this bullsh Excuse me, You've pulled this enough times, Like I am so over this. I'm not falling for this act again, Like no, And then I love it how she doesn't even come around. She's like, oh good, Lona, you yell at him now.

I think after Red, nobody should have talked to Clark. After Rush, nobody should have talked to Clark, and especially after this one. This is ridiculous.

So but I guess, you know, there are a small town. There's not a lot of people, so you're.

Going to run into them eventually, so.

You got to mend those relationships.

But one thing I liked about I noticed because we were talking in the group chat that you that we were joking that, you know, since Zach and Matt had already discussed this at length, that they were just gonna be talking about like lighting and the sets. But one thing I noticed in the costuming is that scene between

Blex's wardrobe like really narratively worked totally.

And isn't he when he's when he's getting dressed in the barn or in the yeah, the bar. Doesn't he have a purple button down too, which is very very loose.

It's kind of it's a Lilac Nobody's kakies And that's a big departure with the khakis. Yeah, that was an interesting choice for him. But yeah, I just yeah, and that scene when he shows up in the prison and kind of like shows himselves off. He's like, what do you think, like if that's Arrari, that's exactly what he would do, just to just to show it off. What did you think of Margot Kidder popping them at the end, taking that crystal?

It's heartbreaking because I want more. I just I was so excited when she came back because like the first episode of Smallville I ever truly watched, like Live to Air properly on the seat on the the CW. Still the WB was Crusade, so like I like got to meet Lois and like meet older Lois and it was like, this is weird, like Lois connection to like how I was introduced to Smallville. So I remember being so excited when she came back. It was like I know her,

I would happily release that as a Patreon exclusive for.

Don't make offers You're not willing to make good on more because.

It's been fortunate about season four because they had major problems, right they had Christopher Reeve was supposed to play the big part and he died, and then Margot Kidder was gonna replace him, and then she felt uncomfortable about doing it, and I totally get it. Yeah, that was her friend for decades and it felt awkward. I'm not gonna I mean it would she would have come back, but I

I loved when Sexy Tom.

Is yeah, I just got to go with it.

We just got to go with it.

When he talks to the Kents the first time, like it's like, I love how nonchalant the Kents are about Clark's abilities and it's just so funny, like how at this point in the show, like it doesn't phase them to ask Clark to lift up the tractor or put out a fire with his hands, Like they're just like

It is so good.

I'm glad that they didn't try this again. We would have deluded this one. But this one stands apart because it's so unique of all the like if they didn't even if they did something like, I mean, they had an episode Wherelana got Clark's powers, but they didn't like switch bodies or you know, I mean, the closest thing they ever did to this was in Hex. Chloe kind of wishes she was Lois. There's again some kind of meta commentary and Eric and heran she goes up to

It was a transformation.

There. He goes, very good, Victoria, very good. They could have easily done some like Chloe and Laana switch bodies, and Chloe feels those what it feels like to have Clark like or and Wana finally understands a tough life club like they could have gone. They could have gone down this road and they didn't. And I'm very I'm very happy. But yeah, I mean, this is uh, this is a great episode of some great stuff in here, especially at the end when when Clark and Lex apologize.

All right, two L's man.

But when when.

Clark comes to see Lex at the end, he Lex pulls a gun on me, and he'sa like, what does your dad tell me?

What?

I hate you with the car? What do we always joke out after the question, just demanding to know this in joke. It's just so funny.

It's almost as good as Whitney's. You know what is my favor radio station.

It's the emotional outbursts on the show, or or just they come out of nowhere, or always funny.

I'm sorry, Probably nobody else cares about this is Zach. Does that four barreled gun ever show up again?

You know, I'm gonna keep an eye for because it's really cool, Like I don't know a gun, which I'm from Texas and I don't own a gun, so I know, shocking. You're not a favorite Texas But okay, if I ever did, I would like that.

Yeah, please, I don't recall X.

He always has some like generic like giant silver gun. Right, I don't even know what they're called. Right, So I'm gonna keep an eye on for that four bell gun. But but it's but but why would you have a four barrel gun? This is fire all four at the same time, at least.

The only time I've ever seen it before, I think is the second tomb Raider movie, which is not worth it. But like, I don't think he had like underwater spear guns with him, so I'm not sure.

W B released the tomb Raider movies. No, I think it was Paramount. No, No, I think it was Paramount.

I think Paramount.

I was gonna say, if it's some random props sitting around, he just decided to use a terminator three footage two Rader props, you know, So you're right, Victoria, I think because we're so used to him playing it one way, to see him playing a different way, He's why I like it so much. And well, and you know, he's a better actor than people give him credit for, or at least a better imitator than people give him credit for.

I agree that I loved Matt's point. It wasn't an impression.

He was legitimately, like I love how you said it, wearing the skin he was he was.

He has far more talent than he gets than he gets credit for. I think he gets a bad rap with with some of his actings sometimes, and this kind of proves his shops.

Is he good on Lucifer? This is the only thing I've ever seen him.

I was a little disappointed.

I think Lucifer doesn't give him an opportunity to shine.

That's I've only watched a couple episodes.

How about silver lining right there?

Thank you well, Victoria. Was it from the first half of that season on.

The second That's all I got true.

I actually I skipped around after the first half, to be honest. But he's playing a boring character the first half loosier because there's a twist about his identity and religious.

Is he a monster or something.

I'm gonna spoil it for you, everyone, go ahead. He's Kane who Caine killed Abel in the Bible?

Okay, I think he just kind my interest in Lucifer.

So he's immortal. Like there's a great scene. There's a great scene in the in the mid season finale of that season of season three Lucifer where Lucifer kills him and he's expecting him. He he thinks he's Kane and he kills him. He stabs in the heart and he just lays there for a while. They stay on it just long enough you think, oh, maybe he's wrong, maybe he just killed Tom Wellings, maybe maybe he's just a cop.

Can I just say that I went and saw The Fog in theaters and it was such a big deal for me because I was like a teeny bopper and I was afraid of horror movies.

But I watched it for Tom and I. It was on.

Netflix like a year ago, and I was like, oh my god, let's do a TBT.

Let's turn on the Fog.

I couldn't get it is horrendous. Like I was like, okay, let's just fast forward to the shower scene and then like turn it off.

See as much as Victoria loves Tom Willing, it has been well established here. She can't get through Lucifer. She can't get through the Fox. She's artistic standards. I respect Everytory, thank you so much. But yes, we saw in the theater as well, and as as as we the story. We told him many times. We have some group of friends and another one of our friends got a phone call and they asked what we were doing. And our friends says, oh, I'm seeing the fog. And the other

I didn't know that.

Yeah, John Carpenter's the fog.

When the fog rolls.

In, what's from it?

Keeps seeing horrible things happening.

Something from the.

Past will return, somebody I in the tone of Antonio Bay.

Get off the island.

Why just go?

We'll pay for it, sin.

Sir, Where did that come from? Anybody there?

The fog? Grady, PG.

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All Right, I hope I'll all enjoyed our discussion on Transference. This might have been outside of the pilot. This might have been the most positive and in line with each other. We all were about Transference. Even though it wasn't on everyone's top ten list, it was on mind. We all recognized it was a great episode and it deserved to be here in the top ten. Now. I have been critical over the years, both here and on the podcast Proper, about John Glover's performance as Clark, and you know what