Superman Special #22 - The Flash (2023)

Hey guys, this is Laura Van Award. I played Kara Kent slash Supergirl on Smallville, and you are listening to Always hold on to Smallville. Welcome to Always hold on to Smallville. In this podcast, we talk about each and every episode of the Young Superman Show The Rep in two thousand and one to two thousand and eleven on the w B and the c W unless we don't. It's another Superman Special twenty two and I'm joined by from Digging for

Kryptonite. Mister Anthony Desiata was up empty. Thank you for having me back. I figured by now your audience has hopefully finished up our very lengthy, enjoyable discussion of the doomsday episode of Smallville. I hope. I know they've they've gone through a few commutes and have gotten through it. And yeah, that was a real fun one to do. And uh, you know, spoilers for Superman and Lowas season three. It's interesting that we did that before

the season finale. I know, if only we knew, as we were talking off Mike, if we had known, there's no doubt we would have passed the three hour mark. So I think for everyone's sake it was good we didn't know we captin under three hours, but it was. Again, I thank you for having me on for that, as I said in that episode, and I've continued to think about it since it was very cathartic and I lay I put a lot to rest about my frustrations with that episode.

And then Superman and Lowis came along and redeemed a lot as well. So yeah, I'm in a much better place when it comes to the end season eight of Smallville now than I was a couple of months ago. And just you know, if you're not watching the band lois I thing, we're vague enough, you can go figure it out. Connect the dots. If you spend any time online over the past a couple of weeks, you know exactly

what we're talking about. But also, if you spend any time online in the last couple of weeks, you might be just kind of over the flash. You might be sick of the flash. You might be hungry for more conversation about the flash. The flash as as week predicted good or bad, win or lose. It is this this full come point of DC on film. We've been moving towards this for years. I want to talk about that

in a minute. But it's a Superman special because there, you know, there's four Superman in the Flash. You got CGI Henry Cavill, you got CGI Nicolas Cage, he got CGI George Reeves from another exciting episode of the INVENTI of Superman. So great for you to be here to talk about that anything, sure, and then of course you have cgikers to Reef accompanied by

CGI Helens later. So yeah, that's just it's really just an excuse for Anthony United to get on a microphone here and talk about the Flash, talk about the aftermath of the Flash Shoe. Because we both did our own episodes. You know, I did always onto the Flash for my Patreon, and as we always do when a new DC movie comes out, me and Lance Laster kind of have our night ove reaction. You did actually, wasn't even

was it digging for Justice for you or was it a main episode? Actually, now that I think about it, I did it on the main Digging for Kryptonite feed for the reasons you just said, because of the Superman presence, and it's just such a moment within the larger DC filmography, it felt worthy of putting it out there for everyone. And I have to say, you know, our audience is nowhere in the in the realm of yours, but we do all right. But that episode in particular popped off a lot

more than than other ones. And I'm happy. I'm always happy for folks to come on board and listen to Digging for Kryptonite. But it's like, I'm kicking myself because I put so much thought into what we call her, and I designed all these multipart events and pairing works and how we're going to talk about it. And the thing that I think it's the most traction is a discussion of this movie where I came in a little fired up. But

yeah, but it's all right. I'm glad for people to listen, and I very much enjoyed your Patreon discussion and I loved I love that you guys did it right after you saw it, because there was definitely I think a lot of the content, a lot of the reactions and opinions would would be the same and have probably remained the same, but just the feeling of it, there was something I don't know, raw maybe isn't the best word, but it was just it was it was so in the moment, so it

was cool I enjoyed it. I feel like it's aged pretty well. I feel like when we were when we were talking about it, people were I mean, I posted the my initial feelings that that's a talking about you know, doing numbers, you know, not that I'm sitting here and counting the likes and comments. I get. But but that one of my most quote unquote successful tweets of all time was me just tweeting like, hey, I don't know what people are talking about. I saw this and I didn't like

it. And the people who came after me and the things they said it was incredible. I feel like the dust is settled. I mean, other blockbusters are coming out now and the flash is just in the rearview mirror, which is is only. I mean, we're recording this less than a month after. It's crazy. It came out, by the way, when you said you think it aged well, and I started to laugh. It was because I thought you were referring to the movie itself and that I was a

fraking of my podcast. Yeah that no, I'm on board. So I just wanted to clarify, why's he laughing at my episode not laughing at your episode? I thought you were talking about the movie again. Less than a month after comes out, we're heard talking about it. The dust is settled, it's almost it's it's sad that you can do and that speaks a lot for the movie itself on honestly, that we can kind of do a you know, a post mortem on it when it's less than a month out of

out of the gate. Huh. Yeah, it's insane. It's insane. I took my father to see it on Father's Day or the day before, so not all that long ago. And I don't know exactly when this will be dropping, but by the time people hear this, they might be able to buy or rent it digitally. So it's it's really pretty insane. Yeah. So, and I think a lot of the a lot of me and and you as well, because we talked about it before after enduring it was

all happening. It was all happening, like the flash is coming as a referring to a lot of the the energy and perhaps the response has come from for months being told that this was the greatest common movie of all time. Ezra Miller had their issues. But don't worry, folks, Why once you see this, you're not going to worry about that. I mean, these are the things that that that we have been told for months, um and then and then for it to be such a disconant because you can you know,

look, movies can movies are subjective, artist subjective. I'm not here telling you that if you liked it, then you're wrong. But when you see a movie like this and people to tell you that it's it's the greatest movie they've ever seen, and it's up there with the Dart, it's The Dark Night, or it's Superman in the movie, or it's Iron Man, or it's Logan or whatever. I'm listening off these you know, well regarded

universally praised superhero movies. I can't even see that. I can't even see the argument for that, and I welcome hear other people's opinions about it, so please. You know, people have been happy to share them and I've read them. Um but but but the buzz was just so overwhelmingly positive about this, and not just from you know, you expect them that. Of course, you have marketing from the studios, right, they have all these

fans screenings, and you have these people just losing their minds. You have these you see these these reviews where you know, people are just like, oh, it's it's it's it's amazing, it's a celebration of all things DC.

And I just and that's where that tweet got me in trouble, because it's like, I honestly don't think I saw the same movie as a lot of these people, and it just I just left so confused to disconnect between what was promised, what was hyped, and what was was received by me at least was so huge, and I think that's why I've wanted to talk

about it and try to unpack it. That's the thing, because you can talk about the movie itself, and we have and we will, but there is this whole other piece where, of course any studio, any filmmaker, they're there to sell a movie to you, so of course there's always going to be that pr spin. But when it rises to the level of what feels like such manufactured hyperbolic bs, that's when I feel it for me,

it gets frustrating, and that's what it felt like was happening here. Now I'll give the same disclaimer here that I gave on my own show, and to echo what you just said for anyone, like for anyone listening to this who loved the movie, awesome. That's the one thing I do want to be clear. I did not like this movie. I have some fundamental objections to it. I also have a lot of frustration with the way it was kind of shoved in our faces. But for anyone who loved it, that's

great. Like, I don't want to take away from that, And I can, even though I didn't land here, I can see how certain things might break differently for certain audience members, and you might get more mileage out of this movie than I did or than you did. So for anyone who loves this thing, that's great. I wish I did. Anytime I'm critical about something, it's always in the context of my man, I wish you know kind of your point, Like I wish I saw what you saw,

but I didn't. But yeah, I mean, I feel like in this case, it felt more manufactured. And I know we both talked about this and actually weirdly discovered that we were at the same advanced screening of Batman Year one at San Diego Comic Con twenty eleven. Yes, but I'm glad that we had that shared experience. We didn't know each other we were in the

same space, had no idea but a funny connection point. But we've both been in that position where you get to see something early, surrounded by fans, you know, people involved with the project or there, and I think it it. I mean from personal experience. I know I came out of that screening and other advanced convention screening is like really high on whatever it was I just saw, and then you go back to it later and it's like, Okay, you know it was good. Maybe it wasn't as good as

I felt it was in the moment. Now again, another disclaimer for anyone. I'm not saying anyone who saw it early, but you saw it early saw it a few days early. So I'm not saying just because someone saw

it early, that's why they got swept up in the marketing hype. I believe there are people who just genuinely love this movie, and that's great, but I can't help but think that for at least some contingent of the audience who saw it early at these fan events, it just I feel like it kind of just primes you to buy into this narrative that they're selling you, which is that this is the greatest DC film or the greatest movie, greatest

superhero movie of all time. These quotes will hamp them forever anything I do. I truly believe that, because when you say, when you put your name to something like that, you lose credibility. One doesn't love up to the hype. And that's that's my point. That's my point. Like there's a whole spectrum of like opinions, and you can you can, you can discuss these things, and it's fun, Like why do we podcast like this so we can talk, we can dissect and analyze and celebrate or sometimes just

examine these things that we because we love this John. We love these characters, right, this is our mythology, these these DC comics characters that we're heavily invested. So we're gonna have strong reaction. I mean, maybe it's good to have a strong reaction than no reaction. I mean, that's that's

that's its own conversation. I guess I'll say this doing the episode of my show on this movie, that it was kind of an outlier because most of the things that we're talking about on that show, they're more settled, and so yeah, you know, I guess my opinion has I don't want to

say solidified, because I do try to keep an open mind. But there are things that I've I've taken in and I've really thought about for a long period of time, and you know, you kind of can take that longer view of where it fits into the larger picture, and you can see things differently, and uh, And I feel like most of the things that we talk about. It's not that I gush over everything, far from it, but there's always the things I like and things I don't like it, and

we could talk about both. And if there's something that I've really hate, I probably just wouldn't cover it because I don't take any joy in coming on and taking down something, which is essentially what I do with the Flash movie. It was an interesting exercise and in the moment, it was what I

needed to express. I had an audience member who's been with me for a really long time and thankfully it's still with me, but tweeted at me, like he said, I found in your episode frustrating because normally we see eye to eye on a lot of stuff, and I felt completely differently about the Flash and I was like, well, thank you for still listening. I appreciate it. We can agree to disagree, and like I always say,

it's a journey and it's a process. And at that point in my journey, in those few days after I saw the movie, that was what I needed to express. And so again, an interesting exercise, not an energy it would want to tap into all the time. I don't know that that would be helpful for anyone to just to hate. I mean, the you know, there are people that make their stock and trade that sort of thing,

and I certainly don't want to be that. But no, you're absolutely right, and I try to. I try to be very open minded and very you know, accepting of all points of view. Around here, we've had fun debates about like this, these interpretations of these characters here there. I mean, we terror Powart small Ville on around regular basis, and that's my favorite show, right, But sometimes you know, well, I'll put

it this way. I love how your Piers is called a Superman fan journey, because then you can this is my journey, right, and people can't argue with you about your opinions and your experiences, right, And sometimes I guess, you know, the line gets blurred somewhere like well you you said this, and it's like the objective truth about this subject. Like, look, I am not the final word on Smallville or Superman or anything. I'm

just a guy trying to do the right thing. I'm not an angel or a devil figure for ill though, like I've just you know, these are my opinions and thoughts, and I think you know this. I don't know, I don't, I can never. Really, it's this intangible thing why people listen to certain podcasts and people's conversations, and why you gravitate towards certain people talking about certain things, right, because there's you can listen to a

one hundred people talk about the Flash or Superman or anything. Right. But you know, I like to think that you form a bond with your audience and they they appreciate your opinion and they're excited to hear your takes and they sometimes can anticipate what you're going to think and sometimes not. And it's even kind of more interesting because you know, like like you said, they're with

your listener. You know, I've had podcasts or YouTubers that that I follow and and uh, sometimes they have one hundred and eighty degree difference than my thought. I'm like, wow, but I find that interesting. That's even sometimes that's even more interesting. Yeah, no, I mean exactly, that's the thing. And it's funny because and maybe I'm sure you get this too.

Where I've had people over these past few years now that i've been doing the show say some version of you know, I really I enjoy it, even though I don't always agree with with with you guys, And I always write back like that's fine. I don't. I don't need or want or expect everyone to agree with me. It's it's more interesting if we don't. Of course, the position I always take, and that I hope the audience

is coming from. And for the most part, again, I think we have a great audience, and I think people, you know, fall into this category. Where as long as it's not hey, you're you're an idiot for thinking that, right, that's what I want to avoid. But as long as we can all be like hey, I like that, you know, we get different you know, we did be taking things differently and we get different mileage out of it. So uh yeah, I mean, like

that's that's totally fine. But yeah, it was just it was very interesting, very interesting, just to kind of to kind of see that, but I will say I got far more people who who tended to agree, both publicly I noticed, but also privately. Yeah. Yeah, a lot more private messages about that. One of like I really enjoyed your Flash episode. I was like, all right, yeah, So anyway, just the pregame there to kind of navigate these waters, right, I don't want anybody to

feel offended or attacked or whatever. Like these are just our reactions and opinions to this tentpole movie, uh of the the current soon to be over DC Universe on film. So how did we get here? Anthony um? I um have opened the Wikipedia article for The Flash twenty twenty three, and I thought, you know, I opened this just to kind of maybe refresh my memory on a couple of things, because I want to just kind of mention it. And then I realized, Wow, this is such a dense story.

And I'm not I'm not talking about like the flage was invented a night too, but I'm talking about that. I'm talking about like this particular film, how we got to where we are to where we're going, And you know, I'm just I'm just gonna read it. Hopefully you guys don't think this it's boring, hopefully find informative. I don't know, but I feel like this could provide some interesting context to what So maybe what could have been, what should have been, what might have been, and what we got

through this particular film. So here we go. This is through through no research of my own. This is not an article I wrote. I'm just reading the Wikipedia article, which is publicly available to anyone. It's like Michael Scott says, Wikipedia is the greatest thing in the world. Anyone can write anything about any subject, so you know you're getting the best possible information. I also have it open on my phone, so I'll follow along here too.

Exactly. So DC Extended Universe. That's the particular chapter of this Wikipedia article that I'll be reading here. Warner Brothers was planning a new shared universe of films based on DC by July twenty thirteen, and had tentative plans to release a flash film in two sixteen. In October twenty fourteen, Warner Brothers and DC Films announced the slate of planed projects as part of the new DC

Extended Universe. The Flash was set for release on March twenty third, twenty eighteen, with Ezra Miller set to star in the film as Bury Out in The Flash. Miller first made cameo appearances in Batman, b Superman, Doown of Justice, and Suicide Squad, starred in the team up film Justice League, and briefly appeared in the arrow Verse crossover Crisis on Infraverse, which acknowledged a wider DC multiverse, and in the first season of the series Peacemaker.

Wanner Brothers offered James One the choice of directing movie about either Aquaman or The Flash, and he ultimately chose to make Aquaman. By April twenty fifteen, Phil Lord and Christopher Miller were writing a storage treatment for The Flash with the possibility of directing it after they decided to direct solo a Star Wars story instead. Seth Graham Smith inter negotiations to write and direct the film based on the

Lord and Christopher Miller treatment. In October twenty fifteen, Grant Smiths was set to make his direct toil debut with the film, with Rovan producing and Deborah and Zack snyders Zaken producing Charles Rovan Warner Brothers executive. In February twenty sixteen, the film's release date was moved forward to March sixteen, twenty eighteen. Graham Smith left the project that April, citing creative differences in one of their brothers, and one of the brothers shows to retain his script, and he

was still expected to be involved in the project moving forward. While Lord and Miller were also Christopher Miller were also set and I see why they're differentiating Lord Lord and Christopher Miller, a supposed to er Christopher Miller were also involved as producers A search for replacement director bugan immediately that is the first program. Let's take a pause, yes, because I don't want to just read non stop here. There's some interesting points to bring up here. James One given the

choice to an Acaman, and Flashy picked Acaman. Now I love Acaman. What you enjoy the Acaman film? Enough ran, Yes, I don't know how I go so far as to say love, but I enjoyed it. I think it's a solid movie. I understand why it did well. So yeah, I'm a fan. I'm a fan. So I wonder again the multiverse of madness here of like you know, Lord and Miller right from the Lego movie, they go do solo a Star Wars story which they get fired from. So then Ron Howard picks up that movie, the first Star Wars

movie to not make money in the box office. That's its own Lucas film. It's its own conversation going over there. So meanwhile, Lord of Miller, who get fired off that they go make into the Spider Verse and win Best Picture for an Animated Film the next year. Incredible, right, So all these people like would have could have should have almost involved with the Flash. I don't really I want to get into this actually, uh, because

I'm a big Patrick Wilson fan and and things like that. But the Conjuring universe, and I always been interested in it, aware of it because it's part of the pop culster, right, but I've never like sat down and watched those movies. But I think James one of the two. I think he is more you know, probably the Aquaman's probably better fit for him. Maybe I would agree. I'm not a horror guy like at all, but

it's so funny. It's just it's never appealed to me. And my wife is more into it, and we've had these conversations and I'm just like, I don't. It's just never a sensation that I've ever sought out like I

want to be frightened, so it's never never really been my thing. But yeah, I and especially seeing when he did in Aquaman, particularly with the with the trench, and I know there was plans to do to do more, but I could see why that would that would speak to him obviously Musketti also coming from the horror world, and then you look at something like The Doctor Strange and the Multiverse of Madness, which full disclosure, I still have

not seen a few MCU movies behind. But you know, there you have Sam Raimi and I know he you know, obviously also comes from horror and leaned into some of that as well. So you could have seen a version of a flash multiverse movie that that maybe did kind of dip its toes into those waters a little bit. But yeah, all to say, I think Wand made the right choice. Interesting connection there. I didn't think about that

with Sam Raimi and multiverseness there he brought. He definitely brought that Sam Raimi flair to it. Uh. You know, a common criticism the Marvel films as they all look, you know the same at this point, but there's definitely a lot of same Raimi a lot of characters, and I enjoyed Multiverse of Madness. I don't know it's here. Apparently it's popular not to like it. Now I don't know, you know, who knows about what we're

talking about, people's opinions and stuff. But I left that I was like, oh cool, that was enjoyable, you know, great, and and you know, on too the next chapter of the MCU. But anyway, let's continue with the Wikipedia article and forgive me. I don't think I've ever heard someone say this guy's name out WOWD. But Rick famau Will I don't know. I was waiting for that to come up, and I think, I wonder if that's going to do with it now, I don't know.

He was hired to take over as director in June twenty sixteen. Now he has gone on to direct episodes of like The Mandalorian and things like that, so he's again this. I guess all these big budget you know, not even just Disney, because that's that's the other Warner Brother Disney. With all these big budget sci fi fantasy convicts, you know, everybody's in the same seems to be in the same pool, so to speak. That they're all

people have connections, friends, whatnot. But it's interesting to see draw these sessions because Lord of Millard, Solo, etcetera. Anyway, so, uh, Wanner Brothers feeling that Rick's vision for the film would resonate with younger audiences and also be compatible with Graham Smith's existing script. Finling was expected to begin later in twenty sixteen, and was not believed to be delayed by the director

change Rick. I'm gonna call him Rick because I honestly don't know if I'm ance his last thing, right, So I'm gonna keep going with Rick. Rick Stop choice to portray the film's female lead, Irish West was Chrissy Clemens, whom he had worked on with Dope film that he had directed. Rita Ara and Lucy Beyonton were also in the running for the role, but Clemens

was cast as the character by the end of July. At that time, Warner Brothers gave the film's release date to Tune Raider twenty eighteen, leaving the Flash without a release date. And I never saw that tum ra to remake, but yeah, look looked interesting. You know, if I see it on streaming sometime and I got nothing to do, I'll definitely check it out.

In August, Ray Fisher was set to appear in the film, reprising his role as Victor Stone Cyborg from Batman v. Superman Donna Justice Rick completed a revision of the script a month later, when Galaghat thought was set to a price her role as Diana Prince Wonder Woman from Batman v. Superman Wonder Woman and Justice League, and Billy crut Up was in negotiations to portray Barry's father, Henry Allen Clemens and Crudup both film cameo appearances for Justice League after

being cast in the Flash. Pre Production began by October ahead of a filming to start in March twenty seventeen, scheduled before another commitment that Ezra had in July. At the end of October, Rick left the project after not being able to quote come together creatively unquote with the studio, which disagreed with the more mature direction that he wanted to take the film. Let's take a pause

there. Two paragraphs did. By the way, so interestingly, again, some of the stuff I knew, I just I obviously had been following this for years, you know, so I'm familiar with bits and pieces, But I wanted to see it all kind of like now the dust subtle has seen seen the A to B of a all. So they hired him for a more like family friendly angle, and then he wanted to be more mature,

and that's the way they came into conflict. So I feel like those are conversations they made, should have had before they hired him, right, probably, But it's so funny to me because again, I mean, some of those backs were I don't I don't know either, and you know the fact that he ultimately wanted to go with this more mature tone. I'm sure we'll get into this more later, but I mean, one of the big things that I strongly disliked about the movie we got was it's more immature tone.

So it's this is you know, fascinating again just to kind of consider what what we could have gotten. Also, at the time, I didn't realize that he had cast according to this, he had cast Billy Croup. Yes, Clemens, right, Yeah, that's I guess that's a surprise too. I would have yeah, I would have expected that was a Snyder thing for

Justice League, but yeah, interesting. Yeah, then there is the picture of there's a picture of him Rick Rick James One, Patty Jenkins, Ben Affleck and Zack Snyder all together at Comic Con, and then you know, people love the there was a time before, right, that's people love putting. I've see that picture circulating a lot. I'm like, yep, those were the days. I guess twenty I guess that was Comic Con twenty sixteen. Well it must have been if Snyder was there and that was it.

He was not around in comic CONTENTI seventeen at that point, So wow, anyway, interesting, let's continue. The film was put on hold while the studio searched for a new director and Ezra Miller prepared to film Fantastic Beasts The Crimes Grindawald. During that time, Water Brothers decided to take the film in a new direction, and a January twenty seventeen, Joby Harold was hired to

do a page one rewrite of the script. He handed in a draft by May, when the studio's top choices to director Robertson Meckis and Matthew Vaughan. Both had expressed interest in the project but had potential scheduling issues that could prevent them from taking it on. Sam Ramy, Mark Webb and Jordan Peel had

already turned down offers to direct the film, as did Ben Affleck. At the July twenty seventeen Saniego Comic Con, the film was announced with a new title, Flashpoint, based on the Convict title of the same name, in which Barry Allen travels back in time to save his mother's life and accidentally creates

an altered timeline. Dana Zoo contribute to the script during this time. Jeff John's confirmed in November that the Flashpoint concept would allow the film to tell a unique story about Batman, with the combook storyline exploring a time line where Thomas Wayne is Batman. Jeffrey Dean Morgan expressed interest enterprising his role as Thomas Wayne from bat and b Superman. Okay, Joe By Harold ended up writing a

lot of the Obi Wan Kenobi Show. By the way, so again, this nexus of nexus of people who are all connected, fascinating that Robert Semeckis and Matthew Vaughn both turn it down. Matthew Vaughan man like X Men, first class of my favorite superhero movies, and he has such a distinct style, and obviously he went on to his success with The Kingsman all that, I would love for him to direct another combot film, an established property, more of a lord DC, and then Robert Semeckis for much of a heart

on this film advert back to the Future. That's interesting. Yeah, they wanted him. That's pretty wild. That is pretty wild. Yeah, Matthew Vaughan. I mean I still haven't seen the Kingsman movies, but yeah, first Class, still all these years later, really stands out. And I'm not I'm not the biggest Marvel guy or X Men guy, but I saw all the movies and U and that was definitely a highlight of that franchise, no doubt. Yeah, I mean, on a good day, that might

be the best one of them all. Obviously Logan is its own kind of conversation, but that is a top five. That's not a top three to me anyway. X Men movie, and I'm not mister x Men combooks guy. I know the most of the movies, but anyway, strong choice there. Up. Jordan Peele. I love Jordan feel but I like how he kind of stays in his own le kind of like a Chris Nolan. Okay, I mean Nolan did his and then he needed Batman. So maybe Jordan

Peel could breaking break into one of these big franchises like that. But I mean I loved him on Key and Peel, all of all those movies, Like I kind of like how he does his own thing. I don't I don't know, I don't see that. I mean I say that, but I mean I would. I'll be first in line. See Jordan Peele DC

comic movie, So let's continue. In January twenty eighteen, the filmmaking duo John Francis Daily and Jonathan Goldstein inter negotiations to write and direct the film, after the studio chose not to wait for Robert se Megis schedule to be free interesting. Daily and Goldstein were confirmed as directors in March, and the film's

title reverted to The Flash the next month. Filming was expected to begin in Atlanta in February twenty nineteen, but Ezra Miller's commitments to Fantastic Beats The Secrets of Dumbledore the late filming again. The Flash was aimed for a twenty twenty one release. To that point. In mid March twenty nineteen, as Rameller was revealed to be writing a new version of the script with combook writer Grant

Morrison. I remember this. They disagreed with the lighthearted approach the film that Daily and Goldstein were taking, though that was Warner Brothers preferred direction for it. The news script could be submitted to the studio by the end of the month, and if the studio did not like Miller and Morrison's take, there was potential for the actor to leave the film. Miller's holding deal to start

in the film was suspected to end in May. Pause there. I should have mentioned this in the last paragraph, Flashpoint, the flash They're going back and forth on the title before this came out. I was interchangeably saying it because they were interchangeably saying it, right, You remember this, I do.

Yeah. I mean it's funny because I've never been the biggest fan of the Flashpoint story, but I get it's appeal and there is something that I do think would lend itself well too to being told on the big screen. And obviously what we ended up getting was a very very loosely adapted version of that, where I think the aspects of the story that really stand out the most and that maybe might have grabbed audiences a little bit more, you know,

especially the Thomas Wayne Batman element. Although I know they got a lot of a lot of mileage out of having Michael Keaton back, but yeah, well maybe well I feel like whatever trash they get, you know. Now, Okay, so this is the last paragraph, and then I think I'm from here because I'm the heir all night reading Wikipedia article. But that's at least gets us to the version of the film. We finally have this, this next, this, this last paragrapher of this section. Morrison Grant.

Morrison later said that Miller had not been happy with the prior scripts and approached Morrison with their idea is and the pair were given two weeks by one of the rose to write the script in Scotland. Morrison described their script as quote a flash story unquote, which they felt was a more science fiction story similar to Back to the Future, but said that the studio wanted to explore the multiverse and other DC characters with the film instead a lot of studio a lot

of studio opinions. I'm seeing here by the way. Morrison also denied reports the Miller wanted the film to have a dark tone, and said their script had dark aspects related to the flashpoints story The studio rejected Miller and Morrison's script in May, but as Milanch to remain as star of the film, The

Alien. Goldstein left the project in July and Warner Brothers shows Christina Hodson to write a new screenplay for the film after writing its DC film Birds of Prey, Andie Machette entered the negotiations to direct the film, with his sister Barbara Sad to produce alongside Michael Disco. At January twenty twenty, pre production star was expected. The evolvement of Annie, Machetti and Hodson was firm in November

twenty nineteen, and filming was expected to begin in twenty twenty one. After Ezra Miller filmed Secrets of Dumbledore a month later, Wanner Brothers scheduled The Flash to release July first, twenty twenty two, and the rest was history. Now I could go on for another thirty minutes about all the things that happened between now and that got us. My point was that got us to where we are now. Like this version of the film, these actors, directors,

producers, presumably scripts. Obviously a lot changed between now and then. Sarborg was supposed to be in there, Thomas Alaim is supposed to be in there. Any machete hot from it it part one, maybe not so much at part two, but that's just own conversation. But yeah, there we are. What that's crazy? I mean, there's so many names, so many directors, so many writers. But the main thing I did, I

did see a lot of studio opinions changing the course there. So yes, which is nothing new, especially on in the realm of these of these DC films. It's I mean a couple of things. I guess. On the one hand, as someone who did not enjoy what we ended up getting, you can't help but play what if and say, oh gee, I would have would have been interesting to see this person's take or that person's take.

Putting that aside, I think the Morrison's script is the one that I would be most curious to read because sometime my own journey with Morrison's work, and I've really come around a lot over the past couple of years. As as impenetrable as it can sometimes be, there's there's there's such magnificent stuff there as

well, and so that's what I'd be curious about. But I guess, I guess I'm of two minds, because when you when you lay out that entire development hell that it was in for so many years, on the one hand, you kind of say, hey, at a certain point, maybe

you just move on and you do something else. Right, if you're if you have to work, and we've we all like whether it's personally, professionally creatively, we've all been in situations where sometimes you just you try everything, you try your best to make something come together, and at a certain point you have to realize, hey, this just might not be in the cars

now. Obviously we're talking, you know, these these big ten pole movies, and they already put so much in and they probably felt like we have to get there. So the other thought that I have, and I guess, on the positive side, even though I didn't like what we got, the fact that we even that they were even able to cobble that together after all those years, good good for them, I guess. I guess.

I don't know. Again, for a ton of fans out there, they're grateful for the movie they got there, they're happy that that Warner Brothers stuck it out. But yeah, I mean, I guess that's kind of the two ways to look at it. And so yeah, no, that's very true. I mean, here's the deal. Just because something has a chaotic road to the big screen doesn't mean it's going to be disaster. Jaws one of the best movies of all time, complete wreck, the original Star Wars

filled the whole tattoween set got blown over by a sandstorm. They go no anyway, books and documentaries haven aid about all these these great Hollywood films. Back to the Future, back to let's talk about back to the future for a film, for a film so obsessed with the active future, and I know we need to transition the actual flash here in a second, but I found it so fascinating. They mentioned Robert Zemeckis, right, there were some

back to the Future inspiration here. You know what happened back to the Future, Anthony is they filmed the film with an actor and they're like, you know what, this isn't working, and I know it's going to cost a lot of money and be really difficult, but let's recast this actor before we

released this movie. And they did it. And Back to the Future is one of the best ones of all the time, one of my favorite films of all time, a perfect film, perhaps even if there is such a thing that would be on the list, or with Jaws and the original Star Wars. Right, I'm listening like, so all these perfect, these perfect things can happen from chaos. Right. So I'm not saying like, oh, well, they had so many problems, you're just sort of pull the

blog. Right. They replaced Derek soil swith Michael J. Fox. Maybe they should replace Za Milla for somebody else. But I look at all this and I think mainly the main thing for me is it's crazy to think about all this is going on while the DCU exself was in flux. And that was a huge problem for this because okay, let's let's let's call it how it is. Right, You cast Jeffrey Dean Morgan as Thomas Wayne. You do that because he's gonna be Flashpoint Batman one day. Like that's that's what

you're gonna do. Like, I don't maybe maybe wrong, I mean, I don't know, but like clearly, if if Zack Snyder and stayed around, they had done Justice League, they'd done these other films, you would have done that. And then to me, and this is me examining the film itself because I actually reread Flashpoint afterward because I was like, am I am I miss remembering some stuff to how much did they change? No,

like the emotional core one of them. Well, the whole point of the Batman element is a father who's willing to sacrifice himself to reset the universe, sacrifice his own life to give a son a chance to live. And I'm like, wow, that's as as dark in a bad place this Thomas Wayne was as soon as he realizes that, like I'm not talking about the compact flashmotin right as soon as he realizes that, Okay, well if I help this crazy guy who says he's from another timeline where my son's alive, I'm

gonna do whatever it takes to do that. And that's a huge emotional element here that is missing from from the Flash the film that we got. And they replace them with Michael Keaton, and I of course I understand why they're placing Mike Keaton. I want to see mikey he can come back as Batman since I was a kid, you know um. And they're like, well, it's gonna make a lot more money with Mike Keaton, and I'm like, well, what in hell? You know? I know. I mean,

going back to what I was saying before, it's it's ill. We'll never know, But I don't know. I mean, it might be one of those things where without him it does even worse. As hard as that might be to believe, I mean, I don't know. I can't believe, but yeah, I don't. That's that's the thing. You can't. And then people say, well, I guess nobody cared about Michael Keaton's Batman anyway, That's not the case. People don't care about this, this nonsense.

Perhaps of all the drama I'm not even talking I'm talking about Ezra Miller drama. I'm talking about studio drama. I'm talking about reboot drama. Like there's it's I feel like it's it's hard to kind of sift out, like

what actually was the case. I think it was a perfect storm of we're talking about here, like like, as as of this recording, The Flash has grossed one hundred and one million, seven hundred and thirty one thousand dollars domestically two hundred forty seven million, nine hundred and thirty one thousand dollars internationally. That's crazy. That's after twenty days of release. That's I mean that

they should have made that It's opening weekend, right. Look you go back to those black Adam numbers and all the talk about that and looking so bad now. I guess you know someone of the rocks like mm hmm. Yeah. Yeah. You can't talk about things you didn't get. You to talk about what you got, but sometimes understand why the things you got didn't work.

You gotta think about what you could have done. And I'm not saying some crape, I'm not saying some crazy pie in the sky like, well, you know what really cool if they'd use Toma way back, man, I'm like, well, no, clearly that's the story. You guys said Flashpoint like these are things that are in there. You have gallagha Dot, you have Jason Moa in this film, and you do nothing with them. When in Flashpoint the war of the Atlanteans and Athemiscurions is like huge, that's

like the world. That's why the timeline needs to be fixed, you know, Like, not not because CGI Kristo Reeve is going to crash into CGI Nicholas Cage. That's not why we need to fix the timeline. But that's what they so man like in flash point. So I I enjoy flash Point quite a bit. Jeff John's and my favorite Combic right it's probably when I'm like, if I had to pick a favorite Combic writer, I would say Jeff John just because of his scope of work, and he does a great

job with almost every character he touches um television as well. Obviously some of his film stuff at least some stuff to be desired. But that's its own conversation. But as a story, Flashpoint is I think very affective. Now the problem flash point is, I feel like everybody goes to the well with it too much. We've had an animated movie, We've had a TV adaption, I've had a movie adoption. Now I think we need to let that

story rest. You know that were just like Dart Knight return at this point where even though we've never really had a Dark Knight Returns live action movie, so many elements I mean, BVS took from it, Dark Knight Rises took from it. Even you know, the Burton movies in their own way took from it. There has been a fantastic animated movie. By the way, you've seen the Dark Knight Returns animated movie. Love it, Love it. Yeah, that might be my favorite of all those post DCA movies. So

that's the story you need to wat. You need to just let flash Point rest. It's been running to the ground at this point, no pun intended. So I think as your as your first theatrical film about the Flash, maybe it should be not like the end all be All crossover. That'd be like making Christ on It for Ears or third movie or something. Right, I thought I was waiting for that. I actually thought as I was saying it, I was like, w like killing super second, you know what.

Let me let me just also say for the sake of the audience, just for a little context here, so as you know, so I am a big fan of Snyder's movies. The first time time that I saw A Man of Stealing, I'll keep this quick, not worry. The first time I saw a Man of Steal and BVS, I was a bit mixed. So I say that because I've kind of been on both. I've kind of been on both sides of it, and I found that with some time and repeated viewings, I really came to appreciate what he was doing. And I

love the three movies that we ended up getting from him. I'm not militant in my views, so I understand the issues that people have. I would have loved to have seen him be able to complete his full arc, but I'm glad that we at least got what we did. And when I talk about my frustration with the Flash movie, it's it's not really coming from the

perspective of we should be getting more Snyder movies instead. I mean, yes, I would prefer if we were, but at this point, and I felt this way for probably years now, I really just want a clean break. And to your point, I think that's there's so much wrapped up in

all of this. There's the Flash movie itself, but yeah, there's the long development road, and then there's the road ahead too, and this sort of again quasi reboot that we're heading towards, and so all of that is kind of swirling around as we're talking about this, but circling back to where you're saying, yeah, that's a good point. It's funny. I wasn't

even really thinking about that so much. But yeah, I mean Flashpoint, as your first solo flash Outing might be might be jumping they gotten a little bit. Maybe you do want to kind of take a step back at the same time, as much as the Arrow Verse adapted it, they it was

so much smaller in scale. So if they were going to do this and really do it, and give us that Wonder Woman, aquamand War and give us Thomas Wayne and give us all of that which otherwise we've only seen brought to life in animated form, which which was cool, but to see that in live action, I think there could have been something valuable there. But yeah, they did not. They did not go far enough at all.

No, I think, yeah, I mean talking about like the flash movie we got now let's talk about but I transition into that is what we're talking about her. That the source material. So they looked at the source material and they were like, okay, let's just eliminate acquamand and Wonder Woman. They're not going to be in it. And I'm like, why would you do that? Those are the two most successful characters, and well, I would say franchises, but you know, I you know, the ones that

connected with the general audience more than anybody else's interpretations. I don't think bat Fleck did as well, but that's its own kind of conversation. But you know, you have Galga dott you have Disma, they're here, they're under contract, they're supposed to be making more movies with you. That has seems to have changed, right, But at the time this was coming out, like why are you not leaning into making them a huge subplot of the film. You get to lean into, Hey, do you guys like you guys

like Wonder Woman? Right, Like you're fighting things and do you ever fight Aquaman? Right, You're like, I mean, that's that's just that's just common sense to me. I mean, I don't understand why you just eliminate

that entirely. It's this, it's this weird thing where yes, putting aside whether or not Flashpoint should be your first solo flash movie, nevertheless, you've still built it's a bit shoddy, You've built this shared cinematic universe, right, And and like you said, I mean those were Reception to Wonder Woman eighty four is high, but just in terms of the actors and the their depictions of these characters generally very well received. And you have the audience.

You know, the audience knows these characters and these actors as these characters. So you have the ingredients in place here, right, Like I know one of the BVS criticisms, And to be honest, even though I've I love it, I do still understand this how it was sort of looking to short circuit the universe building process, and we got all the you know, the cameos and that whole bit that that laptop scene. I hate that. I know, I know it doesn't bug me, but I but I do get

it. And so you know, that might be a very fair criticism of that film. But you know, here you got they were at a point where you've you've introduced these characters. You like, the pieces are in place, you can just go nuts. And and again it's not it's not like these characters were totally unrepresented in these movies. They were there. They were there, and these laughable cameos. Oh my goodness. Great, Yeah, so you were moved because because they move. He was called Flashpoint at once

upon a time. They change it back to the flash right, that's all. I want to go through all that stuff for various reasons to get some context, and you're you're still clearly based off flash Point. There's no arguing that there is no this is more based off Flashpoint than than obviously BVS was

Death of Superman or World's Finance or any other kind of combook story. I mean, I'm trying to DC wise, Anthony, has there been another I mean, seriously, has there been another DC comics movie that has been so based off a comic book? Ministers, Marvel does it a lot. Winter Soldier, Civil War, Infinity War. Right, they take these giant events and they make films out of them. Now they change a lot, right, Winter Soldier totally different in a lot of ways, But I think they're

both equally good. So that's another thing. I'm not saying, you change what was at the page, Like, yeah, if you're gonna change it, and you, dude, like adapted properly. I feel like it's a very poor adaption of that story. I can't think of any other DC comic movie, live action movie that has adapted a straight up DC comic story like before. Yeah, I mean, excluding Watchman, which is its own thing

anyway. Yeah. Yeah, But well, our mutual friend Tyler from Kryptime Report, after I did my episode on Shazam Fury of the Gods and we were talking about this depiction of of Shazam and everything, he did point me towards a Jeff John's miniseries. I think that. I think the movie followed very closely the New fifty two. Yeah, I know what you mean. Yeah, because Savannah gets the powers and things like. That's that's a good point. But that's but even that, I don't know that we could go

again. I haven't read it, so I can't say for sure. But I don't know if we would even say that was a strict adaptation, and if even it's one out of all these movies, well even the Alkamani two. Alcaman, Yeah, there's the trenches in there, right, Jeff Sean stuff again, So that's in. There are elements in the movie, but it's always like the DC always takes these bits and piece. That's why you get Nightfall, you get No Man's Land, and you get Dartne returns in

the darknight rises right for for example. Right, Um, but this, more than anything else, this is based off you know, flashmore so you remove this this obvious thing to do. So that's one pillar gone, right, Alcaman versus a Wonder Woman. Um, I've I've read all this stuff like emper Rockaman and all this, like all those spinoffs. I'm my self, I have the entire flashpoint. World's a flashpoint, you know, the kind of thing I was all familiar with those. They weren't all A plus

stuff, but they were good. Again, you have, as you said, you have the pieces. Sound like, run with that. So that's gone. One Romans in this movie for one of the most cringe scenes I've ever seen her in. Remember the scene from Jostice League that everybody was like, oh, look, Acaman, he's talking about I'm much show what beautiful one Roman is the gag that he's sitting on the last of the truth and

doesn't know it right. Well, they did it again, but even worse because it's like Batman's like, oh, I should really just give away all my money, And they took this meme off the internet and made it a thing. And then Barry's talking about like I don't know what sex is. I'm like, what are you talking about, y'all? This is embarrassing. This is absolutely embarrassing. And then and then, honestly, just to put a cherry on top, she flies off like she doesn't want one and eighty

four, which is really awesome, makes me back. I mean, it makes the it makes the wonder when we can't Zam looked pretty good compared to this. Yeah, that's true. Actually I would take that over this and any day. It's funny because I know there was talk even going into this movie about how it how it does reference events from the Snyder cut, and it does, but totally it feels so vastly more in line with Josice League.

So that's the sort of thing where as someone who who very much enjoyed Zack Snyder's Justice leaue, I don't sit there, and I'm like, I wasn't sitting there like, oh, this is great. It's it feels like that movie. It's like, nah's all right, No. I mean, if there's one other movie I could compare this, it was joice League. Just just all the worst elements of that turn up to eleven um. So that's so she's din all command. You know. He has this awful post

credit scene where he's just a fool and he falls. Oh he's drunk, even though they established an a command that he can't get drunk. He's sitting there with his dad and he can't get drunk, like that's I mean, it's a thing. But then now he can because it's funny and he's fumbling around on the ground passing out a puddle. And that's how we end these characters. Um, And it's just it's it's it's insulting, I think to these characters, it is I said this to you via a proprivate message where

after we'd seen the movie. I like, for Jason Momo, I mean, I know this is his job and he wants to continue in whatever role. It seems like he'll be Alkaman, he'll be Lobo, he'll be both, and I get it. But it's just at a certain point, I don't know. I mean, unless he really likes he likes this look for his character, I wonder at what point might he say, Hey, guys, you know we've we've really built this character up into into this badass.

Maybe we don't, maybe we don't play him for such a joke. But even putting that aside, it's still so baffling to me that again, with where we are, we still have two movies left. We have Blue Beetle, who, as we've learned again is the first character of the James gun verse, but not the first movie. And then we have Aquaman in the Lost Kingdom. And so this post credit scene in Flash is the last time we're gonna see Aquaman before his very long awaited sequel. It's just so odd

to me that that's that's the note you want to leave people on. Makes no sense. It doesn't It doesn't tease anything, doesn't set anything up. It's like Berry's like, oh yeah, there's a lot of Bruce Wayne's Oh okay, and that's its own conversation. We'll get to that. But but so completely wasted. Both both aquamand I wonder one of this. So that pillar is gone, Let's go to the other pillar of Flash part. Let's say there's three pillars of flashmarn Right. Pillar one is the Demiscurian, a

lady of war God. Pillar two Thomas Wayne Batman God. Now financially I understand, Hey, let's bring back Michael Keaton because I mean, you know, you've heard of people listen to this podcast. I don't patreons main feeds. I don't have had these conversations, but these me and last last I've had these these fun conversations about it. And he's been very anti this the whole time, and I was like, ah, you know, but it makes sense though, the they're gonna use this to prop up the Flash financially,

because mean, who wants to go see in Ezra Miller Flashmo? We know one of course, right know. But if you put Michael Keaton Batman in it, people like, oh yeah, Like the general public knows that they love that, right, so that it makes sense if he's like going through multi verses and somehow plays a role and that's you know whatever. But to the reason Michael Keaton's Batman and I love Michael Keaton's Batman. I like

seeing him again, but he didn't need to be here. They could have been any Batman I for this criticism't going around and I agree with it, like it could have been George Clooney, could have been Val Kilmer. Um. There's no emotional weight to this character because he's there to to say lines that you've heard before, talk about cringe. Let's get nuts, so cringe. This is what people thought Spider Man. No, my home was gonna be It's it's just I and I'm not gonna say that like it ruined legacy

of Mike Kin's Batman. I didn't do that. Fortunately. I feel like once he was kind of like established you in his thing, it to treat him with the proper respect and he had a good action scene breaking out Supergirl, which oh, I guess is a sub biller. I guess we can talk about. But like the fact that he's just here saying some lines and and and then dies and then that's it. Dies multiple times. By the way, don't get too attached to your favorite Batman kids, because he's gonna

die hundreds of times. Um complete misuse of him. Honestly, it really was nothing about his world other than like, hey, we recreated the kitchen for Batman and nine. Who cares? I don't care. I love Batman and mine. I don't care they recreated the kitchen for Batman eighty nine. You don't have it. Didn't even look that way in Batman Returns. Who care? The Batmobile is there is a prop, they take the they take the tarp off, and they don't even use it. Now. I do

like the new bat Plane. It was pretty cool, sure, sure, but so the thing, I mean a couple of pieces of this. So number one, I quote unquote my Batman is Christian Bale. I get the love from Michael Keaton. I've recently revisited those movies. I was I was so little when they came out, and they just didn't, you know. When I eventually did see them, I mean, I enjoyed them, and they definitely made an impression on me, but again not to the point where

I'm like, this is my Batman. So Keaton being in this movie doesn't do as much for me as it does for you, as it does for a lot of people. But even even that aside, that's exactly it. I think this is a very very valid criticism of this that it truly could

have been any Batman. And I've said this, and maybe it's a hot take, but it's like, even if instead of bringing back Jeffrey Dean Morgan, which of course would have made more sense than had been set up, but even if they had Keaton playing Thomas Wayne and I get maybe I just would have been had On Hall I would have been too confusing for me.

Already recast dads in this movie anyway, well that's the thing, and at least thematically, then you would have gotten exactly what you're talking about when when we refer to flashpoint and that emotional arc, and or even again, it's like if it had just still been batflex somehow, because that's the Batman that Barry has the connection with it, just the thing, and I'm glad you brought up No Way Home because I feel like with that, yes, you

have the fan service element, and they do the pointing meme, and it's cool to see the three of them together, but there's a specific reason why those three have to come together, and the lessons that Toby and Andrew are able to impart to the Holland version. It's a major part of that film and his arc in it. And here again, it truly could have been any Batman, and I felt they just lost sight of to whatever extent they

were trying to adapt this story, they just missed it. And what they what they had there was it was fan service, but I don't feel like there was really the substance behind it. I mean, I feel like the arc that they did give him where Barry helped bring him back to life and he's you know, he's out there again, it was paper thin, like

there was just not enough there. First stuff, first draft stuff. Also like, okay, let's let's because being a huge fan of those films and this character and that version, right, you've speculated for years, but what this that Robin whatever? Right? Nothing, there's nothing, There's not there's not even you know, Hey Snyder gave us a Robin suit in the Batcave and we're like, wow, what is that? Your imagination goes wow.

People thought Jared Little was Jason Todd for a while there, right, but there was so much there's nothing to work with you other than hey, man, I'll tell you what. When they pulled up that laughing bag, I was like, I'm done. Like that was the ultimate slap in the face because that I don't fan service man. Now I be getting fired up now. But like fan service, you gotta be careful with it because like for the people you're trying to appeal to, you're just pissing them off when you

just act like it's nothing, like hey, remember we said that? Yeah, I do, I saw that. Do you do you ever see this? This old s and L skit? I sell people making this comparison on Twitter, But it was Chris Farley and he used to do like it was and like Paul McCartney say, hey, remembered you were in the Beatles. Paul mccartan's like yeah. He's like, wasn't that cool. Paul McCarty's like, yeah, yeah, that was cool. You know, there's just I

don't remember the whole skin or whatever. But I'm like, that's the equivalent. It's like, hey remember the Battleville, Yeah, I do. That was cool, Like like I don't like it's it's it's not enough to just say, hey, you remember this thing. I know what that is. Like they're the regular media thing. I know what that is. That's this is the epitome of that. This is the epitome of that. Now there

was I did like some Michael Keatons. He's like he's talking to Barry, like, you know, I thought maybe I could bring my parents back by fighting crime, and you actually did it. That's a great scene. There are some great scenes in here. I'm not gonna I'm not gonna say the whole thing is a waste of time. There's some great self But again,

that could be any batman that speaks to nothing about his personal experience. Now No Way Home Andrew Garfield him catching him Jay completes the circle of him not catching Gwin. Like there's emotional and then and they don't throw it in your face either, like you just know they mentioned some things and like and you know and like that's such an emotional moment. We all knew what was gonna happen, Like as soon as the trailer, we knew we trailer, we

knew that it was gonna be edu Garfield. But it still hits you, right, And they were so smart not to reveal all that stuff, you know, like like we didn't know, like honestly, up the up till the release of No Way Home, we le generally did not know of Andrew and Toby were going to be in it. And now we knew the villains were, but we didn't know who they were. But this Michael Keaton super Girl, you know the I think even did wonderm would even make a trailer.

I don't know if she did or not. That was in the commercials. It's like, come right, guys, So maybe it wouldn't hit you different, but just yes actually, So on that note, a little quick little anecdote. So a very dear friend of mine, Rich who I met through our local comic shop, and uh, he's he's as as old as my father. Just for context, because my dad also really liked this movie.

But I bring up this anecdote because Rich uh was over here recently and we recorded and not about the flash, but he had just taken his nephew to see the film, and I had kind of prepped him a little bit ahead of the time. I didn't spoil anything, but he knew I was not a fan of this movie. So he's over here the other day and it's like the day after he's seen the movie and I'm setting up the equipment. I'm like, oh, like, what do you think of the flash?

And he goes, I loved it. And so it does sound like a jerk, but my gut reaction was he was messing with me. I like the notion of him like loving it. I like, it really took me a second. But then I was like, all right, cool. I'm like I'm glad. I mean, I'm glad you liked it. And we had all discussion about it, and he was like, what it's like, what didn't you like about it? And I was almost like, listen. I did like an hour and forty minutes on this. He could listen,

but just listen. But I gave him just kind of the broad strokes of it, and I felt like I felt myself getting fired up as I was talking about it. But the I bring this up because he believe it or not managed to go into that movie almost entirely unspoiled, And you might say, how is that possible? Again, I mentioned that he's he's in his sixties, so not not that this is a determining factor, but he

does not have Wi Fi at home, he does not have cable. He uses the Internet at his job, but he claims that they have this very restrictive firewall. I've always thought it's an excuse if there's something he doesn't want to read. He's like, oh, I couldn't read you know, the firewall, got it? But but but maybe there is. So that's all to say that it seems like he went into this really not knowing anything. And I know we'll talk about the Superman Supergirl of it all in a minute.

But when I was talking to him about that, and I was like, but like, we knew Supergirl was in he was, oh, I didn't know. He was like, I think I saw her on the poster before I walked into the theater. I was like, which is sounds insane, right, that someone could not know that Supergirl was in this movie. And again, I think he's probably the more extreme case as far as really not knowing anything about this movie. But he really enjoyed it, and I

think being able to go in unspoiled did help a lot. Which again, when we talk about how they sold this movie and how much they gave away it was it was egregious, but it was funny too. When you were mentioned about the kitchen scene, he loved, like, he loved that detail. He loved that they recreated the kitchen like that was enough for him.

So again, you know, everybody has a different reaction to this, but that stuff usually, like I usually appreciate that kind of stuff, Like if you're like Star Wars or Star Trek, like, oh, they went back into the thing and they recreated I'm like, oh, that's gray. I mean we've seen a lot of that stuff in recent iterations of both franchises, Star Trek and Star Wars, where you revisit the bridge of the Enterprise or

you revisit you know, the the star whatever. Right, Um, but they might in Batman Returns of his totally different house anyway, So who care, Like that stuff doesn't matter, you know, Um, I'm gonna go on this Keaton thing for a second, but like Nicool, see those suits, Yeah, I mean those suits were cool, But Michael Keaton never wore those suits, but he was a new Batman at Batman at Night. He doesn't have those blue and gray the guns. Is that like, that's that's

not you mix in your combat mythology with the with the Batman mythology. So it's someone who really knows those movies in and out that those were not his suits. And they were cool to see. I know someone were based off the Kinner toys and some of them afterward. That's fine, But no, that he didn't have a oh when it cool he had the Year one thing with a gun. No, they didn't have that. I saw his Year

one. It was in nineteen eighty nine. So he is we have to go through the whole like he's a crazy hermit with long hair who doesn't care. I'm like, okay, okay, why is he like this? Why let's take this through. He's not Batman anymore? Why not because he's old, not because he has a tragedy of some kind like Batman Beyond or Dark Knight Returns. Because crime has been solved. Batman is eradicated crime. Okay, well that's you know what, that's interesting. Let's go into that.

And we're not gonna go into that. Oh okay, but he's gonna have like trash and pizza and wine everywhere and be hanging out in a sweater and slippers with long hobo hair and a beard. Why why? Like he's he depressed? No, like Dark Knight Rises Christian Bale, I didn't. I didn't agree with that story decision for Batman, especially a young Batman, but he was a reclusive with a beard and a cane in a robe. I'm like, okay, well, because he's depressed, why is this Ruswain doing

this? The the Flashers they say, hey, help us save the multiverse, and he's like, dah, I'm not going to what why? But at the end he's like, you brought me back, brought you back from what you seem fun. So I don't. I don't even understand his character arc, you know what I'm saying, Like the more I think about this and like it doesn't make it doesn't hold up. He should be like, oh, a chance to be Batman again, but like my life is a

meaningless without Batman. Yes, I can be Batman again, right, but no, he turns them down and he doesn't even jump at the chance. And then when he is Batman, he's a more effective, crazy acrobatic Batman than he ever was thirty years ago. He's not even wearing a cybernetic suit or anything. He's just Batman, you know. So, so the arc does not track for Keaton's Batman anything. It doesn't. No, it doesn't,

it doesn't. And I mean presumably he's he's not still been training, right, He really like he's out of it, so his physical capabilities really do feel like a stretch. But no, it's it's very true. Yeah, I mean I think it really is very very thin. I mean, I feel like, in terms of what they give you, all you can really surmise is, yes, he did such a good job that Batman was no longer needed and he had I mean, I guess ultimately this idea of

all that he had was wrapped up in Batman. So when Batman is not needed, he just he has nothing else. He's never cultivated anything else. But yeah, he turns him down, he gets the chance to be Batman

again. I know that's the piece in particular where it really falls apart that I don't know's he's just so far gone at this point, I don't know, but I guess he's been spending his time boning up on the you know, quantum mechanics of time travel multiversal theory because he was exceedingly well versed in

that. So this is I think I think must have been with Star Trek O nine, which kicked this off, or like you gotta have you have a legacy character and they understand how multiverse works, and they got to explain to everybody else. So we had in Startric Go nine, who had in Lenny Boys back Terminator Genesis, who had Arnod Schwarzenegger as the Germinator explaining you

know, multiverse theory to people. Here you have Keatons Batman. There's other versions of it, but like you know what I'm talking about, Like there's always that character, usually the one that you knew from before who has the knowledge. Well, John Weisley Ship and as the Flash in the arrow Verse, he's that guy, right sowhat so better used, so better used John Weisley Ship, Like like that guy, he was still the Flash and he

gave his life to save the multiverse. And it makes me cry when I watch it because it's that's taken that that element from chryslo Infant Nurse of the Flash saving everybody else and you're vested in anyway. I'm going on this soapbox

now. But that scene, like, where was there anything close to that in this movie of like you know, of Keaton his Batman, It doesn't hold a candle to what they did with John was the ship and the crisis thing where he takes Barry that are buried CW versus Berry Speed and gives his life to save him. And anyway, oh I'm getting like anyway, you know what I'm saying, zach Zak has now become the Charlie. It's always sunny in Philadelphia meeting for But that's that's what they should have been. You

know, No, I don't know what. I don't know what it could have been like if Thomas Wayne would have served that function, right, that that Coore element, that through line of him like the letter right, everybody, everybody who don't know Flashpoint know the letter right, the Thomas Wayne writes to his son and makes Batman cry at the end, you're a hell of a messenger. There's none of that here because it doesn't exist because he's just

another Batman. I mean, he's nothing to him. Well, you know that's the other thing too, And you know, not to take us too far Afield with Catflic. But it's just like there too, there's no arc, right, He's you know, he's there, and he has the scene

with Barry, and it's a great scene with the two of them. Outside of Barry's play, it would be better if Barry then has this experience with Bruce's father Thomas in flashpoint and then comes back and gives him the letter, and you have some kind of you have some kind of payoff to this, as opposed to only written that way. Because he's like, I could save your parents. You're like, oh, that must have been from that draft

number two, right, gets paid off? Yeah. Also, I don't I love I love Batfleck and I love Ben Affleck, so I don't want to dump on the guy. But he's always interviews. He's talking about how he's like, I finally feel like I understood how to play this character. And yes, that scene with Barry in the car is very good. But then we also have the Wonder Woman Lasso scenes, so it's like, well, what are we doing here? I don't know. I also don't sell

yourself short. I really feel like I feel like he did some great work in Snyder's Justice League and NBVS. But I mean, I'm bappy for him that he was pleased with his flash performance. Yeah, but but yeah again just when we're talking about the themes and again just setups and payoffs, and we'll get into it again when we talk about the super side of it.

But it's just that scene with Bath Bathfleck at the beginning, or with Bruce in particular, without that kind of letter scene at the end or some sort of equivalent, I feel like it's it's just kind of you know, much

ado about nothing. And you bring up a very good point though about the risk in this kind of fan service because at worst, and I would argue that this might be the case here when you bring back on my Keaton, if you don't do it with the care and the respect and the knowledge that the diehard fans are looking for, then again you risk alienating the people who it's ostensibly meant for. And at the same time you have people who don't have that level of investment, so it's not going to do as much for

them. Again. The other thing, too, is especially within our comic book, you know community, it's like, of course the Keaton Batman is

huge, but like I don't know for regular audiences. Again, if this had been Christian Bail, and I'm not saying that I would have wanted I'm I'm glad that the Bail stuff is in its own point, but it's like, if it had been him, I feel like, just as far as general audiences go, I feel like that would have that you know, that would have So again, my point is, it's like, when you do something like this, if if it's not enough to really satisfy the initiated and

the you know, the general audience who doesn't really have the attachment, it's not doing much for them, then it's just like, what are we doing? No, it's it's a hard needle, the threat it is. But Spider Man Away Home found a way? Yeah? Uh so that I mean, they did it before, y'all, even though I think they announced the

flash before the way home. Marvel's like, oh, we better get on that, and at per usual, Marvel beats DC to the punts theatrically you know, Thanist came out after Dark Side everybody, but no one knows that anymore. M Your points valid about Keaton too, I mean as much as I'm like, ass, oh, yeah, I grew up watching Michael Keaton, I had my Batman returns toys as a kid. Right, how many Batman have been since? Val Kilhamer, George Clooney, Christian Bale, Ben

Affleck, Robert Pattinson. I mean, that's just that's just you know, movies and stuff, not to mention all the other versions. So it's not like it's not like, for example, m Arno Sortunator come Backs the Terminator for example. Now those movies have our own problems, but it's like, oh it's Arnold, you know, like that point all wraps into their decision, which at the time I supported. I was like, well, how many more people are gonna go see this movie now that Michael Keatons in it?

Then that guy from Walking Dead and Supernatural as Batman what like, you know, to the general public, right, might have been wrong? Might have been wrong. Also, I know we've we've we've specifically focused on Jeffrey Dean Morgan, but you also had Lauren Cohan from The Walking Dead as Martha, and you know the Martha Martha character has a lot to do in Flashpoint as well, so that again, I mean, there was such a great set up there that just went completely you know, left by the wayside.

Yeah, and I think they underestimated that. We've said it a few times now, but I think they underestimated the importance to that element of this story once you start taking out ingredients, right, So that's the second pillar gone, Thomas Wayne Batman and again him killing people versus the Batman who doesn't kills Reverse Flash. That like only that Maatman could do that. That's its own

conversation in the story. But it needs to remove so many things. So two pillars are gone, there is a third pillar, and we're gonna say Superman for last actually because this is a Superman special Superman f that's but let's talk about Barry and Reverse Flash. Um. I literally these these movies had me question like was I wrong? Did Reverse Flash not kill his mom? And the comics the whole it was me Barry, that whole meme is that

Mandela effected? Am I rock? Um? Because it's so interesting that they don't care who killed Barry's mom and this like that's that's I don't know, I would think that would be the first thing you would do. Is maybe I'm just maybe I'm too familiar now and I've been with the TV show for so long, but they did that so well, and this the show got not good over several seasons. This right, but the first season is fantastic.

I think he kind of put us right around the third. You know, basically everyone I ever talked to says they stopped watching the third myself included. They came back around to it at the end of the show the ninth season. They had a great episode. They kind of wrapped up that particular plot, which I've found very satisfying. This series finale not to watch, but but that through line of first Flash Flash, the nexus point, if you will, of the night's mom died and how all that worked was done

so well. And I'm not saying that they need to do it exactly like

that, but you have that example and it was done so well. And for them to just to have Reverse Flash for all intents and purposes, now I understand there's Dark Flash, which was spoiled and all the toys and stuff, and we all knew who that was going to be, right, but to just remove Reverse Flash, who was, in my opinion, one of the greatest combat villains there is because I just his just connection to Barry period, like from being like a fan in the future getting his powers and anyway

to remove him is just crazy to me. So that's even I was thinking that at least they kept this part of Flashpoint, but actually not really. So that's half of a pillar is gone. So from their three pillars of Flashpoint, you have half a pillar left of like Barry goes back in time to stop his mom from being dead, but half of that whole thing is

gone, And that was a very big miss calculation in my opinion. Yes, absolutely, it's It's interesting because when Jeff Johns brought Barry Allen back in Flash Rebirth after I mean technically he returned in Final Crisis, but then Jeff Johns did the Flash Rebirth mini series. This was years before the official Rebirth publishing initiative for the very we were talking about. But I I mean,

I had mixed feelings about Barry coming back to begin with. You know, Wally has always been my Flash. But I was still I was still interested. I didn't really love this new twist on the origin story that Barry's mother had died and his father was blamed for it and Reverse Flash was responsible. This was not the first time that Jeff Johns added the death of a parent to an origin story. Did the same thing with hal Jordan, and yeah,

that was that not the case for hal Jordan before. I don't believe so, or if it was, it wasn't like the past, Yeah I don't. I don't believe it was, or at least if his father had that, it wasn't his driving motivation the way that it the way that it became. Uh and short after taking over the Superman books that not this wasn't a ret conto the Origin but killed off pop Kent. So it's I was getting a little fed up and going back to Jeff Johns, there was a

point in time he I would definitely say he was my favorite. That's shifted. But I've read a ton of Jeff Johns. I've enjoyed a lot, so I am with you. But that's all to say that again, I wasn't really all that hot on that initial idea of this change to Barry's origin. But what I think is effective about it, I think you're right. I think the Flash Show, when it was at its best, it was

dealing with that and really did a great job. But like, what makes it work is that it is different than it's not a random act of violence like a Batman origin story or the Peter Parker story. It's that you have your greatest adversary destroying your life in this very fundamental way. And so that puts a different spin on this typical kind of origin story that we've gotten with

this random act of violence and of parent or or parent figures death. And so when you take that out, but you keep, you know, you can keep the mother's death, it's like you've you've removed the piece of it that I think really kind of puts that different spin on it. So I and I feel like there was an interview that that the director and his sister,

the producer just like recently gave where they taught. I guess they're like they acknowledge that Reverse Flash was the killer, and I think I didn't read the whole thing, so don't hold me to this, but I think, yeah, yeah, yeah, but it's like, come on, like this was your this was your opportunity. Come on. I feel like that's making it up after the fact, in my opinion, because if you're going to have Reverse Flash, you would have had him here. Look, we don't

know, we can't speak for the director. We don't know what the directors, you know, history and experience and knowledge level of all of the stuff is. However, you know in hearing you talk about the Keen stuff and you know kind of things that you might have been looking for that or abs and it's just like and well, I know we'll talk more about the arrow Verse, the just the glaring omission of Grand Goustin of John Wesley ship.

And you know, one question that I've posed kind of jokingly but not really, it's like the people involved with this film, the director in particularly, like do they even know about Like I've never seen any of these arrow Verse show like I And again, I know it sounds like I'm being flipped and

I made to an extent, but I don't know. And so not that he's never seen the like the Keaton movies, but as someone who does know when love those movies so much, did you feel like the representation of Michael Keaton and Batman eighty nine and that Mamory Turns was coming from a similar sort of place. There's there's some elements. Yes, I mean it's not a

complete unrecognizable thing. I Like I mentioned the bad plant, the new batwing not the same batwing from before, but that one got destroyed, of course you'd have a new batwing. And I think it was a great evolution of those designs of vehicles. I'm like, Okay, check the Batcave. Cool, great matter. Sure Batman when he's when during the Supergirl rescue, for

the most part, I liked it. He was using tools and gadgets, and that's the kind of Batman he is in darkness, right, in shadow but Batman both Batman or in the daylight seventy five percent of the time. And that's like, did you what? That's not Batman? Like, I don't you don't understand, like, what are you doing? But yes, some of that Michael Keaton stuff was good, but it just I just could

have been any Batman. Here's a random sort tangent. I don't know why he thought about this, right, but I was thinking, like, give me some sort of evolution of where we are, right and adding stakes right, And I thought about and I don't know, like this is a different movie, multiverse jumping all that. What if Ezra Miller showed up in the universe flash where Crystal'donald was Batman, you know, and you're like, wow, that's interesting, And then I don't know who is Batman what maybe his

Batman is dead. I don't know who it is. It could have been filling the blank. He could have been Michael Keat, it could have been Valkimer, could have been George Clinty, right, and then they have a conversation. They have conversation similar the way that told me McGuire has conversations with Tom Holland about like, oh yeah, my best friend I had to kill

him or row. I just thought, I'm just thinking about like like something um that would be like, oh, make you like kind of sit up and pay attention to some sort of stakes and like, but then you have to be like if Crystal'donald has to help you in order to restore Val Kilmer.

I don't know, I don't know how you play that out, but I'm just saying, like as an experiment to have something like oh, well that is interesting and not just like oh yeah, well okay, I he's crazy hobo brus way and he comes back and does some Batman stuff and and quote unquote plays the hits as a as a terment I've heard being used and I would agree, like the yeah I'm Batman. No no, that is

that was so super Bowl. It literally was a Supermo commercial, but it was like a like a like a Dorito's commercial, kind of like where people show up and then play their famous characters. Like I've said this before, I said on the other podcast, I'll say it again. I said it years ago. Actually, if you go back and listen to a podcast the way you do that and I'm not saying and again I'm not saying that because they didn't do this way I came up with my head five years ago.

It sucks. I'm saying this is a better way. As a Miller flash shows up in a Tim Burton looking Gotham, I think that's essential. But we didn't care about that, did we. That taxi's from Central City. He drove all the way to Gotham City. By the way, we saw how far apart those were at the beginning of the film Man, that taxi guy's getting a lot of money. All right, I'm going on answer. But as a Miller flash shows up in a ken Burton esque Gotham and he

sees some commotion going on, and he sees Batman. Just you see the cape and calbum or whatever. You don't see who it is, right, It seems just kills somebody or something. Right, he said, whoa, who are you? It turns around as Michael King's like, I'm Batman and I'm like, whoa, Like what an interesting reintroduction of the character that have been Instead of crazy hobob'restween fighting you, it is Kitchen for example. Yeah, So, like, I get what you're saying. And that's why I

brought up this question about the director's intention. It's like, I assume that everyone involved was well intention but I guess if it with Keaton in particular, just as the example, I don't know. Part of me just feels like if it were coming from that place of you know, love for those original movies, like you would think maybe that that they would take the opportunity to do some of those things that you're referencing right too, to answer some of

those questions about the character that they've always wondered that we've always wondered. It was the bat Cave with like you know, the mister Freeze gun and the two phase coin, just to say that he had these adventures, right exactly. So the lack of that, for the most part, I don't know, it just makes me wonder, well that you talk about spoiling stuff in the trailers like that, They're right, you saw those all those batsuits and

the chillers, the ones I was criticizing earlier. But again I like the idea. I appreciate the idea because Batman has us. But while they up the while they up in the library, by the way, man, or why aren't they in the back cave? Anyway, but the extent that we saw them in the trailers is the extent that we saw in the movie.

Like what is that? Like, I don't like you? That teases more, but like, oh no, that's it anyway, So this is the flash portion of the back to Keaton again, but that we're talking about this because you're talking about the first flash and carrying on the the the spirit of things and removing reverse flash, and this removes the spirit of things, Like are we to assume I don't. I don't think they were trying to say

this, but dark flash is not reverse flash. Dark flash is just twisted future Barry and he certainly need to go back and kill his mom because he wanted to stop you know, the original Berry from letting her die. So I don't know, like and that it works for me too, Like I agree, it gets kind of like he does every superhero need some kind of tragic origin, right, Like can we not have just somebody with a nuclear family, you know, who decides to do the right thing because it's the

right thing to do, and that's the beauty of the Flash. Retcon is like, oh well he had that until his arch nemesis took that away from

it. And in one of the spinoff like Worlds Will Flush Point Comics, there's a short story about reverse Flash just slowly changing thing like there's one in particular like Barry has a friend and then like verse Flash like races his friend from history and he's like and then you were by yourself like god, like this is but he's a psychopath, like this is who That's how he is.

So that's so interesting, right, and that's just all gone. It's just oh yeah, it's just I'm Barry, I'm the other word, goofy lomb but now I'm super evil because I've done this one hundred thousand times and

I'm like, oh okay. So then it's like here thinking about we're talking about the Flash part all those right, the climax of this they keep going back in time, Like what five minutes, right, should there not be like one hundred thousand flashes running around to fight the Kryptonians, you would think based off the rules of this, because the rules of this I'm not talking about any other science fiction whatever, the rules of this film clearly show.

When Barry goes back, like to the grocery store, he sees the other Barry there, so they're both there. You know, I know, I know that's a good point. It's not just that it's it's breaking what we've to understand to be the rules of time travel from other things. It's not adhering to what it itself has set up here. And again, just going back to the murder of Barry's mother, Yeah, I mean, regardless of what they're now claiming in these interviews, we all we have to go on

is what we were presented with in this movie. And again, unless and until we get another movie that fills in the backstory, it's it just the way it plays is just it was a random act of violence, which again is we've seen this in other stories. And look, the ultimate emotional journey here still is what it is, and the ultimate lesson that he needs to learn of he can't fix everything. Sure we still have that, but uh, yeah, I don't know. I feel like it's definitely lacking something there.

And yes, the whole time travel aspect, yeah, it did not follow its own rules. I mean, unless there's I don't know, you probably hear from someone who has some other way way to account for this.

I don't know if we're missing something, But well, couple a couple more things on the Flash part of it all, like the thing with the Flash's dad with with Henry Allen in the comics, Actually he's died in prison, you know, like that's he's not a factor, right, So I think maybe then, I don't know, maybe there's a comic that did it again

and it's different interpretations. But in the TV show, obviously they had the John Wiley ship factor playing the dad, and that was such a huge emotional anchor for that first season, which they just oddly threw away in the second season. By the way, that's the one of the weirdest choices that they're like, well, Son, I'm out of jail, I have to go on a walk about about this world. What what where you going? Like? Could you not just have made him a make character for out of season.

Anyway, it's a very strange creative choice. The Billy Krutip Ezra Miller vibe was great in Justice League. I thought recasting with Ron Livingston, fine, I guess, but you're telling me Brittley Krutip couldn't have found a week

out of his schedule to do this. I know that's the thing. Unless there and again we know it went through all these different the script at least went through all of these different versions, and who knows what's on the cutting room floor, unless there was more at the outset or more that they filmed than that precluded him. I don't know, But you're right. You look at what you ultimately get in this movie, and that that first scene of him on the phone that I have been anywhere, Yes, don't even have

a face to face. We got one in Justice League, but he didn't have it here. That's that's crazy for for this because what should his drive be, not just to save his mom, but to make his dad absolved from this crime? He has no He tucks us down on the phone, and then he's in the same courtroom with him at the end, and that's it. There's nowhere's that bond for for what two scenes in Justice League you failed it and obviously in the flast TV show you feel and that's if you're

going to go that route, you got to establish it, right. Yes, let's dissect I really I've want to discuss this for just just a couple of minutes, proving that Henry Allen didn't kill Nora. So there's a there's one surveillance camera in this grocery store, and it happens to be right over the cannon tomatoes. There's no other surveillance cameras apparently, are we is that

where we should believed there's no surveillance cameras. I guess he paid or I don't know if they maybe they even said this that he paid with cash. I don't recall that, but I'm like, theres there no receipt, No, no receipt, No, the cashier couldn't identify him. There was no traffic cam. I mean, I guess this was going back. That's the thing I know. Yeah, see, I wanted to give them. I know it's it's a man of Steel time the same days. Yeah. Actually,

wait wait a second, No, not twenty thirteen. I'm sorry, it is a little further back. Yeah, when he's a kid, but still not Yeah, yeah, yes, it does feel like a bit of a stretch that there is. I looked. I mean, that didn't ruin

the movie for me. There was enough going on that you start thinking about these things because you're like, well I was, and here's the final to me, the nail and off I'm like, oh, so all that to say from the prosecution, I was like, well, yeah, he came home from the store and he stabbed his wife and she died, right, yeah, yeah, he doesn't come home and finally she's been dead for two hours. He's like, she's with a knife in her chest. When as

he gets home this all happened to Simon takes. We see Barry upstairs doing his math or whatever, and you hear that disturbance presumably the person who killed Nora, and then you see Hiter you're getting home at the exact same time, So that proves nothing that time, even if even if you have the exact time stamping him the store. In my opinion, right boy, that

would have been a real kicker of an ending. You're in that courthouse scene and you think we're ready for this triumphant moment of victory here and then the judge is like, well that's great, mister Allen, but that stuff anyway, I mean, I'm I'm sure people like, oh, just lit it go, man, I'm like, no, no, no, this is the crux of this thing, like, you know, the whole again, to use the TV show, it's like, yeah, you were home alone, the two of you, in the middle of the night, right,

there's no one else even around, Like the setup is you know, perfect for that like kind of misunderstanding, and you wouldn't understand why he would be like convicted of that. Right. Also, it was a night, which is way more likely than like in the middle of a Saturday afternoon breaking into in a nice neighborhood some random to assume, some random mugger just broke into their house and stabbed her in the chest with a knife and then just let

yeah did it. Well that's the other thing too, Or again it hasn't been it hasn't been that long. But maybe I'm already forgetting was it was the idea that when Henry came back, he somehow scared heard that, oh we heard my dad came home when you ran off. Yeah maybe, but you know, and again, I know we can keep referencing the Flash Show. But but it is true. It's like it's so recent, and I've been saying this, Um, there's with the emotional pieces of this, with

respect to Barry and his parents, there's nothing here. And again, especially when we get to that supermarket scene at the end that worked, I feel like that, you know, I was, I was. I felt that moment there, especially compared to everything else. But it's still nothing that the TV show didn't do first, or better or over a longer period of time. And then but now again going back to my friend riche like he barely watched the show. So when I'm like, the show didn't like that,

you know, like it doesn't really mean anything. So like that's why I keep saying. I do get why things would break differently for different people depending on where they're coming from with this. But as people who watched again at least those first couple of strong seasons of the show, you got a much a much more resonant version of this. Yeah, so all that, so this is the Flash right combook two and a half of the pillars of that are gone. Right. Wait, yes, and I'm sorry, I don't

mean, I don't mean to belabor why to keep eating up. But you know what it is because I think I get why it's bothering me so much, especially when we're talking about the television show. It's like, if there's another very recent example of a of another project like telling the same kind of story, if you're going to kind of you know, venture into the same territory, you need to make it better, add something, make it more interesting. They just took things away, and so it's just like it's like

kind of like bad Fling. To me, It's like you would think, okay, well, like we know where this show did this, Like well, but again that's why I'm saying I don't know that anyone involved like really gave any consideration to the fact that there was this decade long show with Grand Custin. Well take things away. You understand why the TV show had a very small scale flashpoint. I think, you know, if you look at the arrow verse, you're like, that's a missed opportunity. I don't understand

they had. They would have to coordinate a lot, but like have two episodes on each show where Robert Queen is the green Arrow or really lean into that, and they didn't. It was just like, oh, Diggle has a son now instead. Oh, and Cisco's brother's dead. Oh oh, and Caitlyn is the skill of Frost. Okay, but other than that, like what are the repercussions make time that I get so good? The great scene where Jay Garrett pulls him out and they're, hey, you're gonna keep

going back in time and fixing the stuff? You can't do this? Like where is that? Oh, anyway, we're gonna it's gonna go off on these stanges. But you're absolutely right. I understand the why the show. The show can't do one or one Zakaman of course, not show can't do Tom was wing Batman, of course, not the movie that's where you do it. And they didn't do any of that. And here we are, and we've we've established they've erased two and a half pillars of what the story

is supposed to be about. Yeah, they kept Barry getting electrocuted, which going back, but going back to that that comic when it first came out, this is a separate thing. But I you know, I was. I was a little bit put off by the impending new fifty two relaunched that was coming. So I don't know that I ever really gave flashpoint of fair shake because I was thinking more about what was what was coming. I've since made my piece with the New fifty two, but anyway, but I just

felt like it always. I wasn't the biggest fan of Barry at the time, I wasn't looking forward to the New fifty two, and I just remember like just being frustrated with the character and how absurd it was that he just keeps electrocuting himself, you know, until until he gets his powers back. But now it's just become this this pillar of the story where we're losing all this stuff. We still this guy still gets electrocuted repeatedly. Okay, well

that's a good thing. We haven't really talked about yet. Let's discuss this the two very alids. Right in retrospect, what a horrible idea to have two edzor Millers in this film. But I would even argue beforehand, why would you put two editors or Millers in this film? But I thought you were going too much. But everybody's least favorite Justice League member, I think because you look at that guy and you're like, this is not the very

album that I know. On the concurrent running Flash TV show to your point. You you're just describe him. But so there is a thing in Flashpoint where he shows up in a different timeline and he doesn't have his powers because he's never that makes sense. He changed the past, why would he be the flash anymore? All Right, so he has to have Thomas Wayne Batman

help him recreate the accident. Fine, great, great, but here they've mixed multiverse and timeline with that bubble spaghetti, which you know mentioned briefly. Are I honestly didn't hate that explanation. I was like, Okay, for what you're trying to sell us, I guess that's a good explanation as any.

It's it's far more of an explanation. And I thought they were going to give us because we were talking about this ahead of time, and I still laughed because I was it was pretty close to the movie coming out. I still clearly didn't know what this movie was about, because I watched and I just kept thinking it was just they were on another Earth, and then you were like, no, no, it's like it's still the same timeline.

And the reason why I was so initially confused was it was like, how on Earth with changing the events surrounding Nora's death lead to Michael Keaton being Batman. I just kept bumping up against that. And then I watched the trailers again. I was like, okay, like I get what we're doing here, but in no way that I think they were actually going to account

for this. And like I figured there would be some jokey throwaway line about this and that would be it. So the fact exactly so like the fact that they took the time to explain the fulcrum point and you change what came before and what came after. It's what I don't know why I watch it really tracks, but at least they did that. I know we've been very hard on the movie, but I do I did at least appreciate that. I agree. I found, like, you know what's it's a take on

on these things that we haven't seen before war. And that's saying a lot for something that we've seen hundreds of times across all multimedia and fiction. So this Barry's like, oh no, this is the day I got my powers. If you don't get struck by lightning right, then I won't have my powers, and I then I'll have don't have a future to go back to I'm like, okay, so we did the whole thing where he has to

get and this is a clever We're gonna get some credit here. We never saw the origin in the flash so we get to see that origin through this of him, you know, making himself go through the origin that he went through them we never saw. That's actually a very clever story thing did to show you this, right, but through the second Barrier getting the powers, the first Barry loses the powers. Like does that make sense? I don't know, but they had to. They wanted to keep that from flash point,

the Barry without the bars. And then I realized, oh, I'm the trailers we were seeing we're we were seeing the opposite Barry in the suit the whole time. You know, I didn't realize this. That was It's so funny. For as much as they gave away, and man did they give away, like all most all of it. I feel like it wasn't until one of the reviews. It might have been like the Variety of review

or something like that. There was a review I feel like that made reference to the fact that that Barry ends up powerless for a portion of the film, and it was one of the few things that would have been a surprise. That's the no, no stone left undered and so but that's that's the thing, like we have to keep this from thee the electrocution the twice, and I'm like, okay, whatever, but okay, you think this through. And then at the end, right, because he's like, oh no,

what happens to this Berry is going to affect me. So if this fault fell here, if this Barry doesn't get his powers, I'm not gonna have my power. So I gotta make sure he gets his powers. Okay, I follow that lodging. But then at the end of the movie, when it's revealed the dark Flash is the other Berry. When the Dark Flash is going to kill DCU Berry, the other Berry gets in the way and dies, therefore racing the your dark Flash, which like in the Flash season

one when Eddie than killed himself and E raised the reverse Flash. But then the DCU Berry is fine, it doesn't affect him at all. Why all right? So I don't I don't. I don't want to. I hate being in this position of like trying to defend or explain this movie because I like it doesn't deserve it. But the only thing when when Keaton Batman goes through that holes the whole spaghetti explanation and this idea that you're creating, you're

essentially creating the multiverse, right or tapping into the multiverse? Is it? Could it be the case that initially, when present Barry meets it past Barry, you know he's thinking of it really and more of that strict straight linear timeline, Mike, if you don't get your powers and I don't get my

powers. But then when we get this wider explanation of oh you're you're on another world now, the it's not not so much of that connection anymore, and you know, pass back or you know, the younger Barry can can die to prevent himself from becoming Dark Flash, but our Barry can then just jump to a different time. I mean, as I'm saying this, I'm like, I know this doesn't make sense, but I don't know. I don't I don't really know how else to account for this. And it's well,

your guys are nip picking. Like I like these things to make sense. That's why we talk about these things for hours, because I want to be able to like, oh, well, let me be like I have the Star Trek and Syclopedia on my show, for I like to understand that how these things work, right, So it's it's just a case of of them not thinking it through, I think, because but the whole thing was dark Flash created the paradox. He's the one that kicked Barry out of the

Speed Force into twenty thirteen to begin with. He's like, you like the paradox we created? Like, uh, I guess, Like, but how did you even get there to start that? Anyway? It was there's also I don't like Again, there's a lot about this that I really question.

And it's funny because we obviously are dealing with the multiverse, but not in as as much depth or in as meaningful a way as we probably all kind of assumed when before this movie came out and before we knew more about it, right, like this idea of I mean again, I guess when you when you? Because that's the thing here when you talk flash point, and that's clearly the jumping off point as much as they they're knocking down these pillars

left and right, but that's that's the inception point for this. That's not a multiverse story. It's a it's a timeline story, like he changes the timeline and then he has to change it back so here that piece of it is still there, But then you also have this whole multiverse component, and

I feel like they should have stuck to one or the other. And honestly, even though at this point now I think we all recognize all right, I think people might be kind of they might have reached the saturation point with all this multiverse stuff, but they probably should have just done a multiverse thing where he's bouncing around different world I feel like they would have had more fun, It would have been cleaner, and maybe it would have less to pick

apart. No, I that at least would have been like a fun romp through the multiverse right in the same I guess, And I think you know, I mentioned Multiverse of Matters earlier. I think people were expecting that, especially with a title like Multiverse of Madness, and they didn't quite get that, And I think that's where a lot of people's disappointment might be coming from. They did some they did very specific multiverse things, but then didn't really

jump through everything. But yeah, he's running through. He picks up Chris O'donald Batman and he gets um Grant Gustin and again, you know, I mean, it's just just this Hodge. But if I heard this was a celebration of all things DC on screen, and I'm like, that's more like that than than what this was. So yeah, I if you had to pick one, absolutely, Because I mentioned Star Trek a few times. As you may who listen to my podcast on He's Star Trek fan, there's certain

rules you do. Like one of the most famous episodes of Star Trek Digital series is The City on the Edge of Forever. It's when they go back in time and Kirk falls in love with a woman. We get saved by doctor McCoy. Turns out she was meant to die, and because doctor McCoy saved her, then the Earth one on this total slant in the America loss World War two, and it's so they had to let her die in order

to fix it. Then I'm like, Okay, well that's a timeline thing, so you gotta you gotta fix that, right, So they had to let her die, and it was a great episode and one of the most highly regarded episodes of Startregever. And it's a timeline thing. It's like we oh, gotta fix this, do that. Okay, we did, We're back. Great, that's timeline. Now another famous episode, mirror Mirror spot with a goatee. Everybody knows that one is some pop culture, right,

that's another universe. They don't. They don't go fix it and change in things to go back to where they were. They're like, oh, we were over here, now we're over there. Those are two very separate things, and they can serve their own purposes. But to your point, and to two points that we've been probably making this whole conversation, you can't make some together like that, or you gotta be careful what you do, or you end up with that big bull spaghetti. What's the parmer jant? Just

a garnish Yeah, that was a any life, um man. So we end up with three as a miller's at some point, which, um we don't need to go too much on this, but so annoying, like I didn't like when as a miller. I certainly didn't like two or three the whole like you all that stuff. It's just so and him realizing how annoying he was when he was younger doesn't make it okay. Like I guess they thought lamp shaded right. Oh, we're gonna address it. They see,

we do know what you guys don't like. We don't like it either. Then why are we spending so much time with him running around naked and doing

all these inserved things? Like I just I that's such wasted time. Like we could have had domas Wayne Batman and Wonder Woman fighting I'll Command for the fate of the world, but instead we have two annoying Barry Allen's And it was just a miscalculation, I think, and and I guess, I don't know like you think they you think that the Flash was some breakout character from Justice that everybody loved, and they decided to lean into that and have two

of them. But but then you know, all real world things aside, that's still a bad idea. Yeah, I mean again, especially like we say, I think there they ended up with this jumble of of timeline and multiverse. But to whatever extent this is a multiverse movie. It's like you know, and again, whether it was literally Grant Gustin or or John Wesley ship or just some another flash, I mean like something like you there's this vast well you can you can pull from. Again, we've only had so

many people actually play the character. But it's like you even if you're creating a new a new version or like something I will say in fairness to the studio, and again not that I feel like I need to defend them, but but when all of the Ezra Miller stuff was was coming out and there were all of these calls to you know, to to reshoot the movie and things like that. I mean, especially now seeing it, it's like they're

they're in every scene and then multiple characters. So it's like that would really not have been There's no way around it. There's no way right it. And you know that that's a great that's a great point there. That kind of rats back around and when we first started with like we were told that this movie's greatest common we've ever seen it. We have to we have to keep it. We have to see it. Like you guys will understand once

you see it, why we're so hot on this movie. I'm like, I Meanwhile, we just canceled Back Girl over here, So the precedent has been set to cancel movies. Guess what they would actually lost less money and they canceled this than what they're doing right now. It's insane. Not in a million years that I think this is to do as bad financially. I think I guess it was gonna make out another around like five hundred million worldwide

or something like that. It's gonna top out around three hundred million, like for real, which is insane, insanity, like these kind of movies just supposed to make that on opening weekend. So hindsight is twenty twenty. But we all know, we've talked about it in other conversations, and you all

have the internet, you can look it up. How many red flags did they blow through and red lights that just to push this thing through when they had every opportunity to stop it. Nick, you're right, reshooting just at that point it's too much. It's too much. But they they set a president by canceling back Roll, and they should have canceled this one. I'm

not saying only this one. I'm saying instead, I'm just saying, like you guys, clearly okay with canceling movies that start Michael Keaton as Batman. Here's another one. No, it's true. Look, and again I know we've talked on this, talked about this on our on our various shows.

But it's just on top of all of this, I think, again, I still maintain they just shot themselves in the foot by announcing guns plans before these moves another factory and and as much as and again I might sound like I'm arguing both ways here, it's like I do really wish he had just said this is going to be a clean break, but uh, you know,

that's that's not what we got. But there was. It's enough of a it's enough of a reboot that he's talking about where I think there is this sense of like, oh, like a lot of these movies don't matter, you know. What I was thinking about though, what I wish they would have done. I because especially now that we've seen two movies. Now we've seen Fury of the Gods and we've seen in This and both tanked.

And you know, I feel bad for Blue Beetle because it really does look fun and I like the actor, but I can't imagine that's going to like light things up, and I Aquaman. You shudder to think what Aquaman is going to do after this. But uh, you know, so now that we've seen that they've done poorly under the umbrella of hey, like we're we're going to be doing some different things where you a new Superman, new Batman, but you know, Ezra Miller might come or might come back, and

Galgado might come back. And it's very wishy washy at this point. I wonder if they would have been better huff just saying Okay, this really is the end, and what if they had done something where they had post credit scenes after each of these four movies that had some kind of tease for the gun Verse. Again, not that these not that these movies are connected, but it's just like, hey, some kind of like little thread over four

post credit scenes. I mean again, it'd be tough because like Superman Legacy is two years away, but I don't know anything like setting up fifty two A yes exactly, something like that where people are like, okay, you build this as hey, it's the farewell to the DCU butt a taste of what's to come, and you've got like this little tag at the end of each of each of these movies that builds towards something. No. I think

that's what it is. I think that the criticism of uh, oh, well, we announced all these movies that are coming out there aren't connect to these anymore. So no one cares about these and this is it. I understand that, and I agree to it with a certain to a certain point. But if if you that's like, that's like saying, hey, this is the last season this TV show, it was like, well why should

I watch it? Then would have wasted time. Like if you if you take your approach and say, hey, this is this is the last four, like go go see these the wrapping up the big DCU and it's a big finale, It's going to be great, right, um, At least that would have been an approach. And I think the problem that that I haven't you know that, I feel like others have. All James Gonna had to say was hey, we have four movies coming out this year. We

hope you guys enjoy them. These will be the last four of the DCU as you know it. And then in twenty twenty five return the page were launch with the new Superman Superman Legacy. He's written, directed by me. Hope you guys enjoy. We'll see you in a couple of years. Right, It's all you had to say, because he had nothing to do with

these. It's so funny that people like like, oh, James, God, there's not he had nothing to do with these movies, you know, but he attached himself to them by saying they were so amazing, especially the Flash. Obviously like Flash best movie he's seen all year, one of the greatest supermovies he's ever seen. I see the guy who's in charge of all DC movies moving forward say that about this film, and it does have me concerned. I agree. I would have vastly preferred if he said exactly what

you just proposed. It's like, okay, that's fine, Like, and I feel like we would have been more not that he needs to come out and apologize for the movie, but like if that's sort of we all know what's gone on. If he's sort of like, hey, like you know, I hope you enjoy like we did our belts, you know, but but we call that one wrong. Guys are bad. That would go That would go a long way for me, for sure, some self awareness. So it's just I feel like it's even more of an issue because he he

said nothing about Black Adam. And I know, obviously we had the power struggle at the time, and it was right as he was coming in. But but even Shazam. I know when he did that presentation, he spoke positively about it, but not like he hasn't yet taken the level of ownership of something like he did with Flash. And so I feel like that because

again it's not just like, oh, all these movies are great. It's like no, no, like you really went to bat for this one, right, and people said, well, what do you spect him to say, he's the head of DC Studios. Yeah, of moving forward, this movie, this movie was you know, we just went through the production history of it and it's should have been released two years ago. The pandemic and reshoots and as a Millery's situation that delated to now like this should have been

the last movie of them all. Yeah, it's you know, the psychology of this, that's fine. I took a class in the college. What

was it, like psychology of advertising or something like that. It was very interesting though, because you like, it's such a fine line with this, because you want to make people think this is so great right that they can't miss it, but they went they so overshot the mark here that it's like for I know, for you and you and me in particularly we've talked about this it's like, if you just tell people like this is the greatest thing

they've ever seen, you are setting an unrealistic expectation. And as much as I know there are some folks who watch this and genuinely felt it was the best superhero movie, that's great. Clearly, now we've gotten more of a sense of the audience's reaction and that's that doesn't seem to be the consensus. So yeah, it's And the other thing, too, is to your earlier

point, went back to No Way Home. It's like, you know, you you'd set photos of Andrew Garfield and told me mcguarre and to the nighted release, they're like, they're not in the movie, but it created enough of that mystique where you're like, you're ninety nine you're ninety nine percent sure they're in the movie, but it's like you don't know until you see it.

And here again, between the hype and all those screens and everything they gave away, like they just went in the complete opposite direction they and again it's easy to say in hindsight, but yeah, maybe they should have made more of a mystery. Well, they they wanted it to succeed, so because they needed it too, because this is a very expensive movie. I mean, I think the budget that the reported budgets like two two hundred twenty

million, it's it's more than that. Let's be real. But like with advertising, let's just let's be generous and say budget and advertising three hundred million. It's not even going to make that back. I mean that's like and you know, and I think, what's spun on us talking about this all the time? Now. I was on your your Patreon show on the day that the James Gonna announcement and and you know, we should do that again when we have the next announcement. That'd be atably a lot of fun.

And I said on your show, I'm like, what happens to these don't do well? Like well, two down, two to go for the DCU. Now, I think Superman Legacy will happen. We've had casting announcements and whatnot. Now, of course, we had casting announcements for super Man Lives back in ninety eight, so you never know. But this entire slate that that we've been presented by James Gunn I think if I were them, but who knows how they think, I'd be like, yea, let's just let's

take it one movie at a time. Guys, maybe we should do that. Maybe because this this is great. That to plant your flag and that's that's why I'm talking about this. To plant your flag in this and say this this is great. Um. That causes me, an audience member, to assume I'm going to get more of this from you who loves this, So we'll see. So we we've talked a lot about the history of this movie. We've talked a lot about like the flashpoint story comparisons. We're actually

going pretty long. We didn't know how long this is going to be. So but we can't. We can't sign off here without talking about the Superman in the room. This is erman special after all. So if you have a few minutes, Anthony wee can oh. I would have missed this for anything. So the Superman element. Let's let's bounce off from this, right. We were talking a lot about the Flashpoints story. Into the Flashpoints story

projects Superman. There's time travel shnanigans have and then you know in the combos to be fair, it works past in future as well, right, because so you know, him saving his mom ripples backwards in time. Superman Spaceship callous spaceship does not crash in small Vild. It's not found by the cancer. Crash is a metropolis. It's a big meteor strike is the public nose and causes some devastation and stuff. Reminds me a small Ville actually when you

put it that way. But he's captured by the government presumably kept you know, a prisoner by them for you know, for you know, the thirty years or however long it's been, right, and so it's a big thing, like because the Flash. And Barry's like, we gotta find Superman right in the you know, in the in the comic and in this movie, we gotta find Superman. He because Odd's here and Clark, Clark's the best

of us. Clark, Clark's the one, Clark's the only one, the only one they can stop Zod. So that they spend this whole movie talking about I'm gonna find Superman. And Batman's like, ipe you find Superman and then you're on the road and embarrassing, we gotta find Superman. Barry's just playing the other Barry like, yeah, Superman came, and you know, um, but he created a world. There's no Betty humans, no Betty humans, Superman's an alien. But anyway, I just that line annoyed me

because it was in every Trailerman's not a betty human. So we're cyborg by the way, still a football player, and we we understand why Civary's on the film. But this movie much like Terminator two. If you look at Terminator two right and ruined by the marketing as well, but I get it. But like if you look at Terminator two on its own in isolation, like your friend there probably experienced it this way. You see that movie, you think, arlods Soortioninger is the bad guy again, and you think the

human quote unquote is Robert Patrick and he's the good guy. There, no no. When it comes down to John Connor in that hallway with a pepsig machine, you know, in the back of the mall, Arnold's like get down, and he shoots the other terminator and that's when you know that he's the hero. I'm like, whoa, we're changing things up. The movie is constructed to make you think that way. That because he's the one beating people up and the two one thousand is a cop anyway, narratively, that's

how that's created. And of course the marketing, you know, did what it did with Arnold being the hero. This time, I get it. This film, this film narratively makes you think we're gonna go get Supermad, right and in a vacuum that would have been cool. Right man, We're gonna get Superman. I can't I can't wait to see the reverse Captain America, Chris Evans. They're gonna do on Henry Cavill, right, because we haven't seen Herey Cavil the whole time. Right there, you see you saw

him on a screen once, so stopping a volcano right little day. We know this is the same. This is from the studio that brought you Headless Sugre Cavil and shadow Henry Cowell. And you get back of Henry caval on a TV screen, which again I'll go on record as I have many times. I don't mind it in Shazam the first one, but after that it's too far. So it's like it builds us anticipation for Superman, right, and I'm the natural payoff is you're gonna see Superman. And I'm singing to

myself, like, man, like it'd be so cool. They really we're gonna get Superman. But I'm waiting the whole like an hour and a half. I'm waiting. I'm like, well, they're not gonna get Superman because he's not in the movie. I know this because they've been promoting the hell out of Supergirl, which I don't know if the Ezra Miller real world situations

have been different, would they have promoted Supergirl this way. Anthony as like the star of the film, because they've leaned so heavily in her and Sasha Calais, and I obviously understand why. But because of that, like it's not a surprise or anything. You know, it's Supergirl, but the fact of the characters were like, we're gonna go get Superman, then they don't. It really changes your perception of when it happens, I think, and that that kind of clouds how I might have taken it otherwise. No,

I agree totally. And because that's the thing. There's there's all this talk of Clark, and so it's it's creating this this setup. And again, if it had actually been Clark, or even if it hadn't been Clark who was being held but then he showed up later, then you get a really cool payoff. Or if you've kept Supergirl a secret, then it's like,

okay, then it's this twist. You have set up an expectation for Superman and you're giving a Supergirl And I was like, okay, but here they let all the air out of that balloon by by promoting her and everything. And to your question, I mean, yeah, I have to imagine that

Esra Miller thing shifted things significantly on the Supergirl marketing front. I feel like they still would have leaned heavily on Michael Keaton naturally, but yeah, if Ezra Miller didn't have all of these headlines and had been able to do interviews like like anyone else who's promoting a movie, yeah, then I don't know. But I don't know though, because it's like they still this situation obviously got a lot more dire for them with but the Ezra Miller of it all,

But it's like it still wouldn't have been a great situation. I feel I don't know that they would have held that back. Honestly, I feel like there's a chance, but I don't, like, I don't think there's really any feeling at the studio And look, you look at the Wonder Woman cameos spoiled in in the commercial for Fury of the Gods, where it's like, I don't think there's anyone there at this point right now who's like, well, we have to preserve the viewing experience and we want the audience to

be surprised. Me. I think it's just we anything we can do to get people to buy a ticket and show. So I think I still think they would have given it away. I don't think they would have leaned as heavily on the actress or the character. But I I'm hard pressed to be like, no, no, no, they would have. They would have preserved that surprise for the audience. I doubt it. What do you think?

I don't know, Like, and I go to No Way Home, and I'm like, you had total McGuire and Andrew Garfield in the film for a very significant amount, Like I think I think Andrew Garfield and Total McGuire in No Way Home more than Sasha Calaier is in the Flash. I would think, so, I mean, I would have to crunch the numbers. But no, you know, she and I liked her a lot in this. I liked her a supergirl, but yeah, she has you know, she's very little to do. Those are my people. Oh he killed the

general, all right, I'll help you guys like that. You know that was that Swanwick he killed my showman hunter? Um no. And then she comes back and gets him lightning, Like how does she know to do that? I feel like there's some stuff cut or whatever, but you know I heard all this stuff, like, look, she's she seems great. She's

very enthusiastic about it. Right, she's at these screenings, and look, this is her first big project, right, And I feel so bad for her that, like she got saddled with all this stuff and and she was fine. Like I don't have a I liked her, but I don't have a strong opinion because she was barely in it. And then she has no ending. She dies much like Miake Wickens Batman dies one hundred times. And and then because they deleted the ending with Michael Keaton Sasha Kali coming back,

those characters having to win. At least Keaton's Batman has that end. At least they gave him that sad piano music. But she just disappears. Hey, I'll give him credit here. I was like, Oh, they're gonna have Supergirl kills Odd and no One, and people would think it's fine, you don't have to have that argument online for the rest of our lives. But they didn't. They like, hey, you know what, they did need Superman because she could not defeat him. But I perspected that decision.

Yeah, that's fine. You know again, I don't the Snyder pieces its own, its own thing, and I don't want to get too into that, but but I do have feelings about them treading on Man of Steel's ground, not like it's sacred ground that can't be touched. But but at the same time, given given the path that we all went down, and that that Snyder experience with the studio and everything, and how so much of you know what it is, so much of what they've done has been a clear

attempt to pivot away from the Snyder stuff. It's like, nah, you don't get to use Man of Steel like this that actually really did bother man. It's like we go back to to the you know, to the invasion of Metropolis and you know, the whole thing with you know, Barry saving that one kid and all. Yea, this is to me the that Man member returns Man is steal for you it's like, what are you doing? Like you if you don't do it right, It's like, hey, you

remember Zod? You like Zod? Yeah, and there I did, But what is he doing here? I know? I feel yeah, absolutely, And that's the thing I think that points to, you know, sadly, a failure in this shared universe they've been trying to build. It's like, what other I mean, I'm like quickly trying to scancer the movies, like what other event could you even? Well, if you did, if you did Justice League, you'd have to pick a lad on which version. So

they don't want to do that. The death of Superman, Doomsday, Yeah, I mean, those movies gave us the you know, these big moments, but it's just, yeah, there's something about that, and you know, we talked about this. I very much like that, you know, Michael Shannon asked for Snyder's blessing, you know, before doing this, and that's very classy move. But yeah, no, I just that there's that piece of it too where it's just like, I don't know, I didn't

love that they were kind of reopening that. I mean, it's fine, it's I'm not offended by it, right, No, I am by a certainly understand what you're saying, because I mean, you all this is like, well, let's get away from that. But do you remember this, right? I mean you can't you can't have both ways. But you can't. You can't do a spiritual cousin to Jos's league but didn't go inside Man

of Steel. But they had this it's a love letter, but Zach, it's a love letter to everything, so you can do whatever you want. And we're, oh, yeah, we're almost there for that. Oh my gosh. But like they had this back to the future thinking of like, oh, everybody was back to the future too, where they going to the first move round? Like this is not that, y'all. This is not that at all. This is because because it'd be like if Marnio Fly wasn't in the future too, do you go back to the first one? It

was weird that they made care of the Codex and not Kell. Oh it doesn't makes sense, right, yeah, why would why would Jarrell make care of the like this trying to think of comparisons of like in this world, right, like okay, with Dark Knight rises, we understand why the Joker's not there. Heath Ledger's dead right, it's a tragedy. We understand there was talking maybe we'll recast him, but no, you know, no one

was friends with He's ledger and like we gotta move on. We gotta just move on from the Joker, right, we understand it's not possible for the Joker to be part of that. For this, we have Henry Kell here, like, I am back a Superman. I can't wait to come and

reprise my role. And then it's like, yeah, but this it's it was almost like Henry Kevill had died before this movie came out in Anthony, like the way The Superman was treated, you know what I mean, Yeah, I mean that's like that's the thing, and I know there's all this business bat there were three different endings and he was you know, from Little Thing for one of them, but obviously that got cut. But but still he was there was it doesn't seem like there was any iteration of this where

he was really featured artist movie. Yeah, and yeah, it's such an odd it's so odd that we have deceased actor and I know we're getting to this, but like we have deceased actors cgi you know, you know, digitally recreated and yet you have a live actor who you know. Again, regardless of people's feelings about the Snyder stuff, people generally seem to like him

in the role. And it's just it's weird to build so much of the movie around the events of Man of Steel, the villain from Man of Steel, the cousin of Superman, have all these references to Clark, and he's absent. It's just like, why, I don't understand, especially see now getting fired ups, like especially knowing how divided this fandom is. It's like, why are you just inviting this, Like, just do something different.

I It's I don't know, it's it's just so baffling to me. But it's like his look, Cavil and Gustin and I'll go out throwing ship too, because I know how much you love the Nine defen But it's like those those those three, I mean, they feel like such glaring omissions that this movie, this kind of movie, but this movie itself specifically beg for them, and and they're just completely omitted. It's so odd to me. Well, Andy Machetti has said that no character was off the table for them to

use in their multiverse sequence at the end of the film. Which let's leave arrived there. Let's let's tack it. You know, I mentioned like it's it's as if Henry Cavill had died, well, that would not have stopped him from putting him in the movie, because we have CGI, George Reeves, CGI, Christopher Reeves, CGI, Helen Slater who's still alive by the way, CGI, Nicholas Skates who's still live by the way, CGI, Adam West and CGI. We thought it was Teddy Sears, but I guess

it's just some amalgamation of a black and white looking Jay Garrick. I think you might have said this, or you might have posted this, or it came out I had to have been someone. They were like, oh, we need Jay Garrick and like someone right, and he's talked about this right like on someone like put a helmet on some guys. Well, we all assumed it was Teddy Sears, like who else would it be? I know, we all and then he did an interview a TV line and he was

like, no, it wasn't me. They thought, oh, wow, the fans are gonna love this, like and boy were they wrong. Like, I don't understand how they thought this was gonna like like me, Christopher Reeve is like the gold standard and for a lot of people as Superman, right, how is just just like, hey, here's a PS two version of your favorite Superman waving around and doesn't do anything, you know, like just looks at the universe anything that just crashes in the Nicolas Cages universe.

But then when Reverse Flash excuse me, dart Flash dies, they unconverged, so I guess they're fine. I don't know how am I? Why am I supposed to like that? Like, I don't you know? That's the ultimate I know what that is the Leo Nardo DiCaprio mean pointing at the thing, right, Yeah, that was I'll try to keep this short, but it's one thing to not like a movie or not like something in a movie like Fury of the Gods is a good example. I think they just took

the wrong lessons from the first movie. They overshot the mark, they lost sight of the heart of the character, and neglected the human you know, the younger side, Billy and all that stuff. Right, But at the same time, I wasn't like offended by the movie. I saw where they went astray, and it was unfortunate because I really like the first one. But it is what it is. But I look at this this there were a couple of things in this movie that I was offended by, and I,

you know, I'll get on with my life. But the baby in the microwave at the beginning was one, and and this this was another one. You know, for a variety of reasons. But it's just like, to me, it just feels like such poor taste to to bring actors who have passed back like that. And I talked about this in my episode, and that was another listener was like, well, you know, they the Reev estate gave their their permission and I think they they said like both like

the Reeve and Reeves estates. George Reeves, as far as I know it, I don't think there is an estate to speak of. So it's a very thing that that's a big reason why we haven't seen George Reves in comic books or anything since, because it's a very vague. Because I understand it. The rights, yes, and with Christopher, even even if I don't dispute, I'm sure the family, I'm sure that you know, they did sign off on that, but I don't know. To me, And this

is it's a personal thing. It's a matter of taste and people feel differently. But I just feel like it's like so ghoulish to like bring them back, especially when to be clear, I'm not saying they shouldn't be represented, but you just use clips like there are other ways to represent them. And then there are live actors who I'm sure, but you know, poor Brandon

Rauth. It's like this guy, I'm sure we would like jump at the chance, and he's played essentially playing that version of Superman and recently did it and was people loved it. So it just feels like, why did you feel like this was the only thing you could do. It's it's so strange because, I mean, we didn't know what the speed Force is gonna look like. We got into this movie and the speed Force looks terrible, but you know what, it's supposed to look terrible according to that directory mean,

that's the thing. Like it's like, oh, yeah, we know it looks weird. But here's why. I'm like, y'all, y'all this clearly this is supposed to be photo realistic, and I don't know what point they decided, you know what, let's just leave it. Um. It's the Uncanning Valley to the High Street. We see Henry cavill in there fight the Justice League, right, yeah, that's that's our own own facial shot at

him. It's funny because I either talked or posted about this, and if or maybe it was in the episode of My Guest was like, oh, like you see him in that thing, and it's like, sure, but I don't, like, I don't it's funny. And again the last time I'll issue this disclaimer because I want to be a broken record here, but again, like for people who watch that Multiverse sequence and you just you loved it, that's great, but I don't even like, I can't even count

those as cameos. I don't know. That's not a cameo. That's that's a CGI representation of something like cameo. Was like, oh, and nicool, have they brought in Brandon Ralph to fill in the blank? Right? That's yeah, Like we didn't know what I guess My point was we didn't know what the Speedforce are gonna look like. So I am I thinking like, oh, he's gonna be running through and we'll see some stock some altered stock footage, much like in the Flash TV show. I know I'm a

broken wrecker. Now keep talking about the flasht TV show. But when he's going through the multiverse, you see, you saw John weston ship, you saw super Girl, right, MILSI an oist, you saw Legends Tomorrow, Green Arrow, like, you saw different things, right, So like that's

that's what you could have done. Or I thought, oh, if you're gonna recraim through CGI, maybe there's gonna be a big battle, right, And they all come through a portal, and then I would understand like, oh, well, yeah, of course you gotta have CGI Chris Reef flying

around over there. But then when they kind of zoom him for the close up at stop footage and then and then who knows, right, they're sort do something, but they just the bare minimum of like the PS two versions of these characters show up, look at each other, and then go away, and it's like, why did why do we? Why even do this? Why invite this controversy? If you're gonna do this? And part of me is like I want to chicker the egg did they? Like? Could

they not get these CGI versions looking good? So they decided to make the whole speed for us look bad. So it's consistent. I don't know, but it's um, I did not like that at all. I was face pauving during that. I was like, this is what you think I want as a fan. You could not be further off. That's my opinion. Like you said, if people loved it, I wish I did too, But I just that's not what I'm looking for at all. Like like you failed on every fancer, you failed him, Like look, you feel just

freef He's failed on all this. Yeah, and look, I mean not to get into but with George Reeves too, and the nature and circumstances of his death, it's like, I, you know, I I don't know. I just again, I feel it came out the day that he the day that he died. Oh did it? Yeah? That was another headliner there. It's like woof. You know, I agree. I like the way they did it in in the flash, but but also, uh, you've probably if you didn't watch the show, you've probably seen the clip by

this point. But the end of Doom Patrol where Beast Boy has his journey through the multiverse, Grant Gustin running through Grant Gustin. He didn't even know he was in it, but he was. They you know they use the footage and it's like that to me is the ideal way to do this, where you're using clips from various projects. But then he would occasionally get pulled into the world, right, and then like he went to the Stargirl world

and the actress will play Stargirl was there? Yeah, that's perfect that Chris isn't all the Batman thing I was talking about. Have that happened for two minutes? That would have been interesting interesting? Oh and then your imagination can take you wherever you want to go with that and instead of like, hey, look it's cgi Adam West running around. Did you guys hear the joker laughing? Do you like that? Yeah? Yeah, okay, And as

has I know this has been arguabent. It's but it's like, also, too's okay if no hero is Nope, characters off the table and you're just going to render them digitally anyway? Why why did you stop there? I mean for Linda Carter's Wonder Room. We just didn't have time time. Wait are you talking about these? Are? These are thirty seconds each? And I'm sure they thought, Pam, they're gonna love this. And when I read the reviews talking about it's a celebration of all things DC on film.

I know this is what they're talking about. Can I disagree? I do too. Look the Nick Cage thing that that might break my heart the most because I don't know if that was kind of the best one of them. I guess relatively. Yeah. I mean, we definitely at least spent the most time there and it was the most substantive. But I guess what, So what breaks my heart about it is, you know, you I went back and forth of not really knowing was he there? Was he not there?

But then there was you know, uh an interview where they talked about like he came in, he was in the costume. It's like, I guess they filmed him or scanned him and then they just siege hied him to hell because they wanted to make him look like he would have looked in the late nineties of Superman Lives had come out, and it's like, Okay, I get it, and look at this point, everyone in the Speed Force

or the multiverse is going to have this look anyway. So it's like whatever, But it's like I would have loved to have just seen him just like in the suit for real. I don't care that he's older now, Like, that's fine. I could you could have just a little little touch up on him, a little the aging touch up, and just let him be an older version of that Superman. That would have been fine. But I guess it was the most interesting because we don't know how that was supposed to

look. Yes, you know, so that I supposed And as much as I've been dunking on it, the idea of seeing christ Reevee Hill and Slater together, I like that because that was supposed to be the case yes on the Supergirl movie instead of just the poster we got in that film. But yeah, yeah, man, like just epic fail across the board as far as I'm concerned with that, And uh yeah, that that's that's your Superman,

you know, like the Superman special. We're talking about the Flash Year and then it doesn't even you know, they Cavil film that thing at the end of the Galagha dot is like they were showing up their civilian clothes to meet up with this middle ground. Like Okay, well we'll keep Michael Keaton, but we're gonna add Henry Cabell and Galaghadad and we're gonna do what Black

Adam versus Superman. We're gonna do Wonder Woman three, And like I would, as frustrating as some of these films are, I would one hundred percent been on that course at this point just to kind of like okay, because I always I go back to the X Men movies and for how far they went back and forth, like the qualities all over the map, but they stayed the course, and that gave it is for as bad as X Men origins Wolverine was, Look, we got Logan, we got Days of Future

Past, we got X Men first class, right instead of just this is reboot it all store about it. And that's what DC has been doing. And they've been you know, this is where we are and just go going out with a whimper man like that's why. That's why I said. And then and then the end, Oh my god, the end, God's sake, the end. They decided. And I heard there have been rumors about

George Cuney forever. Yeah, and they were true. Buddy, he shows up and didn't even shave pulled a Harrison Ford from Ris of Skywalker, just walked in from wherever else he was doing. And oh, Barry, it's me. He's like I did like the who the F is this guy? That was? That was? That was? I mean we all felt that way, right, But then that gag of it, his toothfalls out, and that's the note we in the movie on again just you know, well again tone when it comes to these movies, that's its own thing too.

But yeah, I mean it's it's again like when I say I prefer the Snyder stuff, I do. Look, yes, those are more serious movies, but I do feel like they are over leam as characterized as like it's just like relentlessly grim. I really don't think that's necessarily the case, but whatever the whatever, however people feel about it. I yes, I do like when these characters are taken seriously, not that there can't be any levity, but I do like that, you know, I want to see them

treated with with some weight and with respect and self respect. Yet and again, I feel too, it's like it's the tone throughout. I mean, there's so many instances you could point to, but again, whether it's the tooth falling out here or in that post credits thing, it's just like the notes that you're ending on. You know that that leaves leaves viewers with a

certain feelings. So it's one thing, Okay, you have some humor and whatnot throughout, but when that's kind of what you're leaving us with, I don't know. I just I don't personally care for that takeaway. I will say my dad he loved when George Clooney show. He's like, just George Clooney. I don't know. It's funny because like I prepped him a little bit before the movie because I want him to be lost, although he's seen some of them, and but he's also sometimes prone to like talking during the

movie and I wanted to I don't I don't want any of that. Or we were also at an Alamo Drafthouse, so you know they're yeah. So I was like before it started, I was like, all right, like this is just the basic setup and I didn't spoil anything, but I was like, you know, it's a multiverse, so there might be times where we're seeing people who have been like another project something like that. But yeah, like when George Clooney came up like he he thought it was you know,

he loved it. He the post credits thing with Arthur Fallen Dale. He thought that was funny. So it's like it's working for some people. Yeah, it's working for some people. And it's like, whether my dad or my friend Rich, it's like, I'm glad they enjoyed it, but h and I also hate to be whether it's in conversations with them in person or or or on this podcast or on my own, it's like, I really, I don't I don't like being this in this position pointing out everything

I dislike. But uh, it's just this was just shoved in our faces and you know, and it just oversold to us, so I feel like it's it's kind of justified, and uh, yeah, I don't know, it's Um, I really did feel strong. I felt I had more of a reaction to the movie than I thought I would. Like you were saying at the top of this, it's like I my assumption going in was that i'd be like, all right, like it's clearly not as good as everybody's saying, but I think it's fine. Yeah. I really had a stronger

reaction to it than I thought I would. Yeah, and then that leads to us to have these two and a half hour conversations. No, but yeah, of course studios are going to say they're great, they're this, they're that, and I thought, you know, yeah, like I said many times, you've heard like Lance was like I don't like this movie. I don't want it. It's a bad idea. They shouldn't do it. I'm like, we're gonna go see this, and I'm gonna have to be like, you know, I get why you feel a bit, but look

at this and look at that. I'm like, no, I didn't. There's no need for me to argue with you with these things. So yeah, I don't want to sit here and be like, oh man, this is bad and that was bad, and this bad and that was bad. Like we love The Way Home enough that we started a podcast on my Patrejon of like we're like, you know what, we love this so much. We're gonna do the MCU because I'm still hyped and they did such a great

job and like I want to, I'm chasing that high man. We always are as fans, and I don't know how I feel about the future of DC films moving forward. We'll see their own probation as far as I'm concerned. We got a couple more movies and then we got Superman Legacy coming up, and I'm of course reading for it to be good. I hope that it is. I hope it's enough of a break, you know, I guess because it's July twenty twenty five, allegedly, you know, that's the

official date. So that's a year and a half between Aquaman and Superman Legacy. That's too soon, that's I mean, if I'm with them, I would shut it down, do a hard reboot. Everything's a clean slate, because when you that's the danger. And we talked about this and when we announced everything, when you have the people they're already working on this stuff, continue to work on it in the rebow, that doesn't that's not how it

works. Like people are gonna. I don't know. The audiences have rejected this clearly, So why are they gonna Why would they go see the Superman movie from the same guy who said this was the best movie ever. I don't know. Maybe I don't know. I like yourself, I always wish for the best, like you want these things to do well. And I think one of the reasons we get so fired up about it is that, you know, we do care, and we have a lot invested in these

characters been following them. And also even though I guess it feels like there there are all these versions and you know, you have you know, we've we've gotten all of these different projects. That that's true, But at the same time, it's like there are only so many bites at the Apple, especially you know, for a period of time. So it's like it took a decade to get a flash movie. Yes, we had the TV show,

but it's like a decade to get a flash movie. Now after this, I mean, I don't know how how soon will we see another flash movie? Go go ask your friend and green Lander he'll tell you, yes, exactly, you know. So that's the thing. So it's like when something comes out like this, and then you know, you kind of consider what the you know what the what the long term thing and look, as Superman fans, even for us, especially for us, like you can you

can only feel so secure. I agree. I think Superman legacy will happen. But it's like we've seen lengthy hiatuses between Superman movies, so it's not like, oh, no matter what, every couple of years, there's going to be a Superman movie. No, there might not be, So we want to make sure that they get them right so we can see more because because we love it, we have our own episodes. We've talked about this before and I hope that everyone to enjoy this conversation, agree, disagree,

fall somewhere in between. Thank you for taking your your time. Hopefully this got you through your your work day or how or else you're you're listening to this, and uh and always fun talking to you, Anthony. And we have some epic long conversations. But if people want to find you and your

podcast was similarly epically long conversations, where can they find you? I have to say, though, I think it's I think it's a combination of the two of us, because my episode on The Flash was like an hour and forty so, but now I always enjoy talking with the I always appreciate the opportunity, so thank you, so yeah. So Digging for Kryptonite a Superman fan journey, and my George Reeves Adventures a Superman rewatch podcast called another Exciting

episode. You can get both of those wherever you get podcasts, or watch us on YouTube. And Digging for Kryptonite has social media handles on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram, Twitter in particular, I would say, you know, feel free to connect there at Digging four kr pod and we cover Superman across time and media, so it's it's really you know a lot of deep dives and we cover a lot, and it's been fascinating as a Superman fan and to kind of share that with the audience. So I thank you in

advance for anyone who checks it out. And then yeah, if you know clearly you like a Superman rewatch podcast, because he listened, Always hold on to Smallville, I know, Adventures a Superman. You know, it's not in the conversation as much these days, but it should be. And so it's been a lot of fun to go back. And Zack's been on a couple, including a very recent one, the Human Bomb, which was a ton of fun. So I hope people will check that out too. It's

been fun to get some of these conversations on microphone. Here about the flash, I think we're gonna turn the page. We're gonna do with the DC. You should do, turn the page, get back to talking about other things. Stay tuned for more Superman stuff coming up, and until next time,

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