Episode 207 - 10x11 Icarus

Hey, this is Alisander Giuliani, doctor Emil Hamilton on Smallville and you are listening to Always hold on to Smallville. Enjoy. Welcome to Always hold On to Smallville. In this podcast, we talk about each and every episode of Young Superman Show. They were from two thousand and one to twenty eleven on the WB and the CW. I'm her host Sach Moore, and I'm joined by the hosts of the All Star super Fan podcast, Rob O'Connor, Hello, glad to be back, and Alan.

Burke, glad to be back. Too great to see is ech.

I don't think I've had you both on at the same time before.

We did an episode of Always Held On to the Flash together. I think that's right.

Was the Flash? It was the Flash, yes, But as far as Smallville goes, I think just for various scheduled reasons and whatnot, I had you both at the same time in the same place.

So actually I'm supposed to be on the last episode I was on, and there was a last minute work thing or something, wasn't.

There, Ellen, there was, that's right, Silver Ranchi episode. Yes, that was it. That was good, that was it, and yeah it was figured out. She wasn't even Irish though, Alan, so.

She wasn't even Irish. That was a great episode. I enjoyed listen to it. Yeah, I got caught up work, I was, I was heartbroken. But yeah, no, that that was a great episod.

I want to have you both on here in the final season of Smallville. Listen. I do a lot of podcasting. I listened to a lot of podcasts, and one of my favorite other Superman podcasts is y'all's podcasts, So I always enjoy whenever it drops in my feed. I'm like looking forward to these guys have to say. Also, your podcast is very long, much like mine, so it makes it feel good that other people talk for two and a half hours about.

This nonsense, sometimes longer.

Yeah, I mean for me. I mean for me. I'm talking about a forty five in episode for two hours, which is ridiculous, And you guys are at least talking about a lot of things over two and a half hours. So there you have it. But we're here in Smallville season ten. Rob let's start with you. Just do you ever think about Smallville season ten? But he doesn't even when you think of small Ovil season ten, what do you think of what are your thoughts of it?

When I think of Smallville Season ten, I think of the ending, obviously, the final episode of the much discussed final episode, one of the most disclosed episodes of the of the whole series, I would wager, and one of the most screen grabbed episodes of the of the whole series, because it has the shirt ripping. I also think of the thriller jacket and how much I hate it. Yes, and I usually and I think it's something that's gonna

Those middle five seasons, that middle half of the show. Yes, yeah, oh no, I hear you there. I mean obviously I was there the whole time, but other shows I've watched, I too have jumped on at the end, like, oh well, I got to see how this all turns out. So I'm going to tune into the last season, So sometimes the last episode, but sometimes the last season time allowing So I feel that. But alan about you Smavel season ten.

It does? Similar to Rob, I had come back to watching it at that point. I had kind of phased out of it around season six, seven eight, Like Rob, that's kind of a blank to me. A lot of those episodespecial when we go back and watch them now. But I knowing that it was the final season and we're going to finally get a conclusion, I ventured back to small though, and for the most part, I really enjoyed it. Again. Like Rob said, the finale is the thing that sticks out in my mind, and how disappointed.

No, I don't know what you're talking about.

I haven't revisited as I. As I said last night, I actually had to remove the plastic covering on my Season ten DVD, which I purchased at the time in twenty eleven, twenty twelve, whenever that came out, because I bought the single seasons as they as they came out, even the ones I hadn't been keeping up with. When I saw them in a Golden discs or whatever, I'd go in and pick them up so i'd have n't

I should stress, by the way, the reason I hate the trailer jacket is less to do with the local the jacket, which it does kind of look cool like it's and it's a fun thing you can wear conventions and stuff. I don't have a huge issue with that. It's more just.

The idea of it.

Like, once he puts on that jacket, he is basically Superman. So what's the point of the show.

Then? Yeah, you know, no, I I have seen many a jacket like that at a convention. It's it's a great item. People love it. I I don't think i'd ever get with myself, but I understand the appeal. And you know, I have a I've said on calling it the monogram jacket because lowest cause of that in an episode, and I'm like, there you go. If anyone says anything on screen, I can latch onto. I'm like, that's what we called it. I was calling the biker jacket before

I knew you were gonna say yes, Oh I yeah, I'd say it. And there's a reason I'm asking this, I'd say it's not that many times. Yeah, Like I there was even scenes in this episode where I was like, why is he not wearing his uniform? You know, like, and I remember thinking that at the time, And I remember thinking about the trench coat in season nine as well, that there was a lot of times where it was like, he should be in his superhero suit right now and

Okay, I'm going to say.

Twelve okay, well, well hold on, are we guessing the whole season?

Now?

Are we guessing just the first half?

Oh? Sorry, the whole season? I was guessing.

No, no, no, yeah, yeah no this half half?

We half this half, i'd say four.

Okay, yeah, i'd say six.

Well five, so you're if you add your score as a team, you win. You're correct. We're we're five. And half of those has just been him standing around. Yeah, because like the episode he premieres ind it in he walks out on top of the Deli Planet, stands in from the American flag. It's a great image, right.

Uh.

Then we see it next he's at his father's grave talking to him. I would question why he would visit Jonathan Kent's grave in his superhero costume, but that's, you know, neither here nor there. He does wear it for a little bit of superhero activity a couple of times, and then he wears it here again, just like at a funeral. So it's like, dude, like, what do you if no

So I just never I just I don't think I ever really connected with the black long jacket because it always just felt me even at the time that it was very kind of matrix y and Bled doesn't love the matrix. But it's not Superman.

But he's not Superman. That's the whole point, Like he's on a journey to become Superman, and the whole point of this season as well is he has to overcome the darkness, and that's the darkness within him as well. And by putting on his jacket at the start of the season, it's like, well then that makes the whole character arc of the season irrelevant anyway. So it's like it would have made.

One of those I'm sure we're all in one of those black men the jacket paces like when we're teenagers. I find out, I know what I did.

I Actually, the more I think about it, the more I wish he had worn the black trench cout all the way up until the end of season ten, where right fully banishes that look and then becomes Superman. Because it's such a contrast, whereas this kind of half measure it just never never made sense to me.

You don't need multiple transitional costumes, as my what I'm thinking. And also if you look at the season t in opening credits that black jackets all over it trench call here there, you would never know that he did have a different costumes. Anyway, I just since you Broth brought it up, I wanted to address it. Now. We don't talk about any further real quick before a jump into within. Just as Society characters, they're all over this episode. We get some hawk Man, we get some star Girl, we

I liked them. I always kind of felt that they seemed a little bit kind of cheap, which is fine. Look, it's it's of its time and it's of its era, and you know, they have whatever budget they had and stuff. I always but I always kind of felt that even

Is this the guy from Stargate Q, Starget se Sequest.

Yes, that just dates me right there.

The captain from Sequest twenty thirty is Lois's dad, Micha Ironside.

So yes, and but yeah, I enjoyed him. I enjoyed Michael Shanks in this episode. I enjoyed the conclusion, which we'll talk about in a bit. And I'm a big fan of this Oliver Queen. I think Justin Hartley does a great job as Oliver Queen. I like him throughout the entire series. I think I prefer him to Stephen Amill to be honest myself, but then I didn't really I didn't really stick with that show, I have to

Yeah, I don't have much said to that. I think they really do highlight how different the show it is now, because you would never dream of seeing so many like explicitly comic booky characters in the earlier seasons of Small, butl you just it just wouldn't even work with the aesthetic of the show at that point, so it's it's just so so different. I think Hawkman is pretty great. I mean, it's hard to get that helmet right, and I don't know if it's possible to ever get it

He died in an absolute justice Yeah, it's just so he's not coming back.

I had. I had a senior moment last night when I was watching it and I was like, when did he When did the recast like Katie Cassidy in this And I was like, I don't remember that happening. And then I turned it off and I literally woke up this morning and the first thing that came into my mind was, that's a different universe. Different universe.

Yes, yes, Elena Huffin's black Canary doesnt appear. She she would, you know, she was in some Stargate shows as well as well as I understand her, so she's she was a more available Canadian actress as I as I understand it, so she would pop up more often than some of the other Justice League cast members, like she was in the beginning of season eight, and she she shows up a couple more times in season ten, so she was she was available, and whenever they do a conference calls,

Then, Yeah, when I saw her, I had forgotten that there was a black Canary in this, and then I suddenly remembered, Oh god, this is where the like eye makeup instead of a mask thing that was in Narrow Season one came from imagine how long that takes. I'd forgotten that they do that in Narrow Season one. Was like, oh god, that was so bad.

Small Bull is the blooprint everyone, But let's get into it. Then, Icarus.

I've seen this level of hatred before humanity's darkest hours. Every time it looked like the world would be consumed by hatred and darkness, another force arose to send the darkness back.

Well, this time it's us and we need to start by stalking.

Slate Smallville All new episode this Friday at eight seventh Central.

Icarus is the eleventh episode of Smallville's tenth season. It turned on December tenth, twenty ten. Was written by Jenneity Sparling and directed by Marzy Almus. Ratings watch, guys are playing the game where you guess what the ratings were for this episode back in twenty ten. Uh. To give you a little context, the previous week, the episode Luther got two point seven to six million, and then way back in the season premiere Lazarus in September twenty ten,

Two point five?

All right, Rob, I'm gonna say mid season finale. They were probably pushing the proposal in a big way in the promos, so I'm gonna say this was probably a hi.

This is probably two point nine, all.

Right, two point five to five.

WHOA, well, don't allen, I'm my dance you got.

You guys are on these I'm throwing out these gay games. If you guys are guessing, great man, you guys are great games. And I think, no, your your logic does make sense, Rob, But this is like the middle of December. People are on college break, they're on vacation. This is pretty late. I mean small Though rarely went this deep into December. Sometimes they would have like one episode in

I thought lows and c acted it better. I remember that day, well, that summer's afternoon, watching that Cliffhanger episode and being, oh my god, I had to wait three months for the conclusion, or six months even maybe it was nice. I thought it was really overly sentimental. It was. It was very kind of old Mark channelish. I thought it was really like the music in the background I found really distracting throughout the entire scene. And they're both

Fair. What about you, Rob, I mostly agree with that.

It's interesting that you brought up the music. I actually had a similar thought. And Mark Snow is long gone now it's it's Louis Louis feb Febre.

Yeah.

I always do God bless them, but I do notice when Mark Snow leaves and the other guy comes in. The scores were never sorry not to offend the composer, but I just never thought the composers the scores were strong. I don't think it's as well done on Low and Clark.

I was impressed by Again, practically there wasn't much a cgi. I was impressed by that.

I thought it was odd putting it at the top of the episode. It was like it was this big emotional high and then everything else after the episode just kind of came down from that a bit. It feels like something you should put at the end of an episode. And I was trying to remember. I was like, I don't even remember this the first watching the show first

Those are real. Those are two different ending scenes from the from the fourth and fifth episode. Okay, so some might argue they should have combined those, yeah, but I would agree, like those are some emotional high notes there. Yeah, and you know, maybe maybe combining all these things together

Know, to be fair, Lewis and Clark dated for like two weeks, you.

Know, that's yeah, that's before the question she was taking out with that what's his name, Dan Scardina that's yes.

Yeah, like the week before right, another point that was gonna make I'm sorry, I feel like I do this every time I'm on your show. I also don't think Tom Welling is as good that the romantic stuff as other Superman actors have been. And he looks a little bit uncomfortable in this scene for me when he's like when he's doing his big proposal speech, I just don't see the same kind of.

Wouldn't she be uncomfortable if you were in that position.

There? But like a charming way, just just it in like a fact way.

I actually I do undertotally see what you're saying, because I think that most of the time on the show.

Other at this point.

And then hey, now that we know everything, I'm gonna ask you to marry me. And I I think that's probably the better approach than like. But but I do understand on Lols and Clark that he wants Clark on that show, wants Lowis to love him for just being Clark, not Superman. At the same point, it's like, dude, like, shouldn't you tell somebody this before? Like that's kind of a I don't know, like because in the comic books it was kind of at the same time, right, he

It's the much better is Like I said, I love Loews and Clark and go up with a huge nostalgia factor to me. But that's an issue Lois. Whether she's told by Clark, which I prefer that he tells her rather than her figuring it out, well, you know what, that's not technique true. I do like the fact that she's smart enough to figure it out, but she should know by the time that he's popping the question. As

Yeah, I'm conflicted on it because on the one hand, I think him not telling her is narratively more interesting and it leads to better conflict and it it's an issue then that they have to work through and he has to become a better person by by working through it. But it's deeply it's deeply problematic, you know, you know, And it's just the classic problem with the whole Clark Kent secret identity thing.

Now.

It's just it's difficult to tell those kinds of stories in the modern kind of landscape we live in where, you know. So I think in that sense, I think Smallville was wise to sort of steer away from it.

Yeah, I like there a lot of variationship because it is a complicated situation, as you all said, like it's like, well, I've been lying to you every day for two years? Will you marry me? I'm like, well, let's we need to we need to talk about some things here before.

Actually, last thing I'll say is I actually.

Don't like how they did it in the comics.

I think that was just sort of like he doesn't tell her a secret, and then he proposes, and then he kind of just tells her a secret a little while later and she's fine with it, and then they you know, it's not as it's not as.

Kind of interesting the way they do it there.

Yeah, well, I do have in my notes here, I do have the lions that the lions that took out to me most were like, you don't make it easy to ask a simple question, but that's what makes sure you And I thought that was adorable and that's that's so true to them and it's a beautiful moment. And I get your hallmark comments there, Alan, you know, but your wilds made very that that was the space we're existing in here, But yes, it is.

The hallmark was just more about the kind of the overall feel of it. I thought I kind of just felt like it was that over sentimentality kind of stuff. But no, that's that was That was a great line.

Yeah, and uh on the empty streets of the seasons in Metropolis because there's no budget, there's no no extras, there's no one but you know, the middle of the night. And yeah, but she says yes, and that's a great moment, and we we've had out and then we go to the opening credits, and now she's gonna be they're gonna little did we know? We're heading towards the wedding for the for the series finale.

Of Ever Become Superman.

Yeah, that's the thing, right, I mean, that's a conversation for another episode. But yeah, not only do we spend an exorbitant amount of time on a wedding at the series finalite, they actually don't get married.

Yeah.

I just spent all that time. So oh man. So we go to the opening credits. We come back with the Daily Planet. You know they've established so there's like a borderline martial law going on a metropolis right now, there's these curfews, right, people getting checked in in the Daily Planet and scan Right. What's cute though, is because you know, well it just got engaged. She has this engageing rate and she wants people to notice it, and no one is noticing it, like just going through the courage.

Yeah, I also was.

Nice Cat Grant. I get you, guys. This is a great episode for you guys to be on being so Lewis and Clark is in your DNA. You're a Superman fandom, right, Cat Grant on small though? I gotta say not not not a big fan of Cat Grant. What are your thoughts, y'all?

Which one?

Well, everybody loves the first Cat Grant because it was it was a one off name they used in season nine and she was gonna be a TV show host, And I don't know if they ever thought about reincorporating her if they want to start from scratch with a character. What's so interesting is I had forgotten this rewatching season two doing the podcast. This Krant's name isn't even her name, like she has she has another name. She was like hiding from, like her her ex husband, like to protect

Honestly, I don't mind this character. I thought it was it was a nice little spin, making her kind of this conservative, you know, and busy body like that. I like the bit where she hanslawis a sniakerdoodle. Yeah, And like, you know, they take a lot of stuff from the comics here with her son and being on their own from an abusive husband or whatever. That that that's from the comics as well, So I kind of like that.

They sexualized her in the art though, didn't they didn't they sexualize her kind of She had big.

Blonde hair, and I think she had other nice features, but I not not to the extent that she was like. It was only in Jeff John's kind of comics in the in the mid two thousands that they made her explicitly more like the Tracy Scoggin's version, and they gave her breast and plants and all this sort of stuff. And then and they did this weird joke where I think Supergirl is like, what's wrong with that woman? There's there's all this silicone her.

It's really weird.

You know.

I don't I don't have any huge issue, but there was a nice, interesting little twist to make her this way. Yeah.

I found her super annoying, and she kind of struck me as the kind of person who would have, you know, ratted out and Frank for hiding in the attic. You know, she's she's that kind of a character. And I when she came back and I was like, oh, yeah, I forgot about this this cat Grand. But look, she has a little redemption later on in the episode where you know, she she has the opportunity to really throw those under

Evennoying it or whatever. But overall, she she does great on me, like she wouldn't be. She wouldn't be my favorite live action duration by a long shot. And hashtag justice for Tracy's Coggins. Whatever happened to that cat Grand, We'll never know.

I'll never know.

We'll never know.

We'll never know. When they come out with Loewis and Clark ninety three comic book, we might find.

Out what happened with Tracy's You'll be waiting for that.

So yeah, I you know, her function is to be an annoyance, and I get there. But there's a way to have characters like that and then to kind of but you enjoy them being an annoyance and versus they annoy you being an annoyance, and that's kind of where I am with the character. But uh so she comes in the other they have something. They have some talk here. But you know what, y'all, I almost forgot we have we have a note is Lois Lane? Is this Lewis?

So is there a significance to the the chain that she gets with the letter that I missed her.

Yeah, I have no idea.

Did that come back? I just found very odd.

I don't know. I'm maybe I need to turn my smum lil fan card. But that's a very valid question I have to answer for you. They have There's not like, oh oh yeah, it's our thing or no, you didn't have a thing. You were just cousbands who lived together sometimes in the talent apartment. Because I thought to myself, like, did they film this for this episode? But then no, because the talent got blown up a couple episodes ago, so they potentially didn't have this set anymore as far

That was another thing I'd completely forgotten. But she's like an ally to like even remotely a villain by this stage. I know she gets with a meal, doesn't she.

That's that's in the Hangover episode.

That's correct Hangover episode. My goodness, gracious too, I remember that one. That was a weird one that was like two episodes from the end, and we're doing this Hangover nonsense.

Actually, like like yeah, look, I'm for a good movie. Pause an episode right anytime but not when you're like in the countdown to the Let's make sure we make the time for this hangover inspired epis. So the kids are gonna love it, let me tell you. But guess what Lowe shows up for a retina scant. Clark's there too at the same time. What a surprise, right weird? Anyway, let's go in this dark room. Oh surprise, it's an engagement party from all the guest stars. We could get back this episode.

The four of them.

We have every star girl. You know, your close social friend stargirl hawk Van is here. Sorry I kissed your fiance a couple episodes ago, I said a vision of my dead wife. Sorry Hawkman did that.

And a couple episodes ago.

And doctor Emil. I love how they call him doctor. You talked about two cat grants. We have two doctor Hamilton's on this show now. They were Space Style a little more and Steven Hamilton was Joe Morton's character in the first two seasons. This is a meal Hamilton, but I bring it out and people probably sick of me singing this, but like, whenever it comes up, I find it so amusing. They call him doctor Emial all the time because they guess they don't want to confuse people.

Yes, just for context, where is Martha came to this stage? Is she a senator? Is she of senatoring or is that finished with she?

She is off senatoring, yes, but but she she does come back for a few episodes in season ten. Okay, so yeah, you would think his mom should be here, Is that what you think?

Or even just a phone call or something just a little a little kind of a scene there with a phone call or congratulations.

Lois's sister might be here, you know, just out there.

It's the classic problem with any of these teen shows that but by this point in the series, when people are getting married, they don't want to pay to bring the parents back, so the parents are never there and the siblings are never there. Lane absolutely no.

No to this season's credit though, like everyone is not here at the same time, but they piece mail everybody together, right because a couple ago, Lois's dad instance, we both came back, Supergirl was back field bed. That's a person I think should be here. His cousin, you know where she is. Maybe you guys probably thought they recast Supergirl with the Stargirl here. No, that's not Supergirl, that Stargirl, so you should be here.

But when I saw Stargirl in this scene, I was like, is that just an extra? Like it's not just one of their other friends who we don't see, you know.

Like the people that show up at their wedding, like the people right now.

Oh. But what I'll say though, is, you know, yeah, other people should be there and all that kind of stuff. But my god, do they really make you believe that Clark and Oliver are just best friends now? And it's

I totally agree. I mean spoilers for Superman Lowis season four. But Kyle Cushing gets married, who do you guys to be his best man.

That was so stupid, right, it made no sense. Well, I guess like do you not have any other friends? Kyle push the.

Guy at the fire station or something?

Right?

I mean, come on right, I mean I get married in Superman's house like that's fun at all. But I mean that was like, okay, that's exactly mean it's fresh as of this recording against fresh on my Mom. That's exactly where my mind went when he was saying, pick what other main character who is Clark's best man? When on Loewis and Clark with Jimmy did they have a wedding party?

Was Jimmy?

It was Jimmy? And you know what, I actually thought it was stupid there as well. It's like he would have another friend who he would ask, like, you know, I.

Don't think Dean Kane has it. I mean I don't think Clark Kent has any friends. No.

Yeah, so yeah, like in the comics, was it was it Batman It's best man? Or was it someone else? I'm trying to remember. Maybe it was Jimmy. I can't remember Pete Ross remember now?

Yeah, because you think even like Peter, where's peace in this note? Because I know he came back he comes back from.

Now Allan Allan uh as a as a man of the law. You'll be happy to know that the actor was currently unavailable for law reasons at this time.

But did he not come back in the later episodes?

He came back in season seven.

That was that was before his trouble, right, Okay.

So I could really go for some chewing him right now.

Yeah, yes, he is currently being a roadie for One Republic in Universe right now, so hard to track their during schedule, so that's why it wasn't invited. But but yeah, I mean, Oliver, him and Clark have really they have been through a lot together, you know, so it's it's fair that he would ask him to be his best man.

I may not have actually managed to appear on the Banshie episode, but I did all the research and I watched it before, and even in that I really enjoyed. He's two and he's too and fourth with the like Chloe and everybody in the in the Honeymoon Hotel and all that stuff, and yeah, he was really great. I really like Justin Hartley a lot, Like I compared him to Stephen Mla earlier on Like I one like the suit as much, but I much prefer this, I do. I much prefer the role. I think he's great.

Well, I do think you know, we were talking about Bruce Wayne and Batman energy here, like this Oliver Queen is more like the comic book Oliver Queen, Like he's got cheerie and all that. Yeah, somewhat more politically minded, you know. On Arrow, it's like, oh, yeah, the Dark Knight trilogy, We'll just do that with green hair. That's it. There's that's it now. It goes on the show.

During the day.

The Lamborghini then, So that's the difference between that. Yeah, I would have loved to see a goateee on this guy, right, but it is. It was they were not going to have God forbid people wear glasses and facial hair on the c W ten drama that we're watching right now. So some cute back and forth though, but you know, they talk to hawk Man and they're like, hey, you and Srey were married what like a hundred times, right, how is that? Maybe that's weird, Maybe it's not weird.

Right, I actually thought that was a good I was like, oh that's I actually thought that was nicely no theory, but yeah, time and place, man, time and place.

I do like, you know, I was joking by doctor Meil, I like, how you s here he is in the inner circle. I would have I mean, I don't know how the how the contracts and budgets work. I would have made him a regular for season ten. You know, I just have him. There was no no he was. He was in a handful of episodes, but never never enough. You know, if you do that, uh that thirteen episode contract that Eric Durantz and John Glover had so many years,

Come on, yeah, yeah, true.

I remember actually watching the opening credits this week, thinking this feels longer for some reason. It's like, it feels like they use more of this, and now I'm thinking that it must be that because Alison Mack wasn't in it.

Right, Just more money shots, more Clark doing super things, more of the black trench coat, more of that, let's see more of that, possuly he doesn't wear anymore.

I remember being surprised last night when Erica Dranz was the second billing in the credits. I remember that kind of that kind of surprised me, as like oladok.

Her ten years. Well, it took her, I guess, six years to get well.

She don't get me wrong, she deserves it, like she's a highlight of the series. I absolutely love her. But yeah, that was great to see. It's gotten that now.

Green Arrow and Hawkman traditionally you are at odds with each other. They play with some of that in the Absolute Justice two parter as well, and here you know they have an actual human moment between them. He's like he's just all warm and fuzzy, but you know, I'm sorry about Chloe, and he's like, you're not gonna hug you now, are you? And so I like how you need to establish the camaraderie between these guys, and you slow down, you take time to get to know them.

Yeah, it turns, it turns. It turns pretty dark pretty quickly, like what is a mugging or an assault or whatever. And then he steps in and the crowd just turns on him really quickly and turns super violent, very fast, and real meanness to it and stuff. So I was I was actually surprised by that.

I'm talking about no extras in the other scenes. There's loads of extras in this scene. Yeah, they put the boy seems to have gone into this scene.

Your budget went to this seat, right, because it's this. It's as simple like a person mugging. Alver tries to stop it. You know, he's not going to change into green arrow because he's right there on the street. And then his identity is public, you know, So he pulls off a water poster off the wall right before this to kind of establish that, you know, he's he's an outlaw, right, he's been brandon terrorist now right because because of some

Not only that, like whatever about the ugliness on the street? And it might have seemed a bit unreal, Like if you watched this in twenty eleven. I can't remember my mindset at the time, but I could have watched it and thought that's they they want? Didn't that would never happen. They'd never attack a hero, they never attack it, But like what would their issues? But how could they turn the crowd like that? And obviously now fast forward thirteen

It is It is pretty DC comics accurate, though, isn't it?

Like so many things absolutely as if the plays Yeah, like if if if it had been a case where maybe you saw someone who was friendly to Oliver earlier on or something and they.

Had turned or a group of people who liked him had turned or something. But just kind of like, look, it's not really the people. People are genuinely decent and stuff.

Can I can I ask that because my memory of the whole the darkness thing is that it's it's not that people like individual people are all just getting possessed. It's like a cumulative kind of spreading atmosphere of darkness that that infects people's souls as opposed to them just being possessed.

Yes, so a couple of people get possessed, possessed like Godfrey gets possessed Earth too, Lionel Luther gets possessed. But outside of that, yeah, it's it's this this pray is on your fear and your your you know, your your worst tendency, that's the webs, and then that that kind of makes you more inclined to react negatively and you know, xenophobia, you know, and all these sorts of things come out, and that's that's kind of what they're doing. And that's

Right?

So all these things just kind of it's a house of cards that kind of doesn't quite hold on.

I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry to give ahead, but I'm I'm assuming you've got other plans for the finale. So I do have to ask this boy, Superman in this show is literally strong enough to push a planet away?

Yeah, he's the best.

Does that not make him the most power the Superman ever? Like even more powerful than like the Christopher Reever.

Christoph you saw him struggling to push that moon get out of here? Man he puts to another galaxy.

Yeah, it's like it's a planet that's supposed to be bigger than Earth. I want to say as well, So it's like that is absolutely the biggest feat of strength we've ever seen Superman.

Do it?

Absolutely take that Brandon ofth lifting up a continent and it's nothing, all right, So no, it's h he is true silvery superman power level at the end. That's why the show has to end because no, there's no other obstacle for him in that one. Yeah that's a good question. Yeah, well he gave up his powers, Allen, Okay. His family is not a weakness, Allen, Okay.

So I often think about just retiring at forty.

Look, there's plenty of other police officers. They got it under they got it fined. You go home with your family the next generation. So the government they're raiding everywhere. They're going to Luther Corp. They're going to the hospital, they're collecting all these people. Uh fortunately, kind of like

This is oh yeah.

I was just just saying, like, it doesn't there's perfectly void thing to say. I thought that was a funny line, like they act like they just got back from their wedding and their honeymoon and they had to go be Superman all of a sudden. But but you know, she's like, hey, you know, i'm journalism and ice cream your superhero stuff,

Yeah, yeah, I would agree with that.

Then we start we start rounding up the test mercer. Right, she's reading the Daily Star, which I like the comment about the Daily Star cat Grant. Yeah, okay, kudos to cat Grant. I mean I was talking mess about her before. But she's like, hey, we should roam with this article. You know, we're losing subscribers. And she's like, well that was unsubstantiated facts, Like well, I mean he did get arrested.

Right.

I'm like, okay, we're they exit, they're not here, but they're still here sort of.

And it's around this time that they raid the farm, isn't it.

Yes, small farm they're looking for I guess they were looking for Lowis, we're looking for Clark. I don't know which one they were looking for.

So this this was my question. It hasn't been established that they know that Clark is the Brow at this point before.

That was my question as well.

Alan, Oh, okay, because I just assumed that there was some kind of something in a previous episode where they established this, like they put in two and two together and Kicking four.

That they're smarter than any other Superman villains because the League.

They're like, well, obviously this guy is the Blur, right, which.

So I think that was because yeah, I was wondering, but I was wondering if it was it because Lois was engaged to Clark and they were aware that there was some kind of relationship between the two. Maybe and like that's obviously he's him. That's the only thing I was But I was worried that I had missed something in a previous episode where it would have been definitive, definitively established, but maybe not.

You know, Well, in the episode where Stroke his first episode. At the end of it, Clark shows up to save the day and just talks to him like a person, like with no mask or anything. So, yeah, maybe that's how they know. So that could be the angle or they were just looking for Lois it was. It was vague to me too, Alan So but oh that the same Oh by the way, the same reporter. Shout out to this reporter. If it were today, she'd be Bethany

Turn off from the Batman is no more.

That's not the same thing.

You can't there's monsters out there.

Batman is what does he say?

Badman is to protect the people.

Sorry, Jase's coming over for dinner. I'm telling her everything. This this this overreaction of like everyone wants to retire and shut everything down in fine, And just the fact that there'd be a giant lever for him, like like a mad scientist laugher and just turn it all off, Well, I felt bad for his black Canary.

They don't even say goodbye. The screen just goes black. I I had trouble with this because it's a secret hideout. Why do they need to shut down the secret hideout?

Right?

They don't, Like, there's no tactical advantage to this at all. And I'm close, Like, as much as we're talking about the blur and his costume, his modus operandi is still that no one can see him operate, Like they don't even have a picture of him on the wanted poster. I want to get back to that wanted poster.

In a sec.

But yeah, that the whole idea of them going dark as heroes doesn't just didn't. I understand that Clark needs to make himself scarce scarce as Clark Kent as well, That that part makes sense, But the idea of the heroes having to give up in here, I just didn't didn't.

But even the fact that they're already underground exactly that they're operating under the radar, so we're just.

Going to secret identity, deep undercover, deeper under cover.

Yeah, because like Carter Hall, your own sabbatical, Courtney Whitmore, you're studying abroad, Clark Kin no more? How long is this sustainable? You know?

I was I was half expecting to just kind of show a scene of them walking out of the Watchtown with like fake mustaches or glasses.

I gotta say that they're they're walking out after they shut everything down, way over dramatic.

Why did they do?

It's like like so motion. I'm like, it's not it's not the end.

It's not the end of stand by Me, like where people are just disappearing.

What it did remind me of, though, is the end of the season eight, right, because that's when you know the doomsday episode when it's just Chloe and Clark is like, Clark k is dead. Humananity is by weakness, I need to embrace by alien side. He just and you just slowly feel the dreams fades away and through those same doors. I was like, guys, it doesn't just stop with that. That's it doesn't work anyway. It was just Oh, also in this whole sequence is when they find out Slatest

I reminded of a skit from a Family Guy where the general Halls are sitting at the table talking about you know which one is better, and Peter goes, you're both just awful. You're both awful. Yeah, death stroke and Clark was never really death stroke in anything but Name and this guy. I think I saw a poster a comment you made during the week where you call him death stroke McCann or.

John m you guys being non Americans. John McCain's a famous politician, we were not.

We're not that real mode.

I don't know the world is watching.

But yeah, that that that was very apt and like the one thing that that didn't. This actor play a very similar role in Battle Clever.

Michael Hogan. He played Colonel Tyle. Boss got a fantastic show. I highly recommend The Boss. Anyone who is interested in sci fi is when the best sci fi shows ever. He plays a great character on that show. He has an eye patch on that show, So I'm like, oh, well, I guess that's good. I don't really think about death stroke when I was watching Smallville, I was like, well, that's kind of a weird old guy with okay, sure whatever, And now like I know what death stroke is, I'm like,

I would say. I agree with Alan, Like the biggest problem with death stroke and Lewson Clark is that he's called death stroke. If they called him doctor Polaris, that actually would have been perfect doctor Polaris because he has

Is that a thing.

I don't think so, I mean, I don't know. I mean Deadpool, he's a dead Deadpool is a rip off a death Strokes. Maybe that's maybe the lions get blurred there. I see what you mean.

Yeah, I think conceptually it's all fine. The casting is all wrong on the look is all wrong. That line he says near the end Fellas.

We're gonna we're gonna save on that. We're gonna We're gonna hold that line.

So I would say I'm conflicted, but I kind of feel like this one's worse.

Yeah, sorry to both your points. The loophole is on Lewis and Clark. He's not like death stroke really, it's a name they attached to somebody. So that's the loophole that makes him not the worst death stroke in this They were trying to do the Slade Wilson death stroke and it's not good. So I and I'm tired of small little Season ten. I have to say, you know, well, this is the worst version of this character, and this is the worst version of this character. And this is

Yeah, he doesn't.

He's the TV's like, wow, I survived the explosion was not with that great costs? And he points to this giant ass can I can?

I just just one thing that the Superman homepage review alerted me to this fact the wanted poster that has all the heroes and it has Impulse on it, which is nice. It was cyberguns. And come back to the main question. Though Supergirl, she's called Supergirl? I did not. I never Oh, yes, she is literally called Supergirl in the kindon of the show.

Is that correct, Well, there's an episode it's called Supergirl. That episode, Yeah, I know that chat, and then I had seen I want to bring this up, so I'm glad you so like there was like a Maiden of Might headlines and I'm like, okay, I see you want to call that because there's absolutely no way you would call her Supergirl for Superman exists.

Of course.

And then here they're like, oh, what's Supergirl right the prop department something the wires got crossed.

Somewhere crazy, Yeah, it's the hero as often as they do because they say that word a lot, like that word shouldn't exist either, but like literally calling her a Supergirl, it's just like.

Well, yeah, I mean it's the It's so yeah, that's literally the next scene is that this this most wanted we have the blur, right, We had just have his S picture, which is funny because Supergirl is also she has the S on her bracelet.

You know.

So my thinking was, you know, I'm rewriting all these episode season T episodes as as I go, as I cover him, like they should have said Supergirl was the blur and that could have solved a lot of problems for Clark and like that, oh that was a different entity and now Superman is different or whatever. But yeah, just just to see her called Supergirl. What's also funny to me? In this wanted poster, by the way, green Arrow is a sketch. You have a picture of Oliver Queen.

I'm where is Marshmann Hunder at this point in the show.

Oh, well, he's gonna be the funeral later. But that's it, Like he's a detective in Metropolis. He had a great checkmate in season nine, was a fantastic Martian Man Hunter showcase episode. And to your point, Rob about how this is a Superman show, that was episode straight out of JAILU Like everybody was involved. Amanda Waller was there, Clark had to break in like it was a great episode. That was his last episode.

That's a Jackie Brown plays.

Yeah, Phil Morris, Jackie Chiles, that's who. Yeah, but oh jack I would say Jackie Brown. I was sign filled Jackie Brown, Pam Greer, Amanda Waller got it. Yeah, it across my streams there.

Now.

Phil Morris did appear on a screen at the end of season nine. That was his official ending, and then they mentioned him once. Kloe calls him my favorite Martian sometime this season, which is hilarious. But that's that's the end of him.

Yeah.

They should have Cyberg on here. Yeah, I mean they both should be on here more than Zatana. You know, I'm sure Luther Korp has some security finish of him doing something but anyway, and this is what I'm saying, y'all, Like, I don't I don't know if this was the right thing to conflate all these plot lines in season ten, Like we have dark Side in his minions. We have like the government coming after the Heroes. We have Clark

If you were to go back and cut something, would you would you cut some of those stories completely out of it?

If you could go back, and I would probably cut dark Side, And I would get that because because you

I actually disagree. I I really like, well, I have to be careful what to say here.

Now.

I get that it is a bad adaptation of Dark Side, Like there's no arguments there, but I do really like that the the overall challenge that Clark has to become in his final hurdle to becoming Superman, as he has to take on this darkness that is kind of just this etherial metaphysical thing that's affecting the whole world, and only a beacon of light and courage and hope as powerful as Superman can can stop that. But first, in order to stop that, Clark has to, you know, tackle

And I see that, I think thematically, I understand that. I just I think dark Side, like he the reach exceeded their grasp with dark Side, and especially knowing what they ended up having to do, like the Returnal likes Luthor though more than anything, that would be my number one plot.

But yeah, but yeah, but I can I can cletely understand why they couldn't nail themselves to that cross with you know, casting and stuff. But I can kind of see from both your angles. Yes, I don't think the dark Side stuff or the Omega stuff was done very well.

Like los Allen asked to fight in the final episode? Was that river?

And maybe maybe you don't know that, but was the river? Any kind of a discussion about maybe having him turn into Superman before the very end of the season, maybe having a few episodes off him or anything like that where maybe in the mid season he would turn into Superman and you just get some kind of.

Well as the story goes out. The original script for the series finale was he was gonna be Superman like in the first scene, and then I have two episodes of Superman.

Wow.

And then Tom Allen was like, Nah, I don't think that's our show, and I don't want to wear the costume. We're gonna change that, and that is the biggest we got. What we got?

Soh my god, man.

Lots of conflicting interest. Now here's here's the thing, right, I have been pretty hard on Tom over the years about that. I think look, in twenty twenty four, Tom would have been Superman, right, but at the time he just wasn't there for it, man, And it's still frustration, like I'm not gonna lie. I'm like the whole one of the show has he become Superman. But when he signed up in two thousand and one to do this, you know, that was like, sure, I'll do like a

Like I just this thing I keep coming back to is he was concerned about only ever being seen as Superman. You know. But you know, even then, if you googled Tom Welling Superman, like your Google images would just be

Never I'm still I'm still bitter whatever, but I'm not even wearing the suit, which is bad enough. I'm still bitter about the fact that they didn't have their own suit because they didn't have the show.

Well, if he would have worn it, they would have had to make their own suit. But since it was like, well, you're not gonna wear it, well, then here, we'll just use the Superman Returns prop. There you are, and it's tough, y'all. It's it's I'm coming down to like the realization again that he didn't put on the costume and stuff.

Now, maybe he would have put on the Superman Lives costume.

I I would have. It's so interesting that, you know, Superman Returns came out during the show, so the show kind of had to adopt that. I mean, you look at the as it's not exactly the Superme Returns S, but it's it's way more in that style than anything else.

Well that's what That's what I liked with that bench episode because I often say it like I said that a nauseum that you know, I grew up in that episodic like we ordered that episodic generation of TV like TNG and all that kind of stuff. And I really enjoyed watching Benshi because it was pretty self contained, you know, the one where they go on their their couple's retreat or whatever. But I was a little bit worried that this one, remembering that season ten was was a full

Well, no, I'm glad I was. I was a little concerned because once I rewatched this, I was like, man, this is pretty heavy for these guys. I know you had some small knowledge from before, so only that helped you. Because this is literally every plot line going on here is here. So they're interrogating all the good guys, right, And Lieutenant Trotter is a death Strokes lieutenant here and she was in uh Patriot a couple of sodes ago, she's in this episode. She's in the next episode as well,

So I love it. When they said that was great, you lead this generation.

Silverage pure, it was yeah. But you know, during this scene, Clark's like, oh, man, like if they know about Lois and the blur, like what kind of marriage is that gonna be? So they're they're planning some doubts unfortunately for Clark, which you're gonna like that's the thing, right, Like they're on the same page. Things are great, but they keep

I think how old are Clark and Lewis in season ten? Roughly? Are they like twenty six twenty five?

They are twenty five? Lois maybe twenty because Clark is fifteen and season one he's probably fourteen, and I round up a little bit, so at some point he's fifteen, yeah, okay, and then ten years later Low's twenty.

Yeah, because twenty. It's one thing that when I was watching it the last night, obviously, look, they have to progress the relationship, but I always thought that I can never quite accept Lowis Lane wanted to be a wife and married to twenty five.

Well that's why they don't get married for seven more years out. Yeah, maybe that's part of it. I think she's then thirty two. It's insane how young these people are supposed to because we're all much older than them now, and I just still got there. I was like, I'm gonna grow up and be this Clark getting one day I'm way older than him.

Yeah. I turned forty two weeks ago, man, and it's wow. Not me for six?

How old and just how old are how old Lewis and Clark? How old are Lowis and Clark on Lewis and Clark in their mid twenties.

Their twenty Clark is twenty six in season one?

Wait, because then yeah, he turns up he's twenty six.

Okay, Yeah, that was holding.

That's amazing that, like Dean and Terry were younger than Tom and Erica were when they like started playing these younger versions of the characters.

I think right, Gerard Christopher, who played super Boy, was thirty one he played super Boy, and he was like seven years older than Dean Kine was when he played super a couple of years.

It's like, what was what was Chrisphreevey twenty six in Superman Movie twenty six? Like it's he's.

Four twenty four when he got cast cast film most of it.

They don't make him like they used to guys.

No, no, they don't.

Did you wonder who else was gonna pop out of the shadows though? In the scene, because like first it's Clark and then it's hawk Man and the green Arrow was like, well the big three of us? Is everybody here? Like I thought that was amusing.

I just wanted to know how they found the office and got into it so quick, because you know, there was it was it was like that. That's how there's there's an episode in the season one of those in Clark where they have to break into his government facility and there's a guy who gives him a key card. He talks about how amazing the security system is, and it's just swiping the card and walking straight in. There's nothing to do with a kind of interview that.

There's something to be said for, like what kind of episode, what kind of story we tell it? Are we telling? We got to break in this facility, like because you could make an entire episode about what they are doing right now, But instead it's like one scene and they're all there and they're like all right, yeah, we move on.

And then they find this document. This is the kind of operational document is Icarus document? And is that that's just a list basically of all the vigilantes and all their associates that they're going to target. Is that what that is?

It is the list of all of the Double O agents and their code names. It is the is the list of Mission impossible in Skyfall, every espionage film ever made. But this is you know, this is by the way, episode titles an episode post one because Icarus. Right. It was weird because later on we see Hawkman in his wings on fire. I'm like, oh, is that that's the Icarus reference? But no, it's it's it's this. I'm like, oh, okay, sure, small, well, that's fine.

I have a I have kind of a life rule that anytime I hear someone explain the legend of Icarus in a TV show or a movie, now I have to finish my drink just for the rest.

Of my life.

It's just a drinking game I'm playing because it happens in every single genre show. Cobra Kai last year, we're talking about Icarus. You know this that James Bond on another day it's it's Icarus and we have to explain what Icarus is and he flew too close the Sun. It just seems to come up every single time, and every single time we have to explain but it's it's in everything.

Man.

I'm just like, we get it, we know whats is. You don't need to explain.

I'm sure there's a Star Trek episode where they just bound to be.

It's probably the US. There's a scene.

Surely there's a scene in a previous season where John Glover mentions it or something.

Surely the story Vicarus.

We ever heard the story of us claw Icarus was and his son day Dallas, but.

He didn't realize.

You can actually see that. You can see the way they'd frame that scene.

Absolutely, I can picture my head gex I.

I thought it was so funny that Oliver Oliver I had to explain to Hawkman what Icarus was. Cowman Oliver.

Like, well, hawk Man, he's he's a historian here, obviously he's been for thousands of years. He starts talking about and this is what we're talking about.

Probably knew the guy.

I knew it. Ni Cheras was an asshole. But he's talk talking about the Spanish Inquisition, the Third Reich. You know, the darkness has been here before several times, right, I'm like, okay, well they I've forgotten this element. And I thought, like I thought the darkness like the only thing that stopped here was Superman, but I guess other things stopped it before, so I guess Superman is not that special. Uh, I don't know what are you saying here?

Show?

Like, I don't know. I had forgotten the fact that they had. As we talked about earlier, I conflated the darkness of history with choice, you feel like, but using using world history atrocities to kind of like hype up your villain is an odd choice.

I don't know if I agree with.

No, that's what I'm saying earlier on. I don't like it. I don't like when they try and justify things that have legitimately happened with this stuff. But look, it is what it is.

Yeah, within Like, where do you guys stand on Nazis being used as villains in genre movies like Indiana Jones and stuff.

I don't mind that as bad.

That's a different speed though, don't you think, because like they're in the era and like obviously those are the bad guys there. Yeah, they didn't say, oh no, Hitler would have been cool if like dark Side didn't come tell them what to do, like you know, like that's the difference.

Yea, if the Arc of the Covenants had created the Nazis, I would have been like, okay, no, the fact that they're the actual No, I don't mind that. I don't mind that at all. I don't mind that at all.

The reason I bring it up was we were watching of all things, Crisis on Earth cht and seriously saw these Nazis. She was like, wait, what there's Nazis like and they can just do that. I'm like, yeah, they do that all the time in comic book stuff. It's not a big deal. And she's like, yes, it is.

She was like, it's interesting. Okay.

I remember I had I had an ex girlfriend a long time ago, and her father took issue with the fact he didn't like like, you know, like Medal of Honor games and stuff like that, you know, like where you play PlayStation games where you relive historical events like the you know, storming Omaha Beach and stuff for entertainment. But then I was like, but you watch these movies all the time and for entertainment, and he was like, yeah, but that's different. But yeah, I can see his point of them.

A little bit older, so you get more of this government interrogation stuff.

I want to I just want to say the government interrogation stuff. I love a secret door and I like the fact that lowest mental contraption under the under the desk to make good or escape, Like Test just has this kun It reminded me of Alkilmer's slide under the chair in in Batman Forever. Just this door to a slide, and I was like, wow, where does this go? Obviously goes into like some kind of you know, high tech base or something, and she just walks out of a

I like that as well. It's a gag that they didn't need to do.

It was just yes, yeah, And I think it kind of plays in a like Test with this like Checkmate agent, and she had all this stuff in her office, so it's not completely out of like out of context, like it is completely out of over but knowing like she had had some some superhero sheanigans there before you know.

I saw the signal ready.

You know so much of like why I'm interested in, like I do this ascreed on multimedia editing all this stuff. A lot of this comes from my favorite movies as a kid finding out, Hey, you know this movie you watch a thousand times. Actually it originally was made this way. I'm like, what, how is that even possible? You know, And because because of Batman Forever, that sequence was supposed to start the movie not happened in the middle of it and all that stuff. So anyway, released the Shoemaker

Not to go too off topic controversially, as much as I want the Shoemaker still go back into the movie, I think that that was the correct move starting the movie the way they did.

I thought it was more.

Really starting like in the heat of the action with two faces.

Yeah, absolutely, yeah. I mean it made it feel different to the other two, and it just makes it more exciting. It just rattles along at the pace. There's a great the virtual work print fan edited Batman Forever, if if anyone is interested in the humor Shoemaker cut, I believe that is probably the closest to what the Schumaker cut will end up being if we ever see it. And I always find whenever I watched that the movie is kind of a bit plotting at the start because they

Part, it is just just for Terry though. Is it is it that he uses that escape, that that office, the turbo lift or whatever you want to call it, to go to the two face situation? Get ready for that?

Yes. So the first scene in the movie is actually Bruce Wayne meeting Edward Nigma and he sees the signal and then he goes back into his office and then we see him.

Yeah, yeah, I just wanted to put the Red Book stuff back in there. That would kind of flesh out one.

Absolutely.

Yeah, always hold on to.

Batman forever need But you know what goes out to shoot here, She finds the secret exit in tests his office and runs into cac rant And you know that this is a as you guys said, it's a redeeming moment for Grant because she could have she could have turned her in, right, because she is the kind of character with that as you said, Alan would have sold out and and Frank and Frank, Yeah, sold out and Frank. But you know she's not. She proves that she's not,

We find out that the he's CCV, right, all right, he has access to like it's like big brother. He's access to CCV all over the city and all the hospitals, all the offices, Oliver's office, all that, all that stuff and keep being under constant surveillance for god knows how long. Yeah, I thought that was I thought that was cool. I thought that was good.

Yeah, which, which tracks is exactly what the government and government would do, right. I mean, the episode that introduced Lady Wilson was called Patriot right, the Patriot Act, very small of this post nine to eleven America, y'all, let's not forget. So that's what really with here. Clark gets tests and Hamilton out he sleeper speeds them out. They

Let's yeah, though, considering it's an old man. They did a pretty good job with the fight scene, like, and there's probably a stone Man in there somewhere, but if there is, they eyed him pretty well. Like I didn't. I didn't think he looked too ridiculous running around with the sword.

He looked. I thought he looked good, like with with his intuction with Lois and then with the with Hawkman as well. I thought it was he did a decent job. I'm wondering how all that man actually was because we keep calling him in the man. I'm afraid to look it up in case we find out like he was forty three at.

The time, he was in his late fifties if not.

Sixty, Okay, okay.

Confrontation with Lois here smacks her around, yeah, very physical, right, and then then he pulled a gun on those points in her head. Right, and then just when he's about to you know, kill her, a hawkman comes in and saves the day. And this is where this one I was like, damn, Like they really kind of figured it out. Hawkman's wings and feathers, like you see the texture, Yeah, the whole wings that kind of go in and outer.

So did it did look a lot worse, did it? Because when I watched it last night, I was like, this looks a hell of a lot better than I remember it.

Looking I remember.

So it was was it? Was it worse than previous episodes like the wings and the feathers and stuff or am I?

They were practical and upset Joseph, weren't they?

Yeah? There was there were some shots where he was just kind of like hanging there. It didn't okay, yeah it looked weird, but here they were totally cgi nothing pretty s The the glass breaking was a little weak, I thought, c g I wise, but he himself was pretty solid. His wings contract, That's the thing, right, I think it's got in the comboos. His wings don't contract. They're just there, and like that's so much of the character, Like leave those on, Like that's when it goes away.

Can I ask you, Zach, because I genuinely have not seen black at him. Do they do that in Black at him or does he just have the wa they.

Do, they do the thing where they did, but well the masks disappear. Now that's infuriating to me, Like the whole I hate. It's like have a hood, you know that you put on take off, like it's something about you pushing a button and your mask goes away. Is so lame and so now visually Black at him as the best hawk Man. But the problem is they don't. They don't touch on anything like reincarnation or his history.

That no, No, I thought it was pretty decent. I have to I have to say, I thought it was pretty decent. I thought it was going to be corny. I thought it was I thought it was pretty good. And like you they're when they're rolling the mace hits the ground as you know, the force impact of it, and like you really feel like there's real stakes at play here, that someone someone, someone's really going to get together.

It's classic Smallville though, that like, on the one hand you have this like perfect comics accurate hawkman, and then on the other hand, she just old man like when it could have been if this had actually been death stroke in a death row costume, having this fight like it would have been epic. It would have been iconic. People would be talking about it for years. But because it's just this half measure, you're like, what are we doing?

That's true, such a strange choice.

Yeah, I mean there's no reason he couldn't. It was just like put on pulled on the mask for the fight, even but he's in his dress uniform. You just fighting cockman, you know, And I know, like the industrial look is in at these office buildings and stuff. But maybe Oliver Clean, maybe if it didn't have these pipes on the side of your office. Maybe when we hit it with the sword,

Son I got the impression that he opened the wings solely to protect Lows from the blast and that she kind of went out as a result of the whatever you want to call it, the force or the blowback that he when when the explosion was coming. He puts the wings up to shield her because you see the fire kind of being deflected off her. And then she gets blown out the window. And then I was full sure you.

Know how hard you have to get blown out to shatter an office building window. She must have broken a bone or two just breaking that glass. Right, But it's a great vision because you see Lois falling down and we see him swooping in with his wings on fire, like that's as Clark was was going to catch her. Well, we are running like where's Clark right now? Because he's because he asked where's Wallis? Right with the other the other two umbers right? Yeah, great visual, But then uh

He was definitely not dressed as.

The why the hell is he not wearing Is it because they're underground? I mean, why is that? Why is that their excuse for not him not wearing the costume? Well, this is there's a lot of lines that people quote in small But that are like infamous lines, and this is one of the most infamous lines in the show. So Clark's like, I thought you were dead more or less, and here's what death stroke says. Let's just say the Reaper can swing his sick let me, but I'm beyond death stroke.

Now, Oh my goodness, gracious.

Someone wrote that as a line of dialogue.

Now it is.

It is definitely not worse than I'm you only a little bit more bizarre.

That is the other line I was thinking of Robins, I said, there was a lot of lines like that. Oh my goodness, that.

In this line of defense. If you were just a fan of Smallville and not Superman comics or DC comics or anything like that, and you heard him say that, you wouldn't think wait what, You would just think, oh, that's just the dialogue. That's fine. You know, where's the only a little bit more bizarre line? It just doesn't make any sense. Yeah, So it's like, no one would ever say that, whereas someone like this, you know, swing

That, and that's why he's called death drogs. But Clark trews the reason with him. He's like, we're supposed to protect people, know you can you can't love people. He's like, no, you don't believe that. I know you had a family before. And that kind of shows like the darkness is influence and I was like what is I was like, what is Clark going to do here? I'm like, what's gonna happen?

So that was that was gonna be my question. Has this featured anywhere previously? Because I couldn't remember this little esque crystal. Well assume he's sending him to the phantom zone.

That yes, yes, as we find out and way later this season when when Oliver and Clark get trapped in the Phantom Zone, he talks to Zod there and so I was like, what are you sending your your own criminals so your father will be disgusted, which is actually a good argument from Zod.

Actually yeah, so.

Okay, you mentioned the bizarre lion right in that episode the season six finale phantom Clark uses really is crystal and whatever not, but he takes it to He's been using it on phantoms throughout the season. If they are phantoms that have possessed physical people, it will take that phantom out and put them in the phantom zone. He tries to use that crystal on Batista, and Batista's like, hey, nice shy, but I'm not a phantom. So it doesn't work. Okay, okay,

Honestly, if if if Anthony Desiato is listening, this is the Smallville equivalent of Superman flying the criminals off to that cabin opened the costume.

Yes Yes, shout out to another exciting episode and the eventually Supermann our friend Anthony Deciata's podcast whenevery way, when anybody finds out Clark's secret, the running gag he has on that podcast, He's going to take him off to this cabin on the top of him. But now Clark's is going to send people off to the Phantom Zone because actual to complete my mission and Clarks will consider it finished, and he just zaps him off with this Crystal.

I assume this isn't the end of death stroke mechanics.

As I presume, what do you think, Alan, do you think? Do you think he comes back out?

I would assume that he does come back.

You would, wouldn't you know? He doesn't. Wow, there's a new member. That's why he's so frustratcause there's a news report that he shows back up. Because that's how Zod gets Clark back in the Phantom Zone. He gets his attention by sending these people back out.

Because I was gonna ask that that episode where they go into the Phantom Zone and they need Zod and he's now like the combined ZOD of season five and season nine. Yeah, does that happen after this or is that.

Before that's after this?

That's okay, but they don't meet they don't meet that stroke in the final of that.

No, because that they see that like a news alert that he's reappeared. Okay, SOD sent him back out to get.

We never physically see Michael Hogan again in the show.

That's why this is ridiculous. Like if he had evolved into more of the death stroke, maybe I'd be like, oh, and next time you see him, he's in another level and he has his costume. No, this is it ridiculous. That's insane, ridiculous.

I didn't realize that. I didn't realize that. I thought he was I literally thought he'd be back in like the next.

Episode, well like in the Phantom Zone, or he.

Had something I assumed, you know, Dark Slight didn't release him or something.

I'm all for a Phantom Zone projector like, you know, I think him sending Dooms out of the Phantom Zone was a great idea. But you know, when he was going to do that at the Fortress, because all his other crystals had been destroyed, right, but no, he couldn't do it anyway.

That's nuts.

Season ten has really great conduity in some areas and then awful continuity in other areas. And this is one but Clark he's renied with Lois and and Carter because Destro told him that they were dead, right, But you know, Hawkman opens his wings and Lois is there and so they embrace.

I like that. I like that that he was protecting her in his wings on the ground. I really I really like that. Yeah, never sawid very heroic, very heroic.

Michael Shanks was great as his character, and he'd this isn't one it done like he this is his like fourth episode if he count him on the screen, right, because he had some whyes in Salvation. So he is a a significant guest character in the last air of the show, and you know, it's a good moment. He's like, I'm a pro dyeing, remember, Like that's that's cute. Of course you would say something like that as he was dying, but you feel his loss because he was this veteran

Like he says to him in his dying moments, He's like, there has to be a balanced clerk. We can't do what we do with an engines in our hearts. I thought that was really really nice, and it's it's a thing that I hold true in all Superman stories, is that he actually should end up Willows. That shouldn't be the thing like Superman two where he has to like his own.

Of celibacy, you know, that kind of thing, and that's why he marries a lot and Superman three guys, right, Yeah.

I particularly like when when Clark looks at Lewis and and Hoffman kind of sees the love that they have is confirmed and he says that he knows he made the right decision. I really enjoyed that to it. Thought that was a nice touch, and.

It has even more weight because him and we had a whole episode together, like Shield, the second episode of the season. Like, so that's not just oh yeah, that's Clark's beance your girlfriend over there, Like, no, he he knows her and they had a they've had a heart to heart, so like he has insight into both of them. So that kind of means a lot, and you know, he has some party parts, some final wisdom to Clark here as he passes away, and it's solid stuff. I

Oh no, legends, Yeah I remember that.

Yeah, this this Hawkman's better, right all right?

Yeah?

Yeah, no, yeah he is.

Yeah.

Michael Shank, Michael Shanks kicks as in this.

And a nice final shot off we see Clark and Lewis and Carter all in the background, him kind of pan down with a camera and we see, you know, Hawkman's helmet in the foreground and we comeing too focus on them, like, okay, that's like it's like the comic book cover, like a death of a Hero.

I think it literally looks like the Identity Crisis. Do you remember that there's a panel in that that it looks like they actually took it from that.

I think.

I just really like how heroes always kind of die on c really conveniently, like you know, you say, you say the really heroic thing, and then you just drift off where I always imagine what would be like if it took another twenty four minutes.

That's that's all I got. I got nothing else for you, Clark. It as beautiful as that. That shot is of the Hawkman cow there I found there their shot of I guess Africa amusing where it's like these camels, like okay, sure that looked like animation to me, like like I don't I don't even know if it was like a real shot of something. But uh, they're often some temple somewhere in Egypt, and they're going to where Shira is,

I had to laugh. This is the second Superman TV Show podcast left on this week. I was recorded with Anthony earlier on this week, and that episode was Star of Faith where they also go to stock footage of camels in Egypt and Georgia Leaves picks up the pyramid, and I was like, oh, what's the likelihood in both episodes seventy six years Apartment.

Goes to locations, goes to the location, but it's not just then. So the in the white shot, you see Impulse and you see Martian Mander. But then they have an overhead shot and you see all come in. He's got his hood up. You see Cyborg. You don't really see you kind of see his shoulder, sees a ton of back there, we see something. So these are all stand ins, right, But I appreciate the fact, like, hey,

And he's not wearing a blue shirt he's wearing, right, Is it is?

It is?

It is blue. It's like a baby blue.

Yeah, but it is not. Maybe it's the lighting there in this place, but it doesn't look like great vibrant. It looks great. No one's ever gonna see it.

I thought, you look, I really thought he he just looked like Superman. You know, sounds costume obviously, but he just looked like Superman off the page. I thought he really looked great.

Well, they started to like dabble with the island his hair as well when he's in when he's in the Blorder costume. So that helps with the supermanler too. And you know that that Shira helmet and her weapon used to be in that museum. But I guess the museum closed after Absolute Justice, I don't know, or maybe after Carter Hall die. They said they're taking all your stuff.

I I dunked on the soundtrack earlier on I said the music was crap. I thought the music for the funeral scene was okay. It was pretty good. It sounds like kind of a soft rock song or something the generic stuff like. But I just thought I thought it was all right.

City Lights by Paulton Edge.

Up Ah, that means that means nothing to me.

It never made it on one of my small bl mix CDs, but that was fair enough.

He says, nothing says pyramids like city Lights.

But it's you know, it's a somber moment right with black Harry and Stargirler come from each other, and then you know, what, what's that? What's what's We're in Egypt, there's a pyramid coming out. Is this part of the is this part of the funeral procession? That's part of the No, it's not. It's some device put there by the government, I guess, to wipe out all the superheroes.

Nuts.

Yeah, I mean, what a cliffhanger, y'all. I hope they're okay. I don't know, like this didn't really do it much for me. I'm just gonna say, for a cliff.

How long on average would you have to wait? I just can't remember how long would you have to wait?

About six weeks or so. Usually came back, you know, into January, beginning February something like that.

I always have a problem in these scenes where it's like the entire Justice Let you get knocked out, and it happens a lot on the cartoon where they'll all get knocked out by like electricity or something like that, including Superman, and I meanwhile, you just have a human character there, like Lois or Batman, and she is also knocked out, and you're like, if that thing was strong enough to knock out Superman, do you.

Think they should have ended this? Do you think it's a strong enough cliff hanger? I was wondering after I watched it. Should they have ended this maybe with Lowe's going out the window or no.

Generic as an episode, that's fine, right. My problem is, like Luthor the previous episode, like it ends with with the only fourth wall break in the history of Smallville and arguably the greatest fourth wall break of all time. It's it's Earth two line of Luther has And you know I talked about last week time, Right, that's a strong statement. I stand by that statement.

Oh wow, because that's John Glover saying I want to see how it all turns out that one, Yes, because all time.

He's talking to you, the viewer, because you've been watching small ovivirgineers. Don't you want to see how it all turns out? And he opens his umbrella and he goes through the crowd. Oh my god, Lionel's back shows in what's called mag I do want to see how it all turns out. I'm fired up bringing on small to this. I'm like, what what just happened? Like I just and then part of it might be I know that Collateral. The next episode is the one they're like in the

I didn't know that.

Yeah, No, I didn't love it. That's what I was trying to I was trying to think to myself afterwards, is there is there a better cliffhanger with what was in the episode that they could have kind of left it on? But maybe not?

No, No, See, Smallville didn't do cliff fingers like that. Alan Like it's unless like every now and then probably maybe like a third of the season finales were like a pick it up with the next shot, you know, but episode episode they always had like their their you know epilogue like you know a kind of stuff, And it was never like a do we continue unless it was a premiere of finale, sometimes a two parter so.

O Slave Were You Married?

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All new episode this Friday at eighty seventh Central.

Up a very Street Echanti, They said.

He wanted, so what are you mad? Super mad yet?

Oh?

And what if my soulmate comes along and I'm too blind to see it?

Just follow your heart and you'll always do the right thing.

I'm mad.

Past, My world needs your clack.

What about what we need? Man need.

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More than two hours of special features the final season of Small on Blue Ray and DVD November twenty nine, and on the Complete series collection on DVD.

Icorous got an eight point seven out of ten on IMDb, and Douglas Trumble from the Superman homepage g at a four out of five.

So ty on.

The letter grade scale, y'all, Alan, let's start with you. What would you give vigorous.

On the letter grade scale? So I would probably give it a B minus. I thought, look, overall, if you're if you're revisiting this, it is kind of a filler exposition, kind of an episode, you know, mid season, not a hell of that happens throughout. But when I sat down and watched it last night, I enjoyed it. It flew by. I enjoyed the characterizations. I enjoyed the story of it. I enjoyed the proposal and all that stuff to it. Yeah.

Be minus, I would agree with all of that. To be honest, I'm also being minus. I think it pushed the plot of the season along nicely enough, and there was a lot of kind of clunkiness in some of some of the logistics of the riding and stuff like that, but it didn't bother me too much. It was only really watching it the second time when I was kind of going back and think of it.

Certain stuff but still.

Really stuck out, like it is not a remarkable episode, but I think just the inclusion of Hawkman doing as much Hawkman stuff as he does, as impressively as they do it, and then the proposal happening, and you know, as we said, like seeing all the Justice League together, even though not all of them play a role in the episode, just stuff like that they committed to the assignment. And I don't really care for this storyline at all.

You know, I was gonna give it a B minus, but since both of y'all did, I'm gonna go with C plus now, just to give us some variety. Just being so steeped in the season as I am, I'm like, eh, you know, so, I'm very happy that you guys liked it as much as you did, and I don't dislike it. You know, C plus is above average, But the proposal stuff was great. Death stroke is as bad and not

Right?

Hawkman? I I did. I did enjoy all Hawkman's things. He was one of the stronger guest heroes on smavel. I think, you know, when people think about I think everybody's I don't know, you have a strong I don't know if you guys have strong opinions about this. But when people think about, oh, who's the best, like guest hero in Smallville, Green Arrows not on the table because he became a main cast member. But I think everybody says the flash they were impulse. I think that's everybody's

So do you think it was a case that he didn't want to wear or do you think it was a case that they tried to hold back on a little bit so that they wouldn't there'd be more of a maybe a chasm between this and the Superman suits and the finale.

I just think they weren't really sure how to use it. I mean, he should have been wearing it in this episode, like when in that scene where he confronts Slate at the end, he's just wearing streat clothes, like what are you doing? But he can go wear for this funeral though, So I don't know. It's it's it's I'm fascinated's one of it's I'm fascinated by it. And that's why I made it a tally board. And we're gonna continue to hear me ransom for the rest of the rest of

Yeah, I think so.

So in some redemption for Cat Grant maybe, I don't know. I'll keep that in mind next time I see her. I think she I think she only has one more episode. I think it's Booster, the Booster Gold episode.

So the little Booster Gold episode.

Yeah, I better like her in that one because I'm pretty sure I've been talking to Jef Johns about that on the podcast, it was like, who wrote this character? This is awful.

Booster Gold episode always reminds me of Chris Simms reviewing the finale when Olie looks up and see Superman fly by and he's like, come on, Clark, and Chris Sims was like, why did he know that was Clark? Why didn't he assume that was Booster Gold because he's the only flying hero in this universe at that point.

Yeah, because he doesn't know Clark can fly. Yeah, exactly, Well that's gonna do it for this episode. But guys, a lot of fun talking episodes. Fut so great to have you both on here at the same time. If people want to find you out there and whatever order you guys want to promote yourselves, take it away.

We are All Star super Fan Podcast. We're on all the socials, Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram. Twitter is Allstar super Pod on Facebook and Instagram are All Star super Fan And yeah, we have a bunch of episodes. You have appeared on quite a number of them and some really really cool kind of compires and episodes where we look at different Superman episodes and across across the eighty five year.

Multimedia legacy of the Man of Steel.

We talk about all sorts of fun stuff, and we've also done some ridiculed interviews with actors and writers and creators from Superman related things.

Awesome what he said.

It's been great, Zich, thanks so much for having us on. Really really thirtally enjoyed it. And I have to say, like I said, watching the Bench episode a few months ago, for what was being my appearents of that episode, and then watching this again, really enjoyed getting back to the show and getting back into it. You know, it's always and I think it's just before in the back of

Absolutely I will echo all that. And I think as much as I have a litany of issues with the show, I think there is something beautiful about the fact that they were able to mine ten years out of Superman's argent.

I think that's really really cool.

Yeah, and Zach just need to say this again one more time. You have been such a supporter of our show, and we really really appreciate it. And I think it is safe to say that your show is one of, if maybe the best Superman.

Podcasts out there.

Absolutely, so a hearty congratulations to you for making it this far. And I can't wait to see how it all turns out.

Well.

No, I appreciate it that guys. I yeah, definitely, you know, I enjoy all's content, so I definitely want to rebroadcast it. And you know, we have a lot of friends to do this, and I'm glad we've kind of had this community that we can all kind of be on each other shows and it's all we're all part of the same team, right, So that's that's the fun of it, right, So these are fun times for real times. I not gonna believe it when it's over, probably, but but here we are.

So I gotta be real with you, though, Man, if you do under tune a Heroes podcast, I don't know how far I'm making it. In and rewatch the show Devny season one. After that, I'm not sure.

Tease that so many times, and I feel obligated maybe at some point to do it. But we'll see, we'll see, look forward to it. All right, Well, let's gonna do