Episode 206 - 10x10 Luthor

I'm John Glover. I was Lionel Luthor on a Smallville and I will always always hold on to Smallville, and I hope you all do too.

Welcome to always hold on to Smallville. In this podcast, we talk about each in every episode of the Young Superman show that ran from two thousand and one to twenty eleven on the WB and the CW. I'm your host, Zach Moore, and I'm joined by a very old Lionel Luther. He's back from Earth too, Matthew Roca. What's up? Roca? Looks like I'm back in the nick of time exactly? Is that not the greatest fourth wall breaking of all time? Right?

Rewatching that, I was like, oh wow, man, this is some Shakespeare, This is some Richard the Third. John Glover must have been having a blast doing that.

Yeah, it's funny to say that. So we're talking about Luther obviously, and who else could I have but you on this episode? And uh O, great to have you back on the show. And so I recently went to the Lutha Smallville Convention, the first annual Smallville Convention, and how Sean Glover was there and everybody had panels and he had panel and he was talking about someone asked him about coming back, you know, for season ten. He's like, well, you know, all the good writers had left by then,

Now.

I mean he's eighty years old, God bless him, right, yeah, and he's on he's on Instagram and he's eighty years old and I have him on Instagram and it's like what but he is just he just tells it how it is, you know, his thought like that's the unfilteredness is so adorable as well, and he's like, oh, well you know why probably you know, so he felt about saying that, but that was that was how he felt about it because and I do understand where he's coming

I love that I've heard him say the same thing about just like even Lionel at his most evil in regular Earth one Linel like that he's so nuanced, and he felt like Earth two Linel was just like one dimensional mustache swirler, evil kind of thing, and it's like I feel the same way as you. It doesn't make it any less enjoyable, and in fact, I think kind of like his more one note evil as this Linel.

He manages to do that, you know, like he is the best actor on this show. Yeah, start to finish. She's the best main cast. Remember, he's the best guest star. He's totally like he's in a league of his own. I mean, it's incredible, right, and so he's such a resource, and so to have him back just just I mean I was because you know, when you watch his back in the day in season ten, it had been three

That's totally how I felt too. Rewatching it, I was like, man, this is just so much fun, Like it's like this is this is it's so it's so fun, and it was. It was like the whole the whole thing just felt like it was nostalgic in the best possible way. Where it was it was nostalgic for the Luthers, reminding us of the the like sort of golden era, if you will,

No, I mean, it's it's interesting that it took him this long to do this. Yeah, I mean this is the last season. Like, well, I guess we'll do like a barrel universe like that, because that's like sci fi one on one, like parrel universes. Right, And but you're right, it would not have fit in any other era of the show, but but this one and we'll we'll talk about that as we do. But yeah, you were there

Say, like, Okay, I was going to ask you if you knew if there was anything else contractually or something or whatever, because it does seem weird that like, like, yes, it's true about like okay, what if he doesn't come back? But at the same time, I feel like they had to have almost had some degree of like, well, he is going to come back, because otherwise you're really pushing Luthor's storylines so much and if he didn't come back, it would have been really disappointing.

We we were this close, I know, we were this close to not having Now that's what's like if if Lazarus the first episode, like yeah, there was talk and as Craig Burnam krypton Site has communicated to us and to me, they were like, oh, yeah, well Michael's going to come back for this, like that was the episode was written with that in mind, which makes perfect sense. And I'm like, because it gives you that a little bit.

Yeah, I mean imagine just you saying that kind of gives me chills imagining. And by the way, I love the actor who played last year. Yeah, yeah, the one from Cyborg and it's you know, he's great and did a really good job as creepy old Lex like.

Twenty years older. It's so funny rewatching it, I was like twenty like should we have said like fifty years old? Because I know I was thinking that.

Too, because I like when we're I mean, when we're younger, like twenty years older seems so much more, you know, probably when we were younger, like watching the show, like oh, twenty years old. But yeah, it's like when you rewatch, it's like my ex girlfriend is twenty two years older than me.

She doesn't look that like that. Well, you see Michael Rosebam today and like that's him now, Like it's doesn't look like a different person. Dude, he's like fifty now and he looks so young. He looks great. But I just saw an interview with him too.

Oh.

I was just gonna say.

The thing that gave me chills was picturing him though, delivering those lines in Lazarus, Like picturing Michael Rosenbaum doing the.

Weard on your chest, the scarlet letter and all that happening.

No, but it's like I just saw an interview with him. You probably saw it too, where he was talking about I guess the politics of the money and the things of the show like for him, and and how he likes to talk.

To about that a lot, doesn't. Yeah, he does.

He was he said, I guess that what was his name, I think something rot. I forget what his first name.

Was, Yes, Peter.

I think it was. I think he was talking about him. Uh, and he he really just played. He was like saying he didn't like the guy and blah, blah blah. And he never talked to him. I mean, the guy never talked to him, like during almost the whole show. And then he towards you know, the end of season seven, like when his contract he stayed longer than his contract was supposed to be, and then he's like, mister Roth wants.

To have dinner with you.

And he's like, oh, he never has talked to me this whole time. And he goes ahead and he's like you gotta stay, you gotta stay, Michael, blah blah blah. And Michael's like, you know, if you give me an offer, you know, I probably won't do it still because artistically I want to do other things, but like I'll think

Like yeah, and I think, you know, and as you get older, right, you understand why people make the decisions they make, right, I mean, especially working in the industry and very as storms as we have and do. It's like, yeah, I never want to work with that person. Get done and all right, Like I will never work on a project with this person. I totally understand that. Or conversely, oh, yeah, this guy's on it. Whatever it is, I'm there right.

Can you imagine like the I think the one big miss opportunity, and it was probably a scheduling thing or timing or whatever, but like if they you know, they brought Michael back, right, and they managed to pull that off, and then they also had Glover back, and if they had a scene together in the finale too, that would have been so epic, like.

It would have I don't know what it would have been, but just to see the two of them together, Lex kills him again. Now, well yeah, see, I mean that's the thing. What do you what do you even do at that point? Right? So I kind of that is the greatest missed opportunity of those two. I mean there's a lot of missed opportunities serious finale, So I'm not gonna say that, but it isn't we all wanted that again, but but we we love what we had with them for years. I mean, they had some of the best

When I think of season ten, I kind of glamorize it a little in my head, Like I think of all the cool stuff we've been talking I think about all the Luther stuff. I think about Clark becoming Superman, like the returns, like the return of Jonathan, the return of Martha, like you know, all of that, the nostalgia him and Lois, like their relationship really blossoming into the iconic relation. Like that's all the stuff I think about. I kind of like, uh, choose to forget about the other?

Well, yeah, I mean the episodes I've rewatched over the years are I mean the ones I'm talking about like Homecoming, Luther can't down the Road, like like the Earth two stuff just a plug and that gives us, oh yeah, iin ol back and so there's so much of that.

Like season It's it's like season like like I feel like the same way. I feel kind of like Season nine is like Season three in the sense that they have a very cohesive arc. There's kind of a strong continuity between episode to episode and callback and you know, like it's all very well thought out and you can really see that on the screen. And I and like, because of all the stuff we've talked about, like all the fun stuff in season ten, it's still like like

I guess my new my new conversation is like, which is better season ten or season eight? I think that'll be.

My Oh my gosh, that's a good one. That's really interesting because eight started so strong and.

Then it went this season eight A is so good, but a B is this by even though it's a couple of great steps. I mean, uh, Lesion is great, Hex is great, right yeah, oh yeah, totally that's it, and H in the second half of season. So I don't know, like that's well, those are the fun conversations to have down the road. But but here we are

Everything is different.

It's darker. Did you stay away from you? Clark?

He'm so afraid of me. It's like a parallel reality.

I am your father.

I alone raised joke in my own image.

Clark Wilther Smallville All New episode Friday, de Summer third and eight, seventh Central on the CW Luther. It's the tenth episode of Smallville's tenth season. It aired on December third, twenty ten. Was written by Ryan Q. Miller and directed by Kelly Sounders. Now Kelly Sounders, she's been writing for the show with her writing partner Brian Peterson for years since season two, and she's one of the executive producers now of the show. Right, I love this is the

Yes, yes, very muted color palette. Very It almost feels like we're going from like classic Metropolis in Earth one to like got them Yeah, oh us, you know, like it's just it's it's really you didn't.

Need to have some like Earth two super at the bottom that showed you you show, don't tell it's a visual media, you get it. Yeah, it's not a different space. But but but you know, she did.

It's interesting that Kelly like the first time director credit thing, because there must be something about the Luthers that just bring out the artistic brilliance and first time directors because Miles Miller back with memorial.

Right, Lionel may bring out the worst in people, but the Luthers bring out the vest in the directing of the show. But but ratings watch Okay, So the last episode, Patriot, it aired a couple of weeks before. There was a break before, you know, for Thanksgiving. And that's that's also interesting because Smallville usually only had maybe one episode in December, right, but no, there's two. This is not the mid season finale. I mean it should have been, but it would have

It's like, it's like people like even casual fans who haven't been watching as much, they probably see like a preview and they're like, oh, Linyl's back, what like, yeah, I want to check that out's yeah, Like you know, So the episode starts out and all right, let's just let's just let's just rip this fan ad off.

What what what the is going on with the Verrettas window because the the episode starts out with the with the loot with the season one through six stained Glass Window of the l Witch, which had previously reappeared at the end of Abandon when Test finds out she's a Luther. It's it's kind of like the reverse shot of that. That's what's so interesting that there's like, yeah, there shouldn't have been an episode in between these two, like Patriot,

Don't even understand, like the like with with the other one, with the you know, the first appearance of it, at least it's like, Okay, this is what they're trying to do, even though it's like really goofy right, like they're trying to pretend like it's always been there, which is so silly. But I don't even get what they're trying to do right now.

It's it's all the other earth too when we get there. Anyway, this is my this is my favorite thing of this show to just rant about.

Yes, if they were gonna do this whole v thing in general, it's it's an idea that just came to me.

Instead of like a L slash V. Because I know, we're like we're like half an hour in we're talking about the first shot. We have to though, because because Test sits down and it's right behind her head, it's the I just this is unacceptable. But anyway, Test is at her desk and h who is simply credited as Luther Lawyer walks in Actres's name is Linda Coe. She looked familiar. She's an NSA official on the Flash in

And I was thinking that too. I was like, whoa, if your tests, that lady's fired. That's why that's why I never saw her again. I forgot that this episode, rewatching it that this was. I forgot that it was because I haven't rewatched the later seasons and long in like a while, and I forgot that it took this long to realize that she's the illegitimate daughter of Lionel.

Yeah. I mean it took about a third of the way in to reveal it and then a couple more to tell everybody.

Yeah, which is really interesting. Like because because when she first appeared on the show and season eight, I think we all just assumed that she was like, you know, miss test marker tests, that she was like.

Mercy Gray Lex's lover. Yeah exactly, Yeah, yeah, Like this works so much better though, Oh it really does. As much as I'm being angry about retcons, there's the thing to rec con objects that you see with your two eyes and then reccon like vague backstories of characters which can be cleaned up. Like making her a Luther makes everything click and makes so much like why why would

Sade Yes exactly exactly, and you know it really it really, it really does serve the character a lot. Her character really is starting with this, I mean this episode in particular, then going forward, like she serves the themes of the whole season and like the you know, the series in general, but really the whole season with the idea of like nature versus nurture.

Yeah, so in this box is well we always they don't really show it to us yet do they. It's like this, you open up this box. What's in the box? Right, and it's like something in this velvet bag and she's like and she's gonna open it, but then she gets a call from Clark. He's like, we have a lead maybe a Cadamists labs, and like text is like, because that's where you know, that's where she was healed and

It's probably like so many things in the show that you know, you've talked about so much on the podcast in terms of like obviously there's like a kind of a five yearsh plan, and they really didn't think they were going to go on as long as they did.

Clark says a meal due to final search and there's one body still on account of far LX one five and tests. Is like, oh, well, you know, just because he's Luther doesn't mean maybe he's not causing trouble at all. Maybe it's you know, maybe it's fine. And of course like no tests. It's in their blood. They're born that way. I'm like, damn, Clark, I understand, I understand why, because this is she is real. She's in a tough spot here because she's just found out she's Lionel's illegitimate daughter.

It makes sense from the episode standpoint, but it does seem a little bit, like you said, a little bit harsh and in context of the full series because of the fact that Clark like.

I'm never gonna leave you a little Alexander. I'll be there looking out for your evils in your blood. Uh, because even Tess is like, we'll have her to everyone deserving a second chance, which is the Superman, but Luther blood it's poison. But he must be behind this door. It's a lead only one lined with lead, right, which how did how did how did Lex know that Clark can't see through lead?

No, I don't mean that's that's a good question. That sounds like that sounds like a question for Eisenberg Lex.

Yeah, also true.

Yeah, the question I had in my head was like, maybe it's just not not rewatching season ten in a while, but like, what was okay, test is protecting little Lax all that stuff.

If Clark found him, though, like, what's he gonna what's the plan? Like, what's he gonna do with him? Clark's obviously gonna kill it because he's playing killed this little child. Well, Clark doesn't know that it's a it's a kid, like he doesn't. He just knows it's a Lex clone and somebody's been helping. Oh that's right, that's right. Yeah. Yeah. Well what's what's interesting is like, so at the end of Harvest, the kid who played Lex in season seven

Better that that makes that makes a lot of sense that that it's good because Okay, we always go back.

To this, but.

In the go ahead, in the finale, it's like, so we get Lex zero right, like Lex zero. I feel like still to this day, it's like there's still questions online about like so it is so Lex zero is basically like a Frankinson monster of Lex parts, right, But is Lex original the one that died in the truck the truck and if so, this is just a cobble together, you know, of all the parts.

That's what the show wants you to believe, and I don't like that. So I choose to believe that Lex zero was like Lex Prime. Yeah, and the one in the truck was like lex one, lex one or whatever. That's what I try to believe. They keep it just vague enough where it's like, ah, okay, but anyway, I'll have to say, I don't know what Clark's plan was with Lex here, but they show up and it's you know, it's a chessboard because of course there is this little cot and his old book and and thanks for the

I was like, dude, just like like I get it right, Like, but but Test has been your sort of ally for a while now, like let it let her explain, you know, even just.

Like, even after everything Oliver and I did for you, this is how you repaying us. And it's like, because Oliver has been very skeptical and Clark's like, no, no, no, give her a chance. Man. Yeah, it's not like she's a Luther or anything. I won't deserve second chances. But I under loook this is it's a little contrived, but I understand. Yeah it was. She's like, I was just trying to protect your trying to protect shelf, and he is true, He's right, yeah, yeah, it's like it.

Works for It's like, yes, he is jumping to conclusions, but it works for the situation and how you feeling. And that is just like a Clark trait anyway, about jumping the conclusion, so like it makes sense for the character.

You know, well, speaking of jumping to conclusion. So she drops her bag and then then we see this maybe the mirror box. What do you have this? She's like, wait, let me explain, Yeah, why would you? Why would you do that? She's like it's a Cartoni real, Like I just got it. I sure to god, I was gonna tell you she was. That's so sad, like she was, and it's legitimate questions why you have it? And she can't explain it yet because she doesn't want to say

I have a lot of replica props from back in the day, but I wish I had that.

That's a good one. That the Mirror Box. I'm like, okay, all right, okay, somebody watch Star Trek because this is very original series Star Trek. Mirror Mirror one of the most famous episodes of the original Star Trek. It kind of popularized we talked about Parallel Universe. That was one of the most mainstream ones about alternate universes and all that, and that's I think where a lot of the vibe and the vernacular comes from. That's really cool.

I did not know that actually that that was like one of the things that made it like more popular in mainstream like that, Yeah, that's really cool.

Which it's it's like us but just a little different, and I mean much like you know, Onyx in season four is the enemy within that episode of Star Trek where Captain Kirk is split into good and evil. That's that one, and then this one is clearly mirror mirrors. My Star Trek fan coming out here, check it out now. Yeah, so Test drops her bag, picks up the mirror box, and he just starts twisting, just ignoring what she's saying

That was like okay, it's like, yeah, you have weird, silly stuff like the the window, and then you get really cool stuff like that where it's in the same episode where it's like, wow, that's that's awesome.

That's a really cool callback. So he wakes up with a couple of your favorite characters of the show, right, Mandy and Bamby. We don't watch risk another audit. Oh but so so yeah, he wakes up and he puts his T shirt on. It's the ultraman T shirt, like look at you Smallville so cool. That was awesome. Yeah, that is an amazing loophole of like, well, we're not Superman, but he has been the Blur, he's got the well we'll give him the ultraman T shirt. I'm like, that's brilliant,

Yeah, which is that's cool, which is really like, yeah, it's interesting because it's like I remember a friend of mine who did He didn't really watch the show, but I was always talking to him about the show at nauseum in high school and stuff, and like he I remember him commenting when he you know, just see like previews and stuff like that for the later seasons, and he's like, you know, because sometimes he would make fun of the show, and he's like, you know, I got

It's like it's a different it's a different show that than than it used to be. Oh man, but there's this like slow reveal, like youau, you don't know where Clarky is really like he puts his clothes on, he's in a mirror, and then Lionel comes out of the shadows, right.

I love that, Like right away they got him doing his Linel thing, like, you know, him stepping out of the shadows, having his quote head and just I.

Live be alive. He's I can only live once? So like what a what a way to go? The opening curds like we knew, we knew he was coming back, but like what a perfect read or not? Because again he's dead, right yeah, establishes that he's not, and then calls him something like he calls Clark's son a lot but like what does this mean? Like Luther Men, Like what does this mean? Yeah, we Luther Men must seize our day. So good. And that's the thing, right because

It was always I remember that on Krypton say. It was always like speculation of, oh well, what if Clark was raised by Lionel. They even said it in the show, you know where, like the Kents would say, like you know, things like that, like you know, thank god we found you, or you know what if someone else like Lionel, and you know, all those kinds we didn't.

Find you, you found us. Actually, actually no, your your biological father was here like forty years ago and really liked it. And since you specifically here, that's the actual truth. But talk about a reccon anyway, So we go to the open credits, We come back and Clark is walking through the hallways of Luther Mansion with Lionel, the Ultraman Persona's genius. It's great with a strong arm. My opponents, right, he's like knop Son because his Ultraman shirt is showing.

I think so, right, because it's like like later on Clark has you know, Ultraman, Clark has that line about like, you know, I'm not used to it being lunch and not having blood on my hands, you know, Like it's like he literally just wakes up and goes out and kills people and does evil stuff. And Lionel couldn't be more proud any what any son would any father would want.

Now they go to the Luther Library here and damn it, the Veritas one was there as well. But you know what, they kind of mentioned the queens and the Swans and very I'm like, okay, well that's fine, Like I don't I'm not going to complain about this universe because that has an established contradictory this universe exactly, it could be this universe could have the v there the whole time.

Yeah, it's like and and Lionel's are like Tom Wellings, you know, we've we've talked.

About this before.

I think that he's really great with like he's really great with comedy, and but I think I think that his performance in these first few scenes, I think it's like underrated comedy, Like it's because it's it's not that they're playing it for comedy, but it's really funny because he's just like, what the hell is happening? And he's just trying to catch as Lionel's just so energetic and ready to go and ready to quote Marcus Aurelius and fence with Clark, well what is happening?

Then you know, Clark's default state is like confusion right on the show, like in general, and so it worked so well here because he's like I don't know really what's going at all? And we get some good again. The right actor can deliver exposition and you don't care because it's like, remember, I am your father, I alone raised you, Cork Ruth the Man of Tomorrow, and I'm like John Lover just just eating it, man, Oh it up completely. It's it's like, even though he thinks the bad writers a writing.

Oh man, this is the thing I've always said about him, and you really see it in this episode that I love that he's not as as an actor. He's not afraid to go too far, like he's not afraid to hamm it a and he does that so expertly, and he's still able to make the character human, you know, like he's he's the world's a stage, you know, he's just he's so theatrical and it's great.

It's amazing. I love how he says the Man of Tomorrow bringing back the whole I mean, was Lexus Logan in season one? Yeah, yeah, now let's let's talk about this now. Clark Luther. He should not be named Clark. That's like my one real complaint, me.

Too, me too, What would what would Lionel actually name it? It's definitely wouldn't be Clark obviously Julian. I mean, could this be Julian reassigned the name, yeah, Julian because they're so like it's Clark Can versus Clark Luther. I'm like, well, that's not an ultraman. Isn't even these either of these guys names so like they could have leaned into their mythology a little more.

Lucas Lucas that's the thing. Where is Lucas Luther? Like they have completely three children? I'm like, well, what about Lucas Luthor? Like even like I can on this earth, he didn't exist? Fine, yea, fine, got it? But in general, like, dude, like, where is he inheriting the mirror of box? Right? Where? Paul Wesley? Dude, you you're on Vampire Diaries. I can't just one. All they needed was one episode with you

Yeah, that really that's the only I mean, you know, other otherwise, continuity wise, the episode really mostly holds up so well besides like the window, but like that's the other thing is you.

Know, is the name. Yeah, I agree, Julian would have been. They just thought we were too dumb to not understand why he wouldn't be named Clark. Well, they'll be news. Yeah, but you know, Lionel has a line who's like I shuddered to think when happened to my Little Traveler, which I thought we were done with the Traveler, but like you know, Verita's window was right there, lean into it. Yes, it works, it works if he had been discovered in that field by the first ignorant farmer.

That came along, right, that's where we are line because it's like, for all the times the Kents have shuddered to think, what if Clark was found by Lionel or by a bad person in general, or you know, someone who wouldn't be supportive, you know, and they've always had that worry. It was so fun to see from the villain's perspective. You know, from Lionel's perspective, his fear would be Clark being found by.

Good, good people. It's so good. But this form where on Earth would you be now? And then like Clark's like, oh, the farm, and so he goes to the farm. I have a I have a connuity. No, it's not really a deal breakers with throughout there's a big signs a farm auction July twenty eighth. I'm like, okay, yeah, the

Right?

Yeah? Exactly, because like remembering Apocalypse and alternate Earth, like the other that other kid who's named Clark Kent, which shows you, no matter what happened, they would have named a kid Clark Kent right, much in the same way that Lionel should not have named this so Clark. It's just funny because Clark is just so like, dude, get get up to speed. So he goes upstairs to talk to Test and let me say, you know, I have I've kind of fallen in love with Cassidy Freeman rewatching

Oh yeah, she's she's I always I always had a little touch on her right from when she started on the show. And then it's just continued, yeah she's uh, yeah, she's she's great, and it was it was so fun to see the the like frisky in this yeah.

Like you know, and oh you love to keep me waiting, huh. And then later on and then worth too, Clark is like, oh, I love to keep you waiting. So they gotta think it's like this. I mean, it's this, it's this taboo thing, right because it's like he's like, well, last time I checked, you're still adopted, and my half it's like, oh, but that's what's kind of like it's wrong. That's what makes it like interesting. Yeah, it just it just goes with the ft up lu this universe is best off, right,

For some reason, it reminds me, you know, when he's like this gus like trying to piece it together and he's like, wait, you're a Luther, like, you know, figuring it out out loud like that. It just reminds me of one of my other favorite Clark trying to figure something out out loud moments. The way back in season four when Lana's like upset because she thinks Clark got Jason fired and all that stuff.

It was like you and Jason, yeahs again confusion, that is his standard gear. But she said, well, where's your scar? At least your scar? He doesn't have what is a scar we're gonna find out in a second, but he doesn't have a scar. He's like, what's that about? Right? So it turns and tests like, oh, he tells me about this mirror box and then he says he can't find it. And I can't believe I ever thought it'd worked with us. Like, so they had you know, Clark

And it's cool because it really does put Clark the Earth one Clerk. It gives him more uh empathy for like what Lex had to go through too, Like it's seeing, Oh, I could have become just as bad, if not worse, you know, than Lex did if I was raised this way. And like that's a really interesting you know kind of I'm always a fan of when they when they give Clark more layers of empathy and understanding as he becomes superman like, as he becomes less judgmental.

Luther blood is poisoned, they're born like, well, no, it's good. He needed this to course correct because he had his pinch and swung all the way around. So this experience gets him back where he needs to be. But yeah, this is he keeps guessing and Tests is like, are you really this naive in your world because you can't

You mean you mean oh, you mean like is Earth too Test killed? Yeah, but oh wow, that's.

A great if she's in kn't again, So I don't, I don't know, it's less left Ambigo.

Wow, that's I didn't even think that. That's a really good question. I mean, he certainly this Lionel certainly wouldn't hesitate, even even Earth one Lionel was about to kill Lucas.

So I'm not get you knew anyway, but but this is important next. But it makes sense that Test would know this because her and Club Luthor raining on it together and she explains like, oh, yeah, the your kinder gentle world is about to get an explosive awakening because we've switched place, so that this tells Clark what's going on. And I'm still I'm waiting. I'm like, when are we going to see Ultra Man on Earth? Because like, so

Yeah, like he you would think you'd see him right there at Cadinets, right.

Yeah, But then you know, we can't can't get the setup we get later, so we cut to Metropolis and hey, credit to them. The production value is great here they add Luthor Corp To everything. Luthor Corp Media is the Daily Planet. Everything's gray and dark and like that, like do you really feel like this is a true alternate universe? Right? And I respect that, like because they don't have they don't have a lot of budget in season ten, but they're doing what they can with their flags and their

It's like and and really it also really highlighted, like seeing Luther Corp everywhere, Like that really highlighted to me. In Earth one, we have Clerk and lex and and Clark was to stop and this is what wo exactly exactly, this is what it would be right like.

But then Lois runs into him in her nineteen seventies car. I maybe, I mean that is that a thing about? Because you know what the did you watch the eroverse some I don't know how much I think I think I saw well, I think I did see a couple of episodes a couple of ya. No, it's I know

Why, but yeah, I could see that in a way, kind of like like in BTAS. So it's like, yeah, the cars look like the forties universe. Yeah, the hyper time reality of the forties and eighties.

Anyway, I like that. I like product I like it intentional production design like that. And so they did this here, yeah, and so well, let's runs into in this car. She's like if all the people were into and then he fixes the bumper with his hands, like very cute. I love those small displays of power. But we get Clark, dude, she's not your wife or not say her girlfriend here, dude, Like, get with it, man, because Walas, Oh my god, so

It was like interesting the different look like that, and to see like the whole him and Lois of it all. I think it's really interesting too because it's like me and my mom talked about this like back in the day in season six when it was you know, Lois and Oliver and stuff, like we always were like, wow, you know, if there wasn't Clark, like, we would really ship them like they're great.

Oh yeah, I ship all over with tests, I ship Oliver the Lewis, I've started to ship all over less with Chloe though honestly, I mean, I mean that's that's a turnaround I've had over rewatching the show because I'm like, you guys, him and Lois and him and the tests are these great like foundation and I like, yeah, just romantically Chloe and all of her, Like I.

Don't it's I guess in a way it makes sense because it's like if he's not if he can't be with Lois, then who's the most like Lowis?

Well, yeah, that's for sure, right. But then also on the flip side, if she can't be with Superman, she can be with this universe as Batman. That's how I saw it when I was, you know, watching for the first time. So well, good for you, Chloe, you be okay, you did it op crazy or dead or whatever and all the things like tease. But now I'm like, like, in concept, I like it, but like I'm like, I don't know, y'all. Hears so much better chemistry with these

I was gonna say yeah, But probably the big difference is there's definitely no beating up and bullying. I certainly Clark Luther, Yeah, certainly don't think so.

So he's the one being the bully. So he also says, you know all the things, what have you done to make this world have been a place? Like that's Oliver's kind of It's interesting like in every universe, Oliver is giving Clark crap about that. So that I know tracks but no, I I in the background of the scene,

Is?

I thought it was funny that the guy thought, I mean, it's funny, but also revealing of the Ultraman character that he thought he was going to kill him for that.

You know Clark again, Sony, were you so Afraie Clark? Why do you think people are afraid of all ultramat But he said because no, but he lives to see ultra man's face. I'm like, oh, well that makes sense, Like there's a secret identity. If he sees you, he's gonna kill you, Yeah, to maintain a secret identity. And he's like, why don't turn me into a murderer. I'm like, yeah, yeah, you're right. But but you know what I found really amusing.

Yeah, that was awesome. The transitions are really great and the episode like good taking us from one earth to the other is really awesome.

We can only assume that Clark Luthor super sped to that spot after he was a cadmus. I don't I don't get it, but uh, anyway, but it's a cool. Oh we see the scar the Luther crest from that opening shot of the wind. Yeah, that's why Roka, that's why they've like, well, we can't have the V and that that's a little complicated. We got a simplify it. Well, should we just switch it out? No, no, that would be dumb. Let's just let's just have two, Like okay, anyway,

And I also thought it was really you know, they have great chemistry. And it was also I thought really funny that, like you could tell Tests was like into it, like Earth one.

Test was into it. She was like yeah, well at first she was like okay, okay, of course she's in love with Clark, and as Lionel says that he is a god, of course you love Clark yes, yes, he is a god and you are a whore with a Magdalene complex. I would just laughed him too good for you test. And then Clark's like, I like making you wait, So it's there. It's there. It's whatever game they have on the other earth. And he thinks this is his tests.

And she does a great job of playing those different layers so that the audience sees what's going on in her head, you know, but that it's like it's it's an interesting thing as an actor to play like subtly, I'm not trying to show my cards. I'm not trying to give it away, you know how she and she's she does a good job of that. I think when she's like, you know, trying not to give it away with ultramat.

Now she noticed this. His scar still bothers you. Lecture knew how to leave an impression. Huh, there's no take backs with gold k. I'm like, all right, cool gold kryptonite, gold kryptinite. They established that on Earth too, and then comes back around on this Earth plus two for ryite. Well, well we don't see it though, right, so I guess we shouldn't we and we do see it will count when we see it, we'll count. But let's let me let me ask you about ryptonite Rocca for a minute.

That's a good question, Like, yeah, that's a really good question. How how would that work? What is the what I'm trying to remember? What is the reset?

Is there? Like, what's the Well, no, it's it's there. There are no take backs, that's it. Yeah. So then thinking thinking about the series finale, remember when Oliver has the gold crib knit ring and close. Oh Yea's so ridiculous. I'm like, this is them not understanding krystin. They think. I've watched Lord of the Rings the night before, and like this is like the the one ring and if you you put it on, it's like the red cryb Knight Ring and blue one of the most frustrating episodes

I Yeah, that's that's really interesting when you think of all the different forms of kryptonite that they've done on the show, like it's interesting to think how like how far it's it's come into the again with that with the comic book territory thing, like in terms of just having so many Kryptonites and all these different things they

Well, yeah, because if you think back, I mean they had green and Red, they introduced black, and there was like a one off, two off thing, and of course then they brought it back in season eight. Yeah, then silver crypto night but Brinia came up with that, but they're like, okay, we're gonna stop there. I'm like, okay,

Well, interestingly, it raised the question for me, why has Clark Luther not killed Lionel.

Because he's not a true Luther. He's not the strongest. I am the I am the strongest.

Well that's true, because Lionel says that about you know, no true some would have let me live this long, right, there.

Is something to be said about that. Firs shou Is this episode in the next one makes ultraman this like unsympathetic bastard. There is a redemption for him at the end, and I'm like, I don't know how I feel about that, but I'm like, okay, like the fact that he didn't do that, I'm like, huh, maybe some good to your point.

Later on Lionel has that line where he's like, you know, don't lie tests, you're not any good at it, and I was like, I'm thinking she's pretty good, Like well that test, that's the that's why the opposite is right. But Clark Luther wants the box.

I'm called Ultraman, right, call hi ultramat because when else are we gonna get use those names? So Ultraman wants to box and uh, Tests is like, oh let me uh let me go on a mansion and and I'll get it and then we can then we can celebrate. I'm like, oh yeah, all right, all right test because if he just if Clark the ultra man, his plan is we destroyed the box, then they can't send us back. And I'm like, okay, that makes their motivation. They don't

Yeah, so there there there's even as evil as Ultraman is, there is a little bit of sympathy for that motivation, you know, like just escaping Lionel.

Yeah, So Ultraman goes on his way and we getnother close up a test like, oh my god, screwed. Uh now this is a I totally forgot the scene. This is an honorable scene. Lois is gonna get some coffee on her day off call from Test and Mercier. No, of course not. Don't take any work calls on your day off, That's what Lois says. So she she goes to this uh verista. She's like, regular black coffee. You can tell. The guys like huh, Like what what a cheap Oh? She's like, I don't quit your day job

I know that was great, Like it's just it's fun to see Lois just on her day off, just doing Lois things blissfully unaware of how you know, how weird everything's gotten in the episode.

So it's like, are you Lowis Lane, She's like, who wants to know? And then it's Tasha Lane, I'm calling you. It's for a reason you need to get to watch right now because obviously she's watched over now so she saw her on a security camp, obviously made her credit card get climbs using that power. Lois gives this guy his phone back and he's like, oh, nice to meet you. Blewis so like that was just a nice like you

It's a little a lot of times we're more just like, Okay, get to the next pop point like kind of thing. And it's fun when they have those little moments. It just like just a little fun character moment like that, you know.

Yeah, but she gets up there and uh tests all these screens and it's just like, well, uh, I con frown her technology if you think that all, because what she what she gonna do to help? Right? Yeah, this is I can't I can't get in contact with the team. You can see you see Oliver, you see Barts in the background, Like Okay, even though it's frustrating, we're never gonna see half these people again. For example, at.

Least there's yeah, exactly, they're still out there.

Yeah, like yeah, well that's that one was so funny about like like isis? For example that episode, I said, I wasn't gonna say the name of Yah, but I'll up here because like Hawkman, dude, that's totally Hawkman's fault. I'm like, dude, you're you're escavating this site. You lost the necklace of Isis? Dude? What do you do it? And they try to call him that he's unanswered. But that's good on you show, because if they hadn't called Hawkman, I'd be like, dude, why don't you call Hawkman? This

Exactly like but you know, it would have been funny if on one of the cameras you saw just a little batsymbol.

Oh no, well that's right. A billionaire with wonderful toys, right, and a wondrous woman who'll throwy for loop. One of my most hated lions of the show. You probably like it, don't you. You probably like that. I nerd out. It's ridiculous, but it's great. I just like got just just don't act like they exist. Don't have Chloe, say a lion from eighty nine to tell me Batman exists, you know what I'm saying. But they do in season eleven. There it is so Clark Luthor. You know, he got himself

That was really like I really like the dramatic, you know in the editing, the the silence that followed that moment, because usually I feel like there's those type of moments like you know, Clark throws someone and you know he does this and that, and there's like like the sound effects and the music and but this was like really emphasized the scariness of it. That is like bam and then silence, deadly silence as he's looking.

Even his complete, even his complete just disregard for Loa. She's like, oh, Clark, this is some kind of red k episode we can work on. He just picture up and throws her. Yeah, I'm like this is like like violence is well.

Really emphasized what a monster ultraman is and there's there's zero connection because there wouldn't be with Lois, you know.

Yeah, and I think he just superheard them. He's like a remarkable which you can hear when you stop and listen. I'm like, oh, that's how you found out of what's going on? Right, Yes, so he keeps fit this. This is a character tick that he has which comes into play in the next episode that he's in, which they plant the seats for it. Here he has his ring and he keeps filling with it. Yeah, because you know people have like jewelry and the like. He has his

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I agree. I agree, Yeah, yeah, that's a great ranking.

I agree.

And it's fun to see just completely uninhibited Ultraman. Uh you know, yeah, he liked you know, he had his fling with Tests in Earth too, but he's totally ready to kill her if she doesn't do what he wants.

Like, yeah, I believe, and I believe. You've seen his brutality and his reputation in the Other Earth, so you know he'll do it. Yeah, he's Ryan P. Thrusts. So uh. Then we go to a commercial. We come back right on Earth too. We're in Lionel's office as we find out, and and Tess is going through the Veritas journals, rips out a page of the Mirror Box, a new page of the I love like keep adding these pages? Was

The two of them played so so well off of each other, and like she Cassidy did does such a great job of just showing her heartbreak and you know, you like trying trying to be tough and trying to do you know, but but like just how sad she is that Lionel is just so cruel to her and dismissive, and you know, John Glovery is just so heartless in the scene. It's great because it's like you really see as evil as earth One Lionel is, you know, and it was until his whole redemption, you know, I.

Feel like a lot of.

Yeah, he did still love Lex in his twisted way, and he even with an illegitimate son like Lucas, you know, I mean he was ready to kill him, but like but he and he tried to kill him.

I love that scene. So he should have just killed him. He should have killed They might as well have killed him.

If they killed him, then they wouldn't have to worry about continuity. Like but but even when he's like manipulating Lucas, let's say, there's still a lot of guile and charm, like false charm and like I'm just gonna tell this kid what he wants, you know, and pretend to be a nice dad or whatever, like even though he's just my bastard son and I don't really care where is

Yeah, and he knows everything about what's going on. So it's funny he comes in here the the the Veritas book is a jar. So oh doing research for for that ill advised coup. It's a great tragedy. You and your brother are playing. Yes, I know all about that, Like, so he knows that. I buy it. Man, he's he's boundering everybody. I mean, this is how he's got to stay on top. Yeah, he's got to know what's going on.

Oh, I feel like that had to have been like an intentional not intentional Yeah maybe maybe, I mean yeah, but seeing it just made me think of that. I know they've talked about that before, so I can just see Lionel monologue clipping away, which again one of the missed opportunities John Shay lex one of the clones.

We talked about that before, all these clones. Why is John Shane I want to Oh my goodness, man, he was doing you next. You can do that, you can do small realize Anyway, Lionel has that line to her about being a whore. Basically that's what he says, and she slaps him, like, hey, good for you. Test right, Well, that just makes what I have to do a whole lot easier than call security. And like, I think he's just had to execute it after this man, Like, I don't know if we see her again, test crazy. I

She really is cheated terribly by both Lionels and with universes, like in different ways.

You know, talk about Leani into the comics though more roka, like they should have just had to be Lena Luther. I was gonna say, and like call Clark Julian and call her and Lena, But again, I think they don't want to confuse the audience. I think that's what it is.

I was gonna say, if she was Yeah, if she was Leana, like that would have made so much sense, right because that's.

Her middle Lea Luthor. Then fine, but just just you're calling him ultra man's just just go with her. She picks up this picture, this is this photoshop picture of like young Clark and younger John Glover. She's like, why couldn't you love me the way you love Clark? And he's like, well you just weren't that special, dam and she shatters the picture and it's so cruel. Take her away. She's like he's going to betray you. And she's right,

Yes, it's it really just adds so much to her character. And it's really uh interesting to see the just the dynamic in just that one scene, you know, like that's that scene in that short amount of time just told us everything we need to know about their whole dynamic on Earth.

Right, So we stayed on Lionel's face, He's like considering what Test said, and maybe and he's like, hmm, she's right, maybe Clark is gonna betray me. So Clark goes to the fortress. You know, we're in a bit of a tell spout right now, and Lionel's like, i'd call that another state.

That whole part made me laugh because, like one, it made me laugh of when he says that about we're not on good terms or whatever to Durell, because because I haven't revisited season ten in a while, I was like, that just made me laugh because it was like I forgot why, but I was just like, when are they not? And when are when are they in a good spot? You know, like and then and then just that's an understatement and he.

Alid this reminds me of when he takes over the caves, right, yeah, season three, That's what I was thinking.

Yeah, yeah, I was thinking of the him taking over the caves and les of course finding the fortress. There's just some in season seven, you know, like there's just something.

Step above from the barn. Yeah, there's just something really creepy and sinister and wrong about seeing a Luther in the Fortress of Solitude. And yes, yeah too even right yeah, yeah, So It's funny because I'm like, has Lionel been in the Fortress four? And I thought, yes, and hidden when he's the the when he's the Oracle of Jorel, like Lionel's there, but he's not, like they're there, but his body is there. So yes. But this is a fun scene.

It might as you as you know, I love Shakespeare and so it was really fun, like rewatching that that scene. One of the classes, the drama film classes that I taught, we would always do Shakespeare plays and turn them into movies and uh and yeah. So it was really fun, and we did one of our years, we did King Lear as a spaghetti western like Good, the Bad, and

It's very if he can explain it succinctly to confuse Clark over here. Well, and and I'm one of their like, oh, we can't mention lucas a screws up our analogy, so let's just ignore him. Forget about it, but on Earth

He's saying that he that was his, uh Cordelia, like that was his, the one that was the good child that he disowned, right right, yeah, which is interesting like.

The show, we can't get him back, you know why? That's good? Like I have no idea what occurred? Right, but Clark's like I killed Lex. I'm like, I don't know what happened there? Like did he did he? Did that happen in the incident where he scarred him and then he killed him? After that? I don't know?

And later later later Lionel says, I let you kill Lex. So it's like he he knew Clark was planning to kill him, right, Like, but it would be I would love to have seen flashback of but of course that would have needed a right, let's flashback of that?

But but how old were they when that happen? You think, oh, yeah, because he could have just been kids sending kids bring back they could bring up like Junger actress. That's and so that's that's a good thing to talk about her. Like there's so much you could look at it as missed opportunity, Like if you go to an altern universe and like where's Lex, Where's Jimmy, where's Coley? I'm like, all valid questions. I mean, we get the Jonathan and Martha answer in the next episode on Earth too, so

Yeah, when you think about it, is there ever besides the fortress? Is there ever anything that comes from Krypton that's helpful?

I mean, Henry Cavill had a right man, Krypton had his chance. It's a shamber, right, I mean seriously, Lionel tells Kark and oh Oliver Queen him and his family had possession of it when Veritas was dissolved. I'm like, oh, okay, very okay, Yeah, totally fine with Veritas in the university.

I forgot about my theory but yes, I mean my idea, but yes, yeah, that would have made so much sense. Right, It's like they still could have had their secret society thing, but not You're doing a total mess up of continuity.

Yeah, it's just right. Cons Lionel one through seven, and I know Clark is the traveler anyway, but I like the little little sprinkling that little references there. So he's turned Clark onto Oliver Queen.

Which, by the way, was I forgot that and rewatching it until later. I forgot that Lionel was lying, so that was right doublecross.

Yeah, that was really great. So I just yeah, I just want to make a proud dad and he's like thank you.

Oh yeah that moment too, when when he puts his hand on Clark and then Clark like backs away.

Were you thinking of that moment? Did it remind the series finale?

I was I was going to say, oh yeah, that dude, No, I was gonna say from Legacy when he's like, after all, you only get one.

All right, Yeah, what do you doing down here? It must be hard to see him so weak. Yeah. So seriously, like again, like I have not had as much fun watching a season ten episode as this one just because of the presence of John Glover, just totally just he's magnetic. Man, He's so magnetic, you know.

Side personal note, I've for years obviously wanted to work with him, you know, as a director because I make movies and stuff, and you know, I don't know if he's really acting like anymore at eighty or not.

But he's He's mentioned that like he doesn't take a lot of jobs and more because it takes him so long to rememborize lions, right, because he's like he's back in the day, it takes me a day, but now I'm like it give me a week, you know.

Yeah, So maybe the key is just not not to write him too many lions and it's.

Something where you can read off of or he's like Marlon Brendo style. Yeah, Like, okay, John Glover, if you're listening, Oh man, we cut to the the the engagement party for Lowis and Oliver, right those and all of ours, yes, which is so interesting. At the Ace of Clubs. So there's the little flyer here. It's on Friday December twelfth, twenty ten. That's when this day is taking place. So when when is that farm four quote is you know what? You know what, I'll be too hard on it. That

Yes, yes, totally, Like it's well it's and it's so interesting because it's like I think about that stuff all the time as a hopeless romantic, you know, like the butterfly effect thing, you know, of like if this thing happens and that thing happens, and is this a sign

No, that's the funt of all these alternate you know, infinite possibilities, right, so you know, every every choice you make creates a branch and who knows where how different your life would be. That that's the certain thing about some of these I mean, honestly, some of these alternate universes where it's like he gets really close to like our life. He gets like, you know, if everybody's making

Oh my god, that surprised me. I forgot about that moment and I was like, whoa like cleric? That was like I was applauding his.

Actually using a luther like tactic to get what he wanted for the scene, you know, like because he calls Oliver on the phones and the mirror Boxing Possession, give it to me, text me the address Lowis will be fine. So he's it's an exchange. He's like on exchange Lois for the yeah for the horror box. Right, And this is a really great scene between Lewis and uh Clark here.

Oh I love that scene. Actually, that scene, no joke, it made me tear up a little bit. That scene when he's when he's explaining, you know, you're a terrible speller. You misspell normal words that are free, alarming.

Alarming words.

Yeah, and he's saying all the different things about her that he loves, and like, I could just I could really relate to that scene. And it was a great moment, you know. And then with his you know, with his final line about I can't live in a in a world where you don't love me, I was like, oh the fels emotions, my emotions. And it comes back so full circle at the end with that moment with the two of them when she's the only one who can can tell I'm me and she looks in his eyes and sees it.

Like such a beautiful moment, absolutely, and she has this pipe, but she's gonna use against him. Hey, she's not going now without a fight, right. She thinks he's gonna kill her, right, but no, it's it's a beautiful scene where he's trying to convince her like you can see, you know, you can know what I'm lying. You don't tell the truth. Then he leaves that great line like you said, ah, and then that probably leaves her like, oh, I'm stuck

Yes, you know, there's a whole thing about like this modelogue about like the the thing that's just the almost the thing you want, but it's not one hundred percent the thing you want in a person.

And it's like that's her and Oliver here, you know.

There it is.

But you know the show that they just keep hanging on that little Olliver thing, finding ways to work it in. Speaking of Oliver, he has sent Clark the location for the exchange and it's currently the watch Tower. So cool because we have that set. I mean, like, I'm not gonna I'm not gonna complain about it because it makes the whole switch root great at the end and all that stuff, like the fact that there's no reason for them to be in the same building.

Fine, it's fine, but you know all buy it, right, It's like, you know, well, and what was cool to this this scene and connecting it also with the last scene with the with the roof, Like I like this whole kind of switching roles with you know, in the alternate universe, like switching roles with Lex in a way where like in like when he's on the roof with Lois, from Lois's perspective, at first, thinking it's ultraman, right, it seems like we're going to get what would be a

Thing called Lois le But then instaid we get the superman in Lewis, you know, and taking a BVS like this is very BVS with all of her, like you know, front Clark is the mysterious ultramat of a Trumples, Like this is totally a trap that Batman would set for one hundred percent.

Yeah, when he says that about I've had all these all these mouse traps around the around the city for your waiting for your rat ass to show like, it's yeah, very very Batman.

Totally, Like I love his line about Ultramann. That name sucks, by the way, so funny. It's such an Oliver things. Those those things are what separate Oliver from Batmanda like that. Yes, Batman wouldn't say something funny, would not say that for that chat. Right. So he's like, look, my eyes in the sky from from Lois is safe and I don't know anything about your box. And I was like, why is he lying to him? What's the dealer? Did he

That's like if it's like, you know, that makes sense in this universe, right, like that that's what ultra Man would do.

Yeah, would send him to do that. Yeah. It's like, but Ultramate, he probably really ultrama probably killed your parents, Oliver. I'm sure you know, but that's okay, but that's how he found out, uh what culture Man's weakness was. So sure, great, I am on board with everything you're saying here. So he's uh loading up a gun, not a kryptonite gun, but just the gun.

But okay, which, yeah, kind of kind of strange, but but I guess I guess they have enough. He has enough Rypton eight. There, it's doing the job.

Now.

He's he keeps trying to like reason with Olivers, like, oh he's maniac and he's delusional. It's like, well, it makes me feel better about being the enemy of small. This is how he explains like buying up this Land

It's like all over it, Like it makes sense with Alliver his character in general, right, like the Oliver that we've seen you know on Earth one too, that he has more of an end justify the means mentality, which is like, you know, okay, I'm gonna I'm gonna buy these you know, these businesses, and some people might you know, lose their land and this and that, but it's worth it because obviously the world saving the world from ultramat.

Yeah. Well, then then Oliver makes a person Guilois it you took her away from me. She only knows my secret supports me. I'm like, okay, so it's it's got a little personal Yeah, because he stole his wife from his engagement party. Someone I really get the BBS. She's like I believe in justice and oh yeah, I can see him monologuing too. Superman totally was the blueprint here. But were you also thinking of Dark Knight? What do

Which was really cool because it's also the classic Lex and Clark thing only turned now well also true, Yeah, Oliver and Oliver. Oliver is his melting pot of Lex and Bruce together here. And then last ditch effort and I actually, I don't know if I remembered this and mouthed it with the lion or I knew it was

Pipe so badass. That was fantastic. This is the most physical we've seen Lionel, Like, I'm not the Lionel. You knew a later episode he just listen this guy. He got worried he didn't get where he is but not getting his hands dirty.

Yeah, he's he reminds you of his in both universes that he would have grown up on suicide, you know, suicide salum and everything. Right, he had to he had to have got his hands dirty, He had to kind of probably know how to fight, you know, like and like a skinny, you know, intellectual dude like Lionel. He probably had to like extra learn those things, right because he could have, you know, gotten killed on the streets right right, So this is you see street Linel come out.

It's but he's like, I've been monitoring Oliver Queen's activities constantly. You should have known I would be doing that. And it's like the mirror box, Oh you mean this, He's like he had it the whole time. He's like, your betrayal has been staring me in the face. That couldn't ad been and it makes sense why. But what I find so interesting here is like he's basically well because Clark's like, just let me go and you don't have to worry about me, He's like, worry about you. All

It's interesting, right, Yeah, It's like it's like as as evil as Lionel, as as this Lionel is, like John Glover still makes that moment a little bit human, you know, like you can kind of understand, you know, it doesn't justify any of the horrible things he's done, but you can kind of understand it from his perspective that he feels like he's the one who's trapped, like in a way, like he's like scared, as much as he would never admit it, that he's actually scared of ultra man like,

It doesn't make him like any way, like, but it's an interesting layer. So what you know, it's like, to John Glover's point about the writing here, like more two dimensional the Lionel had been in the later season, so that that is the more dimension that I give it credit for. And yeah, I'll let you kill Lex, your own brother, my son so good, which which it gives them so much more motivation for when he does go

He's also trying to get Lex back, and so that right gives him another little human motivation.

Like absolutely, but then he got like he was. He starts kicking him. Oh, I've always been afraid of you, Clark, your power. He takes his belt to the belt starts beating him.

That was my favorite, one of my favorite moments of the episode because it just really was like, dude, like this Lionel is brutal, and he's and like it takes the whole, Like I love how they took the whole abusive father, you know, that trope of the belt thing, like the old school abusive father, because we're so used to, you know, mentally abusive Lionel, Like there's nothing mentally he wouldn't do to f with you, you know as a kid.

But physically abusive. We've seen that just a little like in Fracture when he you know, in a memorial and what have you done? You know, like, but this was like whoa dude? Seeing him beat his son with the belt was that was that was And as he's you know, beating him down, he's like, no true luthor would have let me live this lot And it's it's true. It's true dead in our universe.

It's what I killed him, and and and and it made me think back to uh in Dissent when he has the little smile on his face when he's falling from the window, like he's kind of that's interesting. Of course you you would have that different interpretation of that than me, because I always see it as like the Obi one Kenobi's smile in Star Wars and he dies like he knows it's gonna be okay because Clark's gonna stop him or whatever.

Like that's what I saw it. We'll see redeemed Lionel.

I I I.

Interpreted it as both. I think it's both.

I think he I think it's redeemed Lionel, happy that Clark, that he dies protecting Clark.

But at his core, I don't. I don't think that you could ever. I don't think he could ever change so much, even if he's luisoned. Oh man. I like the ambiguity though, and that's something that's some of the of course Jungle were probably brought to it that probably wasn't even in the script. It's probably interesting because if not, if you just throw a body off window, it's not interesting, Like you need to see that what is what is his what is going through his mind?

What?

It's a mystery to the end. That seems like a very Glover touch. I'm going to eat this peach who peaches that way? John, Those aren't apples. It's fine, it's fine. But this He's like, I am the most fit, I am the survivor. I'm like, I'm like, damn all right, Like he has beaten the hell out of cug Luthor and then all who have been overhearing all this turns off the kryptonite. And then uh, then Clark what a ball or movie. He's like, hey, thanks to the advice dad,

I like it.

I know it was flex. It was great.

That was such a great moment. And then of course plus one for throwing someone across the room, right, all right, I did knockout right.

But then I was like, yeah, yeah, I heard, you're the good one. And he's Oliver listened to me like when you when you when I activate this box, lionel Son's gonna be in my spot. You gotta turn that thing on and you gotta kill him and it's like, sadly, obviously it didn't go well because as we find out later, like he killed Oliver Queen, right, So this is what So this is what makes me think of mirror mirror, and I recommend you like the original Star Trek work.

Right.

So the idea is like he inspires that guy to turn things around, much like Clark here is inspiring all of He's like, he's like, you know, you said you wish we could have saved the world together. In my world we do. I'm like, oh man, Like it's it's so good, Like it's that was such a great feels moment. It was like you need it because you were beat you're beaten down as much as Clark gives in this episode. Yeah,

I was gonna say when I saw this episode, I don't think I knew he was gonna be back for multiple because I remember that the ending of this episode made me like get up and cheer it because I was so excited. I was like, oh cool, Like so I don't think I knew, and I was like, oh my gosh, yes, they're gonna have him back.

That's awesome. But it's like you see him running and then you see the three sixty and you don't really know what's going on. But we so we've talked about this before, right, So like people switched places with the other universe body of them. Right, yeah, So man, dude, I don't know. I think we've talked about this before I lived. But like in my head canon, this Lionel was in Lionel's grave and then he pulled a killer and duve himself up through the ground. Right, How bad

And then Lionel just like walks across it covered in dirt like uma to the restaurant and then instead of asking for a water, he asked for like a Chardonnay or no for a Scotch, for a scotch.

Oh man, uh but no, we see we see Clark back in our universe and the Watchtower is completely trashed. Tests and Oliver and Lois all have weapons on him. We got some kryptonize. Good thing, Chloy mantle those Kryptoni weapons to fight the Cantarian. They're about to kill him. I think they got him dead to rights, you know, yeah, he's got a Oliver has a crypt I know. I was like, say good night or whatever, and no, wait wait, wait, wait, wait,

It's such a great it's such a great point, right, It's like they have that soul connection.

She can see it right in his eyes. And then everybody kind of looks at each other and all right, Okay, still couldn't get in touch with us of Justice League, but at least great Arrow, So we kept the commercial. We come back. Lois is a at the hospital, but it's it's a quick at the hospital. She's just kind of it's not a room. It's like the waiting area with all the beds of the R room whatever. But

Right, totally, totally, and especially when you you see any any time that they really get to show Clark and Lewis being playful together in the later years, is like, I really like that, you know, because that their whole relationship started with playful banter, even if it was like I don't like you or whatever, but it was still like playful banter, you know. So I like that.

I like when they keep that, when they keep that going, because it can get like the show can get so serious with all the saving the world, all the dark things happening and stuff, that it's fun to see those moments in between. She does drop a he wasn't you, Clark, But I'm I don't think that's what You're not yourself, you know, I'm not going to count that as you're not, because it's he really was a different person. It wasn't. Yeah,

It was interesting, like again, all these callbacks we've been talking about, Like, there were two little things that reminded me of with this scene with Lois and Clark, Like

Yeah. So let me cut to Luther mansion and Test has some some photos all spread out. She has a promotional photo from hot Head of John Glover. She's got a picture of the baby Lex actor from the first couple episodes of the season. And then I assume a picture of young young Cassidy Freeman here, I don't I didn't recognize it. So then just random other pictures and this this is my point from earlier brok no lx no, Michael Rosenbaum Lex right, yeah, yeah, like where why would

I yeah, but I would you would think they would have because the character was on the show for seven years. You would think they would have like perpetuity rights for old picture with me.

But uh, you know, she's just we wallowing in her sorrows here and a family history. And then Clark shows up and he's uh to make up for what he said earlier, like Luthor blood is poisoned. Sorry I said that, right. This is a really good scene between the two of them. It's interesting. So we've we've seen this like sexual chemistry between in this episode and yeah, it's like it's just just platonic care chemistry between them and and uh yeah it's it's it's a great scene for Clark and test.

I really loved the scene too. I thought it was a great a great moment to see them bonding. Uh it like you said, in this platonic way after we saw the sexual with Ultra Man and Clark's whole point about like you know, when he says that to test about I was wrong. It wasn't Luthor blood, it's the man himself that corrupts.

Which which yes, that's the message. But like, I feel like they unintentionally kind of undercut the whole redemption arc for Lionel here. I was wondering.

I was, I was gonna ask you what you thought about Like like it's like, I know he's talking about evil line o, but yeah, it still kind of feels a little bit like you know, he's forgotten about that because he's like, well, I mean because Test is upsetting, Like you know what the worst weirdest part about it all is is I'm upset he threw be away, right yeah. And Clark's like, well, you know, Lionel raised tests over there in her life is a lot worse, so you know they're not okay.

And I'm like, okay, well you don't. I don't know who's to say, right, who's to say? But totally it totally tracks. It totally fits. I also like how Clark's is wearing like a gray sweater. I'm like, it's like Season one, normal person Clark close, Oh yeah, that's true. That's like he's not wearing a blue jacket. Yeah, it's just a normal person Like, yeah, god, yeah, I've missed

Yes, yes, totally totally the the Luther and Clark, you know, Luther and Superman team up right, like the tests, like you know, like Lex having her intelligence, her resources, and that really is like I think still to this day, like if Clark told season one through three Lex, I think that's where they'd be.

At the end, you know. And if they weren't both in love with LTA, that was probably if they were.

If they weren't, even if they were, they probably would have ended up like Lexmith's where Clark's like, okay with lex beiing with her, you know, yeah, like think it's.

Like maybe, and then Tessa's you know. The one of the big reasons I kept Alexander's secret is I was afraid that he might be the closest thing to a family I would ever know, just sad, yeah, totally no, where are your family?

You know, I'm like, all right, that's great moment. Yeah, Like, and it was also really interesting how how how ominous the ending of that scene is after it was so heartwarming, But then there's that you know about Alexander could be Yeah, like.

He's just as smart as Okay, you're trying to build up this criminal genius from the comics. He wasn't before, right, I think that's what they're doing.

Which yes, I was thinking, Okay, that's thinking of the original plan, that that's that would have made total sense. Oh right, you're right, Yeah, you're right, because this is super Boy.

This is.

He's smarter than Lexlithor that's super Boy, tell you that's hey. We we live in a world where Superboice is smarter than Lex Luthor. And Oliver Queen killed Lex leu All. Yes, when Oliver Queen killed Lex Luthor, Oh my goodness. And that leads us to our final scene, Brocup, potentially the best final scene of any episode of small Boy. Yeah,

Such this moment every time I watch it like chills, and I'll never forget how excited I was when when this first aired, and you just the reveal of him with you know, his gloved hands, which is a very lex thing too, you know, the gloved hand.

It's like boom, his faith and.

Very like I said, the fourth wall break, you know, it's with all of his all the Shakespeare elements in this episode like King Lear. You know that uh the fourth wall break you know really comes from Shakespeare. Like Richard the third was one of the first where he's not just doing a soliloquy on stage to himself. He's literally looking at the audience and he's a villain who's you know, sucking the audience into his orbit, right, And so I was thinking, Ah, that's a great Richard the third moment.

No, that's that's a Lara. I hadn't thought of it before, but you're right, you're he's like if there's, if there was ever gonna be a character and an actor that break the fourth wall in the show. He's a guy. Yes, I got I got a shout out to the to the to the newspaper worker, the newspaper stand guy, Joe Maffei. This is his fourth episode as basically the newspaper stand coffee vendor guy. So I remember he's in a few episodes and so the good Audi sir. He was also

I thought he looked familiar from all previous episodes. Yeah, that's I just like his I like his like he just has such a normal guy persona. It's just like it's a It makes for an interesting clash with like the universe, like the story we're in. You know, he just seems like.

Such a normal guy. Oh, I haven't ever seen you around you know well, I mean don't I know even sort Yeah, dude, it's like Donald Trump buying a newspaper from me. What are you talking about you?

I was gonna say, I was gonna say that the Donald Trump is exactly the metaphorm.

Even if he's been dead for three years, I would recognize maybe that's right. But anyway, he's like, but anyway, so he's like, I'm from out of town, unexpected visit. Like every every line he says to her is and I would try to use in my every day.

And of course I'm sure this happens to you as it does to me all the time. Like I'll say those things and and and no one knows what I'm talking about, right, I'll do it in the voice too, you know, and like and and and they just stare at you. And it's like if if someone responds by actually knowing, I'm like, that's how you know, Yeah, there we go.

But you know, it's raining, there's umbrellas everywhere, you know. He takes a moment, you know, and he's like, guess I'm backing the niked time and he just takes in the rain and he looks dead into the camera. He says, wouldn't want to missenter. All turns out, and then he opens up the umbrella and he fades into the crowd, and I'm like, that's brilliant, Like he doing out there,

It was just See, this is why I love being on the show, because I know, even though you and I didn't know each other back in the day, we were experiencing the exact same thing together, you know, like as this show was on, like the same feelings and geeking out over it. I don't know if you if this, if you thought of this too, but every time I see that moment where he disappears into the crowd, I always think of.

I'm having an old friend for dinner, Clarice. That very, very may well have influenced that, but it's just the fact that this evil is out there, Anonymous, dangerous. It's it's incredible and just like smallA had never done a fourth Wall break up, never never, Yeah, No, this is the only one. Yeah, And that's why it's so amazing and it's and it's and that's and that's why I'm like this should have been the mid season finale, you know, like I don't care how all the superheroes got knocked

Like literally Lionel stepping out of the fourth to the Fourth Wall to tell us that we shouldn't.

It turns out very street eenchanti they said, he wanted.

Lem So what are you matter, super Mad? And what if my soulmate comes along and I'm too blind to see it? Just follow your heart and you'll always do the right thing, Oh Mad, you can past life.

World needs your quirk.

What about what we need? Man need it.

Said this sweet set, Who are you? Lois? Lois my three pas?

Just you're more than just a hero. They're superhero.

Give me a nerd with glasses any day of the week. Whatesome, something dark is coming.

You're gonna be tested like you have never been tested before. Sweet Jessy, I know my destiny.

Smallville season premiere next Friday at eighty seventh.

Central New One, Blue ray and DVD.

This is where it's all been leading you become.

That's great to say it.

More than two hours of special features the final season of Small Tale on Blue ray and DVD November twenty nine and on the Complete series collection on DVD. Luther got an eight point six out of ten on IMDb and Douglas Trouble from the Superman homepage go to four out of five. So on the letter grade scale, Brokay, what would you give Luther? Oh? My gosh, A plus?

I mean this is come on, this this episode is It's as though they, the the showrunners and every writers and everyone knew me personally and they and they gift rapped it for Christmas for me.

I am right there with you. I'm gonna give it an A plus as well. This is one of the most enjoyable episodes of not just the season, but the series. Yep, you heard us going on fun continuity rants, right, but those are all part of it, right, But you're so right. Like mentioned earlier, we'd been talking about what what if episode of Litel fell and Clark right and like, and

I wanted to point out even though it's not in this episode, you would think maybe it would be, but it's a few episodes down the line with either Beacon or what the what's the one? I think it's the one after that Lionel appears. Oh, Scion, Yeah, and Scion, I think so. I was gonna say, it's gonna finally after years of no opera, it's gonna be a plus one for Linel listening to opera again.

Oh yeah, where he's in the where he's in the office.

Yes, and he's he's technically listening to the same opera, Costa Diva, that that one that he heard in season five when it's you know your secret.

Is safe with me? Well, he just pulled out the CDs. He was reading Lionel's daily journals listening to a CDs. Yes, daily daily journal. Think it was a little weird writing in a journal, Dear Diary, Martha kitt theyde I contact with me today. Oh my goodness, so good. Bechdel Test faster fail tests and lowis talk. But it's about evil Clark, so I think fail, right, it would be a fail.

Right.

It's not like relationship talk, but it's it's about Clark, about Clark, so we're gonna we're gonna call it a fail. All right, man, Well, this has been fantastic. Obviously, couldn't do this episode with anybody but you. Thanks has always spend the time to come on the podcast, tell us about what you're working on now where people can find you out there online.

Awesome, thanks man, it was such a pleasure of being here for this one. Yes, I'm as always working on movies. Shot a feature film over the summer called Morte and as the title probably suggests, it's a horror but a lot of dark comedy too. And right now I'm in the process of editing, actually just edited the rough cut last night. Hopefully we'll have it released by Halloween, so.

Stay tuned for that.

You can, you know, find me on Instagram and Facebook, Matthew Rocca, and I'm constantly self aggrandizing and promoting, so you can find any of your related stuff there too.

All right. Well, you'll be back before it's all said and done this season. So yes, we celebrate. As we celebrate the final season.

I can't believe that we're finally that we're finally here, that you're finally here. Man, all the wait, when did you start the podcast?

It was, what year? Twenty sixteen? Sixteen?

Wow?

Yeah, because I think I think I discovered you around then or maybe twenty seventeen, but yeah, it was because then we start talking about the Covenant and the music and yes, yes.

Twenty okay, yes, yes, yes, that's right, that's right. Oh yeah it was okay, I just yeah, no, that's amazing. You've been You've been on quite a journey doing a single.

And uh and let me tell you, man, you wouldn'tant to miss that all turns out. So stay tuned. We'll be back next week talking about Icarus. But until then,