#400 - Should Kindergartners Be Potty Trained Before School? What a New Kansas Bill Could Mean for Families

I remember hearing this mom talk about her son when she was potty training him and they went into like a gas station bathroom or some sort of like restaurant bathroom and it was smelly in there and he immediately threw up. And I was like I mean I feel that's a big reaction, you know, like that's really poor

olfactory modulation, you know? But those are the differences we have to think about. If you're a very clean family and you keep like incense going in your bathroom at all times or you always have a spray. Maybe your bathroom is like always super warm. Yeah.

Yeah. It's quiet. You don't have an overhead fan. You know, you have to picture the bathrooms are a completely different experience at different people's houses. You know, you've got strangers and things going on in public places, like their smells might be different than what your kid has ever expected. experience before. So yeah, that's such a good point. I think it's helpful to know like when a child has an adverse reaction like that or makes a comment about that, like

we have to validate that and be like, You're right. It is stinky. Like, what should we do about it? You know, what's our modification? Do you wanna plug your nose? Do you wanna chew some gum? Do you wanna put your nose in your shirt? Do you want to Yeah go to a different bathroom? You know, and just like understanding and empathizing that like, yeah, this is very different and this is gross. But we also need to go to the bathroom. Like it's it's not safe to

not go to the bathroom and and having those conversations too. But that's just the power of the sensory system, right? And that's why it's so important for the work that we do for these kids to be able seriously to go to the bathroom in public places.

Welcome to All Things Sensory by Harkla, your go-to podcast for practical insights on sensory processing and development from an occupational therapy perspective. Hey there, welcome to All Things Sensory by Harkla. We're so happy to have you here today. I'm Rachel. And I'm Amanda and I am an occupational therapy assistant specializing in sensory processing, primitive reflex integration, and I'm a mom of a almost four-year-old and a five-year-old.

And I am an occupational therapist specializing in early intervention, uh pediatric pelvic. floor, school-based OT, have some experience working in clinics, just all the things. All the things. So we're kind of going to have an open, honest conversation here today. Amanda shared this Information with me not too long ago about some interesting bills that were.

in the process of being talked about and we thought it would be a good time to have a conversation just from an OT's perspective because it relates to the pelvic floor and potty training and why don't you give us a little background on the topic that we're gonna talk about today. Yeah, I'd love to. So I was scrolling a few weeks ago, of course. Scrolling. As I do on Facebook. Just doing research. Just doing some research, you know? And I came across this Bill in the state of Kansas.

That is currently in the works. It has not been approved yet. I feel like it's being stalled a little bit because people are also feeling a little bit of unease about it. But especially Essentially they're trying to propose that all kindergarteners should be required to be toilet trained before

entering kindergarten. There is one other state, Utah, that already has a bill and law in place for this, but I just feel like we need to have a conversation about what this means, what they're proposing Yeah.

Well and what was interesting too is as you were going through some of the comments, you were saying that everyone was like, Well yeah, kids should be potty trained by five. Well, yeah, that makes sense. And I think from our perspective we are, you know, are neutral obviously on the on the topic, but from an OT's perspective, like what about our kiddos who can't

they ha they don't have the pericare, they don't have the hygiene skills, they don't have the pelvic floor control. Like are they just not allowed to go to kindergarten? Yeah. You know, where does that leave our clientele?

For sure. And I think like these bills, you know, they obviously have exceptions, right? For those special education classrooms, for students that have an IEP or a five oh four plan. But I feel like my uncomfortability with this is more for our clients and kiddos that maybe don't have a medical diagnosis. The ones who fall between the cracks. Yes. They're not in an IEP, they're not in a five oh four. There's not necessarily anything that

would be underlying that a doctor has to diagnose, but they might still be having accidents and things come up. And I'm like, okay, so are they gonna be banned from school in these states? Yeah, and you know, it just got me thinking about the situation that I had heard of from a charter school. A kiddo couldn't where they have uniforms, the kiddo in kindergarten couldn't undo his belt buckle. The teachers wouldn't help him because it was his job to undo his belt buckle and he had a

Had a bowel movement accident in kindergarten, like the first week of kindergarten. And it's like, where's the line here? You know, like that's Traumatic for a kiddo. Like I remember feeling having like an accident at daycare and feeling so shameful about it, you know, and to do that in kindergarten.

And kindergarten's such a new environment. Like I feel like by the end of kindergarten, most kids like they've got it, you know? They're in their routines, they are comfortable with the teacher, their classmates, the bathroom.

The toilet setup, but those first few weeks, that bathroom setup, the shape of the toilet, the height of it might be completely different than anything they've experienced before. The volume of the flush. The clothes that their parents buy for them, like those first day of school clothes. Like

Like you're like so excited as a parent. Yes. Yeah. You're like, ooh, look at these cute outfits, not even thinking like, Oh my gosh, my child is gonna have to manage this completely on their own. Yeah. There's not and We know the schools are understaffed. You don't have you know, you don't have the ability to potty train a classroom of kids, right? Exactly. You shouldn't be required to as a teacher or a classroom staff support, but

I mean to support these children through these accidents that might come up or these little incidences, as they're just learning how to be new humans in the world. And just get their just get their feet wet. Yeah. And enter into this new environment, this new season. Yeah.

And then to have something happen where it's like, Oh well, sorry you don't get to school because you don't get to go to school because of this, that or the other. Yeah. And then, you know, they're gonna be behind for other, you know, these children

are typically not behind either. You know, they might have some constipation going on, encopresis, which is, you know, a medical condition that can go along with chronic constipation, you know, some different things with b bladder and bowel issues, but

You know, if we're not allowing them to go to school because of that, but they're on par with all of their other developmental milestones and school readiness and things, you know, how much further are they gonna be set back in life based on a a simple bill like this? I do think that it is helpful

to remember as a parent. Like I am a parent of a child who is going to start kindergarten this fall. So for me, my summer project, already in my head, my summer project is potty training boot camp. And not potty training, but like hygiene boot camp, you know, like getting my five year old consistent and confident in w pericare, you know, wiping and and cleaning and clothing management, making sure that we have that in

the generalized concept, but like in our house, but also in public places. And, you know, I think reminding parents to practice those skills. Like it doesn't just come naturally, you know. There's a lot of different ways. Maybe we can talk about that today. Some fun ways of helping kids learn

how to wipe and how to get on and off the toilet and different modifications and folding the toilet paper, like you mentioned using wet wipes and things like that. So maybe that's the the direction that we need to go with this just to give parents that confidence to actually practice.

skill too. Yeah. And I think that that's important. You know, I I do genuinely think, you know, by five children should in general be potty trained. It's and it does, you know, it's it's important for parents to be on top of that and to be practicing these skills and it's important. So I think that this could be really helpful and just

and just helping them be prepared. I don't know how I feel about the bills laying down a hard law on that. No. But I think we can support parents if you're in a state where this is gonna be something and you're worried about it. Yeah. Or not. Let's just support it.

Exactly. So as pediatric therapists who work with kids with sensory challenges and pelvic floor challenges and a variety of intellectual challenges, I think it's important to have that conversation of, you know If we were working with these clients in the clinic setting or in the classroom setting, you know, what are those activities that we're gonna work on in order to help them feel when they need to go to the bathroom?

How are they gonna clean themselves up? You know, work on those sequencing skills. And how can we support the parents who are listening if they are nervous about this impacting them and their child's? success at school. Yeah, I think that's gonna be I think it's gonna be awesome. We were talking about recently, I think it was yesterday, we were just saying um

A lot of our kiddos, it is so hard to manage toilet paper and it's something completely new. So the one of the like easy things I was thinking about is just like parents having conversations with the classroom teachers in general when your kid is entering kindergarten, you're just Just okay, if your kid is

much more independent with using wet wipes, just pack them in their bag and let their teacher know like, hey, if they're going to the bathroom, this is what they feel really comfortable with. At least when you're starting out, you know, it's gonna help them be more independent.

more cleanly when they're in there. Um so yeah, I feel like just having a conversation with your teacher can go so far at the beginning of the year of like what helps them and what you guys use at home for help them. And I also think about positioning on the toilet. I don't know maybe you can

tell me more about this, but are the toilets low enough at school where kids can get on and off of them and their feet are supported or do we have the dangle? In a lot of the daycares and preschools that I go into, they do have those super small toilets. But even with those

Um, I've had to recommend to the daycare teachers like, Hey, I think you need to get a stool in the bathroom because they'll set the kiddo up on there and they're kinda holding themselves up with their hands and trying not to fall in. Yep. Um and their feet are still dangling. So I do think Having step stools even for the small toilets is important. A lot of our kiddos just are not tall enough yet, even for the small toilets. Yeah. So I'm trying to think.

In a lot of the kindergarten rooms do have toilets, their own bathroom in there. Like they're not going to the elementary school hallway baths where you picture six or seven stalls. Yeah. They do typically have their own in those pre K, the four K room and the kindergarten rooms. That's cool. I've just never went into it to see how tall the toilet is. So maybe that's something I have to check out. But I will say

Go do some go do some field research in the bathrooms. I'm going to. I'm going to. And I mean I think regardless, even if they are small, like we need a little cover on top, we need some footstools.

All the things that kids feel comfortable and supported. We need the knees above the hips. We want the feet flat and supported. Like none of us adults are out here going to the bathroom with dangling feet. No. And we know how uncomfortable it is when you sit on one of those large I think like a handicap toilet.

Um, I've been in a handicapped bathroom before and the toilet's so tall and I'm a short girly. So I'm like tiptoeing in there and I'm like, this is not comfortable. Not good form at all. No. It's not. So I think that would be helpful. And then I also think, you know, one of my favorite like we were talking about ways of helping kids learn to practice wiping is peanut butter or almond butter, some sort of safe nut butter on a balloon.

Yep. Whether you have one balloon, whether you have two balloons squeezed together to make some cheeks and you're sitting the child on a tea stool, on a therapy ball, on a chair, whatever is simulating the toilet, and they're twisting And wiping and trying to clean it off, and then they have to fold the toilet paper so they don't get the peanut butter all over their hands. Like all of that is.

that's hard to do. And being aware, you know, if they're practicing, they're reaching behind the therapy ball, wiping, you get to the front and you realize, oh, the toilet paper is dirty

Having a bin and showing them like, okay, it's dirty, what do we do with it now? Okay, we have to throw that one away. We shouldn't reuse it'cause it's too dirty. Let's rip off a new one and kind of just walking them through those steps. It seems second nature to us because we've been doing it for thirty years of our lives. But for these kiddos, this is brand new.

New they don't know. They're probably like, well, I don't know. Am I allowed to use more toilet paper or am I only allowed to pull it off one time? So we've got to kind of coach them through it.

Step by step and get to the nitty gritty of what our expectations are of it. Exactly. And I think going along with that with the step by step instructions, if you do have a child who's struggling with the sequencing or the step by step, putting up a visual of literally each step. You grab the toilet paper.

You fold it, you reach behind, you wipe, you throw it in the toilet, you grab another one and you show them the step by step. Then you get off and you pull your pants up and you wash your hands. Like having that list of pictures however is appropriate and that works for the kiddos, that is a game changer for so many kids. So true. Even and I think reaching behind

is really challenging. I'm sitting here thinking about it and there's so many fun different treatment ideas just to practice that skill in general. But I love just getting little clothespins or chip clips and different things and putting them all down their lower back and on their pants so that they can practice really

just reaching, s grasping and you know, bringing them to the front. I think that's a super easy way for parents just to play a fun game and kids it's almost like, oh, it's hiding. Yes. But also think about if they don't have foot support. Imagine how uncomfortable that is and how hard that is to transform.

reach behind yeah and grab those clothespins off your back. So think about that too. If if they don't have their feet on the floor, that's gonna be a lot harder versus if you give them something to have their feet supported on, they're gonna be a lot more successful. For sure. And scary.

I mean, I can't imagine like your their butts are so small, you know? They're about to fall in the toilet. They're trying to like hold themselves up, reach around. And I think about, you know, like their vestibular system. If they're like leaning all the way forward and down to like off-balance themselves and now they're tipping up and down for some of our kiddos that struggle in those different sensory areas. You know, there's so much to think about.

Exactly. Which I think it's why these are hard conversations to have, but I honestly think that's why we have to have them because not a lot of people are talking about it. Yeah. And teaching the kids how to do these things. We just expect them to just learn naturally. And so for so many other kids that we worked with, it just doesn't come natural. Yeah. It's not second nature. It's like fourth nature.

You know. Literally. So far down. So that's far down the line they're not thinking about, you know, how am I wiping? That's not on the top of their agenda for the day. It's getting their Spider Man high together, whatever they're they're thinking about. Yes. So from

A sensory standpoint, let's talk about some additional strategies that we see that kids. struggle with when it comes to pelvic floor and potty training and all that. Yeah. I feel like interoception is one of the big ones. It's that hidden sense that not a lot of people know about or talk about, but it is the number one thing that helps us know if we're

If we're hungry, if we're thirsty, the difference between the urge to pee versus poop and a lot of kids struggle with it. It's something brand new to them that they're learning, whether they have sensory processing differences or needs or not. You know, it's something we have to teach to kids and we've got to slow down to learn it. Exactly. Yeah. My favorite hack is always. tapping into the vestibular system.

to get that increased interoception awareness. So especially if we have kiddos who are sensitive to movement and who are gravitationally insecure, they're the ones who probably have even poorer interoceptive processing and just awareness. And I love doing um I do body scans with a lot of my kids, but essentially that just means we just lay flat on our back and we close our eyes and I'm like, Okay, can we wiggle our toes? Can we wiggle our fingers?

What does our belly feel like? What do we hear going around us? So just trying to get kids grounded Life is so fast paced right now in the twenty first century and kids are just I think not aware of what's even going on in their mind, in their body. And so even just taking one minute every morning for them to slow down and notice, you know, is their stomach grumbling

Grumbling right now. What does that mean? You know, is our digestive system moving? Are we hungry? You know, what is going on inside our minds? Mindfulness. Yeah. I love that. And I honestly don't feel like parents I mean I think most parents probably aren't taking the time to lay down on the floor in the morning, you know, and and having those conversations and even just teaching them what

that feeling in their stomach is connected to. You know, we were like, Oh, do you feel okay? They're like, Yeah. But it's like, what does that mean? You know? And a lot of and and kids I feel like don't notice until those signs are really, really big. Yes. Like and that's why it's always like, Mommy, I have to be right now right now. And you're like, okay, but it's not that they were being lazy or they're being annoying. They just genuinely

are not in tune enough with their bodies yet to recognize them when they're slowly creeping up like we can. Um, and so they don't notice until it's like their bladder is so full that their urge is so strong. Exactly. That That's my daughter. Just all of a sudden it's an emergency and we have to get there immediately. And it probably actually is an emergency. She's like, we don't get there right now. It's yeah. It's happening. Not good. I also think about

olfactory with a bathroom a lot of kiddos. I I remember hearing this this mom talk about her son when she was potty training him. And they went into like a gas station bathroom or some sort of like restaurant bathroom and it was smelly in there and he immediately threw up. And I was like

I mean I thought that's a big reaction, you know? Like that's really poor olfactory modulation, you know? But those are the differences we have to think about. If you're If you're a very clean family and you keep like incense going in your bathroom at all times or you always have a spray, maybe your bathroom is like always

super warm. Yeah. It's quiet. You don't have an overhead fan. You know, you have to picture the bathrooms are a completely different experience at different people's houses. You know, you've got strangers and things going on in public places. Like they're Their smells might be different than what your kid has ever experienced before. So yeah, that's such a good point. I think it's helpful to know like when a child has an adverse reaction like that or makes a comment about that, like do

we have to validate that and be like, you're right. It is stinky. Like what should we do about it? You know, what's our modification? Do you want to plug your nose? Do you want to chew some gum? Do you wanna put your nose in your shirt? Do you want to go to a different bathroom? You know, and just like understanding and empathizing that like, yeah, this is very different and this is gross. But we also need to go to the bathroom. Like it's it's not safe to

not go to the bathroom and and having those conversations too. But that's just the power of the sensory system, right? And that's why it's so important for the work that we do for these kids to be able seriously to go to the bathroom in public places. Yeah.

And for parents to not get so frustrated with it, but just being like, Okay, wow, I guess this is probably something we need to talk about and work on at home, whether we need to buy a book, create a social story, do something so that the next time we go out they're not throwing up every time that we go into a public place. Exactly. And equipping them with the accommodations. So maybe not just avoiding it forever.

practicing it before we get to school. Obviously this is, you know, mostly focused around school today, but, you know, knowing those things about your kid and equipping their backpack with all the things they're gonna need. Yes.

And again, making sure their teacher and support staff know what accommodations you use at your house and not just expecting the classroom teacher to know and remember Every single child in their classroom's quirks and needs and reminding them over and over again until the teacher knows your student'cause those first few months, I mean, they all kind of blend together. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. If you have thirty kids in a classroom, like that's a lot to manage. Yeah. And if you're cut

If your kid is the quiet one, sometimes again, they slip through the cracks and they're just there and the teacher's like, What? I thought you were doing great and then these things come up. So just remind, you know, your classroom stuff. Teachers are so great, especially those kinder teachers. They can they know and they get it, but sometimes you just gotta be on'em.

True. I love that. Yeah. So I think at the end of the day, from an O T's perspective, you know, these bills that are being proposed on whether or not a child can go to school, if they're potty trained or not, I mean What's the hot take? Yeah. I mean I think the core issue is that it's every child's right to access the public school system and I think it becomes a really touchy, dangerous, grey area when we try to put a law in place that dictates Who can access that and who can't based on

one single developmental milestone. And I like that you mentioned developmental milestone because it really is. It's a skill that children have to develop and improve and practice. And if we pull their

ability to go to school because of that. It's it's gonna set them behind. It's going to impede their confidence. And I think we may see more harm than good and I think it's important to have that conversation and make sure that as parents and as educators and as therapists we educate and we advocate for our clients and our kiddos and, you know, we we Put the words out there that we want to see happen.

Yeah, I just I urge any lawmakers out there that might be listening to this also to just try to think about those students that might be in the gray area, you know, when these things like constipation and big life changes or traumas come up in their lives that That there are gonna be hiccups and we can't just make things, you know, black or white when it comes to this stuff. Yep. Oh, you had an accident. You're kicked out of school. Like for how long? Forever? For the year? For

I mean that's wild. Yeah, it's craziness. But also if we have other lawmakers, I don't know, do we have a lot of lawmakers who listen to this podcast? If we do we should also consult about crawling as well. Let's just slip that into some more of our episodes. You need to learn something. Well, thank you so much for listening. We would love to hear your thoughts on this, your perspective, if you have anything either way. Like

Like we said, you know, we're fairly neutral and we want to just make sure that we are advocating for the kiddos that we work with and our clients and the families who are listening and they have to advocate all the time as well. So we would love to hear your thoughts, either

share them here in the comments or tag us on Instagram at All Things Sensory Podcast and share your thoughts and your stories. Just, you know, let's just have the conversation and be open and honest. Yeah. Having the conversation is just

It's important. It's the number one thing. Yep. All right. With that, we'll plan on seeing you next week for another episode. Bye. Thank you so much for listening to All Things Sensory by Harcla. You can find links and resources from today's conversation right in the description of If you want to connect, ask a question, or share what resonated with you, come find us on Instagram at All Things Sensory Podcast. We'd love to hear from you.

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