The Institute of Internal Auditors presents all things internal audit. In this episode, Amanda Joe Irvin talks with Desiree Rivera about developing the next generation of internal auditors. They discuss attracting new talent, making, internal audit a more appealing profession, and the power of mentorship and community. Hey, Joe, so nice to see you. Thank you so much for joining me today.
I've known you for about two years now, and I know how active you are in the internal audit community and all of the awesome things that you're doing at MSU Denver. Could you tell me a little bit about your journey in the field of internal auditing and really what inspired you to become an educator? Sure. Yeah. I, I can't believe I'm approaching 20 years in internal audit. So I actually started in public accounting like many of us did 20 years ago.
And we'll talk about how, uh, that has shifted and in our favor as internal auditors. But, um, started in in public accounting at a big four firm, but learned very quickly that that was not for me. So I was one of those people that ignored the advice, you know, you have to stay until you make senior manager or all that. And I, I said, no, I've done my time. And I actually got a great job in internal audit and ended up working at that company for about 11 years.
Uh, worked my way up from staff to director of internal audit, left about six years ago now, a little over six years, and decided that my favorite part of my job in internal audit was teaching new staff, training our staff on system implementations. You know, when we got a new audit software, I loved doing that. So I think teaching and training has just always been in my blood and internal audit has always been my passion. So it just was perfect. All, it's like all the stars aligned for me.
Desiree, it was great. Uh, when, uh, MSU actually asked me to be on their board first. Uh, they had an internal audit board as they were trying to become an IAEP school, which I'm sure you'll explain what that is. Uh, and then I was lucky enough to be active on the board enough that they, when the current director of the program retired, they asked me to, to take her place. So it just kind of all aligned for me about almost two years ago now.
Awesome. And you said the word passion, and that's really like the best way to describe you and your teaching style, and it just really shines and everyone can see how passionate you're, so, yeah, It's, it's hard. It's hard to, when you actually even have a, a tattoo of the i i a logo on your arm, it's hard to hide your passion for the internal audit profession when you're me. So You couldn't have said it better.
Yep. Along those same lines and your passion for students, could you tell me what the biggest challenges are that you see today in the internal audit talent pipeline? So I think everyone probably is reading about the accounting pipeline and how we're losing, um, accountants, and I'm gonna say sadly, but I'm not, I'm not really sad about it. But sadly, internal audit, at least at our university, still still sits under the accounting department.
And, you know, I think that is the biggest challenge to me. And it's forcing me though, what I love about this is it's forcing me to go outside of our accounting department, into our business schools, into even our STEM classes, um, our cybersecurity school that's completely outside of the business school and attract new talent and different talent.
And I think, you know, along the lines of, of where I started by saying, you know, when I was in college, we graduated 20 years ago and we had to go into public accounting, that was just what you did. It has shifted over time. And I think it's about educating, it's about teaching and showing the students that there's something else out there. And so to me, the biggest challenge I would say is getting the students in, right, which I think is everywhere.
And then marketing internal audit to them, because it still is a bit unknown. So you have to have that passion. You have to go and do, you know, pop-ins at different classes. I'd love to pop into like intro to business and be like, Hey, do you know about internal audit? So you just have to kind outta your niche, if that makes sense.
Yeah. And you really kind of touched on, on my next question because you guys are so creative over there in your kind of recruitment and your way of bringing awareness to the profession. So is there anything specific that you could share that has been really successful in attracting kind of these students for internal audit? Sure. So I think a, it's attending, attending, attending.
So, you know, a lot of us on faculty, you know, we do our best to be everywhere at once, but part of, one of the biggest things I do is I, I try to go to everything. So, you know, we have welcome week that where, you know, we give out hot dogs. And so I'm there, um, you know, talking about internal audit, talking about, so I'm also the accounting student organization, the a SO at our, at our school, uh, faculty advisor. So I'm always trying to recruit students one way or another, right?
Depending on which hat I have on. But, you know, it's, it's going to orientation night for our graduate school. I love it. They get to meet their cohort that they're gonna go through grad school with. But it's also my opportunity to stand up, introduce myself and say, Hey, I teach these awesome classes, you know, on internal audit.
And one of my classes is one of three experiential learning options, and they have to take one, you know, but they get to pick between, you know, small business or, um, let's see, what's the other one? I'm, I'm totally spacing what the other one is. Uh, but one of mine is obviously internal audit where we audit the university. So I love to sell that class.
I love to stand up and just be like, you know, you're gonna have to take one of these, you know, here's, here's your option and please pick mine. So I think, um, I think a lot of, a lot of the role is as a salesperson and, and you don't think of that as a faculty member, but that is how I view my role. So it's, it's being in front of everybody is anywhere I can honestly, I think that's why you're so awesome and effective at it. Um, and it's a great resume builder for students.
So I'm sure, because that's something really unique that you do over at MSU serving kind of as like the internal audit function at the university, right? Correct. Yeah. So I mean, really we are the third line at the university. I tell my grad students to change their email signatures even for the semester.
They are student internal auditors and they're, you know, held to every confidentiality, you know, all of those things that, that I'm gonna put in air quotes, not that everybody can see that, um, normal internal auditors are. So that is, um, you know, it is, I've helped lots of our students put that on their resume 'cause it's an internship essentially for a semester. So it is great to show employers that you've had that.
Awesome. Um, so what kind of, what key skills and competencies, uh, would you say are really essential for this next generation of internal auditors? I just gave one away sales. So it's so funny for, you know, I'd say probably about 10 or 15 years, um, as I was hiring internal audit staff and, and going through interviews, I would just always love to ask the question, how comfortable are you being a salesperson? Or what sales experience have you had?
And you know, of course they look at you like you're crazy because what does this have to do with internal audit? But the big piece that I feel like is hard to teach is that communication and that influence and selling our recommendations, our ideas, our enhancements, our improvements, all of those things to the business, that's the key to being a successful internal auditor. So I always like to have my students, they always present in my class, right?
They, they have to have that, uh, ability to stand up and communicate, but I also really push them to sell me on something. Sell me on what would've made this better or, um, because I think that's such a key, um, competency in our field that we don't talk about all that much. You know, we might say communication, but to me it's really that, that influence in that selling. And I, and I don't, nobody loves that selling word, right?
But there's that quote, selling equals trust, trust equals selling or, or however that goes. That that is perfect, right? We want them, if we wanna be a trusted advisor, we have to be able to really influence their, their decisions and, and sell them our ideas. Yeah. And that really sounds like something that makes them very competitive in the job market. So that's, that's a great kind of skillset to have and to really teach.
Is there anything else that you would say that aspiring internal auditors, um, could really kind of add to their toolkit to differentiate themselves? You know, it's funny 'cause I I am grading case studies right now and, and we call 'em case studies, but they're really memos and I have 'em actually write memos to the board of directors because I want them to practice that succinct professional writing.
So we actually do like a, a Harvard Business Publishing Guide to Better Business writing in my class pretty early on. And I tell them, this is not your typical academic class where you're gonna write a paper and you don't have to do all those fancy citations. What I want you to be able to do is to clearly write a memo. I don't even give 'em any page limits, right? They're not used to that. Well, what's my word limit? What's my page limit? No, there isn't. That doesn't happen in the real world.
And if anything, we want you to learn to be succinct and clear and concise. And so to me, um, you know, communication is such a key part of internal audit, both verbal and written. And I think, you know, getting them outta that academic writing and into that professional writing is a competency I know I'm working with my students on, I honestly tell them to pretend they're writing in my class is more like an email than a memo. And, and so it's interesting to watch their brains shift there.
Uh, and, and maybe think about how they write an email too, which is a skill, you know, I think is crucial in our, in our field. 'cause we all know we don't like to pick up the phone anymore, right? We just write emails. So You're right. Right. Um, and then, you know, I'd say another skill or competency, however you wanna look at it, is creativity and curiosity. You know, those are two things that I really focus on in my class.
In fact, I have them pretend that, um, you know, they, they get to pick a scandal in my class to write about, but they have to pretend that they were the internal auditor at that company, and they have to pretend that they are actually going to do an audit of whatever that, you know, scandal was over, whether it was an accounting manipulation or whatever it was. Uh, they have to pretend to uncover it first, right?
So identify what the risks are, what controls are missing, you know, where the governance was lacking. And so to me, creativity is huge. And I think an internal audit that equates to thinking outside the box, you know, we use that term a lot, but it is not doing it the way we did it last year. It's not following, you know, those same, same procedure steps. It's thinking, okay, let's zero based audit, let's think, how can we attack this department topic, whatever it is in a whole new way.
And so I think getting that curiosity and, and creativity out is super important. What would you say that seasoned, experienced internal auditors can do to contribute towards developing the next generation of talent? Ooh, I love this question because I love to involve my Denver, i, I a chapter friends and all the amazing network that I have built in, in Denver where I am, uh, in my classes. I actually assign each one of my students a mentor in the community.
And it is such a great experience for not only the students to get to work with somebody other than me that's actually out there doing, you know, doing the work, even though I feel like I'm still doing the work every day. Uh, but to meet somebody and they get to get their opinion on how to approach something. So they actually work on a semester, kind of half a semester long project with their mentor where they are issuing a project announcement.
They are doing a risk control matrix, you know, they're actually creating an audit report at the end of the day, and they get to run all of that by their mentor. So it's a great, uh, communication lesson because they have to have two meetings with their professional, whether in person or virtual, and it just gets them outside of the normal things you do in a classroom.
So, and again, I know you asked about the, the people in our community, the experienced auditors, I think it's great for them to remember what it's like to be newer and to have to break something down and explain it. It honestly, I think, provides more aha moments to the mentors than it does the mentees sometimes. You know, I never, I never thought of this or doing it this way because students are also very creative.
I had, um, a couple students in that class actually use AI to help create their audit report after they had done all the work. We got some gorgeous audit reports, and you don't usually think of audit reports as gorgeous, right? You're, you're going, what is that word? Uh, but just super cool one pagers, you know, executive summary off to the left. You gotta, you know, all, I don't know, some images. I just think you get such good different products from students.
And I think it was an aha for some of my, my professionals in the room. So It was a mutual kind of learning relationship too, which is great. Absolutely. I actually have people asking me if they can do it next semester, so it's in the spring. So, yeah. So it's nice when you have mentors that wanna kind of knock on your door. So it's good.
That is awesome. And that's also like an indirect plug for kudos to your chapter members and really the importance of their support because you do have a very active, engaged, uh, group of chapter leaders over there. And so, and, and that, that helps tremendously. So that's awesome. How would you say that organizations can tap into a global talent pool to address the skill shortages that are in the internal audit profession?
So I think, you know, in talking to all these mentors to kind of bring it back to them and really talking about how are they finding new staff, number one, I think they are coming to universities more and more, which is great. It's great for programs like ours because, you know, I think there was this disconnect between employers in, you know, especially internal audit and universities.
We weren't hiring directly from universities, and I know this from experience, but I think that is finally shifting and changing a little bit. And I was actually, um, able to get one of my undergrads into an internal audit internship. She had never done it before, and that's gonna be her life career now. And just from this one company taking a, a chance on an undergraduate, you know, still getting her her accounting degree, but really, really liked my class.
So I think we're getting notice finally, you know, that, that some of these universities actually have good internal audit programs and you don't have to wait to hire them. And I would say that the second thing that organizations need to do more, and I had experience with this in my position in internal audit when I was the director, is we hired from the business. And getting that business knowledge into internal audit is so important.
I think we worry too much about audit experience and we should focus more on business experience because I think we could teach people to audit. And I think that's something I do every day, right? I teach students what an internal audit is about, and I think it's getting the right people with the right skills and, you know, maybe that business knowledge.
And so we had fantastic luck hiring people who were just interested in maybe going back to school or, you know, wanting to know more about internal audits. So I think organizations need to kind of poach people a little bit more. I think it's, it's kind of the opposite. Some places, you know, I think some businesses, you know, look at the internal auditors as, oh, they have great skills. They know so much about the business.
You know, maybe they end up moving, leaving out of internal audit and going to work in the business. I think it needs to shift. I think we should pull people from the business into internal audit. I think they just have the insights into the business that sometimes it's harder to get in internal audit.
Well, and then just to add to that, so as you are very familiar with our internal auditing education partnership program, since MSU Denver is one of our IAEP schools, we do have employers and organizations reach out to us all the time to kind of inquire and see what universities are affiliated and recognized by IA Global. We're teaching internal audit curriculum.
And so we have those listed on our public sites, and they can see MSU Denver, along with all of our other, uh, universities globally that are part of our academic partnership programs for teaching internal audit curriculum, and really, uh, producing these outstanding internal audit, you know, ready graduates. So thanks for serving as one of our many IEP coordinators. You're awesome, Joe. And so we, you've been recognized for that, for your leadership, for your mentorship.
What final piece of advice would you give to young professionals that are entering the internal audit field? So I think one of the pieces of advice that I love to give students applies really any field, honestly, but internal audit the same is find a company that matches your values personally, that you enjoy what they do, whether that's, you know, producing a good or some sort of service. I've just met so many people over my career that didn't even love the company they worked for.
And so, you know, number one to me is find that company that just feels like a good fit. You know, whether that's, you know, their company values or people, everybody says people are really important. So, you know, how can you get to know the people, maybe go, you know, serve on a community service project with that company or, or something to get to know the culture of that organization. Because I think that's huge.
And I think for internal audit, it's even more important that you love the place you work because then you're more passionate about what you are recommending and what you are selling and how you are influencing that company. If you've got that just little bit more of a connection to it, uh, I think you have such better passion in your career. So, like, for me, I think of it now, I love the university, I love serving the university.
I love the mission to help students get access to higher ed for, for all students. So for me, I feel like I have this new passion to help MSU because I love what they do and, and love their mission. So I think that's just really, really important for everybody to remember. Well, thank you so much for all of the great advice, the great insights. The biggest takeaway I have from this conversation is just the passion that you have for the profession, for your students.
And I know that many, uh, anyone who's gonna listen to this is gonna feel the same because they're just as passionate about kind of paying it forward and really bringing awareness to this amazing field and profession. Um, so thanks so much for joining me. You're awesome, Joe, and we appreciate everything and all of your insight. Thank you. I appreciate everything. The I a A does to support us universities chapters everything. So thanks, Desiree.
In bonus content Jar Meia via joins Robert Perez to discuss the challenges of keeping content fresh and relevant for a global audience. Eric, thank you so much for, uh, joining me today. Thank you so much for inviting me. Tell me what is, is your role precisely in the, the, uh, curriculum department? My title is Curriculum Quality Specialist. So as you can imagine, the I a a being a global organization, we have several units to serve our members, one of them being member competency and learning.
And as the names suggests, our role is to ensure that our members are staying competent and that we provide all the learning opportunities for them to continue their professional development careers. So part of my job at the, as a curriculum quality specialist is to ensure that we provide, we create and provide all of these, uh, resources or courses that internal auditors will need year over year to continue improving their skills and upskilling for their advancement in their careers.
So before we get into the detail of just how that content is developed, can you share with me a little bit about how many hours of coursework is offered by the I i a on an annual basis? Currently we offer over 50, uh, ILT courses. ILT stands for instructor-LED training. So if you have ever taken an in-person course, we have over 50 courses of of that nature.
And we also offer over 80 on demand courses, which are the ones, uh, that are self-paced that you take at your own time and if your wifi allows it, right? Mm-Hmm. You can on your own, on your own time and at your own pace.
Uh, and we have topics from basic or fundamentals of internal auditing all the way to the current topics that we are discussing, which is cybersecurity ai as such, Because you and I both work at IA quarters, creating content, both benefit from having access to a lot of professional experience here, uh, in the building. We have CIAs and former CAEs to help, uh, guide and validate the content, but often you go beyond that as well. Correct?
Correct. Um, the, the beauty of an organization like the I I A and the services provided for its members is that the IA has been around for over 80 years. So we benefit from a longstanding relationship with so many business partners that we have been able to help develop their own careers. So we are able to tap into those business partners in order to recruit subject matter experts.
Uh, sometimes we do have in-house subject matter experts, uh, in our own organization, but it is, it is a beauty to have that opportunity to bring these professionals that are actually in the industry that have, uh, real experiences who can provide specific scenarios and specific experiences for our, um, internal auditors, especially the new ones. That includes some of our principal partners such as Deloitte and EY and pwc. Correct, correct. To to name some, to name a few. Right,
Right. As you mentioned, the coursework is offered in different formats, whether it's instructor led or online or on demand. How challenging is it to develop content for, for both audiences? It's an interesting question, Robert. Uh, and fortunately for our team, most of us come from the classroom. Mm-Hmm. We are former teachers or we have specific training, uh, as teachers.
I myself have a master's degree in instructional design, so it's part of my career to always make sure that I create a learning environment for anyone. Now, am I an internal auditor? No. But because I am in the learning industry, I team up with a subject matter expert, and we make sure that the content that is relevant, that is, uh, objective driven, is employed and is delivered in a way that is pertinent for all our members. And that includes different modes. Mm-Hmm.
Which it could include in person or on demand. We serve a global community. Yes. So we have to make sure that all our learning materials serve that purpose of speaking basically to everyone, uh, in, in a global, in a global level. So it's, it's challenging for sure. And you and I have talked a little bit about this already, in, in the sense that you wanna make sure that they've got that proper learning environment when they do finally get the materials.
And that, that's something that goes into your consideration as well in terms of making sure that folks who sometimes aren't professional educators have the structure, have the information they need to execute, uh, those learnings. Right. And we have fantastic facilitators, and again, like I stressed before, they, they come with this beauty of experience from, from years, um, working in the industry. And that is so valuable.
And all we provide is the guidelines for them to make sure that the participants, uh, receive all the information and that they are set up for success, which is our mission. And to be sure that also includes, you know, making sure that, uh, we meet all the nasba qualifications to, to make, uh, those learnings NASPA qualified or certified. Absolutely. Absolutely. All our courses are NASPA compliant.
And, uh, to, to that point, one of the most interesting aspects of, uh, what we do at the product development unit is we are always keeping our ears close to the ground when it comes to what members are saying, what members are needing. And, uh, it is important that this message comes across because we are actually paying attention and making the adjustments that are necessary so it serves better to our facilitators and our members because we are here for our members.
And what kind of feedback do you get maybe in terms of that or, or other types of feedback that we get on our courses? Typically? Fortunately, we have always had a good, uh, a good amount of good feedback when it comes, uh, to our participants, including our facilitators.
We, we are very proud of the work that we put in to our courseware, especially because we are receiving the information that it is serving their purposes, especially as they continue growing in their own industries and their own companies. Uh, and, and we are part of their success. Excellent. So one, one final question. Derek, tell me, what's the best part of your job? The best part of my job? Well, as a, as a former teacher, you are always a teacher, right?
And, um, one of the things that excites me the most, it's always the opportunity of learning something new. And being in this role allows me to be among the so, so many professionals in the internal audit industry that I can learn from. And that allows me to learn what their experience is, especially since internal auditors, they are everywhere in every industry that we can imagine, right? It's not only banking, it's not only, uh, government.
There's so many applications of internal audit today, and, and we get to learn from all of that, right? And I feel like that learning and that passion for learning is what really drives our engines whenever we are developing new courses and updating our courses. So I hope that that passion translates into all the materials and everything that we put forward for the benefit of our members. Excellent. Again, Eric, thank you so much for joining me today and Speaker, Thank you.
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