Hi, I'm Edward Sri, and welcome to All Things Catholic, where real faith meets real life. In these days, I've been thinking a lot about something special I do with my pilgrims that I bring to Rome when I bring them to the Sistine Chapel. After we admire the beautiful art from Michelangelo and others, I gather them together to say an important prayer.
I bring the pilgrims to a corner in the Sistine Chapel. I huddle them up and I tell them, close your eyes. And I want you to imagine that the Pope has died. Imagine what will happen in this very sacred space. Eventually, cardinals from around the world will fill this chapel and a conclave will begin. They'll gather to discern, to pray, to discuss, and vote for who will be the next pope.
And as they are here gathered in their conclave, they will be doing so underneath the shadow of the majestic image, the massive image of Michelangelo's depiction of the Last Judgment. that features in the very middle of it, Jesus Christ sitting on a throne, his fist raised in the air, and he's judging the living and the dead. And that will serve as a reminder. for those cardinals that one day they will have to render an account
for how they behaved and how they voted in this conclave. Did they vote with their consciences, truly? Did they vote in secrecy? Or was there politicking? Did they break the seal? How did they vote? Let's pray for those cardinals that will gather here. And let's pray for the next pope, the one that will be chosen on that day. And in these days, as Pope Francis has passed, we are in this period in between two popes.
And there will be many rites and ceremonies that have already taken place at the Pope's death and many ceremonies in the days moving forward. But what are all those rites and ceremonies? What does the church have in its tradition, centuries-old rites and ceremonies, when a pope dies and in the transition period and how we prepare for a new pope?
What happens when a Pope dies? That's what we're going to take a look at in this week's podcast. So welcome to All Things Catholic. I'm your host, Edward Sri. And in these days, we're praying in thanksgiving for Pope Francis. and praying for the repose of his soul. And soon, the Church will be turning its attention to who will be the next Pope. But what are all those various traditions, the various ceremonies, the various rites at the end of a pope's life? What are the various...
ceremonies that take place in the transition period, what happens in a conclave, how is a pope elected. That's what we're going to take a look at today. And there's one Vatican official. that stands out for playing a crucial role at the death of the Pope. And I want you to be aware of this person. It's really important. He's called the Camerlengo, also known as the Chamberlain in English.
The person playing this role today is the Irish-born Cardinal Kevin Farrell, who actually has some connection to the United States. He was the Bishop of Dallas from 2007 to 2016. And he has served as the Vatican Chamberlain. And he's the one that draws from a very important liturgical book in these days.
It's called The Funeral Rites of the Roman Pontiff. I'm told it's about 400 pages long. Lots of rites and ceremonies that have been revised over the centuries to ensure secrecy and an orderly transition in this period. And how does the process begin? When Pope Francis died in this modern era, we have a Vatican doctor that would examine his body and confirm the death like a doctor does at a hospital in a normal situation.
But things became ceremonially official when the Camerlengo, the Chamberlain, calls out the baptismal name of the Pope three times and asks, Are you sleeping? So this is what the Cardinal, Kevin Farrell, would have done. He would have said, calling out the baptismal name of Pope Francis, Jorge Mario Bergoglio, are you sleeping? And then there was no response. And then he would have asked a second time, Jorge, Mario, Bergoglio, are you sleeping?
And there would be no response. And then he asks a third time, Jorge Mario Bergoglio, are you sleeping? And when there was no response on that third time, that's when the Camerlengo, the Chamberlain, officially pronounces the Pope is dead. And one of the first things that he did was destroy the papal ring, sometimes called the fisherman's ring. Traditionally, this was the signet ring that was used to put the Pope's seal on important documents.
And the tradition is that that ring is destroyed right away to prevent any forgeries. You wouldn't have wanted somebody to... steal the ring and make different appointments or move someone around or make a big decision and say, well, this is the Pope's will before he died. It just wasn't released yet. So they destroy the ring right away. That's the tradition.
The Camerlango, the Chamberlain, would have also sealed the papal apartments. That's to prevent any looting, to secure the Pope's private papers and letters and his belongings from being stolen. And then how is it that the world came to know that the Pope had died? This is fascinating. If you're not in Rome, you may not be aware of this, but do you know how the Vatican announces to the world that the Pope has died? They don't hold a big press conference.
They don't just put out a message on X. They don't post something on Instagram. They don't send a text message. You know how they tell the world? It's through the tolling of the bell of St. Peter's. There's the morning bells at St. Peter's Basilica. And what they do is they tol the bell for as many years as the Pope had lived. So for example, in 2005, when John Paul II died,
They told the St. Peter's bell 84 times. Now that would stand out, right? There's bells going off all over the room all the time, but they're usually, it's like one, it goes off once for one o'clock or two for two o'clock, you know, maybe 12 or 12 o'clock, right? But to have a bell go on and on for 24, 48, 50, and all the way up to 84 times, that is signaling to all of Rome, the Pope just died. And that's when everyone starts coming out to St. Peter's to pray for the soul of the Pope.
In this case, we had 88 times for Pope Francis. He was 88 years old when he passed. So the bell at St. Peter's told 88 times. signaling to the city of Rome. And that's when the people came out. to St. Peter's to pray for him. There also was a private ceremony in the Pope's private chapel. This was the tradition that the Camerlengo leads and the Vatican officials and the family would have been there.
But what happens now, though, so we are entering a period known as the interrainium period. Interrainium, Latin for inter for between, rainium for rain. And we are in the interranean period. This is the period between the death of the Pope and the election of a new Pope. It's sometimes also called Sede Vicante, which means the seat. is vacant in Latin, sedia vacante, the seat is vacant, referring to the seat of Peter, the chair of Peter, the office of Peter, which is the line of the papacy.
who's in charge of the vatican many people may wonder like okay so the pope died so what happens well you know in many countries like the united states we have a president And then we have the person called the vice president. So the president dies, the vice president steps in. Well, what happens in the Vatican? Is there a vice pope? Well, there's no vice pope. They don't have that. It's basically the College of Cardinals will keep general oversight over the church.
just keeping things moving. The Vatican officials keep doing their general work. No major decisions are made in this period. The cardinals are having general oversight until the conclave elects a pope. Now, what are some of the other traditions that happen in this Intervenium period? After the Pope dies, one of the first things we have is the private viewing of the body. This is in the first few days after the Pope's death.
And traditionally, going all the way back to the 13th century, there's all these traditional rites where the body of the Pope would be embalmed traditionally and raised on a pedestal. put in the apostolic palace of the Pope for a private viewing. This is where cardinals and Vatican officials, bishops, the hierarchy of the church comes out for a private viewing in the apostolic palace in the Vatican.
And then there was a second step where then the body was moved ceremoniously to another location. It goes into St. Peter's Basilica, and there it would be for public viewing now. So the faithful can come pay their respects. from around Rome and from around the world. Now, what's interesting here is this is not what's happening with Pope Francis. His body is not going to have the traditional rites because in 2024, you may not be aware of this, Pope Francis changed the funeral rites for a pope.
And he wanted it to be simpler, a little less complicated, a little less pomp and circumstance, a little more humble. First of all, he got rid of the two steps, like where the body goes to the Apostolic Palace first for the private viewing and then goes to the St. Peter's Basilica for the public viewing. He got rid of the two steps and says, nope, just bring the body of the Pope to St. Peter's. Let's just keep it simple. We don't need...
The extra movement around, just go straight to St. Peter's. You can do the private ceremony there and the public viewing there. Then that way you don't have to move it twice. You know, so he wanted to be simpler. So it goes straight to St. Peter's. And he also requested that the body of the Pope, including his own, would not be raised on a pedestal.
He wanted to highlight the humility of the Pope. He didn't want it raised up. God's the one that should be exalted in his mind. So he would have the idea that the Pope is just the humble servant of the Lord. Jesus is the exalted one, so he wanted the Pope in the viewing to not be raised on a pedestal.
So we're in right now a period of mourning. Do you know how many days of mourning the church has for the death of a Pope? Nine days. So you can expect from his death, Move forward nine days, so a nine-day period of mourning, and the funeral usually comes within four to six days after a pope's death. Now let's talk about the funeral. What's going to happen at the funeral?
Traditionally, the body of the Pope had been placed in three nested coffins. So each coffin inside another. So three nested coffins. That's another change Pope Francis made in 2024. He said, moving forward for the papal funerals, we just need one simple coffin made of wood. and lined with zinc. Now, the coffin is traditionally closed the night before the funeral, and the Pope's face is usually covered with a white silk veil, and he's buried with two things.
He'll be buried with a bag of coins that were minted during his papacy. So to remember like the year, the time period in which this Pope reigned. And he's going to be buried with a canister carrying a special document called the Rogito. This is a deed listing the various details of his life and his papacy. It's like a Reader's Digest version of the highlights of his life and his pontificate.
That is formally read aloud before the coffin is closed, is put into the canister and then put into the actual coffin for him to be buried with. Now, where? will Pope Francis be buried? That's a big question people have. Where is he going to be buried? Well, normally popes have been buried in St. Peter's. If you go into St. Peter's,
If you've ever been in that basilica, you walk around, you go down to the crypt, you see tons of popes buried down there. You got Paul VI buried down there, popes from many centuries ago, recent popes buried there. But if you also walk on the main level of the basilica, you'll see a number of popes buried there as well. Popes from ancient times, like Gregory the Great, all the way back to the early church. to recent popes like John Paul II. If you walk into St. Peter's Basilica,
And you walk in on the right door. That's the entryway. You pass the Pietà, Michelangelo's famous depiction of Mary receiving the body of Jesus on Good Friday after he died. And then the next chapel next to the Pietà. is a chapel that has St. John Paul II buried there.
So I always bring my pilgrims there, and you can see that that's where he is, and we can remember him and pray at his tomb. And if you go to the center of the basilica, another modern pope is buried there. Near the center, you have John XXIII. St. John XXIII is buried there. So commonly, popes have been buried in St. Peter's, either in the basilica or down on the crypt below. But once again, Pope Francis had new rules instituted that allows for other churches
to be places where a pope can be buried. And guess what? Pope Francis chose not to be buried in St. Peter's. He wanted to be buried in a church that was very dear to him, his favorite church in all of Rome. Do you know what church that is? Think about it. What would be Pope Francis's favorite church? Do you remember when he first became pope when he first came out on the balcony and they announced him as pope? Do you remember? He said tomorrow.
the very first full day of his pontificate, I'm going to go to this church to pray in Thanksgiving. Do you remember what church that is? It's the church. dedicated to mary in rome the principal church dedicated to mary in rome and that's saint mary major is one of the four major basilicas Very dear to him. So he goes there, right there, and prays in thanksgiving at St. Mary Major's right after he became Pope.
During many of his travels, when he would travel around the world, he sometimes would go stop at St. Mary Majors when he would return to Rome on his way home. And another great moving thing about St. Mary Majors in the life of St. Francis is there's a wonderful icon that was important to him that is there at St. Mary Major's. It's the icon of Our Lady called the Salus Popolo Romani, which means the salvation of the people of Rome, or sometimes translated, the health of the people of Rome.
And it's a famous icon attributed to St. Luke. And it's something that in the early church was used in times of great crisis, like Gregory the Great in a time of a great plague when many people were dying in Rome. He had a grand procession with this icon around the city. And then miraculously, the plague went away. And this was important in Pope Francis's pontificate. If you think of probably one of the most moving images of Pope Francis that will go down in history.
is what happened in 2020 at the height of the lockdowns, at the height of the pandemic. when he called for that day of prayer for the world. Do you remember that? And he's there in St. Peter's all alone on this dark, rainy day, and he's praying for the world. And he was out there praying, and he had one icon with him out there in St. Peter's Square. And it was the icon from St. Mary Majors.
the icon of Our Lady, the Saldus Popolo Romani. So this church, this icon, the Blessed Virgin is all really important to Pope Francis. And that's where he will end up being buried. I'm excited for the next time I lead a pilgrimage to be able to go to St. Mary Majors, which is really one of my favorite of the churches in Rome as well, and to be able to go and remember him at his tomb there at St. Mary Majors.
In this endermanium period, let's talk about what's happening next as we move forward. We're also preparing for the conclave. So we look back on the life of Pope Francis, remember him, we pray for his soul. And we also look forward now to who will be the next pope. And there's a number of preparations happening all around. So one of the big things that happens is the Sistine Chapel is closed in the Interranium period. They're setting up for the conclave.
So if you're in Rome at that time, sorry, you're not going to get to see the Sistine Chapel. You could visit the rest of the Vatican museums, but not the Sistine Chapel. And here's something fun. I learned that the Vatican Fire Brigade comes into the Sistine Chapel. Now, this is fascinating. I didn't even know there was a Vatican Fire Brigade, but they come into the Sistine Chapel to set up two stoves.
Why are they setting up two stoves? Is it to keep the cardinals warm during the conclave? No, no, it's there. Those two stoves are there near a chimney in the chapel. because one of the stoves is used to burn the ballot. So after they cast the ballots for who would be the Pope, they burn the ballots after every vote. And then the second stove is used to feed the stove with canisters that produce either black smoke or white smoke.
And there's great symbolism in this, right? Because the black smoke is meant to symbolize, as the smoke goes up the chimney and out to the world, it signals, all right, we had a vote and we don't have a pope yet. That's what black symbolizes.
But they could also put the canister in that produces the white smoke, and that's signaling to the world, okay, we have a pope. Everyone come to St. Peter's. Get ready. We're going to announce who the pope is. So that's why you have the two stoves set up near the chimney. And in this period, outside of the Sistine Chapel,
waiting for the conclave to begin, you start seeing the cardinals around the world gathering casually. They're praying, they're talking together, they're at coffee shops, they're going out for dinners, for lunches, they're at wine bars. And this is where the preparations, you know, it's all informal, all very casual. But there's a lot of conversations happening and they're talking about who it could be. They're thinking about what the church needs. They're introducing.
different people to each other, getting to know each other. And so there's a lot going on on the human level as the cardinals are getting ready to enter into the conclave. Now, let's talk about the conclave itself. Conclave. The word conclave is Latin. Two words put together, con clave, literally meaning with the keys. And what that's describing is how they're sequestered when they go into the conclave. They're locked in together.
locked in with the keys symbolically. They're not allowed to leave. They're not allowed to be on their cell phones and have internet. They're not allowed to have any contact with the outside world. Now, the conclave usually takes place within about 15 to 20 days after a pope's death. And what they'll do is they'll enter the Sistine Chapel at the beginning of the conclave. There'll be a solemn procession in, and then they take the oath of secrecy.
that they will not have any contact with the outside world. They'll never talk about what happens inside the conclave. And all the cardinals of the world are invited to this, but only those under 80 are able to vote. So if you're 81, 82, you can be there, but you don't have voting rights. Now they stay there in the conclave, in the Sistine Chapel, you know, when they're doing the voting.
And then they stay inside the Vatican at the Casa Santa Maria, which is their lodging during the conclave. And to elect a pope, you need two-thirds majority. And you can do up to four voting times a day. How long does it take usually for a conclave to find a pope? Usually a few days. You know, in 2013, it was a quicker vote. 24 hours and five votes took place and they got Pope Francis.
Now, it can take longer sometimes, right? Usually it's a few days. In the 18th century, there was a conclave that took four months. And going all the way back to the 13th century, there was one that took three years. It took three years to find a pope. Let's pray it's not that long this time. As I've mentioned, the ballots every time are burned and you add the black additive to signal no pope.
A white additive is added, and that all of a sudden blows out white smoke up the chimney, and that tells the world that there is a pope. Everyone rushes to St. Peter's Square in Rome to wait the announcement. Now, as the world is learning about the Pope is going to be announced soon, what's happening inside the Vatican? Well, the dean of the College of Cardinals asks the one who was elected, do you accept being the Pope?
Assuming he says yes, then the dean of the college says, what name do you wish to be called as Pope? So John Paul II says John Paul II. Joseph Ratzinger says Benedict XVI. Jorge Bergoglio, 2013. He said, I want to be Francis, Francis I. So we'll find out at that moment who is the next pope and what name he chooses. Then he's dressed in a white papal cassock.
And he goes out to meet all the cardinals who just elected him. And then he goes up to the balcony of St. Peter's and is there that he's announced to the world. They say, we have a pope. And then they announce who he is. his actual name, his baptismal name, and then they announce his papal name, the name he chooses as Pope. And then he comes out to greet the world and we begin with a new papacy.
So I hope this has been helpful. I know a lot of people have a lot of questions about all that goes on in the various rites and ceremonies when a pope dies and how do we elect a new pope. And it's fascinating to see these beautiful traditions in our church.
And be watching out for them as we are with the church. Be continuing to pray. Let's continue to pray in thanksgiving for Pope Francis and to pray for the repose of his soul. And let's already start praying for the College of Cardinals and their discernment. and that God gives us the Pope that we need to lead us into the future. Thanks so much for listening, and God bless.