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Higher High Quality Certified Pro at Angie.com Grief when it comes is nothing we expect it to be. Joan Diddy and wrote that in her book, The Year of Magical Thinking. And boy, was she right. It's nothing we expect it to be, and it's different for everybody. So wherever you are in your grief, I hope you find something in this podcast today that's helpful.
In a few minutes, I'll sit down with President Joe Biden in the White House for a conversation about the losses in his life and how he lives with them. It is, I think, the first time any sitting U.S. President has agreed to do an entire interview solely focused on grief. A couple days before the interview, I was going through a box of stuff in my basement that belonged to my brother Carter. He died by suicide in 1988. I don't have a lot of photos of Carter visible in my house.
I still find it too painful. In the box, there were a bunch of pictures of him, but two in particular stood out. A Polaroid I'd seen before, and a frame black and white photo, which was one of my mom's favorites. It was taken by a friend of his winky Lewis shortly before he graduated Princeton. He's smiling, and he looks so young and so handsome and so happy. Fifteen months later, he killed himself in front of our mom.
He was 23. Sitting on the basement floor, studying his face in these pictures, I found myself weeping. I wasn't sure why at first, but later it hit me. I don't recognize the person in these photos. I don't recognize my own brother. He looks nothing like I remember him. And it's not just that I've forgotten what he looked like 35 years ago. I don't recognize him because I never really knew him. I never knew my own brother. I never allowed myself to. And I never allowed him to know me.
After our dad died, we each, we were treated into ourselves. We had ten years to talk about it. We never did. I want to tell the boy in these photos that I see the sadness is hiding and I see his fear and I want to tell him, I'm sorry. I am so sorry. Why is it so hard to talk about loss and the grief that follows? We keep it hidden away, cry and private, speak the names of our dead and hushed whispers only we can hear. That's what I've done my entire life and I see now the price I've paid.
I think back to what Francis Weller said in last week's episode. When we're asked to carry it alone privately, we end up carrying it around in new halls, dragging this weight behind us. And in that privatization, in that sense of having to sequester my grief within my own being, I feel like I'm all alone in this. And that's one of the most intolerable places for the soul to be. I think he's absolutely right and it does feel intolerable. That's one reason I wanted to talk with President Biden.
He's been so public about the pain of loss he's experienced and he's managed to stay engaged in the world. He isn't the only president, of course, to have experienced terrible tragedy, but none have been willing to share so much about it publicly, particularly when they were in office. More than 15 US presidents have lost children. John Adams, John Quincy Adams, and Thomas Jefferson all lost four of their kids.
Jefferson was said to have carried a lock of hair, belonging to one of his deceased daughters all his life. Abraham Lincoln watched two sons die. His 11-year-old Willie died in the White House, likely of typhoid. His funeral was held in the East Room. John F. Kennedy also lost a son while serving as president, a newborn named Patrick, who only lived about 39 hours. Both Roosevelt's experience the deaths of children as did Eisenhower, Ronald Reagan, and George H. W. Bush.
His three-year-old daughter Robyn died of leukemia in 1953. President Biden's first wife, Nelia, and their 13-month-old daughter Naomi were killed in a car crash in 1972. His young sons, Bo, and Hunter were badly injured. Bo died of cancer in 2015. The White House had set up two chairs for the President and I to sit in, facing each other at some distance in the library of his residence. It was a standard set-up for a standard interview with the President, but it seemed too formal to me.
So I asked if they'd bring a table we could sit around, something we could lean forward on, and if the President was so inclined, talk more intimately, face to face. They brought a table in, we arranged the microphones, and then the President appeared. We shook hands, he sat down, and we began to speak. I know you're reluctant to talk about your grief publicly because people have suffered worse, you've said, and you've gotten support that other people haven't got.
And I know that given all that's happening in the world and all the suffering that we're seeing, it may seem trivial to talk about one person's suffering, but I do think it helps people to hear from others who have survived grief and live with grief as you have. And I know it's the only thing that's really helped me, so thank you for doing this. I'm happy to do it. Look, one of the first things I learned after I got that phone call, when I was down here, 1972.
And I got a phone call from the Fire Department at home in Delaware. And they put a young woman on the phone when the first responders said, you got a commomb, there's been an accident. And I said, what's the accident? Well, your wife and three kids were hit by a tractor trailer and you should come home. And the poor kid, she was a young woman, said, you wasted it. You don't understand, and your boys have really hurt. Your daughter was 13 months old?
Yeah, 13 months old. My boys were not quite three, not quite four, a year in a day apart. And I just remember, like a lot of people feel, I think, I remember walking out through the capital, looking up at the heaven saying, why'd you do, you know, was angry? Like I was talking to God, I don't know, it sounds strange, but it was, I was really angry. You were just 30, you just been elected to the Senate. You'd fallen in love with this woman on a beach in the Bahamas.
Nelia was her name, and Naomi was your daughter. Yeah. Did you know how to grieve at that time? Well, I won the gene pause raised by a mom and a dad who were, my mom was a person of faith. My dad was a guy, I'd been through some tough times and just got up, the saying and the family was, just get up, just get up. And when you get knocked down, just get up. And I had the great advantage because when it happened to me, I had a whole family. My deceased wife and I had purchased the home.
It had a barn, my brother moved in and turned the barn into a little apartment. My sister and her husband left their place and moved in with me to help me raise the kids. And we have an expression on our family. If you have to ask us too late, I mean, for real. And they were there and my mom lived and my dad lived, not, but... You wrote about that time, you said you felt trapped in a constant twilight of vertigo, like in the dream where you're suddenly falling, only I was constantly falling.
And you went on to say, I began to understand how despair led people to just cash it in, how suicide wasn't just an option, but a rational option. Did you actually feel that? Did you actually think about that? Well, I thought about, I can understand how people could do it. I didn't contemplate as per say, because I had two boys that needed me. You wrote that, you looked at them when they were sleeping and you said, who would explain to my sons my being gone? That's true.
Look, you can see how people, when they've been to the top of the mountain, had everything, their life was like wonderful and everything gets crushed. How they could say, I'm never going to be there again, so I don't want to do this anymore. But, you know, one thing I did do, I mainly Irish, I never meant to never had a drink.
And, well, I actually got downstairs in the house, we were still living in the boys and I. And I take out a bottle of liquor and put on the table and say, I'm going to drink, I'm going to get drunk. I never took a drop, but I stared it. You know, just how do you escape? There was a senator McLellan, was his name, who had lost a number of his own kids. And he advised you to bury yourself in work. He said to you, work, work, work, work. I buried myself in work, how much of my life for this reason?
Well, did you do that or did you not? I did that in a sense that I didn't want to stay in the sin that I was going to leave. I did my brother talking to the governor about a replacement for me. You were criticized the time for not spending more time in Washington for going home every night. It's not like I'd be with your boys. But I did, every single night, I got a train to go home because I wanted to kiss him good night. And every night, no matter what time I got home, sometimes it was late.
They'd be in bed, I'd climb in bed with each of them individually. That was 51 years ago. And my dad died when I was 10 years old and my brother when I was 21. And I still have a heart attack talking about it. And I wondered if 51 years later on, is it something that's still, do you think about it every day still? I got really lucky. No man deserves one great love, let alone two. My youngest brother set me up on the blind date five years after I lost.
And Jill had to ask her five times to marry me, but literally. But my boys were in good shape, they were coming along. Again, I had just an incredible family. I told you the expression of the family was just get up, you can knock down, get up. And I heard one of your podcasts about how you started on packing boxes and how difficult it was. Yeah, I've been going through my mom's box, it's still there all in my basement stuff.
Well, I get that one because I purchased this home that we loved and it was a neat house. We loved it. But every time I couldn't take any more open in the closet and smell the fragrance, or walking through a room and having a memory or packing up the clothing, I mean, that was a really, really, really hard. And so I decided that we're just going to sell house, going to move, and we did. But it was a really difficult time because it was all still so raw.
Fast forward about ten years later, I built a home. And I built on a pond and across the pond was a woods. I remember we had a fundraiser for my campaigns, we'd do it at my home, and my dad would come and we're standing out in this back porch looking over this pond. And I didn't think I'd be modeling. I said, you know, I wish Nelia could have seen this because she lived up in the finger legs, and like skating apples, love the legs.
And my dad went up to the local hallmark store and came back with a frame version of Hagar at the Harbour. And the little comic book. And the Viking with his ship. And there's two frames in it. One where his ship gets struck by lightning, and he's standing looking up a god and saying, why me? And the next frame is, a voice in heaven says, why not? My dad handed it to me. And so don't forget it on me.
My mom always used to, my mom had experienced a lot of tragedies in her life and witnessing the death of my brother in front of her. And she never said, she would never ask why me. She would always say, why not me? Why should I be exempt from the suffering of others? My mother was ahead of me because it was, I mean, I was my dad though, you know, you can't feel sorry for yourself. So many other people go through so much more than you've gone through.
You never said it that way, but it was like, you know, why would you be exempt? You and I have both spoken to Stephen Colbert about grief. And he was on the podcast. And one of the things he said to me, I'm so afraid to talk about grief because they think it's a trap of depression. He says grief is a doorway to another you because you're going to be a different person on the other side of it. Do you feel like you're a better person because of the grief you've experienced?
Well, that would be presumptuous to me to say I'm better or worse, but I'm slightly different. I find myself focusing on things. Probably the best things ever happened to me was one of the worst things. When I was a kid, I studied badly, like that. And I was the run of the litter too. I was always a little guy. And I used to hate the fact I studied. It was, it was tighting me up so much, having to read aloud in school or those kinds of things were really hard.
But I realized it was a great lesson I learned because everybody has something they can't fully control. And so it turned out to be a great gift for me that I studied. I think the upside of going through what I went through was making me realize that there's so many people out there who've gone through so damn much. And they have none of the kind of help I had. I really think there's a lot of heroes. Get up every morning, put one foot in front of them. I don't know how to do it.
Don't know how they do it. We're going to take a short break. We'll have more of my conversation with President Biden in a moment. Hi, I'm Angie Hicks, co-founder of Angie. When you use Angie for your home projects, you know all your jobs will be done well. Roof repair? Done well. Kitchen sink install? Done well. Deck upgrades? Done well. Electrical upgrade? Done well. Angie's been connecting homeowners with skilled pros for nearly 30 years.
So we know the difference between done and done well. Higher high quality certified pros at Angie.com. All there is with Anderson Cooper is supported by BetterHelp. Unfortunately, we don't get an owner's manual for ourselves. There are no simple instructions for what to do when we feel down or when we have relationship problems or family conflicts. That's when therapy can help. And BetterHelp is a convenient way to get started. It's 100% online, flexible and surprisingly affordable.
Connect with a licensed therapist by phone, video or online chat at a time that works for you. Visit BetterHelp.com slash all there is today to get 10% off your first month. That's BetterHLP.com slash all there is. Welcome back to All There Is. Now more of my conversation with President Joe Biden.
You talked about the stuttering as a gift. It's interesting because Stephen Colbert also, one of the things he once said to me, which really struck me, he talked about a realization that he had had that he was grateful for his grief. And he quoted a line that JR Tolkien, the writer, wrote saying, what punishments of God are not gifts. And when I asked Stephen if he really believed that, he said that yes, and he explained that he had gratitude for the pain of grief.
It doesn't take the pain away. It doesn't make the grief less profound. In some ways, it makes it more profound because it allows you to look at it. It allows you to examine your grief in a way that is not like holding a red hot ember in your hands. But rather seeing that pain as something that can warm you and light your knowledge of what other people might be going through. Do you feel grateful for your grief? No, I don't feel grateful for it.
But I feel that it's given me an insight. Look, I was reading it. An insight into other people. Yeah, and I was sort of raising the family where you were expected to reach out to people. It wasn't something you had to go through something horrible. I remember at my, you know, I joke it. You know, I learned my values and my grandpa's fitting his kitchen table up his screen when he used to say, do you remember your man, your word without your word, you're not a man?
He talked about how he lost his son, Ambrose Finnegan in the war. And he talked about all the good pieces of them and why he was so special and how the families stuck together. And, you know, and my dad went through some tough times. But my dad just got back up. That was the ethos in the family. Yeah, you know, it really was. I mean, it was throughout the family.
Just this past year, I've kind of had what I consider kind of an awakening to this grief that I buried very long ago when I was very young. When I wasn't able to deal with it as a little boy, I still feel overwhelmed almost on the verge of being overwhelmed by it. And I'm wondering, do you ever still feel overwhelmed by grief? I do, as it relates to my son, Beau.
Beau. You don't, 2015. Yeah, he was, he had been in Iraq, unfortunately, for a year, next to one of those burn pits and got clear of lastoma, brain disease. He was 46, when he died. Yeah, well, when he came home, it was clear that it was a descend. It wasn't a question of if, but when he was going to die, how long it would take. But I think you have to find purpose, purpose beyond your pain. And from you have to find some meaning to get you through.
Something to, you know, to keep you completely engaged. And I had two things. For example, every single day, I talked to everyone of my children, a grandchildren, or a wife. I mean, literally, I text them every single day. I talked to them. The thing that saved me in Jill with Beau was the fact that we have these kids and just keep reaching out, to keep touching them. I know you have two children now, but I mean, they were my salvation. They were, you know, they, uh...
Even when, when Nelia died, you've said that it was Beau and Hunter, little kids at the time that saved you. Absolutely. I remember riding, we were in the car, I guess five years old, six years old, and we're riding along on the top of the town. Those days you could put a kid in your lap. I would look at it on my lap. I should remember this day. That was crazy. And, uh, and all of it, we stopped at the stop sign, and we were in the country.
And he looked up, he looked out, and all these cows are out and crazy. He looked at it, he said, daddy, I love you. More than a whole sky, the whole sky. And, you know, I'd get home, and they could tell to when I was down. And they'd just be there. In your book, your last book, on the back page was a beautiful photo of Beau when he was eight or nine, and he's turning and he's waving to the camera. And you said somewhere that that's the age you always see him in your mind's eye.
And I'm wondering if that's still true. Yeah. It is. The smile is just waving, he's walking into the garden. And, uh, look, um, Beau and Hunt, they finished each other sentences. They were closest, they could possibly be. And I think the loss of Beau was a profound, profound impact on Hunter. But, when she was like, I married, she was just totally embraced by them. Everything we've done, we've always done as a really close-knit family.
We were talking about, we were talking about being overwhelmed at times, and you brought up Beau. And I'm wondering, um, I read a book by Evan Osnos who wrote a book about you. And he talked to a couple of people who knew you. And some of them said that after Beau's death that they saw a change in you, and one person said, it was almost physical. You could see it in how he stood. He wasn't the old college football player anymore. He emerges the sort of humbled, purposeful man.
And I'm wondering, how do you think Beau's death altered your sense of yourself? Well, I think it, um, it made me a little more fatalistic, so it caused me an enormous pain because, um, he should be the one sitting there talking to you. Beau, he was a better man than I am, and so was Hunter. Both boys were always looking out for me, taking care of me. If they thought I was getting down, they'd, hey, dad, come here, we're gonna do boom, boom, boom.
You've talked about how Beau made you promise you weren't gonna turn inward, and that you weren't gonna step back from all the things that you devoted your life to. And I'm wondering, how do you, how do you do that when you feel like your heart is taken away from you? How do you, how do you not turn inward? Because I turned inward when I was a little kid, and I'm not sure I've ever emerged from that. Well, I tell you how exactly what happened.
Jill and I went home on a Friday night to see Beau, he didn't have much time left, he wasn't in the hospital bed, but he was, it was clear with a diagnosis of reading. Anyway, he said, it was wife, we put the kids up there, I wanna talk to dad, he said, dad, he said, look at me, dad. And there's this tradition of Noel Helking from our family, I said, if you want someone to look at me, dad, and he pointed, look at me, dad, I said, I'm looking, Johnny.
He said, I want your word as a bite, promise me, promise me, it'll be okay when I go. I said, boy, I don't wanna talk about it, I said, dad, promise me. I know you, dad, you're gonna want to quit, you're gonna want to go, you're not gonna want to do it anymore. Dad, promise me, you will not quit. Give me your word, dad. I said, boy, I said, dad, give me your word, dad. And I made a promise. He knew me better than I know me, and he knew my instinct could be just turn inward.
Do you still fill him with you? I do all the time, I ask myself, I promise you, I promise you, I ask myself all the time, what would I do? A difficult decision. Do you literally feel him in good days I feel people I've lost with me, but there's a loneliness to grief I find. There is. But look, when I had an advantage, I still had Ashley, I still have Hunt. I could call some of my daughter and my son's, dad, how you doing today? I mean, okay, good doing well. I mean, it's constant contact.
Do you feel alone in your grief still at all? No, because I think that Bo's death was even more profound for Hunter and for Ashley. They were like one person. I mean, you're wearing Bo's rosary right now. I am, the Surrey Lady of Guadalupe. It's interesting, I talked to a palliative care doctor named BJ Miller and he said to me that the loneliness, so many people feel in grief, is itself a bond. And that maybe people can come to see it as a communal experience.
There's a communal experience in that loneliness, ironic. Well, there is, at least in my family, and people who are really close to Bo. And we'll be sitting there sometimes, and I haven't talked about anything and all of a sudden, my daughter will say, you know, remember when Bo did that, we were at the beach, remember that time Bo did, boom, boom, boom. And you're able to tell those stories? Yeah, I think because we forced ourselves to do it.
And now it's kind of like a clue that holds together. I mean, it's beautiful. Well, really, I mean, Bo's two children. We're with them all the time. I mean, we, you know, Natalie's turn out to be such an incredible kid. She's happy, she's doing really well. Her son's a handsome young boy. Every single thing's giving. Since before Bo passed away. We go to an end-tucket because that's her Bo like to go as a family. And all of us together, because it's just the memories.
I spoke to a woman named Rachel Goldberg a couple of weeks ago in Israel. Her son, Hirsch, had part of his left arm blown off in a bomb shelter when he was hiding from Hamas. And he's been taken hostage. And she was on a call with you. She told me about 10 other Americans who's loved once or probably being held hostage. She said that there was another mother on the Zoom call. Two of her children were missing. She'd already been informed that one of her children was dead.
And during the call, she got up even that she came back in and unmuted the Zoom. She said, I'm sorry to break in, but I've just been told my other child has been found dead. And she was screaming. And Rachel said that you cried and everybody cried. And then after some time, according to Rachel, you said, I know loss. I've lost two children. I lost my wife. And I'm telling you that you need to go through this. You also need to remember that you will be strong again for your family.
And Rachel said to me that it wasn't platitudes, that it was a real moment of a father whose lost two children talking to a mother, whose also lost two children. There's not a lot of people who are able to step into other people's pain the way you are willing to. Look, I mean, you know, I just, I can remember the worst of all feelings I've ever had in my life, where I didn't know where the two boys were alive when I was going home with her. That accident call.
And I'm told that my wife was dead on top of my one son, my daughter was dead on top of my other son. And it took several hours and it jaws her life to get them out. And what I've never been able to do, some people can't, I never wanted to know the detail. I didn't want to know any of the details. I was on a committee on transportation in the United States Senate. And I was about trucks and brakes. I couldn't hold her in. I didn't want any part of that. I couldn't do it.
And I remember when we, I told you to be sold the house that we had, and the house we moved into, I had moved all those boxes you talk about. I moved on the third floor, a bunch of boxes I had never opened. And I opened one of them, open one of the boxes that had never been opened. This side was going to throw out, not there, about 15 boxes in that third floor, a attic room. And there was a scrapbook.
And someone thinking they were doing me a favorite, kept a scrapbook of the accident, and they opened it up. And there was a picture of the car. And I closed it. I took it downstairs and I burned it. I could not. I could not. I don't want to know the detail. I don't want to know the detail. I'd like to pray God that that car hit and they were gone. And the boys don't remember anything. But you know, well, I just think it's really, really, really difficult for that woman to get that news.
The hardest part was going home because I wasn't sure the message I got did not sure the boys are going to make it. I know they're a dead or alive going home. Just finally, because I know we're out of time, there's a psychopath therapist named Francis Weller who's on the podcast.
And one of the things he writes, he said, our refusal to welcome the sorrows that come to us, our inability to move through these experiences with true presence and conscious awareness condemns us to a life shadowed by grief, welcoming everything that comes to us is the challenge. This is the secret to being fully alive. I very much want to get to that place. I'm not sure I can. But do you feel like you're in that place? It's one thing to welcome it. Nothing to deal with it.
I don't anybody who welcomes grief. I didn't welcome it, but you got to confront it. You got to deal with it. Look at it. Understand it and decide I'm moving on. Because I have another purpose in life, my two children are alive, my grandchildren, my wife, my whatever it is. It's not welcoming grief. It's facing it.
And one of the things I tell people that Mama will come when the memory of the one you lost that you're dealing fighting through, where you're going to open one of those boxes and you're going to smile before you cry, that's you know you're going to make it. Time will come, but you've got to face it. But it's hard as hell. And like I said, the thing I mean is in the bottom of my heart, my word is a Biden. I think it's critical that people understand that they're always going to be with you.
Your mother is in your heart every single day. Your brother is tarpils that was for your mother and for you. Your brother put it in your heart. You're there. They're every single day. And they'll come a time as you face it to this. And I'm no psychiatrist. Stayed the obvious. But when you can sort of welcome that, that you have that, you had that, that it was there. I think the hardest thing must be to deal with your brother's circumstance.
Yeah, I get stuck in the way his life ended as opposed to how he lived his life. Bingo, that's what I mean. Look, you know, it's really hard as hell to figure out. I found myself spending a lot of time. What could I have done? Was it my fault? This all happened? What could I have done differently? I think about that a lot. What could I have done differently? Maybe I shouldn't have been, you know, a community.
Maybe I, for example, right after this happened, you know, it was a, it was a Ford station wagon. I thought, well, maybe I had the wrong car. If they'd been another car, maybe it's what happened to do. Maybe they, you know, or if you can endlessly go through the doors. And eventually, what you get to is like, I, I go, I'm going to reveal myself here. I shouldn't do this probably. The president is reaching into his pants pocket and pulls out a small silver object.
It's another kind of rosary and he's holding it in his hand. I find solace in my faith and all the stories about how the Irish were persecuted. You know, we screened all this stuff to talk about. And this is called a prisoner's rosary. And they weren't allowed to have rosaries like Lady of Guadaloupe in Irish prisons during that famine. But they had these. And I find myself, you know, going to bed, just saying a decade, just holding on. And it's almost a road.
But it's just, I feel connected to bow to, to Naomi, to, to Nelia. But again, I think. It's beautiful to have that faith, too. Well, again, it's almost, it's almost more of a feeling than it is a articulatable, able to articulate the detail of it. But I just think that, that the time is going to come when God willing, I'm going to, I'm going to see Him again. And I know that sounds probably. No, I think about that all the time, too. It's a, because look, she's in your heart, he's in your heart.
I mean, you can't look in the mirror and not see her. You can't, I'm presumptioned to say that. No, it's the amazing thing is my kids look like my mom and look like my brother. It's amazing. Well, by the way, bow's son looks like him. Hunter's son looks like bow. Bow named his son Hunter and Hunter named his son Bow. I mean, it's like, I know it sounds stupid to people having been through this people. But there's this thing.
And I even find that I'll find one of my grandchildren doing what Bow would have done. I mean, literally what Bow would have done. You see that the cycles repeat in families. You see the, yes. I mean, you see in the eyes of your grandchildren, the eyes of your son. I do. Mr. President, thank you for your time. Well, thank you. And I appreciate you, Sher. I think you're sharing your situation with so many people.
It gives them hope because a lot of people think I must be the only one that's happened to me. Yeah. When they know other people are there, are they? It's the strangest thing about grief is I mean, it's this universal human experience. And yet, it feels so lonely and went to a so alone in it. And it is. And people are, and a lot of people aren't inclined to talk about it either. They don't know how to or want to it. Anyway, I've never known anybody who has it benefits from all the money.
Talk about it. I agree. Thank you, sir. As my mother said, God love you, dear. That was President Joe Biden at the White House on November 7. I hope hearing the President, one of the most powerful people in the planet, talk about his grief will help you talk about yours as hard as it is. It helps to talk. Next week on All There Is, Katie Talman, a podcast listener who left me a voicemail about the death of her daughter, Everly.
It's a conversation about the pain of losing a child and the crushing isolation she felt in her grief. I was at a grocery store. And I remember feeling like nobody could see me. And I was just screaming inside. And really, I just wanted to talk about her. I wanted to have permission to speak about her. Because I felt like I wasn't allowed to. I was supposed to sweep that under the rug like it never happened. And it was all of me. That's next week on All There Is. Thanks for listening.
All There Is is a production of Scene An Audio, the show is produced by Grace Walker and Dan Bloom. Our senior producers are Haley Thomas and Flesha Patinkin. Dan DeZula is our technical director and Steve Licktie is the executive producer of Scene An Audio. Support from Charlie Moore, Carrie Rubin, Shimmery Cheetreet, Ronnie Betis, Alex Manesseri, Robert Mathurs, John DeAnora, Lenie Steinhardt, James Andres, Nicole Peseroux, and Lisa Namro. Special thanks to Katie Hinman.