Van Lathan & Travon Free | Ep 87 | ALL THE SMOKE Full Episode | SHOWTIME Basketball

us how that came about. For me. It was like last year, everybody saw the same video what happened to George, and you know, we were all in quarantine, and you know,

we finally had a reason to go back outside. And it was just like it experiencing those marches and the protests and seeing how the energy around these names and these people have been built up in a way that I had never experienced it before, or like the whole world was protesting, And it was like through internalizing that and experiencing every day because we were going out like every day, like just wanting to be out there every day. And when you when you're kind of internalizing that the

pain of hearing a different name. Hearing Brianna's story, hearing the Moss story, seeing George's story, you feel like you're just living in that loop like of emotions every single day. You just go through it over and over and over again, and in that cycle, you just you go from like anger, sadness, hopelessness, and then hopefully back to being hopeful again and trying to figure out, you know, how can we stop this

ship from happening. And when I had that idea of like or that that thought of like this feels like the worst version of groundhold, it was just like, you know, I gotta I gotta do something with that, it just kind of stuck with me. And it was that script, Like I just went and and and wrote that script. I wrote it in like five days, and um, yeah, it's just well it was one of those things too.

It was like, my my background is TV writing, so you know, you have to write a half hour script in a week when you get an assignment on us on the show, and nobody was working, nobody was doing nothing, and I was like, well, I need something to do anyway, Like I can pour this energy into this thing that I already know how to do. And you know, just

see what kind of comes out of it. And then I tell Van about it and he read it and he was like, you gotta you gotta do this like this year, because we were like toying with like do we wait, do we like shoot this like next year at the time, and now he was so like vands are like everybody's like we like the idead comes and he comes with the script and I think his TV background is like he's used to pitching something and getting

the feelers on it and see how it goes. And I remember met him and Nick Um when we started our companies six ft Over. We had already been having like meetings about what it was that we wanted to go out with, and we're talking about all of these great things we're talking about. We're putting together pitch decks. Man,

We're go and sit down the studios. We have Flyers animated show, we got all of this different ship and then he goes, you know, I got this idea man, it's like a groundhogs Day thing and it's like it has to do with police violence. And listen to them talking about I'm like, nigga, are you sick? Like that's the idea, Like we gotta do that right now, and

we can't wait. Like if we look at it, just the design of everything was that this was gonna be a time where there wasn't much content that was coming out right, where people felt hamstrung, They felt like they couldn't overcome the obstacles that were in a way of getting your art out right now, we had everything we needed. We had to create a vision. We had all of the sort of connections we could get it all done. We had great partners with people over at Dirty Robber.

I didn't even know who they were yet, right, and so it was like we get this done now, we get a chance to contextual a lot at this moment for so many people. And after that it was just gas pedal to the end, Like nobody took a breath, especially in not tre Vonne in March. How difficult was it? I mean, if you guys can answer, but bringing all this together during COVID because nobody was shooting, nobody was

doing nothing. I'm sure the budget was all over the place because like I said, there's so much uncertainty during that time. It was I mean, keeping it real real, it was insane, like everything we were trying to do defied logic of how this stuff works, of what's possible even in the non pandemic, like all of it, like none of it was all just like we're just gonna aim for the moon and see like what happens. And there was this energy around the project where it just

wanted to happen. It just wanted to work out. Like every wall we hit, we found a way through it. And so it was like write the script. In July August, we start raising money. We go to KD, we go to Mike Connolly, we go uh, like everybody's just like ask whoever you know, whoever you need come to me, Ask ask whoever you know who will give us any

amount of money to do this. And what makes that even crazier is they weren't even allowing people to shoot, Like there was no guarantee that we could do all this, raise all the money, get to the point where we are ready at the start line and actually be able to shoot it. And so we're just doing it with the hope that we get to September maybe they might allow people to start shooting again. So we get Joey.

In the beginning of August, Andrew was like the first person I told about it before I even wrote it, and he's on board. We get the cast. Things are everybody's like on board, and we just chase the money, chase some money, chase the money while we also chasing permits and setting up the bank account. We started with zero dollars. We finished production with less than zero dollars.

And we got to the point where we were when we even we were filming, when we were able to film, we didn't have enough money to finish all five days of filming. We were still chasing money while we were shooting. So we got the money for like the last two days while we were filming the actual movie. And so it was all just like building the plane while you fallen out of the sky together and every I hear you not man every step of the way, like it

was just like blessing, blessing, blessing, blessing, blessing. Like the permits they take four to six weeks, we got them in three days. Like all these things that were supposed to be obstacles that was supposed to make this impossible to stay, the COVID stuff that that we we raised like three almost three thousand dollars, like which would which

would have been enough to like shoot the movie. And we get we finally get to SAG and they're like, so you need to have a company, a COVID company like approved, like create a plan for you guys, is like testing and everything. We find a company. It's literally half of the money we raised. So it's like, spend the money. Spend half of your money that you already have to be able to do the movie, but now you don't have enough money to do So we're like, well, ship,

we gotta do it. We just have to go find more money, more money. And so I'm like van Nick, everybody to me or everybody just go get five dollars from somebody, getting like whatever you can get Nick. But the crazy thing about it was that we had so many people working on the problem. So many people were cooking,

like we didn't even know what other people's recipes. Like we're at Lawrence's house, Lawrence Been or another producer in the movie and me and Trayvon were talking, were talking about getting the finance right, and me and Trayvon said, then we said, okay, well, you know, to start off, if we have to go on our own pockets and pay for the movie, then we'll do that. That That was me saying that, not thinking that that was actually

going to happen. Right, God, it will come up within some kind of way, but now we had to and it was one of the first things to where the commitment that I had to make, the first commitment I had to make was to myself, was that this is something that I'm willing to gamble on. Because you spend X amount of dollars on a short, that's money that you have to be okay with not getting that back. So it was a lesson for me and that the idea and the art had to be more than the game.

And that's a hard step to make. Everybody want to make something dope, so you can go out and tour on it, get on a jet with it, get a deal with it, get let into all of the clubs with it. But when you're making it just to get it off your chest, that's normally when you hit your mark, you know what I mean. And Samir was instrumental because funny story about like Samir. Samir is a guy who we added to six ft over a little bit later, but he was the one that was doing the Mike

Conley stuff. And the Rich climbing that Kevin Durant shout out Mike, Mike Conley, Kevin Durant, Rich Climbing for being a part of the pro for being a part of the project. Yeah. And so I talked to Durant, me and him DM sometimes right, and so I'm hearing that he's gonna be on the project or he's on the project. So I shoot him a d M. Go hey, bro here, we're gonna be working together. No response. So I'm thinking that no response. I'm thinking, well, damn, do we really

even have that fucking money? Like, are we're gonna be stuff to do? We? Is this something Nigga telling Samir that he's Kevin Durant and give the brand so so and everything. But another thing is stress demands that you sit in it, right. So whenever you stressed out about something, one one crucial ingredient to stress is concentration. In order to be stressed about something, you have to concentrate on on what's wrong with you, right, And we all do that.

We're like our bodies are wired to do that, right. We're wired to concentrate on what's going wrong so we can fix it. As a pro evolution of the trade. In this situation, we just did not have time to be stressed out. We didn't have time. I sent the list of people that I know in this business, all of my pro black warriors that I sent this script to and asked to be involved. It's a who's who in the industry, and of all of that, none of

those people came through. And it's not it's not even a shot to them, it's just it was something we had to do. You aren't gonna get no help. Yeah, we had one guy, my bad one guy came through after a while, shout out to shout out, He's gonna be piste off, puffed it, puffed it. Puff Di were like, Puff was my big cat. So after after a while, Puff came through them. You know, Puff was very instrumental. He helped us out. But it was something we had to do ourselves and with with the people who want

to be a part of it. So chuck me because I'm I'm in this space. Take me through the process you guys created the film. Did you take into any festivals? I heard? I heard you guys sold to Netflix eventually, right, So take us to the process of once you made it, it it premiered. What was that route? So we we shot it. We got it. At that point, we got nobody. It's just us. It's just a movie we paid for and made. And you know, we were courting Netflix, like yo,

like we got this movie. All of us have Netflix connections. We're trying to get them to buy into it and like, you know, help us pick up this bill that we like are trying to pay. And they kind of was like around around, and they just ghosted us. And so November comes. You gotta like the only festival we were able to even submit to time Wise with Sundance, and they rejected us um and so we're like, well, all we have left is we can submit for the Oscars. And so that was like I think December one or

a second. We submit, and we are just like kind of waiting around, like hoping, you know, because you find out if you actually qualified. Once you submit, you don't guarantee you qualify. You have to meet all these like yeah, and so we qualified. We're like cool. Now we're like okay, so we not only do we have negative money, were like, oh, like a hundred thousand dollars to the movie or some

crazy number. And now we need to hire publicists to represent the movie so that we can like campaign because we submitted for the Oscars. Like cool, all right, So we we started like everyone's like Rogers, this dude Rodgers and Cowen is supposed to be the best. He wrapped Kobe's movie. They want, They wrapped Parasite they want like so it's like, go talk to this dude. So we go. We find Craig Craig rivy At at Rogers and Cowen and he's like yeah, cool, Like yeah, normally we don't

do stuff this last minute. Like normally we get a movie a year in advance and then we campaign throughout the year. That's the neural process. Y'all want us to pick up the movie literally a month before the OSCAR voting starts, and so we're like yeah, we kind of like that's what we want to do. And so like, look, I can't I can't guarantee y'all like anything will happen,

but we could try. Also, the bill is gonna be like when it's all setting down, like close to three thousand dollars or something like that, and at this point we're like who the fun Like who okay? Um? And so we just like we right, we just like, let's let's do it. And luckily for me, I had just sold the movie to Apple, so the check came the week after this phone call, so I was able to just pay as we went whatever we needed up until

the point that we could find distribution. And so once we got nominated UM, Netflix was like, hey remember us, and they they paid real they had to make up for the fact that they was at the dance before it started and then came along and so they we

don't have no bills no more. To put this point, I do want to shout out one one group though, I want to shout to people from Tribeca because I sent it to Amy Schumer and Amy Schumer this is the first time I knew at the movie really was going up right, because I sent it to Amy Schuman, and the Amy Schuman turned around and she got the people from the Tribeca Film Festival involved and there was like a conversation with them about them accepting it to

Tribeca UM. But that's not until August of this year, so we would have had to wait the whole cycle. So there was some festival love out there. But that's like the first time they were so enthusiastic about the movie. And I want to shout the people at Tribeca Film Festival. That was the first time that I realized, Hey, like this product, Yeah this people love this. And it happened right after, Like she was like the next day after we found out we didn't get into Sunday and I

was like, yo, they really want them. They wanted it. Like I was like, okay, so we're not like crazy, So the movie's good, right, Like Amy goes right away, she goes crazy, she sends it over. We talked to the lake. We just cadn't make it work. But I want to make sure that they know that, like we appreciate it that even though we went the way that we went, we had to wait. Hat tell someth now,

so Oscar Night comes, walk us through that night. I mean, you guys have made it, and I mean, obviously it's a dream, but when you're actually there was to pitch yourself what was actually like, Yeah, man, I didn't I hadn't slept in like four months, where like not like I'm not even exaggerating, like I thought I was sleeping from January to April and and it wasn't until the night after everything was over and we won, and I went to bed that night and I was like, oh,

like that's what sleep feels like, because the stress of it was fast. Not even was it fast, but every day you are spending five hours a day talking about police brutality, just really like talking about it every single day all day. And then right before nominations, Dante right gets killed all of our press. We had finally gotten the press to a point where it was about the filmmaking. It was about like what we did and like the

art of it. All after we had beat the like talking about the police stuff to death and the that happens and it all shifts back and it's like all immediate, and it's like every interview wants to talk about Downtay Right, everybody wants to talk about the Shovin verdict about to come out the next week. And then the verdict comes. It comes down the last day of voting, so people

have one more day to vote. The Shovin verdict comes out and it's two hours left to vote, and Hollywood Reporter Rights immediately puts out a piece about our movie, and like, just like the timing of it all was just so crazy, like every part of like what we went through. It just the fact that we got nominated

around the time the trial started. It just kept lining up with the whole thing where our movie was the most in the moment right now movie in the entire every movie, and people were telling us like, yo, y'all, movie is more talked about than like the Best Picture nominees and it's short, and it was just like we just hit this part of the Zeit guys with what people were feeling and what was happening in the country in a way that just we never could have imagined

or predicted. And it's crazy because you say timing is everything that it is, but I'm convinced of something now is that timing is everything, But timing is also divine. Things happen at the time that they're supposed to, and the best thing that you can do is be prepared because when it's your time, you gotta be able to

meet the moment. We were having a production call about whether or not to start this whole thing with premiering the movie at Tribeca later on and then going for this the awards season and the festival season next year, or whether or not to do it now, And I remember Lawrence says something, Lawrence Bender, what if I produced a shout to Lawrence Bender and Jesse Williams. Lawrence said, in order for us to get this done this year, I'm just letting you guys know that everything would have

to go perfectly. And when you hear that, that's daunting, because like what goes perfectly? Nothing? You know what I mean, he goes Everything would have to go perfectly, and for whatever reason it did, I mean it wasn't when you look back on it, it didn't go perfectly, but it went exactly the way that it was supposed. And so man, it's like I never was a part of anything like

that before Beautiful. Yeah, it felt like magic man. Obviously, winning an Oscar is a is a tremendous honor, But what is it like to win an Oscar when you're telling such an important, timely story, Because I mean, obviously you can make a great film and hey, we want the Oscar, but it's a great peace like this was important and timely as well. So how how how much

did that add to the excitement of actually winning? That was the thing that probably made me the most like nervous throughout the whole process, like stressed out throughout the whole process because we had made this movie that was so not what you normally see in the Academy, not

the kind of stuff you normally see them embrace. And we had been told from the beginning, it's like, yo, y'all gotta walk this really really really fine line, because this like love it or not, Like this body of voters is like older white people, and we we not only have this big black team of creatives and producers, but we also have a movie about the most hot button thing being talked about in the country right now, and you know, they can either flat out reject it

or they can like embrace it. And when we got shortlisted, we were like, Okay, that's interesting. And then we get nominated and we're like, oh, like that's it, Like we

might actually be doing something. And then you get to the point where it's like, well, is it this going to be that thing where it's just like, oh, well, nominate you guys, because like, you know, we we like, yeah, like we we want people to think we like are almost they are kind of there, and so it was I was just like, I can't I don't know if they're gonna accept this, like I don't know if they

can have this conversation with us. And so many people were telling us like, y'all gonna win, y'all gonna win, You're all gonna win, from even back in January, You're gonna win. And I just couldn't believe it until it happened, man,

Like I just it was just hard. It was. It was really like stressful, just the way of knowing that if this movie wins, what it says to the world, If if the the most prestigious award you can win for film is given to a movie about that was inspired by the death of George Floyd that is about police brutality and not like softly about police protection. And it's like in your face, like making you confront the thing you don't want to talk about, Like that's gonna

be huge, Like that's gonna be game changing. And so it was just the closer you get, you feel the weight of like are we gonna actually do it? Like is it gonna actually happen? Because it's gonna change all of our lives, Like even being nomin it's gonna change

all our lives. But winning is gonna it's gonna be spectacular, like not only are we making history, like no black persons ever won this award, but also like you've invited all of these very black, very pro black people to the conversation in a way that they've never been invited. It's important. This is for both people. I'll go with Van first. How has your life changed since winning Oscar? People from high school and come out through they know you.

Let me hold something, man, you know you got it. You know you know it's like, oh ship man, the price going up? Bro, it ain't going up yet. Let it ruminate for a second. You know. I think a couple of things though. Number one, obviously we have a lot more opportunity needs to tell the next story, which is very important. It's weird um for me, validation from my community and my culture is first, by far is first, you know what I mean, It's first. So the conversation

surrounding two distion strangers, the good and the bad. I'm willing to sit down and have front, front facing conversations with the people from my community, right because their validation means something, because it's them that we're trying to make hold. And the reality is, you don't want to have to make a movie about this, and I want to make a distinction about something because there's a huge conversation surrounding stories featuring black trauma, right and people talking about stories

where black people get brutalized. I want people to pay attention to the end of our movie. At the end of our movie, the last picture of Carter that you see, he's alive. He's not only alive, he has agency. He's emboldened. He's ready to take on the challenge that exists outside of his door. And he's going to be brave about it. He's going to be diligent about it, and he's going to be persistent about it. And he's telling you into the camera that we are going to win, like we're

going to win. It's not gonna be an easy journey, but we're gonna win. And that was purposefully done by Trailon. That's purposefully done to say that there's not enough forces out there that can make our community sit in trauma and perpetuity. We are going to figure this out, or everybody else is going to have to figure something out. But America as it currently exists, you're looking at a generation of people that just refused to live in this we're not going to live in this and if everything

comes apart, then everything comes apart. But it's not gonna be like this forever. And so you're making a film like that, You're you're specifically telling that story and the OSCAR what it means is that you did it to a high degree. It means you executed the filmmaking to a high degree. It means technically, the film looks great, it's written great, it's acting great, it's shot great, and

you hit your thematic target right perfect perfect. The response from your community, it's tells tells you whether or not it's good or not good in that particular point. It has to come for me from the people who can understand the experience and who can parse apart what their emotions feel like. If it's good and authentic to them,

you win. The OSCAR helps you tell the next story, and the next story, hopefully is a heartfelt romantic comedy with two black people on a cruise drinking my ties or high jinks and comedies or black superheroes are all of that opening the door for you to be able to do what you gotta do, because they know you can execute the film in a filmmaking fashion right, I mean similar in our space. I mean obviously our basketball backgrounds, knowing that this this space we're gonna have to come

and talking about sports. But month people, we can do that. You can step into other spaces. We open that door to go whatever direction respective in several different spaces. So it's obviously very similar to what you guys have going on. Trade on. How how's it changed for you? I mean it's it's been drastic, man, Like the amount of like people tell you like, oh, if you're win, like things

are gonna be different. But when you actually experience the I've been on in meetings for the last three weeks, bro, Like every day it's people like do you want to direct this? Do you want to write? Like and not even like like big like big names, big budget where you're like, damn, like three weeks ago, like like y'all didn't even like I wasn't even on your radar for this.

Now you're like bringing me fifty million dollar movies that go like dude, and you're like I could have did it three weeks ago too, But like it's that thing. It's just the way the business works. Were like you have to prove yourself. You gotta prove it. You get a road laid out in front of your people are going to probably let you work for the rest of your life as long as you don't like do something crazy.

You know. It's funny about that too. It's like, you know, you see people win an oscar for like some movie where they play like a brilliant heroin addict genius saxophone players. Yeah, you know what I mean. And then after they win the oscar, their next movie is a movie with them and an animated gorilla. And you think to yourself, like, why are they doing that? And the reason is is because they come at you with all of these ideas

and you go, well, ship exactly like. And that's why there is a degree once you've once you've got yourself into a world, there is a degree of discipline that comes along with it. Everything you get the most temptations. Now, there was definitely like a couple of days ago, actually

we got offered. I can't say what movie it was, but it was It's a really fucking big movie, and I said no to it like pretty quickly because it was one of those things where it's like, oh, this is the trap, this is the thing where like because it was one of those situations where like directors fell out they need a replacement and it's shooting like four months and like can you And it's like if you, uh, if you told me a year ago somebody would offer me like something like this and I would say no

to it. I'm like, hey, no, I'm just saying like and now, like like you said, everything is different, you gotta like calculate all these yeah where it's like, yes, that is a great bag and a great like name projeress, but it ain't like it don't fit. It don't fit right now, it don't fit with what we're trying to do.

It don't fit the long term and you can't just like if you fall into it, like it could be a year or two from now, you ain't like doing nothing like but it's could you guys have a vision like you said, you're not just fine like you haven't you know, you have your plan. Your ship is mapped out, and that doesn't fit in the plan no matter how big or what the money is. If it doesn't fit, it doesn't fit. Who are some of your influences in

the film business that inspired you? Wow, Well, obviously Spike Lee. I think the finest movie, my favorite movie, the greatest achievement in black film ever, The greatest, one of the greatest achievements in film ever is Mobile of Blues, perfect film. Um uh, Spike Lee, Stanley Kuber, Bill Duke. From a filmmaking standpoint, obviously you love guys like Stephen pi Spielberg, Ryan Coogler. I think to me, it's monster to me. I think Ryan Coogler right now is the best director

work in ease. Just got a genius way of pacing story. Like when you think about Black Panther right and you know that Ryan Coogler's you know from Oakland, when you think about what was done in the filmmaking there to take that story with all of those powers, with all of that scale, with all of that mythology going back to the sixties, and that character and ground that film in Oakland and the struggle of worldwide blackness, think about it, that struggle that has to do with the black American

struggle as juxtaposed to an international identification and identity of blackness. The fight is really between The take away in that movie is the fight is really between us about how much we want to help us about our duty and responsibility to us, and everything that comes from outside of that is just distractions. Like in that movie Claw and the CIA and all of these are they're they're just distractions to the real which is between different versions and

visions of blackness. He did that with a superhero movie. That's a genius action, right, dude, that's amazing work. But you know, I'm a film geek. So the Stanley Kubricks of the world, the Martin Score says, He's of the world,

like all of those guys. So you just have to have a while, you have to have a palette, you know what I mean of influences, Yeah, I mean I for me, it's like obviously like so many of the names he said, but directly like I'm inspired by Barry Jenkins so much and the way that he moves the camera and the way that he he can, you know, just take something. He can he can make anything beautiful in a way that I just like, I want to

just study it all the time. But like Alfonso Corone is another big one for me, Like his his ability to like bring you into a story and almost make you forget that like you're a part of it. Is it's something that I admire. Um one car why it's just like one of the most beautiful filmmakers, like uh

in the world. And I try to like look at what makes so many of the grades great and then I try to figure out, you know, what element of myself I connect to in that and like how that shapes me as a filmmaker, because that's that thing where like like I started in stand up So every stand up when you're starting out, you're imitating whoever your favorite comic is, Like it's just barn On, Like did you just always start out writing like whoever jokes has sound

like your favorite comic, And over time you do it long enough, you start to find yourself in it. You start to start to figure out you know who you are, what your voice sounds like. And it's why we all have influences. Why everybody was trying to like fade away, like like Mike can do all this thing until you figure out you know what you're game, you yeah, like

until you find yourself. I find myself doing it as a filmmaker and a writer, where you know, I spent the early part of my career writing for other people, writing for other showrunners, writing for other actors and things like that, and then over time, within that you start to figure out who you are and what elements of this is, like, oh, this is just the show, but this part of the script is actually like me, it's

like what I feel, what I want to do. And John Singleton is another one like I just like the way, like the way he can tell the story is. I mean, it's it's gonna be missed, It's gonna to the point, John, and so you like that's kind of where I found my influence and and figuring out, you know, how I want to tell stories visually, Yeah, man, John was resting

peace johns. I got a chance to go to the there we there or Nick might have been there, John Singleton when he when when they played Poetic Justice the year anniversary, NICKI was there right, I went went you right, that ship was dope. Man. Just rewatch the film and then hear the whole the stories about who was supposed to play Wood and all the drama that and then it's cold but and fun. Fact when I first started thinking of this shows, Van was our third person get

out of his TMZ contract. But like when I first started this show, I was like Jack me, and he was like, who's our third person, who's our start person. Let's meet Viola. Let's chop it up, Viola, go to Vola, have a great time. I'm like, Yo, this is gonna work. Man. Sold you needed a year. I needed a year. They wouldn't let me out. And you know something about that is once again, the show is better without me. It

is like the show is better without me. The reality is that, like everything, people get so caught up in the opportunities that they missed and the things that didn't happen. You just gotta know that whatever is out there for you, man, you're gonna get it. Yeah. Yeah, it would be good to have your around because you know, I call you in text sometimes and actually opinion on stuff, so that the like we have just these random conversations or we're just bounce some off the wall and go add it

for like thirty minutes. Somebody I'm late. I gotta get my kids up. Man. I'm a I'm a father and an activist and a coach, but not what y'all been able to do. And it's this is another thing. That's why one of the most mystifying things in the world to me is Hayden. I don't understand. I really don't get Hayden. I wish I could, like, I wish I actually knew a hater so they could explain to me, Hayden, because I see the show and automatically the show is

a hit. Right, Automatically the show is a hit. And I'm looking at my guys when change narratives and dynamics and perspectives, and I'm so filled up with joy for everybody that's winning. I'm trying to figure out what does the hate come in? Like, where does the hate come from? You know? People people say like, uh, well, I say all of the smokers, Like, yeah, man, those are my guys. Actually, I was gonna be in this show all you must really be mad mad about? Right, Yeah? Like you pathetic idiot,

what would you be mad about? So no, man, I'm I'm I'm happy. And y'all had an idea. Once again, y'all had an idea, y'all went out, y'all executed, y'all knowe y'all could do it in the show is now a staple. It's the saying what I want for myself? I want from my brother. Man, what has it been like your journey from where you started to you know, kind of been known as the black guy at TMZ to now where you're at with your production company, red Pill,

and kind of just the way things have involved. Take us on that journey you got you got tired of seeing you pay for take Vann. It all took costs, Okay, Okay. So here's the thing about TMZ that I don't think a lot of people know is I really did not know what teams was when I got there. I really didn't know, you know, my girl being there watching the celebrity news and stuff like that. I never cared about it. I never looked down on it, but I never cared

about it. Right, the thing that I would look at the celebrity news shows, I would be like, hey, they're covering the same five to ten stories on every show. Like me and her would argue because she would going there and she would watch the news, and then she would watch the other one, the ten and she would watch, uh whatever, the extra and all that. I'd be like, Yo, they all talking about the same ship. Brad and the new girl went out on the date. You know what

I mean, It's the same story. And so when I actually got to tm Z. I was I was unemployed and I had just lost my unemployment because I lost my unemployment on accident because I did a commercial, but I didn't know I was doing a commercial I did. I did a razor commercial to where these people told me to come out to Van Eyes and use all these products and then use a razor. And then when I was using a razor, do job jumped out and with you ready for pro prograde fusing challenge or whatever

like that. I'm like, oh, ship and so and so. After I do that, I get paid for it. And so then I go on the unemployment thing and I put down that I did a commercial readjusted my unemployment to seventy five a week. I fuck, now, I gotta get a job. I can't. The government's not gonna pay for me to pay play pick up basketball. First job is teensy tour guy tour gud okay. That's around the city, right, yeah,

around the city. So I was thirty one, and I'm thinking, man, all of these great big dreams I had and I'm a tour guide at thirty one. But I did it because I go back and I asked her about it, and she says, yeah, yeah, yeah, take it. You should take it. She's like, you're gonna be on the television show. But once again, I didn't know what the show was that. I thought it was just like he or anything else. I didn't understand controversy. I didn't get the selacious nature

of the show or anything like that. Also didn't get the culture problems that existed there um until a little while after I was like a television sort of mainstay. I remember I was on TMZ a lot, and I've said this before, and they did a video there. There was a video where they were talking about different rappers and they put up a picture of whis Khalifa and under that it said little by Wow. I remember things

to myself. All Right, people make mistakes. But one of these niggas is six ft five and the other one of them is five nine five. They look completely different. Now, we are the celebrity experts, like, we're the people that are supposed to know the difference. We're the celebrity experts, right, We're the people that are supposed to know. So there's something in there that's either unrepresented or not being represented.

So I felt it, uh, my responsibility if I was going to be on the show to go there and then represent that right, and it was a handful. It was a job that, to be honest with you, I'll never endeavor to do again. I'm not going to be the black voice of reason for anyone ever again. Ever, how heavy was that lift, because, like you said, you not knowing the history. I mean, I'm being in l A so long. You've just always heard and seeing TMZ Like any time anything anti black or black issues came up,

they looked at you every time. Yeah, but not just them, everybody, everybody, Right, So the company looks at me, and then the viewership looks at me, and then our community is looking at you, and then our community the community is looking at me.

So after a while, it becomes a situation to where you almost lobotomize yourself because even if you do have thoughts on a specific issue, I just refused at any point at TMZ really for me to be too critical of anything that will come from the black community, because I didn't feel like I was in a safe space to do that. Like if we're on like one of our platforms, we can say okay he's wilding, Okay, she's wilding Okay, whatever you have to protect us, don't matter

about us, don't matter. Do bring an A K forty seven to Disneyland. I'm like, you don't know what he's been through. Like if you grew up and where he grew up, you bring an A K forty seven to Disneyland too, But man, should need not have the A K forty seven around the kids. Funk that you don't understand next story, you know what I'm saying. And really that's something for Black Americans period. We get pushed into that. We get pushed into it because there's there's sort of

no standard of decency in which we're treated. Everything looks a certain way, so then we we feel like, Okay, well funk it. This is the thing. And so I had so many conversations man, and then this I want to shout out Charlottage and kill the Mike because two

solid brother two solid brothers, right. I want to shout out Charletagne and killer Mike because when something would go wrong, like those will be the guys, of course, Kalika, but those will be the guys that I would talk to about it, and Mike would be like, because I'm like, yo, I'm quitting it's all. I'm done. I'm quit. Mike would be like, no, we need you there, and Charge just never gets it, trying to be like quit for what you really care about? What these people on social media?

He don't give a fun He doesn't care at all, Like why don't quit? What you what you're gonna quit? You quit? Quit for somebody on Twitter who doesn't know your life. You sound bug, call me back when you feel the up. But but but it's a hard situation and for anybody that's gonna do it now, for anybody anywhere that feels like you gotta be the black voice of reason. Hey, I'm not saying that it doesn't have any utility. I'm not saying that it doesn't that it's

not useful. We need that. But be ready, you're gonna show in your life. Oh yeah, no question. That's a lot of stress. I'm not talking. I always wondered that, Broa. People talk a lot a lot about that. But like with you being a voice, like they don't understand like the stuff that comes with it, the death threats and all that type of stuff, because a lot of people don't don't have the guts to speak out. But a lot of people don't like the fact that you have

the guts to speak out. They hate that. They hate that because a lot of people are dying inside. They won't they want to say the things you you know, they want to be as confident, as bold as you. But then again, damn he that compliment. I can't be that. The only thing I can I can do it to reply to that is hate on him, and that that's the only respond you know what I'm saying, And it's

crazy that way. Everybody got a part to play. The last thing I say about this is this Mary and Barry had died in d C and TC and Tims wrote the headline to people they're like and they came at me right, And at first I was I felt very I felt like I got defense if I felt crazy about that. I'm like, well, I didn't write this headline, like I didn't write that. I didn't do that. I'm arguing on the show that the headline was wrong. Why are coming at me? And then I said, that's actually

not good enough. That's not good enough. That's not the way you go about that. You can't do that that way. You can't do that with your people. I had a conversation with one of my homies from the Nation, and we were talking about a story that we might want to do or something that we wanted to do, and I'll never forget he said to me. He said, not listen, we'll do this and if it and we'll put the truth out. But if it goes left, you will be

accountable on you for this. You will be accountable. So if if you stand in that room and they write the headline about Mary Barry, that's you. That's you. You take what comes with that. You either you move on from it or you you you scab up and you scar up to where it doesn't bother you. But it's not it's not that anything that happened at TMZ. It was TMZ and then Van. You were right in the middle of the room. Be as you as you can be.

But remember, as long as you're there, you're fucking there, and you just hope that there's a better there after you leave. What were the positives from that? I mean, like I said, it wasn't all bad. You know, you're not even pertaining it as bad as all. But I'm saying, well, were some positive some perks being in that position. Uh, we'll bit positive was being on TV. Being on TV change your life in l A. Just like you know, ow TMZ didn't make me rich, but being on TV

in l A is just different. Like it's like it's like a little club lay so crazy man, Like you you go somewhere and people everybody's here for one thing. So people think that you must be special if you got it. They don't know that you came off the tour bus, right. They don't know if they would have felt out, if they would have gone to Entertainment Careers dot net for that one time and they might have got that job. They don't know how fortunate it is

to happen, but they think that you've done something. So it allowed me to meet a lot of people that that got me to my next thing. All of these guys here and here that I'm cool with. It's not because of TMZ, but me being who I am on

that show mattered. And also the Kanye moment was incredibly important because the Kanye moment tethered me to my community in a big, loud way that would have been impossible, right they It was really my audition to be a part of the solution, and a lot of people have those auditions and a lot of people go and do those things, but they don't normally get that much fanfare um and more than anything, like being at TMZ around those people that were there, it was a that was

a group of people that I actually my co workers that I fell in love with. I love my coworker. Even the guy accused me of choking was my man, like my dude, and being around I didn't. I didn't choke the man man. I went to put my hands on him and say, yo, bro, don't talk, and then it went left. But I didn't choke him. I never choked anybody, but like I really didn't choke him, like if you watch the video, I really did. I don't know. People people always say that things choke out of the coworkers.

I didn't. But but I grew right like I grew the people in the office. Like the entire time I was there, I grew. I wouldn't wouldn't take it back for anything. Haven't worked there. How excited has it been? Built? In a new your new show highlining part. I've loved being at the Wringer. I think I have the best co host. Rachel Lindsay is a fantastic co host. We have a unique podcast in that it's like a it's real, it's real, and it's a male female perspective. I think

that personally, this is what I think. I think that me and Rachel Lindsay Higher Learning are going to be the Regions and Kathy Lee We're going to be the Regions and Kathy Lee a little different, a little bit more in your face, a little smarter, little sharper. Not I'm not trying to disc Regis and Kelly and Regions, but if the show would be smarter and maybe a little bit more topical. But that's why I see it. Like, the chemistry is great, the show is great, and you

know we're still feeling out. Y'all know that anytime you say something, it's a thousand people online that are looking at to second. But like ship, I'm gonna be honest with you. Rachel has just like made me more unfiltered because she don't give an I've been that, she don't give a funk and she just she's out there and and also bro, she's super intelligent, super intelligent and sharing his fill light with black women. I've done. I've done I think three podcasts now on the Ringer. One I

worked with Jamale Hill. The other one I worked Shout. I worked with Rachel Lindsay Man. Being with black women on a podcast and being a part of of the moment that they have, at the moment that they that they shared, like the things that they think and knowing that you're right there, it's dope that makes you know, I go home. I talked to Kalika about that. I talked to my girl about that. Yo Man, Rachel said this,

Jamal said this. You just want people to feel and be seen, and I'm getting the chance to do that at the ring mm hmm. So Trayvon comedian, actor, writer. Uh some of your credentials A full frontal the Daily Show. When did you kind of feel like was what was the oscar to breakthrough or had you already had you kind of were already on the pace of I mean, I feel like it started with Daily Show because that was like my first TV job, and it was like it was one of the biggest shows on TV at

the time. John, when did you what what years were there? I was there twelve sixteen, so I was Trevor and John and so you know the I started right before Obama got reelected like literally like a week before, and that was my first Like, up until then, I was just doing stand up, stand up, stand up. And then when I got that job, like everything changed in like

TV because it was like a big deal. And then now people were like, oh, you can actually like do this, Like it's the same thing with the oscars, Like you do it. It's like people like, oh, you can actually do it, and so um right, and and then it's like also like I was the only black writer on the show. Uh, like similar to that same experience where like you're dealing with the new show, a topical show, and any type of black any type of ship happened.

It's like all the eyes turned to you, like why they well, how do you feel about Trey bon Martin, how do you feel about blah blah blah, like that kind of thing, and it's super fucking awkward. But that was the beginning of my TV career, Like I started at the highest level in terms of like Late Night because the show happened to that point and one ten dames in a row. So now everybody's looking at you like, oh, so you this is just gonna You're just gonna get

it like this is gonna happen. And funny enough, my first year was their first year losing after years, and it was like we had black people got that as soon as we did, but we got it back two years later. So um, but yeah, that was that was the beginning. And then after that you could pretty much go anywhere like people were trying to poach you all

the time. And and then once I had, you know, John announced he was leaving, and me and Trevor were boys, and I was like the only person he really knew what we were the only I was only friend and he was like kind of had at the show because we would just hang out in my office. Was like he's black, I'm black. Actually just kind of like fall into that that same thing when you like the only

two people anywhere. And so once he got the job, like I was, I had gotten like a couple offers to go places, and I was like, I'm just gonna stay with you and like build this new show kind of thing. And then once uh, I kind of felt like I had run my course there and I've been doing it long enough. Came back to l A and got really into the scripted TV game, and so I did like camping on HBO Black Monday with Done on Showtime, show Time. Everybody Showtime is great. I loved the Showtime

people Man. And then it was just like TV show off the TV show The Lakers, the Lakers drama on HBO. And then it was just like just sitting around like the show. Everybody had either finished the writer's room, everything had been like shut down, shut down. So that's when the movie came. It was like I came up with

the idea for the movie. I saw to Apple with the Edges Elba and and like the very very beginning of the pandemic and me and Simon Kenburgh, so that while that was like happening too, Distant Strangers was kind of happening in between it all, and we sold that movie last August and then it just it was weird because like you were watching the world kind of collapse around you. And then like but professionally, like my life

was just like doing it. Just started doing this and it was such a like strange thing to kind of like balance. Yeah, he had it not to cut you off a similar ship, like we found our group during the pandemic. It came out a lot better than we win it's like, damn, I'm doing well, but you see what the world I said, everything around you is crumbling. Yeah, and you're like, yeah, I'm super blessed to be like

in this position and like doing all this stuff. And it's like it's just crazy that when like everybody's world collapsed and it's collapsing around you, and people are like frontline workers and like uber drivers and all these people are like having to deal with all these issues and you're like, man, so are they gonna buy my movie or like, like the problems are just so different and you're trying to like not like feel like an asshole. It's like then you're just like, but this is just

what I do. It's just me. It's just been what my life has been, this business, and I'm just fortunate that that's what it is. And so once all that started happening, like you just got us to here, man, Like, it was how do you feel like you're experiencing in

your journey? Prepared you for to distance strangers? You know, it was being at Daily Show for as my first job was like like you were talking about stack like stuff just sets you up to be prepared for everything you're supposed to get and that show is so fast paced. You have so much responsibility and you have so little time to get it done. Like that show is four nights a week, is live to tape. Is we started nine am? You have an hour to write your script.

You have twenty minutes to rewrite your script after you get your nose back. You got rehearsal at four o'clock, you got rewrite at five o'clock. The show is on at six. That's every single day, and you have a building full of people who were just like scrambling all

day making that show happen. And it's a testament to why it was so good, because it was like everybody knew their job, everybody was good at their job, and they just did it and you wanted to like work hard for somebody like John because he was so good and such a great leader. And so having that experience for four years, I always say it felt like like

comedy and like TV college. Like it was like I got my four year degree and how to run a TV show, how to run a production, how to lead a group of people in this particular like setting, if you if it came to that, And so once I left, everything else felt low. Yeah, it was like anything like yeah, I'm like, why are we not? Why are we just sitting here? It was like, oh yeah, because it's nothing like I'm used to like go go, go, go go.

And so when stuff does happen, when you're doing something and there is something to be done, you just you just already for it, like Firefighters, Like that's kind of test them to the movie though, the same thing you're saying, how the show was really fast paced. Look at all of the ad living and all that stuff that I had to do to get the show done. All kind of stuff was coming. But experience is the best teacher, bro,

And that's basically what you're saying. I've been through it already, so anything that comes now, I know how to deal with it. That's exactly what it felt like. It was like all those moments you just didn't feel like they couldn't be done, they couldn't be fixed or couldn't be conquered, and it was all because, like working on two of the best lady night TV shows in TV, you just had to do it and you had to learn it. And how people had that resume though, killer that's that's yeah.

We went on show like you said, I mean, he's been doing great work for so long, but now he's getting the recognition because of that, because I've been killing it. Huh Like, yeah, you know, you might just know me now because of this. But I've been doing my things, so obviously that's things. But you're a hooper to Domingus Hills. Where were you there? I was at Domingus. Yeah, that was that Domingus from three so samere had just left.

You missed Jason Thomas, Yeah, I just missed him. Yeah, And then m Thompson was a sucking Mons two sports man. He scared me a death with a quick story. In the eighth grade, we played him and he had to play it on a team called p t I and this nigger was Win Milling slapping the last in eighth grade. I remember I went home and I wrote in my diary in schools like I just seen Jason Thomas this weekend. There's no way I'm going to the NBA. And probably

the next week he probably went through tint. He was like a man in the country too. Man. But you talked to us the Doman guests. Yeah, yeah, that was crazy because like our fresh my freshman year, I think like severe that was your sophomore year, right. We won the national championship that year, and it was like it

was like basketball, it's like stupid championship. Yeah, it was like it was like Tyson's junior year and the team was just like crazy, Like it was crazy being fifteen and going to play basketball in an arena and like people lined up to like get your autograph and you're like, bro, we're the same age, Like this is so crazy and this is pretty social media though, just like they get

to see you when person is different. It was I mean we were like we're touring the country, like we're playing Eddie Curry over like Dwon Wagner and like like uh ce say, and who am I forgetting some here? Um? Just like so many like the biggest names of that like that era of yeah, like he from my area. It was. It was this was high school like and you're playing like future NBA. Also, like everywhere you go, the team is like a nationally ranked like crazy team.

And so that was just like it seems like everywhere I was going, I was being thrown into like the the highest version. Like you're gonna learn real fast. Everywhere you go. You have to learn real fast. And it's been that same way like every time. And then so like after you know, I graduated in two three and I went to Loumbie State, we went to the tournament. I think my senior year was like the year we went to the tournament twelve five game, got beat up

by Tennessee. It wasn't that bad we were, That's what it was. Already going to Tennessee. He might already been going. I think he was, yeah, because the thing was, it wasn't like we played bad. They played amazing. Like we

we led the nation in scoring that year. We average eighty nine points a game, uh that season, and they came out shooting like yes, sixties seventy percent from three, just like was not missing, and like we were making shots, but we were like making layup so like doing it, and they're like three pointer, whatever we do three pointer, And I was like, oh, y'all just like hot, Like there's nothing we could do about this, Like we're not we're not turning the ball over, We're not like like

messing up our plays. It's just like y'all are just bawling and the aready. Nothing we could do about it. And so it was fun man, like to play in the tournament, like if you get a chance, like it's amazing. And so I was happy that, like at every stage I got to like experience at least the thing or wherever the high point of that thing was. So when I graduated, I was like, I was happy. I had

knee surgery. That's why you know that. Yeah, my sophomore year blew out in practice, and so I only played three of my four years because after I did the rehab, he it was so hard, man, and I just didn't want to do it. They take it out, took it out, all of it. Yeah, Yeah, they had to take percent. I tore my this week with the Lakers, and I was out like seven weeks. They took out. So every

once in a while, I have to do this. And so he told me they were going to like what they thought they were going to do when they ended up being yeah, because like he showed me the picture afterwards, and they ain't like nothing in thereship because it's hard to get blood flow in that area to try to

rebuild everything. Yeah, Hooper's story, but just the events around race, racism, social justice, how has that impacted you in the last couple of years and do you see light starting to come out at the end of at the end of the tunnel the term social justice Like for me, we we We're just trying to live, you know what I mean. It's like, I guess there is a very strategic way you have to go about getting what you want in America,

but you don't when you're black, you're initiated. You don't have to decide to get a cause and go This is like about surviving or as I call it, stur thriving. You want to be alive and you want to be well. You know. So the answer to the question is there allied at the end of the tunnel. No, there's not. There's no light. Uh. Things will I'm hopeful that we figure things out. But I just hope people understand that.

Like we talked about so many different things that you know, talk to people and people go, hey, I'm gonna get I'm gonna get a lot of money, I'm gonna give back to your community. That's dope, that's amazing. Everybody should do that. Everybody should should seek to We live in a capitalists in a capitalist society, everybody should seek to get a lot of money and create a lot of jobs and do all of that stuff. I just hope people know that that's not what we're talking about. What

we're talking about is intentional systemic dysfunction. Intentional systemic dysfunction. I want you to look all over the world at places that had systems that were intentional, intentionally unequal. Right, if you look at apartheid in South Africa. In order for South Africa to turn, apartheid has to go, right, it has to go. Obviously, that's different than what we're talking about here, but we're talking about participation in cooperation in the guts of America, in the guts of it,

in the guts of what this country is. And it's participation that is black people we've always had. Like it's it's interesting. There's a god called whiteness is a god complex, right, Like whiteness as it exists is the belief that this was all created by one omnipotent force, and you're lucky to worship that force. That's what white supremacy is. You're lucky to be here. We took you out of Africa right where you were running around with a fucking bone

in your nose. You couldn't read you had no culture, you had no nothing. We came you, We came you over and we taught you how to use a salad for it. And what you should do is for in perpetuity, you and your progeny. You should worship that. Right. That's bullshit. That's bullshit. Number one. What we were and what we are on that continent is completely different than what you said on culture, on family, on laws, on hierarchies, royalty,

rich is, wealth, doctors, scientists, all of that stuff. People figuring out the way the world works over there. So that's bullshit. And then over when when you talk about us coming over here, you didn't do anything alone, Like Franklin said, Brick by brick, the labor that built the country is on a sweat of my ancestors. There's been the only thing that we've ever been the big given license to do in America is be exploited. So systems

built on that. How do you fix them? Well, you can try to fix them by participation in those systems, and some of us will win that way. But the better way to fix them is to reprogram the systems themselves. And that's hard because that means that somebody has to do what nobody wants to do in America is lose. You see what I'm saying, Like, they're cool with us losing because they put us in a position to lose

for a John. So the question then is, all right, I'm what I'm asking you is, I'm asking you not to grease the wills for everybody around you to get an advantage. I'm asking corporations to pay the appropriate tax rate. Right, I'm asking for real participatory action into America what you say you want. And once that happens, we'll get together and will work in our communities and will fix them. But the piece of the pie, it has to be

divvied out equally or with some sort of equity. Now, anytime you start talking about that, any time you start examining, or when you say you want an accounting of America, you want to open up the books. You want to know exactly what you're entitled to as an American citizen.

And I use the word entitled because these are promises that have been made promises, So you're not asking for nothing, You're not working entitled to people talking about people complaining, well, complaining about freedom and the America would be like your lungs complaining about air. It's that simple, Like your lungs are entitled to air. Their function is air. As an American citizen, your function is freedom. They say no, and they have all kinds of reasons that they don't do it.

We don't have environmental freedom, we don't have social freedom, we don't have freedom of movement, we don't have any of that. So we need to overhaul. We need serious people to do it. And it's not philanthropy, is not posting black squares on your Graham, it's not. None of that is dirty, hard, rigorous work by a lot of people who are looking in a lot of fucking mirrors.

And so my hope is that this is the beginning because of the information, like even the people in the past right that they would have us look at right and give us examples of their lives. They always give us examples of people that they shot up, lives that were ended. We don't think about the fact that Malcolm X and Dr King were just men with families. Forget about being these great social social people and people that changed America. They were guys with families. Mothers lost husband,

kids lost dad's no more daddy. Government killed daddy, and then what we look at that and we go, Okay, they left great lives. They sacrificed for what. They didn't sacrifice ship. They were murdered. Like Nancy Pelosi said, George Floyd, I know that somebody close to you stack sacrifice his life or whatever. George Floyd didn't choose to die at all. So stop acting like there's something virtue was in black death.

So what I'm saying is all of these things have to change, Like all of these ideas have got to change, and in order to change, and we gotta face them. And so I'm hopeful that we can start to face them. And I think that there that there's so much information in there. So and by the way, everybody's the last thing I wanna say about this, guys on I know I'm drawing on. Stop looking across the other side of things and picking apart what it is your brother or

your sister's doing. Do your part, Like, stop arguing whether or not no name is right, or whether or not Mike killer Mike is right, Like, do your part. Jump in there right. If you are a black capitalist, tell me how we're gonna win. If you are a socialist or Marxist. Tell me how we're gonna win. Get the information out to the people and let them decide what's the best way to fix America. But stop, we have

to look. I do it too. Sometimes. I went on the whole rant about van Jones, the whole rant on my podcast about Van Jones. You know what I did after. I know how you feel, But you know what I did after I picked up the phone. I called Van Jones. I apologize to him. And the reason why I apologize to him, it's because I don't. I don't agree with a lot of the ways that Van Jones like. I don't. I don't. I don't agree with a lot of the

ways of vantages. That's not real. If you're gonna agree with everything somebody say, that's not what the reality is. There are people who are incarcerated who are home with their families because of the work that he has been doing. I'm not gonna hang out with trumping them. I'm not going up there to sign no bills. I'm not doing anything. While I might go up there to sign a bill, but I'm not gonna go I'm not doing all of that. But that's his thing. It doesn't matter what I think

of it. I can't stand in a way of progress. So whatever conversations, whatever, whatever we have, let's talk about them to each other. And that's what I'm saying, and I'm hopeful that those things can start. I try to simplify for a lot of people. Man, just imagine you're starting the business and you hire thirty employees, the third employees build your business to a billion dollar business. But then you treat them like ship. They're gonna eventually turn

on you. And that's what that's this world, that's that's the that's the United States. You tell then you tell them they had nothing to do exactly. So that's this is what we're going through right now. You can't continue to expect the people that built this place to live the right way, or to overlook what's been done in them and continue to treat them like ship. And they're not rebel on you. You know what I'm saying. We're

waking up now. It's not just us then, you know, like I said, what happened if Georgie put me in this position and I don't even consider myself for actives, I'm going I'm just doing right by the community. I don't want to be putting that position because I'm not that because I know people that go by that Yeah, I mean neither. You know what I'm saying. They go by that title. They've done great work, so I don't even I don't even want to diminish their work and

put myself as an activist. But at the same time, we all have a part to play, and if you out there doing your part, you don't have time to word about what somebody else is not doing, that they're doing it right or not. We all have a part of player. We all have the same goal, and that's to get treated like human beings and not like animals and that and when people think like that, man, it's easier for us to get there. But everybody is always worry about what somebody else is doing. And then again,

I'm gonna finish on this. Everybody has their religion who they pray to. When you get ready to go and you're going to your judgment day, you're not getting judged about what somebody else did. It's about what you did on this earth and the good you did, So worry about what you do. Live righteous and I think we get there, you know what I'm saying. But we but we have to worry about what we can do ourselves

and not what somebody else is doing. But I think also too, I mean, any change we fight for now, however part whatever role we play, we probably won't really see it. You always say that as we have to understand, like what we're doing now is our kids are gonna see and my sons are gonna see. If you guys have children, have children soon, your kids are gonna see it. So it's also fighting something for you know, you really may never get a piece of you don't really never

get the benefit from. And are you okay with that? You know? But I think obviously once you become even if you don't have children, but I know, like once I became a father, like that outlook changed, like damn, I'm doing all this. I'm not gonna feel it. But now, no, I'm doing all this now because my kids are gonna feel it, and their kids are gonna feel it, and

the next generation needs to see it. So I definitely, I just feel encouraged from a standpoint of you know, for four hundred plus years it's been one way, and I think for the first time, unfortunately through George Floyd being killed they're listening that some of them may have pretended they're listening, but enough people are listening now, So what is our strategic plan moving forward? Like, we can't continue to fight, kill and do all this ship and

think we're gonna overtake it. We gotta overtake it with our minds, you know, and our unity. And I see some of that. Obviously, we take a couple of steps forward and then take a few steps back. But I think overall we're starting to understand, like together, we're not the minority. Because of the skin color. They try to call us the minority to keep us in our place, but we're actually the majority. And the only thing I want. It's so simple. It's like people come to me, like

what do you want? Right, And we're all successful guys, we're sitting up there and we're talking about what's wrong with the country. A lot of people look at that, and they go, hey, look, you got millions of dollars up here, a thousand dollars over here in Van and and and and and they and they say, and they say, like, you know what, this is what I want. You know what I want safe black people. If I just want safe, safe means environmentally safe safe means economically safe, do you know,

Like it's like we talked about stress and trauma. I just think about like one time my dad was real quick. One time my dad like he saw my um or my uncle Mark passed away. He was on drugs for you know, most of his life, and he had gone another pin and stuff like that. I'm seeing in the truck my dad and my dad hangs with the phone. He goes, man Mark back on that ship, and he gives himself a split second to be sad about the

fact that his brother was back on drugs. A split sector and he looks at me and he goes, nigger, if I ever catch you fucking with drugs, I never forget he cut the cough. I hadn't done nothing. You know what I'm saying, Like, cut the cough. If I ever catch you fucking with drugs, I will kill you myself. He looks at me, like, look at me. Don't you bring that ship in my house. Don't you funk with nobody that's sucking with that, Then I'll hurt you. He's scared.

He's scared. He lives in the community where his son has to deal with that. He's upset. He's scared. He saw what happened to his brother, doesn't want to happen to me. Now he's got to make now, he's got to put fear in me. This this we're not safe. We don't feel safe, and we need to build more apparatus in America where we feel safe so we can live out our lives. That's all I'm saying, Safe Black people.

Thoughts on you being a foremor athlete, obviously athlete role in continuing to amplify these messages that are our community are coming up with, the activist are coming up with, and how important that is. Jack and I had a disagreement when the NBA was going into the bubble. He thought, and we like, we really like completely opposite, different size, how we thought, but we talked and understood the pros and cons of both sides. But he thought that people

shouldn't play. We should continue to march, fight, bring awareness. I flipped it, thinking like if we do play the all, you know, our voices are going to be amplified with that NBA logo behind us, Like you'll be able to hear Lebron or hear CP, but you won't be able to hear our whole message. Our whole message travels around the world when that logo is behind it. So we we went back and forth with you know, whether guys should play or not, but they played. I thought they

put the message out. How important you think not only basketball but athletes and other entertainers, Uh, how important is for them to continue to push the needle and make people uncomfortable. I think it's It's of the things I think is so important because athletes are some of the most famous people on the planet, and like there, sports is one of those things where people leave their their party lines at the door when you show up to the arena. You're a Lakers fan. You're not a Republican

Lakers fan or a Democratic Lakers fan. You're a Lakers fan. And that's the bulls and funk the Bulls. The Lakers

better win this game. And so when you're cheering on and supporting these athletes across any sport, I think among from my experience, there is a fear of not having the knowledge of the ability to speak like the people you see on TV when you talk about an issue, to be able to support it or to voice how you feel to or you have to be heard, and I think that causes a lot of athletes to just say nothing or to just kind of hide in the shadows and like let Lebron and let Chris and let

Magan Rapino on it all. Like when you step out there, they're gonna listen to every word and look down. So when you do take that leap of faith, it's scary. It is, and I totally get because you're like, I got a brand, I got millions of dollars to protect my family. It totally makes sense. What I what I think we can get to is a place where it's a more cohesive voice, where you don't have to feel isolated.

And I got to know all the ins and outs of the George Floyd Act to be able to talk about why I support elements of it, or why I support this or why I support that, and let it just like let them, let them do it for you. But I think it's, like you're saying, so many millions of people are listening and paying attention just seeing black lives matter on the court every game is making you face it. If you're a fan who's been trying to

avoid it, you can't there. It is and you have to be confronted with it, and if if more and more athletes, if more and more organizations with some sport, the athletes in using their voice to to talk about the things that are plaguing their community. Because you have an NBA that's like black. You have the NFL it's

like seventies something for saying black. How can you as an organization look at the fact that your entire business is built on their backs, on their ability to perform, and you ignore the things that they take home every day because they think they're doing you a favor by allowing you to play. Exactly, they don't. They don't understand that you worked hard your whole life. It's to give

from God that you have. They didn't do nothing. They're giving your opportunity that you take an advantage of it. So they that's how they think though they think they've given you something that you didn't work for. But I think that's what we I mean, we need more empathy and understanding at my point of view, because you can't expect uh middle class, upper class white men to ever understand our struggle because they will never have to go

to us. But we're asking you is to kind of step outside of your life and and not even walk them out on are you just put see if the motherfucker's fit. I have an understanding of our day to day battles, So why would they do that? You got you got black people that see people struggling in their own neighborhood and they get out and make it and don't even think to go. You know, they're in that

position with these people, you know what I'm saying. So how can you expect another race to care about our issues? And we don't even care about our own people. So both of y'all are right in my opinion, And and you know this, that's a very you're not supposed to say on the podcast, fuck that ship, No, But both of y'all all right, So either way it works, but it just you have to be committed to it. Now

what you just said is very very very key. It's like what you what you said is people sometimes make out the the the projects, whatever, they don't give back and stuff like that. It's actually not even in our nature, like that's learned. Like we're cooperative, right, But if you get so, we have to make a decision as a community whether or not we're actually a community or we're

just a bunch of people that you know what I'm saying. So, so like like we were like we have to make a decision about whether or not we're a community or we're just like a bunch of people that survived some ship. Because right now, if we all, if we all like on a plane, right, we're on a plane, we cruise into our altitude, right, we're going to like I don't know, can'coon whatever, We're going someplace like we're all gonna go

he bro, look at this movie. When I'm gonna watch this movie, and I'm gonna watch the movie go, hey man, I can't wait till we get there. When we get there, we're gonna be like, we're gonna coordinate. We're all gonna work together. If the plane goes down, Me, tray Vaughne, and Matt are going to be like, let's eat Jack. If the plane goes down, we're gonna start looking around and being like, okay, who can we eat Jack? Can't swim so right, right, So we because now all primary

focus is surviving something. So it's like fucking I gotta stay warm, I gotta stay fed, and not everybody can do it, right, not everybody can stay warm and stay fed. Everybody can't. So then we start looking for the weak person who can't, and then we get them out of there and we take what it is that they got, And that's just not community. That's not what the community is.

The community is seeing somebody who may be struggling or who may need to look at helping them because of a belief inherently and a top belief that they're going to add something when they get to where you are. So in terms of your point, that's what we have to decide, whether or not we're a community, or whether or not we're just a bunch of people that survived some ship because survives gonna go their own way. As far as what you guys were talking about in the bubble,

I really didn't like. For me. It's like Kyrie Irvin is my favorite basketball player on the planet right, He's my favorite basketball player because I think he's doing something invaluable. He's giving context and perspective to this. He is playing basketball and basketball has provided him, uh a great life and a platform. Is NBA basketball as important as what's

going on in the Middle East? Now, It's just not you have to be a moron to think that when kids, when kids are dying, right, So when he when you put a mic in his face and he goes, hey, yeah, basketball is cool, but I want to talk about what's going on in Kenosha, Wisconsin. We we gotta have that. And the rub is that we can't have that if

they're not playing, you know what I mean. But then if they don't play, that would be a huge, huge, huge, big thing too, because that would be working on people's pockets so bad. So I think both people are right. But I think one thing that we have to do to Trayvon's point is we just have to know what we're saying. I see so many people and I see stephen A. Smith, uh, and I love stephen A. Smith. I see s A. Smith being critical of Kyrie and being critical of like what he's doing and how he's

comporting himself. I think that balance is needed. I think that, to be honest with you, if athletes would have been like this in the nineties or in the eighties, we might be better off right now. And I'm not I'm not coming at those guys. I'm just saying, yeah, it's ship going on. I know the dude could put the ball in the hole. But what else you got for us? I personally like like making white people uncomfortable. I think they actually I think they think better and on their feet.

I think we're doing a disservice to white people by keeping them comfortable because they're not gonna do it right, and now we're gonna have to come at them. The best thing we can do for white america's continuously made them uncomfortable, and then we'll all get to a place where maybe we could all be a little bit more. I mean, it's crazy you brought up Kyrie because I was someone who was opinionated on this thing, because it didn't seem like when he first came with the idea

that he had a plan. To me, I wanted to have a plan. This is another thing. He and I went out ye talk every day, and it was it was because it's just like, you know, you have that platform with you're poky, You're not gonna play. What's the plan? Not playing is not solving anything, like you said, You're just you're making people mad because games are, but like what you're planing. And then once I kind of figured out what his play or hearing what his plan and

seeing that he really had a plan. I had to take a step back and ad I was wrong, because like to me, I think, like I said, our strength is our platform, Our strength is our voice. Our strength is our ability to connect dots, our strength of our ability to get our voice around the world. So okay, if you're just gonna set out, that's you're wasting all. But he was doing more than just what at this What if he didn't have a plan. What if he just said a black man got shot today, I don't

feel like shooting the basketball. I would understand that. But to me, it's it's not like that's your that's your individual choice and that's what you want to do, you know what I mean. But to criticize other people that want to go move forward and go ahead and play, I'm not with But if you do like I said and find out that he did have a plan, like I had to take a step back and it admit I was wrong and have extended a hand and and

and sitting down and having a conversation. But I completely agree like the way he handles stuff now And to me, I mean, we're transitioning into the basketball conversation part of the interview right now, I think Kyrie is the best player right now he's ever been because he's so clear on who he is as a player on and off the court, supercarm and he's so at peace with who he is on and off the court, and not a

motherfucker can't disturb that. And then usually when you're at peace, that's when you're at your best and everything you're putting your first you know, you're putting your your foot first. Two. So I love what he's doing. I definitely love that. Look at this season he had though the sixth player, seventh player. Yeah, so it's and fast after fast in the month. M I don't understand his game. It's incredible. He just got told so much in his bag. You can't you don't know what it's not even a but

it's not a bag. I think it's I think it's disrespectful the call. What Kylie ever has he got like you know, like them a little Infinity symbols forever whatever he wants. Yeah, so my man, yeah, my rolling, right, my man Rolling. He works with he works with Kyrie, And he told me one time because like I'm trying to get my game back right for the adult men's leads, he went through. He not too long ago. If y'all don't know, he went back to some old footage. He

was a little heavier and he showed itself. Duncan, that was a while back then. I don't know if you're gonna get back to that. Let's say. Here's the thing, though, it's not about Duncan anymore. The player in the NBA that has set me free, Luca, I can do that, Bro, I'm telling you, Bro, I can I can do that. Bro, that likely six to seven. But I'm in the I'm in the men's league. Though, in the men's league, I'm yoking. Okay, alright,

I'm saying. So that's what I'm saying. Like I look at Yokis and I'm like, sometimes, Bro, Yoki is just crazy, Bro, like this nig is not fast. Like and I'm looking at Yokas, I'm like, Yo, I can do that, and I hear I hear IRV and be like, Bro, I just sent him Yoki clips and stuff like this, and be like van stop, I'm actually working with a real

NBA player. I can do But he told me, he said, Kyrie, and it's something that I even can't because people think they know about basketball, but they really don't know anything about basketball. A lot of people it's like Kyrie really just he's not even setting you up. He's just really reacting to whatever the whole game, whatever it is you do. He's going at full speed, just reacting and you don't even look right. I can't think of anybody that's been that.

Maybe Steph has been that skilled. Steff is pretty like. I can't think of anybody that's skilled with him and one thing with them their basketball. I Q was through the rule. So it's mine, bro, Like this time, name is the most drop on this show. No I can play. We brought term on turn got some left person not a celebrity. Thoughts on the playoffs Laker fans and Nets fans, who you guys have? What are you interested in this? Uh seesons playoffs? Man, it's hard not to ride from

my team. It's I just want the Lakers to play well. That's on your team that you on the chance um maddeling injury coming into the playoffs. I'm not getting my hopes that man. As as it's been bad, just know it's got the two players that hurt uh Tsunami, Hurricane. Anything can happen. They still got a chance. Yeah. Yeah, I mean it's one of those things where, like you you, you can't count out Bron Like it's hard to ever

kind of them out. I mean I've I've you know, every we've all watched him play for the last like ten years like a monster and just defy so many odds and come back in three one and do all the things that like you just you just you can't count them out. But I mean, father time, man, you can't. It's I mean, I don't gotta tell y'all like it's it's when you play that high level long enough, eventually your body is like enough in his prime, his whole career,

which is insane. Yeah, And so I mean, I'm hoping we're not witnessing that, like him start to creep over that thing just yet. But you know, we all know it's coming. Holly Jane's wife said, he's setting it up. I'm hurt. I beat Steph And when he's setting up the home he's doing. I thought about that too. I

was like, I wonder if he's just like bro. I wouldn't doubt he planned the injury game and he don't come back and just like he was catching lives and doing his old ship he was doing when he was nineteen. So Bron, is he gonna be straight? What about you? Man? Who are you? Who are you riding with? And what are you looking forward to in these playoffs? I think

the Lakers. The Lakers are fine. Um. I don't think going on the road to win it's gonna be as big a deal this time because the arenas aren't full. So I think the Lakers are fine. I think, uh, it's really the Lakers aren't so much. The question, I think the question for me is what really do these other teams have? Is Phoenix legit? Is you tall legit? All the Cooper's legit? Like all these teams when they when push comes to shove, are they really ready to

make deep playoff runs? You got to realize when the teams right now they're looking at the wounded Lakers and they got blood dripping right here to get them. Yeah, I'm waiting. I do think though, have to have the Lakers as an eight or seven and they would be

favorite and the favorite. That'd be crazy. And imagine them coming from a seven or eight seed to me in the Western Conference and m CPS, my guy there the two seed, but I wouldn't be surprised if there was a one eight or to seven upset in the playoffs this year. I don't think at the top from a conspirac standpoint, can really handle. You know, the meat of the pack has been there, at the top of the pack hasn't really been there. So I wouldn't be surprised.

In the Eastern Conference, you guys like you guys like over there, the the Wizards have been interesting, like you know they I think they finished the season like pretty strong. Well, I mean the sixers is sixers and nets nets. To me, Milwaukee is the sleeper to me in the Eastern because they've flown under the radar. They've always been the one seed with you know, and I always last couple of years and having achieved that, but now they've been under

the radar working on different lineups. Johannice is the months of Jannice can be that regular season guy in the playoffs, Holiday and twice. So this is a thing for me. Like in the East, obviously, if Brooklyn is healthy, Brooklyn is the favorite, right, but the East has some really interesting wild cards, like for example, Miami has the experience right Miami has the experience. Miami has guys who have

been there. They just made a run. Yo. The Bucks have a kind of weird favorable matchup with the Nets. The Bucks can defend with the Nets and I'll scoring and I'll score them. So the Bucks, the Bucks, they don't have it not a favorable match up, but it's a weirdly good matchup for him, Holiday can be effective and slowing down, Kyrie, you know you can use Jannis

a little bit on durant Um. I am not saying anybody's gonna stop those guys, but it looks like like on his face that they may be be able to compete with them, you know, in a series. For me, the interesting thing is how good is Joel E and B? M hm, Like, how good is Joel? And I know, I know he is a motherfucker, But like, is he is Joel E and B right now? Shock in ninety five or is he Shock in two thousand one? You know what I mean? Is he is he ready to

take over? Shock has always been a dominant force, but at one point it was a fucking joke. It was a joke. Is Joel and be ready to take completely over? Because if he is really ready to be that guy. He's that guy down then like you you then then they're dangerous too. It's just hard to pick against. Oh, we haven't even mentioned my favorite team in the whole league.

Now my favorite team in the whole league to me, the guy who was the league m v P like, I like, I love watching their next play man stop. Julius Randall is the I love watching the Knicks. I don't understanding what you originally from. I'm from Louisiana, bat Rouge, and how you get to have been a Laker fan because we lived out here for a couple of years, like a year and a half. I remember my dad had this contract and the guy they couldn't let my dad.

I've had to ask you that they couldn't. Like seriously, my dad was a semi finish out here and he had this contract with this guy and the guy was like, look, I can't meet that number. But my brother just gave me some Laker tacks and my dad's like the game and we go see the Laker game. I'm looking around this bitch, I'm like I'm sitting there. I'm like, yo, is that our senior hall? And my dad was like yeah, yeah,

famous people come to these games. I'm like, Yo, this ship is a amazing why would you be And we didn't have a team. So I've been on the Lakers, man, I don't funk that people always do that to me. I suffered with the Lakers through the down three era. I suffered. I suffer through the Lakers. I was the Robert Sackray era when we when we like had like fucking you know, D'Angelo Russell was on. Yeah, I was like, shout out D'Angelo Russell. I'm not but you know that

whole like I was with them. So yeah, I'm I'm a Laker fan, but the Knicks. But I love watching the Rows do his thing, bro, I love watching I love watching these guys and they play so in spot much. You don't speke much for the Knicks in the playoffs. I don't spec gonna come out of the East, but they're not gonna come out there. It might be in the taining to watch and play a couple of games, but you know, let's slow down now. Shout out to

coach TIBs though great turnaround, quick hitters man. First thing to come to mind. And you guys are collaboring on some of these answers. So together your top five artists music? Music, Oh shit, just in any genre? Uh Rihanna, Hove, Drake, fred o'bang, Okay, Barrouge, Louisiana, look at it by time go home, fred o'bang, thank you for going home. Um, Tam and Paula. Who Tam and Paula? You only y'all listen to Tam and Paula. I'm not familiar. I'm not familiar.

I listened to listen to Tam Pola in your life, Broo you got, I'm gonna go. Kendrick Cole, Drake, Frank and Ja Okay. Top fives more most impactful films traightmon impact for films um in no particular order. I'm gonna say, uh, do the right thing, Boys in the Hood, The Godfather, Moonlight, um and uh oh God, what's the first fifth one? Um? And to this and Strangers. Yes, if you ever do a black version of Godfather, I'm getting into the business Matt walking me in so I will be perfect for

that movie. Man. If you just sit at any game court side in NBA history, what game would it be? Oh? Ship the Pointer? Yeah, Toronto. I don't give a fuck if we well know if how good we work as we did win the game man to watch that great cook like that and the narrative like the we were down, Kobe did what he had to do to win. So that would be the one that that There were games that like obviously see you know, bigger games and stuff

like that. But to watch him do that, you could be in any movie set ever to see how it unfolded. What movie would it be? Thank you, matt Um. Yeah, there's two movies in my head and I'm having a hard time picking one because it would either have to be Do the Right Thing or The Guy Father too. Second one, man would be Reservoir Dogs. That would be a good one. You know. You know it's funny you said that was just like a movie. No, it's because

I watched Reservoir Dogs recently. And you know, Lawrence bend is one of our producers. Shout out to Lawrence and I and I and I text him about this and I'm always very blunt about it with him. That movie Don't hold up, Man, don't hold ups, don't hold up. You can't predict what's gonna happen. Look, man, there is so many absolutely unnecessary niggas and reservoir dogs. It is unwatchable.

What's Who's Go watch the first minutes, Go watch the first twenty minutes the reservod dolls today, and tell me after you watch it that you're not going You can't pick out five niggas that don't need to be in the script, and any nigga that's not sad by nigga in the movie not supposed to be in the script? What you mean? That's really just don't it just it don't hold up to me, man, It don't hold up

to me. But and I say that as a person who loved that movie and hadn't watched it for in a long time, and like last month I put it on. Go damn, man, this just feels like gratuitous in a way that I'm not really sure about it anymore. And but no man shout out then five dinner guests dead or alives. Okay, you know this is gonna be This's gonna be all the place tough. So it's like, uh so,

uh Ella Baker Trump fans, who was Ella Baker? Ella Baker is one of the most not talked about people in black his stores because she's a black woman, that was very vital in the founding of Snick and was like a mentor to John Lewis and Stoken Carmichael and guys like that. She's just like amazing. So I hope to bring her story out to the masses one day. So I would say Ellen Baker. Damn, it's a tough question. Marvin Gaye. I think Marvin gay had like an incredible life.

Barack Obama, you know, I want to meet Barack Obama. I've never met Barack Obama before. Uh, Stanley Kubrick. And probably James Baldwin. Probably James Baldwin. Interesting, Yeah, probably James bald h I would definitely say Baldwin. He's on my shirt right now. That's like like one of my one of my gods. Obama, Um, for sure. Malcolm, Yeah, my favorite.

His birthday yesterday, Malcolm and Martin. You know why, because like that would be interesting conversation just to like contextualize that a little from a little alcohol and see what happened. And then there's just like really to get Martin too drunk work, and then I think like maybe to really like like mix it up. I throw a hove in there, Okay, just because I just imagine just cut fucking crazy. That would be there's questions for both of y'all. Who do

y'all want to see on this show. I want to see y'll rapp it Obama, man, that would be dopeest luck to that's I want to I want to see that. That would be like the Shaun King episode. Me. I probably wouldn't say much as to be sitting there listening. I gotta smoke, though, I'm sure he did. You just smoke squaws. Yeah, he's just like used to smoke trees. I gotta smoke. I want to just see he got them purple lips showtime he got I know what smoking lips look like. Not at at ten times, but not

at times. I can tell you I'll smoke of Byes lips, but nine purple. That's when I knew Jack. I traded to the Warriors. I looked at you, I knew he smoked. I was like, we're gonna get along just fine. And look at us now years later anyway, man, fellas, we appreciate your time. Thank you man, Congratulations on the Oscar and all the success and hopefully it opens plenty of doors for you guys and your team. Question for it's

what basketball question. If the Warriors get in as a A C right in a seven game series between this these A C Warriors and that we believe Warriors, if they got Clay and all them, I don't know this this team right now, this team right now, Yeah, we got him. We might be able to get there. No Clay, No, Katie, we got him. A good question. If they ain't got Clay, we the show got him. So no, I'm talking about

this eight ceed Warrior. We got them versus the a C. We believe we would trap the step everywhere and then we would just be able to control everybody we got by five people, we can throw us Steff, you're playing in this era now, Yeah we're good. Okay, we step kind of basketball though we shot a bunch of three we started that. All right. That's a great question. Just still they just step. You don't know what Steph gonna do.

We gotta when you had Clay to the mix. So yeah, I wouldn't get we ain't got a chance of you and Clay don't. We don't want to go to the game. Had hurt with this. This team would just I like our chance. They got some young sters now that yeah, I'm a fan. I'm talk about this a c right here. No wine, but I know it's not eighth verse eight, eight versus eight. No wines. Gotta get chance. Nobody got a good chance. Okay, I like that. Good question. Well that's a wrap. All the Smoke Trade one Free Van

Leathan Oscar Award winners. Congrats again, fellas. You can catch us on Showtime Basketball, YouTube and the Heart platform Black Effects. We'll see you all next week. This is all a Smoke, a production of The Black Effect and our Heart Radio in partnership with Showtime