Sheryl Swoopes | Ep 71 | ALL THE SMOKE Full Episode | SHOWTIME Basketball

still ugly out there. It's not as ugly as it was the other day, but sun coming out a little bit, but still cool. You got a little bit of hope. We got a special guest tonight, very excited. Um, a legend in her space. It's an honor to have her tonight. Welcome to the show, Cheryl swoops, Cheryl, how are you doing? I'm doing great? Like it's such an honor for me to be here with you too, because I hear y'all get down on this show. Look at my smile, Shayl.

I'm happy. I'm so happy to see you. I still got a bone to pick with you, though this is the place to pick it. Go ahead and pick that ship. It's not that big to do. But it is like like you have my number, but you have to call my brother to get me to come on the show or actually let me. I'm actually your brother reached out to me and we have been talking and it didn't

have nothing to do with you. Actually we were talking about something else and we talked about Then he came back and saying, hey, bro, when we gonna get sharer on the show? I said, you know what, We're gonna make it happen. Well, Matt, you and I can just have a conversation and how about that. But I appreciate you guys allowing me to be in your space for a little bit. We appreciate it. Obviously, very very well decorated.

M v P four time champ Olympian. The accolades. Go on, um, tell me tell us one thing you took from whether it be good or bad. Damn um. The life is too short, absolutely, I just you know, it's hard to just pick one thing. But was a hell of a year I think for everybody, And if I had to pick one, I would say that life is too short, so embrace every moment. Embrace spending time with friends and family and loved ones, because you never know when you're

gonna get that opportunity again. Absolutely. We're just a little over a year since Kobe passed, and one of his favorite quotes that I love is he said, we all make the mistake of thinking we have more time. No, you got to be in the moment and enjoy it. Um, how is coaching college basketball? Because that's what you're currently doing. How difficult has has been during the pandemic. Well, so, actually I'm not coaching. No. I was a head coach for three years in an assistant in my alma made

for a year. What I would tell you is I found out quickly that that's not my space. I love the game. Um. I love being a part of the game. I love what the game's done for me. But kids today are different just the I mean, their mentality, their work ethic. They're so entitled and like you can't seriously like you can't coach them. And I just decided that wasn't the space for me. I am currently, um actually

working for Nike, So I'm super excited about that. That's awesome. Well, we're gonna send our shoes sides as soon as the interviews over anyway, And if y'all don't have the hook up already, okay, Jack Jack Jack Jack has a plug. But it's funny you say that because I coached, you know, I jumped in after I retired in seventeen, and I

actually had a few NBA opportunities. Obviously would I have had to start at the bottom, but I I passed on that too, because to me, there was there is a disconnect between the way even we came up and the way we approached the game and the way we look at the game and the way um, you know, these younger athletes do. Now I do coach my my twelve year old twins. They're au team. So I got them early enough to kind of put some kind of structure and discipline. But you know, I've seen these high

and there's no knock on them. It's just this what the world is these days. But there is a definitely a sense of entitlement and privilege, and you know, few and far between actually have to put the hard work in it takes to to get to that next level. They expected to be given to him. Well, and you're right, like it's not or not but I will say this, first of all, how is it coaching your boys? I

love it. I have a great connection, you know. And it's funny too, because Jack has a similar situation where he has a kid, but he found that he's better off just me and the dad in the support system. And I actually liked being in the trenches with my kids and teaching them and their friends. But Matt, you know what I found is it's different with boys and girls.

For whatever reason, I grew up, I played for male coaches, I played for female coaches, and I was the type of player that it didn't really matter if it was a male or female. Like I wanted you if I wasn't doing my part, I needed to be coached hard. I wanted to be coached hard. I didn't mind you yelling at me. You know today I say I can't coach today because you can't. You can't coach play. You can't coach girls like that. I'll say that because I

have a coach boys. But you can't coach girls that way. I hear that. So raised by your mom, brought up in Texas, what was your childhood like? What you know about Brownfield? Um Man? It was, you know, it was. Here's what I'll say now that I'm older, I look back on it and say, like, our childhood was tough, but when you're going up in it, and that's all you know, I mean, it is what it is. Like. All I saw was my mom busting her ass every single day, um to provide for us. And my dad

was not in the picture. My mom and dad got divorced when I was three months old, so I never knew my dad. Um, da're you're making me get chucked up. I met my dad, you know. I met my dad for the very first time when I was thirty years old, and there was no emotion because I, you know, like I don't I don't know him, and yeah, and so he was like, I think expecting something from me as far as like being emotional, But I'm like, dude, I

just met you. I don't I don't know who you are, So how can I be emotional with someone that I don't know? But what I would tell you is what I saw was my mom just God rest her soul. My mom passed away three years ago, but I just I just saw her work hard. That's all I knew, and I know that's what she instilled in me and that's where I got it from. Um. And it was just one of those things that whatever you gotta do

to make it happen, you just gotta do it. And and that's what I kind of felt about, you know what I mean, like people people out there struggling and and suffering and not to mention you know, everything else that that even that we as black people have been dealing with and are going through, we just you know, we gotta we gotta get through it. We gotta figure it out. How this sports play a role in your upbringing and you know, and talk about your sivelers as well.

So I have two older brothers and a younger brother the one that you know you' are having a conversation that they had nothing to do about me. So, but you know what sports was. Sports was huge in my life. Um. Like I said, I grew up with two older brothers and the only way my mom would really let me leave the house is if I told her I was going to go play basketball with my brothers. My mom was very, very, very strict, and at the time, I was just like, damn, she's just so mean, you know,

That's what I thought. But looking back, on it. I'm so glad that she raised me the way she did, um, because at any moment, you know, I could have taken the wrong turn and ended up being somewhere different, just like a lot of my friends were. But you know, sports, and I think people talk about this a lot, but I think more so for for girls or women. Sports was a huge part as far as helping me with my with my self confidence, um, and my self esteem.

I grew up in a very small town. We didn't have a lot and you know, people told me all the time that I couldn't do something because one because of the color of my skin. UM, that I wouldn't be good enough because I was a girl, because I was to this, I was too bad, I wasn't good enough. Um. But because I believed in me and I had the right people around me, meaning my mom and my brothers, UM, it didn't really matter what everybody else said to me because I was determined that I was going to be

successful and prove all those people wrong. And it still happens today. It's an ongoing battle. It don't stop just because you saying like you guys know that right, you guys know that what was your what was your introduction to basketball. I started playing ball when I was seven, and back then we had what we called and West Texas um little dribblers, and I just I knew at a very early age, at the age of seven, that

basketball was was was gonna just change my life. Like I knew that there was something about having a basketball, dribbling a basketball, and I didn't have to be in a gym. I could be in the streets, you know, the lights are off. There was something about having a basketball in my hands that just made me feel invincible. To be very honest with you, and I could never find enough girls that were interested in playing the game.

They were interested in doing so much other stuff, right, But you know, I had my brothers and I had all the fellows that I grew up with. I was like, no, this is what I want to do. And it's just it's so crazy to think about something as simple as a ball, as a basketball could give you, that could make you feel as as invincible as powerful as I felt any time I had a basketball. Absolutely well, you just mentioned that not really finding a lot of girls

that wanted to do the same thing. Who were some of the people you looked up to uh, in the basketball game because obviously, you know, females weren't on TV back then playing basketball, So were you looking up to males or were there any female basketball players that you had looked up to at that time? Unfortunately, they're like, you're right, matth there were no girls. The only time

I actually realized girls played was the Olympics. UM. I never really got a chance to watch the Nancy Lieberman's, the Ann Myers, the Lynette Woodard's, um who have done incredible things for the women's game. So yeah, like a lot of other people out there, m J was. He was my dude, Like I was gonna be in front of the TV anytime MJ was on TV. I was like,

I gotta I gotta watch, I gotta watch. It was something about, you know, and it wasn't me watching because I wanted to be like him, Like my opinion, nobody will ever be like him, but it was there was something about the way he played the game and how competitive he was and like how tough he was and how he walked out there and was like like you like the name of your show. It was like, y'all don't want one to this. I saw that I saw that in him, you know, And I was like, damn,

like like I want to be that way. I want to be good enough where when I walk out on the court, I feel that confidence in people, right, Like my competition will see me and they're like, damn, here comes share all to day. They said, I used to see Mike walk on the court and look at other players on the court like thanks for buying tickets to the show. That's how Mike used to look at But interviewing me, but that was a question I would like, you guys played with played against like m you know, like,

how was that? Well? I personally I missed m J by a year, So Kobe was my guy, was J. But watching the game. Yeah, as far as growing up watching the game, I'm a California kid, so I was the showtime Matthew Johnson fan, so you know, trying to emulate everything he did, and you know, he was him and Grant here with the two guys I looked up to. Yeah, similar, I grew up with Kobe, So I've seen Kobe a lot of growing up. Kobe is the closest thing that

I've ever seen to Mike. But MJ was somebody always looked up to end up playing for him in Charlotte and end up, you know, being a part of team Jordan. So you know, Jordan is always gonna be everybody's number one guy. Back to Basketball's tell me about you. Tell me about your high school experience in Texas and how much did you put in the game when he was in high school? Like how much did you work on your game? Texas basketball? Like is I know a lot

of people say football is a sport in Texas. I won't say it's probably even like Texas basketball is serious. And again for me because I think a lot of it is because of the way I grew up and

the way my mom raised me. I mean, I could not get enough time in the gym and I and I knew if I told her or if she knew I was in the gym, that was gonna be okay, right, But I don't know, It's so crazy when I had friends who they were like Cheryl, it's weekend, it's Friday, it's Saturday, Like we're going to a party, We're going to kick it, We're doing this, we're doing that. You want to come? And even though there were times I wanted to go, first of all, my mom was not

having it. Mom was like, Na, you're not doing that. And then I was like no, Like I wanted to spend the time. I wanted to put the time in, you know, Sundays, go to church, come home, eat, change of clothes. It was basketball all day. We had outdoor courts that we call the Tiger Bowl where we grew up. There was me and one other female that played with the guys. And I'm talking about like I'm in high

school and these are these are grown men. You know, Yeah, I can't really playing you know, no nets, we didn't have nets on. But it didn't matter, Like that was real basketball. And what I think about my my career and why I was able to achieve a lot of the things I did, Like I always go back to, you know, my upbringing and my childhood and and a lot of the old heads that I played with, because they got me ready. What did you know you was

going to the next level? And what moment stood out to you, you know, to give you that indication he was going to the next level. Uh, Like I just I always told myself one that basketball would be my ticket to to college, and basketball would be my ticket to not only change my life, but to change my mom's life. And I was very dedicated. This may be bad, but I was more dedicated to sports than I was to the school. Although I knew I had We all

did that welcome, Welcome, welcome to the club. But I had to make the grade so I couldn't play, you know. So there were times where I did just enough to get by. Um. As much as I hate sitting here saying that, but I did. UM, I don't know. I think at a very young age, Seriously, if we're being honest, I think at a very young age, I knew that God had blessed me with a talent that not a lot of people had, and it was up to me to decide what I was gonna do with that talent.

So when when the w n b A started, um one, I didn't believe it was gonna happen initially, but after it did and I signed my very first w n b A contract, which wasn't an NBA contract, but my I felt like all the hard work, everything I put in, all the sacrifices that I made that my mom made, Yeah, like finally and now I can go out here and I can I can show the world you know what who Sheryl Swoops is and and what this game means to me. Before getting to the w n B A though,

what college is talking about your college experience? What colleges was that for? Um? I mean a lot um everybody. You know. The one school that didn't recruit me was Connecticut.

I know it was one crazy thing. Here's a crazy thing, but back back then, back in the day, Connecticut wasn't like the Connecticut there today it was, you know, but back then it was the University of Texas, UM Tennessee and Tennessee stand here, and being from Texas, you know, being from Texas, I was like, oh, no, long Horns, it is Longhorns. So I initially signed to go play at the University of Texas. I was there for seven

days and got homesick and didn't like transfer. But what I would tell you is it wasn't a thing of me calling my mom saying, hey, I'm homesick, I want to leave. I called my mom every day, balling boo hoo and crying, and she said to me, oh no, no, no, you made this decision. And I didn't talk to her about it. I just said that the long Horns are recruiting me. That's where I'm going. So I called her six nights straight, balling boo hoo and saying I want to leave, I want to come home. And she said,

oh no, no, that's not what we do. You made the commitment, so you gotta do it. And it wasn't until the last day. I called her and I was crying hysterically and I said, Mom, I'm leaving, whether you want me to or not, I'm out. And she finally gave in and said, okay, well baby, come home, and um yeah, and so when I laughed, I transfer went to Texas Tech and you know, as they say, the rest is history. I want a national championship. Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

I had a similar situation when I was at U c l A. I mean, I'm from northern California, so I was only an hour plane flight or six hour drive, but just leaving home for the first time, it was a lot. And although I was in all of I was in l A. At U c l A. I had the same experience. I was driving home once a week. You know, I make the right decision, that's should I just go somewhere closer to home, But I ended up

sticking it out and it was great for me. But I definitely remember those early days in college like, damn, I'm finding away from home. But do I really want to be away from home? I thought I did, right. I was eight out in Austin. At Texas, I was eight hours away, so and that was my first thought was Damn, I just gotta it away from home. And when I did it, I was like, I don't really think this is for me. So you senior year, like you mentioned, you win a national championship at Texas Tech.

UM score forty seven points in the championship game name final for m v P. What was that experience? Like party seventh, Lord right and the team ship. They only won by two. The game wasn't that close. It was one of those games it was. It really wasn't um. It was close, but not a two point game. It was more like a kid point game. But yeah, you know, I had friends who played for Stanford and Tennessee and I would always ask them because those were the schools

that every year, year after year. They were the Connecticuts back then, right year after year, either they're gonna win it or they're at least going to be at the final four and I would always ask them like, what does it feel like? How did you do it? What you know? And they were like, you have to experience it, like I can sit here and tell you, Oh, it's such a great feeling. And in my mind I was like, but that's just not good. Seriously was I was like,

that's not gonna happen. I'll tell you the team I played on at Texas Tech, we weren't the most talented team. We played a two three zone defense the entire game. We weren't very athletic, but we all played our roles right like that's how we were able to win. But the best by the way they did it was anyway.

But the best feeling was being able to have my mom there and my brothers there and share that moment with them, And especially when so many people said, if you leave Texas, you'll never win a championship, and growing up in the town I grew up, so many people doubted that, you know, I would ever be anything and or be successful and leave the city. So to be able to share that moment with my family was the best filling in the world. Winning a national championship is

it's special. It is so special. I missed it. Yeah, Jack checked out of school, Jack Jack, Jack checked out of school in high school. College was never option. It was league or nothing. No, I was. I was on camp as the whole pers semester that I was on and I couldn't pass past the test because I was too busy part of it. And they went on to

win the national championship. You oh, yeah, right, right, yeah, but look but you still made it, still made What was your basketball experience like post college before the w NBA came around. So, Matt, my story is a little different than probably a lot of other players if you

asked them. And and I am a firm believer that I say this all the time that God put me at the right place at the right time when he wanted me there, because when I I'm when when I graduated from Texas Tech, I went to Italy, but I was only there for five months. Um, I played five months, came back home, got my degree, and then ninety six USA Basketball had put together a national team where we

were together for an entire year. We trained in Colorado Springs in preparation for the ninety six Olympics in Atlanta. We trained in Colorado Springs. We did a European tour and they paid us to do that, so I never was in a position where I had to go play overseas in the off season. If I if I did it, it's it was because I chose to do it. But right after the Olympics, then the w NBA started take Me Back tomics. Obviously, you guys get there, you guys

capture gold, but that's also the bombing. So what what was that experience like for you guys with the bomb in Centennial Park? Because I actually just watched the Netflix thing and I forgot what it was called, but they had the guy that they thought set the bomb and he didn't really, but it really fascinated me and brought me back to that point because I remember when I was in high school seeing how big of a deal

that was. And it's crazy because I saw that on Netflix, but I didn't want to watch it because I didn't want to go back to that moment. Too close to home, I can imagine, right. I think, first of all, we all thought it was a joke for whatever reason, because it's like, first of all, we're in the US, right, like that's not happening here. And then Centennial Park was so close to where we were staying. We didn't stay in the Olympic Village with all the other athletes. We

were in Um. Y'all forgive me because I can't even think of the name of the hotel. Um. If I said the Omni, would you say, yeah, does that make sense? Yeah, that's it. That's the Omni right to park. Okay, thank you, because I'm like, is there even an Omni anymore? But that's where yep, that's where we stay. So we actually had a day off and I think most of us were just kind of out doing our own thing. And as soon as the bombing happened, we all start getting

these messages and security and everybody. We all had to get together and they took us away from the hotel until they found out like what was really going on. And I think in that moment though, was it was more about like like why, you know what I mean, like why would someone want to harm a lot of people, not not just Americans, but you're talking about people from all over the world. Yeah, and then just people just fans, right, And it's so And that's why I saw it on Netflix, Matt,

and I was like, mm hmmm. I don't. I don't really want to go back there. Yeah, to this day, they still haven't found the person they really Yeah, they still haven't found the person. They exonerated the person they accused. He ended up dying later, but yeah, to this day, it's still an open case. It's crazy. And you learned that after watching the movie. Yeah, okay, it was. It was a serious It was pretty interesting, but like I said,

it was close to home for you. Um, the w n b A comes around, you're the first player signed, but you don't join the league and uh for actually six weeks after you signed because you had the birth of your first son, which I think is crazy and absolutely amazing. The fact that you guys can go through the whole pregnancy, give birth and then just hop back like right where you picked up at it. It's unbelievable to me, Matt. It does not happen like that. Yea, yeah,

I'll make it look easy. Yeah you look like that though. No, no, no, no, no no, no, let's rewind a little bit. So here here's a crazy thing. When when the after the ninety six Olympics, or during the Olympics, I should say, I had a conversation with Val Ackerman who when when it first started, Val was the president, like we didn't have a commissioner UM and David Stern god rest his soul.

I had conversations with the two of them about UM the w n B A. And you know, at the time, there was another league, the A B L UM that started up immediately after the Olympics, so a lot of most of the players joined the A B L. But I had a conversation with Val and David and they both asked me not to play in the A B L, that the w n B A was gonna start, and they wanted me to, you know, basically market the league, get people excited about it. And you know, I mean

why not. I needed a break, wanted a break. They were gonna pay me so I didn't have to play in the A B L. And after that, I remember, I still didn't believe it was gonna happen until I actually signed that first contract with the w n B A. And as you said, I when I signed my contract, I did not know I was pregnant. I found out later and my initial reaction was shit, like, what is the league gonna think? What is the league gonna do? I'm letting the league down. I'm letting the fans down.

I am the face of the league, like I gotta play, But there was no way I could play. Um obviously there was no way I could play, And it was never a question of whether I was going to have

my son or not. So I waited until after my first trimester, had a conversation with um val Ackerman and told her what was going on, and she was so supportive and was just like, well, I mean, you know, that's as female athletes, that is one thing that we have to think about, right if we want to start a family and have kids, we have to think about that. But she said, as soon as you're you know, you're ready, you're able, you're healthy, Like, we'll be ready for you.

But meanwhile, I continue to market the league and do things for the league. But as you said, six weeks after I gave birth to my son, I was back out of the court, and not so much that I was like, no, I gotta play, right, because that was impossible. I gained fifty five pounds I was pregnant, so I was like, there's no way. But the reason why I did it is because I wanted to be a part of the inaugural w NBA season, Like that was very

important to me to just be a part of it. Um. But it was not as easy as I don't know people, yeah, because you made it sound like day I wish it was that easy. No, it um. It took me. Honestly, it took me an entire year to get back into playing shape. So you end up joining your team and you guys from the first year established a dynasty. We're able to win four straight titles? How tough after one, defending two, after two, defending three, and then finally getting

that fourth. How tough was that each year with your team considering as a league, we ain't wait more than four. You want to know the truth, man, You know, here's us crazy. So when the league first started that first the first season, like there wasn't a draft, like players got to point it. So with me being from Texas, they said, all right, you're from Texas, You're going to play in Houston. And with Cooping living living in Houston, they appointed her to Houston and a lot of people

didn't know about it. They were those players' sack, but letson know. But there were other teams that were the same. But people didn't really know about Coop because she had been playing overseas, right, she was one of those players that had to go play overseas because there was no professional league. So then after we get a pointed, right, then l A gets Lisa Leslie and I don't even know who the other player was, to be honest with you. So then there's a draft and we end up drafting

Tina Thompson. But no one, but no one knew how good Tina was gonna be. And so because I had played in the Olympics and Cooper played overseas, I knew this player from Brazil named Janette or Kane who was like all she's like all everything in Brazil. So then we get Janette to come and be on the team, and now you have you have four players. Is honestly, who on any given night can can give you thirty or forty seriously, So now it's about, well, let's go

find us some role players. Some of your toughest matchups O UM playing l A was always tough, Like Lisa Leslie is one of the toughest competitors I've ever played with and against UM, even though we don't play the same position. Those were good battles that we had. Um, Tamika Catchings catches just a baller, like she was gonna defend you all night long. UM. And some you know players that a lot of people probably don't know or

talk about. Like when the league first started, we had a lot of international players that could go Like there were a couple of players from Russia that we're not I mean ice that could just play. So defending a lot of the playing against a lot of the international players was I won't say it was tough. It was good competition, like like they were just good. And when I look at current players, I know you didn't ask me this question, but current players, UM, because the players

today I didn't really play against. UM. But like Angel mccatrey, I think I think Angel's heck of a player. Loved Angel. Angel reminds me of myself. She plays both ends of the floor. I just I love her game, love watching her play. Huge Asia Wilson fan, I love Asia Wilson. I think Asia will be one of the best players in the league. UM. The player I will leave with would be Lauren Jackson, who played for Seattle. For people who don't to play for Seattle, Lauren, Lauren was the true. Yeah,

you gotta give Lisa problems. We gotta gives prolem she be. She's the first woman. She's the first woman to have a w NBA championship and also be the coach to coach a professional men's team to a championship in the Big threship. Beat me in the championship with Joe Johnson team. So salute to Lisa. Salutes. I think I was there when she beat you. So yeah, hell, goddamnito too much. Joe Johnson was too much. Actually got him on the

show coming soon. But Joe was just too much. Let me ask you a question since you brought that up, because I I heard some people saying, oh, because Nancy did Nancy win the first championship. She did, she won the second one, the second one, the second one, Nancy won the second, and then Lisa won the third. So I heard a lot of people saying that they were given players to stack their team so that they could make a big deal out of a female coaching the

men's teams and winning a championship. I can answer that that's absolutely false. Um, Corey mcgetty and Contino Mobley picked Nancy Lieberman to be their coach first of all, Um, and before John Johnson came in the league, they asked Joe Johnson, they gave him a number of coaches who he wanted to play for, and he also picked Lesa Leslie. So yeah, so I I have been the face of this league. I have been the face of the Big Three since and started, and Joe took it from me now.

But that that is the facts. That's what's up. I like that. I like that. So, um, you were able to experience a lot of success early on in the w n b A. But outside of actually playing, what are some of the challenges you and some of the bigger name players face continuing to try to grow the league and getting respect and getting equal pay and in the whole nine, Because it's still I struggled to this day. Mm hmm. She took a deep breath before this one.

Where did I did? I just listen? I take a lot of pride in watching the league succeed and doing my part to try and help it succeed, right, But at the same time, I also feel like it's one of those things where it's like, thank you, guys for what you did for us. Now it's time to move on to other players, current players, and I take that

very personally. It's almost like a slap in the face when you look at where the league started and all the players who helped get the league to where it is today, and for for us not to be included in this may be real petty, but I don't really care.

So when I look at the NBA, right I look at NBA All Star and all the events and things that are going on um surrounding NBA All Star, you always see former players involved in some capacity, and I think that's important because I also think there's a connection that former players have with the fans and even with the players. But that doesn't happen in the w n B A, So I don't know if that was two

years ago. All Star Game is in Las Vegas, and again it's not this big, grand ceremony celebration like the NBA. I get that, but you still have so many former players who are around who want to be a part of the league, who want to help grow the league, but you don't take it and into that, and you don't use use us to help do that. So when I go to the Skills Challenge, this is two All Star Games ago. I go to the skills Challenge right to watch the w n b A do their little thing.

It's not packed a gazillion seats on the floor. I get someone walk up to me and say, sure, you can't sit on the floor, your seat is up there. Mm hmm. Now when I say that, maybe petty, I don't look at that as being petty, because the way I look at that is what your bank as disrespectful. And not not only that, y'all there's five empty seats

on the floor. Nobody's there watching first of all, right, like seriously, And then I turned and look at who you who you did allow to sit on the floor, And I'm like, there is something seriously wrong with this picture. It really is. And I have over over the years, I have become more vocal about the treatment and or mistreatment and how I feel about it, because I think if you want to continue to see the league grow and be successful, you have to start using your former

players to make that happen. And a lot of the fans in the w n b A are fans from back in the day who still have that connection or they want that connection of relationship with the former players. And I just don't see how that could hurt if if anything, it's only going to help grow the game. And I do know for a fact that there I

am not the only player that feels that way. I mean, like Jack said, I mean, the league was built on your guys is back and the fact that there's no homage or almost even respect um when it comes to recognizing who helped the foundation of this league that has continued to grow ever since. But like you said, it's still it's funny you say that because I feel a similar way with U C l A. It's almost like we did what we did out there, and then once

you're gone, you're gone, and who's next? You know what I mean? We had probably arguably the most guys in the NBA, but they don't you unless you're back donating thousands, a hundreds of thousands of dollars, they don't give a shit about you. Like they don't use us to recruit nobody, They don't use us to do anything, and we're some of the most recognizable figures in the game, but they don't utilize this, you know what I mean. It's like,

what's the point, you know? So it's I I could obviously yours is on a higher level because it's professional. But I get exactly what you're saying. It's just like, once you did what you did, it was great for what you did, it right you thank you for what you did. But who's up next now? Instead of being like, Okay,

well we appreciate you, how can we integrate you? Because to me, you can't tell me that having me call someone, having Baron Davis called someone, Russell Westbrook call someone, some of these guys call some of these players, and using a recruiting pitch is not gonna help you recruit players, just like it's not gonna help for you guys. Gonna help you guys to be there to continue to grow the game, Matt. You may not they may not get the players, but they're at least going to listen to you.

Do you know what I mean? Like, I think that, to me, that's a no brainer, And why people can't see that and don't take advantage of that is beyond me to touch on that. I know when I you know, I've been to a couple of All Star Games and you know, I'm not know where the players in the NBA that you were, that you was in the w n b A and the respect that you deserve. But they have tickets at All Star games and floor seats for theft guy on the roster when All Star weekend

in any city. So it's no way that the face of the w n b A should not be able, you know, to set on the floor. So I I totally understand your pain. But the NBA does a great job of bringing w n BAY players and getting them and All Star weekend, you know what I mean. So so I don't understand what you're saying. No, I was

just gonna say. Some people might listen to that and they're like, that is so petty, but it really isn't like I have done so much for this game, for the league, and I continue to do it daily, and for me to expect to be treated a certain kind of way, I don't think that's asking too much, not at all. My one question is did you move seats when they came and told you that wasn't your seat? So listen, let me tell you. So now I tell you, let me. The angry black woman in me came out.

This is what I wanted to hear. I want to hear this. I wanted to I wanted to. I wanted to cuss it the screen when you just told me what happened, Like, what the funk? I left? I left the whole, Jim. I left the whole Jim. Then, well, let's sence you ask that question. No, let me let me, let me finish the story. I left the gym right. The next day was the actual All Star game. Okay, the next day it was an actual All Star game.

And our tickets. Again, they weren't a nose bleep but some bullshit, I'll say it for you, but let me tell you what happened, man. So instead, I come to the game and I sat courtside. So the same person that told me the day before that I couldn't sit there comes over to me and says, oh, you didn't pick up your ticket for the game. Um, how did you get this one? I said, first of all, it wasn't none of your business. I didn't get it from you. Who is? So I ended up the owner, the owner

of the aces. He gave me a ticket. He was like, no, you need to be sitting courtside right next to me. So that caught that was a whole anyway. I'm like, really, well, someone someone from the w NBA is going to hear this. Y'all need to treat your legends better, especially if you want the game to grow, if you want people to continue to support, if you want outside people to support, you can't be treating the people that laid the foundation for this game like ship and that's what you guys

are doing. And how many players you know, got chips out to ask man more than she can count and v and also for the players though, right, like, there are things that the current players can learn from the veterans. Absolutely, ship that we went through that you know, we can share with you guys and talk to you guys about. Absolutely, that's all he wants. So three time Olympic gold medalists,

what were those experiences? Like? You know, obviously being in the w n b A is huge because it just starts, but it's a different kind of pride representing your country and being able to do it successfully three three times over a twelve year span. How fun was that? Man? Like one other which want you want home? But you know, Matt, when I won a championship in college, I said like, oh my god, this is great and it doesn't get

any better than this. So then I go to the w n b A and win championships, and I'm like, oh, my God, doesn't get any better than this. But I'll tell you, winning hips bad, my bad, my bad, my bad, bad. You said it. But winning an Olympic excuse me, three Olympic gold medals is on a completely different level because you're not only representing your city or your town, or your school or your team, it's your country, right, and you're competing against other countries best that they can possibly

send to compete heat and and you're playing alongside the best. Yeah, we had some incredible talent on on all of those Olympic teams. But you know, even though that was nine two thousand four, I still take a lot of pride in it when I look at where we are as a country, right, and being a black woman in this country having an opportunity to compete on the highest level

and put on that USA uniform. And this is a part I get a little emotional because you know, when the whole insurrection and stuff happened, And if I'm supposed to talk about this, y'all, tailor, but when the whole insurrection happened and you see some of the people who were in there there's the freaking Olympic gold medalist on the swimmer, right. Yeah, and so my my my response to that when I saw it a lot, But when I saw him was why did you ever put on

a us H jersey regardless of what you're competing in? Like, do you truly understand what that represents? Because even though I don't compete anymore, I don't play anymore, and and being a black person in this country is difficult, male or female, it's difficult. I still take a lot of I still take a lot of pride in representing my country because it it is. It is my country. Whether people want to say that or disagree or not, it is. And so it's hard for me to sit back and

watch stuff like that and not feel some type of way. Yeah, at what point in your career did you realize that you would come into role model to other little girls and even boys that look up to the game of basketball. I think even in college, you know, I always take a lot of pride in trying to do something for someone else. And somebody asked me this question today. They said, during you know, the pandemic and everything that's going on, how do you get through? And my response to that was, yeah,

you have to find time for yourself. But I try to take the focus off of myself and think about somebody else that probably has it a little bit worse than I do, So I try to figure out how

can I help that person. So even playing and in college, to me, it takes nothing to stop and sign an autograph for somebody or to say hello, And you never know what that person is going through or what that person has been through, and just to stop and say hi or sign an autograph could completely change that person's day,

if not their life. So I think for me in college and one growing up in a small town and going to Texas Tech and being in Love Book, everybody knew everybody, so I kind of was like the local celebrity or local hero. Um so I and because of that, I knew that and I took a lot of pride in that, and I always tried to carry myself in a way that um, when people looked at me, they could look at me and say, she she's just a great person. You know, it's not about being a great athlete.

She's just a great human being. And that's what that's that's what I always try to do I don't. I don't mean to go out to think, but I got two questions that I I just thought about. One. We talked to Dion Sanders and he we talked about his curl. He said, his curl you had. You had a famous curl too, said, this girl looked wet dry? Did Joe curl look wet? Wasn't drying? I wasn't actually went on the collar and all that because that she was blowing to the curl. What was it? What was that? It

was just it was a slick back. Wasn't the slick back that was the college days though? Right? The curl she had, she had the slick thought she had a curve. We thought it was a curl. Now, I don't know. I had some of everything going on in college. Have a curl. I had a curl that really wasn't a curl, but it was supposed to be a curl, a wet curl like the one you know where it was everything said dr said, he look wet, but it was really dry.

My dad, my dad had to wet one to wear tel around his neck to make sure he didn't get all of his shirts. So yeah, I know all about that.

My my second question was how good was Don state Oh, she's one of my favorite ever Mine too, so I was fortunate enough to play with her in the Olympics and then I played with her one year for um with the comments, Dawn is you know, I hate when people do the whole comparison thing like Lebron and m J, because I say, it's just different, Like the timing is different, rules, the rules are different, right, fouls are different, all of

those things. So even now when people say, well, Sue Bird is the best point guard ever, m maybe because you never saw Don Staley play, I mean, you know what I mean. And that's not taking anything away from Sue. I think Sue is a good point guard, but when you start talking about the best, I don't know, I don't know what That's what I would say. And Don Stateley, to me, is the epitome of what a true point

guard should be. Right. She runs the team, She gets in your ship when she needs to, She puts people where they're supposed to be, and she is the fifth option. When you talk about scoring, that's like the last thing on her mind. And it's just a competitor. And when I look at what she has done with South Carolina. Yes, man, listen, don't stay to me. They don't talk about her enough, what she's doing in the women's game. I love me some, don I'm glad you did because I love me some

down States for um. So you've got a chance to spend eleven years in Houston. This is a two part question. So how how how important was it to you to play there and be able to represent your home state, And then how hard was it for you to leave in two Seattle? That was the hardest thing ever. You know, I always thought I would retire a Houston comment, but when the team bold and all that stuff, so like I don't have a jersey that's retired hanging up in

Toyota Center because the comments folded. But that was the hardest thing for me to play the majority of my professional career in Houston in Texas and then go play for Seattle for a year and then go play Potrols for a year. At that point, I was like, look, I'm not gonna be that player. Like it's it's it's time, you know, it's like it's time, I'm done. But it's tough when you spend your entire career with one team

and then at the end of your career. You you think you can still play a little bit, but that team doesn't. So it's like, but I still got a little juice left to give, y'all, you know. And so I comes along and they're like, all right, sure we'll take you. So because I still wanted to play, I was like, all right, I'm I'm out. But that was that was hard. I hated. I hated leaving to go play somewhere else. And it's nothing against Seattle, because we

had great battles Seattle. I love the players I played with there. But to to not finish my career in Houston, um, it was tough. You just mentioned it right now. When did you know, because sometimes we're the last ones to know. When did you know it was time? That's true, that's true. Um, you know I always told myself that when it got to a point where there was no longer a challenge or anything for me to strive for, that it was

time for me to retire. And when I say that, like, I accomplished far more than I ever thought I would accomplish playing basketball. Um, So it got to a point where I was like, all right, well, what's the next challenge? Um. But physically I had I had back surgery. I had a ruptured disc. So I had back surgery in two thousand and ten, and the doctor told me, if you don't have surgery, you're done playing right, and if you have surgery, it's about a seventy five chance you can

play again. So I decided to have the surgery, not not for playing purposes, but just so when I was done playing, I wanted to have a life right. And so after I came back from back surgery, I knew then that I would never be the same, but Seattle was like, we we need you, we still want you. So I came back played that year. And after that year with Seattle, I was like, NA, Like I don't I don't want to end my career like this. Um. So I went through another off season of rehabbing and

training and my body felt really good. So I thought I was gonna go back to Seattle one more year. Nope. I got the axe. And a lot of people don't know that, but I got the ax from Seattle, and that's how I ended up at Tulsa. Played one year in Tulsa and then I was like, no, y'are not gonna do me like that, I'm done so and you're right, man, because sometimes we don't right. But I never wanted to be that player that retired and then said, oh man, I got two more years and then try to come back.

That to me was just like get it out, get it out. You only live once, do it. So two thousand and sixteen, you have the honor of being inducted to the Nate Smith Basketball Hall of Fame. Explained to us what that feeling was like, Man, you really do want me to cry down, don't you. Um So, listen, listen. The reason why I get so emotional when I think about that, and I'll probably talk fast, is that was the last trip that my mom was able to go on with me before she passed. And it was special

because my mom passed away from colon cancer. But the doctors had told her that she like, she couldn't even make that trip, and she said to me, she was like, oh no, I can't make that trip. I will be there. Um So, when I think about that, having her front row, front and center and so so proud and so happy in you know, in that moment, it wasn't about her or her illness. It was about me. You know, and I could see how proud she was and um to be able to share that with her after the entire

journey that we had gone through. I started playing ball when I was seven. You know, my mom was with me the entire time and at times telling me no, you shouldn't play, you shouldn't do that, and then becoming my biggest fan. Um, you know. And I think it's an athlete. We all want to be remembered for something that we gave to the game, right And I think it's different for everybody, but for me in that moment being at the Hall of Fame and this is the Nai Smith Hall of Fame where it's the best of

the best. You know, it's not about it's not about being a man being a woman. It's the best of the best. And you know, and I'm sharing that moment with with with my husband, with my son, but you know my mom and in this building is I say, it's royalty. You know what I mean, you got the

Dr Jay's magic. Everybody that's a Hall of Famer. And I remember when I was giving my speech looking at my mom and I could see this look on her face of like we did it, Like this is where you're supposed to be, so to be able to share that with her, um, you know, and then come home and seriously, it was man, not even not even a year later that she passed, but it was like, seriously, it's still hard for me at times to really grasp what it what it truly means to be in the

Hall of Fame, like it really is a lot of people don't know to a lot of people understand too. When you talk about Hall of Fame, they're not just talking about your professional in your w b A. They're talking about your whole career and basketball body of work, your body of work. That's the people that make it to the Hall of Fame, that has that have legendary he's of work in the game, and that's the testament to you. So congratulations again man, you belong n Man.

But I think that's dope though, because, like I said, although different but but similar at the same time, you got to share that experience with your mom, you know what I mean. In my mentioned a second ago, I lost my mom to canterer in two thousand and eight. I came into the NBA in two thousand to two thousand three, but bounced around really never got a chance to play and in two thousand and six and seven with our We Believe Warrior team. You know, I kind

of really found my footing. And my mom was at every single home game and got to see like her baby succeed at my dream. And then she died less than a year later, you know what I mean. So I know what you mean when you you say this experienced that ultimate moment that your mom's get to get to share with you, because she was there with you from the beginning. So I know exactly how you feel to get that that that big moment quote unquote to

share with you. You know, it's like you can take a deep breath right like, yeah, and that's exactly how I felt. Yeah, special, that's beautiful. It's beautiful. Um, how crucial was it because you know, like you said, you've you've been in this since the beginning, um to help get salaries raised. You know, unfortunately the majority of these girls, you were one of the lucky ones, but the majority of these girls have to go overseas as soon as this season ends to kind of make ends meet. So

you guys really never get real time off. So how important is it to you to continue to raise awareness to help these salaries continue to grow, so these women can make a real living and not have to go do crazy things just to be a professional athlete in the w n b A. And it's some of the top players too, Matt like, well for both of Yeah,

you're right, Jack, it's it's important, you know. And here's the thing that drives me crazy when you see all these social media trolls, whether that's Instagram, Twitter, anytime you see a w NBA player comment about salaries, they immediately go to, well, you're not Lebron James, you shouldn't be. And no one's saying that. But what they are saying is we deserve to be compensated for our body of work. Right. It's not saying yeah we should. We should be signing

multimillion dollar contracts like the NBA. No, but the NBA didn't sign those contracts when the NBA was in their twenty fifth season, you know. So, yeah, it's gonna take time. But the thing that that that I'm proud of is the new cb A that the player signed is like, that's a great step in the right direction. So when when we played, I had a child, Um, you know, childcare wasn't taken care of. I had to pay for that out of my pocket. You know, if I wanted my nanny to travel, I had to pay for that

out of my pocket. Even as a mom, I'm sharing a room with one of my teammates, So if I want my own room, I gotta pay for that, pay the difference out of pocket. So of course, if I'm traveling with my son and my manny, I'm gonna get my room. I'm gonna get a room for a nanny so my son can be there. So all those things we had to go through so that the players today know what to ask for. Right, we didn't know. The

league had just started. We were just happy to be playing, right, It's like you want us to sleep in bunk beds, We're gonna sleep in a bunk bed. Didn't matter, right, because we didn't know what to ask for. So when I look at the players today, yeah, they're educated. They continue to see what's going on around them, and they understand their worth. And not to say that we didn't, but again, the league was just you gotta start somewhere, and I say, somebody's gotta be, somebody's gotta be. Lack

of a better word, I'll say guinea pig. Right. So, now we we didn't fly on private planes. We flew commercial. We play in Houston on a UM Tuesday at seven, game finishes at nine. By the time you get home, it's midnight. We gotta be up at six in the morning the next day because we gotta go get on a plane. We have it back to back in Phoenix, right, Like, that's what we did. But we made it work. Yeah,

we made it work. So when when I look at and and it's not just about them fighting for better work conditions and better salary and things like that, but they like they stand up and they speak out and they use their voices, whether that is around social justice or any you know, the election politics, any of that stuff. Like they're saying, listen, these things matter to us too.

Just because we're athletes doesn't mean we don't care about those things, and it doesn't mean we shouldn't have a voice. You know. It goes back to the whole thing they said about Lebron shut up and dribble. No, Like, that's not what we're gonna do. And so I make it. I take my hat off to those ladies because they're they're not afraid to just you know, stand up and and speak up and speak out and say right is

right and wrong is wrong. But at the same time, it's because of what you guys went through that they understand their worth now, right absolutely. But you know, and I hear I get a lot of people ask me. You know, they say, well, do you wish you were still playing today? And then your salary would be what these ladies are making. So here's what I say, Well, that's a dumb question, because of course I would move to make more money right when I was playing, I

would love to make more money. But I'm not mad at these ladies because they are making more than what I made when I played. That's the way it's supposed to be. It's supposed to happen that way, right. How proud are you of the w w NBA players making a stand taking this in Um, I mean, I'm I'm proud.

But you know what I would say is this isn't new, Like, this isn't anything new for the w n b A from from the time I feel like from the time the w n b A first started in n it was there was always something surrounding the w n b A the players aren't good enough, all the players are gay. The league's not gonna last. So we've always had to fight against something, fight for something. We always have to

stand in our ground for something. So to to see what the women are doing now, like it's no surprise to me. I think it's a surprise to a lot of other people because they don't know the women like that. They've never seen them like that. And it's not just about what they bring to the court and what they have to offer the game, but it's so much bigger

than that. Like there's a lot of strong, talented, smart women who play in the w n b A that are very educated and they they're very well aware of what's going on around them, what's going on in this in this world, in this country, and they're going to speak up. And you know, I don't know if here's what makes them so powerful is that they all been

together right together, Like they all stick together. So when somebody comes in and says, Kelly author, who was is whatever the owner of Atlanta Dream, like she's wrong, yeah, right, Like one player comes in and says, guys, listen, and all of a sudden, everybody's like, you're right. So then you see them coming in wearing they're warnut T shirts, Like that's a powerful statement. Even though people may not

may not think so, that's a powerful statement. So yeah, I'm I'm very proud to see you know, what they continue to do on a daily basis, and they do so much more than that that goes unnoticed. Yeah. I said this when I was doing ESPN. I said, obviously,

you guys strength as in your unity. But if any group understands what fighting for equality is, it's the w n B A because you guys have been fighting for equality since the inauguration of the of the league, you know, So if anyone understands what it's like to fight for whether it's equality in the game or just social equality in our country. And that's why you saw because the

w NBA represents every color of the rainbow. There's all kinds of different nationalities in there, but all from the white to the to the every other race, they understood and stood you know, uh, you know, tin toes down with everything that these black players were doing because they understand, like, you know, these are our sisters, but at the same time,

we understand what it's like fighting for equality overall. So the w n b A is always to me even special in that area one because your guys unity is is unmatched. But like you said, there's so much more that they do that we don't actually get a chance to see. We get to see now more because it's talked about and everyone is doing it. But they've always been behind the scenes, pushing the envelope and fighting um even when we didn't even realize there was a fight

to be had. Wow, you know, Matt, it's it's so crazy to think back when the w n b A first started and you know, some of the things and issues that we had and stuff that we had to fight for, but it was nowhere near the scale that it is today. Like you're you're talking about someone's life, you know what I mean that these women are standing up for and they're fighting for saying this is not okay.

And to me, if if more people, right, if more people would take that stance when they see something is wrong, regardless of color, raised nationality, when they see something wrong. Yeah, if more people would do that, I think we as a country would be in a better place. But what I think, what I think it has it has done though it's it's given it's given people to allow people and insight into who who these women really are. Like again, they're more than athletes. And like you said, you have

you got white, you got black. And I mean the w n b A just like the NBA, it's black. But you saw a lot of the white players who were at the front of the line, you know, saying these are my sisters and brothers, and so I am gonna be here with them. I'm gonna walk alongside them, I'm gonna be a part of this with them. And I think because of that, you've got everybody together. That's a strong, powerful statement. Absolutely, something we can all learn from.

Something NBA can learn from two is your guys, unity and togetherness. All right, coming down the home stretch, we really appreciate your time. We got quick hitters. First thing to come to mind, Jack ahead, your favorite teammate. Next, nice, we're gonna you're gonna do that to me. We're we're all day. You plus four going to play a pickup game at the park, Me plus four, Lisa Leslie of course, Cynthia Cooper, oh my god, don stay yeah, well, y'all gonna play against me and at the Rutger you ain't

going to the all day too. I want to be your six man. Three songs from the late nineties that was in your pre game playlist. I want to hear this with some with some R songs from the late nineties that was in your pre game playlist. That turns you up, That turns you up from Texas, So I know you got something. No, here's a crazy thing, like I listened to Mellow music before, asked. I asked because

I'd been listening. I'll go from park to like R and B. I don't know if this was nineties like, but my my go to song before a game was Mary Mary though shackles. Yeah but that nineties yeah, okay, yeah yeah and probably Whitney used to anything Whitney. I was good, Like, that's what I didn't listen to all this upb rat. That just that got me in a place where I was like, no, my mind is all over the place. I had to calm the nerves. I love it. I love it. Uh. Five dinner guests that

are alive. Oh what my mom is coming back for sure? Um? Michelle and Barack the Obama's mm hmm, let me see my mom, Michelle rock and you too, how about that time out now? But if you too, come my mama can't come. No, no, no, we know how mama. Okay, Yeah, Michelle and m Rock. I like that. That's gonna be good. I'm not a good time. I love it. Last question, Yeah, and when you ask this question, you have to help us with your answer, so be careful about your answer.

One guess you'd like to see on All the Smoke? I know who? I want you to say? WHOA Okay, we need uh and it doesn't matter who I say. Okay, let me think. Oh, i'd like to see Barack Obama on your show. Great, we're working on that. I can't help you to one and he would do it too. I was about I was about to say c C cynthing Coop, Oh, God, shouldn't do it. In a heartbeat? Cooper is gonna show out. Yeah, yeah, I'll seend you. I'll send you her info. She would, she would do

it in a heartbeat. I gotta thank you for your time. It's been a pleasure. Um w N b A. If you're listening, treat your legends right. God damn it all be coming for you. Um but but but thank you for your time. Continued blessings will to you and your family and best of luck and everything you're doing. Oh my gosh, you guys are awesome. Appreciate it. Much love to both of you, Thank you, thank you. That's a wrap. Special guest Cheryl Swoops. You can catch this on Showtime Basketball,

YouTube and the I Heart platform Black Effects. We'll see you all next week. This is all a Smoke, a production of The Black Effect and Our Heart Radio in partnership with Showtime