Rachel Nichols | Ep 83 | ALL THE SMOKE Full Episode | SHOWTIME Basketball

in the way of shape. I know it's a little something something. Thank you so much. I'm just saying, well, I only give alcohol for gifts. There are people in my life who are sober and then I get to find like a pet rock or something. This is all I know. Thank you so much, though, Thank you? How come with gifts? How does it feel being old? Uh? It feels great to be thank you old? Look good and especially what we've all been through as a country, as friends and families last year to be here and happy.

So something we're celebrating you today. So Rachel with Jack saying that what is one thing you took from It's funny we talk all the time, like we should be grateful, we're also fortunate all that stuff. I don't think that landed with me enough before. And I can say that I would have argued with you before I get it.

I would. I don't think it landed with me quite enough to just appreciate all the ship that goes right every day, because there's so much that goes wrong, and it's so easy to get caught up in that and this isn't fair, and this has happened to me, and there's important stuff that we have to channel that into. But that's kind of the point. That's the important ship, like the big injustices the big things and the little

day to day things. I have done a much better job after this year of just not sweating that as much and being able to if they're little things that come into my mind and life, have them be the good stuff. You know, here we go, Rachel, tell us about you. Let's start tell us about your upbringing. The conversations than me and you've never had so tell us about your upbringing and we're on a hot seat today. Well, I think this is one of the things I love about the show. Not to even cut you off, but

it's just like Rachel. We know each other, we conversated, we text, we work together. But like when we do stuff like this, you get to learn your friends more. Yes, and I think that it is dope. Well, you guys know, I grew up outside watched in d C, which gave me a very tortured sports existence because a Bullets fan. And let me explain to you it has been right, I would say. Now, so they played in an arena and landover Maryland. They had a different name than the

team has now. They play in a different state than now, owned by a different person. So when people say to me like, oh, wouldn't be a team are you attached to? I'm kind of attached to a team. It doesn't exist anymore. The franchise still exists, and it's very sad because that franchise has not been in a even conference finals in forty years. So it has been a long desert. And people who are fans of teams that don't do so well with sometimes like, man, you're always ragging on our team.

So I'm like, is the pain I know experience? This pain? The football team that was really great when I was a kid, Right, they won three championships I think in like fifteen years when I was growing up. So it really gave me that love of sports that was kind of bounced out by the fact that I was a sad, frustrated little girl Bullets fan that were these Bullets T shirts that people would laugh at me for. But the important thing is it was enough for me to know, like,

this is what I want to do. And I just always felt like I don't want to be in an office, and there were so many paths in sports for women that are available now that frankly just were. So this was kind of the way to have a job in sports for me, and it tapped into some things that I'm kind of okay at and I was able to sort of just pursue that and say, Okay, this is

what I want to do. But that's where it all came from, is growing up in d C and just the mix there is pretty awesome high school basketball there. Talk to us about your journey because it wasn't easy. You got pushed back. Some people didn't consider sports journalism serious. So talk to us about that in the pushback and what you had to overcome to not only be a woman but taking your what you want to do serious as well. Well. When I went to college, I had

great journals and professors at Northwestern. Again, not the best sports teams. I I apparently can only go to places where there's a lot of struggle, But um, the journalism programs great. And to their credit because they were trying to help me, they were really trying to steer me into covering news. They're like, you, you're so smart, You're such a nice girl. You don't want to work in sports.

This this won't you know. It's the toy department. That's what people used to call it in newspapers, and toy department. That was the thing. And I was just sort of like, no, this is actually what I want to do. And part of the deal in Northwestern is you have an internship program that the schools attached too, and you you have

to do it. It's for credit. And I wanted to do it in sports, and I had to like go present to the board of the college and everything about why the program, about why I wanted to do it, and they've never done it before, but they finally let me do it, and that led to my first job. And my first job was covering the university of Miami football team back in the nineties when it was the and I graduate from college early. I was twenty one.

Ray Lewis was a fifth year senior for that team, and that team was out of control, both both good ways and tough ways. Ray Lewis's roommate was murdered and ray came home and found him. I mean, there are a bunch of ship went down that year, and it was the education of a lifetime of preparing me for the rest of my life in this career. But it

was awesome. And if I hadn't kind of convinced them to let me do it in the first place, I never would have gotten that job because that was the place I inter talk about your first time on television. Oh man, I was terrible. I'm still not very good. That's the problem is that I'm the things I'm good at is not what I'm you know, like when I grew up. I don't know about you guys. Like the women on TV. They were tall and blonde, largely and kind of very polished and that whole vibe, and that's

just not my up. You guys are on TV with me. I'm if we make a mistake on the air. What do I was the first thing I do. I talk about it in the air. I talk the producers crazy. They're like, you don't have to say every time we mess up. But to me, I rather be this like rolling mess in front of everyone then try to like I'm just you know. And when I started out on TV, I just tried to be that glossy thing. I'm just not that person. So it took me a while to

figure out. And Stuart Scott was actually great with me when I was kind of trying to feel my way because I think for the beginning for him, a lot of people wanted him to be something he wasn't, and he just kept saying to me, He's like, you could be great at being you, you were only gonna be like sixty or sev being someone else. And it sounds obvious, but it's hard when everybody looks an X like the other,

like a cooks and cutter You've mentioned before. Craig Sager was someone you just mentioned, Stewart Scott, rest in peace. Who were some of the people you looked up to in this space Because in your in sports, there wasn't very many women for me, so I grew up in thet n DC area. The Washington Post, great newspaper. I think I read that book All the President's Men, like forty fifty times. It was very embarrassing that I could recite it. I wanted to work for the Washington Post.

And part of that, too, was because Tony Cornheiser a woman named Christine Brennan who now is with USA Today and there's a lot of television on CNN and some other places where for the Washington Post, and she was the first female, like full time beat writer of an NFL team. She covered the Washington football team, and she was the first woman to do it full time. But I was a kid reading that and I didn't know she was the first person to do it full time.

I just knew. I opened the newspaper and I read about the team I liked, and there was a woman who wrote about it. So I just assumed I could do that because I saw it. And it wasn't until much leader that people kept saying to me, like, come on, you can't really do that, and it was too late because I had already seen her do it, and that

made such an impression on me. Once later I found out kind of have that dynamic plays when your kid you don't understand it, but it's why I think now you know, we use representation as we almost overuse it sometimes as losses meaning but if you can't fucking see anybody doing what you're doing is very hard to get there, and you can see people doing it, it just changes the whole equation. So she did that for me, beautiful. You haven't had second doubts what this the last five

minutes is. And she was in your career, you think so, I mean, yeah, yeah, sure. I mean there's times where I sit there and whether it's like the practical stuff if it's two in the morning and you're exhausted and you've done X or Y and it didn't go the way you wanted to and you're like, why why am I giving up all the stuff in my life? I mean, I've missed weddings and miss family stuff, I miss whatever. There's times where I screw up and you're just sitting

there like, okay, really, like that came out of my mouth? Why? Um? But I know it's the thing I love like I know I love it. I still love it all the time, and that's what keeps me feeling like I'm doing the right thing, you know, that's right, join ESPN and O four kind of worked your way around different sports, landed with NBA coverage towards the end, and kind of hit the ground running in that space. Talk to us about that journey and kind of finding your path on you know,

the stage of ESPN presence. Yeah. So I started out basically covering what people let me cover, right. So one of my early imagined college football, one of my early jobs was covering hockey. I like hockey, but it wasn't like my dream to be doing hockey, but that's what was available, and that's you know, I told you guys, I wanted to work for the Lashing Post. There's a job that opened up in the Washington Poast covering the

hockey beat. And I have been in this this experience where the newspaper I was working because the stork in newspapers in Florida. The Florida Panthers go to the NHL the Stanley Cup Finals in just their third year of existence, and they didn't have a ton of infrastructure in the media there to cover hockey because it was a brand new team, right, and all of a sudden, there was all this interest and all this stuff up. And I grew up in the Northeast and so I knew a

lot about hockey. So my old sports letter, who was a great guy, was just like, yeah, I'm throwing you on with the other hockey people. And I had a person in the media, not who worked with me, but who worked in the media down there, who turned to me like, I don't know early in the Stanley Cup finals game and says, Rachel, why does the coach pull all the starters? Why is he pulling all the starters three minutes in? And I had to explain that they have line changes in hockey, and the new guys come

over the boards every couple of minutes. That's how hockey works. But there was just such a sort of okay, that's not there. So at the end of that summer the hockey beat opened up at the Washington Post. I had done a little bit stuff that was by accident. It wasn't even what I was supposed to do with because the team the year before I went far and I

got the job. So I did that, and then I covered baseball when they wanted me to cover baseball, and they covered golf when they wanted me to cover golf and a couple of tennis or I covered whatever. What I really love was football and basketball, and so the more I could try to get in that space I wanted to. I like sports where people hit each other, so I thought that was covery football and with basketball for me, just that there's not a bunch of crap

in between you and the game. Right, So I'm watching you guys. You are right in front of me, you are four ft in front of me. You are doing your thing without equipment all over your face. I can see you. I can see sort of the like everything about that drive to the hoop. You experience it in a different way than you do some of these sports

where they're more separation. And the more time I covered the n b A that drew me in both from an athletic point of view of where like I could fucking see Michael Jordan's do what he was doing, but also just personality wise, is like you can get to

know you guys, is real people better? And that was one thing that I don't know, maybe this is a different perspective coming in as a woman, right, is that I felt like I could connect with all of you guys in a way that could make you full people and that I could then turn around and present you as a full person. And I don't know you guys, tell me I covered both of you different times. If I did that for you, but but and if I was able to to do it accurately. But that was

my hope. I mean, I remember, you gave me clarity. You help me get clarity on a lot of everything. Every time we spoke, I was able to get clarity. And then I think it was it was times where I wasn't even the person you was supposed to talk to. But at times things were misunderstood about Man, you still give me opportunity to clear it up. So that's one reason why we always had a good relationship. So once you get into this ESPN space, you worked on what

they gave you. But how did you end up in basketball? I really love the game, so I was always pitching a lot of ideas and a lot of things, and ESPNS changed a lot over the years. Right, we've had the basketball contract for a while, but there have been periods where we did a lot on opening Day and then didn't do a lot till Christmas. Right, and they did a lot of Christmas and then didn't do as much to the playoffs. It wasn't a three six five, right, And I would kind of be filling in those spaces

as being like, what how about we do this? How about we do that again? I think one of the things I tell people who want to get started in my job, and I'm sure you guys are the same way, like a lot of it, is to just fucking work harder than everybody. You have to be the last person in the room. And if you do that, it's not a guarantee that you're going to do great, but you're

probably not going to do great without it. So I was constantly willing to be like I'll take that trip, I'll go, I'll stay an extra day is fine, I'll do you know that kind of thing. And that kind of helped me in the space, and it helped me not only you know, sort of move around and move

up at ESPN, but it helped me. I think again with you guys, with the with the league, people need to see it, right, And I think after a while, especially someone like me who doesn't look like someone who would naturally be covering the NBA for like twelve reasons, right, well, you show up every day, and that is something I think this league does better. The guys in this league

do better than anyone else. They legit reward work and that if you bring come to the table and you're a worker, and you show that like you you actually are invested, that matters. And that's frankly not true in every sport, and it's not true with every business or every group of people, but it matters in the NBA. So that helped me too. Who did you enjoy working with had beside me? Who did you enjoy working with and have a barn with besides of me? Again, well,

it's funny, you know. We started the show and I had been pitching doing a daily NBA show, and again ESPN just wasn't the three sixty five basketball coverage until maybe the last five or six years. But um, we had a great show NBA Tonight that was mostly in season, mostly driven around highlights at like you know, one in the morning, and for me, there was room to add in a daily afternoon kind of this a year round sport, man Like it's it's a year round kind of conversations

and themes and stories and ideas. And I kept pitching this idea and my elevator pitch for the show when I was still was sort of at Turner and trying to figure out do I reap with Turner? Do I come back to ESPN? Was Hey, what if we had a basketball show that was the afternoon just sitting around with your friends talking about who but one of your

friends was Tracy McGrady. And that's like how I kept pitching them because for me, I didn't want it to feel like a television show, because it's kind of what I said at the beginning about me on TV. I don't think I can really run like a television show, very like formal, kind a PowerPoint presentation. Way, I'm not that girl. So for me, I was like, what if we just sat around talking like we talk? And that

was kind of the start of it. So t Mac for me, was the one where he had retired kind of in the space that we were trying to do this, and I felt like, next to Kobe, he was the guy so many of today's players, and I wasn't sure that some of the people outside basketball understood that the way I did, and I just kept saying like, no, no, he's the guy. And some of the people who were who were doing. I mean, they're awesome. They said yes, they gave they gave us the show, they said yes

to Tea Max. So there wasn't obviously not that much convincing because they did it, but there was a little bit of like, oh, well, how is he on TV? And I just kept saying like, I don't know, we haven't we haven't tested him that much. But we don't need to. I said, we can teach him how to be on TV, I can't teach him to be a

Hall of Famer. And that's kind of them, right, that's the attitude we've had with everyone, and that it's completely true, Like you have been one of my favorite people work with, Matt, you know how I feel about you, because for me, the guys on that show and the women on that show, it's kind of like a basketball team. You need the Hall of Famers, but you also need the guys. Guys, you need the people with this perspective or that perspective,

you know. So I just kind of think that we've been so lucky getting a lot of those people on. And look, sometimes now you're off doing your own thing, which is amazing. Don't take him too far away from me for too long. I'm just he's behind. I can't take the grantity, but I trust me, I know. But it's great because you know, people come through, then they cycle out for a little bit, then they come back and it just keeps. It's like you're friend. It's like

sitting around top of basketball with your friends, a great conversation. Well, congratulations, you just hit the five year mark in this past February, So congratulations on that. What is it like for you now, because you know, you started off in journalism and then you're like a real celebrity in this space because basketball has grown through much, don't lie, Rachel. I always see how my comments how much people love you. But I used to tell her the same thing. She's just being modest.

I just had the same thing to blow up. Man, I love Rachel. Rachel got on today. Man, we love look at the hair, Rachel. I was showing you that the whole time. But it was that too. On top of the and the fact that obviously your parents is easy on the eyes, but the fact that in the other reason why you have our trust to is because you know what you're talking about. So it's you're a double edged sword. From that standpoint, but what has that

been like without being modest? Like now you're recognized wherever you go now because you're on TV so much and you know what you're talking about. Well, the answer to all of that is, I'm just old. So if you're around, must be good. She's still here. I haven't doing it for a long time, like that is that is a big part of it. I was super like I went to Northwestern, as I said, so I was in Chicago, in Chicago when Michael Jordan played for the Bulls like that,

that's the thing. And then I can keep going back to that or you know, I cover that was you know, Scotty Pippin's on our show sometimes now I met Scottie Pippen because I was a little during of this, even smaller than I am now, As hard as that is to believe, short human in the Bulls locker room nervously trying to get up the guts to ask him a question at nineteen when I was like stringing for newspaper

trying to like, you know whatever. So I've been around a long enough time that yeah, I think it's good. I've earned that trust with people, and you know, how many basketball games do I probably watch you year, like two hundred, Like how many you know you do that enough? People get that you have. Like we're talking before you on the work, right, you do all the ship, so we'll speak on what kind of homework you almost have

to do. You said you're a fan of it, about the same time I'm a fan, but I get tired of watching that ship, you know what I mean. But you're on TV every single day with like a daytime basketball talk shown. There's nothing like it. So how much preparation? How much time does that take? Because obviously you're a wife, you're a mother, but then you have such a demanding job.

You were telling us before you've started your schedule heading all the way through the Olympics, Like your schedule in the next five months is crazy, So talk to us about how much preparation at time it takes to do what you're doing. Yeah. Well, first of all, I'm so lucky. Right, if my family wasn't set up and if everyone involved in my family, including my little twins, my husband, you couldn't do it without that, right, So that's the first thing.

I could not do this job if it was not set up so that I could this weekend I'm going to Brooklyn Nets game in Brooklyn. Like, you know, I got children. You need to eat someone. We got to feed them. So I'm very very grateful. I'm very lucky about that. And then yeah, it's just kind of constantly being open to having that drift into your day. So whether it's ham, I drive to work, I'm listening to

someone's basketball podcast, I listen to all of smoke. I'm listening to, you know, sort of the conversation that's going on. I'm at work, I'm listening to a bunch of different things and different people. You know. At night, I'm watching at least two or three games, kind of have on

and see what's going on. I read a lot. And part of it is just so that not only can I do the show opens that we do and some of the stuff we do, but I want to be able to be there for you guys, Like when you're talking about something, I don't want you to have to feel that there isn't a safety net of oh if I said this wrong guy's name, like which, she'll be there. She'll she'll kind of set it up so smooth so

it's not a problem later or anything like that. There's like a little course correct we need to do along the way in a discussion. I'm the one who's going to be able to have that answer, So I had to do my homework, and I kind of feel like that's that's why I get to have a seat at that table. I don't want a championship like you guys, So I am played that play basketball, So my value has to come from doing all that work a team

at one time in your life. Again, this is what you see here is the result of a gross spurt good. I was never I put soccer growing up because it's low to the ground. What's it like being able to see former players you work with and kind of their growth in progress? Obviously said you know Tea Mac you had him as an infant When it comes to reporting, Paul Pierce has grown, Perk has turned into a star, and you see me and Jack start at the beginning

and kind of grow. What does that like? Because obviously we all look up to you and got a chance to work with you, So what's that like? It's killer like we don't have people on the show I don't like so first and first almost say that way, but I mean, we're not going to right, because it's not gonna be a good conversation. It's not because I have

oh my god, there's such decision making power. It's more just like everyone knows that be crappy, right, everyone we have on the show or people I'm legit really fond of and want to see get better and try to hopefully support to get better and put you in good positions so when it happens your sites, right, how many players career started on the jump though, that's a couple

of you. Also, I'm a little bit of a stalker when it comes to that ship guys I know would be a good fit for us, like in the last month or two of whatever, the end of what they've already said is going to be the end of their career. I mean I have followed Vince Carter personally around more arenas where he's like, Rachel, I know, and I'm like, I know, but just want to remind you'll be good, You'll be you'll be coming on with us after this.

And it was he used to come on with us, you remember to come out of this sometimes in the playoffs when his teams didn't make it, and I would just be like, all right, well you know what's happening when you retire, but you get nervous. Maybe they'll go somewhere else, maybe they'll do something else. So it's just it's a I call it light stalking. It's it's a light stalking. It's not tampering. McGrady was drawn in because of your knowledge of the game and couldn't turn you down.

How did that feel hearing it again? Te Maxim light stalking. His wife helped me out with that, like it's it's good. I think there have been guys who have come in and I don't know if T Mac was like this. I mean again, guys have covered. I think it helps, right, So y'all dealt with me when you were playing. So I think it helps that you feel tracy. You just feel like you know me. So it's not like a

big sell or anything. But I think there's still like a little bit of and this is earned by the way, why is she talking when I'm the one who played right? I think there's a little bit of that with with not anyone in particular, but with some just overall. And you gotta you gotta again, it's like everything else, you gotta earn it. And I can see sometimes when that flip comes for some of the guys when they're newer

on the show, she knows she's talking about. Okay, you know, that's the one that feels good to answer that question, whether it was a MAC or with anyone else, that feels good because you're the opinion of you guys really matters to me. If you all think that we know the game and we know we're talking about on the show like that, that matters. And I think one of the great early things about the show. And you mentioned our five years and it's been awesome, and honestly, we

had a six month try out with the show. So the fact that it turned into five years pretty killer. You know, it went from a half hour to an hour and went from just in the season to year round, like all that stuff made it feel really good. What meant more to me? And you guys worked with the great Gina and so you know, and she can vouch for this. Um when we had guys around the league say I watch that every day. That's the show where I have you know, coaches, head coaches who will text

me during discussion or during the show. Yeah, and it's it's not usually to say that was wrong in a nice way. It's usually to chime in and be like, oh, you should tell them such as true, well you're right about that or whatever, And that feels that to me is kind of more important frankly than any rating or anything else. Sort of feels like, well, just if I'm doing right by you guys, then that means that we're

doing it right absolutely. You know, take us back to last year, um, going into the bubble and really kind of being the voice of everything that went on there. You know, Jack is leading the biggest, you know, demonstration in the history of our country. The NBA decides to play, you get thrown in the bubble and you're kind of the sole person kind of keeping us in touch on what were the going on in there. Yeah, we were

the only daily show in the bubble. Um. It was all the challenges you'd expect because you're a limited number of people who could even do stuff. So we're sitting around, We got how many cameras you got pointed at you right now to do this show? This fine endeavor one, two, three, four or five six is or nothing out there? We have like one producer with one camera, you know, and then helped by a second producer with a second camera.

With these what these producers did, we had two or three in the bubble at a time, depending that people came in and out. I can't even speak to the acrobatics they had to do for us to put on a television show. So just to get to that was crazy because again it's just a limited number of people the NBA wanted in there, which I get considering every

one person extra person is one more risk. And then to try to be in this crazy environment where we're living in the same place as the players, which is kind of nuts, and trying to sort of keep the right boundaries in terms of COVID and all of you have to be six feet away from people, but you have a conversation with a guy after a game, You want to talk to him, right, So can you do that from eight feet away? Can you? You don't want

to shout this ship. So like trying to like stay within the rules but also do our job was kind of a whole thing, and it just it was It was crazy. And then of course because it was such an unusual situation with coronavirus and everything going on in the country leading up to this huge election. I mean, you kind of couldn't have a crazier confluence of events. And I always say about you guys that that the NBA and the w n b A as a whole

are I mean, correct me if I'm wrong. These are the the most visible African American men and women in this country, right and therefore unfairly at times there is a responsibility and a mantle of having to answer for stuff that, like, I mean, we say it all the time, people being oppressed should not have to answer for that oppression. It is insane the way that mechanic works. But if you don't talk about it, who else is stuff we're

talking about? So it's a catch way two and it put all this weight on these men and women in these two bubbles. And they did it. I mean, they kept the conversation where it should be. When it was time to stop, they stopped where it was time to start. Because they had people's attention. They started and they managed a lot of really calm, plex, nuanced stuff in a way that frankly, like I was so proud every day to be associated with this group of people because it

was hard. Yes, take us back to when the Milwaukee Bucks decided to sit out a game. Well, it was so interesting to me that sort of how it happened, because there was this idea when it first happened, like, oh, they planned this, what do they want? Didn't planet? And then by the way, I shouldn't have had to a planet. It was real. There was a legit and the moment reaction to Okay, we found our breaking point. This is

too much. It is too much, and I'm going to sit down in my place and not be moved because it is too much. And I think getting people to understand that and getting to understand then in the forty eight hours that followed, like people kept saying, well, what do they want to start playing again? It's not about that what we want. By the way, it's like people stop killing people in the street. I don't think that's

happening in the next two days unfortunately. But like I think there was a there was a you'll misunderstanding at the beginning of kind of how it happened that Domino, and even within the bubble, there was some back and

forth between some of the players. Right, Look, you had another team that was warming up on the court at the time, and they had some feelings, right, they were just sort of like why tell us about this because now we look like we don't support Jacob Blake and his family or that like we at least could have done this as a united front or whatever. And I think over time, you know, over those twenty four or forty hours, it came to be an understanding of like, Okay,

this wasn't planned and we excluded you. It's just like in that moment, would not open the door and walk out out of it. Um. There are other players who felt like they were kind of put in a position like once the books don't play, nobody can really play right. You can't sit there and be like, oh, we're going to go out and play because you're not being supportive.

So I think there were some other players that felt like kind of okay, and that tapped into to a moment in the bubble where guys have been there long enough where you just get I mean, I know, I get it. I hear all the criticism, oh millionaires sitting in a fancy Hope hell in Florida, whatever. It is hard when you cannot leave less than one square mile of land, like I would walk, you walk in a circle, walk back in a circle. If you're a runner. You're

literally running in a half semi circle. You're allowed to run in and then back. You'd have to do like twenty or thirty of those just to get a run in. Like, you cannot leave the same four walls. It is not

your home. You're not with your family, and you know, you guys have Paul georgia On, I thought what he said in the middle of the bubble about just sort of that mental health aspect of normally you can take a step away from the game and just you know, kids crawl all over you for two hours and like watch a stupid movie or do whatever. There's just none of that. So whatever was happening on the court is of your existence and then everything going on outside in

the outside world. And I think those two things kind of conspired in that moment for the stoppage, and it just took a minute for everyone to kind of get their breath. But I also think there was a lot accomplished with that was sort of that refocus on voting and sort of even in Wisconsin, the focus on the laws about policing and sort of what people were allowed to do, and there was legislation that was already in the state government that just wasn't getting moved along, and

the players helped shin to line on that. I just I don't think you can look at that as anything but a triumphant moment for the league and the players in terms of again, crazy fucking situation and rising to the occasion in a way that that you know, it wouldn't be fair to expect, but it's pretty awesome that And that was one thing, you know, Jack and I went back and forth on because we literally stood and know that are we not at the ten times we can agree with each other, but we didn't agree from

a standpoint of He thought that they shouldn't play, they should set out and make their protests, and I thought the opposite. I thought there was no they're gonna there's no bigger way to get their message out then to have that NBA logo behind everyone the bush have you guys has either one change or shifted the position and talked about and we talked about it on the show, and we kind of we we came into an understanding

and I understand his point of view. He understood my point of view, you know, I mean, but my thing was, just like you're gonna hear Lebron. You're gonna hear the big names, but do you hear the George Hills? Do you hear Ducks? Please? Do you hear you know, some of the people that aren't superstars but still had amazing things to say. And like I said, individually we're very famous, but together we're you know, our voice travels around the world, and I would be naive to say that it didn't

make a difference. It made a huge difference, you know, But me being so into it, it was hard for me to see that for our head, you know what I mean. But everyone played their part because your ship was needed. Like I said, you say you move that you people meet in the middle ground, Well there's got to be people moving that middle ground to one side or the other. So if you're not moving the middle ground to one side and the other, than the middles

further on the the other side. I do think one thing that we saw the beginning of with through the vote vote vote stuff from the players for the second half of the bubble that I hope continues as we go through because there's another election that's coming just months away. All that stuff is the messaging getting out that it's not just voting for president, and you and I talked about this on the air Off the air a bunch.

Most of what affects our lives local, right, It's who's running the school board, who's running the police force, what resources are going where, where the food is coming to? Who like all of that stuff? What what businesses are zoned for what part of town? Because there's been all kinds of you know, as you know, all kinds of redistricting, all kinds of Oh no, that's so this kind of zone, that kind of zone. I wonder what neighborhood do you put those zones in. It's just such a crazy, random,

so random. And I think some of the the players messaging on that, because I heard players talking about it, is the first time I've heard sort of at a national level, people that all the all these kids and communities look up to talking about that. And I think that's a real You've got to see it and hear

it to believe it. You've personally been someone who has kind of stepped out on a lamb, considering, you know, your platform of ESPN, but talked about other issues outside of sports, and obviously we're talking about social justice now, but you know, having friends of the program. Carrie and Jamie were very outspoke, can you know, and and sometimes

ran into some trouble. You've been on right there as well, and talking about stuff outside of sports, but affects us as players still in our communities and who we can you know where we came from? So where did that courage come from? Because, like I said, ESPN hasn't always been as lenient as they are now, and I think

you've kind of helped change that narrative. Well, it's two things, right, and we all know the older you get, the more you're just comfortable with who you are and what you think, right, So there's some of that. I also, really, in my heart believe that a lot of these issues are not political. I understand that there are people who want to make them political, but a lot of this stuff is human rights issues and that should be okay to talk about.

It's not about one side or the other. We can differ politically and how we want to solve these problems. It can't be political to just acknowledge that these fucking problems exist. So since I think that is the case, I don't feel like I'm stepping out politically. I feel I am talking about things that are just real and then we can argue over the politics of how to fix them. Um. There's an interesting interview with Barack Obama after Donald Trump was elected, and I think it was

I'm gonna get this wrong. It was the New York Times, it was a New Yorker, it was someone it was it was Brock's Obama's first big interview after Hillary Clinton lost and turning over the White House to Donald Trump. And he said, the thing that frustrates me the most is it used to be like, hey, global warming is happening,

or the environment. You know, we got to address this, and there was a lot of fighting over the e p A and like how we would solve the problem that they were small and all these cities, and then like our air and water was getting polluted and it was poisoning children, and that we had like nuclear reactor pollution and all that. There's a lot of argument over

how to fix that. There was an argument about the fact it needed to be fixed, and he pointed out that now there's an argument about whether it the problem even exists at all. So for me, like that has been something that I don't feel like I'm stepping out on a limb too much because to me, I actually believe it is not political. And then some of it comes to of you sit there and you play it

out and then like great. I have this sentence in my head always of like, Okay, what's the newspaper headline if I get suspended Rachel Nichols suspended from ESPN four And then it's like okay, I'm okay, right. So I really came out hard when the NBA was considered. I had its All Star game schedule for Charlotte, and there were some laws passed in Charlotte that I just felt were serious civil rights issues. I mean, this was lunch counters.

I know that there was again politics. There was a side of the issue that tried to dubbed it the bathroom bill or the bathroom law that was not the heart of the law. The heart of the law was that businesses, including restaurants, including hotels, hospitality, could turn someone

away for being gay. And they were going to hold an All Star game with an openly gay president of a team the Golden State Warriors, who was the reigning dynasty at the time, who could have come to town and been told I'm sorry you can't stay at the team hotel because we have this law. Now, like that's

not okay. And I remember it was kind of early in the jump and talking to one of the executi producer, Kevin Wild's, who worked with us on the show then, and he was so great at being supportive, and I just kind of felt like, Okay, I'm gonna really go out here, and if someone calls me and says, I'm sorry, I'm taking you off the air for a week, I'm okay with that headline, you know what I mean. And that's kind of where for the right reason. I mean,

we were just together. We broke because it came across the wire as we were working the All start the MLB deciding to move the All Star Game out of Atlanta, you know. And I think it's great that that that sports is kind of because it's it's it's always a touchy subject and people are scared to talk about human rights by the end of the the day racism, you know what I mean. So it's always very touching. Like you said, they'll turn it into political talk, but at the end

of the day, it's basic human rights, you know. And I think it's beautiful that you're starting to see, especially MLB, that's America's past time. You know what I mean for them to take a step and say, hey, you know what you're doing in Georgia's not right, We're gonna move our business. To me, it's just like I kind of feel like a change of amongst us. I thought that the MLB, MLB did that. You and I were talking

before the show, that Delta is doing it. Um, these are not businesses, as you say, that are so traditionally in support of some of the stuff that the NBA, let's say, or even the NFL players are have been in support of. And they really stepped out there and

did it. And it is fascinating to me again. And you know, look, voting laws are more political by their nature, but isn't I mean, it's crazy to me that people who in one hand are waving an American flag are trying to limit what makes America America, which is democracy. It's just sort of how how do we get here? And it's a shame that we have to use the word courageous when talking about someone coming out against that

limitation of democracy. But I guess it is now and I'm I'm psyched that that we're seeing people do it do it. How do you see the progression of sports journalism when it pertains to women compared to where you first came in. So definitely, the couple generations before me were the ones that had like the really shitty time.

And I mean, there's a story about a woman who was the bright baseball be writer for a long time and she's amazing and worked her ass off, and baseball is a tough place to be breaking into and we're talking thirty or forty years ago, and one of the players kept saying, she's like a little rat in the locker room, and then they sent her a fucking rat in a box to open. Like there's all the stories about you know, guys inappropriate doing things, saying things in

locker rooms, all that ship. So the women before me had to deal with the brunt of that. By the time I came in, it was not that bad. It was certainly not as good as it is now, which is you know, it's it's nice that we're seeing progress. Um, I don't think we had women hosting sports shows in the same way we do now. I mean I have to go back and look, I don't wanna if someone was doing it. I don't want to give light on their legacy, but in general it was not the thing

that we saw. So being able to make that progress feels good. I think now the line is and I think it's the same thing with race. I see my friends deal with is the criticisms aren't overtly about race or gender, but you know that the standards different, right, you know that, like they're picking it the black guys, they're picking it the women. They're especially picking up women, picking at women of color in a way that they just aren't doing with some of the people that they

are quote more used to or more comfortable with. And I think that's kind of the next hurdle because in some ways that's more insidious, it's harder to fight against. Like if I've had times where earlier in my career, I've had people say you can't go to the postgame locker room, you can't go to the press conference, And I will say to that security guard, well, here's my credential. You know I always have. I always have to have, Like even now, I always have to be the one

to have my credential. It's not enough that I'm running around how my credential here I am, and I've had more than one had guys say to me one time in the hallway, oh, I'm sorry, honey, the anthem singer can't be back here or even like people, you know, show them a credential with the Amy Span or before that with the Washington Post and say, um, I look at you. You You can't go where the boys are, but boys are changing in there, and you're just like, that's

not how this is set up. So that stuff is in some ways easier to deal with and battle against because you just get the right person in the right place and you just deal with it. Right. It's the more sort of the little chipping away. And you mentioned Carrier Jamal earlier. Jamal is a great example all kinds of criticisms of her that weren't overtly about her being a woman or overtly about race. But come on, we know why they're picking on her. Kamala Harris and the debate.

She's shrill, she's making faces. That's all the cold for. We don't want a black woman out there, and that I think that's the thing that the women in my industry are sort of now that that's a level we're fighting against but that's true for everyone. You know. How do you feel being in a spotlight and being an example for young women that want to be in this space,

How do you feel like being the standard in the blueprint? Well, I mean, I hope that I can be a good example when I'm you know, every day when I'm out there, there's so many that that's kind of the second half of that sentence is there's so there's We're lucky, there's so many women just at U sbm but even across the board, Um, so I don't. No one has to carry that weight on their own, and that is that

is a relief. And as they say, different from the women who were maybe a generation before me, where a lot of them they were not the only one in the room. Sometimes they were the only woman in the room all the time. And now I'm still the only woman in the room sometimes, but it's not all the time, and that makes a huge difference. But I hope that I can show people and young women that they have the room to succeed, but also the room to screw

up again. It's why every time on the jump when we do stupid ship, I'll be like, oh God, this fell apart, and that's not the video that's supposed to run. Now, I should have said that, I said, this is what I've meant to say, or whatever, because I do think when you are a minority in this space, whether it is race or gender or whatever it is, you feel like you have to be perfect, right, And there's that pressure. I need to be perfect because you're representing everyone and

if you mess it up. I remember really clearly when I was covering more NFL for ESPN. I was the reporter on site at some football game and the guy's NFL Live or Countdown or whoever it was. We're talking and Michael Irvin kept talking about al Gore, al Gore, al Gore, al Gore, and it just didn't I was like, no, Frank or Frank Gore's who he was talking about. But he just kept slipping and saying the wrong name. And it was fun. It was funny, It was fine, It

was totally fine. If I I do remember though, being listening with my FB waiting for my turn to talk, and thinking if I said that, I would be probably done. I was still young enough and new enough that, like, you know whatever, So you do feel that pressure of I have to be perfect, and I am so far from perfect that I hope that that kind of gives a little people some room. And also, like I do impress upon young women all the time and young men people who come to me for advice, like you just

gotta do the work. It's not going to just be there for you. What's what's the chances of Michael Irvine saying al Gore, do you get the connection? I do? Do you not? The show? What are your thoughts on this current NBA season? Obviously the pandemic hit last year, we go into a bubble, you experienced that short offseason, late start All Star Game, Like, what is your thought just on covering the basketball for long enough time just to kind of see where the NBA is right now? Well,

there's so much stuff going on right now. That's historic, right, quote unquote. We never had a seasonally, we never had a bubble like this. We never had a SEMNY two games season before. I don't know what's going to look like in the playoffs. You know, we never had COVID test before pandemic, So exactly the content I've been paying attention, by the way, when you guys have been given these stats and I just want to point out Stacks winning

so undefeated, baby, Um, surprising with that nose. I'm surprised anything. A couple of creatips of them. You can get that basket all over anything. So that's I mean, that feels special right to be doing something that's never happened before.

But I'm also and we've talked about this a little bit, Um, I want Stacks take So every day I say out of my mouth at some point during the show these days, is hey, that's a new NBA record, or that's a rookie record, or that's such and such record we have had because of a lot of just different conspiring events like this huge scoring inflation over the last couple of years, to the point where look, whatever day this errors, and

you guys look it up on your stats. Just excuse me if this is changed by one point to oh degrees. But as I sit here, Um, nine of the top ten like highest producing, most efficient offenses have been offenses in the last two years in the history of the NBA. Does that that we've had suddenly like the second coming of the best NBA players ever in this last two seasons. No, it just means the teams that aren't playing defense the same way. The rules are different, the pandemic changes everything.

You don't have practiced time, so therefore you can't like

play solid defense all that ship. So part of what I'm trying to navigate right now in this unprecedented season is how do I talk about this right because we talked about, oh, this guy, I don't know if there's Anthony Edwards who had a record the other night where more points as a rookie than anyone but Lebron and k D. And I'm like, well, does that mean that he's in the Lebron and k D conversation or doesn't just mean that there's more points available right now, I

don't have to talk about that a little bit take on it. I would say he has the upside to be in that conversation. He's headed in that direction. That's all I could say. I wouldn't put him in there, but overall with inflated numbers, because when we talked to Web the other day and he didn't say it, but Web would kill in this area, you know. But you've got the players now saying the game is softer. Yeah yeah,

So so when we say it, we've being disrespectful. We hate but when the players did it is actually playing say the game it's all you know, they agree with it, but the game is definitely this is a scoring game now point blank. I mean, would you agree with scoring is would continue to help the game grow? Well? I do think that like the people it brought his kids brings kids in. I have, like we're the twin club. You'd see Webb on the other day. He's in the twin clubs. So you know, you are a twin in

so many ways. I am great. Um. If not biologically then you know in spirit. Um. But it's funny. I have young twins. We moved here when they were like four and a half and it was in the height of Warriors Mania, and you know, their mommy had the games on at night all the time, and we had West Coast timing, right, so we had Steph Carey and whatever. And my kids fell in love with Steph at five years old, these two little girls like and Clay and the whole nine and and my daughter would say, oh,

Steph's just like me. He's small, and I would say, no, you're four. He's actually six ft two. But her she felt like that. My other, my other, my other daughter loves Draymond. She just thinks he's the best, and she wants to play win on her basketball team. She wants to play defense like Draymond and all of that. And I watched that team bring them in in a way.

If they had maybe been little kids in the arrow where I was covering you, I'm not sure Pacers Spurs game, they would have like really attached to the end in that same way. So I do think it helps. I've watched it happen in my own house. I don't know how your twins are all that same thing. I mean, I think, like I said, I think it comes to a point. And if you even talk about it from like what we do, I would much rather talk about highlights scoring than a defense. You know what I mean?

Because I mean because I know that's what as a purest I would when mine talking about. But I know that the crowd of our fans want to see three point They want to see Step shooting from half, Dame shooting from half. They want to see Lebron Dunky like, that's what they want to see. They don't want to see that old school battle. I mean, when Damee pulls up, it's great. There's no arguing about that. You know exactly who has impressed you most team and players? Uh, you

know what I'm impressed by. I'm this a little cop out answer, but it's just the truth. Like the under twenty five crowd in the NBA right now are so fucking together, like the donatonvisions of the world and like all that stuff, like self possessed and like understanding the game. And I don't even mean basketball, I mean like the big game better than certainly I did at that age.

But I think even the future the past generations did and they have the benefit, right, They've grown up with social media, they've grown up with like kind of perspective, they've grown up with more new ideas like at them earlier,

so they've been able to internalize that ship. But like I've I've been constantly kind of surprised that, like, wait, this kid's twenty three, like this kid is twenty four, and just sort of the possession self possession and sort of the way that they have been able to both try. It's still a lot of these guys are still trying to make their name in the game, but not afraid to put themselves their brand there. You know, everything on the line for what's important. And that's kind of really

that that's stuck with me. I think it's a different way from when we came in. I mean, even what the conversations that happened, Like the business of basketball was never even across thought when we first came in. It's chains, it's cars, it's women, it's this system material things. But now the whole narrative of change, it's what are you investing in? Are you in bitcoin? Are you in this and you and that? What social justice issue are you

standing behind? And like you said, guys aren't afraid to put there because I mean back when we say that's brand suicide, you know what I mean? You stay. If Jack stands up for what he stood up for for Georgie back in the day, who knows what would have happened,

you know what I mean. So it's just a different time. Obviously, Well the money has changed, right, so you're not as dependent on the NBA specific paycheck in the same way you've gotten the money you've already made in your career, which is more earlier, So you can risk a little more earlier your brand paycheck from your shoes, from your sponsors,

stuff like that. Is different and bigger, so you can step out, and brands and sponsors have changed because they now have to answer to a more educated consumer base that cares about this stuff. I love the guys that Nike. I don't know if they would have stood behind Calin Kaepernick twenty years ago, but they knew when they did it in the last few years. Not only was it in terms of the belief system of the people who worked there, it was also a good business decision. So

that all has changed a little bit too. So I had a question for you guys about basketball. I mentioned this to you the other day. If I'm stepping out, we're talking about it. But I've been like super trying to figure this out. So we've been talking about James Harden right and quote forcing his way out of Houston. What do you guys think is the right move for players who are in a system where they get drafted right,

because the way America, this is not the NBA. American professional sports work this way, right, they work this way overseas. Two you get drafted, it's a it's a monopoly, and they get to tell you where they go. You don't, you know, just go and sale. I'd like to live

in Chicago. Um, you're under these contracts where they literally use the words in front offices like oh, we have control of that player's contract or we are control that player for X number of years or that kind of thing, And it's written into the system that you sign a contract, but the other side signs too for X number of years and then they can turn around within a certain number of months and trade you. Your kids don't go to that school anymore, like they shift your life, and

that mechanism is not set up for players. And I don't actually know the answer because there can't be an m b A if everybody can just pick where they start out to go, because frankly, like there's a lot of like Jack, you probably would have picked the pacers, right, but but it turned out you know, like ha been a Hall of Nights every night, but you had great success there, you know what I mean, Like we can't we can't just sort of I get why the system

isn't set up to just have everybody all the time, But what do you do because you have a thing this year And this came from our discussion about James Harden. We've been talking about like, Okay, is he gonna get quote penalized by m VP voters because of what happened in Houston at the beginning of the year. And I just don't know what a player is supposed to do. What are you going to think of players should do? Young Milcle. I think for the most part, James did

what I don't think he could do. And because like when teams feel like you have no more value, they put you at the end of the bench. They demean you. It might not be in the media, but they have their little own fraternity of owners and managers, but they talk behind closed doors and if they both agree that you not in any good no more, they'll put you at the end of the bench like they try to

do mellow. So my, my whole thing with James, I just felt like, you know, when you have a black coach like stave Side was getting a shot help him look good. But at the same time, I understand James too wanted to win and if they're not gonna move him him, then he has to force his way out because the same way he can force his way out, they can make him look bad to force him to

stay there. So it's a tough situation, but the same way the teams can make you look bad, you should be able to way to make you a littself look good and speak on getting yourself out of there. But how do you do that without getting a label? Because that's what we're talking about, Like it is James wrong for wanting to get out? He's not wrong. But it's gonna be opinions either way, because you're gonna have fans

that say, we've been loyal to this whole time. But then it's gonna be it's gonna be players like us that understand how you want to win. He don't want to finish his career like Charles Barkley. He want to be in a position to win the championship. So we understand it, but it's always the fans that's in their feelings that's been like, well, you should stay with us, you owe us this, and really he don't owe you anything. Well, then,

but then we're asking too. I mean, because to me, if we're talking about basketball with Lebron getting hurt and and be getting hurt hardened to me, if it's not Joker, it's hardened to win m VP. But we were talking about what will some some voters hold it against hardened his issues he had getting out of Houston. I wouldn't. I wouldn't say that because how do how does that affect what he's doing on the court. He went there

and immensely immediately made an impact. He's playing basketball, and to me, and I have to go against you'all, I would say he is the m v P, him and Kyrie, I would give him co MVP because what they've been able to do immediately. Most teams, when you bring in stars like that, it takes a year or two. Then then it even happens where one of the stars have

to go because they didn't work out, you know. So the way they've been able to jail and bring all this together, you gotta give all the credit to James bro you have to. And I don't think him getting asking to leave should be a knock on anything he's able to do this season. I agree. I thought Harden was you know, to me, he's definitely worked his way to the top of the m v P conversation. But to me it's not. It's like, yes, I think in that m VP conversation, By the way, it's gonna keep going.

And I'm still have a third of the season and I always say that, Like, how am I supposed to make a decision? Now, asked me a month ago. I didn't know Lebron was gonna get hurt. I didn't know when b was gonna get hurt. So like, how would I have like if I come out and said this is what I'm voting for, Like I would have looked a because I wouldn't have known that him, joyl and Bee was gonna end up you know, hurt or whatever.

So I'm not making an m v P case for anyone at the moment, but it has brought up to me sort of one of these new frontiers of discussion with the m b A of what do we owe each other in terms of these contracts? What are the players like, what what vehicles do they have? Like I think player empowerment as an expression has been a little overused at this point, but like where is the line and what is fair? But also creates a functioning MBA because it is the business that everybody makes money off

of it. If the league collapse, that would be a problem too. So it's kind of figuring out where the ground is and James situation. No matter which side of the argument you fall on whether somebody comes out in this final third, and Nikolaok is on fire and he's clearly the m v P doesn't really matter to this conversation.

I just more mean, like, it's interesting to me because it's sort of the one place where we've accepted free agency and moving around in a way we didn't used to in the league, and like that idea of loyalty kind of doesn't isn't used to shame players anymore, which is really what it was for. And sometimes but that one frontier is something where I don't know what the

answer is and I'm kind of curious. The question is brought up being a voter yourself, and we've discussed this on the show as well, what is it gonna take to see the whole instead of just being a regular season m v P, just a whole body m VP. Because yeah, obviously Janice is back to back and he struggled in the playoffs, that hasn't been able to get his team to that next level. When I picture m VPS, I'm picturing at the end of the game, it's a guy you can go to to get your team a win,

you know what I mean. So there's obviously and I'm not the only one that things like that, but you know you as a voter, you know, Matt, we understand that. But it's the regular season. What would it take or why doesn't it look at the whole entire season? So that might of my big things over the years of the show, and the poor guys in the NBA office have heard this for me way too often. Um award reform, right,

That's what I keep saying. We need some reward reform because the NBA has not made any kind of major change to its awards in so many years, and every other American pro sports league, the major ones, have all since then. So the NBA, which is usually so far ahead of the other league's just isn't in this category.

And I get the tradition and all of that, and then when you make a change that affects the value quote unquote of other people's m vps or things in the past, But I just think the league has been so great about if something isn't right, like, let's not worry about how it looks, let's just fix it. And something that's not right to me is like most Valuable Player is not what we're really awarding right now? What we're really awarding is who's had the best statistical regular season.

That's how that award has been sort of litigated and voted on. And partly that's the director we get from the NBA. It's only regular season. Here's the stats. It's partly what stats are available to us. Right. It used to be just kind of basic stats and offense and defense. Now we've got like hardcore offensive stats. We have a less defensive stats. We've got no stats for leadership. We got no stats for what someone says in the huddle or the judgment someone makes in like a key moment

or decision. We've got clutch stats, but those don't always tell the whole story or anything. So because those statistics have taken on a greater part of how people analyze the game, and because the voters are being told it's only regular season, the m v P at the moment is who had the best statistical regular season. That is what we would call it. It's clunky, but that is what it actually is. I'd like to see the m v P before the m v P, who's a most

valuable guy on this team in this league? We don't know who it is. Every heere and and sometimes it's debatable, like there was a point where it looked like Katie was going to rest that away from Laan, right, and then it gets hurt like like that can be a really interesting discussion. It's not always the same guy all the time, right, I mean there's a time where Kobe and like like You've had these changing in the guard moments.

That could be fascinating if we gave an award for this, and it would also identify it's that I think Bill Simmons made made the point like the Aliens came down and you had to win one basketball game and pick one guy to lead your team the probably exactly we all we all know who it is. Well, I mean, originally that guy in space jam was Michael Jordan's mich

Jordan should have one more MVPs. Like, I just think that that that high test or whatever you wanna call it, who is legit the most valuable guy in the league. The problem is the awards aren't set up right, and so it puts voters like me in kind of a crabby position. I know who the best guy in the league is, but I look at his numbers and during the regular season for reasons that could be that, as some of these guys age, it's not smart for them

to go all out in the regular season. They would be doing their team a disservice if they chase stats in the regular season. But because of that, they're penalized and voting, and even me, as a voter, I have to say, Okay, well, like that's not what I'm being asked to vote on. So I just I would love to see us as an NBA lee. As a league, follow what the NFL does, follow what the Major League Baseball does. They give award the NHL, they give awards

for scoring. They give awards for like best offensive player or best season or something like that. And it differs in every league. But you know the difference. And there are so many years where a guy like Janice could have won best season but someone else until he proved that he could be the guy to lead his team to a championship. It's hard to being v paying you're shooting a ball from the free throw line. Fam. He

doesn't love being he doesn't He wants to win. He knows the bigger goal for him as the champion, get his team over the hump, right, Steven, know what you think yeah, but you can't be shooting the balls. It's free throw line. Fam. It's just hard for me to say, you're the best player in the league and you're shooting oxygen from the line. We asked Kobe at what he said,

I've never done it with my left hands. Come on, man, all right, um, you've been apart along the ride for Lebron's journey from the beginning, high school too, where he's at just putting this past championship, the highs, the lows. What have you seen the most as maturity goes on and off the court. What's cool? First of all, to have a front row seat to someone's life. From I met Lebron when he was a senior in high school.

We could be talking about someone who's a plumber if I met someone when they were a senior in high school, and then all the way through age thirty six, had this front row seat and being able to be there when they did the thing they were doing and watch them as they had kids or a family or like sort of had a social justice sort of figuring out how they could could do that, you know, grew in terms of he started goddamn school, Like, I mean, the whole thing that could be anyone, it would have been

a fascinating thing. And the fact that it was someone who has done all this stuff this is has been that has been a cool thing for me. And I did start in Chicago of watching Michael Wilbon do that with Michael Thordan, right, and kind of tagging along to

a lot of the stuff. And then you know, I happened to work in Washington, d C. When Jordan came to Washington, d C. And Michael Bon was obviously working with me then so again got to tag along to a lot of sort of that experience watching someone else do it, having that front row seat and getting to have done that with Lebron and then in turn as the younger guys come in, starting to have that with

them too, has been really cool. I mean, as someone whose job it is to sort of interpret what I see and kind of create these stories, you can't ask for anything more than that. It's been pretty awesome. Thoughts on how the league and Adam self has how that the

the NASH has passed events. I mean, look, I don't think you can argue like it's been an overall huge success, right, The fact that they got a league playing and they were able to navigate through a global pandemic and keep everyone safe and nobody has had, you know, knock on every surface near me because we're not out of this yet, but no one has had serious health problems while you are trying to move people around the country in groups

and a contact sport where everyone speats all over each other. There's no easy thing. Have there been little things along the way that they may have wanted to do better? You know now that the hindsight they would tell you that, so so sure, but you know, it's kind of like I say, like, no one's perfect people. You just got to do the best you can. And I think they've made really good choices all at the time. Thoughts on

the play in format because I absolutely love it. I love it too, I know a lot of people don't. I think it's awesome. It was really fun in the bubble and it just gives everybody a little bit more skin in the game. But in a way that doesn't feel like it's going to mess with the integrity of who wins, Like I don't think it's going to make it the plan tournament is going to have no effect on who wins the NBA title. I don't think whoever makes it into the playoff game is gonna win. We've

never had an eight seed win a title before. Came close a little bit with Patrick Ewing, but never didn't happen. Um, And I certainly don't think a play in team is my guests. I mean, who knows someone's now going to do it? And does show this clip I'm looking at the I'm sorry, I doubt you who I don't even know, and I don't even know what team this is, but clearly I doubted you, and you can use that as motivation.

I mean, if the Lakers slide, you know what a d and braun if they happen to slide, like to me, if they slide and get into a plain situation, as long as they're healthy, I still think they're the best team in the Western you know, outside of them, No, I think I think that's true. But that's the case of the plan in I just don't think the Plan is going to have a team that doesn't deserve it. I guess that's what I should say, because like in a single elimination thing, um, in that first game or

two of the actual plan tournament, anyone can win. But that team then have to go into the playoffs. Right then you have to go into seven games series. So I just don't think you're going to get some outlier team that shouldn't be there win. So I I should, that's a good point. I should. I should have seen I messed up. I should. I got you, you got me? Um but but but yeah, I just think that it's it's only fun. Do you How do you feel about Jack? I just feel like it's an interestant twist, you know.

I like the old school way you are. You gotta earn your way in. I don't like all this other ship. You know, top eight everybody else go home, get on that boat early one to three cancoom and uh, you know, everybody else that earned it get in there. I like it because I think it starts that the energy for the playoffs a little bit sooner. And it's a cool format. You know, seven plays eight or yeah, seven place eight and seven. The winner gets seven and then eight the

winner the loser. The loser of the seven eight battle plays the winner and that's yeah, so and yeah, I just think it's great energy. I just think it gives the playoffs a jump star And like you said, something different. I mean I get tradition, but like we said, I mean, we're just a different time now, so why not try something different. I think something that they did that worked well in the bubble. Yeah, they're continuing. I ain't even to fight for the eight seed. Don't get them excited.

I'm already here what I got to play. And by the way, the Raptors right this year, it depends on who you are. We've been sorry all you are. Rachel took a land in this eight spot. We don't deserve it.

The Raptors this year at the trade deadline. This is a team that is two years removed from winning a title, playing in a state they don't even live in, like not even front of their fans, all this stuff, and they basically decided, you know what, we're going to try to keep our core, but we're not going to like go all out to win a playing game. We don't have to. Our fans don't expect that. They're not going to be happy with, oh, we want to play a

game two years ago. So for teams like that, for teams like the Warriors, I get draymm being like I'm not excited, but you know what we had Darren Fox on the show the other day, he'd like to play, you know, and I get that too. That's a good experience for him. But even if you wouldn't be exciting, even though Draymond like a side when the ball goes up for you and the ball goes of him, and

you guys are gonna play your asses. True, so, but I like moground playing for championships not a playing game. But I still get it. Who do you have in the finals? I don't predict. But here's why I swear it's not just a cop out. Here's what I love about sports and what really got me when you guys are asking at the very beginning about why you know how I grew up to do this is I love superhero movies, right, I love comic book movies. I love

the whole thing. I'm unusually excited to a point where people are concerned about me about Star Wars movies or things like that. But I do know in the end who's gonna win. I sit down an adventurous movie, you know who's winning the fucking Avengers. You know. I sit down in Star Wars movie, I know which side is gonna win. When I go to a basketball game. I don't know who Spider Man is and I don't know who the villain is. I gotta wait till the end to find out who the winner is, who the guy

I'm supposed to be rooting for is. That is so essential to me about why I love this game, that I fight so hard. We don't do a ton of picks on our show, as you guys both know. We do some because the players like it, but like I don't like. I am hoping to be surprised by who was in the finals this year because that will make it so much more. She's got Superman versus Captain exact Captain America. You recently did an interview with Wan to Skanell Anderson, and he was just in awe with the

fact that he got interviewed by you. It wasn't it was a press question, was right question. It was like when you hear younger players and newer players. I mean, I think obviously it goes back to what we're saying at the beginning, like it's a sign of respect, Like people look respect you and look up at But how does that make you feel without being all modest Well, I mean, look again, it's I'm sorde of that. Here's the thing it makes me feel that it is not

modesty because it's me saying, hey, I did this. Is that it makes me feel like the work right, That's what it makes me feel like. It doesn't mean oh, man, I know everything, or oh I'm a big deal with these guys, because that goes away. And you know, you guys, you're not gonna take no credit from from me being where well, yeah for you being No, I'm not taking

any credit for you. You've done this all yourself. Yeah, but you My first opportunity was with you, my first opportunity, and I knew how good you could be, and I knew who you were as a person, and I give you credit for it. I love what you used to wear though your flannels, with your gold chains hanging out. I was weak. I was weak. It was weeks. Sometimes I came back with the SUSI I got tiddy. I talked about me, so I came back with the suits. I used to see. I was like one of my homeboys.

That might even my brother, you know, Jack's on this new ESPN show with like a boyz in the hood. Flannels goes back to what we wanted to show to be at the front. Was h chill who you you great? To you that you're definitely good at that changing speeds a little bit. You had an amazing sit down with Mac and Kobe at the Mamba Academy. Made me cry, that's last. It's okay talk to us just about what that interview on what you took from them, because their

journeys were very similar coming up together. How special was that interview for you? Yeah? I meant allowed to me because I had covered the thick of them competing against each other, so I knew what that really. I knew all the nuance of that relationship and what it was and how tight they had been at the beginning, and then how they had some separation, not because anyone did anything wrong and there was no beef, but just like

as competitors and you grow apart and everything. And I knew too from covering them both or haven't been friendly and working with them both post career, that they weren't really in touch in that close way. They were good again,

they were totally good with each other. I don't even given or implying anything else, but they just you know, life, life is afraid and I knew I could see in the moment, the minute we brought them back to together, just that all that energy was like just like that when they were like twenty years old, and it was just everything. And then what was pretty awesome after that was seeing in the year that followed, unfortunately that's all

we had. It was it was really less than a year before he died, but that they really got close again. And I think it was having that that sort of moment, a reason to be together, to have a two hour conversation, and then from that it became like, oh, hey, my kids in this au jury right your kids saying out at the eighth Churaman. They're rooting for each other's kids

and games and ship and talking. And that felt, especially now knowing what we know about the time that Kobe had left, like that felt really nice to me that in some tiny way, like just that circumstance helped bring them again, like not because there was any beat, but just back together into each other's circle again in a way that I think was really special. Um and Kobe

for me and I've talked about this. Um I was starting out when Kobe was starting out, and it was hard sometimes people just you know, I'm very short, I'm very girl, I'm by all the stuff um and didn't want to talk to me about stuff, didn't want him around, didn't take me seriously, you know, all the stuff. That's just it's just harder. It's harder when you're starting. It's

hard to get people to trust you. One of the early teams I covered the code, the captain of the team and the general manager of the team would not answer a single question of mine. They would just say next question because they I was the first woman to cover them. They did not want a woman be writer, and they thought if they just didn't give me information or access that I would just fail and not do well and then shockingly, there'll be a man next time.

So that that was some of the early stuff you have to deal with her I had to deal with. And Kobe's rookie year, and you guys know this from knowing him. It was not a picnic. You know, there were a lot of people who did not want him there. This kid from high school. I thought he could do everything that we turned out he could do. But at that point knew for sure he could do. There was

a lot of resistance on an older Lakers team. There was stupid stuff like because Kobe was there and he was under twenty one, they couldn't have beer in the locker room anymore. I mean just like from the little to the big, you know, and he comes in like a bowl in the china shop. So all of that. So we really that rookie year. Um I came out to l A to do a story on him, and it started as an interview and we just ended up.

I remember, like I can tell you exactly whe we were sitting on a bench, like you know, after long and it's like one of those time lapses were like the end of practice ends around you and then everybody slowly leaves and like the lights didn't actually go out, but that sort of felt like and just talking and talking about what it felt like to be the kid that nobody wanted there and kind of had that early bond of that and then kind of to watch what

he became. And in my tiny, microscopically smaller way, what I got to become was something that that was very special throughout twenty years. Again a front row seat to his life and a bomb we had and conversations we'd have, and to be able to have had that moment with him and Mac so soon close to the end. It's not enough, It's never early enough, but it felt like a pretty good thing to have gotten in you and I.

I mean that's when he passed. Obviously, the coverage we did on the jump was was NonStop and wasn't easy, but it was. I just found it was so cool to get everyone's different story of Kobe, you know, I mean, because everyone had this perception mamba asshole, this isn't that, but if he lets you in, you got to see how especially well so to be able to hear everyone share their different Kobe's story and how he affected him

and realized how many people he affected. Obviously, I didn't want it to happen, and once it did happen, I mean, I guess you know the way you celebrate life was being able to hear all these amazing stories from you know, this amazing person. So that was a tough, tough, tough time, very tough times, tough journey and another example to people by the way that like you can grow and learners person like what you do in your life doesn't have to be the end of your story and be a

better person afterward. And I think that's something that I would that, you know, talking about messages from like, no one's story ends. There's no there's no period at the end. I mean obviously death, but even then, you know Kobe has lived on since then. So you gotta keep going and keep getting better every day. You have the honor of telling Paul Pierce and Chris Bosh they were finalists for the NBA Hall of Fame. How was that? That

was really fun. We did it first with Max when he had actually did a show from the Hall of Fame show from the Hall of Fame when he was inducted. But back then there wasn't like now, there's a little bit of a procedure where it's sort of like the finalist announced on this day and this day, and people even if they don't know what's coming on that day on that show, which Paul Pierce and Chris Bosh we got to tell on the show that day they had

no idea. I had to have this whole plan with Chris's very kind wife, who was I was like, can you get him in front of a phone where he can face time at X time, but don't tell why? And here's you know, that kind of thing, um. But with Tacy, like there was no I mean, it was just completely He came in one day and it was he didn't even know he was eligible because they had changed the eligibility rules like within that year about the number of years you had to be off. So for him,

it was just it was totally. It was emotional. It was emotional to being with that. A little less so with these guys because they kind of knew it was again not coming on that day, but knew it was coming. In general, it feels so special though, I mean, the Hall of Fame, it's a it's it's just sort of that thing and that that I don't lose that ever, Like what a big deal that is to guys. Every interview you do is obviously different. Who is your most

memorable and why? I'm gonna give you like quick hit list of someone's and why, And I'm being a terrible person. I'm not picking just one, but whatever, al Right. I interviewed Tiger Woods in Turkey and an airplane hangar after he hit golf balls across a bridge in Istanbul that went from one continent to the other. That was weird, definitely, um, something I have never done again yep, yeah, a plane hangar,

you can drop out of continent. Okay. And here's a guy who, by the way, who would show up at Orlando Magic games all the time. And yet when I was like, Hey, I really want to do this interview. We get a bunch of stuff going on in his life, a bunch to talk about. They were like, well, can you fly to Turkey? And I was like, okay, but I live really close to where he would Okay, there

you go. Um. I got to interview Serena Williams a bit, especially early in her career, and having covered tennis at a time when Venus and Serena came on and then really getting into it and talking to them about everything that they fought through and faced is something that is always going to be super special to me. And those are interviews I'm gonna always really be so grateful to

have gotten to do. And Um, in basketball, I grew up thinking Michael Jordan's was Michael fucking Jordan's And the fact that in college I got to like sit there behind a notebook and he occasionally spoke to me when

I would be terrified. I didn't talk for like the first three or four practices that we covered, and you know how it is, you got this clot and media around you with their little stuff, and I was just trying to not be noticed and learn and do And by like the fourth time, he just like looked at me in the middle of a press comp of people and was like, what you don't speak? Do you not speak? And I was just like, oh, okay, and then ask my probably ridiculous question at that point because that was

so nervous. So when the first time I got to do like a real formal, this is official sit down with Michael Jordan's, I was just I was like, Okay, I'm good, this is good, you know that sort of thing. So there's been those kind of moments along the way where I felt like I've gotten to at least get a little peek about these these people who have done extraordinary things, and that feels special to kind of add

on to this. And this is not a normal quick hitter, But like I said, you enjoy what you're doing, So how cool is it? Like how do you keep the fan in you in Sometimes when you're getting to meet some of these legends or people, you really look up. But but that's because I think It's easier because I'm not really a fan, as I discussed that the basketball team I grew up being a fan of, Okay, so I would be biased thinking that like George Morrison and

the New Bowl were special. Like I mean, I'm not anyone I am quote biased as a fan of is not. It would not bother anyone like I have complete bias about Allen Iverson, and anyone who's been around me knows I have no chill um. I grew up loving Georgetown basketball and everything that man has ever done. I don't care you cannot talk to me about He's perfect, as I introduced him on the show. All the time, he is our greatest living American. I think being open about

those biases is fine. And then when I'm excited and let the fan out of me, it's normally of people who have done cool things like so I don't I feel like it's okay and it's never stopped me and you guys have both been on the other end of this. I don't think I asked soft questions. I wanted to ask the easy questions, you know, because I I feel like if I am a fan of what you do and respect you, I'm gonna have enough perspect for you to think that you don't want to ship and soft

you around you. Let's be real. So your dream one on one interview? Who would it be? Steven Jackson life story? Oh wow, you show you ready for that? How many hours would we have to do? We do like sixty hours. We're gonna need some time right right, because guy's gonna be some crime. It's gonna be some laughing. It's gonna be it's gonna be some what the funk? Why did you do that? It's gonna be a whole bunch of that. It's gonna be a whole bunch of that. But don't

you think he's like the most interesting person. He's been through so much, especially like his journey and then now post career, Like I said, for us to both be kind of reinventing ourselves for our second act um. I mean I tell him all the time, but that'd be a definitely one tell Jesse's story. I will be honor range if you can relive one sporting event you covered in the past. Which one would it be? And why? Oh? Man?

I mean, you know the emotional part is, like you know the night Code had his last game and dropped sixty. The Warriors also one right they had at Memphis. We were in. Yeah, we didn't get to see Kobe's last game, and they smacked us right. So sorry to bring up a surject remember that they gave me the choice of being at either game. They were both on our air, by the way. One was on ESPN, one was on ESPN two I think or whatever. And I just looked.

I was like, I'm one of the Kobe game. And and I think there was because the Warriors were so the story and Kobe, yes, he had been on this sort of retirement tour, and there was a little bit less of like, well, we've seen him, We've done all that. These waved goodbyes, waved you know, it's like Jerk Jeter, how many times can you like wave at the crowd? And I was just like, no, I'm going on the

Kobe game. And it was as incredible as advertised, and I don't need to relive it because it's still fresh and like whatever, But I mean, how much would you love to see him out there energy? There's a little bit of that. I think I would like to see again. Five Dinner Guests, dead or alive. Oh Man, well, Alan Iverson clearly great. I don't know. I'm not good at this game. I mean I think I think some of

the women would be from two hundred years ago. But who did their ship no matter who was telling them what they had to do. Those are largely who would make up my dinner guest list. And you know, it's still it's funny. We just had like women's and what are we calling it? Empowerment, Women's History Month, Women's Appreciation Month. I know how everyone feels about Black History Months too. It's just sort of like, oh, we get a month,

thank you so much. What I would like is women not to be paid eighty cents on the dollar right across the country, and by the way, women of color significantly less so. The ones who sort of were able to go through those circumstances. I think those are those who I wanted my dinner table. And Neverson, because he's ever since, sorry, that's just gonna happen. He gets to see with a bunch of great women. If you can have one guest on all the smoke, who would it be?

And why who do I want you guys to get into it with? Man, that's a good one. Um. I mean you've had everyone first of all, so I'd like you to I'd like you to get here with Michael with some cigars and that whiskey that we saw next to him, what was that? We feel whiskey bourbon? What? What was that? But but but the level of the level of the ship kept going and his eyes were changing colors in the process. He was killing it. I would I think we have to make that like a

live show. So m J because he's a guy who again I covered him while he was playing both in Chicago and d C. And then I remember being in Charlotte for something when he had just started his ownership stant there and I was sitting in his office and we were just kind of shooting the ship and just start talking about old stuff, and of course, like at the end of it, I'm like Michael, like, why don't you come downstairs and come like beyond with us, like

come beyond? And he just looks at me. He goes, I don't do that anymore, he said, because I don't have to. And I was like, oh, yeah, so he really does. He does, like one cigar fish Unado cover like every X number of years. I think he's talked to Bray Thompson in her place once or twice, but he has not done anything like this. I that is what I want to see. We can make someone send this clip to Mike. Rachel said, look, Gina parody so she can make anything. All your guests here has a

lot of pressure. Gy. We got faith in you. I got no doubts. I am so grateful to you guys for the time. Thank you, thank you right here, so thank you. That's a rap. All the smoke special guests, Rachel Nichols, thank you for your time. And on Showtime Basketball YouTube in the I Heart platform Black Effects. We'll see you all next week. Walking like a fos. Wow,

that's Spaniard archer Letta, which just be him. We title on the line against number one contender Sergio Pettis Vegetoria lat or m m A Live Friday May seven on Showtime where Warriors Rule h