Rachel Nichols | Ep 153 | ALL THE SMOKE Full Episode | SHOWTIME Basketball

you're making the announcement. I mean you're part of the game now. Rachel is here to join the show Time Basketball team and really kind to help guide this ship. So with an honor to have you on board, and we're excited to be working with you. I mean, I am so thrilled. For twenty five years, I have gotten to do what I love for a job, which is also kind of crazy in and of itself. And to have this next step be with Showtime Sports, to get to work with crazy, cool, talented people I admire and

respect both in front of and behind the camera. I'm so excited to join you guys. Can you take a few minutes, Let's get straight to it to tell us about your departure from ESPN. Yeah, I mean, look, it all started really good a few years ago. Um, we can go back to three years ago. ESPN gave me a new contract. I already been there with The Jump, and in the contract was that I was going to host the NBA Finals. And you guys have known me

for years, I have covered the sport for decades. The idea that I was going to host the NBA Finals everything my dream job. That was going to be your first time, to be my first time doing it. It just it meant the world. I mean I called every executive involved personally to take them. I mean, I was just I was so so excited. Um. They put everything in writing in the contract, they put out a big

press release about it. Um. One of the things I asked for in the contract was that any pregame show I did would be a continuation of our daily show, The Jump, because it was something we started together. I was so proud of. And I just also didn't want any confusion. There's a lot of politics at ESPN, and I knew that the NBA Countdown job was still open, and I didn't want anyone to think that I was trying to horn in on NBA Countdown. I wasn't. I

wanted to stay with the Jump. It was important to me, so I thought making that distinction would really help things. And Maria Taylor ended up getting the NBA Countdown job. I really wanted to make an effort to welcome her, to open my door to her. I sent her flowers when she got the job because I was really really happy for her. What changed on how you felt in the workplace, Well, things got complicated later that season, y'all

know it was right. So we had a pandemic. There was the tragic murder of your friend George Floyd, a lot of difficult conversations with this country looking itself in the face, seeing what had to change and be different. And The New York Times did an expose in July on racism at ESPN and the lack of opportunities for people of color, and the executivety Is p N said, what I think people would expect all the right things about we'd like to give more people more opportunities. We're

continuing to grow all of those things. And around the same time, I got a phone call asking me would I step aside for Maria to host the NBA Finals and have me go back to being a sideline reporter. And they stressed it was my choice. They weren't telling me to do this because it was in my contract, but they were putting a lot of pressure on me. You know. I was being told, well, you're not a team player, which any woman in business knows is code right.

Women are supposed to be kumbaya and team players and helpful and men are aggressive sharks and all of that. And I just felt like, hey, I worked so long decades for this job. I have done everything that was asked. We put on some great shows leading up to the playoffs, and I wanted a chance to do it. And at this time, I was also getting ready to leave for the Bubble and went down there and it was a different set of equipment than I have been using to

broadcast at home. So my very first day i'm there, I'm using the new equipment. And I didn't know that if you leave a particular app running in the background, that the line from my hotel room looking into my hotel room them to Bristol would stay open. So I thought I was done for the day. I did the things you would do on your first day in a

hotel room. I spent hours unpacking. UM, called my husband, called talk to my kids, called some friends, called my doctor, And unfortunately, that entire time, nobody back at ESPN told me that there was an open line to my hotel room and anyone who looked at the feed could see me. No one shut it off, decided, oh, she clearly doesn't

know she's getting watched unpacking or doing all these other things. Um, And at least one person, uh, decided to just sit and watch and started spying on me like I was their own personal television show. And when they heard something they thought was juicy, they picked up their cell phone and they started recording my conversation on their cell phone. A personal conversation. Yeah, this was a conversation between me and a friend. We talked about a lot of different things, UM.

But then he brought up the article that had been in the paper about the lack of opportunities for people of color at ESPN, and we started talking about how my situation may intersect with some of the race and gender history of a network that is again well documented, is complicated history with both of those kinds of things

and those issues. So we started talking about it, and um, I wanna I want to try to get if I have it here exactly what I said, because I think there's a lot of confusion over that, and there's been some a lot of bad headlines. So let's just get it clear, and so here it is. I called Maria Taylor incredibly talented. Then I said, I wish Maria Taylor all the success in the world. She covers football, she

covers basketball. If you need to give her more things to do, because you ESPN are feeling pressure about your crappy long time record on diversity, which, by the way, I know personally from the female side, well, then go for it. Just find it somewhere else. You're not going to find it from me taking my thing away. This is in my contract, This job is in my contract in writing, and I want to just kind of touch

on the female side of it. Part of that quote and the frustration in my voice when I was talking about it, because you guys are players. You know what it's like for women in this business. And y'all know when I started. I mean, things are a lot better now than when I started years ago, and I have

been through a lot. I have fought through a lot of things in this business to get to where I am, And to me, it felt like, hey, if you have a problem, if it is this article, if it is something else, whatever it is, why are you coming to the two women here to solve it? Like? Why is this a switch? And you know one thing I said in that conversation that didn't get publicized as much is um you know, Maria worked on college football at the time.

She was the sideline reporter on college football and Rees Davis was the host, just like I was the host of the NBA Finals and the host of the NBA pregame show. And I asked my friend on the phone, I said, do you think ESPN would ever say to Reese Davis, Hey, we want to give Maria this opportunity, you go be the sideline reporter. Do you guys think that what ever happened, they don't say that to men.

So when I said go somewhere else when I was feeling so frustrated, that's what I was talking about and things kind of progressive. ESPN HR did a full investigation into it. They told me that I had done nothing wrong that required any kind of discipline. Then six months later, they actually gave me a contract extension and a race, and they actually elevated Maria in that same period as well.

So I thought we had put things behind us, And unfortunately, I think there were still some people who had bad feelings, and they held onto this tape for a year, just kept it in their pocket, and then when there was a point they wanted some leverage with their own situations, they fed it to the press and the story that ran again in the New York Times. And I will say now what I said then, which is I feel very sorry that any of this touched Maria Taylor, because

she's a fellow woman in this business. It wasn't her fault what was going on. I wasn't talking about her actions. I was talking about someone else. And to even bring her into it, um, that was a mistake on my part. And if I caused her to be upset in any way, that stinks. I don't want to be that person, right, I don't want to do that. So I called, I texted, I asked our supervisors to set up a meeting, and I was just told she wasn't interested in talking to me,

which is, of course, you know, that's her thing. And I thought that when this became public, I should also apologize on air, and I did that. Imagine yourself working somewhere twenty five years for a job and they want to use you as a scapegoat to pick something that they've been sucking up for years. It don't work like that, and that's not fair to nobody at no race. And that's how I took it, you know what I mean,

And and that and then it just wasn't right. And that's why I didn't mind um jumping out there and standing up for you, because I love you and I and I know you, and like we said earlier, we wouldn't be here without you. But people just gotta put theirself in somebody else's shoes sometime before you just jump out there and judge and just already and make it racial. You know what I'm saying. If I would be, I

would be upset the same goddamn way. If I've been working my life for a job for twenty years and just because you've but you've been messing something up your whole last twenty years. You want to use my situation to make it look better and make me take a step back on the job that I've been working for it. Don't work like that, and that wasn't fair. So I understood it, and that's why I stood up for you. Well.

It was especially too in a time where there was so much racial tension, you know what I mean, Like we knew what was in the air at the time, So that's why I kind of felt like, and that's the media. I mean. I had to learn the hard way on the email joker thing. You know. I jumped out there without knowing everything and and tried to be like, you know, if this is what I think it is from what everyone was hearing, this is not all that. And then I kind of here and I'm just like, oh, ship,

you know what I mean. But it's it's the media will take stuff. And we know we're all a part of the media. The media will take stuff and and take what they need and and and run with that, you know what I mean, And no matter who it hurts or effects that it's not about being right, It's about being first, you know, So who wants to be able to break that? I will say that in the days after all of this sort of became more public,

I was really moved by you. By you, Matt. You got on a plane at five in the morning to come be next to me on television, remember, and you give me chills to think about it when we're in Phoenix, right, And with no hesitation, I talked to him, yeah, because I mean, you know, we know it's it's always hard because you know, obviously this is a crazy business. The NBA is a crazy business. But you really find very few real friends. I'm cool with everybody, but real friends

is hard to come by. Some when I heard it, started hearing you know that Rachel's racist and this is not just like fuck no, and that's why I felt like I had to speak on it. Like I said, you kind of you know, you definitely helped start Jack and with the jump at the same time, and then as soon as I was ready to come, like you were like a almost a mother figure from a standpoint, you know, this is your camera. If you need help with that, U saw practice, you know, call me, here's

my cell phone. We can do that. I'm just like, oh, ship, well, because she's given me the kind of the blueprint. So you were always so welcome me because I felt like you wanted to see us succeed in this space, which was which was dope, you know, And it's a cutthroat business, you know what I mean. Not all athletes are cut out for this ship, you know what I mean. So you you know, you kind of let us know earlier, like, hey, you know, this is where you gotta be, and you know,

if you need help, I'm here. So that's why, you know, I really kind of went out there and just like, no, this is not she's I can personally tell you for sure, she's not racist. So it's just hard because, like I said, the tension in the air at that time was just there. It was a real division because of what literally happened on in the streets. And and I do feel that if I got anything sort of in that really rotten week, it was what you said publicly, you're getting on that plane.

It was Chris Paul, the head of the Players Association, saying, I want to sit down with an interview with you still, like let's be on camera together. Kareem Abdul Jabbar went on camera with me just a couple of days later. That meant the world to me, given his position, everything

he's fought through. Um, you know, Adam Silver made some comments I really appreciated about the situation, and it made me feel like, oh, these twenty years, the people in the league know me, they know, they know, they know who who you are, they know what you're about, and that that's something I took with me. Um past the job at ESPN was Okay, you know this foundation what I have done. It's not like I built the whole

thing at ESPN. I worked at the Washington Post, I worked at CNN, I worked at t N T, I did baseball on TVs. I have done it all. So I covered football for years. You know that's me. It's not ESPN granting me my career, and that, um it sort of opened up for me what I could do somewhere else and sort of all the things I had been wanting to do. But where could I do that? How could I make that fun? What would you say you learned from all this, Rachel? I learned to be

particularly careful with my words. That even if what I say, the exact words and I read you that quote aren't if those words aren't so incendiary, they can make people

feel a kind of way. They can make people feel like you're implying something that brings up that hurt, right, that brings up other experiences that brings up their own frustration with things that have been told to them throughout their long career or things like that, and that whether it's in private public that it matters to me that I don't cause that kind of hurt and I want to make sure that I get better every day at choosing what and how I say things and expressing who

I really am. So I learned that. I also learned, frankly, that one of the things that was important to me in terms of the next job I did was, as you just mentioned, working with a team of people where everyone else wanted each other to win, right that that close group where people are having fun, loving what they do and trying to support each other in a way that makes everyone better and kind of brings new ideas and all of that. So that was a big thing

that I was looking for. And then also, you know, the media world is changing, and you know, I grew up on newspapers, and I grew up in the Washington, D c. Area, and I thought, if I could work for the Washington Post, that was it. That's all I wanted to do. That's how I first met you, and uh. I worked there for ten years, but newspapers changed right with the Internet and all the stuff, and it was like, huh, I can reach more people and talk to more people

if I do television. And now media is changing again. So yes, television, linear television is still a big part of how we all consume sports. But I'm also excited to be with a place that is really interested in Hey, we want to reach people. What are the not just one, but four different ways that we can do that. How do people actually absorb sports into their life? Is it with one screen? Is it with two screens? Is it with something like you guys right, this is a podcast,

but also it's on, it's on. I see a lot of television cameras here, but this kind of plays Foster's Hey, just come to the table as you are where you are. We're excited and happy. Do you have us having you join us? What are your goals in the next few years? Well, look, I think that showtime is in such an exciting point because y'all got the players. First thing, when I talk to you, you said your first job to make us look good. I did, actually that is what I said.

But I always think that's my job. I mean, that's what Matt was saying I mean that is that is how I go about this stuff. And and you guys do this incredible stuff on the court. Well, I don't know anymore. I don't know how your back is. But I'm on the golf course now. But the reason we want to hear what you have to say is because of what you've accomplished, Because of what you have done. I want to show that off. I want you guys to win and look your best and kind of succeed here.

And it is the first thing I said to you. It is probably the first thing I said to you when you came to the jump. It's probably the first thing I said to you. It's the first thing I said to t Mac. You know, I am here to make this a success and to have fun, because I think that across the sports landscape, we have kind of gotten into a point with studio programming, with things that aren't just the game, where yes, there's absolutely a place

for reporting on the business of sports. Yes there's absolutely a place for investigative journalism. I believe that. But people sit down and watch a game because it's fun, because they want to escape for a few hours, because they want to scream, because they want to see the hero and the villain drink do other things. Um, they want to see whoever they think is the hero, whoever they think is the villain, go at it. It's a story

in front of them, playing out in real time. And I just think that on the Jump, one thing we were able to capture was the fun of sports, and that's one of my real big pillars for what we do going forward here at showtime is let's have some fun. Let's invite people in to have fun with us. Let's tell some great stories. Stack. We haven't even gotten to half the stories of your playing days. Same with you, Matt. What about what about? How? What about how he used

to dress when he first came on the Jump? Oh boy, like l a gangster, Dicky's Penaltyon's chains on top, I'd be I'd be getting ready for a game like what the funk is Jack wearing on the Jumps? Everyone's allowed to have their own style came around, you know, like that. But yeah, I think I just think there's so many things we can do that play on people's love of the game and have a good time. So that's really the thing I want to do and focused on going forward. Well,

we just want to give you your flowers. I mean, Richel like you. So we're you've been so instrumental and not only us, but but a lot of different people. That again for sure us first and foremost us. Um. But again like you said, and and it resonated with me. You know around the league, your work has spoken for itself.

And I think that's why. You know, the people that didn't know you may have condemned you, but the people who know you And that's what I really care about, is how the people who know me and love me feel about me. That's the only people that matter. And and you really found out who did that and and who did and who does and to me that's the most important. But you're you know, you're very special to us,

You're very special to the NBA. You know all you've done and and and geors you've open and your approach to the game. Um, So we just want to let you know that you know, you've had a year off you. I'm sure you're not too rusty. It's like riding a bike, but we obviously want to thank you for what you've done and welcome to you and and excited to you know, partner up and move forward with you. We're going to have so much ever richel You know, I love you,

but like it's deeper than just the show. We know a lot of guys that wasn't Hall of Famous or wasn't NBA stars the whole career, we don't get those opportunities. So and Gina tell you, you know, when when y'all called me, I was in a I was in a position where I didn't know what I was doing, you know what I mean, I don't know what I was

gonna do going forward. So to get that call from you and Gena, get the opportunity, it was like a It was a moment where I felt like that I really was appreciated for what I did in a relationship we had my whole career and being a guy like that that wasn't All Star, that wasn't one of the commerce guy on the commercials. To be able to get this opportunity and get that call from it meant the world because guys like me don't get these calls. So

I'll ride for you and love you. And that's why I didn't hesitate to have your back, because the opportunity to give me as prices and no dollar or anything you can put on it. Just the phone call and just thinking about me. Man, everything. So I love you and I always got you back. Well, appreciate that, but that's you. You earn that, and that is also being invested in the game. We know that having an exceptional basketball team that wins a title does not just have

all stars, right, it has the glue guys. That has the guys, the fan favorites, the two of you and you know, and the Tracy mcgrady's right, and the Allen Iversonce, which we you know. I mean, by the way, the fact that Showtime has partnership with my personal hero Alan Iverson. Just talked to Chuck the other day. Man, our greatest living American. I just want to make that clear. I love you too, but I will throw you. I will

throw you aside. I will throw you aside for Allen Iverson, the idea that yes, uh team Allen Iverson and again here at show Time. They both have partnerships, the Showtime,

the two of you, Kevin Garnett, Paul Pierce. These are guys who all have different role on a basketball team, and they all have different roles when you're talking about basketball and they're all the showtime and we need we need all of those voices, h you know, and you kind of you don't kind of help me and Jack get here from the standpoint of you allowed us to talk on TV, you know what I mean, opening the door for us to talk, because, like I said, people

didn't I didn't even know I wanted to do this. When I was done, he didn't know what he wanted to do. We would talk like what's next, and it was just like we started talking on TV and people like, oh, you know, you guys are good, you guys are real, you guys this and that was that's what made me think, well,

let's do something together, you know, I mean. So that's how kind of, you know, all the smoke came about, was because we had an opportunity to talk on TV when we didn't know that we could really we do. We could talk ship, but we didn't know what we could really talk, you know, and say stuff that people want, you know, need and want to hear. So well, this is perfect. So I was in a way always helping to create things at show time, and now I get to get paid for it. Well, Rachel, welcome, Thank you,

I appreciate you. Thank you excited to move forward and uh man, welcome to death Row, I mean show Time man. That's a wrap. Rachel Nichols special edishing to all the Smoke. You can catch us on Showtime Basketball, YouTube and the I Heart platform Black Effects. See you all next week. Gio