Penny Hardaway | Ep 36 | ALL THE SMOKE Full Episode | #StayHome with SHOWTIME Basketball

told no about it. I want to smoke. Welcome back to a special Quarantine edition of All the Smoke with my brethren. Stephen Jesse Jackson. What's up? What's up? What's up? My HERMANO? How you doing? Bro? You're good? I'm good man, just chilling man. I'm I'm excited about this episode. But you tell you all the words out of my mouth. Go ahead, I got, I got, I gotta because you know it's some it's a big broad mind. You know we've we've played against each other off the NBA court,

but we haven't had a begging session. The last couple of segments I have I'm gonna be on this banking segment, no question. Bring him on in, Bring him on in, man without further Ado. One of my favorite players growing up, Man Killer. Let's welcome Penny Hardaway Man. Thank you for your time and joining us today. Yeah, Man, appreciate you're having me on here. Man, my phone was going up now,

that's all we're trying to do. Were trying to help you. So, fifteen year career, four time All Star, three time All NBA. You were a draft day trade Orlando picks see web, Golden State picks you. You're swapped out and your head to Orlando. Talk to us about that. I know that the story goes a little bit back or you and Shock were shooting Blue Trips, which is one of my favorite movies. Shaq was blown away by how good you were. He says he didn't know who you were before, but

you know how Shock be talking. So we don't know if that's true or not, but he said, once y'all started fel he was absolutely blown away. Tod Orlando, they needed to get you, Ortlanta felt like they needed to take team Shock up. But see Webb. Shock obviously got what he wanted though, because you were drafted, Like I said, Golden State traded Orlando. What was it like going to Orlando with the with the new team and play with

big fella. Well, you know what's so weird is you said that he took the words out of my mouth. You know how shock is. Shaq knew me when I was a sophomore in college. We played on the Olympic Olympic Festival and UH in Minnesota that summer, the summer before I I came out. But Shock, like I said, you know, you like to make the stories sound a lot better. That's my dude. What did was when I got the Blue Chips though and started doing the movie.

It was weird because I was having to try out for teams on the weekends like fly Out and fly Back. So I'm like, when I go to Orlando, I'm gonna rip the ship up. But all summer I got an audition with Shack, so I didn't shoot the ball. I passed them up with the ball. Every time I was three dropping a toe with two people on him, I was giving them the ball every time just to say, hey, dog, this is exactly what you're gonna get if you bring

me to your team in Orlando. And that's what happened. Man, And then getting down there obviously had a young squad man Um that was very talented and went to the finals and only our second year. But the audition to get there, I knew exactly what I was doing to get as big as their ball. I knew that he wanted the ball. And we're definitely gonna touch that. We want to backtrack and take our time to get to So how are you holding up? Coronavirus? You know everybody's

in quarantine. How are you and the family doing? Man? Everybody's good. Man. I work out every morning. I try to get up every morning early, work out, and then I'm back on the couch, become a couch potato. Now I'll go to the facility. Uh, there's no one there but me. I work out. I'll come right back home. Uh. And then I get on the phone and start calling recruits, FaceTime recruits, and know what I gotta do. The job

can stop. What has that process been like though? I mean, you had what touch on it, but you had extreme As soon as you touch the coaching scene, you had success. But five years, five titles? Uh do your little high school run? Uh? We'll talk about you got to college. But what has that process been like? Did you ever see yourself turning into one of these coaches and not here recruiting these kids and and doing what you're doing

on the highest level. You know, it only hit me when I retired, because when I was retiring, I was like, you know what, I might go to t N T, I might go to ESPN. Seriously, I was just thinking like I might just play golf and then do that in the fall. Uh, and just kind of enjoy life. And if you've seen the story, I had a buddy that had colon cancer, was dying from cancer, was a

coach of my middle school team in my neighborhood. Joined with him and started coaching, and really kind of got a boat from that situation, and then moved from there to a you, a you to high school and never once really thought about college until maybe a couple of years before it really happened because I was really happy with what I was doing with the kids in high school.

I'm kind of glad it happened with college because you know, you coach, you coached the kids that I was able to coach in the Alan Obinson game, Boogie Ellis and uh, I knew I knew this kid was gonna be good. But but being in college and how difficult has it been, you know, being able to have the experience with these young kids, but also the way this season has gone. You know, the season and stop y'all were able to finish, like even even with the beginning this season with with

the star player, you had like talk about all that. Yeah, you know when I saw that, I saw the AI game last year and I saw you with the young fellas, and I know one thing you don't get with stat he's gonna keep it one hundred And I know he was keeping one hundred with him and I saw a bookie there and I was hoping that he could kind of get under you and AI and kind of get some questions. He had workaholic man, and to me, he came in with high expectations and he put a lot

of pressure on himself. And that's what a lot of kids do because everybody wants to be one and done. And he's a terrific kid. He's all. He was our hardest worker this year and the season didn't go as playing, but guess what he didn't with He kept grinding. He never stopped his work. And that's what I love about this this level because sometimes you gotta get out the mud is it's not gonna happen with you coming in one year and then going in and going on to

the next level. It's not as easy as a lot It's not as easy as a lot of people trying to make it seem. So. Yeah, it's been fun for me this experience because I'm feeding back me, Mike and me and microre feeding back into the kids everything that we've learned. I feel like it's a cheat sheet before they get to that next level if they're capable of

playing on that level. Absolutely talked us a little bit about losing Wiseman with the n C Double A rule violation and how weak we all think the n C double as Jack didn't even Jack said the n C Double A league. But talk to us a little bit about that process, because that kid was a monster from the beginning. You got a little taste of them. I'm sure you got to see a lot in practice, and

then the n C Double A suspends them over some bullshit. Yeah, man, you know what, that was crushing because James is just pretty much an innocent Bostandard. There was nothing malicious with that that happened. But obviously they can paint a picture how they however they want to paint it. And for that kid to have to sit out twelve games, uh,

was devastating. Obviously, he fought it when it got a restraining order from the court to be able to fight the first three games until they kind of gave him, um what his ruling was going to be. And you know, they actually pushed him out of college. I don't think that's what I don't think that's what it should be about. I don't think you put kids in the position to try to choose whether to stay in school or leave school while they're already there, because you're you're doing things unfairly.

And that's all just standing on that. But I had his back, um, and when he left, man, it crushed me because I knew that he needed to be there,

he wanted to be there. But just it was just two overwomen with what happened with the n c A. Man, and I know you can't speak on it because you worked somewhat you know, closely with the nt double A being a coach, but you know from an outside looking and I just think they're destroying college sports, you know, with the way they're making so much money off these kids, not barely giving them anything back. They're starting to try to make them pay a little bit here and there,

but just really making it unfair. And now you're seeing kids make that jump. You know, kids are going straight to the G League. Now, kids are going overseas. Now they're avoiding college. And you know, to me, I had a college was the best time of my life outside of having children. I was blessed to play, you know, fourteen years in the NBA, but college was a blast for me. I'm sure you can speak on how fun college was, but the n C double as sucking that

up for kids with their outdated slave mentality rules. You know, it's it's funny that you say that because college was the best time of my life. And I know, people go, man, you made hundreds of millions of dollars, How can you say college was the best. College was the best time of my life. It was because everything was so pure and you were you were with a group of a group of guys that are all on that same page and pushing towards the same goal. And the fan base,

the college fans are just amazing. And and if you're blessed enough to be on a team good enough to make a run in the n c A tournament. That makes it even better. But I understand why kids are choosing other avenues now because it is very tough on this level. They're making it extremely tough. So it gears. Talk to me about the Hall of Fame class with Kobe, Duncan and KG arguably one of the greatest inductee classes we've seen. What are your thoughts on that class? Man?

Just phenomenal, man. Unfortunately what happened to code uh still almost like shocking to me on a daily basis to understood that, understand that happened. But to have that class with Casey and and Tim and Kobe going together, man, that's that is that is phenomenal. Man. I know it's gonna be very emotional on a lot of levels that day, and guys that are going in, like Katie and Tim, they're gonna have to, you know, lock in on, Hey,

this is our moment. But when Kobe's opportunity comes, man, it's just not gonna be a dry on, you know, or nothing. No matter if you respected him from the point of view who he was as a fierce competitor or whatever it was, you know that that dude was just unreal, and to not be here to even receive that, you know he wanted to be. He would have that would have been he would have had a smile so big on that job, yeah, sir, and to see that not having this crushing yes, you know, he would have

had an amazing speech ready for every one. Reflect a little bit on Kobe as a competitor. Did you get a chance to know him well honor off the court? What was your experience like with him and against him? You know, it's funny. I have a weird Kobe story, and I have to say to two of them really quickly. I met Kobe when Kobe was in high school and I didn't know who he was. Obviously, I'm the man in in in the NBA. I got a little penny commercials, I got my signature shoe, I'm on top of the world,

on first team All NBA. And he came to me after a Sixers game and asked me what he should do on going to the draft, And man, I didn't know. I had never known who Kobe was. And I felt so bad afterwards because he asked me should he go? And I was like, well, he was like, well should I go? And I said, I don't know, young fellow, you might even go ahead and go to college. This

is Kobe Bryant. And he was like, well, they're telling me I'm gonna be a lottery I said, well, they're telling you're gonna be lottery dog, then you should go. I changed that because I didn't I didn't know who he was. And a couple of years later he's in in the in the league. He never forgot that conversation. Of course, not Magic Johnson. Matthew Johnson has All Star Game in the summer. Everybody knew those, those Magic Johnson games and Chriss Midsummer Night, Summer Night. So I'm in

that game and Kobe calls me out. I said, oh, ship this dude. Remember he remembered that day in Philly. And I just didn't take it like he did obviously. But all he needs is a little a little something to just get that that that momentum going on. I'm getting you back. You didn't believe in me, You didn't you didn't know me. And we went at each other in the in the Magic game. Obviously he was a young pup. I got the best of him in that game, but he did come to me and go. You know,

I want to learn. I want to be the greatest. And I knew then though that he was just gonna be unstoppable and unbelievable moving forward. But yeah, he that's my Kobe stories right there. I love it. And that's how he looks. He looks for a little ship like that little chick up something to add to his like okay, yes, okay, Hardaway, I'm gonna see you in a couple of years. I'm gonna catch up with you. He definitely wrote my name down when en up the sixest game, like I gotta

get this, dude, that's funny. Jordan returned back to the game in n Did you want to play the Bulls in the playoffs when he returned, Man, you know, the biggest thing was when m first came back and I was like, he's back, Like I wanted to play against m J. And then he retired before I came into the league. Then when I came into the league, he comes back. So my first mindset is, damn MJ's back.

And then I snapped out of this here I stopped real kick like you gotta go in, you got because this is my favorite player along with Matt Matthew was number one, but MJ who who didn't like MJ. So when he came back and we played them for the first time, I got the best to him and pipped that game. I think I had thirty six and I was so I didn't even sleep that night because I was so hyping Ridy to play that game and we won.

But I think I only pissed him off. I pissed them all, sure, But it was early in the season and we were one of the first teams and early in the season to beat that sevent team. We were wanting to ten and that's the game I had thirty six. Shack didn't play that game because he was hurt, and I remember that game very well. But as far as the bulls man it was, it was really you had to get your sleep the night before, honestly, like moving forward if you're gonna play those guys, because they were

just relentless. They pulled out every one of your weaknesses. If you weren't a baller, you want a jump shooter, they were gonna make you shoo jump shots if you try to get to the basket. They were plugging the paint. They just were not going to give you your strength and what you really love to do, and they were just they were relentless at all times on what they needed to do, and then offensively they ran the triangle

to perfection. So to me as a competitor, I enjoyed every game against them because you knew you were playing against greatness. Now looking back on it, because like I said, I think obviously, once you get in in your career and you're like a hamster in the will you keep looking,

you keep moving forward. Looking back on that and how long ago was and putting yourself back in in in that young Penny, what are your thoughts kind of seen behind the scenes, Because we talked about it before, like social media now, fans are so spoiled they get to see everything, I mean, from from motherfucking tin your shoes to go into the bathroom. Back back then you didn't get to see no behind the scenes. And and like you said, Jordan was under your favorite players, one of

me and Jack's favorite players. What are your thoughts kind of looking back and seeing the ins and ounced what was going on with that team? Two things spit out right away when I looked at that. The first thing was how they treated the GM the boys was hard. Bro didn't want his motherfucker right. I mean even this, I don't know who he had the balls to talk

to their TM the way that those boys did. First of all, right, right, only only a hand full of players could even talk like that period to upper management. And secondly, I was trying to figure ot where the hell I was when Scotty set out the first part of that season. I'm like, what was I doing and not noticed? I didn't remember that Scotty set out the first part of the season and what was going on with the whole deal? I mean, my prime I'm playing.

I'm thinking, I don't I look it then and go then, why don't I remember Scotty not having served me in the summer and having surged you during the season and having a contract dispute. I don't know why I don't remember that because you were too busy. But some people ass I didn't remember that. But I thought that was kind of I thought that was kind of messed up though, because Scotty was he was a moment. Wasn't both both ends.

Let's take it back to where it got started. Uh, born and raised in Memphis, playing outside of them hot to ask basketball courts. What man, what kind of competitor and mental approach to that? Installing you at at an early age. They don't know about that Midwest committed penny. They don't know about that emitted it out here. Hey man, I'm talking about you losing eight pounds a day. Eight I was already skinny as hell, so I didn't need

to lose I go out there. My shorts were fit by the time of hoop Sesson was over my shorts and fit fall. Yeah. Yeah, but but I think that, you know, everybody wants to stamp their hood or stamp their city, Like, hey man, you had to get it when you went to this court of that court, but got blessed because the city of Memphis, on every street, corner, every part, it was like no files, it was you had to who if you weren't proving, you couldn't get

on the court. And a lot of times with the older cats, you have to pass the ball, a lot of play defense and get that get that ball to the people that was really doing it. And so you got your chance. So you have to build that reputation with the guys before they even allowed you start shooting. And that made me tougher. That made me Misslely tougher physically tougher because there were no files and you had to defend and that that era it was. I'm so thankful that I grew up in that type of error.

Though decorated high school career. Your senior ear you average thirty six tens, ass, four steals and two blocks. You did everything. You were named Parade magazine Player of the Year. What went into your college decision? Did you not want to go far away? Did you what was your thoughts on just basically going right up the street at the time it was Memphis State, correct now Memphis. Yeah. First of all, I had my all my relatives were doing the scorebooks, so they made me look good. So if

if I didn't have, they still put it down. But no, But honestly, I think just I fell in love with the teams in the eighties, the Memphis Tigers in the eighties, the late eighties, like when I was in eighth ninth grade, they made that run when they went to the Final four a couple of years. They had an unbelievable team, and I kind of fell in love with that team and I wanted to go there from like eighth grade all the way up. I kind of fell in love with that group and it didn't matter how how good

or bad the team was. When I when I knew I was gonna come out, I just said, man, I want to do this for the city, stay home and then try to do it myself like those guys did. And my team was all Memphis guys. We had Memphis, and we went one game from the final four. We lost in Cincinnati and the least eight. They went on to play Michigan, Michigan. That's when Chris Berber called the time out against North Carolina. That whole thing. But honestly, the season came in because I wanted to stay home

and make a difference. I felt like if I if I stayed home, that I would make a difference for my city. I love that. So it doesn't get off to the way you're playing. Uh, you have to sit out, do the academic problems. While you're sitting out, you're you're you're held at gunpoint, shot in the foot. I'm sure that changed your perspective on everything. Talk to us about

that rough start. Like you said, your whole thing was to put off for the city, give back to the city better the place you get there, it doesn't start the way you wanted to to, and then on top of that you get robbed. Yeah, I think going back to men to eight, I was never a kid that couldn't do work. I would never a kid that that didn't really focus in the classroom. My senior year, I got caught up with the wrong group, and everybody understand that.

I got caught up with the wrong with their wrong cats, and started really hanging out and doing things that you're not supposed to be doing, things that I've been taught not to do, and I kind of lit school, kind of bypassed, like, oh, I'll get to that, but I'm in the streets. So that's the same thing that happened

to me my fresh year. I got in, I didn't pass a c T. I didn't take it seriously, and then when I didn't pass, I went to school and my freshman year kind of hanging out with them saying guys a little bit got me caught up in a situation where I got robbed and then I got shot. So that's the side of me. From that point. It was like, all right, dude, you gotta make your mind up on do you want to do this side or do you want to do this side? And that bullet made a lot of sense to me. That bullet made

a lot of sense to me. And I said, you know what, it's time to get to go ahead and do what I need to do. Man, I got a promise in future, and it's time to act like I know I have. I've been raised right and and that's what happened though, but it was it was an I know. I opened it though, sitting out after being robbing and then and getting shot while I was sitting out there definitely wouldn't have been a little penny in the streets. Noo. Man, you get back on track, make the Dean's List, your

team makes it to your lead eight. You lost to our Nick van Exel Cincinnati nine two summer. You get a chance to play for the USA Development team that gains to face the Dream Team. And that was a hell of a team, man, And I heard stories. I want you guys to get to that. But I want

to name a few players are on that team. Chris Webber, Bobby Hurley, Jamal Mashburn, Big Rodney Rogers, Eric Montrosh, Grant Hill, Alan Houston, and you guys get to go against the Dream Team, everybody's all time favorite team to watch, you know, the most talented team we've ever put together. What was it like in those battles? Because you guys are young and up and coming. I know you, I know Webb was out there talking ship, you got your swag. You guys had a lot of young talent on that team.

What was it like going to battle against them? Dudes? Man, First of all, you get star strokes soon as you walk in the room. We we check in and youre walking in the room, you see Larry Burry, Michael Jordan's, David Robinson, Charles Barkla Exer, John Stock and all these guys. I'm like, oh my god. Like but then you again, you say, I don't want to embarrass myself with these cats. So once we get to the court, Maggie john Stock, then y'all gonna have problems. I don't care. I have to.

I have to show y'all how can ball. And that was my mentality. I have to show y'all to get the respect from these guys. And man, we all went out there with their mentality that if we if we're gonna be out here, we're gonna we're gonna ball out. And the first scrimmage that we scrimmaged them like a real scrimmage, we shacked him because they didn't take us seriously, like we out there talking. I mean, you know, see web see what about they're talking so much and he

kissing them off, but we're having so much fun. The next day we come back after beating that ass them boys, was so much more physical. The first day wasn't this physical? The second day is like they told the referees, y'all better not blow y'all whistle one time we're beat I'm talking about they beat our ass man, and it was just a lesson learned, like we called him off guard.

But the whole experience of the whole time spending with them though, was you could just tell they were just professionals. They took their crafts so serious. This and that just kind of just resonated with me. Just man, if you're gonna make it to this level, you gotta be about your business. And it was a great experience for me and the rest of the fellas. So you returned after

that experience, I'm sure you're on cloud now. You return for your junior year, you have his twenty three eight and a half, six and a half assists, two steals, playing out of your mind all America and you make the you know you're on the finalist list for Player of the Year. What was it like? I think it was dope. I never knew that that you had a whole Memphis squad. Tell me what your time at Memphis. That was a culmination of it. But tell me with the time in Memphis was like coming back from that

that that USA Select Team, Man, can you amount? I was on cloud down. I was like, I don't give a damn who come at me? I just played this. I just the bird. I just say, come on, man, stop and I mean I'm ready. So I came back into the season so locked in. I mean I think I don't know if I missed the day in the gym because I was just so locked in on that's

where I need to be, That's where I want to be. Uh. And then coming into the season, like you said, with a group of guys that were just basically saying, you're our guy, We're gonna follow you. And I had some I had some good talent on the team. They weren't large names, but they could really play the game, and they were tough and man rodding that way. That year, Man, I was ready to lead. We had gotten David Vaughan from Nashville. He was the guy that the only outside

MYMI this guy was really David Vaughan. He was from Nashville, couple a couple of hours on a road and Man, we just went to work. Man. We had an unbelievable season and like I said, it ended in the Elite eight. But there was nothing like that run. Man, not even going to the finals to play against Houston in my second year was anything like that run that we made the n c A. Man, it was just it was different. That's though. That's people don't understand unless you get a

chance to experience how fun college was. And it's almost gonna be a foregone conclusion now for the majority of the top top athletes because, first of all, because the policy of the n C double A, but the G League keeps getting sweeter. You're seeing people like LaMelo Ball going overseas and doing what they're doing and buying this team and coming back and getting drafted. So the grass looks greener on that other side. But for someone like me, you know who who did four years in college. You

did three years of college. You know we both can contest. Man, college was, like I said, outside of having children, Man, it was it was the best time of my life. And U it disappoints me one because the competition level isn't what it should be. But just to know that guys aren't gonna get that last chance. Everything now is so strategic and its money and it's you can risk this, you can risk that. Back then, we just wanted to play.

We wanted to play with our homeboys. We want to go have a good time and then hit the NBA. But now let's skip that little middle part. Let's get get to the NBA. So ninety three you're drafted. Uh shake David Stearn's hand. What's that moment? Like? Man, come on, bro, I came out of a dorm room with twin bid and you know when you're shake Javid sn head that you know you're at I'm dumb done with that tweet. I'm I'm about to get a mansion. Yeah, I'm about

to get a man to do. Seriously, though, it was just a dream come true to just shake his hand and say God, thank you for the opportunity, because this is what dreams are made. Though. Man, when you when you see it early and you work your ass off to get to it and you get to it, that's a lot of people can't say that. Man. So when I shook his hand, it was like, man, thank you, thank you, I've arrived. Now I read some things that you want. You wanted to get to Orlando to play

with Shack or is that? What is that where you wanted? Where did you want to go in the draft? Not that you really had a choice, but it was that somewhere you wanted to go. I wanted to get to Orlando because I was thinking about the Magic and Kareem. You know the type of situation. It wasn't I didn't want to play with Free and Tim Hardaway. It was just I felt like I would be better with Shack and that and that tandem. Man, it worked out for

everybody when it happened. When it happened, high excited would when it happened. Man, When they told me that it was gonna happen on draft light and I shook Chris his hand and I knew he was going to go and say now I was going to Orlando, man, I just I never stopped smiling because I was like everything. I wanted to play with Shack. I wanted to play with Shade. Rookie of the year, your first year, rookie of the Year, take your team to fifty wins, playing

all eighty two games, which is unheard of. Now, Um, what stood out to you most your rookie year and when did it really start clicking? Because I mean you hit the floor running, Yeah, you know, coming in, getting with Shaq, getting with a team, uh that was on the up and coming. I was basically just saying, man, it's time for me to just stamp my name now. Uh. A lot of people didn't really know me at mentor State, and I was like now, and then the Orlando Magic

drafted me and traded me for Chris Whatever. Everyone knew Chris Whatever. So I was ready to just kind of stamp my name and say it's time for me to make my mark on this league with Shack. It's time to win the championship. So that I was really just locked in every single night, I was so ampty and ready to go against. It didn't matter who it was. It's a different game. Now. Who were some of yours that's in mentors um on that Orlando team. Well, Nick

Anderson was definitely mentors. Scott Scotles was a mentor until we traded him. But Nick and I kind of drew drew to each other because I was a fan of those Illinois teams. When he played at Illinois, they had squads him and Kendall Gill and Loyd Helm all those guys that played at Illinois. They were, man, I think their smallest guy in the starting line up like six seven six six there were it might have been Stephen Bardo and Nick. So I was like, always been a

fan of his. So when I got to Orlando and then I was a fan of Ben Ben Wilson they got killed like back in the day. And when I heard his story, I was like, man, I just asked so many questions. And when I started asking questions, he saw how humble I was. I didn't come in with any kind of ego. I was like, man, I just want to be locked in. I want to be looked at and respected by my peers. And Nick was the man on the team before Shock and I came. So

we're just kind of connected. Man, blue chips, Like I said, one of my favorite basketball movies. You and Shocked together on the big screen. Nick Nolte, Uh crazy with this crazy Bobby Bobby Knight impression. What was it like? I mean to like, you're you're in movies and everything. You're you're a star. Now take me back to and what your mindset was, because I'm sure people probably couldn't tell

Penny shit. Man. Hey man, they have a movie out to be playing with Shock, to be one of the hottest teams in the league, and that starts was starting to shine. Man, it was an unbelieve like it was a moment that I can never forget to have a movie. You know, everybody's like, you're in a movie, a big time movie too, man, thank you. I just felt like it was it was real too. At the time, I was like, this this movie the picks college basketball in a real fashion because you got your boosters, you got

your you know. Back then, I was like, man, everything about this movie is real, and I wanted it to be so natural. And then our our producer and director let us play real basketball, so we didn't act out anything except for the last scene for me to throw shack the lot. So I was loving everything about it. It was on Cloud nine. It was the last time someone called you, Butch mccraye. It's been it's been a

couple of years and since somebody's call. But they do still play the movie a lot, so I can appreciate that. And they got they got a lot of people making that jersey, making your jersey from the movie and wearing them too. Yeah, a lot of people like because I actually had a set of my shoes, the Air Penny fives. They just brought out the Western Bush mccraye with the number twenty two on it, and everybody, I'm like, a lot of people don't know what the two means, but

that's what it is. Yeah. So the second year, I mean, you guys experienced success right off the bat. You guys are in the finals. You have a one seven four, first team All NBA. You're probably thinking, like, ship is this? This is what it's like. I mean, like I said, because it's normally your process. You guys hit it. You're in the finals your second year. Speak to me on your guys mindset and what you learn from that first finals run. Well, when we got horrors Grant from the Bulls,

I locked it in. At that point, I was like we're going to the finals. You can just got you got that field when you play on a really good team. You guys have played on good teams, I mean in sat Cast Championship. So I had to feel like we're gonna be unstoppable now now that we have Horror. This is a missing piece that year. During the season recular season, we were running through everybody. It was just it was

very easy first couple of rounds of the playoffs. Um, we were confident that we just weren't gonna lose, even though we lost the second We beat the Boston Celtics the first game by sixty three points in the first round of the playoffs, and they came back and beat us in game two at our building, and we had to go to the Garden and beat them two games in a row. We shut down the first original Boston

Garden in that series. And then the next series was Michael Jordan and the Bulls, and you know, they don't lose the playoffs series, so it was like, man, these

dudes haven't lost in so long. Man, both of you know, like we gotta lock in, and we locked in and beat them, and then we went to the Indiana Pacers went to Game seven with them, and once we did that, the Spurs and the Rocket series were still going on, and we were like, you don't matter who when, it don't matter when we bust in the ass, it's us,

it's our year. And when Houston one, I think we got a little cocky because we beat them both games in the regular season pretty handily, and we were like, man, we're gonna smash these dudes. Man had them down in the first quarter, midway through the second and they made a nice run for the end of the half, and then the third quarter they made another run and they went nip and tuck and it went over time and

they beat us. And all you're talking about letting the air out, I think that game it was like it deflated our whole team to where we could never recover at all. And they they shot the crap out of the ball. Kenny Santa Sell, Fernon Maxwell, Robert Ory, Mario Elie, they shot the ball and Dream was Dream was stupid. Man, he was stupid. I've describe that that was stupid. But talk to talk to because to me, he's one of he's one of the great players that gets overlooked so often.

Talked to us a little bit about what that battle was like, because Shock is the up and coming next wave. You're an up and coming next wave, and y'all ran into motherfucking the Dream and he he set everything straight, talk to us about how talented it wasn't what that matchup was like between him and Shock at that time. Well, let me get this straight. Dream was the vet. Shack was kind of the kid. Shock held his own, but

it was a different level at that time. The Shock that was with the Lakers, if he would have been that Shock, and we would have played against you, so we would want question. But the Shock that was in Orlando was just too young. He was he was still getting his but it just didn't know enough. But man, Dream was really to me, are freaking small forward playing center and that ship was unfair. His foot is a

good way to put it. Was sick. His footwork, his shot making ability, his i Q, his toughness, his it's just he was just to me, he was a robot dog. That dude deserves way more credit than whatever he gets if he's not getting it. Absolutely So, like I said, you're in the finals your second year, you're thinking it's gonna be like that every year, and you had the harsh reality of looking back on it now, like it

doesn't come that easy, it doesn't happen that fast. You and Shack's final season together was the next season, Um, talk to us about that process. Yeah, at the end of that series, we ended up getting swelled. Every game was closed, but they just pulled off at the end. But after that first game, I felt like the series

just kind of it deflated the whole squad. And going into the next season, of course, we got high hopes, like, all right, we just got swept, we're pissed, We're gonna run through the season again, and then we're gonna smash everybody. And it didn't. It didn't work that way. It Uh, it was just we started having injuries. There was like contract turmoil, and then all of the stuff started happening,

and it's just it just kind of went downard. It didn't, it went downward, and all of a sudden we woke up. We woke the bulls up by beating the grass in the second round, and like they was like, hell no, we're about to take it back over. And then m J worked the whole summer, came back, we get to the We won the first round pretty easily, but ended up playing the Bulls in like the second round that next year and they swept us. We checked and play,

Nick didn't play, Horse didn't play. It was like I was out there like by myself and they were just freak licking their chops. And I didn't know Shack was leaving, but I guess as the season was going on, he was kind of thinking, man, maybe this is it for me. Maybe I need to change change scenery. And we went into from into that season into the Olympics, and uh, I saw all the articles, but I'm still not really

paying attention. I'm thinking we're gonna get through this. Seeing the articles, the fans are saying Shot can't shoot free throws, why should we resigned him. I'm looking at this ship, like, hold up, what are we talking about? Man, Give this man exactly what he wants. But I don't even think he really wanted the contract. I think he wanted to

leave anyway. I think he really saw l A as being an opportunity for movies, music and to you know, be with Kobe and was like, I think I can turn that situation around, and went from Rings over there and when Shaq left. I knew the magnitude of that instantly. I knew it was over. I knew it was we were done before he left. I mean, talk to me about you guys experienced a lot of success early on. You guys were cool, friendship, good, teammates, good. Everything seemed

like it clicked from the outside looking in. How good do you feel like you guys could have been If you guys would have got your time together, five seven, eight years together, I think we would have gotten at least one. With the way the tempo was going to the league, we would have added a couple more pieces, but what we already had, with us getting better, having more chemistry, I think we win at least one. Okay,

we can only speculate about what would have happened. I think for sure that with one we would have had one. And especially with these were getting better and better every year and me getting better and better every year. So you touched on it. Olympics dream team too, You guys win a gold medal. Now you're playing with Shaq? He is Is he gone by this point? Is he had signed with the Lakers at this point, you know the mess up situation? Yeah, he had? He had already signed.

When we were in the the press conference, even before the Olympics started in Atlanta, they asked me, how does it feel not to have Shack as a teammate, and if anyone was there, I laughed it off, like, well, if that's what's gonna happen, then that's what's gonna happen. They're like, you don't know, he's already gone. Like I did not know Shack had already signed. It was gone. I said, if that happens, then I wish him well. But it had already happened. I didn't even know. That's crazy.

Talk to me a little bit, or talk to us a little bit about how Little Penny came about, because to me to this day, he was still the coolest little Batman and Robin sidekick cartoon I've ever seen for an athlete. Super creative. You showed a shiploaded shoes, So talk to us about Penny, the little Penny of the character and having your own shoe. Yeah, that was a little Penny was just a blessing man. I was just kind of a side of assassin. I was. I was

about my business out on the court. I didn't really talk to yet. I didn't. I didn't really get it in until you took me there, and then it it was whatever. But Nike recognized and it was like, you know what, we need to get a trash talking alter ego for Penny and call him a little Penny. And they flew a Penny would do all the all the trash talking for Penny, and Penny will just go out there and and take care of Venis. And when they brought it to me, I instantly liked it. I was like, Yeah,

let's do it. I knew when they when they told me that that it was going to be successful because comedy along with you know, a basketball players that at the height of his career or growing to the height of his career, I thought that it was gonna be successful, and thank god it was. How dope is it? Twenty five years later? Do you still have one of the most relevant shoes in basketball? Man? I was a sneaker

head in college. You came to my dorm, if I got any money from apparent uncle, whatever, it didn't matter. I was buying some seekers. I didn't even get food. That's why I was so skinny. I was buying sneakers before food, so to get to the league and to have my own signature. Shoot, that I have a part of building. I couldn't believe it. I really couldn't believe that I have designed the logo and I have my own signature. Shoot, I knew how how powerful that was.

And man, I'm to this day. I walked into my room and see signature shoes and go, man, God has God has been amazing. Now that following year, you're left to carry the workload at years old, Uh, without shock, you you experience your first bad knee injury. Talk to us about where your mental mindset was, because, like I said, there had been so us success leading up to that point,

Finals appearances, all NBA Olympic gold medals. Now you're kind of starting over again at twenty five, and then you experience, you know, a really tough knee injury. Talk to us about that. Yeah, that was that was horrible. Man. I obviously already was just kind of just down and out about shack leaving. And you try to make the best of it. You get the training camp and go, all right, the big Fellers not coming back. Man, it's on your shoulders. You can't lose team. You gotta keep this team going.

Forward and hopefully we can get a free agent soon to come in and at least help. Nobody was gonna ever be able to do what Shack could have done. But I get into the season, and I make it through the season pretty decent, like I didn't really get hurt little knickknacks. Get into the playoffs against the Detroit Pistons, and Joe Dumars going for offensive rebounds to slammed into the back of my knee. It was most excruciated. It was the most excruciating pain I ever felt in my life.

But I kept playing. And back then if you miss games, it was like, you can't miss games. We need you on the court. So I played through it that season and wants to season was over. Man, that summer I was. I kept feeling it, but I was like, it's not really stopping me from playing. And man, as it got further and further in the summer, almost close to training camp, I don't know if I did more damage to it playing on in the summer. I told our team doctor, Man,

something just isn't right. And I went to the doctor and I had a torminous because and I had to have my first surgery and man, it just seemed like from that point I just never felt right. Man. I just I don't know what it was, but I just could never regain or get back to that explosiveness and that speed and that quickness that I had. It was like I was just kind of pushing through, but it's just never never really felt right. And that was that

was devastating for sure. I know they had to be frustrated to bid your prime, being your prime dealer with the injury. What what was your mentor like at that time? You know what I was? I was I was really messed up in the head because I was thinking, like, if you don't get back, then then it's gonna I mean, where do you go from here? And I was saying, I just gotta lock in, work my ass off and get back get healthy. But I wasn't doing it right.

I didn't have somebody in my ear going okay, slow down. First of all, let's slow down. You don't have to have a rush, you know. Grant Hill set out for two years after that. I don't know if Jack remembers this. When I was playing for the Suns, I tore my monis because against the Spurs and I played the whole series and Timmy didn't play. Timmy set out. When I look back on those days, and that's what was going through my mind. Man, do you need to sit out

until your wealth or when you start feeling better? Do you need to play? And that's when I was wrestling, when the whole time, nobody told me, Man, sit down into your I think I would get the eighty ninety and I was like, all right, I'm ready and I go right back out there. I never really fully got into a hunter, and that was that was the era I was from, and I just damaged myself more and

couldn't get over the hump. It's interesting to hear you talk about that and say that because, like you said, eighty two was it was a badger pride back then. Like you, there was no days off, there's no work management, load management. If you can walk, you can play, man. You know what I mean? And you hear you hear you see guys such as yourself, who who kind of ran yourself to the ground because the competitive nature and how you came up, wanted to get you back on

the court. You know, Grant Hill with Naggie injuries, Brandon Roy coming back too soon from injuries. It's just our competitive nature to want to get back out there on the court, because this is before we had all the technology and sports and they can monitor your body and read your body and do all this kind of ship, and it definitely would have changed the direct trajectory of your career in my opinion. Obviously you're still to me one of the greats, but you would have had more

years in your being Penny than you definitely did. Well. Let me say this two Penny Penny is I can speak for this. He was one of them. He was. He was different from a lot of these stars to man like, Penny hooped in the summertime, like he played in tournaments. He he had teams, he used to drive down Louisiana and playing tournaments like he was a real hoopisode. When you talk about stars and lets of the game, you gotta put Pen in a differ category. He was.

He was the face of the league, but he was regular because he's still hoop. He still hooped with us in the summertime and all that type of stuff, So he had a different category too. You know, I know I appreciate that because I took that seriously. Man, I love the ball and balling was what I was really felt like I was going to do. And I went to d C, I went to Atlanta, I went to Lake Charles were jacking him down there and everywhere. I played ball everywhere. And it didn't matter, man, because I

see where guys don't play in the summer. I see where guys are just kind of just drilling. I'm like, damn, man, who Like, that's what we did, you know? We whoop And that's what I love doing, though, man, And that's what we didn't getting nothing out of it. Penny wouldn't getting nine, you were sponsoring teams, you weren't getting nothing out of it. Just to win the championship and the hoop with your boys in the summer. That's it, man,

And that's what the love was. Man. I was just one of the dudes that had always hoop and I wasn't gonna stop just because I had some starter in the league. Like I was bigger than anybody else. I wanted to keep that going in the summer. This is

post lockout post Michael Jordan's um post shack. You guys face a young Alan Iverson in the first round, they beat you, guys, what was it like seeing him in that next wave of young players on the way many I was different because this dude was six ft but he had like seven ft arms and you you he had that. He had that ball on the string, and he could make tough, make him take tough shots. I know he he just he was athletic enough, he was fast enough, he was tough enough, and he was a

tough shot take a tough shot maker. And his attitude was on a million like he had that little man complex so hard, like you can't tell me nothing, you ain't about to stop me. I don't care who you put in front of me. And watching that live while I was kind of going through my thing, it was like, oh this, hey, I coming, he come in and he coming here to stay for a while. That motherfucker came for sure. Traded to Phoenix and get a chance to

play with Ja Kid. Tell me what your thought process is leaving Orlando going to a dope city such as in Phoenix, Jason Kidd, one of another one of the top Usherlan point guards along with yourself, What was it like being out there getting a chance to run with Jay Kid. Well, I feel like at the point of where I was with Orlando that it had ran his course. I wish, I wish he would have been different, but it had ran his course. Dr Rivers came in and

he was a coach. He was talking about having to rebuild my entire career, rebuild my name around the city. And I'm sitting here going, damn, I gave all these blood, sweating tears, played injury, and I gotta kinda go back and build my brand all over again in Orlando. And I was like, you know what, J Kidd did a hell of a job, you know, calling me and saying, hey, man, let's do it. And I was like, man to me, J Kid, one of the greatest ever played the game. We can go. We can go get some stuff done

out here in Phoenix. And I decided to go to Phoenix and the two thousand playoffs, your signs mashed up the Lakers against Kobe and Shock. What was that? Like? Weird? At hell? That was weird. That was weird because I'm playing against Shock in the playoff series. I never thought that would have happened, you know, when I first went into the league, and I'm with the Sons, and of course that's their championship. Years um, they had a lot of hiccups, uh in some games where they should have

lost and then Kobe comes through with a shot. I mean we had them in game three in l A or game four and he makes a shot over Ja Kidd to uh to win that game. We had to. We we led that game the whole game. And obviously you know the Portland Trail Bases situation where they were just smashing them and then they make the up, they make the run and sack the lot of the run. So I mean, to play against them, you can just

tell that they had the effect. You could just tell they were locked and load of to every area with role players, with stars, and we took them the six games, but it just wasn't enough. But J Kid and I were like, hey man, well we'll get back there next year. But you could just see the Lakers. The Lakers were coming. You just saw it early on. Yeah, So a combination

of injuries and early playoffs. X. Since you're off to New York and oh four, what's your thought process as far as knowing you and what you're capable of bringing and what you felt like you can go to the Knicks and accomplish. I think that was probably the most disappointing time to be in the city, on the biggest stage in the Big Apple and not be me. I'm out here like a seller myself on the biggest stage, and I'm like, man, why, I just wish that I could just get to a point where I could be me.

And I just pushed through it. But I knew I wasn't me, man, And I love New York. I felt like the fans deserved me at the highest level because you know how New York is, and playing for the Knicks was a huge honor. I didn't take that lightly. But I was also going home and like going, Man, I just hate I'm not me, I'm not myself. What did you do? What did you do to come back that? You know what I mean. You can keep trying, you can keep pushing, but mentally, what did you Because that's

what I like to have other people understand. There's so much fucking mental that comes along with this process. What did you do to to fight your way out of that or deal with that, or or handle that situation during that time? You know what I said to myself, I said, man, you're here, Let's make the best of it. Work your ass off, Give it all you got, don't need nothing in the tank and lit it and then you could you could go to sleep at night, you know, And and that's what I did. Man, it does funk

with you mentally because it's just you. I mean, the garden, the mystique of the garden. You got Spike Leo on the sideline, You got all these stars and they want to win so badly, and we weren't winning. And I was a part of that negative tradition of the Knicks haven't won in a while. And it just that bothered me too, because I felt like those fans, out of all the fans in the NBA, deserved to win. The loyal Did you have any clue what was going on

with Marbury behind the scenes while he was there? I didn't. I mean, Steph was. He and I hit it off really well when he came to the it came to the Suns from the net, and when he went back to New York, I felt like it was a chance of a lifetime for him because he was in his prime. He could still do it. He could still do it, So, I mean, who wouldn't want to go back home in the prime of their years? Even though he was playing for the Nets over New Jersey. It's different playing in

the garden. So I felt like he was on cloud nine going back, like I'm about to put on for the city, and I just wanted to help support that while he was there back home. So you inju your career in two thousand seven mentally, Like I said, I really like to know the mental approach. Where were you at? Well? Did you say it was time? Did they say it was time? What were your thoughts heading to Miami. I think that my my thought process was I had gotten

myself in a really good shape. Let's let's let's produce. Let's be consistent, and let's produce with the heat. I didn't know I was gonna start when I first went there. I didn't know what was gonna happen. I was just ready to take on whatever challenge they gave me and appreciate the opportunity and man, just go all out. I mean, I had definitely fallen from grace. I wasn't the same player,

but I felt like I could still contribute. So I wanted contribute to help shock being reunited with Shack, and then it helped the way because the way it was that dude and it was weird, man, because it was like I had gotten to the point where it had faded so badly that the respect wasn't really there anymore. It was like, that's Penny Hardaway, but that's really not Penny Hardaway. So it started to become the beginning of

the end. And I knew my time was number even though we were when the way got hurt and then Shot got traded for Shawn Mary, and I knew that it was over for me. I knew Pat Rally was going to rebuild and try to get hiring the draft because you had Mike Beasley, Yead, Derek Rose and those guys. So right before Christmas, Pat called me was like we're gonna go, young man, We're gonna rebuild. And I was like, okay, thanks for the opportunity, and I knew there was the

end right there. That was that was That was a tough day because I really wanted to end on my terms and I didn't end on my terms. Two thousand and seven. You retire that year, yep, I really. I didn't officially say I'm retired, but yeah, pretty much too. South and Step. It was the retirement touton. So initially, like I said, a lot of people don't get you know.

I think you you fall into a category because a lot of guys maybe not obviously not with your talent, but then not ending the way you planned it or the way you dreamed or the way it was supposed to end. How hard was that process post career? Uh, from a day to day standpoint, it was very hard to accept because the guys that were that were commentating, the guys that were kind of the guys that have to talk about guys like myself, they wasn't giving me

my just too when I was that guy. They were basically saying that I was basically who I was at that point my whole career. And I noticed, that's way different. You gotta still show me my love and my first seven years of my career. Come on, man, don't forget about those those years. And it almost made me feel like leaving the game that they weren't gonna wreck guys that in my prime, that I was one of the

better players that have ever played the game. And then I got injured, so that part of it was tough to handle. And I was just hoping that one day that I would get my dude, And now guys are definitely saying it more like, oh, you know Penny was was that guy versus now he didn't belong in the category with this person or that person. So I don't

appreciate that more. You belong to every category. Like I said, Jack and I before this show, when we found out we was gonna get you, I'm like, hell yeah, because, like I said, I just think there's a lack of appreciation for what came before us. And barring injury, the pace you were on, the level you played at people, you were making all NBA with m J, battling MJ,

being MJ, holding your own, you know. So we definitely want to, you know, take our hats off to you because you're someone that we looked up to for sure, man, and you definitely did your thing. And I'm glad it's starting to come around because I think too often people forget and you know it, it was so long, it was pre social media, it was pre a lot of things. So sometimes talented people such as yourself that didn't in the right way the beginning gets you know, looked over.

But we definitely don't want to have that happen here, man, So we wanted to give you definitely a shoutou from that standpoint because you were a motherfucking killer bro straight up. And you know, it means more than me coming from you guys than somebody that don't know the game, because you guys were balls. You guys understand the game and we all have a mutual respect. But I know you guys ain't gonna give credit where credit is and doue y'all are as where as they come. So to hear

that from you guys, I definitely appreciate that for sure. No, we appreciate you. Man. So post career two thousand eleven, you touched on it a little bit. A childhood friend, Desmond Merryweather, convinced you to come back and help him walk us through that process because to me, it's it's very heartfelt process. But you experienced success right away coaching. Talk to us about both of those, you know what.

So what was so crazy is that we had like an alumni game my middle school to my high school. If you played at the middle school high school, played the game. After that game was over, Desly came up to me and was like, man, I'm really not feeling well. I go to the keemos I don't want to sit on the bench. It's kind of tough. If you can just come help me with my team, just until I can kind of start to feel better. And obviously I did. I was like, man, I'm not doing anything, I'll come.

When I went into the building and saw the team, the team was like a championship team already, and all I needed to do was just add a little structure, some discipline, and a lot of love to some hood kids. And DA's was already giving him love. But he was sick. So I got in there and man, this dude is fighting and battling. Man how to take a time out to go throw up out to coming from Keybold and come back to the bench. And I was like, man,

I gotta, I gotta, I gotta help this situation. And that one year or that one week or that two week turned into three years of being the middle school coach, uh and Desmond is just fighting and still battling through. The kids didn't know the magnitude of what was going on with this man until the third year. He wouldn't tell him. He wouldn't tell them that he was sick. He wouldn't tell him the magnitude of what was going on.

And man, that whole experience really taught me a lot about me, taught me a lot about love, taught me a lot about situation circumstances. And I never thought would have been a middle school coach, But we took this group of kids who were in gangs, who were street cats, who were not really thinking about school, not even really thinking about going to college, maybe a couple of them, to having a whole bunch. I feel like, we're all going to college. We all want to be something better

than what we wanted to be before you got here. Uh. And you and Desmond are the great role models. Y'all make us want to be better. And that alone made me feel really good because I knew that we had changed the culture in our neighborhood from thinking about being in the streets to one day being on Wall Street. That's my mentality to those kids, and that's what I really wanted to do. And they did it, they believe, and all of those kids, with the exception of two,

all went to college. I those three teams, and that is a success versus what would have happened if we wouldn't have come back and cared about them doing that. Uh. That catapulted to AU. So we want to start AU program so that these kids could get national exposure. We knew that they could play, but we wanted the coaches in the country to see them play and for them to get rankings and get their names out there. And we built a great program and then that went on

to high school and then from high school. Now I'm here, man. But the whole entire situation of coming back home and getting back into my neighborhood, not just any neighborhood, but my neighborhood was man so gratifying because most guys ain't going back to the hood. Jack he can understan you know, you know he in the hood. He touched his kids lives and talked to him and mentored all the time.

To be back there everything. It means everything. So for me to physically be there every day for them, uh, they really appreciated that, man, And it's been it's been

a great ride. Well I can imagine, I can I can imagine if I had a coach or even an NBA player, let alone Penny Hardaway coming back to him, coming back to us, giving us the knowledge, spending his time like we I know my outlook and and and my my dreams will making to the NBA would have been more touchable if I would have baby to experience that as a as a as a on kid. You know what I'm saying. It worked out for me, but I didn't believe it. Other people believe more in me

than I did myself. But if I had actually had the NBA pairer come down and talk to me, give me pointers in high school, man, that would have done wonders for me. So you what you're doing for them kids, Man, that's priceless. Bro. You know I appreciate him. I'll take that. I'll take that at the heart to man because coming back home. Man, your city needs you, Bro, your city

needs you. I mean giving money. I've given money since ninety three, but to actually be there physically, to touch, to talk, to be a father's figure, to be a mentor, to be a coach, to be a counselor just to listen.

I have to make deals with these kids to say, hey, man, if you could just not get angry, then then too with the teachers, and I got you in this area and then and then if you're gonna get angry, makes you just ask to teach you to give you five minutes and I'll go to the teacher and go, Okay, he's having problems at home. He has eleven siblings. It's eight different fathers. Four the fathers might be doing for his siblings and nobody's doing for him, and he's mad

and jealous of his siblings. He might come in mad because he hadn't eaten and he was hungry, and he was mad. Then nothing was happening for him. So I'm doing deals in the schools. But I started feeding them in the morning, feeding them out of school, feeding them at night to make sure that they got good square meals. And these kids were just they were all over the place. So I had to start making deals with them to get them locked in, and they started understanding what I

was saying. Man. So the beauty of all the inside part of it was it's definitely it's been worth it. I think that's beautiful. And obviously you explained how much you know, effort you put in, and I'm sure how much they appreciate it. Tell are like, what did that mean to you though? Because like I said, I get a chance to coach my kids and there's nothing like it.

I think it's it's amazing. It's just exciting for me as when I played, being able to coach my kids and see them succeed at something they love and appreciate and get better. What did all everything you did and everything you're doing for kids, What does that do for you as a man. It's to me, it's just showing that I made my grandmother proud because she told me, if you ever make it, don't never forget what come from. That's that's that's saying with me forever. So for me,

I don't walk around with a badge. I just know, man, I did something to help my city and my neighborhood, and I did something to help motivate them. It wasn't with the money. It was me in the hood. Every day I'm driving Bentley's in the hood, I'm driving Rovers in the hood and they're seeing this and touching this and dreaming through that. I'm just saying, I'm driving by

the apartment that I lived in. I lived in like six different sections of apartments in the whole neighborhood, and me and my mom we were like all over the place. But I'm driving by these same places that I grew up in bro In Bentley's and Ranges and going to these kids to say, hey, man, I used to live there.

I used to live there, and look where now. So for me, it's just man, I thank god they have the opportunity to even come back because by my career being cut short, I was actually able to do this talk to us to the bit. I mean, it's it's you've touched on a little bit, but it's full circle. You're literally back where you started at coaching at Memphis. How did that come about? Well, obviously the team was to have a success. We had just gotten a legendary coach,

coach Tubby Smith. Fans were getting a little restless because we had had a few years of a down season, and this is a basketball city. They don't really want the Tigers to be down. The Grizzies can be down a little bit, but the Tigers, the Tigers can't be down. It's just that's the Cities team. And and and and I guess at the time where the group that I had, I had a group of kids that I started within

sixth grade. That group was actually all seniors at the time, and it was actually the time that I was really trying to figure out what I wanted to do. I told desmid that I was gonna stay with that group of kids until they graduated. And the time that the job opened up for the University Memphis at the same time as it was for the kids who were seniors to graduate. So the time and on that couldn't have been more perfect for me. Beautiful, talk to us. You

touched on a little bit. Twenty five years later. You guys just said you just released a shoe one cent. Talk Talk to us about where's that right now and how you feel to know twenty five years later you still have one of the dope at shoes. Well, no, man, I owe not you a lot because they hung in there with me. They stuck with me. They kept building my brand with my shoes. I actually have had a different shoe drop, a purple shoes drop every year over

the last ten years, twelve years. They're droppings of the shoes, even if it's new shoes or if they're remaking the phones in different colors. Man, that's that's love. That's love right there. Man, to still be relevant when kids that are in today's age didn't even know who it was. Of course, they have YouTube and they can go on there, but to have shoes still being dropped to this day. Man, that's that is love. You know you got a dope shoe when you could wear on and off the court.

You mean, them phones go with anything. So that's when you know you got a dope ass shoe. You could go straight from basketball practice, go home and shower hopefully to the club and their motherfucker to still be doing your things. And you know what's so funny is that I told Nike, they said, what do you want? What do you want out of a shoe? I said, Man, I really wanted to be like Jay's because Jay's you can wear them on the court and off the court. My shoes to be one on the court and off

the court. And that's what happened. Man, we built the shoe. I wanted that. I did want that. That's what's up. So we're gonna dump Ton said. Compare ns A basketball to the early nineties. This NCA basketball compared to the early nineties, Yeah, yeah, it was. It was a difference because guys stayed in school four years. Like Matt said, he stayed in school four years. It was rare for guys to come out early at all. Back in the early nineties and guys were staying longer, so it was

a better Um, it was a better game. It wasn't it was a veteran. It was kind of like it said, a veteran, a veterans league of college players because everybody had got a chance to play together two or three years, So the teams were better. Now now you're getting guys to come in for one and done and they've been taught to just be about themselves and really not even be about the school. Most guys go to school to

be go to school to be one and done. They just want to get numbers and then get to that draft. So the basketball is kind of watered down a little bit more now because the substances gone. Guys aren't staying two or three years. And I get it, you gotta go get that money. But there's a ton of talented players. But the nineties was just was better because the guys stayed in school longer. Even though you're still getting good

basketball now, it was just better basketball back then. What do you, obviously, as a head coach now in the Major D one program, how do you approach those one and dunes? Because I know U c. L A Was stuck a long time when we don't want one and dunes and you see they've been in the motherfucking toilet for years. How do you how do you approach as a head coach? Okay, well, if I'm gonna get this hell of a talent for a year, how do I make him buy into what we're trying to do and

that's gonna help propel him to a lot of repick? Well, I think you know, because I played in the league, I kind of identified with the one and done better than most coaches because we were then. We were the guys that had the game that we're gonna go to the draft, that we're gonna be, that we're gonna be selected. So I gonna get that guy and say, hey man, let me develop you, let me teach you, let me pour into you what I know. I don't care about you being a one and done because I know that

you're special talent. You can't help me win. I can't get a group of guys around you and we can go get this thing done. And that's what that's the way I approach you, Like I don't need you to be in school three or four years. And in today's league, the older you are, the more you're not gonna get drafted. So my job if you're if you're that type of dude, I need to get you out of here in one year anyway. And that's what I tell those kids, that's

what's up. Who better to teach them? If there was one plan that you could play with in your career that you didn't play with, who would it be back in the day, back in the day or just anybody? Anybody? Man, that's a tough one. I'm a fan of. Probably probably because of probably because of my mental Yeah, I would have loved to play with with with Magic Lebron because those are big guards. I would have loved to play with those guys in their prime. It was me and

my prime. I mean I thought that that'll be sick y'all followed the same category, all the same category. Man. Imagine that that ship who was who was in a poison point guard that you every time he played on him like it was time to go. You had to get on top of it, like you have to get the roll. We just had that dude right there, hey g P. As they came dog that dude he did. I never saw him take one game off I never He always was on a million when it came to

getting at you. So when you played him and you had to bring it, Bro, he he was gonna respect you. He was gonna dog you if you didn't bring it. Yeah, I know he didn't take a light on nobody know Which teams did you enjoy playing. I enjoyed playing the Bulls because they were like, they were great. That was one game I look fortunate every time with m J. Scotty, that whole little era with that those Bulls teams, because you knew that if you beat them that you had

done something major. Like there was one team that I look forward to playing it every single time. Who were some of the younger players in today's game that that that caught your I obviously Zion, y'all everybody say joy what y'all didn't do? Man, I gotta I gotta close look at you. Being here in Memphis and I went to some games and I saw how he played. I was like, this dude got it. He got the infected bro. Yeah,

he knew he got it. I watched it in person too many times and I was being very critical to see I want to see what this. I knew he could play. But man, he got he got it. He definitely got it. I'm trying to think who was young players Jason Tatum, Yeah, yeah, Jason. I've been watching him since eighth grade, been competing against him, and I knew that he would be who he was. But proud to see him there. I don't know why I'm going blank, man, because I'm a huge fan of a lot of guys

in the league, but both got to jump out. Those guys shomped out, like right away. Is there anybody that you have seen since you've come and going in the NBA um that resembles your game at all? You think? I think in transition, maybe maybe Ben Simmons and transition, how you pushed the tempo. I'm talking about how he pushed the tempo. I don't know. I ain't say about everything else, but to me, it's a it's a big guard and I love Ben, I mean, but how he

pushed the tempo I think. I don't I don't know anymore big guards that are just really just pushing the temple that it's beautiful. I love Ben Simmons too. I don't give a fun what no one says about his shooting. Once if if he can figure that out, I think it's gonna be a real problem because everything for as big as he is, his vision, his handle, his his ability to get to the basket. I don't give him

this unmatched. His finesse side is a lot like pennies. Yeah, what I meant, That's basically what I meant when it came to there. But that's where it stopped. Okay, okay. I know you listened to hip hop. I know you're a big time music guy. Your name been name dropped in a lot of songs, favorite songs. Have you've been named dropped in? Man ship? Well, you know the home of Yo Gotti. He didn't, he didn't drop my name.

That's what I got. I gotta drop Yo Gotti. But uh, that would be that would be the top, because you know, we was going to raise in the same hood and kind of made it out of the mud. So I gotta go with I gotta go. I gotta go with Yo Gotti. Though if I know your got is from the same hood, I ain't know that. Yeah, yeah, dope, dope. Hey, back when you were playing who were you listening to to get ready for games? I was listening to Jay You know, Jay and Jay and Biggie and you know

them guys. Was the was them dudes back then though, like still all still those those cats. And then of course you know you were listening with West Coast it was it was Pocket Snoop, and then East Coast it was it was Jam, Big and Nasar. Those were the cats. Um I love it. Oh man, wow, man, your top five, you're top five. I think I think Jay, yeah, Big Paul and everybody top five yea. And then I'm giving oslove. I'm I'm giving and and I ain't mad at Snoop

bro Hell yeah. Longevity at exactly it means a lot, it does. I know some cat came to me it was like, what about l L He had more longevity than anybody when it comes to l made it respect us there but and I'm not saying that he's not, but in my top five, that's that's that's it. That's solid. Now, seeing that you're coaching, you gotta kind of stay hip to ship because you you know, you're around a bunch of teenagers who's artists or songs on repeat for you

right now. J Yeah, Drake really is on him and him a little baby right now. Two artists that are really on fire right now. Definitely on fire. Okay, Um, we always asked this questions, so I guess and once we asked this question, just before you answer, when you answer the question, if you have any plugs on your answer, then we have to use them. Okay, we need it, We have to. Okay, who do you think should be a guest on our show on All the Smoke? Man?

You guys have had so many people our first year, Babe, we just gets you started, y'all rolling. Um, let's see. I think that if I was watching the show, it wouldn't be an athlete, it would be somebody else, because like somebody on the level of of a Jay Z or Will Smith. Yes, yes, yeah like that, Yes, yeah, I think that your fans and plus me, I'm a fan. I would love to see that and see you guys kind of ask them questions on how they feel the

out sports. You know what they did? You know, I think don't get either one of those guys on there, that's amazing if you got if you gotta plug on either sentence, who is in your eyes the most underrated player, uh in the game right now? Most underrated player? I think Drew Holiday. Everybody, everybody, everybody says Drew Holiday. That's insane. The reason why I say that is because I watched a lot of film on him. I know Patrick Beverley is known as that dog, but he does what Patrick

Beverley does, which is a huge compliment. Quieter, quietly, quiet he gets it and he's hard to guard. Dog, He's hard to guard. I got another question. I want to pick it back that who in your time was one of the most underrated players that people are like, oh, but you're like, no, that motherfuck go Let's see who is Who's the most underrated player back then? Man, it's so many guys. Man, I'm trying to think guys that you were saying he was just okay, but he was

really nice. I don't even think people knew how nice Nick Van Next, it was even though he was an all star, Tricky Nikki was. They don't even mention him when he comes to the top guards, but Tricky Nikki was killer him in college. Hey, that dude right there, man, he was serious. Yeah, it was. We all don't quarantine right now. Um, besides working out what are you binge watching? May you know what? For a minute, I watched Tiger King Old everything, All Americans Everything. I watched everything on

Netflix that you can watch, Bro. I didn't watched the documentary about the basketball players and Saying Quentiny that Katie produced. I'm watched everything. I've watched everything on Netflix, Bro, I watched it all. Yeah, every Yeah. What's your what's your what's your favorite quarantine snack while you're binge watching? Man? What's my favorite snack? Probably I'm probably on the Pringles Bro, I'm a Pringles dude. Flavor Flavor barbecues fired him by

the sour cream and chides was fired too? Favorite? Uh? Favorite retro sneaker, not including your own? Probably the Force one, Man. I really like the Forced I'm a Force guy. I like them retro forces. Man. Yeah. Yeah, Well we've come to Jack's favorite segment. Like he said, he's been missing out for a while. But I'm involved in this begging segment too, So Jack, go ahead and beg for the both of us. My brother, Well, this is my boy

a long time. I never asked him for nothing, but I have to ask, either, is it possible that you can make this happen for me? I needed either paras signed shoes or signed jersey either or I needed for the carib I gotta have you up in the crib. Man. You got both, bro both, y'all got both. I got that. That's man. I appreciate that. I say that, but I need it for the carib I appreciate. Yeah, that's easy, man, come on, Bro's easy. We appreciate that. Man. Hey, man, Well,

thank you for your time. Thank you for joining us today. Good luck once we get commencing and get back on the court to your upcoming seies. Like Jack said, me and Jack gonna come through. I got a couple of friends out in memph Is still I need to come visit, so we're gonna come check a game out and uh root for y'all. Man, But thank you for your time today. Now. I appreciate y'all so much. May number little, May anything

y'all need for me, y'all got it and appreciate. And just know if you got any questions on any guys, you know I'm working at the AI game. You know I got your players, So just let me know if you need me to do anything for you. Got it, got you now, appreciate you all. That might be a violation anyway, that's a wrap special court Quarantine edition UH with one of my favorite players, Jack's favorite player, Penny Hardaway. We appreciate your time. You can catch this on Showtime Basketball,

YouTube and all platforms, streaming podcasts, all of them. See you'all next week. It's something about how this place forms a different kind of person. On my high school team, we have five guys make the NBA. We had the County rock at you mentioned French Shorty's County. People know what it's about. It's the meta of basketball. There are those who come before us, upon whose shoulders we stand here for this area. You have to have tough skin. The gym became the thank you eg County guys provide

buckets for America. Prince Georgian packs a lot of power, a lot of character. It's nothing that you can do to stop that competitive and we're pushing the community and a culture full. There's this in the water. H This life was all I ever wanted. I'm not leaving, not yet. I was hoping you'll say that we gotta hit the streets, make some money. Paple like us, Let's destroy people like him. Back up. Get Showtime free at showtime dot com.