Welcome to All the Smoke, a production of The Black Effect and our Heart Radio and partnership with Showtime. So seventh round pick out of Savannah to a Hall of fame. Three times super Bowl Champ talked to me about Alway, McCaffrey, Terrell Davis talk to me about those Super Bowl winning Bronco teams. I remember going to when I got drafted, going to the Broncos. I remember I was like, man, I was thinking myself, say, man, John Hill, wait my quarterback.
First thing, my sister said, Shannon, don't go out there bull drive with no John Hilway. You don't know that man like that. What I do, that's just that's here. And for some reason, guys, he took a liking to me. Maybe maybe because you know, I, Joe and I kept the locker room. I mean, I'm a seventh round draft pick. They gave me the number one. So basically I'm just a camp body. That's what that's That's what I'm supposed
to be. And I just remember my brother saying, look, just know what you're supposed to do when you get your opportunity. He said, Now, John, they always gonna be looking for you. Because he knows, big bro. Yeah. He was like, Johnny, we're gonna be looking for just be ready. So I'm trying to cram, and so they got me learned that I'm supposed to learn z. I'm supposed to learn to slot. I gotta learn all these positions, and I'm struggling. And I remember asking a guy. I said, Man,
what I got on this play? Right here? He said, run this, I run it. It's the wrong route now, yes, yes, here, And I'm fighting for the same job. So if I he could get me out of the way. But I swore to myself, I said, I would never ever do that to somebody. I said, if I'm secure in who I am and what I am, I don't need to be little for me to shine. And so I've always went out of my way. But when I got to Denver,
I was seventh round draft pick. I was a tight end, and it just so happens every tight end on the roster got hurt. Now I'm the biggest receiver, so I go in. I'm like to one. So by the time they moved me to the tight end halfway through the season, I'm two oh five. So I'm playing tight end at two oh five man. They ragged all of me. They're throwing me all around in practice, and so I'm thinking to myself, I remember all this, how they throwing me around.
So guess what happened after the run blocking drill, pass catching drills. Oh, now let's see who wants to go because everybody did. Nobody wanted to go Agive Clarence k or to Mobili because they were great run blockers. So now I'm looking. I said, all you guys that was counting, didn't want to go against c K and Orson, y'all need to see me at the lane? Who kill it? Wad Philip to the defensive coordinator. So they started practicing me. So what I would be I would be the tight
end from the opposing team. So Scott, I'm gonte, So I'm not tight in. I'm cooking. You throw the ball, Throw the ball up in the wold. I'm putting the football. All of the stacking the ball, I'll do with everything. Way Phillis blows the whistle, he's a dan. Put his ass in the game, and let's see if they can cover him, because we can't damn put in the game. And as they say, the rest is far along was that this was my this was my rookie year, This is my rookie decor wait till wait Phillis come on
on the first team. All comments sense because I said, you got the comment sense and that's what and that and that's what, and that's what happened. That's kind of how my career started off. And then I just started building this this relationship with John. Every tough you know, every tough catch that needed to be made to make it every because you you can't get that trust in the game if he doesn't trust you in practice. So and then I started sitting there to him during the meeting.
I said, okay, well, okay, how you want me to how you want me to run this route? I said this, saying, go you know two out of four team he says, and he would tell me, He's like, okay, let's try twelve, knowing that come game time you're gonna be a ten. So don't shorten the practice because they'd be short that much in practice you're gonna be I'm not gonna be ready to throw. And so that was the hardest thing, is that learning how to control the speed at tight
end because they moved me from wide receiver. So I'm faster than all the tight ends, and so I was wondering, I'm winning in practice, but he's not throwing me the ball. And he says, it doesn't do you any good to win if I'm not ready to throw you the ball, because now by the time I'm ready to throw you the ball, the guy you you covered again. So now
you have to understand. So he's talking to me, he's talking through it, what he's seeing, what he wants me to do, how he wants me to run certain routes, and so I don't know if I can go to any of the cause he's very patient with me. So they put me in the game. They moved they moved me to a tight end, so they put me. The gan't on nothing. So I'm struggling trying to learn wide and see plays. So they put me in the game. They put me in motion the entire game in Denver.
As I run by alway, he returning around and timbory what I got. So I go by in motion. He telled me run the out round, go back to the huddle. So he called to play. Put me in motion again, run a corner blocked the end, so he did that for an entire game. I don't know how many guys would have had the kind of patients because not only he's telling me what I need to do, he also got to go through the reads. He got to worry about what defense they're running, where he's gonna go with
the football. But he took enough time and say, so you know what, So that just got okay, Now I need to get on top of this, and so I got more. I started watching more and more take I wanted to know as much as information as he did, and so it just got where were just like it was like second nature. So he had a large part to do with my success because he was very very patient with me. Dan drafted me Dan reads. He drafted
me um in the seventh round. But he said, look, his brothers and all pro it's got I mean, gotta be something. We're gonna find something. We gotta got something. So I was on all the special teams, you know, which was at the time wide receivers didn't play a whole lot. I was gonna kid man, head, bustle man. It's stack. Look here he was laying people. I was. I was going on the punt team. It's over. They couldn't do anything with me. I let they put they put the double lot there to put them head up.
I break through that incredible hole. Get them horses, get him get But you know it's different now, you don't really try to for me. I would look at I was looking at that, I was looking at that kills. Yeah, it's different. That's why it's so hard to evaluate guys, because back when I played, they were trying to put there, trying to twist you. You run that seven route like guys, I've never seen to run a one step slant roper.
But you know why because they're not word about that kind of punishment that there was doling out back then. What you're running one step slaying right? It was over. It was over. But now, so that's why it's so hard for us to evaluate. When they said, well what about this guy? What about that guy? The rules have
been changed so much. The way they attacked the quarterback, the way that our defenseless receiver, like, what was the defenseless receiver he got on him and show the pass he's not defens Yes, you're on the football field, you should expect to get hit. But and then and then you know air came later, to real came later, and then we started Mike Shanahan with my offensive coordinator. When I first got there, he leaves comes back as the head coach. And then Mike was tough the expectations. He
expects you to make every play, no excuses. He came in, you catch the pass finished forty yards, so he was way down the field, so we had to catch. I might catch a five yard route taken, but I had to run forty yards because that's what Jerry nice den and so that's what that was. Still from San Francisco. So that was our mentality, is that get home. We were always trying to hit our head on the gold post, and he brought a mentality of how we practice, how
we met the expectations, have fun. But the thing was I just remember he's always saying, okay, eighty four, get him going, because that was you know, in in training camp office according to Gary Kubiak, in my position coach, he's an eighty four. We need to strike up the band to day. So now I'm talking eight fo. Get somebody today. Somebody gonna get it God today. They don't
want to see eighty four. Y'all don't want this, y'all don't want these kind of problems, and man, it would get it would get going because and that that's that's that's what it was about. You guys have been on team where you're really really close, and we were really really close. We we bowled, you know, like I said, we go go bowling together. We did almost everything together in training camp. You know, John, like I said, John would come up, guys will come Overen, just showty face.
You don't understand how important chemistry is. Those are normally championship quality teams. At least you have the ability to win a championship those kind of teams. You know, I was fortunate enough to play on the team that one. I was on the team that I thought we had the talent, but we just didn't. We didn't vibe like our chemistry wasn't like that. So I tell people all time, it's more people, Oh, chemistry, that's a class that you're
taking high school in college. No it's not not no, no, no, no, no, you can't. You guys gotta believe, sincerely believe that that guy has my best interests and he got to know that I have his best interests and the common goal, like and I tell you know, when I talked to young guys, said, look, whatever you want to do, I got no problem with that. If you want to be go to the Pro Bowl, you want to be all this, or you want to be m v P, be that,
but not a the expense of the team. Yeah, not because if you want to be that, I know you're gonna put the time, and I know you're gonna put the effort in, You're gonna put the training in, you will put the studying in. But not at the expense of the team. And that's maybe what I butted here with guys. What I know. All they cared all yeah, all they cared about with staff. They cared nothing about the team. That that rubbed me the wrong way. Don't
I don't want to part. I don't know. Talk to us a little bit about your impact on the game that I think still exists today because you were the flies must I mean outside of your game, you were flying before flying was flying sports with the glasses you had the motherfucking Jerry Curl dripped like my pops had. Look wet but it was dry, but it was dry. Put off the wet look but the dry but it
was drying was getting next product called next. I'm gonna tell y'all something that I never told no about it. Then this this is the person I love you. You remember the head mand that I used to go around the neck. It wasn't intended to be war rounding it was. It was no no. I used to wear it on the head like y'all do the NBA because the girls juice. I'm not lying, and then put out put the helmet on and mess around and slipped down to the neck and it just became fashionable. Let me just roll with
That's how that happened. I'm not lying. That's how That's how the hair very was more running, nick, I never told nobody else that in my last y'are the first one to getting that truth. My dad, my dad had a dripper. My dad used to have the tale around his neck so the ship didn't get on his clothes. So should I That's what I thought, Yeah, a little drift, no dog, no dog. I was offended when Coming to America came out and they were sitting there ears on
the couch man's I was offended by that. Man. I was offended by that movie. I really was. Anybody way the colonel talking about you. I'm a Florida point man. And you know we we have swag. We haven't talking to y'all, you know, and but the but the lot of it, oh man, And y'all ain't gonna believe this when I tell you, But it's the one truth. I never talked drunk on the field, man. I never spoke to my opponents. I never telling anybody ever played, never dog.
I spent games to the medium. But I had the mantra off I talked drunk caller and I never did. So where is it coming? Is? That's not true about you happening out the limo, running the fold where the folks. It's always it's always a little true to every life. That it was a literal I did. I did. I did catch the rabbit that day. I ran my butt off, But I didn't leave in the come to rapid. I ain't leaving the limo that day. I went. I did what everybody else did. It was normal. But I left
right out that ram because it was what. Am I gonna lay there and put two twenty five and do that. I ain't nobody laying across my arms and no games bench press, and I ain't no hide jump. I'm not hie jumping for I ain't gotta high jumping no game. So I wasn't doing none of the foolish stuff at the comeback. I just wanted to run my part because I was the number one coming out in my position. So why would I risk at a chance that they had nothing to prove of no comback. I just wanted
there to put it in work. No, I actually I want to sue because I went for business. I went enough. I want enough, I want enough, suit and boot it because I went for business. And I remember when I was in the big room with all the players. Dude, somebody from the league came over to me. He said, excuse me, sir, there are no agents, a lot of inside and I said, I'm gonna player. You played for both of our favorite teams. I think, did you win
a championship with Dallas? Yeah? With the Niners. Yeah, we want one with the forty nine. And then to let them know the jack is a Dallas fan, I'm a Niner fan. What was it like playing in those times? You played with too great I mean Aikman, Emmett, Michael Irvin, and you went over with Steve and Jerry John talked to us, Well, my finnest place to ever played was Atlanta. That was home. You know, when somebody draft you, that's that's your home, that's your that's your blood. Man, Like
Atlanta drafted me. So I'm forever in debt. And I loved Atlanta. But they wasn't. Uh, they didn't have the expectation of winning. And I was a winner and I wanted to win. So when I was a free agent, they ain't even offer me. Man, they just let it ride out. So I ended up I was getting ready to go to mine because I went on a little tour just like a little bit and tool. Everybody was trying to put it to see who's gonna get primed, and uh, I can remember getting ready to go to
the Dolphins. I even had Dolphins cleats made like like Nike had made my Dolphins c and they said, where you going? Is that what I'm going over to? Man, I'm gonna do the dog one thing. I would have met with Eddie de barnlow man and he said you want to do this? I said, yeah, yeah, I want to do it. So we even had a handshake agreement. I got on the plane and went back before I landed. Before I landed, I think bet so I hit the dolphins about three yards passed. So they was blowing my
phone up. Now they want to do the deal. Now they want to come up with the money. But I was always been a man of my word. If I said it's gonna be that, so I had already gave Eddie Baro my word. So I went to San Francisco, man, and I remember the first that practice going in there, me with the head coaches, like we have no individuals on the team. You know, you got to coincide with what everybody else done. Like it kind of offended me because if you have you haven't done your homework, you
would expect to get prime. And I introduce you to deal on I'm trying to show you who I really at. Your private just comes out on Sundays. Man, that's just my marketing. That's just that's just what I did to get my paper. So man, I go out on the practice field. Jay got on red tights, Rickard war has got a black taxes on a kid, and that I said, Well, I thought we was a team. I thought we were a team. I thought everybody did the same thing. So
they kind of wrought me the wrong way, man. But we put in some work that year and we won the super Bowl, and that was one of the best years individually I think I've ever had, and I love it. But I just was empty, man, I was empty. As we want the super Bowl, man, I would right home. First point out in the locker room, first one in the hotel room. Ain't even go out club, ain't even gonna kick it. I'm just sitting on managing my bed like dang. That ain't that Ain't what I thought it was.
I knew right then I needed the challenge, man, So I needed a challenge. So then that's why that took me to Dallas. I wanted to go prove I could get you all there. Now I'm gonna go get you all back. Then. I wanted to prove that. Did you thank him for that, Jake, Man, I'm gonna thank him now. I appreciate it, cause I've been adopting the cowboy fast as a baby. But people blow up to San Francisco. I think you played with somebody from my hometown named
Tim mccayo. It was in Atlanta. In Atlanta, you played it, Yeah with Tim was crazy. Tim was a trip. Man, I remember a trip. I remember your man still. I remember man playing with his cat and we had a great Yeah. I think I had like seven picks. He made it. Hats man has six, and every time he picked it he brought. I used to say, Man, when he played black jack on the way, you win, should get twenty one. You get that ball to twenty one. A good things happened. Every time people gotta pick. They
got at the twenty one and good things happened. He did pick it, run allay across the feeling pitch for the ball, and we house that thing. But Tim Man, I remember I was trying to blow him up so he could make the Pro Bowl with your boy. And we just on the ter ofview and that. They said, what's you like about Tim game? Tim's game? I said, what Tim does this? He does this? Tim does this? They said, well, Tim, what you like about prime game? He's like, well, he ain't better than me. Don't almost
swum doing the interview. I'm not lying, man, I'm this dude flipped out on me. Man. I could not believe that. Man, Yeah, I ain't. I ain't ever met him. And I heard a lot of stories just like that about him. I know, I brothers and everybody, but he from my hometime. But I heard the same type of stories about it. Man. Yeah, man, he had a little jellous spirit in the man with You don't know why, you know, it was all good, but that that's what was. It was a trip. Who
was who was your favorite matchup? Who was the one man? Man? You know, Jerry, Jerry, right, Michael Irvin, all of them? Man, Because I was I was coming to see him. You know, it wasn't that it went back then. We we we went to see the main dog the dog on dog, the dogs on dog, like like it used to be back in the day of the NBA Dog the Dog. Yeah, yeah, I was like it now, like LaRod, I want to see you with Kauai. You know, I like, I like to see I want to see dog on dog. That's
what you selling me on TV. I want to see that. And it was me and Jerry got down me and got that. Now they sending me dream that I don't get to see it. Yeah, they don't sell me the dream. I want to get Mike put in work with everybody. Okay, you were sitting the bulls, you were gonna see Mike, you was gonna see code. You know, you was gonna see the dogs, Dogs gonna dog. It's a little different
game now, you know. I played, you know, fifteen years and had a had a contract for two more years, but I happened to luck up and when the championship will golden stating, I retired early because I wanted to spend more time with my kids. I felt like I was missing a lot of important times in their lives because I was in one city there and another. So talk to me about what retirements like, because that's to me, that's the best part, is being able to get up
every day and be with your kids. See. I come from the broken background, so I've always wanted to have a structure, you know, household, you know what I mean, as far as the wife, kids, growing up, being in your kids life, you know what I mean, because I didn't have that, um and I and you realize you're like, damn, man, I'm missing so much time. And thank god I had two girls first, you know what I mean, So I kind of got spoiled and and had my son last.
So I get to see, you know, the first time you get to go to the party, you know, the first time, you know, he waking up screaming. Adam Jones, you know, so were Ryan were Ryan Foewelers together every day. So it's a venture just to be and watch and see the growth and see like, hey man, I wanted to was like that bad, so you know what I mean. Like the other day he set up a ball in the living room, the little tea ball thing, and it was it wasn't the tea ball, but it was a
dodge ball smack boom buzz. Wanted to look glass. But you know it two years anything, you know what I mean, But like it's amazing man, and and and that's probably the best feeling in the world, you know, besides running out of that tone, you know what I mean, and eager to see, like dam I want to see how good he could be, you know what I mean. That's moments you can't get it back, bro, you know what I'm saying. That that's price, that's priceless moments. That's that's
that's what you're doing. And for men like you said, we come from broken homes. You know, me and you broken come from broken homes. I I didn't have my father and obviously you know what I'm saying, I don't. I don't have all my kids in the house, but just being uh, you know what I'm saying, having those experiences with him, you know what I'm saying, knowing that you didn't have them with your father, you know what. Saying that means a lot to me. So I understand
totally where you're coming from. But beside, besides your kids, I don't know if any kids play sports, but you do camps, You do all kinds of stuff involving kids. Talk about that. Oh yeah, so um, I do all of well most of the camps because all of a sudden, under them and don this is my father like a father figure to me, or we just had him all, we just had him all. Whatever you want to say, like I bleed, breed, bleed and sleep whatever that man says right there. But he's a great person to me.
He'd always been there for me, you know what I mean, he was some most of the success that I've had in my lady career comes from what he's done from me and the jobs I've got, you know, the phone calls and relationship you know, because it was the time, know, like nobody wanted to take a chance on me Dion. I went with D. I stayed with D for like two months. He called Mike Zimber called Mike Zamber. I came here and worked out with the Bengals were Actually
he called him the first time and called me. He's like, Yo, they want you to come right now if you want to work out, Like man, Bro, I've been out for a whole year. I ain't no shape to workout. He was like, Yo, you're gonna tell him you ain't gonna work out. So I was like, yeah, I go. So I came up to Cincinnati. Bro. It was twenty two degrees. Bro just had seven inches of snow. They shove have on the field. Office Like, come on, let's go with me.
I'll never forget this was me. Uh the Jones kid, the wine receiver who came from the jag War was man. It was so called. I ain't even finished the workout, so I end up. I live. So so I'm gonna saying m Marvroman. He say, look, you got three weeks, man, We're gonna bring you back in three weeks. You better be ready in three weeks. So I wouldn't have worked out for three weeks. And that that started my story
here back in two thousand nine. But if I wouldn't have had the relationship with with Dion, if if I wasn't taking the time to set up different things and treat people right, you never know who you're gonna need, you know what I mean. And and that's what I try to teach my kids, like you never know, like it can be that you would never you would never know who knows who know? You know what I mean. Like for instance, I was doing the wrestling right, so the lady, the lady who owned ten A was Dixie.
So Dixie was best friends with Jerry Jones. That's how I got the Dallas She asked, I can't. I cannot make this up. She said, if you could choose one team who you wanted to play for? I said, the Cowboys. Swear to God, God strike me down right now. The next day, I had Jerry on the phone. He was like, so you really want to come here? Like yeah, now I was in Dallas like two months before anybody knew that. I don't even go into Dallas, you know what I'm saying.
Always had in prospered Texas, man, like, so like every my life has been like because you know, I had up and down, like and I ain't shoying away from I like fighting, I've had this and that go on. But like the people that that I've treated and the people that I've met, I would say that I built relationship to it just because of how you treat people. Man. Yeah, yeah, you know at that time, I have been suspended a
whole year, you know what I mean? Like really I was thinking like do I really want to do this again? You know what I mean? Right? Is it word? Going through all that ship again? Yeah? We you know, we were similar, you know, you know with the broad ship with me. You know, I know I missed at least three solid All Star games just because I ran into the stands and punched the fan. They stopped looking at my play, just like they did you. It's not looking
everything you've done. They stopped looking at your play. My Ricky. Yeah, I was Ricky Ell the year. Well, I ain't made defense Ricky year, but I was Special Team with Guild year. My second year, I was second team All Pro. I had just was I was just buying the sign a sixty million dollar extension and then that's when I got into Trumpor and Vegas. Then so I get in Trump
and Vegas and missed two of my prime years. I was twenty three, twenty four, twenty five when I went to Dallas, I think, but like I missed a lot of my prime like where when I was I could wake up in the morning and run FO to five with just like without scritching and not doing nothing. You know I'm saying. That's why I call him baby Dan. That's why I called him baby d Like like I said, I've been knowing I've been knowing him for a while, you know what I'm saying. We know a lot of
the same people. A lot of home was around the A. But I've been on I've been called I've been calling that baby deal. But like I said, we are very similar. You know what I'm saying. We went we went through a lot of stuff, but that that that's not who we are. You know what I'm saying, And it's it's good. That's one reason why I wanted to have you on the show. Just like I told you, you know what that Yeah, we came back involved in our later careers.
Thought yeah, yeah, we were making probols at thirty two years old. Man, Yeah, yeah, yes, sir, yes, sir, don't stop. You're big and and and have been speaking and outspoken on mental health. And that was the one thing when I got a chance to talk to PG while he was in the bubble because he was dealing with some mental health and anxiety and depression and separation. How serious is this because as black men first and foremost, and as black athletes, it was looked down before before as
almost a weakness to talk about issues you had. Obviously we're passed that and it's more talked about these days, But what is your take on it? Being someone that has suffered from it. There was a lot of guys, you know, uh, struggling in that bubble, and there's guys in NFL struggling right now, so you know, it's not
a game. It is serious. But like that's why I talked about, you know, marijuana is because when I was playing for the Dolphins, that's when I realized something was going on, and marijuana was the thing that got me through that year. Like it is like that was the first time I was able to smile again and and feel again. And then you know, you get to the office. I got to the off season and I went to McClain hospital and I was there for three months in
the outpatient programs diagnosed with borderline personality sort of. The best way to describe is like an emotional disorder, being able to self regulate your emotions. Right, long story short. I took dialectical behavior therapy, that's a group therapy. I took mentalization therapy. I took self assessment, you know, one on one with Dr Gunderson. I did a clinical evaluation, neurological evaluation, just to see what was going on in my mind. And I was put in this program and
it changed my life. And there's so many of us that deal with this. Life is hard, you know, and if you don't have if you don't have a game plan around how you're gonna deal with stress, that stress can turn into uh mental health challenge, initial mental health issue for you. It may it may not be bipolar, it may not be borderline, it may not be anxiety, but if you don't correct these things, uh, then it can definitely hit you and hit you in a major way.
So you know, even now, like now, we got people dealing with anxiety and depression for the very first time. So I just think that you know, for me, I appreciate it, Paul George saying it, you know, because there's a lot of athletes dealing with anxiety, there's a lot of athletes dealing with depression or understanding being comfortable with who they are in this big space. So now you've got the Kevin Loves of the world, you got the Dak Prescotts of the world really using their platforms and
talk about and highlighted. We still talk about it wrong in the media. You saw what Skip Bayliss said after Dak Prescott came out. So you know, there's a there's a there's a long way to go, but I love, I love where where we're at right now. And once again lad by the athletes. So it used to be a taboo topic not to not to press too much in your personal life. Is this something that's ongoing or did you get it fixed when you win or is
this a daily still a daily battle for you? Now it's interesting, you know, because there's so many ways it can present itself. You know, mental health could present itself in over three different ways, but just one diagnosis. So for me, going through that process really gave me the skills and tools I needed to self regulated. So you know I could be in a moment and I'm like, well, with tools, with skills, do I have to regulate? You know what I mean? To manage this? Do I kind
of make it better? You know? I wanted to stay the saying, don't make it worse? So what I do now? And I'll go back to my last years in football, So what I did in the football season, I had a game plan. I knew that was the most stressful time of the year for me. So every every week I was sitting down with the mental health practitioner before practice, I would jump in the float pod after practice, jumping the float pod, like I was very intentional daily in
my mental fitness in the off season. In the off season, what I do is as needed. So I'll probably like once a month check in um with the mental health practitioner, or I might check in with a family member or friends just like yo, how you doing? He checked or he or she checking on me? And but part of my daily routine because I feel like you need to make deposits because something's going to happen, right Like who who would have known? We you know, this year would
have turned out the way it is? Like where you did you have the deposits that to be able to be strong enough through this. So meditation is big for me. Um being able to recover, get aways, turn off at night, you know, shut my brain off is important for me. So those are things that I do every single day to make sure I'm making those deposits. So when those stressful moments come up, I'm good, I'm ready to go.
I think the key you said if anyone takes what way the tools you need to handle the situation, because we're not we're not equipped with them. We we weren't raised with them. It wasn't something that was talked about. Showing emotion in our culture was a sign of weakness, no matter who you were. From a child to stop sucking crying to an adult, you know what I mean.
So now that we're in a where in a space that we can comfortably talk about it, it's the tools, like you said, that you learned from handling, doing your counseling, that that we're allowed you to get through the process. And not enough of us have that too. I was fortunate, I mean I may and I came from a you know, functioning drug addicts. My parents were functioning drug adics. Very abusive household. So I found marijuana at fourteen and smoked it from fourteen to this day, and that was really
At the time, I didn't know what it was. I just knew it was an escape for me. And as I got older, I realized, Okay, damn, I can focus, I can sleep better. You know, a lot of different things are coming from this. So that's why I was so glad when the medical research finally caught up, because I could have said everything it made me do until I was blue in the face, but until there was medical backup, medical research saying okay, well it does a B and C just like these guys are saying it
was doing. It wasn't doing any good. But I think if I didn't have cannabis, no bullshit, who knows what kind of deepened I would have went off of. Because you know, my life off the court was very well document. I was in a lot of ship off the court.
But you know, to be able to be on TMZ and all these blows and then have to play on ESPN that night, that focus is essential, you know, no matter what the fun is going on in your life, for that two hours, two and a half hours where it's on the football field, the basketball field, there's no
excuses and and my outlet is always being cannabis. So I'm very thankful now that, like I said, the medical research is catching up because I know a lot of these athletes, like you said, whether you use it or not, we need some sort of tools to deal with this ship because people think we're invincible because we have money. But that's the furthest thing from the truth. Yes, So is that is that why you're so passionate and investing in this space? Yeah? Yeah, because I believe in it,
you know what I mean. I'll be the first one I tell you I enjoy getting high, like the way it feels, but I'm more on the educational like I'm not a snoop, I'm not a rapper. I mean, it's okay to kind of glorify in that aspect, but I'm coming from an aspect of a former player, a father, and someone who coaches my kids right now, So I'm coming more on the medical side and understanding trying to remove the word high and explain that the medical benefits
of it in the way it makes me feel. And I think that's where we're finally starting to make headway because whether they like it or not, whether they keep find us a lot a lot of professional athletes use it and we shouldn't be penalized for it. As a receiver. Um, you know, you get teed off on. People always get to hit you. I remember I used to love the crack back, the peel back block. Do you have one particular peel back or crackback where you just suck somebody up? Man,
I got one to tell you. It was absolute fail. Man, I ain't. I got something that I really like, you know, just people out, you know, but I got one where as an absolute fail, I'll tell you. But it's actually we're playing Chicago at Chicago and this is my rookie year and I had to go in and crack um Lance Bridge, I'm just trying to Chicago there. He's from US so we played in high school at the same time.
He's from out my way. Okay, you know what you know, he's you know, he's a man boy, somebody you don't want to have to hit. Man. He saw me and he like, I'm coming down in motion, you know, my little slopan and my little short motion, you know, like I'm about to run my round I'm trying not to look at him, but I'm peeking on the inside of my eye and I was trying to die. Damn. I hope he don't see me. I hope you don't see.
Right before the balls snap, he looked me up, and he looked right at me, and he's just writing rapping the ball snap. He just ran right out and he diedose to play. He just ran around me, ran through me, maybe too, like I get tossed out on Monday. So yeah, that's like I just seen one. Like an old highlight tried to crack back on ray Lewis and he blinds out of ray Lewis, but still he was the one that still got sucked up. Yeah, bloody ray Lois. That's
another one. You don't you come into the NFL nearly two thirty nine running a four three eight at six four? What the hell is that? I mean, it's I just love hearing it because, like I said, football is my first spart I love football to death. Uh you know, I let the nation in touchdowns. I'm six seven and
I ran a four three nine my senior year. So like you were someone when I saw coming to the the league, I wish you to think like, man, if I would have stuck to it, you know what would have happened, Like I used to really watch you like damn, Like I would see the hit you take, like damn, my three inches arling, they would have really fucked me up on that one. Or just the way you were able to physically dominate dudes because we had a similar body style. So it was just so dope watching you do what
you did. And I wish, like I said in the opening, that you had a chance to win more, you know what I mean, and getting in playing playoff games and get a chance to really play for a ring, and the fact that you didn't, how tough did that way on you, you know, getting later in your career. I think the main reason I decide understand destroy it it was because I felt, I legitimately felt we had a
chance to win that ring. I mean, we had an offense that was putting up four to five yards a year on offense, and we had a defensive line I know, I mean we had the secretary too, but we had the defensive line that featured in Dominican Sue Nick Fairley, a young really young c. J. Moseley, like a mean defensive line like like old lines, quarterbacks are scared to come play you. That's all. That's what you need to
win the Super Bowl. You need you need that good D line, You need a defense that can hold up, and you got an offense that can score at will. You know, we had the makings and then when everything got blown up there towards the end, is really rebuild a mode. That's it's a wrap from Nick. Yeah, that's tough. Early on you. Uh you did something that you know I like to see. And because I'm always pro player and get you, you held out as a rookie to
sign a better deal. How how did that end up unfolding? Oh? Man, I vaguely even remember that. Uh what I do remember is that, you know, I just took the advice of my of my Asian bus cook at the time, and he was just he was just telling me, you know, this is this isn't the deal that we need to sign, you know, and I don't have the experience at the time. You know, That's why we brought him on board. You know. You know it's really just them me um not not
accepting anything less than what I was worth. And that's that's one thing I don't tell any player right now. Man, you know you got a team by the balls, like keep them, you know, take advantage that because once they got the other way around, you believe they're gonna exercise on you. So you win Defensive Rookie of the Year Pro Bowl soon after all Pro playing sixteen years, there's I guess it's more in the NBA now, is that this management and we kind of you know, we rest
and all this stuff. But for you to consistently play sixteen games every season in such a physical sport, I mean, we just gotta commend you for that, man, because that that ship is tough to do. You know, we play basketball, it's a little bit physical. But to be out there every single day and suit up as a football player, man,
that that that that that's that's tough to do. You know, it's it's it's funny you say that because you know, I sit back I watched games now, or if I'm at a game and I'm on the sideline and you know, guys are out there giving it everything they've gotten. All of a sudden, there's a tackle that's near you, and I can I can hear the contact. I see the physicalness of the game and I sit there and I think to myself, Man, how in the hell did you
do this for so long? You know, getting up every week. Man, you know, practice and you know playing on Sundays and sometimes you know, you you know, you get up on Sunday morning, you're still feeling last Sunday, you know, um and the one thing that that gets you through, you know, going back to the fans and walking out into the walking out into the stadium. Like once you get out there into that stadium, man, sometimes that energy from the crowd hits you, man, and that's you That's what you need,
you know. Otherwise, man, you'll be trying to stay back in the in the hotel room and sleep it off. But yeah, it's it's it's a tough game, man, but you know what, when you love it, you know, and you you you're fighting for a chance to win the championship. Man, you'll run through a wall. Your guys bodies are really beat up and like you just said, without that adrenalin sometimes, ship you don't know where you would be. So what
is your routine? So if you play on Sunday, walk us through the week leading up to the following Sunday, games over. You know, now it's on to the next opponent. But what you're doing is on that Monday, you're going and you'll watch film of the game you just played, you know, kind of go over, um. You know, any corrections that that the coaches have seen, you know, they'll give you a grade, you know, as far as how
you perform, whether or not you missed any assignment. So you might have some if you got a bunch of red checkmarks on it's like school, your ads had a bad day. Um. So then you know, after that, either either before or after that, you know, you get your workout in, you know, you know, trying to you know, just trying to work through everything man and keep yourself mobile.
Usually Tuesdays or your days off, so between Monday and Tuesday, you're trying to figure out, you know, when you're gonna try to get your massage in and all that stuff man, and try to you know, work some of that stuff out. Wednesdays, Wednesdays and Thursdays are your long practice. Usually Wednesdays are you know, first and you go over first and second down. Um,
so that that day is gonna be long. You're gonna get out of there maybe five you know five thirty or so, Um, Thursday is gonna kind of be the same thing. You're gonna go over your third down and then you know kind of marry some some some red zone which will have on Friday, and then some still some first and second down stuff, but it's mainly you know, you focus on that third down and trying to get off the football field. So that's gonna be another long
day five five thirty. Then Friday rolls around. Uh, Friday, you're gonna go over red zone. You know, it's gonna be more of a walk through tempo for portions of it, and then you'll get into uh really some some game management type stuff. Uh So, but it's a shorter day. You know, you probably get out of there. You know, everything will be done probably one thirty two o'clock on Saturday. You're gonna walk through in the morning, you know, meet
you know, watching films. It's gonna be pretty light. And then uh uh Saturday night you meet up at the hotel and you also you go through your individual meetings, uh team meeting, you know, uh pregame or nightly before the game, meal or whatnot. Curfew at eleven. Then man, you're back at it again on Sunday, Ready to roll. Let me touch on that that that curfew because you know, as basketball players, we didn't have the I guess maybe the structure from a standpoint, and you guys are really
in there all day. When you go to a facility, you in there in the morning and like you said, five thirty, you know, like a real work. Yeah, we're going there. We get our extra shots, we watch film, we get stretched, we left, we do all that ship, we practice, we're still out of there and no more than three hours sometimes with Nellie, we mother be at the end and out that bitch in forty five minutes sometimes. But to have that kind of like curfew, And did
did you guys have roommates? It was that only for the players that worked like superstars. How did that ship work? Some guys like the room on the road? Um, I had my own room when you first came in, like rookie, I think rookies second year of players, you had to have a roommate. But if you if you older in the game, you stay in the room by yourself. So yeah, okay, I couldn't imagine having no ruck, couldn't getting nothing off
on the road right now? I couldn't have done that speaking to y'all, man, I know, I know y'all don't have curfew. I lived in Atlanta for about eight years. Man. I remember, Man, so you've seen Jack. I've seen you've seen Jack a few times. I've seen him a few times, man, And uh, I remember being out one night. Man, it's it's five six in the morning. Man, I see my man, hey, hey, eyes out there and you know, at the club, man, and like, damn, this man, how does he he got
a game tomorrow? Man? Man, Hey, I got out there and gave them people forty five points. Man, I said, she, Well, you know what he's doing. He knows what he's doing. Some of us can do it. On the flip side with us, you know, that whole Warrior team, we would be out till the sun came up sometimes and still have a game that night, and still went hard the
whole night. Like I said, it was just so much different to where, Like I said, the strug, not that we were we were actually why, but I'm saying as far as the structure and the rules and the regulations, we didn't have that kind of ship. You know. Once we got to the league, it was like like you say, like you're real, like you really so everything you on
your own, doing whatever you gotta do. And some people can handle in some game right right and and to really, I mean, I think that freedom, that leash that they give you some of the fucker's hanging themselves with, because like you said, if you can't you out here doing whatever and you're not performing on Sunday or when the ball goes up at seven thirty, for us, you hanging yourself, no doubt about it. Talked about you was able to
turn that that that leash into a motherfucking gold change. Jack, You didn't, So what what was it like? You as a player evolving into the one of the best defensive players of the the game, your team evolving into a contender under John Gruten. Yeah, man, it's it's really to me, it's about experience. You know. The more you play, um, I think, the better you get, the more understanding of the game, the more time you're in certain situations, the better you get, the more times you see things, the
better you get. Um. So I just you know, as a player, you know, being able to come in as a rookie and start and play sixteen games, I felt like I feel like for any player, man, from your first year to your second year, it should be your biggest your biggest jump if you're able to play, you know, sixteen games. So I was thrown into the fire, you know, in the NFL, man, and which was great for me because I wanted to be out there anyway. But we we we built the team, man Grouten and uh you
know our gym and everything. They started building, building that contender, you know, bringing in some pieces, you know and putting them in the right places. You know. We were a veteran team, you know that. So we had Tim Brown who was there when I already got there. Then Jerry Rice came outside linebacker named William Thomas, and you know Eric Allen was there. So we had some veteran guys and then we added some pieces man that you know,
got us to being a contender in the league. And so you know I was around some some guys man, like some real lives, you know, legends man, Eric Turner, Eric Allen, you know. Then rich Ganning came in and so I was, I was Jerry right, man, come on, man, Charlie Garner, my boy, Charlie Man. So I as yeah, man, so I had some real that has some real dudes. I felt like I couldn't help but get better. What was it like to be a three sport varsity athlete?
A you're talking to me or him? Definitely him, because I was too. Were you three? Football? Basketball? Baseball? Basketball? This is my first time here in the baseball ship. Basically asked a couple of people in here that I knew. I knew you was, you know center field football? Basketball? Yeah? Ball, just travel basketball picked up? So I stopped playing, so not I know what I call you played? Bro? Call you guys. You was calling it baseball to know and
now it's not racial. Understand understood, it's not racial America. Don't find him? Uh nah, bro? It was cool, like in all honesty, sports or what keep me going? You know, sports are just that's what energizes me. I was I was good enough at basketball. I wasn't great. I was really good at track and discus. I was really it's a technical thing. I was really good at track. Um, but football I was so raw. I knew I could
be good, and I was. I was never the biggest, never the smartest, but I was like, I'm either gonna be the biggest, the fastest, excuse me, or I'll be the smartest. And I was never the biggest of the fastest, but I was like, Okay, people don't realize and y'all get this. Man, sports, you gotta be smart. It's like people don't you have about ninety plays on the football field during the game, you take about thirty of the men and adjustments based on a receiver motioning and moving,
especially as a middle linebacker. You have to be brilliant. But like, people don't get it. People don't respect athletes intellectual and intellectually enough. You gotta be brilliant playing football in Texas, was there any chance that you would go somewhere else for college? Brought? Not a chance? But never never never Texas. We were nice, but remember we had Vince Young was oh five. I went to Texas and oh eight, So there was no no I mean you go you you play football in Texas to go to Texas?
You know what I'm saying, Like, you don't even fix your lips to think about going. And I'm not even one of those like crazy die hard alums. I'm just like Texas Texas. There was a standard talk to us about that experience. Actually being a long home though first two years went crazy. We was twenty four and one the first two years, I didn't lose a game. Quarterback, two time Hivesman finalists, winning his college football quarterback when he retired. When he left college, we went, we went.
We lost one game my first year, and then we ran the table my second year till we got to the National championship and lost Obama. Funny enough, we were Obama's beginning of their streak gonna beat us in the National Championship, mark Ingram Julio Jones and they go on to win seven of the last god knows how many. But m bro, when you're winning at Texas, I mean,
don't get me started. Ain't nothing like nothing. So what you talk to me about this though on some other ship, being in such a strict household and then kind of gaining some sort of freedom, and you're a young man in Texas, now you're on a winning football team. What's that like to you? Because you were so confined in one space and now you're somewhat free and you're on top of the world. Man, that's good, bro. They say when you go to college, at least when you were
the Austin six Street. It's gonna make or break you. You know what I'm saying, Like, when you now you're away from home, it's either gonna make or break you. I don't think it broke me, you know, it was cool being away from home. The thing about it, though, I have my big brother there. He's one year older than me, and so I think he may all the mistakes for me, and he knew just how far I could go before reeling me back in. And the big
thing was just like, don't make the pivotal mistake. You know, have fun, live your best life, but keep your grades up, don't get suspended, don't do nothing wild and like for really, if if you're Nigerian, it's like, don't embarrass your last name. Right, there's a saying you'll probably heard with Nigerian's n John know that caddy last, nigiohn No that caddy last. Nigerians don't carry last, like you can't finish the last and all that is and kind of Nigerian culture is like
you gotta be the best. And so I didn't really have that luxury of just doing whatever because it's like you gotta be the best at whatever you do. Plus my freaking brother was there. He was a genius. He was an academic All American. He was an athletic All American. So I was like, oh god, um, so yeah, that was That was college man. What's the most memorable moment on the field, God, that's a question. My senior year at Missouri. This is how I ended up a third
team All American senior at missour Um. Their field was terrible. Bro our captain running back towards M C L A C L pcl earlier in the game, star linebacker next to me, Keenan Robinson. He got drafted to Washington in the fourth round. He broke his thumb, and he broke his thumb, but it broke out of the glove. Like the thumb was no longer in the glove. And that's my dog, Like Keena was my dog. I was in his wedding all that. So star linebacker Tears was holding
up Keenan's thumb is out of his glove. He runs off the field during the play. He's like, reff, my thumb, my thumb. He runs off the field during the play. I sit there to ref doesn't stop the game. Um they throw a now screen, I run over to the now screen. I forced the fumble. I see my team recovery. I don't even wait for the ref to singal recovery, and I just run off to the sideline to check on my dog. That was the most memorable, Like he got hurt. Ref didn't stop to play. They throw a bubble.
I forced a fumble, don't even care about the ball. I see my other little young bro recovered, and I just from like, hey, what happened to keenan Um? That was wild? Yeah, that was the most valuable take away from your four years as a long horn. You have to be consistently good to be great. Mm hmm. You gotta be consistently good to be Everybody wants to be great. But what's being great look like? Being great looks like
being consistently good? You turn on it, You turn on a tube every day, and if you watch, speak for yourself like, oh he's good the next day, Oh he's good, the next Oh he's kind of good, the next always kind of good. All of a sudden, it's like, you know what, because might be great. You know what I'm saying, Like, you gotta be consistently good to be great. Stack. When I was playing ball. I knew the normal players would come to me, but I would try to find one
to two highlight plays a game. Right if they line up in a certain offset formation, I know exactly what they're gonna do. I'm gonna make the big play tax for loss sacks, something like that. And now I take the same thing on TV every block, every conversation. I know it's gonna be I but you gotta find the one quotable sound bite that makes somebody like you said stop twice and say, hey, you'll make sure go run that back. Um, you gotta be consistently good to be great.
You said something off off camera now since you talked about, you know, kind of finding your magic um in this space now that I thought was really interesting because you know, although you know our job is to talk sports, for the most part, not everyone is interested in sports, so you try to find well, expo, I don't want to I'm gonna take your words from you, but explain that, Yeah, man, not everybody cares about sports, but everybody cares about life,
and so I really just use sports as a masquerade to get to the root of life because everybody wants to talk life. So sports to me is just a It's an avenue to get to life, because life is a vehicle there it is. It's a vehicle to get to life. Everybody cares about life. Not everybody cares about your favorite team. You don't like that. I like that. So drafted sixth rail and two thousand and twelve. And obviously I caught what you said earlier in the interview.
It was calculated. You had kind of taken your calculations and understanding who you were as a football player. You have that for your run, three, your for your run um and was ready for what was next. But in that for your run, what stood out to you the most? Bro? When I got traded, Because when you had traded you, you just think it's a video game. You know what I'm saying, like, Oh, you trade people on video game. Not a big deal. I'm in Cleveland my first year.
They drafted me and I get the athletic trainer comes in and it gives me like the handshake pad on the bag. I'm like, hell like that. It's been nice knowing you. Y'all know that I wasn't the good old I had to the to the general manager, head coach's office and they're like, hey, I just want to notify you you've been traded to the Philadelphia Eagles. I'm trying to hide my Jubia League because I'm like, get me the hell out of Cleveland. Like we're about to go
to Philly. They got Lashawn McCoy out there, Mike Vic out there, like some real stars. Um. Craziest thing though, like your flights in three hours? I left, bro When you get traded, y'all, I don't know if you was traded when you get traded flights in three hours. I went to Philly. I didn't go back to Cleveland for five years. Somebody packed up my stuff, they moved it. I get to Philly, I stay in a hotel and it's just like you're just good, You're just packaged good.
So that was probably the craziest and most memorable thing of the four years. Man, it was a wild you know that sports media stepping into this space was something you wanted to do or to just kind of falling your lap. Fell in my lap. Man. I do what I'm good at. I told people, I'm like, if I was great at math, i'd be an accountant. You feel me like, if I was very gracious, I might be a secretary, but I'm a good communicator, um, and I study it and I work at it, and I'm just
good at putting words together. It kind of fell in my lap or even even uncomfortable conversations like y'all realize. People move to l a just to creative video and hopes that it goes viral and hopes it Oprah calls them and hopes that they get nominated for an Emmy and hopes that they win. People sell their whole lives and dreams to do that. And I stumbled into it, you know what I'm saying, Like I tripped and fell into it, and so I just do what I'm good at.
And like I said, I'm bad at a lot, Like, don't get it twisted. I am bad at a lot um, but I know what I'm good at, and I lean into that. I've tripped and fell into a few things and much hell support bills are crazy now, It's so Westlake Boy, Westlake, Ohio three sports star in high school football, baseball, basketball. I played everything is well going through high school. When did you decide to or did you play everything up until your senior year when you had to start trying
to pick what you were gonna do next. Oh yeah, So first all, I got a funny story about Westlake, Ohio. I'm from Cleveland Heights, Ohio. I took going into the NFL so serious that I thought when it. When I was filling out the form for the NFL dot Com stuff, I thought that I had to put where I was, like the hospital. I was born in Westlake Hospital. I thought it. Well, I thought they wanted the government government.
So that's how that's how silly I am. I'm from Cleveland Heights, Ohio, and they just put Westlake up there, so they shout out to west Lake and everybody, but I'm from the east side of Cleveland. Uh. Ask you a question, though, man, I still I still wish I could find my way into an NBA team for a quick fifteen days, ten days. Yeah, I love hoops. I'm actually wearing the old school I don't know if you guys were part of the old school Gatorade, hoop it up back in the day. Back in the day, that
was that was life right there. But for me growing up, growing up, I played every single sport uh you can think of. Man. I was going from hockey practice to basketball practice when I was in like fourth fifth grade. UM, I was playing baseball just about year round, hockey year around, soccer year round. And when it got to high school, that's when I really had to, you know, narrow it down. And UM, I wasn't sure exactly what I was gonna do.
I knew I knew my school was was more tailored to a basketball school, as we had one state uh in nineties seven. Um and had a good track record that guys going to college for free playing playing hoops. And you know, that was something I knew. You know, my grades weren't the best, my effort in the classroom wasn't the best, so I knew I had to you know, sale somewhere else. Uh I wanted to go to college
for free. So it was um it was definitely a basketball football with the main two in high school UM and uh. I just I had more offers uh and and and it just felt more comfortable for me to stick with football. Even though I did go to Cincinnati to play both football and basketball, I never saw the court. I practiced a few times and got and got in a few summer games, but outside of that, man, you only saw me cheering for the hoop squad, but I
think it was. It was. It was an easy transition because I initially went to college for to play quarterback. So I went to University of Cincinnati to play QB and my first my first year, I read shirted. Second year, our coach Brian Kelly, who's that Notre Dame now, had a package for me um that to be the Wildcat, and man I did when I tell you, he came up with this the week before our first game, all
training camp, two days nothing. I'm just trying to work on my three step with my three step game, right like I'm a rookie, like I'm a freshman, fresh meeting in the pocket and h shure enough, he puts this this package together and wants me to straight run the ball.
The game came around, we went up I think like two scores, and the third time into the red zone, he threw me in there and I'm I'm in my mind, I'm like, he's not even gonna call this and he throws me in there, and I remember being so scared. My brother is actually playing left guard at this point, which is which is ironic because he's he's lead blocking
for me. So I'm catching the snap I'm catching the snap, reading the defenders, and I'm like, in my mind, I'm I'm not even I'm handing this thing off the first time. I'm just letting a round. I'm like, hey, I'm in this thing. I'm a freshman in the in this uh, in this college football game like I always dreamed of. And man, it just didn't feel like I was ready for the moment. And then once I got my feet wet for one play, man, I was ready. I was like, all right, I can do this. I can do this.
I I see how everything kind of just slowed down a little bit and uh, and that's when I really, uh, I really felt that I could take the game, um and turning into something you know that I could I could do for the rest of my life. Once it all slowed down and I could get into the zone, UM, I had the confidence to be able to just play instinctually. UM. And I made the I made the transition into into
into the tight end room. UM naturally so so because I was doing the wildcast stuff, the coach wanted me to kind of be on the field so that we can when you sell players in and out in football, the official actually waits the offense can't snap the ball until the defense. You give the defense time to switch their personnel. So if you keep a certain personnel on the field, um, they have to keep their personnel on
the field. So it's just it's one of those things where he wanted me on the field so they could stay in a certain personnel so that I could run the ball as well. But uh, doing that meant that I had to play a little bit of tight end. The success I found with tight end, man, it just it. It took off in college, and uh, you know, I've just been so grateful that I got the opportunity at such a young age, or I didn't wait till later
in my college career to make the transition. I really found a love for the game when I when I moved to tight end. This is all a smoke A production of The Black Effect and Our Heart Radio and Part the Ship with Showtime