Welcome to What's Burning. I'm Rachel Nichols here with Mr Stephen Jackson. That would be NBA Champion extraordinaire, Steck. You're making waves on Instagram. You're doing everything this week. Would you put out you said Lebron wasn't a top five player currently? On the I Am Athlete podcast, you posted an I G post you said that, what, Jordan's your number one all time, Kobe's number two, Lebron's number three?
What's going on? Yeah, he's definitely my third. And I'm I'm not speaking from I have to tell you this. I'm not speaking from a fan perspective. I'm thinking from a player's perspective. You know, I've been around players, not been around those locker rooms in those games, and I played against most of those guys, and uh, I've seen different things from actually being out there on the course. So there's no disrespect. But I think if being in the top three all time, I think they're still saying
a lot about somebody. Absolutely, and he's not done yet too, so we gotta wait to see what happens there. Right. I want to talk more about current stuff though. Trade deadline Friends. Thursday, February ninth a little more than a week away. It's feels like it's one of the more open years in recent history in terms of especially the West,
like anyone could win, anyone could lose. There's this whole plot of teams that are sort of separated by only five games between third and thirteen place, So it's kind of hard to tell which teams are going to go in which direction. Which means I want to play a little game with you, my friend. It is called blow it up or stay the course? Should these teams sell at the deadline or keep their core pieces? And we
go through a few teams. I gotta start with Phoenix because this is a team that was in the Western Conference finals just two years ago. They dropped down to a second round exit last year. This year, stack their number nine in the West, one game under five hundred, and look, they're one of the oldest teams in the NBA. Chris Paul thirty seven, not playing to his usual standards. There's the whole DeAndre Ayton quagmire. They've got Jay Crowder
as an asset. He hasn't played all season because he wants that chunky contract the Sons didn't want to give him and in the middle of it all, you know who's there. Devin Booker twenty six years old looking at the team that is eight and fourteen when he doesn't play so staff, what should Phoenix do? They definitely need to blow it up right to it ain't no secret, um, you know they you know all the stuff that then went on with the owner. You know that that has
put a cloud over their team. They need to kind of start from scratch CP. It's basically you know, got them to the finals, but everything has been kind of downhill, sister, and you know, a lot has been going over that team with eight and it's just so much, you know, I think I think they need to blow it up. I think they have to make a decision who they can keep. But in the order for them to get back to where they are right, they definitely have to break it up. That feels extreme, blow it up. I
mean they've still got a decent core. What about just adding someone, what about just like tinkering and adding some of it? Yeah, I just don't think there's nobody out there all all of all the key players are big guys. That was that you know they called players. There's one player away all those guys are locked in the contracts. Most of those guys are locked in the contracts so and are happy way they're at. So um, you know what I mean. I just I just don't see that
that working. That the core is good, right, the core is pretty decent, you know. But I just think that the star problems was what is what they need to have make some us some much changes. Look Chris Paul, clearly, I mean, he's thirty seven. He can't be what he was five years ago, maybe even two years ago. I still want him for playoff experience on this team in key moments, and I just we'll talk about O g and Obi in a few minutes because we've gotta have
a whole Toronto discussion as well. I think he could make a big difference there. I feel like if they're willing they get a new owner, if they're willing to spend spend some money, spend some draft picks, they could tweak enough to really make a run. But they'd have to. It's like a half blow up. I'm with you. I'm like a half blow up. And I do think Eton is not a lock to stay there. Um, I'm not saying he's available, right now, but I do think that,
you know, Booker is a nonstarter. I don't know if Ayden's a nonstarter. We'll see, We'll see. I don't know. Let's talk about Portland's started the season nine and three, good, good start, but it's gone way downhill. Blazers sitting at number twelve, three games under five hundred and stack. This is a team that did not think they would be here. They spent a lot of money this summer. They signed Damian Lillard to that extension that will make him one
of the most well paid players in NBA history. They brought in Jeremy Grant, They have Josh Hart, they have Anthony Simon's Shaden Sharp. Those are their two young pieces. We know what a good coach johnsy Billups is, so it's clearly not enough with all those pieces. And when it's a rough season in Portland, you know, the question it always comes back to, is there a point the Blazers need to trade Dame and his salary and start
from scratch? What do you think? I just think the way the way they got their money set up, Rachel, it ain't just dang. They got a lot of money tied up in a lot of guys over there that can be key trade pieces, you know, and and they got some guys over whatever rages that can go to other teams and be that one guy, you know. So Portland has I think Poortland, out of any team, has a lot of pieces to make big trades and to make a better team for Damon Chauncey. But they just
haven't done it. Over the years, they brought certain guys in that they thought was gonna make, uh make a change for this team, and they just haven't done it. And uh, I think just losing c J was was a was a big loss for them. C Json my guy, what the the The combination of him and Dane was just special to see every night. But they just they couldn't get it done either. So they're gonna have to uh find a way to get Dame another big name player, and that Rachel for some help because he's been doing
this for so long. I don't think Dame is gonna leave. I don't think they want Dame to leave. I think it's gonna have to be all those other pieces and put their money together. Yeah, that's a great point because they're kind of this catchwain two, right, Dame can't really go to them and publicly asked for trade after all he has said and done and genuinely feels about his loyalty to the city. They can't trade him away as
a franchise. They can't do that to the fans and just be like, yeah, we're getting rid of Daan Willard. I mean, that's that's a tough position to without him saying he wants to go. They had an interesting situation with Jeremy Grant Stack because Dame wanted him, they were tight from the Olympic team. He asked Portland to go out and get Jeremy. They did um, but he's got an expiring contract, so they did offer to extend him army.
Grant reportedly rejected the extension. It could just be because he can get a lot more money in the summer, or it could be because he's going to look around in the summer. If you're Portland's do you take that risk and keep him on Or is that one of the pieces that when you say, hey, they gotta make big changes around Dame, that you say great, if you're not, if we might lose you for nothing this summer, we gotta get rid of you. Well, that name is different Rage.
That's one of those guys I keep uh the energy he brings and the way he's been playing the last couple of years. I think he could be one of those guys that really can help any team. He's one of those guys that's the one player away guy. I don't I don't think he's I don't think he's the guy that needs to leave Rich. I think it could be other guys in that team. And damn, we got him for a reason because you know, a lot of guys like like his energy and this effort and he
brings it every night. Yeah, no, he's He's a player's player. There's no question about it. I want to go over the East because we got Chicago sitting at number ten. There's no timetable for when a Lonzo ball is going to come back becau zach Lavine. We know it is locked up for forty plus bill per year until seven, but the Rosen is gonna enter free agency not after this season but the next one. And Mushevik is a
free agent after this season. I gotta say, like, I know, the big swing they took with those three guys is their core, but their ceiling is not a championship ceiling, it is clearly lower. And you've got Alex Caruso, who everyone in the league seems to want. What would you do if you're that front office deck, Well, they got they got a lot of money tied up in the
big man. So you know, once and once he becomes a free agent, they can they can get two big pieces hopefully up put a little package together to get two guys and that can come in and get a banger probably and another and another big man that can score to kind of to have two guys equal him. But that team is just not put together to be a championship team, like you said, right when you look at it, they got, they got, They got a lot of guys that we like as as basketball fans and
watching the game. But just a combination of Alonzo being heard de Rosen, you know, having his nice zach lavine being in and out, you know, Uh, Caruso being fan favorite and he's not even the star of the team. Is like, it's a lot of things that's going on over there that that that don't equal winning. And uh that's why you see that the things going on the
way they are. I mean, if you're a Laker fan watching Alex Caruso and also hearing that the front office could get I mean, there are reports out there the Bulls are asking for as much as two first round picks for him, and the Lakers coustle have that. That's painful enough. But there's talk about the Lakers wanting Luchavik. What do you think of that? Would you like to see him there? I mean I like that. I mean the combination of him and Anthony Davis, that's gonna take
a lot of press off of Anthony Davis. I'll tell you that when he comes back. Um Um, I like it, right. I think that'd be a good move for m Anything going, anything for them, be a help to try to change things there, because you know they still have time. Yeah. No, I mean, I just certainly think with Uchavik being expiring, you gotta just cut bait at this point with this idea that those three are going to get it done for you. But we'll see what the Bulls want to do.
Let's talk about Toronto to we mentioned o Ganna Nobe earlier. Raptors twelve in the East. They've got Scottie Barnes, who's twenty one years old, he's setting a lot of their future timeline. Fred van Bleet and Gary Trent Jr. They could walk for nothing this summer. They've got player options, so they're right for a trade if the Raptors want to go that blow it up direction. And again O G and nob he is supposedly the hottest guy on the market stack according to you know, front office sources
and all that stuff. He is the guy that everyone says, that's your one piece away. So he is going to command insane price on the trade market if the Raptors go that direction. So should the Raptors go that direction? Should they just kind of blow it up right now? I mean me personally, I'm I'm not. I wouldn't agree with O G. I can't say his last name. I can't. I don't agree with O G being that Yeah, O G. I I can't agree with that. I don't think he's that that that guy to me, um, yeah, he's a
young tality. He plays hard, but he has a lot of holes in this game. To me, he's not that efficient offensively. He makes a lot of aggressive hustle plays, but just a guy you can just give the ball to and go get you thirty. He's not that guy. So um, I like him, but I just think it's so much things. There's so much stuff that's wrong with that team. As far as the personnel. Um right, Um, they don't. I don't think it's just built. It's built to to compete like they've been in the past, you know,
just having that the right size three guard. You know, sometimes they they're they're one, two and three. They're having in the game of time that they're they're real small. You know what I'm said that they they're not the size of a team that we're looking at. It's gonna be in the playoffs, but um, a lot of things need to change it. I like the coach. I think the coach is solid um and I think Vambie's time in Toronto maybe up because you know, he's had success
there and it happens to everybody. It's not that he's not playing well, deserves to be there. But you know what I'm saying that everybody running onnesday course sometimes in places, well, we saw the Raptors when it was Kyle Larry. Everyone thought they would deal Kyle Lowry because his contract was gonna be up that summer and the Raptors just said, out of respect for him, they didn't feel like they found a good enough deal, so they kept him, and then of course they did lose him. They're kind of
in the same situation with Fred van Bleet. I mean, I know he's got a player option, but still they're basically looking at him possibly losing him for nothing this summer. I gotta think that they will make a different decision this time. I mean, Fred van Bleet, while he's done great things for that franchise, does not have the Kyle Lowry status in Toronto in terms of that respect factor.
And I don't know. The Clippers I think are huge contenders to get him because the idea of finally giving them a real starting point guard and pairing him with Kwhi Leonard again is very appealing in l A. So I can see that trade happening, and we'll see with Ojana nov I know Dallas is you know, interested in what happens there. There's a couple of there's a couple of teams that think if they put him next to their superstar, do that to Luca Rage, Don't do that
to Luca. Don't do that. No, I don't do that. Well we will see it's gonna be an interesting week, Sack, and we'll be back next week, just a couple of days before the deadline, so we will talk were about this. But I gotta take a little about that the games. I know you saw that Lakers Celtics game over the weekend. How the refs missed that foul in Lebron? What are sending the line for the win? We all know that was a funk up, But I want to ask you
about the aftermath. Right the Lakers are pointing to four games now where they say they should have one but didn't do to officiating mistakes that obviously would shift them a lot in the standings. Lebron has been tweeting four days now he doesn't understand why he's targeted, and the Twitter account for the NBA Refs Union published this. They're saying the miscall was quote gut wrenching for us. They said, quote this play will weigh heavily and cause sleepless nights
as we strive to be the one. Feels good to be lebronn Man. Right, Hey, Race, I gotta say it right, if we had social media when we played. Nobody has been filed in the history of the NBA, to me than Raw on our tests, nobody, because he was bigger than everybody that guarded him every night. Right, nobody got filed and he would have been if if he could have done that, I would have put a picture of a referee and him getting fired. He would have got fined.
So crazy, This is just unbelievable because it happens Rachel, happens all the time. It's happened to me, It's happened to a lot of players. I mean a lot of stars, especially guys that have the ball to end the games. It happens. But the fact that he's able to single it out on I g and and and keep talking about it, and then everybody just keep posting and keep posting it. Pat Beverley got fine. I don't know if
Braun gonna get fine. And that's what it feels good to be Braun, to be able to talk about the ref like that. I do not think Lebron is gonna get fined. And I mean it's funny, right, I mean Shack used to always say the same thing as Lebron. Right, I don't get the calls and and they're both right, I mean they don't get every foul called on them. Do you think they should or do you think the way players have to defend them? It just is what it is. What do you take because you played against
both those guys. Man, I'm gonna just say this, Yeah, honest, gets filed so many times and so many fires. It just happens, right, you know. And you know the referee has been bad. It's nothing new. They're always bad, you know, because and I say this, Race, because you have a lot of guys out there that never actually played the game with basketball, right, they know how to officiate the game. So it's some plays that the way you move, your buy, the way you fall, some of those players are not
gonna be filed. But but some blatant, like just blatant files. If you know the game and watch the game, have been playing the game, you won't miss those and and and and and that's why it happened. It's been happening, Race. But you know, if you Lebron and it was a big game, you know, to to be able to point it out and put it all on I g. Everybody's going crazy, But the referees always do stuff like that.
Rach is nothing new. Well, Darvin Ham said he thinks there should be a fourth referee on the fourth to catch more stuff like that. Do you agree or is that to quite it up? I mean that that could be an answer, but that also could clog up the cloud too, so you know, having another rep out there, I mean, that's that. That's a lot. Sometimes you see guys running into referees as is with three da so so I don't know how to a work race, but that would be a good idea to just to see
if it will work well. They experimented with it in Summer League a few years ago and then they didn't do it, so I gotta think they it didn't quite take, but we'll see. I don't know. Every time something like this happens, everything gets put under the microscope again. We will find out. We gotta talk All Star to stack because they announced their starters last week. A few selections that caught people's eyes. Zion Williamson in there despite only
playing twenty nine games this season. You've got Katie as a starter over Joel Embiid, even though Durant has obviously been hurt. May not even make it back for the All Star Game. Where are you in terms of voting a number of games a guy has played. How much does that factor in for you if you were picking the All Star selections, Well, I mean it matters a lot. I mean, Katie's played the buckle the season. You know, he just went down recently, you know, and he's been
carrying his team. One of the best players in the league of course at the top of the talk. So and I'm happy for Zigon. Rates are really happy for him. But you know, play at twenty nine out of fifty one games is not a lot. You know, it's it's team. The team has been playing well too, but you know that you got some kind of way, uh figure out
this voting. You know, there's so many guys that that dedicate themselves to playing every game and you know, you know, I'm not I can't hold it against them because of the injury. You know, that's unfortunate sometimes, but there's so many guys that actually play almost every game that's out there helping their team and you know, and have their team at the top of their conferences, right that deserves to be in that spot. Um, So you know, they
got to really look at that. Man. I mean, I'm happy for them, but I think you know, you gotta play at least thirty five for the games, you know, the beginning of the season to make it up to be All Star. It's tough. I mean I always feel like when you're voting for All NBA, when I have voted for that, I have really taken into account how much did you play, how available you were, because All NBA is about what kind of season did you have
this season. I will admit I am always a little looser with my All Star our votes because I do think when people say, oh, it's not supposed to be a popularity contest, it is literally a popularity contest. That is what it is. People vote for who their most popular favorite player is. It is the All Star game. There to me has to be a little more room in this when you're voting for this for just who are the biggest stars? Who do people want to see?
Who's electric out there? I do look at those votes differently. It is tough when you've got guys who played you know, less than you know right around half the games and other guys who've played all the games and it put up really good numbers. Two. But I do get why not only did the media and the fans vote for zion Um. The fellow players actually put him, i think, in in third spot. They really voted high for him, and that to me is also interesting too. They published
the NBA who the players voted for. The players account the votes and you can kind of see who they respect and who they don't. Nikola Yoki, for example, got more votes from the players than Lebron for the west on court spots. That hasn't happened before. That kind of speaks to this like growing, you know, respect among the players for your kitchen, just people being like he's crazy, he's crazy. Good um. And then it went the other
way with Trey Young. Stack. Listen to this. The other players ranked Trey Young as the twelfth best guard in the East. They put LaMelo Ball, Tyrese Halibert and a bunch of other guys ahead of him. Trey's averaging game. What do you make for the fact that they other players put him as the twelfth best guard the East. Yeah, they gotta get out their feelings, right, they gotta feelings. There's no way he's the twelve best point guard in
the East. It's no way. Um, you know, you know he's one of those guys that you know, he wants to compete every night. You don't care who you is. He's gonna talk his noise, you know. And and he has a servace swack about himself. He's a small guy. Uh. Some of the way he's some of the shots he takes and how he finishes in the pain is is amazing to be his side. So he has a chip on the show to rage. And I don't blame him. But you know that that that that says a lot
to the race, even though he's twelve. That says a lot to That says a lot to That says a lot of that's that's that's that's respecting a different way. What do you mean, Well, yeah, put me on the y y'all putting me at the bottom because y'all probably hating on me because we are because I talked so much. I talked so much trash and I'm cocky, but I'm married to tin A and I guarantee every time we step on that court, I everything that you say I don't do, I do, and I put my I put
points on you. I get twin points on everybody out here. So you might not like it, but you gotta respect it. Who was that guy when you were playing? Who? Like? Just players around the league did not like even though they had to respect his game. I'm always I always felt like Ron was good with other players though, did other players not respect Ron? I was with him? They were they respected him, rage, they respected him. But on the court he didn't respect nobody, right, you know what
I'm saying. It was the way he the way he played, looks so disrespectful. Rage. It's just no, I've never seen nobody play basketball I like that in my life. I just think it's very interesting to see who they like who they don't. And also, by the way, the players not taking this that seriously. Chad home Grind got four votes from the players. He has yet to play a single game. I don't know. I should the players have more more of a percentage of the votes, but come on, guys,
a lot of emotional guys raised. They don't need to have votes. On the radar presented by Draft Kings Sports Book, let's talk about the Pacific Division. Interesting right now, stack the Kings, the Warriors, the Clippers, the Sons, Lakers all within five games of each other. So you can look here at the odds. But if you just look at those five teams, who do you think finishes with the best record out of this pack? I will have to
go the Warriors. I just think as they Yeah, I just feel like as they get get healthy with the experience they have, you know what I mean, I think they can find a way to ramp it up and go on to run by the to the season. They better fix that road record. Of course, that's that's the main problem. But you know, you ought to be a championship team, you know, you have to win on the road, and then They've been able to figure out some years.
But I think right now they just need to worry about finishing the season on a good note, and I think, you know, everything goes to click like it has in the past. They also have you know, that's like sixteen game player kind of thing. Those guys have been doing this for so long they know when to turn it up. So I'm not I'm not worried about them in the playoffs. I wonder how they're going to finish the regular season.
I do think you gotta watch out for the Clippers because I do think they're going to make a move at the deadline, so that could impact how they finish, but we shall see find out legendary moments presented by top Shot and Stack. Of course we're talking legendary moments with you. We got to talk about We Believe Warriors. So many memorable moments from that team. What do you choose on the court most memorable We Believe Warriors moment? Well,
I got too quick was rich. I was able to hit seven threes and that deciding game, I think that that was the most I was able to hit. And it was special for me that game because uh be Baron Davis came to before that game. He told me he wasn't feeling well and um and uh his knees wasn't brought me. He told me he really need him. And after the game he gave me a compliment on TV.
I didn't I didn't see it to probably like eight years later on the on on YouTube or something, but they interviewed him after the game on T and T and they asked him, um about my play and he was like a lot of people say a lot of things about Stephen Jackson, but they never mentioned how great basketball player is and and I hold that to my heart. So that's two of the greatest moments I remember from that time. Anyone who doesn't mention what a good basketball
player you are, friend is missing the boat. Before I let you go, Stack, we gotta talk nfl. Um, that was rough for the forty niners this weekend, I'm not gonna lie. And that was also quite crazy for the Chiefs at the end. What do you think of the games this weekend? You know, it's unfortunate. It's unfortunate for the Bengals. Um, there was a great game. I hated to see in like that over punity, big old clumsy guy running too hard. You can't make that type of
mistake in the game. I would love to see that game going over time and see both teams had a ball and uh leaving into the quarterbacks hands and not in the referees hands. But congratulates to the Chiefs many but they would. I think it's three times in the last four years they've been a Super Bowl. I'm mistaken. And the Eagles, you know, um, it's good to see two black quarterbacks in the game. I'm not an Eagles fan.
I'm a Cowboy fan, so I'm not saying anything good about the Eagles, but I will say that I'm happy that it's two black quarterbacks able to headline of the Super Bowl. It's beautiful. It was nice. You saw Joel and Beat and James Harden at the game supporting. I love it. I always love it when like players from one team in the city come out to the players in the other team. So that made let's go Chief,
Let's go Chief. That was gonna ask you who you got in the Super Bowl, though, you got just because you don't want to see another NFC East team win or what. Well, Um Kelsey is a friend of the show, So I'm going for the Chiefs. I'm never I'm never going for the Eagles. Um men, Gilly the Kid and while from me, and that's where the game. We've been arguing all the time about this, but I'm never saying
anything good about the Eagles ever. I feel like I know a lot of Giants fans and when the Eagles and Patriots played in the Super Bowl, they didn't they were very conflicted on who to root against. It's just that they'd like an earthquake or something to happen so no one could win the game. That was the best outcome. So y'all in the NFC East or you very it's very it's very visceral for you. Yeah, this person Stack. We're gonna catch you on all the Smoke later this
week with Charles Barkley. I'm so excited for that. Thank you for today. Everything's awesome. I can't wait to see that either. Rachel Charless was he did his thing. Man. Uh. I didn't know how that interview was gonna go because you know, I've said some things about Chuck and you know, in the media and all that, but uh, he came in as a big brother. He came in as somebody who's been doing this for uh for forever and the season, and he came in, um showing us the same respect
that we gave him. So it was beautiful. Well, look, Chuck has said things about guys out there too, so he got well, no, but he knows you gotta be honest, right, I mean, you can't pull punches. The really good people in this game cannot pull punches. That's why people love listening to you all. That's why people love listening to him. So I love hearing that you guys are all together in one place, and I can't wait to hear it. That's gonna be really good now, We've got a special
interview with Jocelyn rose Lyon. She is the award winning director of Stand, coming out this Friday on Showtime. Here's a quick look at the trailer. One of the greatest players in the instrument was cheated out of his career. I noticed my mood was not standing for the national man. Am I saying that everything in America is bad? No, but whatever the bad is, and as a less we don't stand for my moon. Never said I'm gonna burn the house down, but the clan burned his house down
his willingness to take a stand. He should be celebrated for that. Al Right, you guys just saw the trailer for Stand, the Story of Mahmud abdul Rof, and this premieres on Friday on Showtime. We are very lucky to have the director of the film, Johnson rose Lions with us today. Welcome. Thank you, Rachel, so great to be here. Thank you for having me. I don't think everyone knows what Stand is the story of, so you can you just tell the audience what they can expect and what
sort of logline for this film is. Yes, Stand is a story of well, I use basketball as the vehicle to tell Montmod abdul rolf story, which is a very dynamic,
layered story. There are mental health issues, activism, it's it's a very layered story about his journey to find his paternal family, his kind of inner journey with Tourette syndrome, and of course his journey with the NBA and the media bias he experienced with his protest in some people don't even know what he did, or what he was protesting, or who he is. So can you explain for people who may not have known that pocket of history what
his story with the NBA is. Yes, I mean part of it's a great question, Rachel, because part of why so many people don't know about Matt Mud abdul Rao story almost thirty years later is because social media didn't exist when he took a stand and when he made prayer during the national anthem, he had just converted to Islam and he made a prayer, Um, it's a lot uh and or his dua he made doua made prayer
the Islamic prayer and Uh. He was really silenced. So he only had one outlet, which was through the media and the television's Um. There was no social media for him to explain what was behind that stand and that protest. Well, look, I think a lot of people watching this may hear that and they go, oh, okay, well that's a sports documentary. I did love the fact that you just said it was a way too vehicle to tell the story. This is a very emotion packed roller coaster ride of a story.
I don't think you have to be a sports fan to watch this. I mean, it's great if you are, but but I wouldn't think that you'd have to be right. I completely agree. I think sports just like any vehicle, you know, I look at things through the lens of light, like I think humans. We we radiate light, and when we look at people who are stars, we say, well, wow, they're a star really, because they're generating light. They're they're
gloding light. We're very drawn to the light. I think Matt Mood abdul ra has a light about him, and his story is a light and the container for his story, or the vehicle, is basketball. That's how we see his light shine through because he has a gift. But there was so many other layers in the story that Stand is able to tell. And I'm really honored that I was able to help guide that story in through through
this movie. It's interesting what you say about the social media because there's so much talk about how mak Mood was Alan Kaepernick before Colin Kaepernick. But it's not that simple, right. I mean I saw a quote from Dr Harry Edwards, the renowned civil rights expert. He noted that cap had the power of as you say, social media, he had the force of the Black Lives Matter movement behind him.
Then even going further back, Muhammad Ali and Kareem Abdul Jabar had the framework of the Black Power movement behind them. But his point was Mahmoud there was no greater movement behind him, And the quote was that he was an ocean alone with no paddle. How do you think that affected Makmoud's journey in his story? Well, mar Mood is he's just a really strong person and it's amazing what he went through. The fires that mottmod walked through to
me make him an alchemist. And he was able to walk through literal fires like the case, the literal and fires, literal fires like they burned his home to the ground, and those fires, both inner and external, did not break him. They made him. They rebirthed him like a phoenix. It's like he really rose from the ashes and became the mottmod Abdul he was meant to. And I think, you know, he is a testament too we can always be reborn to ourselves and we can overcome obstacles because he sure
faced a lot. And it's really amazing to me too because I think going back to the Kaepernick before Kaepernick, Yes, mom Mood really took a stand in a time when, like David Aldridge said in the film, when we interviewed him, I was just so captivated by the way in which he framed it. It's you know, he was on in the island alone, like you said, Rachel, like an ocean with no paddle. I mean, he was out there alone
and he didn't have a strategy behind the protest. He didn't have a campaign, he didn't have a team, he didn't have social media as an outlet to say what's next or what are we gonna do with this? So it was it was probably a time for him that was very introspective and based on the research I did and the amazing team I got to work with, the producers and writers, we we really got to see his journey was very painful and very difficult at that time.
He ended up losing everything and see in the film Um, including his his wife, just his mental health was definitely affected. Everything was was was affected by that. And one of the really striking things in the documentary was to see how little support other players gave him at the time. You had guys like hakimla Juan saying, Hey, I'm a Muslim, I don't agree with his reasoning, I don't agree with
what he's doing. What do you think was so complicated for other players, not not just them, but frankly now when it comes to these situations and when they're asked to put sort of their credibility on the line, and they get away a bunch of different stuff, right. Absolutely. I think Shaq has a SoundBite in the film that really actually kind of encapsulates how players may see that.
To your point, I think a lot of times we look at things through the lens of the government or the corporations or the larger entity that's kind of paying us to controlling the space that we're working in. And I think it's very complicated it for players to take a stand um because of course it can jeopardize your
standing with your job, um and your image. And we all know how quickly the media can label people as the villain or can villainize someone who's not, just because we we need heroes and in order to have heroes, we have to have villains. So I think it was complicated. Um. I do, however, see certain players in his life, like Jalyn Rose who was there with him at the time. Um,
they did. They did cover him, and they did support him, and he did have the support if you if you look at the film from that lens, there was support, but it certainly wasn't the support that I think they would have given him now, and certainly not the support
that the movement behind someone like Kaepernick had. Well. Look, I mean it's an interesting thing as we talk about, you know, player autonomy, which is of course a huge subject in the n b A. When guys are getting more money a in salary, getting paid and be in terms of sponsorship, it gives them more freedom to say this is what I believe. These are the social movements that I want to be supportive of, because if you decide you don't like it and you don't want to
pay me anymore, that doesn't matter. I'm fine, Whereas back in the days that you guys are covering in this documentary that wasn't the case. Right. Well, it's interesting too because you bring up sponsors, and I mean, that's the thing is we never know what the stance of a sponsor will be when we make our own voice heard, and if it's not in alignment with their values or their brand, what that's gonna do to our relationship with them.
Mott mood, his his strength and courage really inspires me because he did not care what he lost because to him, what I learned about him in directing the film is that his freedom and his peace is is being able to say and do what he feels is right no matter what. And so if it means losing his job or losing his image and certain way to to him, that's not the value, that's not success, that's not his piece. So I I really um it's a lot of courage and fearlessness that he had to take on that kind
of approach with such huge entities. And you do a great job in the film of sort of showing how like with life, it all comes back around that that certain people later on after he did lose everything. The years went by and people started to come back around to his message, wanted him leading their basketball camps, wanted him for speaking engagements. So uh, he did the story you follow with his family. He was able to find some of his family. So it's a really as I said,
it's very emotional. It's really deep tail of sort of all of these complicated issues, and I just I don't know. I wanted to kind of turn the camera back around on you and that we know pro sports is a male dominated industry. What was it like for you, as a young female director to be the one to tell the story. It's a great question. It was difficult in some ways. I have an amazing team, some of which are women producers. So I was lucky to have, um
a mixed group, both women and men on my side. UM. Being in this space for a long time now, I've been very accustomed to being one of the only women directors. UM, and I'm definitely a minority. I feel like when we walk in in the room, so to speak, we are at a disadvantage already because people see us as a woman first and a filmmaker second. One thing, I really, UM feel very grateful for Actually was my first conversation with Steven Espinosa from Showtime Sports, the president of show
Time Sports. We had an incredibly in depth conversation about my creative approach for the film, and we were on the same page. We spoke the same language. I shared with him that I wanted to tell motmod abdul raub story through kind of the lens of shadow boxing, that his journey was a very inner journey, facing his shadows to find his light. We talked about him being a fighter, and we talked about it being more than basketball, that
basketball was the vehicle. And I remember Espinoza saying that this is the story of so many other things, a mental health activism. UM. But I think for me, I tend to I tend to trust what comes my way. If it's a yes, if it's for me, it'll find me. And I felt this film was for me to tell UM. I think that I've been prepared for this journey. I converted to Islam in two thousand and three, so I had a very personal relationship to converting to a religion myself,
and I didn't grow up with that religion at all. Um. So similarly to Mot Mood, I was able to relate to that part of his journey from the spiritual lens and just just seeing kind of this space. We've grown a lot. There's a lot of initiatives for women in film now where diversity and inclusion women in film behind and in front of the camera is actually a thing, kind of like activism at the intersection of athletes is a thing. So these things weren't big back when mot
mood took his stand. Now they're they're actually trendy. It's it's it's acceptable. In fact, it's applauded. We want more women in a film. We want to see people take a stand for what they believe in. So I feel super grateful to be able to direct a film like this at a time like now. I mean, look, obviously, when you say things that are meant to come your way, do this was obviously meant for you. This film, it's an incredible achievement. I found it, as I said, just riveting.
I can't wait until everyone else they're out there gets to see the job you did with it, gets to see the film. Thank you Jocelyn so much for being here. We really appreciate it. Thank you so much, Rachel for having me. It's an honor. So excited for everyone to see the film and for all you guys out there, don't forget what's burning. Available every week on Showtime Basketball YouTube. Also on Twitter, Instagram, TikTok all the Things Show Basketball. We'll see you next week.