Muggsy Bogues | Ep. 135 | ALL THE SMOKE Full Episode | SHOWTIME Basketball

to kind of find their lane in the big band's game. Man. Welcome to the show. Muggsy Bogues, what's our fellas? Appreciate how's life going? We know you got your new book, Muggs in My Life from the Kid in the Projects to the Gulfather's small Ball. How's life going for you? Right now? It's going well. Man. I cannot complain, not one bit. You know, people won't listen to it anyway, But yeah, I'm doing well man. Things are going great. Um. This is my second memoir that I'm putting out. My

very first one was in nineteen four. It was called the End of the the Land of Jihnts and that was kind of you know, when they came to me to but they presented to me, and when I decided to do that book, Um, it was mainly when my father had just passed away and my best friend, one of my best friend, Reggie Lewis, had passed away a week right afterwards. So um, and it was kind of mainly talking about me making the NBA and that sort of stuff.

But this one has a lot more substance. Um, it's a lot more information in terms of, you know, some of the players that I had impacted in the league, guys like the longso Marti, Larry Johnson, I got Stephen or doing my forwarding the impact that I had on him growing up. It's more of a passionate book as well. Um, Relationships and men. My wife, you know, which is kind

of unheard of. We got divorce and we was divorced for ten years and then all of a sudden, you know, we found ourselves back to one another that we remarried in which was unheard of. So it's about you know, relationships is about getting back to the community as well as some of the impact that I had on some of the players that I played with. I'm looking forward to to to read and also tell us about your Doctor that was released on the NBA TV. Oh, they

always believe that that was special. Man. I was really appreciate the NBA uh taking that time and going behind the scenes and and giving some attention to you know, my career. Um of course, you know, being the smallest to ever do it, and people not really believing you know, a guy my side was capable doing it. But you know, and for me, you know, it was just the game and um and I never looked at anything different. You know, people don't realize, you know, I was a starter most

of my career. It wasn't you know. I came off the bench when I landed part of my career, especially when I got hurt. And but I had, you know, opportunity to put my stamp on this, on this game, and and and give some inspiration to a lot of guys who now playing the game who didn't believe the day possibly you know, could play at that level. And I'm just grateful that we was able to break down the barriers, not only just myself, to Michael Adams, to

Spud Webs and Charlie Chris as well. The money tell those guys, so you know, you gotta get probs talk to us about your upbringing. We've had a few Baltimore guys on the show that the common theme is it's you know, it's it's tough out there, you know what I mean. Your brother was addicted to drugs, pops uh served some time. What was your childhood in in in teenage years like in Baltimore. Well, it was challenging. You know, there was challenging growing up in the city of Baltimore.

You know, at the age of five, I got shot you no man at the wrong place at the wrong time. And you know, that's the type of environment that we we grew up and but for us, you know, as kids, you don't know any differences like normal It's like normalcy in terms of trying to just adjust to the environment and to the atmosphere that you you know, you raised them um playing you know, trying to pursue that game

as well as trying to grow up. You know again, you know, you have to look over your shoulders quite

a bit. But at the same time, you know, we had a dream that was floating around in my head myself, Reggie Wams, you know, Reggid Whims, and I was like Mutton, Jeff uh He and I grew up together in the inter steady of Baltimore, and being here and I was able to push one another and keep each other on the on the on the same path, motivate one another and take that journey and understand that we had an opportunity to not only do something for ourselves, but do

something for our families and um, you know, so we had to try to, you know, keep out nose cleaned, if you will, make sure that we understood how the importance of what the education was back then, because growing up, you know, big terminology that was floating around was dump jocks, dumb jocks and having players that came before us and you know, the guys like the skit Wise, the Ernie Grahams, Dwayne Wood and Kevin Bush, those guys befause having the

opportunity to witness those guys play the game and taking it as far as they could, but not even to ticket to the highest level, which was the NBA. It just gave us, you know, that that that inspiration that we can you know, change the directory not only for our our families, but for our community as well. In terms of the brand of basketball we have plating out. I want to back put the rook kid, because you

kind of just slid over like it was nothing. You said you got shot at five, and you talked to us about that. Well, yeah, you know, as I said, the neighborhood where we grew up, I mean, growing up in the inter city. You grew up a lot quicker than probably in some of the suburbs, and you're exposed to things that you didn't realize as a kid that

you would be witnesses at that early age. And outside of our apartment building a fight had broken out and coursed me inquisitive mine wanted to see what was going on. I snuck out the house and one of the kids took a rock and broke one of the store owners windows, and the store that came out went straight to his shed and grabbed his double burrow shotgun and just start

shooting in the neighborhood. And fortunate enough for myself, the bullet went over my head, but then all the buckshots went through my arms and then my legs, which I still carry one in my arm to keep me up

and remind us where I've coming from. Um, And you know, those are the things that for me I think I look at it to to two with two folds because at that same time, early on, you know, I used to go try to put through the game of basketball, and a lot of kids used to make fun of me, you know, if the butt of everybody jokes because of my height and the ball was so big and I

didn't know how to control it. But after that incident, in terms of being shot, going through that dramatic experience, I think it shines it changed my mindset because, you know, once again when I went back on that basketball court and heard the kids, you know, hurling all the little small jokes they could possibly come out of their mouth and didn't have the same impact that it once did.

And probably I'm quite sure that the dramatic experience that I just alluded to what I went through by being shot, you know, the least of my words was their words.

You know. I was just still frustrated that I didn't know how to play the game of basketball at the time, and that I didn't have anything to come back them with in terms of being able to compete and shut them down in that regard, when did you feel like you kind of got a grasp of the game and really start to fall in love with the game of basketball. Well at the age of seven, that's when I met my blessing, Mr Leon Howard. I think me and REDG.

Maggie when we both met him at the same time, because we was at our recreation center and while we was down there playing with this ball. Here it is. I just met REDG that day and this little young man come walking up in approaches. He's about five seven. Uh. He was a former collegiate basketball player. He happened to be the director of our recreations and at the time, and he saw us playing with the ball and he asked us where we're interested in learning the game of basketball?

A little that we knew we was meeting out blessing the guy that had all the information that we possibly that we needed to change our whole perspective of life. And with Mr Howell did for us, not only did he drilled us shopping up our skills and still the knowledge in terms of the game of basketball, but he gave kids vision that we didn't think that existed growing up in that inner city. And by him taking that you know, mentorship and that role in terms of kiding

for those individuals in the neighborhood. It changed so many of kids lives and I'm so thankful that we had a guy of his caliber being able to change us and give us a means of what life could be. You know where the nickname mugs he comes from come from playing the game of basketball at the age of seven years. Oh, I'm out there still on the ball.

And I'll tell you before, at the beginning, guys didn't want to pick me because of my size and everything and so forth, and because you know, they thought that they was getting a kid that couldn't compete with all the other kids. And um and one giving morning, I mean one one day, one of the kids couldn't play because they saw me down their plan on the on these milk crates. I you know, because when I didn't get picked, I got a little creative. I just cut to cut the bottom out of milk crates and I

tied it on each end of defense. And I gather a couple of little kids around who wasn't playing, and we had something with great milk Creek basketball that I can never imagine. And then from that, playing milk Creek basketball, one of the kids on the basketball could on a big goal. I should say he had to leave. So one of the kids holler, hey, you little shrimp, you want to play. Of course, this was my moment, my opportunity, because I already felt like I had the skill set

now because with Mr Howe had instilled in me. And then once I played against my first opponent, of course he dribbled the ball. I stole it from it right away, he laid it up, and then he tried to do it the second time. I stole it from him again, gave it to my teammate and he scored. And the third time he tried to get a little more aggressive because he was much bigger than myself, and of course I gave him a fake one way and went around the other, stole it from him again and laid it up.

And then of course this guy got holly man hold on this through the kid out. He had mugging you, man, mugging you all over the place. And it was a show we used to come on every Saturday called the Botary Boys, and one of the characters he was a small guy. His name was Buggy, and they kind of tied my aggressively for playing basketball. And I've been Muggy ever since. I was seven years old. You know, no one,

no my mom and named me Tyrone Curtis. Your high school career arguably one of the greatest high school teams of all time at Dunbar had yourself, Reggie Williams, David Wingate in the late great Reggie low Us, your junior and senior year fifty nine and oh talk to us about that team, in the relationships you developed and just how fun it was. Uh played high school with all those guys that ended up being in the NBA long with yourself. Oh man, that was special time back then.

I mean here it is. It's well before these guys now you do. You know, you do a lot of recruiting where they got these prep schools, they got these guys trying to build this dominant program. We all just looked in the neighborhood, you know, the discrete the school with just right across the street. For myself and my mom, everybody went to dumb By everybody in my family. Um,

same with Redge and wing Gate and all those guys. Um. And when we all got there, I mean we knew that we were we had something special because we compete against one another during the summer, you know, we lived in Lawfare projects wing Gating them lived up to see Sekirk. So we used to play number all the time and compete against them, you know, and I always I always get on them. How we used to get the better

them all the time when we played against them. But when we had the opportunity to play with each other, I mean that was really special. People don't understand that we had eleven guys. Actually it's just a fifteen of those players all got Division one scholarship, all got Division one scholarships. And Reggie William I mean Reggie Loris, the late Reggie Loss I should say Rager was out six man. He didn't even start. He came off the bench. And uh, but you know it was a special time. It was

all credit to Coach Wade. You know, Coach Wade was the ultimate leader. You know, he was the one that understood who we were. He was empathetic, He knew what made his tick, he knew what where we came from. He knew how much talent we have. So we made each and everybody accountable and but more and and also he gave us vision. You know, we had clarity. We understood what the mission was at had but more importantly gratitude. We was grateful, you know, we was really grateful to

be with one another. But we also understood the importance of how to win and how to lose. And fortunate enough for us with enough experienced the losing side, you know, because he was a former professional football player who really was a disciplinary and he really stressed how to conduct yourself one and office was important. Talked to us a little bit because I don't think he has talked about enough the late great Reggie Lewis who lost his life.

Uh why playing for the Boston Celtics. Um. You know, you touched on growing up with him and get a chance to play with him. But what kind of person was he? Off the court? Rag was unbelievable. Him and Reggie Williams, they were too mirrors. They were identical. Both were quiet, didn't talk much. There was assassin when they got on the floor. Their game was kind of similar to one another. The only thing with Red was that,

you know, Rad was more of a slasher. And when he became the first All Star amongst all of us, and he took Boston to Heights where nobody thought they would go. After Lyve Bird every time redg became that guy, and who knew would have happened if Lenny Bos been that him. I mean, that's how special Redd was in terms of his ability to gavinate all the guys around him. I mean rag, I mean he gave m J troubles.

That's how difficult gradual was his length. Um, it was hard for him him in ters because he played both ends of the floor. People didn't understand that Ras played both ends of the floor. He had the total package mid range, he could shoot the three ball, and you never sped him up in terms of wanting to play him at a certain speed. He played his speed every time that he stepped up. Obviously, mental health is something that's kind of new to our community um as black folks,

and new to sports overall. But how hard was it for you when you heard the news that your brother had passed during the game. Well, you know, people don't understand that he collapsed while we was playing in the playoffs, and while we was playing, you know, we just thought that he tripped over Johnny knew his foot and then came to find out it was a little more severe than that. And even when he was growing up, we didn't have no indication that Rudge Ranch had any type

of heart heart problems. I mean, that was always kept within the family. I'm as summing um. We found out like everybody else, when the news came out when he couldn't finish the series when we played against them in Boston, and then here it is. I just left. I just lost my father that week, and then a week and we just lost to the New York Nicks in the playoffs and come to find out Ranch had just passed away.

And I was in Phoenix, Arizona when I got the news, and I had spoken to him probably a week before that because he was now I don't see it was clear, but he was feeling better in the you know, I didn't know he had the permission to work out, to start his you know, conditioning, but that's what he was doing. And it was devastating, you know, its devastate. It was too young, twenty seven years old. I mean, even though we grew up with life expectancy, we didn't think it

was past twenty. But you know, once we was able to overcome that and we was going to prosperous things and to have him at the pinnacle of his career, I mean, it was hotbreak condolences man for the loss of your father and your brother Baltimore and even extending to the d n V region. Why has there been

so much talent to come out of those areas? You think, Well, it's there's a lot of kids who came from there that they look up to, and it's became, I don't want to say as the mecca of the game of basketball,

but it's a hub. It's definitely hub. And it's anytime you got uh kids Now these days, you know, as the tension that the NBA has been receiving, I mean it's overwhelming, and they see guys like themselves out of that neighborhoods out there on that on that dance floor, and that's something that they believe that they want as well. I mean, now we've got this thing is we're as global where we got so many kids that's dreaming, not

just the people does in the United States. So the game has broughtened, the game has grew and having those guys back home and that's why I always tell them guards as a dimond doesn't. So you know, we always got to conduct ourselves the best way on and off the court because we never know who's watching. Body language is a key as well as your skill set, and we got to put ourselves and separate ourselves in order to get the detention that we definitely deserve. And these

guys understand that. We got now programs that giving these guys a platform to be able to operate from. You got Durant, the Mellows, you know, of course in other states with CP and all these other guys. But now we have those platforms where these guys can go to these organizations, these establishments to work on their skill set. You know, we didn't have that growing up. We just had we just had recreation centers. You know, we didn't

have trainers, guys that trained us and skilled. I had a recreation director who happened to knew the game of basketball who just gave us that information, you know, which is still they different today, and that's the way the world is now. So you chose to go to wait for us. Whether what other schools were recruiting you knowing that she was a five three guard. Oh well, you know, I had quite a few schools recruitment. Virginia had Seaton Hall. It really came down to wait for us and seating Hall.

You gotta keep in mind, we was the number one team in the country, so we had slew of coaches coming in trying to pursue us in terms of trying to get us to go to their university. But for me, you know, I always used and people don't understand our practice. A lot of the college coaches, they came to our practice more so that they came to our games. People don't understand that they came to our practice more than

they came to our games. And my motto was they whoever they came to watch, I want to make sure they talked about me. Going out and practice was something that was even tougher than the games. People don't realize we might have had the second best team in the country on the bench. I mean, that's how telling you

how guys were. I mean, people don't hear about him today, but back then, these guys had talent, and they were skillful, and they understood the game, and you know, we had that type of chemistry that bond with one another where you know, I had the understanding that if these coaches come in here the Georgetown the current line is I

want to make sure they talked about me. Even though they didn't pursue me as hard as they did, especially Georgetown, which coach Thomas say that he regretted that he didn't pursue me as hard as he once did. Um. You know, I didn't have any rests because it was all up to me in terms of what I felt comfortable for me and what I felt was best for me and my family. And this was the very first time that me and Reggie Williams had to decide to go to

separate ways. Because keep in mind, we've been playing with each other since we were seven years old. From elementary school junior high school we didn't have we didn't have middle school back then, junior high school, and then to high school. You know, in the summertime we played in Now Recreations Summer League teams. Um, we traveled all the time, the five Stars. So he and I was connected with each other from seven all way up till we wasa

eighteen years old. And then of course the decision for me to go to Wake for US was based on a SEC was the toughest conference back then. My mom, you know, she couldn't afford to travel. My dad was in prison, so they can just turn on the TV every Saturday and watch their little fellow play. So that came down to me in terms of the best decision and seat hall. P J. Collissimo was a little disappointed. I decided to go up there with him because they was really coming at me really hard. They had the

kid Audrey McLeod and those guys. But I felt weight academically as well as uh the basketball rams, I think that was the best spot for what's some of your best memories? You overlapped You talked about the a c C. You overlapped m J. H Lynn Bias in the a c C. What was that like? Oh, that was awesome. I mean again, I felt that was the best conference at the time in terms of the competition. I mean

we was going to every night. She had to face the Mark Price one night, Kenny Smith, the next night, a Spud Waves and Nate McMillan another night Vince Hamilton and next night and then you go down and face Johnny Darkers and you got uh, Tommy Amic and Keith Kalen. I mean, the a CEC was loaded, and then that's only the point guards, the two guards you got m J. And then you're all of a sudden you got Lynn Bays and people don't realize Adrian Branch and those guys.

I mean we had Braddaughty. I mean, you keep going down the list. The a CEC was was tough, and that's one of the reason why I felt that, Um, I wanted to play there because for me, the recognition is the key. And I felt like I played against I played on one of the best hostel teams that

people say that has never been a symbol UM. And I felt comfortable with my skill set and what I was capable of down I just wanted the opportunity and I knew getting that national attention in the a c C will allow me to have that s you was able to win the goal in the Fever Championships with David Robson, Steve Criss some other guys. How was that experience?

It was unbelieable experience. You know, we was the last collegiate team to win the gold medal before they send the Dream team over there in ninety two because David never lost in eight and that year in Olympics, it was unbelievable. I mean back then, you know, you guys gotta I don't know, y'all, just a little too young. It was you know, it was a tervism going on back then. You know, it was outside of that hotel and with machine guns. Um protected us. And I remember,

man Kenny. We was eight uh one game in Spain and because of our activity that we decided to do the night before and we had to run to the to the to the gym and we were start us

back there. And when we ran to the gym, of course Kate Ludoson was out coach at the time, and you know he decided we was playing this he was playing the Germany Tame Germany team and they looked, I mean so all the shape he's got a look like him about forty years old here this week early in the early nineteen and eighteen years old and these guys and looked like they're in the forties and um, but they had us and Kenny, like I said, Kenny and always start us. But we was late to that game,

so he told us to move on the bench. We sit on the end of the bench. By halftime they had us. And you know how in those type of settings it's all about qualifications and you can't these years into certain teams. So of course he put us back in the game. The second half we come back. We all probably by about nine and ten or whatever it is. He took it right back out and put put timmy am couldn't come back in the game. I guess he

was trying to make a poet. But that was a great experience man, playing against the USSR and the Russians Uh Sa Bonus, the truth Sa Bonus back then, um and playing against the Drives and Patrick Vicks of the world, the late Drives and pastor bit. I mean, that was a great experience man, because they was considered professional players. Don't that time we were just collegiate players and being able to accomplish their goal to win the gold medal and stand on that podium, to hold that cut put

the gold medal around your net. Us a little bit about how good first Sa Bonus was because we got you know that he got to the league at a later age and they said he was incredible at a young age. And then we got to see how special Drajan Petrovitch was. So talk to us about both those players at that time when you got the chance to play against something, how good they were. Well, of course,

the bonnet was like MJ Over in the States. I mean he was over he was that type of talent as well as that had that type of recognition for a big guy to have that type of skill set, to be able to pass, to be able to shoot it, to be able to play with your back towards the basket as well as face the basket, that was something that we haven't seen over and even in the States.

So he really, you know, drew a lot of tension in that regards and being able to have that type of you know, ability to now translated into the m day was unbelievable and the tribes and Pastrick it's I mean, people don't understand how great Patrick was. I mean I had the fortunate enough to be able to play him over there when he was playing with Yugoslavia and I had to fortunate enough to shut him down. And he was asking about thirty seven forty points before we before

we played them. The night before we played the Russian team and that was a very big game. Kenny Smith was supposed to have that assignment that night. But I went over to Kenny and told Kenny as we was getting on the floor, let me start off on drive. And if he had, you know, he started to have his little way or something, then you can get on him. Of course, Kenny never had Ourtune get that to him,

because Patrick did. He only have about twelve points that game average and at the averaging round thirty during that tournament, and that was allowed us to you know, to prevail through that game. But those guys Man him and another guy over there, o Scott Smith. You know he was in the Hall of Fame. O Scott was another talented player during that time, during that era. You know, those three guys really stood out some bowling stretch Patrivick as

well as Oscar Smith. Remember hearing something about him, uh, twelfth overall pick in the nineteen seven draft to the Bullets. What was your draft process like in kind of the culmination of you know, starting at seven years old and and and everything kind of year dream teams finally materializing, uh, to allow you to be drafted uh in the NBA. Well, of course that was very special, man. I mean here it is. You wanted to do it, just like everybody else,

Just like all the big guys have done it. You know, none of us small guys at that time didn't have that opportunity. My boy Spud didn't get that opportunity. Michael Adams and those guys, you know, they didn't never experience that. And for me to be able to experience that and be able to go through that process and put myself in that situation, you know, and we was coming up at the time, I was already projected to go late first, early second, as well as Scottie Pippott and myself. And

then after that Chicago Port Smith at the Chicago camps. Yeah, after those two camps, man, that's where the NBA, you know, the coaches as well as the GM they get opportunity to go see you as opposed to the Scots and here and I was able to you know, showcase self skills and and and raised our stock to where I became the twelve player. He became the fifth player chosen. So it was a surreal moment, man, the way that

the world was lifted off my shows that night. Being able to go up shape the commission David Strnhand and put your head on was like I said, it was a surreal. At that point the journey had just really begun. But your rookie year, you got a chance to play with the late great Moses Malone. Rest in Peace and Bernard King two bucket getters. What was that experience? Like? Oh man, it was having Mo was my guy. MO

took MO was my I was most rookie. He took me on his wing and uh just taught me all the dudes and dumps about this game and about the NBA, which um I credit him for me allowing to play fourteen years and get paid for seventeen Moses was some special. Having the opportunity to to to play with him and throw that ball to him and run that flow with him was breathtaking. But not only that, but we became so close off the flo. I mean when I gree earn.

Course he was at the wedding, and that was devastating because things happened right afterwards, you know, not too far, not too many months afterwards. But so but anyway, playing with him, man was special. He was my guy. He called me the Baltomore pimp, you know, because of where I came from, Baltimore, and the type is you know, always coming with all types of color skins, pink skins, grain skins, you know, in terms of shoes. And he used to call me the Baltimore Pimp. But I missed

him dearly and b K men. B K was a walking bucket, as you said. You know, he was coming off of that injury off his one leg. And he always say, moth soon as I get crossed half court, I need to I need to get I said, I be, But I always tell I said, well be, you can't take no more than two dribbles, damn it. You know I want my sis. So uh. He always understood that it was a great playing with those guys men I'm hall of famous, and allowed me to be who I was. So I was grateful to be able to you know,

have at that time with him too. Greats. But what do you feel like your personal welcome to the NBA. My personal welcome to the NBA moments was when when Buck Williams gave me eight stitches. You know, I went down and we play in New Jersey and he am going down trying to get this little loose rebound and in the lane should say and he let me know that this is not where God belongs. And I caught a big elbow right across my eye from that moment.

So that was my introduction to the women's You also got a chance to play with and everybody was fascinated at the time that obviously he was the tallest player and you were the shortest player. What was it like playing with him? It was my guy, I mean met him and mo man, God almighty, we was like everywhere. You've seen through two of them, you've seen me if you had a little down. Um. But I tell you, man, that Nudy was funny. He was so funny man that you know, he got to keep in mind that we

didn't have uh proudly planes back then. We all flew commercial. You know that's been back in the A eight We you know, teams didn't have those type of situations. So and when we go fly, you know, it's only eight first class seats, so they went by seniority. So of course Newton I got bumped in the back and we in the back end. You could imagine his knees all up in his chest because the seats stuff. So dad on small and he back there trying to tell me

how he killed lions with a spell. I'm like, what what kind of line you guys got the new teeth in them out talking about you killing lines with a spear. But he was funny, man. He was such a treat to be with. And I'm so happy and so proud of bo bo Um because he's such a slight image of his daddy, even though the skill set is totally different. You know, new always, you know, I would he just one story minute and I was playing one on one

and Moses was just geeking it up. It was geeking it so, I mean knew, like shoot his a little sling shot like by his ear, you know. You know, I had a forty four vertical chump. So he went to go shoot it and I blocked the shot. Boy, that pissed him off, and Moti just all over. He changed me around that damn Jim about fifteen minutes he couldn't catch and you know, and then when he tried

to catch me. You know, I was a wrestler, you know, wrastler back in my day, so I kind of grabbed his little lags, put him up, and the threw him up a little bit of egg walking. I could slam me any moment now, you know. So that was one of them. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that was one of those things I had to you know, you know, wrastling was my thing before basketball. So you blocked this shot, anyonemost dipped him, that's all bad for big fella. NBA

Expansion Draft. They had the two teams Sharlts in Miami Heat. Yeah, yeah, man, that was I'll tell you what. That was another opportunity where I got another with the with the that that ugly head the NBA shows this ulf because I just the season had just ended. We just lost to Detroit in the playoffs, and we had I had my exit meeting with West umself. You know, Ma and West. We're sitting there in West was telling me, you know, all the positive things and what we're gonna try to get

to next year. You know, we had a bunch of older guys on Washington, you know, Moses and Burn, our kids and those guys. You know, they were stepped to the end of their careers and I had tered Catlins and I had the young John Williams at the time. So West I said, well, you know, mothers, we're gonna bring in a lot of up a lot of up Temple guys. You know, we want to play fast page who want to do this and that? And I felt excited. I thought that, you know, we always on the same page.

But as soon as I got home to my town home, I got a call from my agent, David Falk and David David Ashman, you know, how do I feel about going to Charlotte? And I'm like, Shalott, who what is Charlotte? I didn't realize the special team was coming at the time. He said, it was a new team Charotte harn is about to come in and it's a possibility that they're really interested in and they might and they want to

take you. I said, what I just left my exit meeter with West and West was you know, talking about who they you know, they're going to bring in some guys that more or less up Temple style of play. He said, well, they just told me that they wasn't gonna protect you and you're gonna go to Charlotte and so so, m f this is some bold man. You just kind of just sitting there and told me. Yeah. And that's when I learned the neglehead that that up

the head of the business. And but it was a match made in heaven for me, you know, coming to Charlotte. Uh even playing here for four years in the Carolinas, so the people was aware of who I was, and you know, playing with guys like Dell Curry and Rex

Chapman at early on Kirk Rams and Kelly Trapruka. You know, I was just hungry, you know, I felt, what, this is an opportunity for me to go down here and make something of my career and try to make the best stuff it regardless of this situation, you know, look at the positivity and try to, you know, get what you want out of it and see, you know, if he if he worked out in your favor, which it actually did. What was the energy like with an expansion team?

Obviously it being new, they knew you from Wake four, so it made sense, But what was the energy? How big were the crowds? You know, obviously expansion is new, so your first season, what was it like with with with with all those uh things? Man, this crowd was unreal. Do they realized Charlotte was? I mean, when we I was surprised because I just I knew they knew college basketball. I didn't think they was. They didn't know anything about the professional sports. But we had the very first night

we had twenty four thousand and attended. The men had tuch seeds on and then women had their gowns, so it was a formal affair for them and of course, we lost the Cleveland about forty points that night, but believe it or not, as we walked off the floor, they stood up and gave us a standard ovation. We knew we we knew that was something we knew. We was in a special place and uh and we just couldn't wait to you know, to get the season going, to try to win as money games as we possibly can.

You know that very first year we only won twenty games. Didn't come back. The year after that we won nineteen games, and then from that moment on we started climbing the ladder with thirty one, forty four and fifty five and fifty five and so forth. So but we started getting good draft picks. But it had to do, you know, with the great selection of bringing the Lonzo Mornings, the Laria Johnson, the Kendall Gills and other worlds for us

to get over that hunt. But at the beginning of the town support us, we broke attendant rectors for nine straight years. That was the Colosseum, right, it was the cons sum that was over on Tavola Road was as opposed to the one that is uptown. Yeah, because my my first year I played, I played one year that My first year is two thousands and thousand one. I played uh in the Colors. Um okay, yeah, yeah, because two thousand and two that's when they left. Yeah, yeah,

they left in two thousand two. Actually, so your first year in the league was when you I thint you came in. He said, I got drafted. I got drafted at ninety seven, but I bounced around overseason, came back in in two thousand two thousand one. Talked to us a little bit. You touched on them, but but what it meant to add people to the roster like Larry Johnson and Alonzo Morning As you said, you guys continue to get better as a franchise and and started making

your playoff appearances. But how how how talented with those young guys, and how much did they help uh you and your team? Yeah, I mean that was I tell you, that was the beginning. I mean our first major draft pick with j R. I mean, well, rat Shat was the first, but then we got JR. Re we started climbing. Then when we got well, we got Kendall Gill and then we got LJ. You know that that was the beginning.

That was the beginning because we came off for thirty one uh winning season that year, and then when LJ came, you know, we was able to elevate all way up to forty four wins his first game, I mean his first year, and then the next year with qua Alonzo, and then you know the history from there was. I mean, that's from now on, that's where we started to really elevate our franchise, even though it was over was with us for just three years. Within those three years and

l J fifty five, I think I've been his fifth year. Um. I mean, we put ourselves on the national level. I mean, we was one of the young, hot upcoming teams at the time, along with Miami and Orlando. UM, because Shock and Penny was over there, we was, we was right there amongst all of them. You know that during that time, these guys at this, especially Larry, you know, his rookie year.

I recalled telling him, you know, right at the midpoint, did you want to win the Rookie of the Year, Because at the time, Matumbo had a little slight edge of him and he caused a lot come a little fellows, I don't want to win the book at a year. So I told him, Okay, Well, we're gonna get you every over the year, and I specifically kind of focused on l a lot during that time. Um, but it

was easy because he created the opportunities. I mean, we're running, you know, you can kind of have the means of looking one way and making a guy follow that direction, and you know, you get the ball the other direction. So have him win that award was special because that's the bond that he now always had developed with the relationship with one another, the trust with him, Alonzo del Rights, all the guys men. The bonds that we built with

one another is second another. Take us back a little bit. The East in the late eighties early nineties was I mean you could punch people, you could take him out of the air. You could do all that and not get kicked out of the game. Fast forward by the time me and Jack played, if you push someone, you get suspended for two games. What was the physicality back I like back then with the bad boy pistons, Riley's knicks in Jay's bulls were on the rise. What were

those battles like for you personally? Well, it was great for me. I mean I didn't have any problems. But the probably people think because you're small that you had some kind of issue with. Now, I mean that was the are that we played, and that's how I grew up, you know, And that's why, I mean we had big guys camping in the lane. You know, we had that three seconds or you had to dip in and dip out.

Now they're big answer was just standing there where you couldn't go down there and sort of you know, just do what you want you hand no free lane, But that's the game, man, That's what the game was. You can hand check you, you know, kind of kind of guide you where you wanted you to go. You can come across lane for and that's me. And you know, you get hit in forms of just you know, delaying your player. Whish that wasn't a foul um. And you can curl guys, you can hung. I mean, you can

do a lot more physically. You can be a lot more physical with the guys. But that's why people kind of talk about the game in that regards, because I mean it was real. I mean, you just couldn't get to your place that you wanted to go just as easy as you wanted to, you know, And that's one of the reasons why they created some of these rules and trying to make the game faster for the fans and more you know, entertaining and that sort of stuff

where the lane is wide open. Um, you don't have nobody camping in the lane, you can't hand check, you can't touch, um, you can't improve in one progress. So it's it's all those type of things that coming to play today to where guys of our always feel like, you know, they can play in this era. And I always say, any NBA player for like a planning you know, you know that's just the conference within themselves. You know,

that's why they became NBA. Uh yeah, but all and actually they can't because there's some soft motherfucker's out there, you know, just as well as I know a lot of new motherfuckers would not be nowhere around well looking at this, looking at this right here, I can tell you it's a lot of guys won't be able to play in our era. I mean, because we're looking at skill sets in terms of how they want to justify the games. You know, we had seven ftags playing with

the back towards the back. You know, we got seven foot is now bring the ball up the court. So the game was totally different. And in that regards and looking at these guys how they dribble, man, I feel like I would have to feel that stand in the basketball. I mean, I mean just looking at it in terms of, you know, with the way they teach the game now and you know with you know, I can get it to a lot of stuff with the fund of me, with the two balls and all that type of stuff.

But I don't want to go there. You know, the people how they feel like they need to shop in their skills that let them go do that. Right. You got a chance to play against m T. MJ in college. Uh, you guys are in the league at the same time you're you start to see him build his legend. Any great memorable matchups or stories against MJ you could share, Well, you know, MJ. He always like like what I would say.

You know, we like the funk with you. You know you know that, you know he just that's just who we are with one another when we come in contact. I mean even off the court to this to this day, you know, walking around, he'll put his hand up high trying to you know, for me to give him a high fire and I'll put my hand down low and then you come down and give me a low fire. So it's just it's just not compete, I mean, compete

against one another. But but but m man, you know he always tell you, you know, especially with me and playing the game, you know, Lois. It was some stuff that's going on in the internet way. They say that he called me a midget, which is not true. Um, and they felt like he had some kind of impact, which is not true. He always called me short, low fella. Yeah you need lower assays, low ass and that short stuff. So we're playing against them. Of course, he got the ball.

He just came back from from retirement. He got the ball up in the air, and I'm like him, I'm playing him on the one on one. Of course, everybody in my team know that I don't like help. Don't come and help me where the guys don't come in because yeah no, no back and try to back me down because guys didn't used to playing that back to the back anyway. But anyway, this particular moment, and I guess it became infamous because he got it as a card.

As I were holding the ball up and I'm looking right at him and I'm talking and I'm talking ship to him. I'm telling to come on, what you're gonna do. And then all of a sudden he starts to try to back me in, and try to back me in and try to back men. And then all of a sudden he tried to turn around shoot this little jumper. I smacked it down, but they called illegal defense on somebody because they wasn't then they was gonna across the line.

But I always working with that, tellim to you know, you know that was still don't you know that back and forth? That's what I do. You know that ball, that ball defender, I'm gonna make you think about that when you got that ball in your hand. You make your first playoff of parents, you beat Boston in the first round and lose to the next in the second round. What's the memories of those of your playoff experience, your

first pltoff experience. Well, for one, that was a great stepping stone for the franchise at the first year that we made the playoffs, that was the laws Overy first year. And for him to be able to close it out hitting that shot and being able to you know, prevail against that Boston series was a great moment. For the for the city, for the organization, and for each of us individually, you know, because that was the beginning of our careers in terms of post play, in terms being

are to you know, play after the regular season. So that was a big step stepping stone for us, and we really felt like we was on our way after that moment. And the following years, you make the playoffs, you make two more playoff appearances, but don't make it out the first round. Knee injuries in your time in Charlotte, how was that feeling, knowing that the the injuries stopped

you from continue to be great in Charlotte. Well, yeah, well I didn't think he was gonna come to end because I was, UMIs that was gonna be tired as a horned uh Me and Dell in terms of what

our involvement was with the organization. But people don't understand during that time, I have given so much, not on to the organization but for the city and sacrifice a lot, restructed my contract and so forth, and all that um from the from nine four, I mean, you go back, look, you know I was top three and it says you

know it was abster double double one of me. It was close to having to double double UH throughout the years UM where I was one one point short of it UH several times, but I was had one when I had my knee issue. People don't realize I was playing on one knee, you know. Here it is they questioned about your five three and this and that. But I was out there playing on one knee. Still was able to be productive and run my team and so forth.

And I was bad to come back because I I missed the entire season the year before UM due to my bone bruise. And when I discovered actual puncture, you know, I was able to down to get strength back in my cause and pull that pressure off my knee. And then they was talking about, well we need you. We would you wind up playing on one day. I don't understand. You don't have to play in the back to back games and this and that. So I accommodated them and doing so, and we won fifty six games that year.

All right, we lost to New York in the playoffs, and now there's time to give me my extension, and it is they bring in a new gym. So all of a sudden, I don't even gonna ain't gonna mention names. I don't wanna mention names because I don't want to go there. They bring new gyms and all this and that. Of course, you know, coach Jorge and of it and them had promised me that I would retired there. So they bring in a new gym. They decided to not give me my extention, and they created all this chaos

and come back the next year. They weren't gonna let me practice, you know. They so I had to file grievous. They weren't gonna let me practice, not even because they made a trade. They brought someone in. I ain't gonna say no names, and they didn't want me to compete against them after we just finished playing against him, beating him, all sources, you know, having all sorts of success on who they bring in. We need a name, Come on, I know, I knew it was coming. That's why I

set it up that way. That's here. But here did they put up there? Wesley? All right? So they had they had Dave Cole had Dave Kyle was down there, and they had Paul Paul Silas with assistant coach. So here it is come back to practice. That filed a year. They try to lock me out. And they locked me out, They locked me out of practice. And what year is this? Is this five? This is ninety seven? This is nothing. Yeah,

I got traded. Uh, this is ninety seven when Jack was asked me that my year was coming to an end. So right after we lose in the playoffs to New York and all this and that and come back and I think I probably had one of the best series throughout everybody, but that's here there. So they bring him in. They didn't want me to practice. They try to hold me out. So I'm like, we damn, I mean, you brought somebody in. Woll I can't compete against him? I mean, this is what y'all want to m so forth a bit.

So they didn't let me come. They didn't let me practice, so I had to file for a grievance. And then they brought they let me come to practice. Now while I'm in practice, so they're leaving me off for all the teams, the first team, the second team, even if they're a team. So I can't even get on the floor to practice with any of the guys. And Paul Sot at the time, Paul si was the since coach and I'm like, Paul, this is some bullshit, man. I mean, really,

this is how y'all gonna treat me. This is how this is y'all treat me. Now in terms of all of this, after I just came off with one leg playing with you guys, you begged me to come back and play, and y'all gonna treat me like this. Anybody in the organization knew it was going It was wrong what they was doing, but anyway, it came to UH doing a regular season when they came to me and

asked me, well, Muggs, we gotta treat well. Before that happened, we played against New York a preseason game in our arena, which in our arena everybody used to see me as a starter, playing all these minutes and so forth. Here it is, I'm on the bench. I didn't get in one minute of the game. Here it is, We're down by twenty five to New York, and the crowd was

going crazy, We want Muggsy, we want Muggs. So that just got under Dave Collins again and he felt like he didn't want to go on the rest of the season under those conditions. So they made a trade for me and Golden State with b. J. Armstrong. Of course I could have blocked the trade. And I asked Tony Delp, you know, how was he comfortable? Did you want to move on because they was treating him wrong? And t D said, must I go? Man? Matter me, they ain't

playing me anyway? The business as you say, I want to rewind real quick. Ninety six, you guys draft Kobe Bryant and obviously we all know he's traded to the Lakers for vlade. What was that experience like? Obviously no one really knew he was gonna turn into the player he was, But what could have been you know, you got would have had a year with him at least. Uh, what was that like during that time? Yeah, yeah, it would have been special. But we understood Coke didn't want

to come to Charlotte. He wanted to play in the bigger market. And once because once we came to find out that that the Horns were just taking them based

on the request of the Lakers. Of course, you know, because he was a high school player, getting a lot of height, and you know, at the time we wasn't really found much, but we was hearing so much about him, and I personally start to watch a little bit highlights of them and was getting a little excited, like, this is the possibility of this, you know, Jumper, come in

and do something special. But then we found out that, you know, it was a means of him wanting to play in that bigger market, and so we just realized that who was gonna be the next available player that we was gonna be able to talk quiet You shared the court with Del and obviously it's well documented. Uh the kind of big brother if you want to call it, or second dad, you were the Steph and Seth. Uh, you know, not knowing who obviously Steph was going to

turn into years later. What do you recall most about seeing them run around? Uh, all over the locker room in the gym, Yeah, man with special man if our kids and his kids are very close, and just having the kids in the locker room. Man, that's what this is what it was all about. Family, you know, having them around, being able to be part of the things that we was doing. Then enjoy playing basketball, and uh, you know, Dell and I played leven years together, you know,

all of my fourteen years. We played nine here and in Charlotte and two in Toronto and having the opportunity to you know, be with Steph and Steth and play with them and have an opportunity to have an input on their masturation in terms of the game of basketball. I mean, it's priceless for me. It's a self rewarding Um saying he was able to carry the game to the host level, which is the NBA, and the saying Steph now ship become known as one of the greatest

shoots ever to lace up in the NBA. That's mind boggling. That's my emboggling for me, you know, giving them a lower they're playing around and he four years old and of a setting down, he up there shooting the lights out. Man, It's surreal. But I'm so happy and blessed for those guys, for his family because they deserved him, you know, because they worked extremely hard. No, Steph as a kid, he wished he you know, he was a dream to get the five three because he felt like I got five three,

I could play in the NBA. Yeah, yeah, yeah, So that was special, man, saying them guys being able to fulfill their dreams. You mentioned the trade to go to the state. Uh, you spent some time in Toronto with a young Vince Carter who out the gate was a monster, but also T Mac talked to us about both those guys and did you see again Vince was hit the scene going crazy, but did you see T Mac had what he had in him to become the star he became absolutely. I mean I looked at those two guys

like that. I looked at LJ and SOO when they first came into league. You know, they was hungry so much talent. And I always remember with Mode had always told me in terms of being able to have that longevity career, understand the importance of how to conduct yourself on and off the court. And I personally took those guys under my wing because I wanted to make sure that they had that opportunity to be the best, best version of themselves because this league can be so cruisier,

especially to people that's out there coming after you. And when I got the opportunity to play with Vince and T Matt, I mean my eyes lit up because they was a little totally different from L G. Z Oh, these with guards to where they had this ability to create and to be able to, you know, in the highlight realms, the realms that they had was was you know, it was amazing and just listening having having their air,

being able to have their air because they was hungry. Um, they was willing to listen and just telling them and teaching them. And you know how the dudes and dumps to go about yourself and go about to be professionals, I mean, and saying how they're able to put their career together. It's priceless, man, It is priceless. That's what it's all about. I know. Sometimes, I mean, we get used to seeing such amazing stuff all the time that

it doesn't really a us anymore. But with those two in particular, when you, like I said, when you saw them playing some of the stuff they were doing, did you ever catch yourself in a moment like, oh ship, I gotta snap out of this because I'm still playing, or or anything like that, Because I mean, you know, Vince was making every highlight. Really you can imagine Team Mack when he got his opportunity, he was doing his thing. Were there any times where they just kind of caught

you in in all situations? Oh yeah, in practice every time, I mean in practice they'd be doing some real stuff. But then in the game. I mean I gave vincel pass. I didn't think he was going to catch him. We was playing to Charlotte Horns. Believe it or not. I threw it and I thought I threw it too high, Like damn, it was exactly right, and no such thing. This kid caught it. And not only did he catch it,

he was aimed to carry it to the basket. And I would like stopped me saying, like my name, you know, I just man, that was that I'm telling you, man. I mean it was effortless too. I mean his little routine warm up, just go up and just touch the top of the box on the backboard, you know, and it just feel. It's not like a run to jump, just a one lott a little one up jump. And I'm looking at man, where these kids get bats like that?

You know? And this thing is natural bounced. But the skill set was something that I was kind of impressed with, you know. The jumping ability was one thing, but the skill set. And I didn't realize that Vinska shoot the ball as well as he did, as well as Team Mat as well as Team Mac. I didn't realize those guys was can shoot the ball as well as they did.

You step away from the game in two thousand one, the shortest player ever top twenty five, top twenty five career and assists, played four two years and had a hell of a resume. Bro, Do you have any regrets? No regrets. You know, I was sixteen on the list before I left. When I first retired, and the reason I retired was mainly because my mom. You know, my mom was batting cancer canceled at the time. UM, I had three years left my contract. I would have played

seventeen years. I got paid for seventeen, but I only played for four team. I'm thankful for Mark Cuban for allowing me to come off the books and not allowed them to go with the luxury tax, and he just paid me all the way through to two thousand four, So I truly appreciate that. UM. But MYMS was going through her her challenges and for me, she meant everything. She meant everything for me, and I just didn't want

to go out there and play no more. You know, once she once she no longer it was part of this. I didn't want to be part of it no more. So I felt like I did enough. I did not did well enough. For my money. You know, I wasn't in no situation, so I just couldn't. I felt like she saw my last game and it won't need to me go play no more control, says I lost. I lost my mom to cancer too, and that's how Jack

and I came so close. My mom was diagnosed with stage four cancer November twenty one, two thousand seven, and died the seven, so twenty six days. So I know what kind of monster um cancer can be. So again, condolences man, that ship is That ship is never easy. Yeah, it's been ship. It's been twenty one years and it felt like it still feel like yesterday, that's mine, But it seems like it just happened. Without basketball in your life these days? How do you satisfy your competitive drive?

I know it's still in. You'll never leave us. What do you mean to kind of get that out? Well, because I got my kids. My kids keep me on my toes. That got gray babies, They keep me on my toes. My foundation. I got a nonprofit foundation where we provide scholarship for trade bound students. A lot of

folks focus on the four year university students. You know, I really want to kind of give a platform to those kids who have ambitions of going to trade skill schools because I believe they can come right out and be productive and get a job right away and be skillful in those positions. And we also we feed the community.

You know, we got a Label Love program where we got and feed the community on Thanksgiving, Christmas, uh Labor Day, so all the holidays we go to the community and we feed feed the community um thousand families per time at a time to where they can come out and not have to make a sacrifice whether you got gasling

your car as opposed to food on your table. So you know, none of my times in that regards, and you know, serving as the basketor for the NBA as well as the Charlotte Haunets, and you know it's a lot of speaking engagements and those in those regards. So keeps me do anything athletically still, you still play pick up, you golf, you do anything like that. Yeah, I'm golfing all the time. I ain't. Don't no more running up and down New Court, no more run up and down

the core ft me. You heard Jack talking. That's when you first got on Jack. Jack has had a new founder. Let me get back and start playing in this body feels like it's gonna crash every time he's done. I don't know what je Jack, Jack, you need to stop that man and tell you you don't need to put that notion in your head because you know, those little toe injuries take a long time to heal. You can get it caught and you did sheet and you can be hurt. That's what we did. Now. Thank God, all right,

thank God for the tree Man, for cannabis. I be in the hospital right now. They take us back to nineteen six. You were part of, to me, one of the greatest basketball movies of all time. Space Jim, Um, how did that opportunity uh come about? Well, my agent was David Falk and Michael sut mean, Michael Patrick. We all had the same agent, and David Falk Warner brothers. I guess they called them and they was interested in some guys that pursuit this movie, which you just a

little to Space Sham. And at the time I just had certain you know, I had surgery on my knee and I couldn't even walk, you know, I was on crutches and so forth, and they had Tim Hardaway come out there and and read my lines, and they told me, well, you know, moy just come on out anyway. You know, we just we're just trying to find a way to make it work. If not, then we're gonna just go

another out. So I just decided to go out there and read my lines, and they kind of created an opportunity where instead of me walking, it was pulling me on the on the trolley, so act like I was kind of walking when moving my shoulders on one of the scenes. Um, but you know, it worked out. It worked out. They they used me, you know, and we had a I mean, damn, we had so much fun on that set. We was there for about three weeks.

That was the same time when they created the basketball Jim for m J, which I couldn't play because I had surgery on my knee. But there was some great pickup games over there, you know set. I remember one morning we were supposed to have a shoot and l J decided to get it. He wanted to get a lotrd trim a lord hack up before the shoot, and he let this white dude cut his head who never cut a black guy head before. So long story short,

he gave him a fucked up cut. So we had to counsel to shoot that morning, and they had to have some life from l A to kind of tighten him up to where he felt comfortable to going back on cameras. But man, there was some good days back there. A lot of card playing, a lot of cards. If they were gonna be a bio pick of your life, who would play you? Oh ship? Who's gonna play? Damn? Yeah? I mean, ain't too many five ft three guys out there that they kind of said, I main, God, who

would I'm trying to think of an active man. I can't think of to anybody out there. May not have to be five free any Kevin kep you Kevin Hart to day you know, care you done? Calf could probably play keV got I did I think like a man with Kevin. I just thought he was a funny guy that he could he could hoop a little bit. He was out there kind of showing that ship Calm might be a good one. We just have to put some makeup on them, lightening them up a little bit. Yeah. Yeah.

He played in the Celebrity Game with up as you know for the NBA. You know when I played in that Celefty game, but yeah, I don't know. Man, that's that's a hard one. That the kind of spell up trying to think of, Man, you you got we come back to LaMelo ball. How is he taking the city of Charlotte in that organization by storm? No, dont fit in perfect. I mean he's a great kid. He understands where it is I think, you know, and meaning by it's a small market, you know, it's not in l

A or New York. Uh. He embraced the town to this town as open arms with embraced him with long sources of hospitality. Um. I just think he really gets it, you know, be so young, he really gets it and he really electrified the crowd. I mean he's a guy kid that uh, bringing his teammates and getting them gavnized and believing enough in the city is following right behind him. So I really think that the feature is bright. I really believe that bringing in I T. Was a big

push for him. And I told Mitch cup shut that. Um. But people don't on the under estimate what I T can mean for a guy like Melow, not just on the basketball court, but off the court as well, in terms of the way this kid was and how you can tuck them, and you never realized he was an All Star, you know, so and they ain't have nobody else on that bench who can give him that type of information, especially at that point guard position, and not

only that he can play alongside of them too. So I was really happy and grateful that he got his opportunity here in Charlotte, even though he even you know, getting opportunities in Dallas and that and the and so forth. But I told him this is the place that he can kind of we you know, we used in his career, especially if this organization look at him the way that I'm looking at him, and how he can impact, you know,

the young fellas on that team. I think you touched on something that Jack and I talked about all the time, is the league is so young now, there's no veteran leadership and how important that really is. Like you said, obviously he can still give you something on the court, but off the court could possibly be even be more valuable at this point, you know, helping guide young players like LaMelo and and some of the other guys on the roster. But it's something we talked about all the time.

I mean, now, I mean when we came in the league, there was always vets thirty seven thirty thirty nine year old guys that can kind of you know, R O G s now that it's the young leading the young. So I think that's a great situation for I T. Obviously a friend of our show, a friend of the program, but but happy to see he landed on his feet there.

But I love what you touched on because I think it's so undervalue these days that they don't you know, as soon as you get past Ship thirty three, thirty three thirty four, that window was shutting, and and and and how important veterans are to help, especially young teams. Oh yeah, you know Ship when you as soon you hit thirty, they're looking at you old. You know, I remember going and let's I said it and they're talking and when you're talking about renegotiation, they really bring that up.

So um, I mean, I'm just so happy for I T. Man. He's a great kid. He's a great kid man that deserves this opportunity, you know, with all he went through it and he had to endure that be back in this position because he got a lot to give, and I'm just happy that he's here. Being able to give it to this organization, which I got a great fond memory of. Outside of the guys on your the Hornets, are there any players you enjoy watching today? Oh? Of course it was of course step You know a little

watching steph CP. You know, not just because he went to wake Fas, but you know, because he's still that general, that guy that really elevates his teammates and people understand the importance of his brilliancy in terms of running the team. You know, running the team is something that is being so underappreciated that people don't really look at that. That's the beginning start of how you being able to be

really successful amongst that team. So I'm happy for that, And I mean I just love the game, you know, I love watching the game k d A Cave, IRV and all the greats that's out there doing that thing from the job Iran, and I know that that's another special kid right there. You know, johjis really putting his lead on notice and people don't understand that. They're looking

at the the athleticism, but the i Q level. It's the i Q level for me in terms of his masturation on that floor, being able to to get his teammates involved at the same time being able to do his I'm gonna put you on the spot right here. Who do you see We're about a few weeks away from the playoffs. Who do you see in the finals? Who do you think is going to represent the East? Well, it's hard to go for me. People keep talking about, you know, the Heat and for me, just Milwaukee. You

gotta go through Milwaukee. You know, Milwaukee is the complete team for me in terms of what they have and what they was able to do. And you still gotta beat the defensive champ in order to become the champs. And the East right now, there's too many unnoticed for me. It's too many concerns with Brooklyn. You never know what's going on with this situation with Kyrie and so forth. How many more games you're gonna be to participate in, you know, and and with the Heat, you know, they

just for me, is something missing. It's just something missing. Even though they got some dogs over there, it's just something missing. Even though with the addition of Kyle Lowry, it's still is something missing to where they're not jelling like they even though they got the best record. But it's something that they're not jelling the way I think they would have like they did in the past when they wanted So um, in the east is Milwaukee and then in the West it's Phoenix. You know, go to State.

Got too many inconsistency things going on. Phoenix has been steady even though CP has been out, but he'll be back. So I got those two and yeah, man, I think Phoenix is too. I agree with you. I mean, I like, I like Golden State, but you know, with steps injury and like you said, too many unknowns, it's gonna be hard to get that rhythm. But Phoenix is state consistent. They got a taste of it last year. Everyone thought

it was luck that they got there. They took that ship to heart and had a chip on their shoulder all year. Got better shout out Money Williams and them boys. So I definitely think, you know, Phoenix, it's gonna be a good year for Phoenix. And you guys know, it takes a lot, a lot to go right in order to win that ship. You know, it just it just takes a lot, you know, and everything just gotta line up.

A little luck gotta happen for you as well. I mean, you just gotta line up and with these other teams with you know, with Golden State, you know, not knowing the situation with Steph and Clay going through his situation and Draymon just coming back. You know, Finish just been steady. They just had an injury with CP, but they've just been steady and they've been playing steady basketball without him. So it's gonna be hard. I think it's gonna be

hard to get them out. And I'm still rival Golden State, but I would love to see CP when the chip go ahead. Jack. Yeah, coming from Baltimore, Like you talk about Javonte Davis and what he means to boxing in Baltimore, Well, you know, we call him Tank, you know he yeah, yeah, Yeah, He's mean everything to be More. I mean that's representation. You know, anybody comes from be More, man, we're gonna we're gonna represent the city the way we where it's

supposed to be represented. You know. And he's a blue collar. I mean, he's a kid that understands where he is and where he comes from, and he lived his life in that in in that way you know, he's been Now he's being very smart and in terms of keeping himself out of the lime life and negative situations. He's all about his business, he's about his family, you know, his little girl. I'm just loving everything about the Tank and I'm just so proud that he's able to, you know,

be able to make it through those situations. It's growing up in the inner city of Bmo. But because people, you know, we all have stories. Everybody have challenges, you know, but when you're able to, you know, overcome those adversities and see them guys man being able to reach the pinnacle of success, you know, it's it's self rewarting. For me, I'm a big Take fan and I've seen it changed

with my own eyes. You know. We go to all his fights and is af there's one fight he was early on how flashy he was, you know, and how he kind of now it's true professional, true professional. Yeah, he's preparing and a lot of stuff that he was doing off the court. I think he got away from and locked into being a pro. And and it's definitely showed. And all his performances up from from that last perform but three fights ago they had where he didn't prepass.

So I'm a big time Take fan. You do is there any other boxes that you like to watch or in any other fights that you want to see in two well fights, man, I'll tell you what they the fights that's out there. You got special out there. We we got who else we got out there? We got we got goog y'all, we got Fermin firm and coming back right. Yeah. We gotta see we gotta say. We gotta see Thurman. Thurman been up and down. Yeah, and Carnello. You know what I gotta I need. I need to

see Carnello. I need to see Cannello fight somebody. Man. He need to fight a real now, that's what he needs to do. I need Yeah, yeah, I need to see him fight. You know, uh uh? Who we got that I'm missing? I'm missing one listening one, not not Porter Charlo, not not Challos, not Challos. I'm missing one. Crawford. Crawford, Yeah, Crawford, Yes, yes, him, That's what I was missing. Crawford. Yeah. But Cannello gotta

fight somebody. You know, he's been dancing around and on the first year I believe he for was was Mayweather, and that was too early for him to be fighting Mayweather when he for them, and and he's still arguing with Triple G and Triple and now he's still arguing with Triple G, trying to fight Triple G again. He needs to move on. You to one of them Charlotte boys and fight fight being to beat as I think being to be has to beat him, that's possibility. I

like to see it though. I'd like to see that one. But that Triple G. Yeah, you he hit it, you hit on. You hit a good note there about Triple G, you know, but he Uh. I don't know who's out there for Tank though, I'm trying to think who would be a good fight for Tank that that way class he I'm happy fighting Roll. I'm happy he's he's getting a chance to fight. Has some trouble. But Ronnie talks a lot and ROLI think he he just the best things then boxing since boxing started. But he's one of

those guys that take me to knock his face off. Tink. He's gonna shut him up real quick. He ta, he really that. I don't even know why I really put it. But he want that But he want that bag. He want that bag. Yeah, he want that bag. Yeah, he definitely wanted that bag. But let's since you on our podcasts, which we're happy that you came on. Let's talk about

your podcast. How did you get into the space. Oh, she's just messing around with Oak Tree and Twirl, you know, and and just talking the game man, and well, you know, especially when you get around Oak and bringing all source of toppers up into where it's gonna go. It starts off one way and it's gonna be off another, you know,

just just the way my man operate. And I love him for it, man, But you know, just talking to Game, and I felt like, you know, we had something to offer based on where we came from and our journeys. And Earl. Earl got so many damn stories, you know, him playing with the Doctor, Jay's or the world and Isaiah and so forth. I mean, he he's a storyteller. But you know, Tree, oh Tree got so much too. Where I just need to just sit back and listen,

you know. All right, we're coming down to the home stretch. Quick hitters. First thing to come to mind. Let us know you plus four any players that have ever played in the NBA. Who are you bringing with you? Oh? Ship me plus four? Well, I'm gonna gona just stay with my boys that you know I'm gonna bring with me. I got del carry with me, I got Oak with me, I got l J with me, and I guys Zoe with me. That's a mob. That's a mob. Stuck on the island. Which three shows are movies? You're watching, oh,

stuck on the island. I'm watching Space Game. I'm watching Caribbean through Seasm. That's a good that's a good basketball movie too. Yeah, all the movies that I was in, all the scenes that you were known as obviously one of the toughest defenders. Your top three toughest matchups, you felt like magic was one Penny and GP. I just I just watched uh hardbook Classes Class night. It was ninety three Phoenix versus Seattle in the playoffs, Charles Barkley's

MVP year Verse Shawn Kemp and GP. That ship was a battle boy. The game was so different back then. The absolutely sat and watched the whole entire game and just saw, like you said, back to the basket, the tight curls, that the guiding the hand, how GP would try to and they started double teaming Kevin Johnson because he was too fast that it was dope forgot about kJ well, kJ was special boy Kje five Dinner Guests, Dad are Live? Five dinner guess. Oh, Michael Jackson's one.

I got Martin Luther King is too, I got Mandela is three. Yeah. And then of course I would love had the opportunity to sit down with Mom and gay, you know, and for me, I did have an opportunity to sit down with her. But I would love to have a back at my identitable was my ms My answer? Very nice? Nice, nice favorite artists from the eighties and nineties, like who did you used to listen to? Uh preparing for games? Oh? Man? You know back then, that's when

hip hop was just getting the beginning. You know what I mean? But you know, I gotta go with my man trial called quest because I was in this song, you know, to tip, I gotta get tipped some a little love. What guests would you like to see on our show? But before you answer this question, you asked you have to help us get your answer on our show? What guests I'd like to see you guys have on the show, And let me see what kiss? Who will be?

Somebody that's really you said? You guys have everybody on dying to get on the show because I'm a Texas boy. Oh you're talking about l j J. Grandma, Ma that we need a show. We need I have a show. Okay, yes, yes, I work it. Well man, that's a rap, Buggy. We appreciate your time and everything you've done for this game, the inspiration you've been and continuing to take care of your community. We love, We appreciate you, man, and thank you for your time today. I appreciate you guys. Man.

I've been a big fan of both of you guys for quite some time. I just really appreciate the platform that you guys created now, but more so what you gotta for your careers, with your family's and so forth. Man, keep spreading that love and keep doing that positive work out there. Well, that's a rap. Muggsy Bogus. Appreciate your basketball on YouTube and the I heart platform, Black Effects. We'll see y'all next week.