Mahmoud Abdul-Rauf | Ep 169 | ALL THE SMOKE Full Episode | SHOWTIME Basketball

last name because he had the same last name. At one point I used to call him last Jack and I uh obviously a part of the Showtime families. So we were able to watch your documentary called stand Um on Showtime. What do you want the viewers to come away with after they get a chance to hear your story and your words? And as always a tough uh question to answer, but um whatever whatever resonates with him. Man, you know, my my story is everybody has a story.

I say that all the time, and everybody's story is impactful in his own way. But uh, you know, coming up from nearly nothing, uh single parent, the struggles that came with that being in many ways miseducated, the struggles that came with that, and how I evolved out of that. Uh,

having a neurological disorder. You know that so many people suffering now, you know, so many children could be the suicide with all of these mental challenges and uh, and then just the evolution of my education and positions that I ended up taking that cost me my career, you know, social political. So there's a lot to game from. I mean, you would have one of the most powerful stories. It's

obviously a human story, but particularly it pertains to sports. Uh. We briefly just touched on it right before we sat down before we got on air. Mentally, what was it like going back and like you said, you always have those feelings, but they kind of rehashed some of those feelings from from anger to frustration to despair too, you know, the joyful times of playing. But what was it like kind of somewhat purging all that and bringing all that

back out for the world to see. It was a challenge, man, it was anytime you're trying to uh tell your story again, you know, there's a lot of information that you thought, you know, you forgot about, or that you actually forgot about the re emerging in the storytelling process and it hits you. It's therapeutic. Uh, their moments, Man, when you break down and cry. You know we've seen yeah, yeah and so yeah, and so that's that's basically man. It's

it's uh, it was time consuming. Uh, the energy that you have to put in just read. Look, we didn't grow up with the habit of keeping journals. You know, so many things we forget and so that it was definitely time consuming. And I'm just happy that we finally got to this point where we finished it. And it's a great, great director with Joscelyn Rodes doing doing doing the take on it. So I'm excited to see what people think. Gulfport, Mississippi, single mother. Um, I noticed what

that feels like. I grew up in that and uh, your siblings literally had to hunt hunt animals and squirrels just to have food. Um, I know what that's like, but I don't know what that's like. Can you kind of like take us into that feeling of growing up in that situation? Man, Look, it's it's tough, and I know that's cliche, man, just not knowing all the times when your meal are gonna come from and also resisting urge day in and day out, having to go steal,

you know. And so we were fortunate to be in an environment where we would see some pet trees here and some blackberries on the side of the road that we can get to sustain ourselves. And uh, you know when mom, you know when my mom did finally was able to make groceries here there, or aunt or an uncle that asked something. You know, a lot of African Americans, I think we eat fast because that first, that first place, especially if you have a secon. When you get that

first wee faster you can get that second one. So that's the way it was with us. Man. And but I'm grateful. I'm grateful to have come out of that experience and and those experience have a way of humbling you for sure, making you very appreciative and grateful for for everything that you have and also sympathizing with other people don't have, because you know what it feels like, Yeah,

you know what it feels like. You talk about um your younger days, seeing actually seeing members of the KKK marching. What's crazy to me is I played and I played in Indiana in two thousands, five six, and they were still having clan rallies up and down the major streets. Seeing that as a young kid, you know, we hear about racism, but I actually didn't see actual KKK running never in my life. Actually it's up to us has

the parade? How damage in it is that to a kid to be able to see that, and what was your mentors being able to go through that as a youngster, you know it was it was hard to see, but it was confusing, you know, because you live in a society where you taught certain values the way things should be right. And at the same time you're like, well, if this organization it's so terroristic the way you say it is so filled with hate, how can you allow them to exist the way they do right and to

brand this ship? So as a young boy, it was just it was confusing. You know, it ain't goered at me at the same time, and and then you know the confusing part two was, man, you didn't know who was under those those sheets, right, and so you start looking at people very suspiciously, right because people were smiling in your face, but you know, stab you in your back. And so your whole existence after a while just come in.

You just don't know who to trust anymore, and so you smile, you your cordial, but you always keeping your guards up, you know, especially as as as black people, you know, we what we've gone through, it just heightens it. It's like you can never truly drop your guards. It's

hard to be a kid like that, almost impossible. Yeah, but there's a good side of that too, you know, I think we live in a society where they dumb us down and they extend childhood right to the point where were nineteen twenty and you still this is a child. You know, technically in some countries they're thirteen years old and they have adult responsibility, grow up faster. So in that sense, there's some positives that come out of it too. You learn fast, you know, look at the world a

little differently, and it toughens you up. You said, look, man, you know you have to decide. You have to make decisions. Man I gotta And that's a that's a part of it too, in terms of what propelled me, not just cliche of being great, because like, man, I gotta do something. I gotta take care of my family, and you try to figure out what am I good at and then you gotta go for it. You gotta go for broke. And so some good came out of it. But it's

it could be traumatic and and not can be. It is traumatic traumatic, you know, we try to, we try to you know has been and the people be tough about it. But now that stuff is traumatic. That stuff stays with you. Like I'm fit to three years old, and as I'm talking about it right now, I still

feel the emotions coming from that. Yeah, I mean I had an incident um my senior in high school where white kids and as my sister spent on their car or niggers, I signed it up welping him as a big brother, and I got spending three months away from going to u c l A. Why myself, I was suspending my whole The KKK came in, burned down bathroom, swaster because niggers everywhere hung and mannequin with the news. So my football jersey on and died nigger. And that

that was at seventeen years old. I'm forty two today and still feel like it was yesterday. And it was in the same back earl SOO, like you said, you look at people a little different when those things start happening, because, like they said, they could be smiling and shaking your hand, but at the same time could have been behind what

was going on because you never know. So, like you said, it's something that obviously you learned from it hardened you, but it it completely gave me a different outlook on life. At that age, I was bi racial, Italian and black, but I looked at myself as a black man from that day fourth because that's how I was treated. And the fact that you just said that, uh, we still feel that, And I think part of the reason we still feel that is because we still see it's still

going on. It still goes on, so we can't forget it. Tourette's. You were finally diagnosed at seventeen with it, and you in the documentary you you struggle, You didn't know what it was, what it was called. You know, the doctor gave you a reason of you know, what to say. But was it a relief when you kind of were diagnosed with it and and and and started kind of

finding ways to to to to manage it. My goodness, man, When I finally found out again, when he first told me, I was still like I didn't like am I gonna die from this is like cancer or some of of it. But it took a It took an enormous weight off my shoulders. Uh, because all of that time I was just I was never truly comfortable with the explanation. They're just habits. They come in, they go like you know, and uh, and the horse peels that I had to

take constantly, man, that huge. I mean they were massive. I can remember they were orange with jelly looking substance ince side of him, and I would gag constantly, man, And so I stopped taking them, just gave them pression. I was taking them. But uh, people looking at you strange, not being able to have a an adequate explanation for it. And then when finally, uh, my high school coaches wife convinced my mother. And prior to that my mother take

me to the hospital. He put e kgs in my head, tell him and he need to stay up eight hours, all type of stuff, man, and none of that worked. And uh, but when they finally took me, he he noticed right off the bat and he told me, man, he just literally said it was hereditary. And I said, okay, well it's not just I had somebody that gave me

to me. You know, it wasn't just me. So that took a weight off my shoulders, man, and I caused me to move a little differently, be a little bit more comfortable with it because I had an explanation behind it, I mean me personally, not knowing too much about it now to this day, is there ways you know what tools you have to handle it? Or is it the constant medication? How do you handle the threats to this day? Great question? Uh, I don't. I stopped taking medication, man.

Uh when I was at l s U. I just it was a personal decision because I was on how doll in high school and I came to find out later that how doll was a uh drug that they give the psychopaths like to just just coming and put them to sleep. I said, wow, I kind of I had to pat myself on the back. I said, damn, man, I because in high school I was one five and uh my senior year, we played like forty one games a year, and so at the end of that year,

I was like one set five. There's no way I should have gained that weight, but it had me gaining when I wasn't moving. I would always be sleepy and and eating. Like if I just sat here and didn't say nothing, I just beat those in class. Those a coach started talking a little bit too long, those all and sold it caused me to gain all that way I get to l s U. I'm one because of the how dog. So I'm literally a little big bodyguard.

I'm literally twenty something, almost thirty pounds overweight. I said, Man, I I broke a record out of shade. I can only imagine what I could have did if I was in shape. Yeah, so I just decided I don't want They put me on pros acting for lixing. It didn't have the side effects. It caused me to lose. But then I just said, you know what, I'm just gonna pray. I'm gonna train, I'm gonna try to eat right, get

my rest, and I'm gonna deal with it that way. Yeah, because I started earlier, even before I knew, I started to develop a distrust for the pharmaceutical industry and healthcare industry. I'm like, it's almost everything. Y'all give me the side effects, more side effects and benefits. So I'm gonna try my luck on the natural way. You've always been a laid back type of guy, feeling like that's just since a youngster. Do you think that the way that you had of

stuff and always been back help you deal with treats? Yeah, I'm I'm I'm pretty, I'm pretty laid back, but I can get can be animated. You know that too. Yeah, I think we all have it, and some more than others. But it definitely helps man treat is like, h I don't I'm not a woman, but I've heard women talk about harmone hormonal issues, right, and so if I'm excited, if I'm nervous, if I'm angry, that can exacerbate the ship. And I mean I'm talking about they can be violent, Yeah,

you know, and I used to. I mean I used to pop my I don't want to do it not. I used to pop my neck so hard and throw my arms out to where it felt like I was about to dislocate my my elbow. I felt like I was about to like literally pop intoe my neck. I would feel my brain like hit, feeling like it hitting my skull out. I'm I'm tensing up as I'm playing and working out. You know, imagine being on staff massing work and that's taking more out of you. You gotta

push harder. And so this is why mostly every day that I trained, like literally, and I'm not exaggerating, I almost died every day because I wanted to quit. Chris Jackson wanted to stop it out of the head to rest syndrome, saying, no, man, you gotta play me now, and it's gotta be just like this, and no matter how tired you are, uh, you gotta fight through it. You can't take no rest. If there's a glitchen to move before you shoot it, it don't count. If all

of the shots have to go net. Everything had to feel perfect those last ten shots, so that if I trained an hour and a half, I have ten shots to make out and I gotta get them up. Everything had to feel perfect coming off my hand, to dribble, the planting of my feet, and if one thing was off, even if I made this shot, I couldn't go back and say if I'm at nine in a row and I hit ten and it skims around, I can't retake the shot and say ten. I have to start a

zero that may take me another I want hand. Then I'm leaving the court. I'm dribbling as I'm leaving the court. If the ball don't feel right. A few times, I back up, I'm underneath the goal. Again, I shoot it don't feel right. I gotta do that same ten, same way two times. That's when I started. I got to improvise because if I don't, I'm gonna kill myself. I had to take the ball and I had to throw it towards my house after I finished that way. When I finally got the ball and I was driven, I

messed up. I back up, I'm not underneath the goal. I can make it home. And I had to come back and do that again before the day was over. So that was I don't know if I would have known that statistically we had a better chance of becoming doctors and lawyers. I don't know if I went through that, because literally I was every day. Then I had to wake up and I was threatening, you know, death, And

I'm not exaggerated. You spoke in the doctor how some of those habits actually helped you become a better basketball player, And it was really to what you just spoke with right there, just the constant repetition and and work that you had. It wasn't a choice that you didn't have a choice. You had to do it. It did um the precision, Uh it wasn't enough just to make the

shot how you made it, you know. And and get into a spot, you know what envisioning two three invisible people and they're literally physical there this close to the basketball every time you're dribble and shoes. So you're trying to escape m hm. You know, create space with your imagination. And so in your mind you're like, if I could create space with my imagination, a human being don't have a don't got it right? So you this is every day and uh the good thing is that also if

you're fortunate, it doesn't always work out this way. Things you're passionate about their carryovers to everything, you know. Bruce Lee has this great story about the protege let's go run three miles. He didn't want to run. As they were running, he finally convinced him to do was huffing and puffing. He said, well, look let's go to He said, man, I'm about to die. He said, we're died in Bruce

kept running. Dude was mad, so in his anger he started running more and when he finished, you know, because he was running because he was angry. That, Bruce, they died, He go ahead and die. He said, what were you so hard on him? Bruce? He said, because once you give up on yourself, there's carryovers. You give up on your family, and you give up on your business. So the same with the training, and as I was training and going through that. Man, when there's something you're attached to,

like issues, they're carryovers. So when people said, well why did you do what you did and say what you said? Man, if I amost sending myself through this abuse, because it is, and I'm gonna go through all of this, and I gotta do the same thing on other issues as well. So at least to one thing you wanted, at least to another. Basketball is the path you decided to take. Was there anyone you looked up to? Uh? Growing up? What was it? This all about your game? No? I

mean I looked up to so many people from my guy. Ironically, my guy was Dr J. He's you know, Dr Jay. You would have thought it would be Isaiah Turmus or something like that, but you were just so exciting. But I'm always attracted to guys too, man. Dr J was so humble the way he carried him. Yeah, and and those type of guys man just along with their ability, just they just drew me in. And so he was the guy that I watched. But we didn't have cable.

So I'm in Mississippi, so we catch all the Hawks games they come on, so I would watch and I watched NBA. I didn't really I watched college, but I watched ninety per cent NBA because if this is where I want to be, this is l s U. You decided to go to l s U right out the gates dominant. I have a record today that still stands. As a freshman, you average thirty point two points a game. Talk to us about that you touched on at that time. You were on medications, so you were plus twenty five,

but you were still out here setting records. Talk to us about your particularly your freshman year at l s U. You know, I came in man. When I first came in, they had a guy named Fest Irving, and I was

looking to play alongside Fest. Something happened where they said, look, his father came in and told Dale that if he's coming, if Fest ain't gonna start with leaving, he said, well you might as well pack you back and they'll don't like to be strong on the right right, and so that left me just kind of like with with no competition. And uh, I still think back, man, I pinched myself.

I said, well, because it happened so fast. You know, you dream and we all have aspirations teams, but when it starts to like hole, you know, and it's a little scary, Um especially. I'll get to that later. But I ended up man um having my first game was like thirteen. I was just trying to feel things out, but I felt I could have did a whole lot more. Second game, I had twenty one. That's when Dale stopped me going into the locker room. He said, look, Chris, he said we need at the time, he said, we

need you to score more. I said, coach, I'll try. And that third game I had forty eight. The fourth game, I think thirty whatever. And in the fifth game of Florida, that's when it was you know, nationally televised. They were the number one team in the SEC and I had fifty three and uh filed out three of their guards and then that's when it just it exploded for me. Um and I still, man, I'm like, wow, I looked back, but The reason why it was so hard for me, Brothers,

is this. I could never embrace success the whole time I was there. I could never get comfortable with it because I was always thinking that something's gonna happen. This is too good to be true. And I started reflecting the old I got and I said, this is why. And this is where I'm so adamant. We're trying to educate myself and just to share as much information as possible because sim and I was like, what caused me

to think this way? You know? They say our society, our environment, and and and the people around have a way of molting and shaping us. And I said, we used to watch Sampon and Son and Good Time on a continuous basis, and they were always either in the junkyard or the ghetto, and they were always trying to get out, and every time something was about to happen that would get them out to ghet On, something would happen to kick him right back. In every show. I said, man,

this seems like a social conditioning. And so I started to look at all the stuff I was listening to and learning and studying. So this is where this came from, you know, This is why I could never truly embrace it. Always felt something's gonna happen to me. Right, this is too good to be true. You know, it should have been all that should have been the best time in my life. I'm the closest I've ever been to make it, you know. And so, yeah, what age not to cut

you off? At what age did you start reflecting back on that? Because it sounds like you never were able to really enjoy the success you were having while you were having it. I started reflecting when I got to the league. Yep, I became a must of them. I started me brothers. They started giving me books, you know, think authors I've never heard of information I've never read before. And uh, it started to make me think. Yeah, Shaquille O'Neil comes to l s U, what's your first early

memories of shot? Gigantic guy like in shape, confident, playful. Um uh and I remember him saying in the dorm one day. But this is before contracts even exploded the way they did. He's I'm gonna be the first guy to make eighty million. He made way more than but he was man. He was he was he was relentless. You could see the passion in his game. Um, he was a people's person, you know the way he is now very playful, um, comical. Um. But I knew that we you know, we had something special, but we just

couldn't put it together. Obviously you were highly touted, decorated Shock. With Shock, I think Stanley Roberts gets lost in the mix. How good with Stanley Roberts? Not for me because I grew up a little a couple of miles from there. No, they had the original two big fellas in him. Like Stanley did not get overshadowed. If you watched L. S U and if he was from that area, he was just as big as Shock. Trust me, he was just

as big as Shot from California what I'm saying. But in the grand scheme of things, nationwide talked to us about Stanley Robert and when his game was like, Uh, Stanley by far was way more talented and skillful than Shack. Stanley. Stanley could shoot it, he could shoot his free throw, and he can take you down. And now he didn't have the Shock bringing it up whole corner. But outside of that, and even Shock admitted Shack said, look, Stanley dominated him. Uh. The only thing with Stanley Man, and

he'll tell you to this day. We're at we're at a convention that l s U some years ago because I hardly ever get back. And Stanley was eating in the ball. You know, we're basketball players. Use the ball, rolled By, we're gonna grab it and touch it. Sam was eating talking ball, rolled By looked at it. He just kept on that. I mean like, and I looked seriously. He don't want nothing to do with the game back.

But that's just him. Even when he was playing, man, he just I had to and I'm not I could beat this dude, but I had to sometimes piss him all coach like, man, get him the skins and he ain't number all. You give me the ball, give me the ball, but he'll go off, but he'll be missing to or three days. He just show you I can do this, and then he won't. So he didn't have that discipline and at work, and I remember telling him one timmer Man, I said, stay, I had tears in

my eyes. Man, we'd talked him because I knew him. I said, Stanley Man, I said, man, you just work hard, be consistent. I said, man, you can write your ticket, you can name your Price. He looks at me, he said, Man. At the time, my name is Chris Man. I appreciate you. Man, he said, Man, but he's ain't Goo listen, He's ain't. And I knew he was telling the truth. I seen even man make my eyes water when I think about it.

I said, Man, it's dude, that so much Man so uh And the documentary Shock spoke to a particular performance where you had forty points against Mississippi State on the road, Confederate flags in the stands, yelling, going crazy. He said that was the single greatest performance he's ever seen playing with Kobe, playing in the league all these years. He said, what you did in that game, he'll always remember is

the greatest single performance. Talked to us about that game and just the environment when you're coming back home and it seems like your home is against you. There ain't a scene. Yeah, exfinitely they would definitely get As soon as I walked out and they saw my feet coming out of the tunnel, started, um, that was a great game. I wouldn't I would have thought that would be the game that he say. However, I do remember that game, and I remember Dale got extremely upset because he didn't

like going to Mississippi. He didn't like. If it was his preference, he wouldn't have he would have flew in, played and left with the boat. Wouldn't have spent money in the hotel. He spent money in the motael. We say the motel. He wanted to spend the least amount. But that was a peiod in the game with Dale was like, you know what, and I felt kind of awkward. He's okay, y'all don't want to play. Come down and you did every time. And I'm like, yeah, I came

down and I was playing. But if somebody's over, I gotta give it to him. But I think, uh, I don't know if we won that game, that particular game, but it was a stretch when I just I just took control and went off. And I'm definitely, uh thinking that's what he's referring to. So it's good that he at least remembers it. Yeah, can you speak to the importance to Dale Brown, because even in the documentary, he was just still so high on you and has so much love for who you were the man, not just

a basketball player. But speak to his importance, uh, in your journey man, Dale they came to recruit me in Mississippi. And one of the reasons, the main reasons I went to actually is because I know better now. You know, I do believe that athletes should get paid right, But I was a little scary. I didn't want anything to mess up my and they just came off of I take suspension something uh hot Williams out of uh, I forget his name out of California. But and they never

when he came to. Everybody else is offering you stuff like you're gonna come and you're gonna start right away, blah blah blah. And in my young mind, I'm sad to myself. We don't even know what tomorrow is gonna bring. How can you offer me something somebody else may come in and out play me, and I just always feel funny about that. But deal came in. He said, listen, we got fair serving. You know, we believe that you

could play pop about believing your talent. If you show us that this is who you are, you're gonna play. And you know, I'm kind of like old school, you know what I mean, Like okay, And they were just straight up with me, and I just shook. I just shook that head and I said, listen, I'm coming to LS you. But I kept a quiet for a while because I was told in Mississippi, you want to keep Mississippi schools because I was out. I was out of high school. Yet so they say keep one of them.

Are so on the list because you don't want them to start giving you problems, you know. So that's why I kept the Mississippi school on the list. But I already knew that I wanted to go as you. And so the other thing that clinched it was Coach cars We talked like thousands of hours. About a thousand hours ninety Summer said him had nothing to do with basketball, and so to me that meant a lot, like these people you know, potentially are gonna, you know, they're gonna

they're gonna care for me more than the game. And uh he held true to his promise, I mean to to his word. And I got there, he saw it and he just said, hey, man, I want you to go for broke and uh and he trusted me to He knew that, okay, I wasn't just going to be a relegate with you know, and uh so and he also, man, he gave me. He was the one that influenced me, that led me to more so to a slam, because

he gave me the autobiography, because he read. He he read all the time, and he had so many connections, whether you know different people, man, whether it's Dick, Gregory Ferric, I mean, you name it. And he would always hand us material to read and tell us what we thought. You know, because I came out, I almost didn't make it, man, I failed the A C T the first time and

then the second time. And if it wasn't for a doctor that instilled into this woman to have the classes privately, I probably would have been a prop for the eight like Stanley. And but I was able to pass it and I came in. But the whole time at LSU, Man, they put me in a remedial reading class. I could read, I could spell, you know, but my comprehension skills wasn't great,

my critical thinking skills. So they would ask me questions prior to my being admitted in the classes, like what this had me to read something and said what does this mean? Oh no, what does this word mean? I don't know. I just spell words. I didin't even know what they meant, what does this word meaning? I don't

know what are you getting from the story. I was just reading, man, I was sounding good, and I felt so humiliated though, and so Dale Brown began to give me a little material and then I would read it. What do you think about this? What do you think about that? And even when I would give interviews, there were times he would stop, hey, man, tell him what you think, right, because he saw me pushy fro around with and he would challenge. Right. Then he put me

in the summer job. My summer job was with this guy named Gus Wiles, who was an author who had to play his plays presented. One of his plays presented on Broadway. So Gus would come in and every morning I will sit my whole thing. I would come and five to ten minutes every morning, I would sit with him and we just talked and in our conversations informally, he just injects certain ideas in terms of speech and everything. And then I sit in my office and I'd read

and they take me to lunch. My whole day was reading and having conversations. And then the next year when I came and it was time to do interviews, I was more way or more season than I was the year before. And then that started the process me of wanting to know more and read more and to become more vocal and confident. So yeah, I'm indebted to him for that third pick. Derrick Coleman and Gary Payton two legends. Um, what's your best memories of that draft? Going third? Going? Third?

Of course is over, you know in terms of you know, I'm here now. Um, you know you start thinking about man taking care of your mama right right that that look, that's that's that's the most important memory. I had, the most powerful memory. But then immediately it sings in like, man, this is another level. Uh, there are hundreds of thousands trying to be on this level, and you gotta be able to perform and compete and to sustain it, you know, because I think at that time it was what three

years you get your pensions? That was like because not everybody stayed three years. And until you're go into a new city, you're never really paying bills on your own and what it what it means to buy a house and to get all this stuff together, So that stuff is on your mind too. And then I'm going to Denver. I've never been in snow like that, and then it's gloomy. Then I'm out of shape, you know, And so there's

a lot man, But that's after the fact. But those are the things before they are the shape that I was thinking about them, like wow, it's it settles in you know that this is serious business. And let me ask you this question and of mental health. So I always tell people this and just I want your opinion on it. The things that I've seen growing up and struggling and hard, as hard as it was to make

it out, that would cause mental health. I can't see me having mental health the day with the blessings that God has given me to change my life and my family's life. But we're not going through those same struggles, is it. Can you say that someone once they reach success and and and millions of dollars, that they can still deal with mental health after seeing the things that

we come from. Yeah, that's that's tough. I think mental illness you have you have you have billion naires and you have million naires committing suicide, and it's all about when it's all said and done, it's all about perception. You know. You have people that are poor that are more at peace than people are wealthy, and you have people that are poor that are not at peace, and you have wealthy people that are at peace. So I think it eventually boils down to a state of mind.

You know. Yeah, we we had it tough, but still life is tough, you know what I mean. You look at the conditions nowadays. Man, You look over what forty million and more people don't have can afford healthcare, and you gotta make tough choices. Pay for my mortgage or pay for my health. You know, these are choices that we shouldn't with the wealth of this nation. And there's just so many other things, the misinformation, the miseducation that

we go through, things that we look. Look, I didn't know, man, when I was in high school. I said, Man, if I had known this, I could have probably had a different view of myself. You know, growing up that about two and a half hours in Natchez, there was this There's a book called The Prince of Slaves talking about ab do our mind. His father was the king of Timbuck two and in Timbuck to prior to West the

West and up is having having universities. They had universities, they had public roles, they had public lights, books was the number one commodity. They were entreest in knowledge to that degree. They were so well advanced. But we look at images right of Africa being what barbaric and all of these things, and all these images we see for ourselves. But I'm looking, I'm looking at this said, I'm like, wow, they and all of that man and this dude was

he was enslave. And this enslaver didn't know his father. I mean, the enslaver knew the key, but didn't know he had his son enslaved for all those kids. So I'm reading this story, I'm like, man, if I had known that, known that we we had this type of potential, who's to say I would have been a basketball player, you know? So so to to say that in coming we it's about perception, you know, And and we grow up. A lot of us we made it, but a lot

of us we didn't. And like you know, this this misnos this this misnomer that you know a lot of people they used the ghetto as a as a as a card for toughness from the kiddle, not everybody from the man you got you got chumps in the ghetto too. And cowards in the ghetto, just like not everybody from the suburbs. It's soft. That ain't true. So to ask you a question, it just it deals with perception. And I was taught to that God gives everybody a strengthen

everybody a weakness. It is up to unify a lout what that strength is to overcome that weakness. And so we all are experiencing hardships. But when I when I talk to children, when I talked to adults. You know, even though cord I adn't teaches us, whatever a law says that he's gonna try you, he always reinforces it with something good. When somebody says, somebody pointing the finger three point back back at you. So whenever you get hit with a hardship, always there's so many things will

be grateful for. But whatever you focus on growths. So if you keep focusing on the negative, it's gonna continue to be negative, and it's gonna show. And they say, you're you're thinking influences your behavior. Your behavior forms your character, and your character determines your faith. So if you constantly thinking negative, now I can't do this and it well, you're gonna you're gonna end up in a bad position,

So it goes either way. Yeah, you spoke to mental health. Um, can you talk to the depression and how that impacted your first couple of years? Uh in the league and differ man. Uh, there was a period and man, I got so depressed. Man I was. I was literally trying to count my coins. Man, can I make this stretch and go for it? Because I just didn't want to play no more. I was out of shape, you know, because I got bad information. I just lived well, scored

freshman thirty point two points a game. Then I came back the next year sixty nine, s nine. I was way better shape. Now I got two big dudes. Some will argue that averaging twenty eight with a Stanley and Shaquille was more impressive than the thirty two without him. Right, But then I'm listening to people saying when you gotta come back, you gotta come and leave. Boy, I never had a trainer like you know, like kids do children do today, And so I just started eating and training.

But I came back like I eventually end up getting the one Nino. Man. I was miserable then with that style that Paul West had had constantly running. Man. I was like, man, this is crazy. And then he didn't want to play me too right, and I don't necessarily blame it, and uh so I went through a period, man, I in the Denver the altitude. Yeah, man, I don't know. This ain't what I thought it was gonna be. And I was miserable. A lot of people don't know what

I was miserable. Man. I was trying to find comfort through food, through relationships, you know, and all of that through women, you know, just to justice, you know, satisfy my conscience. And then it took one day. I was walking into the store and I saw a magazine. You picked it up and he said, he's a bust and it just clicked and I said, man, I don't want that to be my legacy. And the dude was with me at the time. I said, man, it's over. I'm changing.

And that's when I started going to the gym. I'm doing staff Master for an hour, you know, I'm calling people in, let's go, you know, and we're training. And I lost like forty and I came back and then that next year I ended up getting most improved. But yeah, depression is real, man, Man, I never got to the point where I contemplated suicide, but I definitely got to the point where I said, God, if you take my life right now, I'm not even mad. You know, I'm

not even mad. Yeah. Into your rookie year, it was probably one of the best decisions you never made. I know for me, when I found Islam was the best decision for me. At the end of your rookie year, explained that process and how you immediately benefited from taking your shodo. The process, man was simple, Uh, simple and not um. I met a dude on Cofax in Denver bookstore named Selam Bookstore, and I would go in his book every day, like when we didn't have a game,

I would go sit with him. I would buy his books and we would sit drink ti or whatever and have conversations and uh and along with reading the autobiographer of Malcolm that that pushed me in that direction. And I was in contact with this papist and Catholicism. They called it a priest or pastor, I can't remember priest. And he had a protegee named Mark James, and we became close. At our table one day we're having a conversation. It Slam came up. Yeah, we both recognized we were interested.

He told me met a brother where we can get the clan. I went and got it. Man rushed back home. I was even though I read Malcolm and I was reading other books. I never picked up the Cordage right, which is crazy. And we came back. Man, I opened it up. I'm at my table and no more than three pages. I can't remember, and I can't remember what

I read, but I remember to this day. I made me feel because I had a lot of questions growing up, you know, and I would constantly get you just gotta believe you can't question God, and that was unsatisfactory to me. And when I read those pages, man, it was just something in my soul. It just eight since it's like, there's no question that this is it. And I looked at him. I said, I don't know about you. My search is over. I'm gonna be a Muslim. So I

started going to the master year. I started talking to people and uh getting material. And then that summer after that year, they had a rookie review and Utah, when you NBA players go play. I came back I think in August, and I embraced the Slam and people ask me, They said, what is it about this Slam that attracts you? I said, from the first day to now, at fifty three, every time I opened it up and I engage it and I just read it for the sacred reading, I

engage it. I said, it's never ceased to satisfy my curiosity and answer my questions. And so as long as it's doing that, why wouldn't I You know, So for me, that's that's that's been why, and that's why you know I'm I. I'm constantly trying to be better and do what I do, whether physically, whether morally, most really social and politically. You know, I've understood a long time ago you don't have None of us would know everything. If we're always waiting to know everything before we move, we'll

do nothing. My thing is whatever you feel, you know, you act upon it, and God to show you the rest. You know, So that's how I go. I'm not. I don't have the pride and arrogance like I'm gonna throw it out there. That's when I was young. I didn't do that. I didn't raise my hand in class. I didn't want you to ask me no questions because I was always like embarrassed what I may say or not say, so I just rather sit back because I wasn't great

in school. But I've learned over the years that you know, if I got something in my head, I'm gonna throw it out to the public. I'm gonna see what's somebody's gonna throw something back. If I don't know, you know what that sounds. Let me check on that. That sounds logical, but I don't know if that's how I learned. That's why I'm always going to speak in engagements, and I'm always telling people what I read and telling me what they read. I'm gauging people because you never everybody has

different experiences and different set of knowledge. I've asked you questions before and you gave me the answer. He was like, I can say this, but let me go read up on it. Let me let me you know what I'm saying. You told me that a couple of times. You want to go read up on it before you ask the question for me. Yeah, I'll answer based upon my understanding, but let me look at it further. But that's just been my policy what I do, and I'm gonna throw

it out. I don't care. I'm gonna through it. Look, this is how I feel based upon this, this and this, and I'm gonna holding And if you can't satisfy, I don't care what you're you're labeled it. I don't care if you're a scholar. I don't care if you need man. When it's all said and done, this ain't about arrogance. If you can make it make sense to me, I'll surrender.

I'll submit, but just because of your label and you're saying but this, but if it don't make sense, it just don't make I'm not gonna do it just because of you. I don't. I don't operate like that when I was younger, but now, no, you gotta it can make sense. And sometimes people try to intimidate you, call you names, Are you you crazy? Well that's okay, I know my intentions. But if you make it make sense,

I'll submit. The third season, things start to click. You have his nineteen for assist from the free throw line. Um speak to kind of things starting to come together and then the insults ability to help you break out. Dan was good for US Man ex player. He used to score, so he had a score mentality. Uh he brought me into the locker room and he said, look, man, the slatest clean did your it's your job to have and uh I was. I was still man, hesitant, apprehensive,

you know, but I wanted to trust. He ended up keeping his word. And uh that was a season man, that just went extremely well for me, an say extremely well, it went well better than than the previous ones. Um. Yeah, and that's when I ended up getting the most improved that year. Um and he he ended up You know, I think it's it's it's great when coaches are able to define roles, you know, you know, you you got people that can score and rebound defined roles. Not everybody's

gonna be at school, you know. And he was able to define those roles like, these are the people we want with the ball more so than anybody, right, it goes through them. Needs to be established. And that came off of me losing that forty at forty pound. And uh, I was just a normal I was. I was. I was my high school weight. I was one five when I became my senior year with and they would trying to you. I said, I listened to somebody that told me that I need the game now you. So I'm

doing me now and that's what happened. Yeah, I mean, at this point your name is Mark Mood, I'm doing role Um. Coincidentally, you know, you're you're you're really starting to find yourself off the court, playing better on the court. But there's pushback from that from fans and and media. Can you speak to when you've kind of entrenched yourself and made the name change and have that crossover, because there's been historical athletes who have done the same, Can

you speak to what that transition was like for you? Yeah, you're right, so many athletes before I have done that. The most notable, obviously is Muhammad ali Um. People sometimes are scared of what they don't know, but some people are very aware of the significance of the name change. To some people, they understand it to be a highly social and political move that you made, because look, most of our names residues of slavery, no matter how how how we want to avoid that for sure, for sure.

And so when you decide to take the initiative to choose your own name, and it's not one of those names for people that understand history, and they can get offended by it, like, oh, we lost this m He has a mind of his own, He thinks for himself, you know. So I think some of that came from that, I really do, uh, And a lot of it came from the fact that, look, we have in every walk of life, whether Christian, Jewish, Agnostic, atheists, whatever, you have

people that live a certain way. They claim to be one thing and they don't totally practice. None of us are perfect, right and some U can't tell right, uh, in terms of but when you begin to like a C. Green in the n b A. He showed his Christianity, but he was also kind of shown he wasn't a part of the country club because he was so strict with his beliefs. So when you begin, when I began, when I first accepted, first accept it was oh, hey,

no problem. But when they started to see me engaging people in conversation, praying in the locker room, help, I gotta pray before the buzz go off, and I'm not Now I'm trying to have real conversation now, not just about some superficial, superficial stuff. Now it becomes an issue, and it's like, there's this since that I don't want him to infect other people right, and I really felt that. I really felt that from the bottom of my heart, and it ended up coming out, uh, what's his name,

Mike Evans, assistant coach. I went to the point of asking someone, uh, behind my back, about this slam stuff that he's been saying. And he came to he said, mom, Mood, I talked to a religious He said, you don't have to be praying that nothing. So he figured out, an't know, I'm just a not most of them. It is not serious. But I read and I ended up explaining to him,

I listen, that's not correct. And I gave him some verses in the God and I said, Mike, from here on out, man, if you got a question, you don't have to sneak behind my back to go ask somebody and then see if I'm practicing my religion, right, I said, come ask me. I said, I don't have no problem telling you the truth. And I said, and I'm gonna tell you. When I tell you something, go look it up because I want That's how I'm gonna gain a person's trust. And where I show you something, you find

it for yourself and you're listening a little bit more. Yeah, So in the dock. Um, he became national attention to ninety six when you decided not to stand for the national anthem. But you have been doing it but four to six months, I think, he said in the dock before that, when that kind of hit the national media. And we're at a time where obviously today something hits, we can instantly give our side the story, defend whatever we're not in that time. How did your life change?

It was? It was pretty immediate. Uh, the fall back. I remember after doing that that interview after shoot around, I'm going home. We have a game against Shaquille, Little Neo land though, And and the reason I said that, man, I'm these are conversations we have all the time, right on the bus, on the plane, We're having them. And so I didn't really think anything of it. I'm just speaking what I believe to be true. But I knew

that it was serious. When even more so I knew it was serious at the shoot around, I knew it was even extra serious when Bernie called me to his office when I got to the Rhino and he said, well, he said, the NBA wants to suspend you if if you don't stand what do you say? Said Bernie I'm not standing. He said, well, some people want to call you to get him on the phone, and so we're now talking. I don't I wish I could remember who it was. And as we were talking, they said, uh.

They started talking to me, trying to convince me. I said, listen, man, I'm not gonna stand. I said, so you do what you gotta do, and I'll do it I have to do. And I'm so green man, literally, I've never been suspended in my life. I'm thinking it's gonna take an active legislation. I'm gonna be able to go play for a few weeks. And then they got to go through a board in the process and boom, and I'm like, can I go put my stuff on, man and go play? He said no.

I said, I'm suspended now. He said yeah. I said, what Can I get dressed and go into the arena and support the team? He says no. I said, huh. He said no, they don't want you on the premises. Have a go. So I walked out and went down, said what I had to say to the teammates and they looked and I drove home. Before I knew it, Man, it was global. It was all over the news. Then I got on the phone with some people that I knew,

a mentor of mine, and we talked. And that's the only reason, the only reason I came back the next day or whenever it was the next game, is because the example that he gave me about something that the Prophet did in light of a situation when there's a Jewish funeral possession passing back and they were a war at the time, and the Prophet stood up and his companions like, hey, we're fighting them, and they're fighting us. We're killing each other. He said, what are you standing?

He said, I'm not standing because they gave I'm not standing for their calls. I'm standing because God gave a life and he took her life. He said, So you can stand and not be for what America and its brutality and it's in its imperialistic ways and represent you could be standing for those who are pressed, who are the victims, and you'd be making prayer. And I was mad at him when he told me that in a way because the pride in me didn't. But he made so much sense, and I like the problem, if you

make sense, expect it. Yeah, I mean, I was furious you know what I said, because I knew what the media would say, You're gonna And so when I came back to this very old so you made a compromisy. Listen, man, as a Muslim, as a human being, we make a decision. But if we see something better, we do that. I said. But don't make no mistakes. I said, I still feel the same way that that my position hasn't changed. And I had to keep beating that to him and let

them know I'm not gonna backpedal. I'm not gonna become less outspoken as a result of this. We can go back to the same process if you want to and kick me kick me out again, no problem, you know. And and so that's just been my position, and and it's it's my position, brother, because I said to myself years ago, and I keep repeating this, and we all have to as athletes. How many times you wake up?

You got to motivate your remind yourself taught, And I said, you know what my mission is to live and die with a free conscience and a free soul, whether people like it or not. That real quick. A month before you suspended ninety six Bulls Historic team, you dropped thirty two on that team touched us about that game. In your mindset that game, Jordan's. They put you in the

the point guard. They were trying to run him at the point and he had just got back from getting lit up by Damon Starterman, and there was another guard that lit him up. And I think I was the third visit, and I'm saying to myself, I don't want to be the odd ball, you know, because we get offended. That's like, m hm, he's six, what eight? And my mood, you guarden route tonight on the post, give me the ball. You're gonna get offended. This is my position. This is

what I played. So I know you Jordan's, but I ain't saying this. I ain't looking like this. But in your mind you're like, are you serious? Oh no, I can't be the odd ball, So you go struck me. Even you already want to kill it, come out with a kill him. But even then it's like, no, you gotta even have more now, you know. And so that

was my mindset. I'm trying to kill him to get an off of me immediately, which ended up working, and they started changing up guys, and but I tell guys all the time, say, look, man, y'all know I said, look, it was nice to score those thirty two and beat him, but I would rather flip it around and have the championship, obviously battling against him, and then you know, hearing him speak, uh, how he spoke about you in your defense? How did

that make you feel? Oh? You mean during the the anthem No, the anthem part, yeah, right, No, I was with all the things that are circling Michael Jordan. To hear him say something positive about that, it was surprising. And again, I'm very appreciative anytime, man, irrespective if I care about the person or not, I'm quick to acknowledge I'm not the what's the word I'm looking for. I don't want to say naive, but I can't think of

the world right now. But I may not like Trump, I might not care for Trump, but if Trump says something that makes sense, it's it's the truth that I'm connected sense. But I don't mean I care for you too much. With Kanye and a lot of people, so I listened to the information and if it makes sense, I go with. If it don't, some people though, it's like, well, you can't ever tell I said so you're telling me this man can't tell you anything about business. He can't

tell you now you emotional. So even with Jordan's I'm like, man, I appreciate that that you said that. I mean, it means a lot to me. Yeah. So that's where in the aftermafter the national anthem, you were black ball from the league. Twenty years later, Colin Kaepernick is involved in the same situation. Well, can you tell me some similarities and the same things that he were going through that you were going through. Well, he was publicly condemned for

his statements. Um, you know, because of our labels, people don't necessarily when we label ourselves and we allow society and label us, they don't see the rest of us. Right, So when you're an actress and actor and athlete, anytime you say something outside of that framework, it's sacrilegious. It's it's viewed as you know, ridiculous, shut up and dribble. You don't have the capacity to speak in this lane. So this is the same thing that happened to him.

And also, you know the I don't know what his career was like before, but diminishing minutes that he began to receive as a result, because as soon as that's something like wow, this is similar because one thing that's thought playing you less, and then they have a media that's backing on. So we're not just that, but the media media that says, oh, he's lost it, he's lost,

he can't play anymore to justify. So yeah, I'm looking at all, I'm like, wow, this is so similar to death threats, right, all of that, and these are every every This is like the playbook, right, it's everything that I went through. I'm like, you know, so that's why I sent him immediately. I think I was new on social media at the time. I said, look, I'm four year thousand present and just wanted to send my my

voice out. Um. But it wasn't surprising. I mean history is replete with these examples of every time a person, in particular a black athletes about something, he's automatically uh, condemned and and the humanized. Yeah, because you want to you wanna you don't want other people to be attracted to that, right, It's like he might influence kind of like with norm Chomsky said, the threat of a good example, right, so you know he might infect the rest of them.

They might start thinking in terms of trying to make a difference social change, and it's you mentioned social media and that was the biggest difference from our time to his time. And I didn't it didn't. I knew it was different, but it didn't resonate to me until Dr Harry Edwards ones that influenced Don Carlos and Cream do what your bough to take those positions. He said to me, I'm not gonna say this because I think anytime anyone takes a position, no matter how big or great, you

applaud it. You try to support it as much as humanly possible. But people are gonna compare. And he was, like my mood, he said. When Muhammad Ali took his position, he said, they had a movement backing it, the black the Black Power movement that they can frame it under. When Kaepernick did what he did, they had the Black Lives Matter movement that they can frame it under. He said. We made it easier because you can attach it to something.

He said, when you and Craig did what you did, they didn't have no moods like you're in the ocean all along, he said, which made that tough. I said, wow, I didn't think about that like that is it as deep? That's why he is we is right. But I could only imagine because a lot of the letters man when we were moving, I had a trash bag, and the dude confused the trash bag from the trash and I

had so so many letters of people hate mail. But I had just as many, if not more, support from Jews, Christians, atheists, and they were dropping down. They were breaking down history right, and I understood that. You know, as a system always right, there's an agenda, and more people, I think than not on the street, because the post is on the street. When you go to barbershops and when you go mostly anywhere, the private conversations people are having. Many people know what's happening.

They know, they're disgusted, they're upset. You know, they're struggling, white and black, they're struggling, and but there's this cognitive dissidence. You know, America's great, but it's terrible. But now you gotta deal with the terrible. It's so bad that you know, they say, look, by two thousand fifty blacks, generational income will be z ro. It takes two hundred eight years just to reach economic parody with Europeans, generational wealth for

mostly every medium income family. If you were to reduce their income and tell everything and come back with liquid, they will have a thousand and some dollars to their name. But but white Europeans will have a hundred and some thousands. This is this is unjust. So there's so many things people you know, aware of and uh yeah, so when that was happening, all of these thoughts, you know, like wow, this is a part of it. As a blueprint, this is what they do because they don't want people to know.

They don't want people to find out. And I'm just determined, man, as long as I lived to the day I die, as much information as I can't whoever would listen, I'm gonna I'm gonna say something. But I also love to listen, you know, and all of those two things how you learn. We have so many people that are silent when the truth, you know, begs for advocacy, begs for supporters, you know, to just you know, speak to their conscious man. And I think this is one of the biggest challenges that

we but I understand where it's coming from. There's a lot of people that are fearful because time and again history have shown that you gotta play the game because if you don't, you know, you might lose your job, you might lose your life. Right, But we're gonna die anyway, you know, brother told me, said, man, none of us gonna make it out here live. So you got a choice. You know, do you want to leave on the better truth?

A better falsehood? And I know it's easier said than done, because we're so caught up in this materialism, Like, well, y'all don't want to leave. And no, man, look, George Washington Carver said, no one has the right to come into this world and go out of it without leaving behind distinct and legit them in reasons for having passed through it. So as all said and done, it's about leaving a legacy worth leaving. We all got a choice. And and for me, look, I'm not perfect, none of

us are. I have my flaws. I'm not the most eloquent and articulate and smartest guy in the world. But I know where my heart lies and and I know what my intentions are, and forever I'm gonna strive to be better and to benefit people as much as I can, you know, as much as I can. Another question how important it is it is today for us to control our own narratives. Super important to control our own narrative because most of our existence are narrative has been controlled.

What was that? What was that African proverb? Until lions big, until lions become this. I hate when I can't do this, but it's um um growing up when you hear stories about Africa, when you hear stories about even if it's

listening to the commentary on Kyrie right. Uh, it's important to do the research, to add to to be analytical, to investigate for yourself, and also to own your own story because like even even with documentaries, there are people if you don't own certain things, they can demand that, look, we don't want that show. You want this out and it could change the breath of the conversation tremendously, you know. So Uh that should be That's a part of having power,

being able to tell our stories. You know, you can talk about economic power, you can talk that that's important too, but that's a part of it. You got to own your story and and and and tell it the right way. Yeah.

And the documentary you find out who your father is. Uh, you find out when the where you found out that your father's family excuse me, and uh you you meet, you find out that Window Lattner was a two time All star in your family and the A B A. What was your my frame when you found out somebody and your family was in the league you come from whop? That was funny? Man? But but but I also had I thought that when I bought my mother her home that day, you know, and just flying cost always thinking

something bad's gonna happen. I was one of the things I would think would happen. And because I was constantly doing was man, uh, this is too good to be true. I might getting the plane crash and come to find out he died in the plane crash. I think he also played with Dr J and Dr J came to a gulfport, which is yeah, yeah, funeral. I said, wow, what I don't want to say coincidence, circle, full circle, and the whole family, large portion of the family has

connected to basketball. So it made sense, you know that this is what I gravitated to. I can see no hoops at the table now. And when we met the Landers, I looked at the table. I didn't see no just no third and ten. I didn't look, I didn't see him, man, but I adn't gonna lie to you man without history. And I told him this at the table, I said, listen, they said, how do you feel? And I can't remember the exact words. I said, Look, I have to be I'm gonna give it to you straight, with no chaser.

I said, you know, a part of me I'm excited, you know. And I said, but a part of me also with the history of this nation, relationship with blacks and whites. I said, Still there's unanswered questions, I said, I think about you know, this person that has sex with my mother, wasn't just for reputation? Did he molester the raper? You know? Why am I the only child in my family that don't know? Brother's father was white. He knows it. My younger brother of African American, But

for all of my life I don't know mine. And she's always been quiet. This is why some for some reason, I don't think. I think it's somebody with some importance because she never told me, but the other ones knew, So why don't I know? And so I'm thinking maybe this is a person, maybe he was a politician, maybe he had money. Keep your mouth shut? Never. But even if that was the case, it never benefited us. We we missed meals, we didn't have certain clothes, you know,

freezing in the window, you know. So I can't help but think. And I told him that, you know. And then they were trying to say who they thought it was, and this guy was this, and this and this. I hear you, maybe so, but still I don't know. And it still that doesn't make sense. If he's that such a guy, if he they knew he was, he loved women and he dated black women and it was public,

then why would I know? That doesn't make sense you talk about Uh, Well, on on that note, it's good, just just certain because I found that I was related to Bumby the Rapper, and we found out that we can go get this property that's in my family's name in Louisiana. They just made a rule in Louisiana that if you can come up with the with the paperwork and prove that your family owned this land and they got to give it back to you, ain't got to buy it. So that's what I just found out from Bumby.

So it's good that you're trying to find it out because you might have some land somewhere um your love for the game. Obviously, things ended the way you didn't want it to end with the NBA. But the Big Three came about when you first knew heard that you had an opportunity to play again professionally against other pros. The game that's been taken away from you, the platform has been taken away from you, had a chance to do that again almost at fifty. How you felt? How

did you feel? There was a combination of excitement and nervous. It's been so long you've been out the game, and then you know coming in you're gonna probably be one of, if not the oldest, you know out there because a lot of people don't take care of themselves and uh, and you know there's politics and everything too right and so if it wasn't for c J, uh, because that was the guy that brought it to me initially, but I wasn't interested because a lot of leads pop up

and then they failed. And then when c J came, I was at that time in my life. You know what, man, I want to go do it and it just so happens. Yeah, because Gary didn't really want to play me. I'm just be straight up because but but what's his name ended up going down White Chocolate, so he was forced to play me. Then when you get you end up getting drafted in the Big three by somebody was drafted within

the NBA draft Garrett page. And that's a story behind that. Now, if you want me to Jake, it's all the smoke now, because still even though I didn't miss a shot in the in the in they didn't miss a shot in the whole combine combine, it was in the best Jake, I saw guys going before friends friend. I already know it's politics. So I'm sitting there and c J told me they would get ready to pick somebody that's the equivalent of Richard. He said, man, you already got this

and this and this. He said, man, you need another guard. What happens if what's his name? Go down? He said, who I'm mood? He saw you right right, But I'm just look, Garrett didn't want He didn't want me, even though public perception because I started playing well, so as I'm playing as when White Chocolate went down, he was forced to play me. So now I'm getting into a rhythm I'm playing. This was game one of the season. This is Brooklyn. Yeah, yeah, so he started playing, but

he was still trying to play. Uh, I forget that the guys on the team, because one guy good dude, but just he wasn't he wasn't able to hand. Yeah, and so things started shifting from me, I'm i'm I'm getting my rhythm AND's going now you can't see me.

But there were moments he was still try. But but anyway, making long story, no, no, it's it's real because we we deal with that though even sometimes I love him, but even so times sometimes among our own like man, oh man, don't have to be this way, right, we make it harder than what it is, you know. But I ended up I think, going on a two two years, uh two year run and then slowly you know how

it is, you know, Making long it was beautiful. I enjoyed it the competitors, but for me even more so, man, it was the It was the being able to play at this age and still be functional with guys that are much younger, you know. And I would joke with guys. I say, hey, man, you know I don't like I ain't no trash sugger, but I'll play around. I said, if you scored twenty and I score, I score, uh fifteen or sixteen? You look bad if I score, I said, if our school. So either way, you got more if

I scored more than you. If I scored the same, I scored a little less. So I'm trying to put in their mind because they come out trying harder. Now you know, I ain't gonna let this old dude, you know.

But that was the It was fun for me, man, And just to meet people you don't like yourself, and we didn't know each other coming up, and just to see people that I was watching on TV after all of the younger generation and just their personalities and most everybody I meet man on level, whether the actors or athletes. And I tell people because sometimes you get around man. These athletes said no, no, no, no, no, said you're going everybody. We're human, everybody cann have that. Then you

got some bad ones, you got some arigans. I said, But for the most part, man, my experience, most of the people that I've met, they're really good people, now humble. A lot of them had to be to get there, I said, So don't don't label all because of that one or two experiences. Most people they'll speak to you and they'll be kind to you, you know, because they come out of some of the same social you know, I'm a consion they've gotten. Yeah, so it was it

was great, man. It was great for me, and I know for me in a lot of players in the Big Three, it was it's an honor to have you in the league. Not only because we can say we're part of the league that's giving you an opportunity to play the game again, but what you mean to us. You know, it's a lot of guys like me, Like even when I met you, I just became Muslim, but I looked up to you for so many reasons, and one thing is for being your own person and speaking

your mind. But I was told when I was going through the George for I think that you've got something similar to you. Everything that you've been through as a kid and you're upbringing built you for that moment when you had to take that stand. And I was told

the same thing. Everything that I was I learned that I've been through with the NBA and growing up to get here, it built me to go through the things with George Floyd and I just I just want to give your flowers into and tell you how much we appreciate you because a lot of us wouldn't even think about being in that space. I have the confidence to stand up. You know, a lot of people are not risking anything, but you was risking everything and stood up

to do something that didn't benefit you. And that's one thing I learned about being a Muslim. Try to wake up every day to show allow you deserve everything he's blessing with, blessing you with, but also making a point to do something that don't benefit you, right and and for you. You don't know how you benefit so many people and how you and what you mean to so many of us. Man. So I just I've told you this a couple of times, but publicly I want to

tell y'all love you. Man. I appreciate everything you stand for, what you mean, and what you do and and and and and the person you are because you gave a lot of us confidence to to be ourselves and to understand to have our own mind and think for ourselfs. So I love you, Burn, I appreciate you, and I appreciate that. I'm always humble when I hear that. And you've always been uh, that guy in the Big Three. Man, every time I see you smile, you're positive, encouraging, So

that goes a long way. You know, there's a saying I think Ironerstein may have said it. I don't know. I said, if you want to find yourself, lose yourself in the service of others, you're not really believing that yourself in the service of others, because you know, when you begin to to share, whether it's information, whether it's your wealth, whether it's your time, you really it does

benefit you. It benefits you in enormous ways, your peace, your health, and it all comes back, It all comes back. But you do it just you want to do it out of just genuineness, just for your love of humanity, even though people may not really understand it. You know what I mean, Because as a saying that in a slam that if you take one life unjustly, it just thought you've killed all of humanity. That's how valuable life is. And so you flip that if you benefit one life, yeah,

you know. So we're constantly trying to increase our blessings in every in every single way. Man, So I appreciate that. It means a lot to hear to hear you and to you here, to hear you and Craig Herds like I had to speak in engagement and he kind of said the same thing. I think that means more to me what I did for George, for to have people like you and George and you and Craig Heards comes to me and tell me, man, I'm proud of you

for what you've done. You know what I'm saying, because I didn't know I'll be in that position, but I've seen what you guys. You know we've been through. So to hear that from you and him, it mean a lot to me, and it wants it wants me to continue to do the right thing and do something for

other people. Yeah. When you know, when you put yourself in a line of fire, as a whole different different ball games, you know, and so there's a whole different level of respect for whoever because not everybody does it, and we do it in different you know, do it in different ways. There are different ways to help, but that one right there us so overt and in your face and there's a lot of risk involved. So yeah, we do more of it. Yeah, everybody voice matter consistently

before we get out of here. Uh you spoke to Dr Edwards saying that there was nothing really to attach what you were standing for at your time too, there wasn't too much support. You were really like almost on an island. Um looking back on that now and seeing you said you had a bag of people who appreciate

and we're riding with you. But then when you see guys like all the guys have spoken your documentary, Steph and Shack and everyone kind of Jaden Rose, thank you and praise you and show you love you sacrifice what we all dream of doing. We all dreamed of being a hooper, and you were at the most elite level and you sacrificed your career for that. Now looking back, when you're getting and not that you're even looking for, but you're actually getting the praise and respect and and love. Now,

is it better late than never? Is it bitter sweet? How does that make you feel now of looking back on the situation when you're kind of standing on your own but now there's so much support. Um, Times change, you know, people's people's thoughts about things change. The ones that were in the video were the ones that, uh, it's I've been reserved me correctly when I was going through that process. Were also the ones who said some positive things, chat said some jayleen um um. But you know,

you're always grateful. You know, we look, we all reach points in our life at different times, and so you know, I hear a lot with man, you were before your time, you're before your time, and I appreciate that. But I'm at the same time, I'm always rooting for people like I'm rooting for myself because there's so much I can learn and so much more I can do. I'm never comfortable with I reached the top of the mountain. No, that's when you start, That's when things start going wrong.

I'm always feeling that desk. I could do more, I can learn more, you know, I can benefit more people. And and so even in that case, you know, some people be like, oh, man, it's too late now you should have been No. I'm like, look, it's better late than never. You know, you're you're here because you know this is the time for you. And so now that you're here, it's up to you to do something. And

I'm always rooting for people. I look at people, I'm like, man, when you know something, you feel you know something, and you're talking to somebody and they disagree. You understand, but you I wish you could see the way I see it. But I'm not gonna condemn you for now. I'll say I just agree or disagree, but I'm gonna always be rooting for you. You can always be rooting for you. So, uh, it's I don't know the word to use yet. Uh it's not coming to me. But um, there's a timing

and a place for everything. And I'm very grateful for those voices and those people. And my only, my only thing would just be man too. Uh to continue. I know it's cliche, and it's so hard to continue when things are constantly coming your way. But like anything, if you want to be great at something, I tell everybody this myself, you gotta practice. If you want to be great in basketball, you gotta practice. If you want to

be great in patience, you gotta practice. If you want to be great and being a social activist, you gotta practice. But you also in practice it. You gotta surround yourself. They do studies all the time, and it's a that if if you out of shape, hang with somebody in shape. If you're not smart, hang with a smart person. Why because there's a there's a language, there's a lifestyle, there's a pattern, and the more you're around them, the stuff

is going to eventually rub all. You're getting your flowers. But I wish they could throw max contract act that you missed. Oh no, but but you know what I'm also it's funny you say that. You know I'm not dude though, like you hear a lot of people going to they win settlements and someone's asking this man, if

you want a settlement, like would you? I said, you know what, that'll be very enticing and do they all know a lot of players though I'm saying I'm not the only one that they did this, And I said for me, I wouldn't allow you to pay me if you're not willing to go back and pay before because I can't. I can't. I can't operate like that. I got paid. But no, because it almost sounds like hush money, you know what I mean. No, I'm not going out like I'd rather be broke and we all be on

the same level. Then you pay me, and I know that Craig and so many other people ain't benefited. No, you gotta you gotta take care of about all right, quick hitters. First thing to come to mind. Let us know, first thing you do in the morning, last thing you do before you go to sleep. I know that. Oh uh. I pray and I read and didn't pray. Yeah, five dinner guests there are alive. I want to hear these great conversation. I hate those questions though. I'm not gonna

be real with y'all because there's so many, so many. Yeah, just give us five. Prophet Muhammed of course, Adam first man and how Eve yeah, both of them, both of them. Yeah. Um, that's three. Um Malcolm, mm hmmm um. Last spot, Um, Jesus Saw Saw Yeah, I gotta know you gotta read you. Uh you plus four on the black top? You and four other people not in the league, but outside pickup game, not in the league, the league. They could be in

the league. I'm saying you're not. You're playing outside outdoors on a black top. Jordan's he's tough man. I'm gonna go with him because my boy, h king Yeah, wors that's three. Uh huh, come on, man, yeah, it's tough man. Jordan. Hold on, Jordan, I think you're on the black top, so I ain't no foul calling, Oh, ain't no foul call you on the black top. Jordan said, oh, Dennis Den and uh, I'm gonna go with somebody I ain't here in a long time. I'm gonna just pick him

because I want to pick him. And he was like a small shock, but played the two guard the microwave. Yes, we're on the black top. It's o man. You put him in the game. That's twin points points. Yeah, yeah, some sides, all right, last but not least. If you could see anyone on our show, who would it be? But before you answer that question, you have to help us get your answer on our show. Oh that's a tough one. I don't know all the people y'all. Head.

Oh yeah, yeah, nice, we overdo the day I took my shot that he called me as well, great guy man. He gave me a lot of good guys. We need. We need to Hall of Fame, really do so. He's so philanthropic, man, he gives so much. Man. We used to pray before games in Houston. We pray before games and then yeah, so come give us some of your He gave me some keys. He gave me some good keys. YEA fairy soul spoken brother and I'll fight in a heartbeat. I love it my mood. We appreciate your time. We

got some merch for you right here. Trust me, he liked merch. Now do you work out merch like I'm where can you get at all the smoke bat Store? You can have it as well. Make sure you guys check out stand the mock mood ab duro story only on Showtime. We got a chance to watch it last night. Man. Very insightful, very emotion emotional roller coaster. Make sure you guys check that out Man beautifully done. Um hopefully win awards. Well that's a wrap, man mood, I'd rove all the smoke.

You can catch us on Showtime, Basketball, YouTube and the Heart platform Black Effects. We'll see you all next time.