Jim Gray | Ep 61 | ALL THE SMOKE Full Episode | SHOWTIME Basketball

but I'm warming up, Yes, as you should. Man, I'm chilling out here. We just had the birthday with the baby a little while ago, so he's too now, even though he looks like he's fucking four. But we had a good time with that. Hung with the family. But the man, we got a special one today, a legend in the Space edition. Yes, absolutely welcome Jim Gray to the show. Jim, how you doing? Matt good to talk to you and Stephen. Thanks for having me on. Yes,

I mean over forty years in this business. Uh, tremendous accolades, more memorable conversations before we get started out when I was doing research on you, h Muhammad Ali had an amazing quote that kind of just like really kind of contextualized like what today was about to be about, and he saw it early. The first interview Jim ever did was with me. From then, the first to my last, and and many years later, we have a very special relationship. I'm the greatest, He's the latest. Jim is the me

of his profession. Just don't tell Howard Cosell like, when Muhammad Ali says that about you, how does that make you feel? Well? It it feels as good here and you read it as he did when he said it, as I've read it a thousand, two thousand times. Uh. Uh. He was a special man. He was obviously very special in my life. The first interview that I ever did, guys, and uh allowed me to be the last interview that

he ever did on television. So uh. To have been able to travel with him, to learn all that wisdom, to hear all of his stories, to be in his company on so many, so many occasions, to have seen him fight, uh, what he stood for outside of the ring, the principles that he had, the man that he was, the fun that he made it, He just made it so much fun. He loved people. He loved all people

all the time, and he was great with kids. So when I hear that, Matt and and when you say it, I still I still literally do get chills because coming from him, I mean I just can't get higher praise or what could make you feel better than that from a greater person. Absolutely, like it just kind of it kind of made me say like, oh wow, like that that was that was that was very special. How is current day treating you? How? How how different has it

been during this pandemic? Um from your normal day to day because you're so active across the board in several different sports. Well, just havn't traveled much. Uh, we stayed to ourselves. You know, you missed the people tremendously. You missed the people that you work with, your friends, your family. Unfortunately, my mom has got stomach cancer, so I want to be able to see her, so we've really isolated. Uh. I live in California, she lives in Colorado. Um, she's

doing good after a number of chemo treatments. So uh, it's just kind of altered everybody's life and and and changed so much for everybody across the planet and and here in our country. With the tremendous uh loss of life. Uh, those who are isolated, who can't see people, the unemployment situation and loss of jobs and economics fallout from it. So you know, I guess we've just been impacted, like

like everybody else. You know, certain areas we're doing good because we're home and we're safe, and certain areas, you know, we're trying to help other folks who are struggling and just trying to get through it and knowing that you know, it's no longer it's no longer a twenty four hour news cycle. It's a twenty four second shot clock. And you guys can understand that better than anybody. Wow. Well over, sending love and strength and prayer to your mom. Up.

She pulled through this. She's eight nine, and she's strong, she's tough, so uh, she's doing She's doing the best she can with the hand she felt. She tells me all the time that coronavirus and the isolation is much

more debilitating than the stomach cancer. So I guess that's good news, but it's also you know, I just just want to make sure that we can get her through this period and be able to spend some more time with her after this vaccination hopefully gets rolled out and people can can get back to whatever would be considered a semi normal life. Absolutely, you just released a book

that I can't wait to read. This is past November talking to goat Spotlight in conversations and time spend with some of the biggest athletes, from Kobe Bryant to Muhammad Ali, Tom Brady, Lebron James's Decision, Mike Tyson, the Dream Team,

Pete Rose, and the list goes on. When you sit back and kind of look and maybe you can't have a full perspective yet because I couldn't get a full perspective until I was done playing, But just kind of looking back at your path to today and you going as strong as ever, what do you think, like, what's the first thing that comes to your mind? How did all this happen? How could this have possibly happened? Because

you don't really reflect when you're doing it. I mean, you both played fourteen seasons in the NBA and traveled to a number of teams. Well, I was there chronicling a lot of that and just going from city to city doing interview to interview, and then when you start to look back and reflect on this. And I had Greg Bishop from Sports Illustrated, who did a great job organizing this and writing this book. He was terrific to work with and he and he did. He's a great

writer and and a great friend. But there's tens of thousands of interviews and events and so much has gone on that while you're in the mix, you're you're not really looking in the rear view mirror. And this caused

me to look in that rear view mirror. And I'm sure you know, Matt when you saw a lot of those highlights, or Stephen, when when you look back at your careers and you see all those baskets that you made, or the critical shots, or the big defensive plays, or those huge winds that that that that you didn't think about when they happened, maybe you did for the moment until the next game, and then you start taking a look at this in the collection, all of it, and

you say, wow, how did all this happen? And then you start thinking I really did all that, and so um, you know it's it's it's been a real blessing, and it's been fun to look back, particularly when you know I used to live at John Madden's house and became very close to John Madden. And he's a genius, brilliant man obviously with football and his coaching and then broadcasting and all the Emmy's and analysis and then the Madden Game. But Madden used to always say this to me, everything

in life is looking forward. When you're born, When are you gonna crawl, when you're gonna talk? When are you gonna walk? Where are you going to go to school, What are you gonna be when you're gonna have confirmation? When you're gonna graduate? Where are you going to college? So I can keep going on and on and on all the way through a lifetime. But you're always conditioned to look forward, very rarely, at least in my life if I have been thoughtful or conditioned to looking backwards.

So this gave me that opportunity and it was fun. It was hard, but it was fun. Speaking speaking of the book, men, you had a chance to previously speak about your book. You was telling me about it, and it's something that kind of involves me, and well, the Malice in the Palace. Yes, sir, I was there that night broadcasting that game on ESPN with Bill Walton and my brain and I was standing right there when you kind of jumped over me and went went in there

with Ron. Rememberable night night, probably much more memorable for you and and all the repercussions and everything that has gone on since. But you know, it was, it was.

It was interesting on on a number of levels, and uh, you know, to be able to reflect on it, and uh, you know, there's some interesting things I try and put in the book at the Malice at the Palace that you know, really hadn't been examined, and a couple of the things, really is I blame personally, you know, the Pistons, uh, not only their fans, but Ben Wallace much more so than uh, you know, the public did, and seemingly, you know,

everybody did. Obviously, you can't go into stands and start fighting with the very customers who are paying for your game. So and what David Stern did was exactly right. But the blame and the reason all this began really in my estimation, began with Ben Wallace and and got taken to another level with the fans. Right. Yeah, the game was over well over. I mean, you know, I believe Bill Walton even said on the air that wasn't even a hard foul. Leave it to leave it to Bill.

I love Bill, Run Run. So you've had a h obviously, as we spoke, a forty year career that stemmed over several sports. Basketball, baseball, boxing, football, golf, um, you name it. Do you have a favorite? Do you is there one you tend to or you have a love for all of them? I really do have have a love for all of them. And it's kind of hard when you're sitting at a super Bowl to say, to sit there and think, boy, wouldn't I much rather be at the

NBA Finals right now? Or if you're at the NBA Finals watching Jordan make a shot or Lebron or Kobe, You're really not sitting there thinking, boy, the opening ceremony of the Olympics would should be nice to be sitting at. So you're kind of just, you know, really fortunate and lucky to have been able to have the whole collection of them all. I will say this, though, there's nothing

like a great prize fight. When when Tagler and Hearns, or Tyson and holy Field, or Ali and Fraser, or Mayweather and Pacquiao have that ring walk, there is a there's an energy and in an intensity that is in the air in that arena that doesn't really exist. Maybe only one other things exists like that, and that's the lighting of the torch at an Olympic opening ceremony. You know who will light it? How will it happen? Will it be a bow and arrow which was brilliant in Barcelona?

Will it be the greatest moment I ever saw with Muhammad Ali? Uh you know, fighting Parkinson's and and and there was the greatest to who lit the torch? So perhaps that moment, But uh no, really, I don't think I have a favorite sport. I mean, I love basketball, I love the NFL, I love boxing, and golf has been a lot of fun so in the Olympics have been been just tremendous. So my favorite sport is the one I think I'm at at the time. I'm at that place there you go, like you said, lucky enough,

just you know, just to be there. But then I think, what is obviously allowed that you to have this success you have and and and the longevity is trust. And as players, it's hard to trust the media. It's very hard to trust the media because there's it's normally angles and I remember from the first time I met you, and then, like I said, prepping on this and as a part of your book, and what they said, and a lot of the common theme was like they trust you.

You you're a straight shooter, You're honest, there's no motive. Even if you have to ask the tough question, it's still you know there there there's there's no unwrapping to do. And that says a lot about you, because, like I said, for athletes, it's almost like a criminal talking to police, you know what I mean, Like it's just like it's it's hard sometimes because your words get twisted and it

becomes different than what you intended it to be. So we really are almost really protective when it comes to actually talking about you. So for these guys to be as comfortable as they are to talk to you and let their guard down, it really says a lot about you as a person as well. Well, thank you, and it's uh, I've been honored and really you know, gratified by what these folks have had to say for the book and and and about me. And you know, trust is a hard thing. How how is it that you

and and and Steven trust each other? Well? You do you build a relationship, there's a camaraderie, there's a coexistence, and you understand and you don't have to probably talk to him every day to understand that he can be trusted and vice versa. So true friendship and true relationship, guys, it's reciprocal. I can't just go put my arm around Kobe Bryant one day and and and say I'm going to be your friend and you can trust me, like you said, you know, there's there's a tremendous amount of

of distance and distrust that goes on. So it has to be reciprocal. So if somebody's always giving, that doesn't work because then there becomes a dependence, right and if you're always giving to somebody, that dependence is going to become debilitating. So the giver is going to be resentful of always giving and the taker is going to become a dependence. So that doesn't work. So it has to go back and forth. So I've been fortunate with a number of these guys, from Ali to Eric Dickerson to

Tom Brady currently to Kobe Bryant. You know, I was I was really hearten. The first line in the book was from Kobe and you know, it just says exactly how it is I've tried to behave in my life. If I had one word to describe he was talking about me, Jim Gray, it would be that he's honest. Well, my dad taught me that. He said, it doesn't cost you anything to tell the truth and to be honest.

I've tried to live like that and we fortunately it's worth I know, I know we're we're virgins compared to your career being in this space, but I know the conversations we've had in a year and a half, you know, with just the guys that we play with, the people we look up to, it means it means a lot to us. You know, you talk about the Kobe uh, the Kobe conversation, you talked about the d Way conversation. A lot of conversations we have with guys they mean

a lot to us. So I could just I'm just sitting here thinking about the people you had conversations with, the meaningful conversations, and the names you've named. I mean, I know that that that has to hold a big part of your life. When you're sitting at home just watch the TV or are having breakfast, just thinking about those conversations because you talked to some of the best

in the game, the best to ever come around. It does mean a lot and and it means a lot internally and it's and it's nothing externally because you know when you when when you've been doing this for a long time and it's a it's a different day and age, as you guys very well know. I mean, back when I started this in the seventies, nobody even had a beeper if you didn't answer your home telephone. That's why I got to go interview Muhammad Ali. I was the only one in the station. I was an eighteen year

old videotape editor, a sports intern. Okay, well, nobody answered their home telephone. There was no beeper, there was no cell phone. We were all walking around with computers in

our hand and documenting every moment. So that led to that, but it also led to really being able to have a relationship, being able to prove to somebody that you were trustworthy, You were able to connect with people because, for example, you know the players who are great today, they walk in and they're sitting at a podium, and they come in from behind the curtain and then they

exit from behind the curtain. Well that doesn't that doesn't allow for there to be a transactional type of circumstance ants where you're actually in front of somebody where you

can laugh, you can smile. They see your human They understand that you might have children, they understand that your car broke down, or you might have a different empathy toward them towards missing a basket or throwing an interception, because you can see it and feel it in their being, in their presence, in their eyes, as opposed to now you know it's at a distance and everything's at a distance, or somebody can just text it out or tweet it

out or put it on Facebook. So, uh, that distance grows. So when you have a relationship truly with somebody, I mean you guys have been in locker rooms your whole life, so you know what's public and you know what's private. Well, that used to be how we covered teams. We covered teams with what was your maine to what happened on the field of play. So if you did something on the field of play that was fair game because everybody saw it and everybody knew it. Then if you did

something off the field which spilled onto the field. If you did something that game into the public's eye that

affected your play, that was fair game. But all of the rest of this wasn't being documented by the micro second under a microscope, so you know, it didn't it didn't come into the purview of what some guy was doing at night, what some guy was doing with his free time, where he was eating, what car he purchased, how he might have treated somebody in a bad moment of his life, not his best moment, but a bad moment, but had nothing to do with the game. Now everything

is just fair game because everything's out there. So I was very fortunate and feel really really good about the time that I was able to come up in this

because it allowed for all of this to occur. I don't know that it could now m hm No, I agree, And I think that's part of the reason why, you know, Jack and I think have have been able to be successful in this space is because it's almost like we're with the old rules, you know, I mean, we're not looking for clickbait, negative clickbait, we're not looking to cause division anywhere, like we genuinely want to be able to humanize our guest slash friends and learn about them, you know,

I mean, I I just get just as interested in, you know, hearing what they have to say that I know our our our fans are going to be because even though I know them, we're giving them to a level where it's not in our normal you know, it's it's a normal no camera's tight feeling, but just to sit down conversation where they can feel like they can let their guard down. And I think that's what's most special for our viewers and our fans when we're allowed

to do that for him. But the one thing too, I mean, it almost seems like to me now because Jack and I are in the media space. Um, you know, I don't blanket everyone, but to me, it seems like it's about being first now and not necessarily right, you know what I mean? And and when and when you're wrong, when you're when they're when when when the media is blasting you for something, um, they sometimes false it's headlines. But then when when we find out that okay, well

you know they will someone reported that wrong. It's just a tiny blip at the bottom of the newspaper or just on the bottom line. What do you say to people who kind of see it like that, and people were involved. It feel like that. You know, you're exactly right, Matt and Uh. I do a chapter on that in Talking to Goats. It's called upon further upon further review, which is a famous statement because everybody hears that all weekend long when they watched the NFL games, you know,

when they go up to the instant replay. Well, unfortunately, now in reporting, instant replay gets further and further and further away, and the rush to be number one seems to be, you know, the omnipresent, be pervasive, and seems to be so important. And I tackle a few of the things in the book which were my personal experience and and the pressures that occur. And one of them was was Richard Jewel in the Olympic bombing? Uh? And I was on NBC all night with that for the

Atlanta Olympics. And here was a man whose life basically got destroyed. It became a movie last year by a Clint Eastwood rerected a film about Richard Jewel and he had passed away, but you know, the rush to judgment that he was the Olympic bomber, UH just permeated and took over. He ended up winning lawsuits against several news organizations, but his life was destroyed because of that because he wasn't the bomber. It was Eric Rudolph who who had

done that, but that destroyed his life. Then we had the rush to judgment with the flate gate and espn UH coming out with information that was all wrong. That set the tone which led to a forty million dollar investigation by Ted Wells about literally, uh, the amount of a fart being let out of a football somehow changing the outcome of a game that was you know, they could have played with pillows. The score was like forty

five or whatever it was ten. I mean it wasn't It was ridiculous to score so and they spent all this time and energy because they had the wrong numbers that was given out. Uh and then that took on a life of its own and we learned more what what did Bill Belichick say, He's learned more about p S I than any human beings should possibly know it And led to you know, everybody knowing about you know, gas laws. I mean, nobody even thought about this stuff.

It's a football game for crying out loud and nothing to do with the outcome, but that rush to judgment, you know, really negatively affected you know, Tom Brady and his mother. Unfortunately Galen got cancer and is it related, I don't know, but stressed causes all of this stuff and just to be put through that and then people think you're a cheater for life. Okay, and you know

so so those were two instances. But but exactly what you're saying, And I think, Matt, people come on your show and I watch your show and you guys, you guys are terrific at this. But you know why, it's because of your ears. Your ears will never hurt you. You guys are willing to listen, and you're willing to let your guests have their say and talk about their stories. And it's always about the other people's stories. It's about the people who are being interviewed. It's their stories. It's

not the other way around. And you know, unfortunately, there is a rush to judgment. We see it just across the landscape, and and things have changed and so now nobody knows exactly where to get their news from or or what sources correct. So it's it's it's it's problematic. So what was it like covering the NBA in the nineteen nineties. It was a great time. I mean, we had a lot of a lot of great people who were playing the game then. I mean the eighties were

a tremendous amount of fund too. I mean I I learned so much on the coattails of Dr J. Julius Irving, and he opened up so many doors. And prior to him, it was Marvin Webster and Paul Silas UH and and and them opening those doors. And so the UH the nineties gave way to that era of Michael Jordan's UH and those six championships that he was able to win, and the Pistons and the bad Boys, and Chuck Daily was my best friend. He introduced me to my wife.

He was my partner when I first started broadcasting back in Philadelphia on a regional station called PRISM, and Chuck had been fired by the Cavaliers. He was UH fired by Ted Seption, who was the owner UH and came back into the Sixers broadcast the pregames and halftimes with me. So I was able to UH have a tremendous UH insight because of Chunk. And so that was just an

It was a fascinating time. And obviously the nineties also gave way towards the end, towards the rise of the San Antonio Spurs, and and Tim Duncan uh and David Robinson and uh, you know, uh the end of that era. Uh magic and bird had bowed out. The Dream Team was part of that which caused this tremendous explosion for global basketball, for America exporting this game. Uh and and now all of the countries that participate and all of the players who come from these countries' is a all

because of Jordan's and the Dream Team. And and there was nobody more fun uh to cover and to be around than Charles Barkley during all of those years. He made everybody laugh. He kept it fun. He was obviously a tremendous player, but it was just a great error. To answer your question, Stephen, it was uh, you know, every time you turned around, there was a good game, and it was a fun game. And Karl Malone and John Stockton, who could ever forget Jerry Sloan and Rudy

tom Jonovitch. Rudy tom Jonovitch in the Houston Rockets, Ruddy tom Jonovitch treated so so many of us so well for so long. I'm so happy that he's going into the basketball Hall of Fame, the name Smith Hall of Fame. And uh uh he was He was just I mean, he was just wonderful. You could listen to his huddles, you could come into his locker room. He would answer any question. He trusted everybody. And I say this about Tom Brady, and this applies to Rudy tom Jonovitch. Tom

Brady trusts himself, so he can trust other people. So if you make a mistake, you hang yourself. You're your own news. If you get cut or get pushed out, it's because you screwed it up. And that's how Rudy tom Jonevitch was. Everything was fair game with him and he would tell you anything. Decide how you want to use it. Speaking of Tom Brady, what is it like you guys do a radio show together? What was it like two goats, you and Tom Brady working together on

your guys show. Well, he's the accomplished coat, he's the one that's throwing all the touchdown passes. But as he would be quick to say, he doesn't like that Moniker with him because A he's still playing and B He's got a lot of great teammates, and it takes the other ten who are on the field with him, and then the other eleven when he's off the field. So those twenty one other guys play a big, big part in in any success that he would have. But to

do the radio show with him has been a total joy. Uh. The fact that he is, in my opinion, the best quarterback to ever play and the best player in the history of the National Football League. That he makes himself available every Monday night for more than a decade for the pregame and halftime analyzes the games, answers all the questions about football. If there's something off the field that's important, Uh,

he's willing to go in and answer those questions. So UH to have that access and to have the guy he's he's become a friend and a good friend. And I'm honored that he wrote the foreword in the book, and uh that he has been willing to partner with me for all of these years. And so you know what's it like for you guys when you were able to play with Kobe or against Kobe, or when you're in the presence of Jordan's you know, it's special. You

know it's unique. You know that they're special, and you know that they have done everything that it takes to get to the absolute top step of the victory platform and stay there. And he stayed there now for for twenty years and still has a chance this year. Um in a new in a new place, with a new environment. So I've learned so much from him football wise, but I've also learned a lot from him just as a

human being. And if you can't get along with Tom Brady, and if you have a problem, and let me tell you, thirty cities have a problem with him. There's a whole lot of hatred towards Tom Brady, not because of anything that he has done other than beat the teams in those city beat the teams in those cities. So if you're outside of the New England area or outside of

Tampa Bay, you know everybody's railing against him. But if you spend five minutes with him, or if you have a relationship with him, if you can't get along with him, you better take a good long look at yourself. Um, what you come from an error? Obviously starting when you started your career, where great players, you know, stayed with one franchise. What was your thought when Tom Brady left New England for Tampa Bay. Well, you know Tom's father,

Tom Sr. He calls himself the original Tom Brady. Uh. He said this about four or five years ago. He said, it won't end well here. It never does. And he was able to look into the future having known what happened to Montana in San Francisco where where where they live. Uh, he knew what had happened, you know, with Joe Namath going obviously, uh, leaving and coming to the Rams from the Jets. He had seen it with Wayne Gretzky and how he went from Edmonton where he was a legend,

to Los Angeles and then on to New York. And so you know, the landscape is littered. Michael Jordan's ending up in a Washington Wizards uniform. Um. So you just see what happens, and it's so rare when it's the Kobe Bryant circumstance, and so sports rarely ends well. And you know, so I was saddened, um, because you know, everybody wants a storybook ending, and you want your friends to be happy, and I wanted Tom to be happy.

And then I figured out the more that I talked to him, and the more that he left me inside happiness was being able to leave at this time, not with any bitterness, not with any rancor not with anything but gratitude. I mean, so much is made out of this. I mean, he came there as nobody and he left revered, most revered football player in the National Football League. So he's not angry with those folks. Might it have been

better from moment to moment, of course. Nobody spends any time with anybody, let alone twenty years and has it perfect all the time. There's always bumps in the road. But he's grateful, he's respectful, and he's happy with that time that he spent there. But he had to go just like it seems like the organization figured that they had to let him go or move on, and so he went to Tampa. That's where he picked. His family is happy there. Uh, they have a chance to win

football games. It's not like playing in New England where he threw the ball to the same people with the same patterns and the same not the same people, but the same system for twenty years and whatever that is. How many baskets did you guys, shoot maybe a million.

So he's throwing a half a million passes to these guys, and now he's going to a new place with a new coach and a new organization, and you can't expect after, you know, twelve weeks, fourteen weeks, sixteen weeks, whatever it is to have the same connection in chemistry as he had at the place where the other stuff had gone on in six championships. But as a human being, he's very very happy, and he still wants to compete, and

he still has all that left in him. So UH, I think it was with a lot of mixed emotions in the book, in the Talking to Goats book. Uh. He called me before he made his announcement and we were on face time, and he had written two beautiful letters, one two the organization and his teammates and one to the fans. And when he read the one to me, to his teammates, UH, and to UH to the organization,

he started to cry. And it was just such a beautiful moment because you could see just how much it had meant to him, how difficult it was, but how how relieved. Also after the tears had flown, he was that that this was the right time and the and and the right thing for him to do. I mean they raised him. I mean similar to Kobe, you know, him going there at well what early twenties or twenty years old, They saw, you know, obviously his progression as a man, not only as a player, but as a

man too. So I can only imagine all the emotion attached to leaving. But like you said, and just think it's well documented that it rarely. I hate to interrupt you, but just think how close he was to pull in the plug and asking Dr Buss get me out of here, because Phil Jackson wasn't treating him right and he couldn't get along with with the circumstance that was going on

in the organization. So it was just this close. And and Dr Buss, who was a brilliant guy, you know, urged patients and you know, he was a great poker player, and he was a great basketball owner and a brilliant guy, a genius of a guy. He just said, hold on here a second, and it and it all worked out, and it ended up working out great for Kobe and the Lakers, absolutely pivoting Uh you mentioned earlier, there's nothing like the energy of a prize fight. What got you

into boxing? Muhammad Ali? I was an eighteen year old in my edit booth. They were converting from film to videotape. So all the film guys were in the union and they took the buy out. They didn't want to learn a new craft. So I was eighteen years old University of Colorado and they hired me to be a videotape editor. Hired a bunch of young men and women, and so I was in my edit booth editing the Broncos with

Red Miller show. They were getting ready for the draft, and I was there about seven o'clock in the morning, and in came the assignment editor running in and she said, you know something about sports. You were the sports intern and you edited all the sports videotape. And I said, yeah, what's going on? She said, Muhammad Ali's two and a half hours early at the airport, go interview. I had never done an interview before. It was the first interview I was ever being asked to do. So I didn't

have any any clothes. I went into the weather man's office tried to fit on his stuff, but it was too small. He was a little little hitty bitty guy named Stormy, and so I just ended up getting in my car and running out there. But you gotta understand, they couldn't find the news anchors, they couldn't find the sports anchors, they couldn't find reporters because nobody picked up their home phone at that hour. They were either sleep where they were at breakfast, or out for a jog

or in the shower, whatever they were doing. So I went out there and I saw Ali, and we went into this little room at Stapleton International Airport and I asked the first question. He said, you're doing this interview, and everybody in the entourage started to laugh. Well, that laughter made me laugh because it was funny, and I wasn't ready for this interview, and it relaxed me instead of seeming like he was making fun of me. It

was funny what he said. By about the third or fourth question, he said, you sound like the local Howard Cosell. And let me tell you, guys, that was the best Matt and Jackson Stephen, that was the best compliment I'd ever had in my life, Okay, and that just propelled me with confidence. So I came back to the to the station. He gave me forty five minutes, and I was going to edit my whole another man, though I'm sure not to interview you, but you came back a

whole another man like I was just. I was just on cloud nine. This was the most famous guy in the world as warning icon. I have watched all of his interviews my whole life with my dad, with Muhammad Ali and Howard. So I went to edit myself out because they were going to put me on the air. I wasn't an on the air personality. I was an

eighteen year old editor UH in college. So as I was editing myself out UH for the evening news, the head of the bureau walked in, the news director, man named Roger Ogden, and he watched this tape with me for an hour and a half. He watched the forty five minute interview twice. At the end of it, he looked up at me and he said, I'm putting you and this video on the air. It's barely adequate. So I tell everybody I've been barely adequate ever since, and

and here we are. But that led back then they had this thing called it was an ABC station, and ABC had this UH thing that was called d e F A b C D e F D e F for daily electronic feed, and they would feed out everything from the local stations to each other, so all of the ABC affiliates would get this. So they uploaded mine on the daily electronic feed to all the other ABC stations. Well almost all the stations took it down and put it on their news because here was a young kid

interviewing Ali. Well that got back to Ali that it was a big success the interview and how he had treated me, and and so he started letting me come to all of his fights from then on and interview him before the fight and after the fight. And so ABC took notice of that, and my boss took notice of that, and then Bob Aram hired me because he

saw that Ali had opened the door. So if Ali was good with me, then he started letting me interview Haggler and Hearns and Durant and all of his big fighters that Ray Sugar, Ray Leonard, and so that opened the door. And then Don King saw that, and then so Don King and Bob Aram, who were big big rivals, both hired me. And I was just a young kid and they would bring me in before their big close

circuit fights to do all of the interviews for that week. Well, back then, you know, there wasn't they They didn't have stuff like we have now. So this this was a way that every station in the country could get material without having to pay to put a reporter there. They'd get all of these interviews. And so it just opened all of the doors. And and uh so it's Mohammed Ali to answer your question. It was a long answer. I'm sorry, m oh good it was a great answer.

I mean, before we're moving forward, I mean they kind of hear how it started. Can you explain to our viewers where all those beautiful statues are behind? Well? Those are all those are. This is a glove given to me from Mohammed Ali. There's the great Nelson Mandela beautiful. Uh that's my wife and my dog friend. My my dog name is Raith. My wife is friend. There's Mohammed Ali and Fraser. And there's my big hero. There's my big hero right there, my dad and he passed away.

And there's my mom. She's in Denver. So that's everything that you know. And there's the Colonel. There's two pictures of the colonel. I call him the Colonel Jack Nicholson, Colonel Nathan Jessop, He's got he's got a nickname for you too, doesn't Jack Nichols. Getting back to to where we're at, um, and there's there you go. I saw the Alie in the corner. I could see that. What how different were Muhammad Ali and Mike Tyson first as

fighters but then his people as well. Totally different on all ends, um, Uh, totally different and almost everything that they've done in their lives in the way that they've approached it. Um, both great great fighters. Uh. Mike Tyson was seek and destroy and was powerful and you know, had a huge intimidation factor. And uh would go would go into the ring with the you know, with just that brutal towel over him and and those black shirt, black laced, black laced shoes and and you know, kind

of stalk back and forth and walk around. And Ali was much different in his style and an elegant robe with beautiful pretty face and I'm so pretty and um the greatest of all times, and you know, and and and his his uh, his approach was different, his body language was different, his uh skill level was different. So uh, and and Ali Tyson Tyson is Tyson is a brilliant man. Okay,

Mike Tyson is is really really intelligent. I mean he has Arthur Ashe on this shoulder, and Days of Grace and Chairman Mau on this shoulder, and he can recite the tenets of the of the Red Book, and he can tell you about history and Napoleon and Shakespeare, and he can go up and down all the lineage of boxing. And he has tremendous wherewithal and and and is really really incredible by and then Ali obviously, you know Ali

was with Shakespeare. Ali was a poet and he was he was, he was fun, he was eloquent, he was boastful, he was he was principled, he was he was all of those things that we look at and we and and and we hold in such high admiration and aspire to. And Mike, uh, there's just so much to respect as well. You know, Mike Tyson at his worst moments, uh, Matt and Stephen, at his worst moments, he comes out and faces the music and he answers the questions, particularly with me,

and I've always been grateful for that. He's not hiding behind the press release, He's not hiding behind some pr spin. He's not saying, my lawyer will handle that. He's not saying. Let the Nevada State Athletic Commission decide what happens, and then I'll release a statement. He comes out and he

takes his own medicine. And Mike wrote me a letter when he was in the Indiana and the Youth Penitentiary, in the correctional facility in prison, and it came to my house in Atlanta, and it had already been opened because the warden or the prison officials, I guess they do that so that they make sure that whatever's leaving the prison is okay to be viewed or to be seen. And so um, I got to the second page, and the letter said, they'll let me out of prison tomorrow

if I'll admit to this rape. But I'll never admit Mr Gray to something that I did not do, so I'm going to stay here in prison. Next paragraph, However, there are four or five other things that I've done throughout the course of my life that are worse than what I'm accused of. Therefore, I feel I'm at the

right place at this time. Wow. So he got out of prison and he let me do the first interview with him when he got out of prison, and I said, Mike, is this a personal letter or can I make it public? If you don't want me to say this, I won't, but if you do, then then I will. And he said, you can ask whatever you want. It's not a problem. So I asked him, what's worse than what you were

accused of? And he looked over at his lawyer, he looked back at me, and he looked into the camera and he said, you know, it's probably best not to answer this on national television because I don't know the statue of limitations. However, what I wrote you is true. I was in the right place at the right time. Mm hmm. Powerful. So they're they're much different people, much different people, but they they're both both great in their own right. But no, but nobody'll ever be like Ali.

Ali was. That's why he is, That's why he's on top. He is the goat. He invented it. Uh and and for what he did inside and out of the ring. Uh. In all aspects, Ali is by himself. Tyson started off his career like and just think about how he was in his right mind, how how he was guided by custom model but he had a good camp to right people with him. How much greater could Tyson have been? Probably probably could have been been much greater, But but he fell, He fell prey to all of the vices.

And he's not regretful of it. But he spent all that money, He enjoyed his life. He did all those things that he wanted to do with women and drugs, and to satisfy any personal need for that moment, any in any any need he had to have pleasure, he just went for it. And so he's not regretful of it, because he would be the first to tell you I I lived the way I wanted to live and had a great life. And if that meant having tigers in his house or being bitten by the lion, you know,

he was doing what he wanted to do. Or if it was in his quiet moments, which he still has now with with the homing pigeons and and and you know where he takes so much solace in that, but he was he was diverted mentally by all of these distractions. And and you saw it play out in the ring because you can't you know, you can't play boxing. Okay, it's a serious sport, and everybody who's coming at you

is serious about it. So you know, he was playing too much with with the very thing that brought him all of this attention, all of this money, all of this glory, and so yeah, I'm sure he could have been a lot greater, but I don't think that he would tell you that he would change much of it. In fact, just did an interview with him, uh, for

the book Talking to Goats. We had an hour special and I asked him specifically about some of those things that that he doesn't have regret for, and he said he probably would bite that air all over again, uh if if that's what happened to him. So he's had a long time to think about a lot of this. And you know the great thing about Mike is, you know the stuff that is in the rear view mirror. Uh,

he he doesn't try and deny it. He says, you know, that was my glory and even if they were despicable and bad acts, you know, nobody was going to take my glory. So uh, you know, I've always respected that that he he wants to own what it is that he has done and try and be better with how he goes forward than he has been in the past. I'm a big I'm a big fan. I'm going to Tachi. Yeah, I'm a huge mic fan. Being someone who had the opportunity to really get to know him outside of just

these interviews. Was it something that from from a distance you saw coming when you kind of felt like he fell from Grace's Was it the Buster Douglas fight or was it before? Like it was, it was a culmination

of things adding up. Did you see anything as first of all a friend, but second of all as okay, as your as your job in this space, like oh, Matt, you could see this coming from a million miles And you didn't have to be no noster damas you know, you didn't even have to have a crystal ball you could.

You knew that this was going to happen. You just you just knew that the way he lived his his his life with the wave of emotions and the roller coaster that he lived on, and you know that juiced him up to that that used to make him great.

And I've often thought with a lot of these great athletes who performed these incredible skills, if you start altering uh, that very being that they are and you try toning him down in this area, or making him more polite in this area, or if you just alter whatever it is of those guys. If you didn't tell Michael Phelps, if you didn't tell Michael Phelps, hey, you know what, You've been staring at a black line almost your entire adult life to figure out how you could get an

eyelash or a fingernail to that end board. First, if you started telling him to do something other than staring at that black line for the countless hours, days, months, and years that he did, well, he wouldn't be the most decorated gold medalist in the history of the Olympics because you would have altered that. So if you start altering Mike what he was, he might have not had that ferocious uh response that he had that made him great, that made him all have the entire world want to

watch him. So you could see it coming and you knew that it was going to crash, But that was all part of the beauty of it. You know, nobody, nobody has attracted the call. Everybody's attracted to the hurricane. We all tune in to see the damage that the hurricane does. Nobody really looks outside when it's sunny and seventy eight. M h, you had an opportunity to obviously get to know Mike and Muhammad ali Um in their primes. And I hate to put you on the spot because

obviously this is all speculation. Who do you feel like wouldn't want to fight when they're both in their prime? Ali? I think he proved that against Foreman, so I would I would say, Ali, And the good news is is uh, Mike. He says it right here on the back cover, so he won't be mad. He said, I'm his most trusted friends, so he would understand that. And I think he believed that too, So don't come calling and screaming at me, Mike. He wouldn't do that. But no, I believe Ali um

to see Mike back. What do you guys think? Let me ask you that question. I'm gonna I know what you're what you show. You're asking the questions, But what do you guys think? I think? I think. I think Ali got a live it too much for him. I think the same kind of problems Landox gave Mike, I think Ali would have gave him times ten. Matt, what

do you think? I agree? I agree? I agree I mean, my only thing is if it Mike could have got obviously inside, which was tough to do, but got him on the ropes inside and hit him with an uppercut. That's gonna put anybody to sleep. So that would be my only you know thinking. But uh, you know, as far as just straight boxing to me, I've never said. Obviously I wasn't around in all least primes, so everything I had to go back and watch. But from what

I saw, I don't. I don't think anyone when Ali was on his game, game, he showed didn't no one could beat him. What do you mate? I just turned forty in March l a days wait quick, yeah, man, didn't. Yeah, I just I'm twenty years from you know, it's it's it goes by fast. Does just say that it goes

by fast? I had my twenty year high twenty twenty year high school reunion, and I'm coming up man in in in two years, I'll be my twenty year college just like, holy holy, holy holy, it's going by two first even, how long are you removed from there party? I'm forty two years old. Wow, forty two years old? Yeah, yeah, I've been I've been out the league. What's going on five years now? I'm three removed. Yeah, it goes by fast. It goes by fast. Longevity is key um thoughts on Mike.

One last thing on Mike. Thoughts on Mike getting back in the ring. We just saw an exhibition against Roy Jones. I think Mike held back a little bit on some shots. He probably could have really hurt Roy. But to see after everything he's been through, good, bad and in between, to see Mike back out there, because it looked like leading up he was really enjoying himself training and and and just kind of getting because you heard him talk before that he missed that. So to see him back

out there, what did that mean to you? I thought it was a terrific night. It was fun. He lost a hundred pounds. He had rededicated himself. He hadn't found that in him since you know, he had quit on showtime. We did that fight against McBride where he just said, I can't be this person anymore. I don't have it in me. And then to be able to see what he did a couple of weeks ago against the Roy Jones Jr. And he didn't try to hurt him. He

understood that it was an exhibition. And you know, as Snooped so eloquently said on the air that night, put some sauce on those ribs, please. Uh. You know, he had him pretty good to the mid section on several occasions, but he didn't he didn't want to hit him in the face. And Roy did very well. I mean, Roy's fifty one years old and he stood in there and you can tell he was exhausted, but he made it through and he acquitted himself well. So you know, I

was happy for Mike. You know that at least he came out there and was able to accomplish what he set out to do. And he gave the fans and he gave a whole a whole new generation at least the ability to see him in good shape and to go into the ring. And I'm sure it'll set up for him to be able to do this again. Who that will be, I'm not sure where that will be

or or how that will go. But it was a tremendous financial success, it was a tremendous physical success, and they pulled it off in these COVID times and uh, everybody who tuned in seemed to uh seem to be happy. There don't seem to be a whole lot of complaints. And we get a lot of complaints in boxing. We get a lot of people who don't like what they see and and I haven't. I haven't heard that, and as well they shouldn't. It was it was. I thought it was a uh an excellent exhibition and that uh,

Mike look terrific. And you know they're going to score this thing a draw before they start, because the Athletic Commission in California doesn't allow you to score an exhibition. So the three celebrity judges who they had are doing it off a television and I'm sure it was all you know, set in so far as they weren't going to announce a winner, But anybody who watched the fight, uh could clearly tell that Mike dominated seeing that exhibition. UM.

Just hearing that Floyd announced that he's going to be fighting. UM. I think Logan Paul as someone who's been in the game from Ali to Tyson to to seeing Floyd's greatness throughout his career, how do you feel when you see arguably one of the greatest fighters of all time fighting a YouTube star. I'm never one that says somebody shouldn't do what they want to do because only they know how they feel. So only Floyd knows how he feels, and this is what he wants to do, and he

feels good about it. So whether or not the public will buy into this or want to see it, that's a whole different equation. But I think that you know, we live in We live in a place where you are free to go about and do what you want to do. So this is what he is determined he wants to do. He feels that he'll make money doing this. I guess it feels that I have some fun. Uh. Mr Paul is one of these guys who obviously has a tremendous following on social media. Is brother Jake just

knocked out Nate Robinson the other night? Uh, and he has committed himself. I don't know what logan is in terms of boxing, but the younger brother or brother Jake, has decided that that's the profession that he wants to pursue. So look, Floyd's forty five years old. Um, he hasn't really fought. Uh. You know the Connor McGregor was uh an exhibition really as well? It was. It was a huge payday and it was a fight that goes on his record, and then he ended up with Berto after that.

But I guess, you know, Floyd wants to stay active in a minimal way and do this, And who am I to sit here in judgment and say, no, don't do that. This isn't good, It's not good for you, It's not good. No, I don't believe that. I believe it's fine. If this is what he wants to do. Let the public decide. Let the public decide if they want to see this, Let boxing fans decide if they want to see it, and sure, go ahead. What do you guys think? I think it's great. I mean I

like it. Like you said, you can say what you want, but at the end of the day, people are going to tune in. And that's why I think overall, stuff like this happens because people do want to see this, and I think too often UH media or people with the platform UH will critique sit. It's like Dana White came out and kind of took a stab at what

the state of boxing he is with us. But I kind of feel like if everyone just listen to what you said and thought how you thought the whole world would be different first and foremost, but you know, stuff around sports would be different. Like you, to be an athlete, we have, you know, a small window to be as great as we can, accumulate as much money as we can, and when it's over, it's over, you know what I mean.

So for Floyd to be as great as he was, no blemishes on his record, like you said, forty five, it's still gonna be a cool little pay day and like you said, minimal work because we all know what's gonna happen. I see nothing wrong with it. He's Floyd Mayweather. He can do what he wants as long as it conforms to with what's in the law. Why not, And he's been a fighter his whole professional life. Wants to have an exhibition great, I mean, the people have their choice.

If you want to watch it, you're gonna watch it. And if you don't, then you'll move on to something else. And guess what, it will attract a lot of attention. He's Floyd Mayweather, he's a perfect fifty. And oh and apparently this other young man has a huge following of young Pole and uh so that's going to attract attention and we'll see how it collides. But don't want to see Logan getting knocked out. His brother just t k o Nate not naked. He knock Nate under the ring.

They're probably still trying to wake Nate up. Ever, the world want to see Mayweather get knocked Logan out just for advantage, and that's just what it is. So people want to see it because of that. Let's just keep

it already. It'll be interesting me if if if Floyd takes the same path that Mike did and and and doesn't want to hurt the young man, because because Floyd Mayweather is one of the greatest fighters in the history of boxing, and he didn't lose all of his skills and all of his talent because he hasn't fought for a couple of years now, he will have all of that. So I'm sure that he could do great damage to this guy. The question is is whether he will have mercy and and and let him be, or whether or

not we will see it unleashed Jack. What do you think should he have mercy or unleashed that ship unleashed man? I like because because because just think about it like this, though, if he lands good punch on Floyd where days a main thing. He's going to live up that for the rest of his life. So Floyd going there and knock him clean out. One of the first fights I got to go to was al Lee against Alzado. That's why

he came to Denver for that interview. He was gonna fight Spins and then he was gonna fight Lyle Alsado, a Denver bronco who went on to win a championship with the with the Raiders. But they had that at Mile High Stadium and Ali clowned and played for als Ado. He wanted to land a punch and he wanted to actually hit the champ and so it was serious for him.

And you know, he didn't obviously win the fight, but it was it was something that was more than an exhibition to the football player, and obviously nothing but an exhibition to the boxer. So it'll be interesting to see what type of approach Floyd takes on that. Okay, goat, what was it like to cover two other goats, Shack and Kobe. Well, it was fun. I mean Shack made things so much fun. I mean, Shack was a brilliant basketball player who who you know, obviously was a big,

big guy. And and like Will Chamberlain said, nobody loves a giant. So everybody used to beat up on Shack and he used to have to take it from the referees and take it from opponents and so forth. And but Chack's a big, lovable guy, still is to this day. And but there was a there was a personality conflict with Kobe because you know, they each it felt that you know, it was their team and and and and obviously Phil Jackson was involved in this, and you know,

Shack was a much more sensitive guy. So Kobe got beaten up upon, and it took a toll on Kobe, and uh it set him back. You know, it didn't it didn't necessarily uh shake him, uh in terms of of of his ability to move forward and continue to u achieve greatness and want to be the best basketball player of all time. He was myopic in that view. But it wore him down. Uh And so, um, you know,

they didn't have an appreciation. Chack didn't have necessarily an appreciation of Kobe until it was too late, until him and Phil had had beaten him up so bad that that that Kobe just wanted out and wanted away, and and because he wanted away, and they figured that it it was better for for Shack to move on. Um. And you know when he went through that diet tribe with me in the interview that we did, uh Kobe had

a tremendous amount of venom. And the one thing I think that you know, having been his teammate, uh Matt and then you know, having that famous thing where and you saw where he didn't he didn't flinch when you were with the Orlando Magic. One thing about Kobe, Kobe was myopic, and he just wanted to win. And if you were in his way as an opponent, he got you out of the way. And if you were in his way as a teammate, guess what, he treated you the same way. He got you out of the way.

And he did the same thing with Phil. He had total disdain for a long time with Phil Jackson. He despised him, and even Phil wrote in his book that he could feel that hatred coming from Kobe. Now they ended up fine, and they ended up winning more championships and and they patched it up later in life as they moved on. But Kobe, Kobe was certainly distracted and distraught with that treatment. And so when he when he gave that interview, I had to tone him down. I said, Kobe,

we can't you know. And it's and it's in the talking to go to his book, Uh, I said, Kobe, if if I put this on the air, Um, there was one statement in particular, I said, first of all, you'll never ever have any kind of a relationship, let alone win championships with this guy. Uh and and and this organization. But you'll also have a hard time just going to work every day. I said, We'll let the rest of this go because they're your words, not mine.

And but the one, the one, the one statement that we took out that I said, Kobe, I'm editing this out. I said, not only for you, but for me. I I have to have a relationship with Shack. He's said, uh. He said that Quille O'Neill he was referring to. He said, the guy selling donuts at the seven eleven had more

pride in his job than Shack did. And this was the same interview that he had gone public calling him fat and lazy, and that he had surgery on the organization's time and he would do it on company time. Instead of his time while he wasn't ready for the season, and so you know, it was volatile enough without that. And for the next two or three years, Uh, Shack.

I called Shack before this interview came out to give them a heads up because I really like Shack and I enjoyed covering him and we had a terrific relationship. And he didn't want to respond, And then it came out and he threatened to kill Kobe the next day. In fact, they put in a metal detector over there

and Kobe jumped up and said, let's fight, okay. And all of this has been confirmed by Shack as recently as the All Star Game this February in Chicago, and by John Black, the PR director of the Lakers former PR direct here. But anyway, I called him to let him know this interview was coming out, guys, and he didn't want to respond. But for the next two or three years he called me Trader Gray. Here, it comes Trader Gray, and he wouldn't talk to me. Trader Gray,

Trader Gray. So we have a great relationship now and I love I love Shack. But when you ask about what it was like to cover them, uh, they had obviously tremendous highs with those uh three peak championships and uh to see that excellence of one of the greatest tandems in the history of of of basketball. But they also had some some really really really low lows, and so it was always unique and interesting. And I loved Kobe, and I knew Kobe from the time that he was

an infant in in his mother Pam's arms. I was a scout believe it or not, guys for the San Diego Clippers, for Paul Silas and Pete Babcox. I had known Kobe as just uh. I'd seen Kobe grow from when his dad Jelly being played for the Clippers, and obviously my time in Philadelphia and and then so forth. But UH still hurt, still hurt, and grief that loss, and it's just tragic for Vanessa and the girls and

the other families. But covering them, covering them was a great joy, and it was it was really really an interesting time and and something that will never see again. Nothing. You know, what I find interesting obviously is to me knowing code the way I did, and when I hear new stories, he used all the negativity as fire like that's what you saw on the court that mambo was he had a way of channeling all the other noise

and distractions and bullshit into fire. But then at the same time, it's also amazing to hear the human side to let people know, like people have feelings, like this really wore him down and and I never knew that. And like to me, like I said, it's just interesting, especially when you're hearing about the goats, but just people in general. I think often people think we're robots that were just straight athletes because we make money, nothing affects

us nothing. But it's interesting to hear that the human and the emotional side of what that cause, you know, because I know I hear a lot and have been around l A's kind of since Code got here, and you would hear stuff like, damn, they really did used

to funk with Code, you know. I heard one story one time where and it was confirmed that Code would come on the plane of the bus sometimes with his headphones on but off, just so we can kind of hear what kind of ship that Shaq was gonna, you know, kind of be saying, but you know, everyone you might have thought they were on, but to kind of hear, you know, the human side and and and how that did beat him up and wear him down. But to see the finished product of what it turned him into,

you know, it was pretty special. Shack was brutal to Kobe. Okay, he would he he was brutal in many ways. Uh take all the success aside. I mean, you know, Shack knows how to get everybody to coalesced around him. He's fun, he's engaging, he's he's light. Shock notes, Shack is a great, Shock is a great. You know, I played with Shock. I love Shocked to death. But like I said, you were around and then hearing stories it it sounds like it was. It was. It wasn't all out of time.

He knew how to recruit guys into his camp, and Kobe wasn't. Kobe wasn't trying to be in anybody's camp. Kobe was trying to be the best basketball player ever and win championships. So he wasn't engaged in that type of fraternal order or you know, have to be the pipe piper, so to speak. And so you know, it worked against him and hurt him, but it also helped elevate him because he became stronger mentally. That Mamba mentality. And you know the good thing was it's by the

end of Kobe's life. You know, they had worked out at the tant They weren't close, they weren't the best of buddies, they didn't hang out, but you know, they had a dant that they realized the time that they had spent together with Special that it probably had ended too soon. But Kobe went on and did what he wanted to do and prove to himself that he could be a champion with pall Gasol and with other teammates

and to be the leader of the group. Instead of having you know, Shot make a self declaration that it was his team, Kobe was able to prove that no, it was it was in fact his team. So um, and at the end of the day, you know, you probably never know how good you have it till you don't have it anymore. I mean, everybody's life is kind of riddled with that, right. Um. All of us looked back and said, you know, that was pretty good. Why

did I do things like that? And I think that they had come to to that, Like I say that the tome where they had come back together, not close, but just not antagonized anymore. What made Kobe, in your eyes, so special, He cared so much. He cared, he dug into everything deeply. If he was committed, he was committed, and that meant friendship to and loyalty. Was very loyal to me. I saw his loyalty play out UH in numerous ways, UH to a host of folks. And he

never forgot. This guy had a memory. You talked about elephants have memories. No Kobe's. Kobe's have memories. They should rename the term. This guy did not forget anything about anybody at any time. If it was an act of kindness, he always appreciated it. If it was a slight, he had it filed. He had a big, big cabinet, and he knew, he knew where everybody was all the time,

and he had it all sorted out. So he had he had a great, great memory, and he could also compartmentalize, and he would use for good what worked for good for him, and use for bad. As you pointed out earlier, that motivation and that fire and it drove him. And I think the other thing that that happened with Kobe is Kobe had a thousands and thousands of acts of kindness and he didn't look for recognition of it. He

didn't want that acknowledgement. He didn't want that to go against that Mamba mentality that maybe somehow somebody might figure out that he had a softness, you know, that that that would work against him. But let's remember what's the most lasting impression that we have now of Kobe Bryant. It's kissing Gig, It's it's it's girl dad, that hashtag, it's it's you know, not only what he achieved on the basketball court, but it's that love that everybody has

for him, what they saw off the court. And I was able to see that, you know, virtually his whole life and so and and that's what hurts so bad is that we don't have that anymore. Yeah, I mean, it's it's it's crazy you said that the lasting memory, because I felt the same way. I actually got that tattooed on my leg her at the All Star Game, reaching up and giving her dad a kiss. I I got that tatted on my leg about four months ago.

So that is, at the end of the day, say what you want to me, that's what it was for me. You know, everything else was great, but the dad he was was what was so special and that's what really over Our connection grew was with kids and him sending my kids shoes and him coming to my kid's AU games and us going to check out GIS games. Like that was my eatness aside mamba side, like the human side of of Kobe is is what I, you know, always hold on to whenever I'm kind of feeling down

about anything. He was special. It was just special. And I get goose bumps there and you say that about the tattoo, the tattoo that you have, and you know, I I knew him on on on, you know, just just just as a great, great friend. And we took a trip a few years ago uh to Hong Kong. Uh number of people in Hong Kong's some billionaires and Chinese billionaires wanted to hear Kobe speak, and so, UH make a long story short, they had me come interview him.

And then after this interview for like twenty people for an hour, we went to a bar in Hong Kong and they only spoke Chinese there except where we sang karaoke. And Uh, I just never forget that night of of Kobe singing. Uh. Uh the jay z song of New York with Alicia Keys and my wife singing an Elvis song,

I Can't Stop falling in Love with You. And my wife friend had had done the first commercial she worked for the Coca Cola company and did the first commercial that Kobe ever did when he was a seventeen eighteen year old youngster. Uh, first for sprite. Uh. She she did that commercial. So they had been very close for a long time as well. And Uh, and then I sang John Denver song believe it or not, country Roads Take Me Home, and we were singing in this Chinese uh,

Chinese bar in Hong Kong. Country Roads anyway, So uh, West Virginia. So it made me even think of Jerry West when I was doing it, and and Kobe and I just kind of and and we were there and there were there were maybe twenty five or thirty people there, and his guard was totally down, and uh, and that's the Kobe that that I remember. That's the Kobe that that that you know, I was exposed to. And Uh,

it's it's the one that that that we miss. And it's uh, the great, the great thing about Kobe, as tragic as this death is, he's left an imprint and indelible impression in our minds. And the outpouring um of of love and respect that was shown to him, uh and displayed um is you know, really in a category and almost unsurpassed in Los Angeles that I can remember um and across across the country and across the globe.

And perhaps it's because of the way that he was lost with the others and and a beautiful girl, Gigi, and and perhaps it's because that's how they felt all this time and never were able to show him while he was alive. Right, that's why now that surprised me. No, but I mean that's why, you know, you're an advocate of giving people flowers, why they're here, and it's a it's an interesting point you to stun Jim. I think more than anything, they knew it. They just never you know,

all the back talking in bullshit. They figured at one point, hey, I'll be able to pay my respects. But it just goes to show you never, don't you know that they had these amazing feelings about them, but they disguised them with hate in bullshit instead of just saying, hey, like we got a lot of love for you. But anyway, man, rest in peace to our brother Kobe and g G and obviously everyone else left lost on that flight two ten. Tell me what what what what it was like sitting

across from Lebron James during the decision. From your point of view, it was the most unique moment I've had, probably in my career. It was the star of the NBA announcing to the league in the world his intentions. And I didn't know the answer to the question. I didn't want to know the answer to the question. And

he was doing this, you know. It was like UH having a press conference with only one person being able to ask the questions, and that was me for this a show to give millions upon millions of dollars to the boys and Girls clubs that would help change and affect the lives for the better of thousands of kids. And UH be able to find out where where exactly Lebron was going to be playing, whether he would be

staying or going elsewhere. So it was it was really unique. Um, nothing like that had ever occurred before, UH, And might I say, nothing like that probably will occur again. No. Absolutely, he took a lot of heat, I guess for the way it was done kind in all eyes on me situation, and whether you like the way he made it happen or not, what I took away from it was player empowerment.

You know, he showed people for like superstars in particular, for the first time, like this is your career, Like, do what you want to do with your career now.

Like you said, you may not agreed with the vehicle in which he did it, but at the end of the day, what I took away from it, and you've seen the ripple effects since as if you're a superstar, like you know, these teams aren't loyal at the end of the day, aren't loyal to you, and then the second you can't perform from them, they're gonna cut you trade your way view like take your career in your

future and you're planning your own hands. And I always had a lot of respect and admiration for him when he did it that day, because ten years later you've seen a whole new landscape of the NBA because of the decision. That's exactly even I mean even today, even today, look James Harden holding out so you know, you hit it exactly exactly right, Matt and and Jack's exactly exactly right, and in the rear view mirror now ten years But

it was the beginning of player empowerment. And I say that in talking to Goats in the book that the um this was the Kurt Flood moment for not only basketball players, but for players really in every sport. Of course, Kurt Flood all those years ago challenge the reserve clause and it was a very difficult road for him, but he paved the way for you guys. He paved the way for all athletes to be able to have the ability to be free. Okay, and he was doing it

for baseball. Well, what Lebron James did here was not only the beginning of player empowerment in the and and the ability to bring super teams together. We had had super teams before, but it was the organizations who had put them together. It was the organizations who had manipulated it. It was not it was not because a certain player decided he wanted to go play with Dwyane Wade and Chris Bosh together that he did on his own volition.

It was because the organizations were able to uh manipulate the system and bring folks together, or the draft worked out that David Robinson was hurt very badly one year and they were able to get the draft pick which turned into Tim Duncan. Well, that was more, you know, a quirk of fate than it was any planning. There was no planning in that it happened. It happened because one guy who was the best player or one of

the best players, David Robinson hurt. And I understand that we have Kevin Garnett and what happened in Boston, I get all that, But what Lebron James did, it not only was player empowerment of deciding where you were going to go, how you were going to go, and when you were going to go. It also was really the advent and the birth of this social media of blossoming and boom okay. Now everybody that night when he took that hour from ESPN gave the money to charity. Is

how athletes then decided they were going to communicate. Without the vehicle of the PR Department or without David Stern and the NBA having the ability to have the approval, they did it. He did it on his own, and he took all of the risk and he ultimately now got all of that reward, but he took. They made him into a villain, and the guy's never been a villain. What can you villainize about a guy who's won four championships? What can you villainize about a guy who's been to

what ten NBA finals? What can you villainize about a guy who's built a school, who stands up for social just this, who gets people to go out and vote, who basically, uh, basically has done everything right, everything right in public. Okay, So now all of a sudden he had a television show to announce that he decided he wanted to go play basketball someplace else, and everybody and I understand, we could have been better. We could have

done better. We could have been more sensitive to the fans in Cleveland who were deeply hurt by the best player in the league and a hometown hero from just outside inn Akron leaving their team. So we could have we could have handled that a little bit more sensitively, all of us um and and you know there there are certain aspects of the show obviously that had quirks

and flaws. But look at social media now, and look at not only that, but the players Tribune and every and how and how you guys in all of sports now communicate with the public. You guys are now media media guys, your moguls, you have your own platforms. Okay, Well that really really started. That was the commencement of it. Okay. And I think that all athletes are a tremendous debt of gratitude to Lebron for what he had to go

through to give them a better place. We now spend we now spend the majority of the year talking more about where is Kevin Garnett gonna play before he even wins the championship next year? Where will Kawaii Leonard end up before he's even completed the task, where he is, where is he going next year? And some of this, not all of it's for the good, but I would say a high percentile is very much for the good.

And they owe all of that to Lebron. I agree, and I wish you know as as a former player and then moving into the media and media based too, but fans as well. I just had an appreciation and understanding for the moment of greatness, of not only Lebron's greatness, but of Kobe's greatness before he passed, of Steph's greatness of Janice's greatness. And I think too too too often it's it's cooler to hate or say something negative instead

of showing appreciation. Just crazy to me, because at the end of the day and you touched on him with Kobe, a lot of people had admiration with Instead of showing admiration, they showed hate or despise or you know, sneak ship instead of just kind of realizing the moment and how special and lucky we are to be able to watch these guys do what they do at this kind of level. I'm not sure why all that goes on. It's it's it's it's a mystery to me. But Greenspan said something

to me a long time ago. You guys know who Bud Greenspan was. He was a guy that wore the glasses on top of his head. He's before your time. He was a great olympian and documentarian, historian of the Olympic Games, and he did great films like Jesse Owens Returns to Berlin and The Wilma Rudolph Story and The Last African Runner, and he won all kinds of awards, peabodies, Emmy's Everything, and he said something to me when I

was young and working for him. After I had done that Ali interview and I came out to Los Angeles to work on the eighty four Olympics as as one of the producers on his film Sixteen Days of Glory, and he said to me something that that just doesn't seem to be to perveye in our in our society, um because of the competition. And when he said it to me, I thought it was condescending and arrogant, but he said, I knew I was good when I could

look at someone else's work and admire it. I'm just not sure why people just can't look at people's work and admire it. Maybe they don't feel they're good, Maybe they don't feel that they're up to snuff. Maybe they don't feel I think it always perfect in their lives, and maybe they just feel that by tearing down somebody else somehow that makes them look better, them feel better. But yeah, it's more it's a sad circumstance. It's more of a reflection on the person who's doing it, you

know what I mean. And I think that's obviously the era we live in now with social media, which is unfortunate and that's why I try to shield my kids because they're coming into the spotlight that you know, we just launched their podcast and we have a behind the scenes show. They're a you team, and it's weird that I have to have a conversation on what's coming for them, like people are gonna hate you for and they're not

even great, they're just their kids. But at the same time, knowing where they're going, people are gonna hate you because you have something going for you, and you have to kind of understand that and not let that play with your mind because as a child, you know, we're fortunate enough to not really start listening to all the buzz until social media came around, but to grow up in it and to hear and constantly compared in in trash talk, in disrespect and hurtful things being said to a child.

I think that's something you need to brace them for, because that's not something we grew up with. We didn't grow up with constant negativity at the palm of our hand. I would agree with that. I mean, you know, it's it's it's a whole different paradigm. I mean, we used to have letters to the editor and one letter used to represent how a thousand people would feel. But that letter didn't always get printed even if even if they had a negative feeling, or they would call into the

station and they would inundate the switchboard. You know that happened to me with Pete Rose interview. You know all of the negative hate mail and and all of the tonts and threats that came into the voice mails, and and what they did to the switchboards across the country. But the negativity of today and and uh with young kids, and the bullying that goes on, and and and and the seemingly okaynus if that's a word of this being

directed at people. UM. I think it was Mike Tyson who brilliantly said not too long ago, um, and I have it on my telephone. But because I love the quote, I haven't go ahead and tell it. I think people get too comfortable with disrespecting it. Was something along those lines. People have gotten way too comfortable with being able to say negative stuff about it without facing the consequence of being punched in the mouth, straight up, straight up. One thing,

one thing, I was tired. I was tired as a young and it's some free game for all the youngsters that there. And it's something that I always lived by. Never demean somebody for your personal game. It's gonna always backfire on you. I agree with that. I agree with that absolutely twenty Basketball Hall of Fame class Kobe KG Duncan. How much do you epitomize excuse, how much do they epitomize goats? With just all the fame class? Well, Kobe leading the way, Um, it's it's it's it's a it's

an unbelievably great class. Okay, and Tim Duncan is such an understated guy, but boy was he great. Uh, great to deal with as a professional, just a just a true professional, great to be around, obviously, a great teammate, a great champion, um and uh, just a pleasure Kobe.

Obviously we've we've we've talked about him. And you know who who else had the dedication uh that that Kevin Kevin Garnett gave to the game of basketball and the pursuit of excellence that he, uh, that he put forth for all of those many years and to see that rewarded, you know, after what had gone on and all that he gave to Minnesota and falling short with the Timberwolves and then coming and being able to capture that championship with the Boston Celtics, and and to uh, you know,

to see you know, just to have been able to see his story and to see what what had been achieved, and then you know the others who are going into that class as well. Um, it's uh, it's it's it's better sweet, it's it's it's sweet to see those guys get their day. It's it's better because of COVID and obviously, uh with without Kobe being there, I know Vanessa will

be participating. Um, I'm honored that I've been given the Kirk Gaudy Award to be able to participate, which is tremendous thrill and honor for me to be able to get that award at the Hall of Fame with with Kobe and the others that Mike Breen also getting it in the in the Gang from H. Turner, Ernie Johnson and H Charles Barkley and and and their show going in with Kenny Smith and Shack. So it's a it's a it's it's a great class. Um and it's uh it I mean, are you gonna get any better than

those three? Uh? And the others who will who will be with them um Uh, Tamika Catchings Uh look at everything that she was able to achieve, you um and and the other Hall of famers. So unfortunately it wasn't able to happen back in August, and it'll happen now in the second week I believe of May is when we'll all go to Springfield and Mohican Son and have that ceremony before the class of will go in uh

later in the summer. Congratulations to you as well, all right, absolutely, I mean in case you guys missed it, I mean

he's going. You're going in the Hall of Fame as well, your Hall of Fame obviously on the media side, but it just goes to show just your body of work has has been rewarded as it should be, and how much as someone who played the game and got a chance to interact with you, and now someone who's in the media space as well, how much we respect and look up to you and appreciate what you've done, not only for the game, but showing other media outlets how

you should handle and deal and actually build friendships with athletes, because like I said, it's at the very beginning of you, it's very rare to have friendship, and you have been friendships and in great relationships with some of the greatest ever played any game. Well, thank you. And that's what's meant the most to me. It's the relationship. You know, I just heard you know, you obviously have children. My wife and I don't have children, So our friends are

our family. And so when you are able to have these friendships and these relationships with guys, uh, you know, there's tremendous meaning in it. And that doesn't mean that you don't do your job. And that doesn't mean that I haven't asked all of these guys questions that needed to be asked. A lot of times they said, well, is that a conflict? Well, what's the conflict? I've asked everybody who's been in front of me what I thought should be asked for the people I work with and

for and for the audience. And uh, somebody asked me about that at the Hall of Fame, the Boxing Hall of Fame a couple of years ago, uh, with Mike Tyson and I and I said, look, Mike Tyson just got hit in the head a hundred and fifty times by Evander Holyfield. Tom Brady just got sacked five times by Michael Strahan, Kobe Bryan. It's been elbowed, his feet are stepped on, He've been knocked to the ground eighteen times.

Do you really think there's any question that I asked him, uh, that he's going to be offended by or somehow you think that will affect our relationship? If that was the case, how could they have ever competed in the game that just transpired. They couldn't do it. So of course you ask the questions that are necessary, but that doesn't mean that you can't have a relationship with somebody or that you can't be able to, you know, have empathy for them and compassion for them when they win, lose, or

joy either way, any of those feelings. So the relationships I think, uh, as you guys will attest now that you're out of basketball, isn't that what you've taken with you now as you carry on in your life. Yep. Absolutely, that's a big reason for success. I was about to say, that's why we're here now is what we formed as players, and that's why everybody comes on your show. They don't come on your show because they can't stand you they come on your show because you have a relationship with

your right I agreed, home stretched quick hitters. First thing to come to mind. We'll started off with the best fight you ever covered Castillo, Corrales and Hagler, hearns oh Still Coral showtime. That was unbelievable and the Ego Corrals rest his soul had the had the greatest response to a question that I've asked. I said, how would you describe this fight? He said, this fight was an honor big best NBA moment covered. Wow, Um well I was. I was personally thrilled for Julius Irving at the time

to win that championship. And then obviously to see Michael Jordan's final shot as a bull uh that was great. And then to have been at that Dream Team practice uh in Monte Carlo to see the best game that nobody unfortunately ever got to see. Uh. So I would say that even though that wasn't an NBA moment, uh those three uh and and to have Chuck Daily win a championship as my best friend and um as I stated earlier, introduced me to my wife and and just it was was such a dear, dear close pal to

see him win that championship with the Pistons. Yeah, that was that was that was special, particularly after the disappointment of losing in the Boston Garden and Isaiah throwing away the ball and then losing to pat Riley and the Lakers the year before in that game seven. So I would say those four things, two of them really personal and two of them just huge, huge events in the history of basketball. Favorite interview, Favorite interview, Well, I probably

would say my favorite. I would say the first one with Ali and the ear biding with Tyson. We didn't get to get into them, and that would have been awesome. Five goat dinner guests, So around the table, a nice bottle of wine. Who are you? Who are five people you're having at your table? Human? Just human beings? Are works? No? He people? People? Yeah? Whoever? Nelson Mandela, who I did have a meal with. He was the most remarkable and special man I ever met, uh Winston Churchill because of

obvious reasons. Um Muhammad Ali because he makes everything so much fun, and he would have just had everybody laughing, and you know, would have even with those folks, been probably the center of attention. Um My dad, because he was my hero, and I'm gonna come back to that last guest before we finished. I don't want to think about that for a second. Maybe maybe maybe Dr King because he was so prevalent. Maybe President Kennedy because that

was that was so traumatic in my childhood. To see both of them assassinated would have been kind of cool. I think to be able to have a conversation with them and understand more about them, uh, and and learn from them. Oh obviously, you know you could get into religious figures. Uh. You know it would be interesting to have them as well. So um, yeah, I know, I know I'd have those four and I'll come back to the fifth. All right, who would you like to see

on our show? And if you know them personally, we would love your help getting them. I'd like to see Barack Obama on your show. Oh whoa good? Yeah, you do you a go for a reason, man, you are because he loves basketball, and I think he would enjoy what you guys have to ask him. I don't know that I don't have any influence, unfortunately, on the former president other than I've interviewed them before a few times.

But I think if you put out your failers and you guys know how to connect that he's a basketball aholic and go for halic absolutely, so I think that I think thank you. Uh, this has been a very special interview today. Man. I've enjoyed every second. I was hypotized by some of your stories. Um, we appreciate all. Like we said earlier, all you've done in this space and continued success. Best wishes for you and your wife and your mom as well recovering from cancer. So thank

you for your time today. Thanks so much for having me. I appreciate it. And we're gonna have six guests. I'd bring along you Matt and you Mr Jackson, that would let's do it all right? Hey, well that's a wrap. Uh. That's another edition of All the Smoke. Thank you to our guests, the legendary Jim Gray going into the Hall of Fame in the good luck with that, you can catch us on Showtime Basketball YouTube in the I Heart

platform Black Effects. We'll see you all next time. This is All a Smoke, a production of The Black Effect and our Heart Radio in partnership with Showtime