Jermaine O'Neal | Ep 99 | ALL THE SMOKE Full Episode | SHOWTIME Basketball

about there. Welcome to show, Jermaine O'Neil. Man. Let's get right into it. Man, You've got something, A big project you've been working on. Untold comes out of Netflix, The Alice at the Palace. August Tip talked to us about that and your involvement in it. Man. Honestly, it's been, uh, it's been about really ten years. I've been looking to try to get into this film thing. Obviously, Jack, he was involved with this. So you know how I feel about like the stories and the narratives of of things

that out there. Right. Um, So, I when I'd have met with a bunch of different producers directors, didn't really feel like people understood where I was trying to go with it. The idea behind the film was not to the abbot NBA fan, but just to the actual person, regular everyday person that actually knew about the malice. Right. It was a conclusion that was out there that we

never actually got an opportunity to talk about. So I wanted to do a film that spoke to that, to that person because, to be quite honest, Uh, seventeen years later, just tired of talking about it while it has an anniversary. So I felt like this Doctorum was able to give

us our platform. Uh, now you have people have to be able to make a conclusion on actual facts actually, and that somebody else sitting on on accouch somewhere, you know, writing them some articles that they don't know because it's been almost like urban legend, you know. I mean, that was one of the biggest incidents in NBA history, and it's almost has been like urban legends. Part what happened were led up to it? What happened after all? This kind of shift. So you guys finally got a chance

to tell that. What do you want the average fan of the average person to take away from this stock Well, you know, first, like I gotta say a big thank you to Netflix for given an opportunity perfect time and the way brothers um they understood uh, Florida director understood division. Right,

that was important. They were able to get it. Um. But you know, this dock is is important to me um in many ways because it allows people and when people think about the brawl, they always you don't care where I'm at a man, I'm a gonna scrap some people talking about they don't know everything else we went on. This went on for like ten years, bro, Like I had a felony, the same charge you'll get for shooting

and stabbing somebody, you know what I'm saying. And it was like a situation where to me, beyond even those things, it allowed people to take shots at a culture, right, take shots at our league, and still not be able to have a conversational, real educated conversation about what actually really happened. Right, And this is what this doc really gives you people opportunity to kind of relate to and say, Okay, damn, that was that was. It was much bigger than them

throwing hands. They just looked at us, some rich thugs out there. They didn't take time to comprehend nothing, why I went down, why we wasn't protected, how we was treated. None of that matter, So I'm excited to be involved. Uh And it's doc and I'm glad I was happening. Jail called me because, like you said, I'm tired of talking about it too, you know what I mean? And you do you do more? And it's doctor here our side.

You see actual footage, you know what I mean. To you can judge for yourself to see how we was treated and how we wasn't protected, you know what I mean. And and then a lot of things gonna come to light. So I can't wait till I can't wait to the World season August time. And my brothers are also executive producer in it. So how was that night impact of your career after that? Well? I know, but tell them, you know, I know firsthand. Um, to me, wasn't even

about just the basketball. I remember, I remember, you know, going getting back, getting re estated. A lot of people don't even know I took the NBA the court in one Yeah, tell us about that, you know. So I feel always that that day, Yeah, we felt like we had the right to do what we did right, And so going going through that whole arbitration, if I didn't if if I didn't have to go through the arbitration to get to the federal court, out have been back

playing sooner. So I went through a situation where the judge said, hey, you had the right to do what you it and it was it was to me when you talk about career and all this other stuff. That's the part that that made me a little bit better towards everything, because the NBA had an opportunity to write it, to write it right. The Pacers had an opportunity to write it. Understood bottom line, numbers matter the most, right. They didn't know how to handle it um. So I

understood that part. But once we went to court and got through that process, you would think that they would have said, okay, we're good. But they didn't write I come back. I get reinstated at the fifteen games. So you got fifteen, you got thirty, got shortened, you had thirty all of them. I'll tell you what mine didn't give you do stuff. The same day ran did something

else crazy during the middle of the arbitration. Yeah, it was crazy because again, if I don't have to go through the whole process of arbitration, I would have been back playing. So I get back I get reinstated and I still give I still make the All Star team, right, I'm I'm voting in as a starter and my wife get to Houston. It ain't a picture for me to be found you like that, Dade not working with me.

They're not working with me. And that was the first time I understood when I when I'm telling y'all, no picture nowhere, Like I'm a starter, right, So those are the picture that you see first unless they see you walking around, they wouldn't even know I'm looking through the books. No picture, right, And so that was like the moment where I really like really understood what that was, like what the impact of that was, and um that to

me again, it wasn't personal for me. The thing that bothered me the most is when people of quote unquote substance that are talking about Jack me Ron, the NBA players, braids, tattoos, music culture, culture that was at things for me bro right, because now they are allowed to do. Bob Costs was one got a lot of respect for Bob Costs. Watch the dog, watch the thing that thug World was thrown out there probably a thousand times, a thousand times. All of a sudden, it's it's it's about you know, hip

hop music we listened to. It's about our corners, about our tattoos, about the color of your skin. Not knowing that day hockey, right, I remember going through the whole arbitration process and the lawyers bringing up some hockey stuff, celebrated get to beat the hell out of each other on the regular basis, people routing that on right, they ain't talking about the hairstyle. They ain't talking about the music.

They're listening to baseball same way. Right, you get to get the rush, the mount getting through some hands, but they ain't thugs. So to me, it became more about a race thing, and and it put our league in a position, and we all care about the league. It's been special to was in the special to our families, not only for us person but generationally right, And so that was the thing that was was hurtful towards me.

And we had to have a muzzle because we still got criminal that we're dealing with and got civil standing right behind it. How long we was in court and all that dragon back and forth. Man, people don't even understand that, so you know, So to me, it wasn't necessarily about the career because honestly, after that point I understood what it was. Right. It was no debate, right. You know, you have to be stupid death for blind

to understand not understand what was happening. Right, you know, I knew that the league was really fucking with me before and then afterwards, you know, had the opportunity people don't know, the stack knows us, had opportunities that I I don't even You might not even notice that opportunity to step away from Brian and Jack in the whole projects all to separate yourself and happen. Okay, And I say that, um,

the league. I took a call the day after. People don't even notice, and they asked me, um to do a couple of things. And what I did, what Jack did was in straight protection of my teammates. Right. When people talk about leadership, people talk about togetherness, people talk about brotherhood, that is tested when your asses in uh twenty ced arena and people at you right, and so you know, to go back to the question, the career thing wasn't necessarily the issue. Um, it was perception, because

I'm still dealing with that today. I was in Vegas this past weekend and I might have nine people might have asked me about I can't. I cannot step away from it. I'm almost tired of talking about it, to be honest, because kids are asking me that wasn't even born. So you know, from a career standpoint, I still end up played eighteen years. The thing that I'm mad about the most, I didn't get an opportunity to I'm the

only one that actually didn't get the opportunity. With the championship in the Hope pros said, and you have Reggie up and Reggie yeah, but talked to that too, because Jack, I want to get back to you and which you went through and the ship you talked about. But in the midst of all that's going on, you guys have one of the best teams in the league that year. We were the best team in the league when that happened.

Facts facts, There's no question. Um, but we wont We had the best record of yere before and got beating the conference finals. Body Truck. We knew going we hadn't already, you know, the trader for Jack. We came back to camp, everybody was in town early. We was like, we're about to win this. We bout we bout the whoop and everybody. And then when that happened, it like it wasn't a situation like you knew right away after that day that

it was. It was done right. And I remember going and talking to Donnie and Larry and them and say, hey, look man, like let's just hold on winning. Heels everything right, I mean, just you know, every things happen in professional

sports that year. The coach had some things going on their team, they held it together like family would do, like any any other family, and they didn't and it just remember just you know, the city was broken, um, the league was broken because they felt pressure from corporate America about doing something and making change. His dress code

pops up right afterwards. You know, people looking at us, you know, the same hugs and kiss as you get walking into places you ain't getting no more because you know, people feel like you. The reason and the thing that I'm probably most disappointed about the most when we talk about journalism, right, the lack of people, the lack of professionalism that people had towards this process right, not doing the work. Not doing it wasn't even about being writers,

about being first. What kind of story can I put out there about this without actually not having any facts behind it, Jack to what happened. So let me interview

you for a second. So when you said you got thirty games and you had to do all because Ron did something else during your arbitration, well, basically Jail went first, and he basically laid the blueprint for us to all possibly get our games reduced, right because Jail, Jail touched on something that nobody thought of when he went up to I remember this Vivilaine Jail saying, No, I hear what everybody's saying, But Mica, sign is how my kids gonna look at me after watching this on TV all

day and that total room down, like they initially like, wow, we need we're not thinking about your families and like that. And that's why Jail got his games reduced because he brought a different side of that nobody was thinking about, right Son, as if I'm sitting there and Jail was killing it, he over there killing the Ron slides a letter over to me men arbitration, and everybody seen him

do it. You remember this well, and everybody likes pay attention, bro, And I don't even want to take it, you know what I'm saying, because like everybody looking at us now, and the letter said, did you really hint the guy I'm like, you asked me that's doing the middle arborit trais when we're trying to get our games re dudes and and and then to my when he sleep it over. Man, it was loud and everybody looked, you know what I'm saying, something like, damn not know, we ain't gonna get our

games with dudes, and we didn't. I get update, you know, you know, I basically said, I just said the exact thing Jamas said. But I was like, you know, that's my teammker. You know what I'm saying, We're family. I'm with him one with my I'm with my own family doing the course of the year. So I just I just did what a teammate should do. You know what I'm saying. I didn't. I didn't. I didn't really elaborate on nothing else and they and they didn't reduce my games.

But we still made the playoffs, still made it out the first round. Then we did we get to the second round. Still after all that was still made into the second round. So that's how I know that team is good, you know what I'm saying. But if ron would have been more locked in if at the arbitration and he came dressed the path man. He had on some tux sedo pants with a whole another different color suit jacket with some with some basketball like he like, he did not take it serious at all. He did

not take it serious at all. Bro And and that's a big reason why I made him to get out, because he was talking doing the harbor traction and all kindstuff that was unnecessary. But I would say this though, right like, it's like the human element that was that was lost in this entire process, right. And I remember saying this on the stands when the prosecutor was it was a question to me, I said, He asked, what

you do this again? I said, in the same position, absolutely, I said, would you go and knock on my door and tell my wife and kids that the dad that their dad and and and her husband is dead if one of those chairs hit me in my head? I said, So you have to ask yourself, what would you do in a situation like that where it is no police officers in there, and any bar he thought beer and somebody face that's the saut that's a st anywhere else. But when it comes to dealing with a million dollar

black athletes, it's thugs going into the stands. And I saw two on your breakfast club in and be recently Jack that if you guys didn't react to the beer being thrown, the fan would just probably got to throw the beer. That's basically what it was. And you right, man, no one would have happened to him. It's just been a panther on the beard. They would have highlighted it, but they wouldn't kicked him out, you know, suspended for coming to games and nothing like that. J. You don't

really you're not really out in the media. You don't really speak much. But it was known kind of around the league that you don't have to get into super detail. But you've got a hard time kind of forgiving um the whole process. And there was a rift between you and Ron for a while and it finally came you know, you guys just you know, you got cool a little while ago. But how hard was that, Like I said, just the overall understanding of the process and then kind

of the internal riff with you too. Well think if you know me, like you know, I'm about the right thing, right, Um I am? I am very intense in many ways. I am a zero to ten guy, But um, I like to talk things through and and Ron what I what? I Here's what I wish I would have knew back then that I know now. It's his struggles, right. Mental health is the real thing in our in our world, and we all deal with things a little bit differently. Um. He he was dealing with it in a way that

I didn't understand. But it's not to cut you off, but we're just starting to talk about mental health now and thinking about this is seventeen years ago, so this is not even registering with us really as anybody really registering with us. So go ahead. And I took it as as disrespect I mean, Jack was in a lot. I just took it as he was being disrespectful to all of our time and effort, right, and the pacers

was doing the best job. But they could I think at the time, together to hold it together, because um, he would. We did just didn't know. I mean, he would just not show up the stuff, right. I mean people don't realize too, um that it really for us. It started for me and him. It started the year before in the conference finals, right where at the game that Redgie got blocked. Um, we didn't see him. Remember, you know, when you go from your home to the

way game is like two games in between. We didn't see him until shoot around two days later. Right, And so that was kind of a real moment where I would just I was just I was past the point of friendliness, right. I wanted to scrap like all the time, but I was uneducated, right. I wish I was able to be a better teammate to him versus being aggressive towards him, being more of a brother tour right, because

again I didn't know um. And so I had an opportunity, um to uh sit down with him, you know, shout out to the big three. It was the first time I actually had lunch with him since the time that long How long ago was this? That was two years ago? And me and him just set and had lunch together and we kind of talked things through. UM, and we're just in a better place. The one thing that has keeps getting lost in his dog that he did two

years ago. Uh, and even this doc, I'm like, damn, why the hell you know, things I'm saying about him isn't getting put into the dock. It seemed like they want to keep the Yeah, that that drift between and him. I'm super proud of where he is today. It takes a lot for a man to talk openly about his failures and his struggles and stuff like that. You know, we're all proful, you know men, And to hear him say that, um means a lot. And I'm I'm I'm proud of him from that perspective, but it's also big

of you. You know, they're kind of taking you know, you're taking a step back. It's been seventeen years removed, but trying to see, even though you were part of to see where you could have been better at two And I know Jack has done this before too, to just to kind of see like, damn, you know I could have did this better to help maybe it would

have changed this. And most people just like you know, funking it's his problem, he should have did this, But you know, to also you point the finger at yourself feeling like where you could have did better as a person to try to hopefully solve. So that's growth, and you know, obviously you know with us being a lot older, but that's I feel a different type of way man, because the same counselor. They had him saying they act they asked me to see and I wasn't doing those things.

Who at the time, I was really insensitive to what he was going through, you know what I'm saying, because we're seeing the same lady. They got us talking to the same lady. But I ain't doing the dumb ship you're doing, you know what I'm saying. They called him me crazy too, but I ain't doing the dumb ship he was he was doing, So I was kind of incensive to it too. Can we talk to the same lady? And really I feel like I was wasting my time

talking to him, you know what I'm saying. But they felt like men wrong in the same boat or something. So I'm sitting there talking to him later, and you know, after we talked to he gonna do something else crazy. I'm like, well, look man, I don't I don't know what's going on, you know what I'm saying. So I was I was kind of the same way. I was insensitive too. So before we leave this, I just want to say, both of them dudes are luckiest fun that both of you guys didn't have solid footing. It's all

I'm trying. Yes, yes, both of you guys slipped. Luckily, by the grace of God. God, let y'all slip a little bit because y'all with the motherfucker Daffy Duck. Both of them dudes like knocked their beak to the back. I gotta I got a good one off with you right about the planet. Yeah, I wouldn't tell both, especially him. Could you see Jake that slipped stopping from getting murdered.

But y'all don't realize. So what you do not see is so I had just it was a guy I don't know if it was an usher whatever that grabbed me around my neck and he choked the usher right, And so at that point, I'm in straight reaction mode, like it's all the stuff that was on the table that nobody chose to use, like the league or nobody chose to use it. They just chose to use the slide and punch, right, So I boom put him on the table, right. I turned to my left. I see

Anthony Johnson on the floor. I never even sold that her dad, dude get into it one. I see Anthony Johns on the super broken hand and I just sprint over there. Because he's standing over him. Yeah, he's standing over him. So at that point I was like, look, I'm gonna clean up everything, right, anything that comes near, I'm cleaning it up big. This twenty something jail, he's already big at the house, right down these arms. At twenty something, I remember jail. The strong motherfuck boy thing.

I think the craziest part about it bro this whole process of the craziness. They come in, they try to pepper spay us, the players, trying to take us to jail, and we got hit with every beverage at the concession that ever had in the arena about it there, you know, oddly enough, I mean, this happened seventeen years ago, but this ship kind of reared its head again in the NBA this season with spitting on people and throwing bottle

bottles at people. To be and Stephen Jackson because to me, and again, like I think fans feel like they're they can comment like they're going to the zoo, and you can poke it the like look at this as animals, And I can say and do and throw anything I want because I paid good money for this ticket. And that's the furthest thing from the truth, and I'm surprised what happened with you guys doesn't have more often because

fans are still completely out of hand. And it's crazy to me because it always seems like the league is trying to protect the fans and doesn't really give a funk about what's going on with the players. You know, it's interesting that you know, I'm sure we all about like going into opposing arena. Um it's special. Stop, I love it, right, yes, special being in that environment and people yelling and screaming. It's a balance though, right, Always tell people you treat me to what you treat me.

If if you stand in front of base things because you spin on me, I don't care where we at. You don't care in game out, game church like whatever it is, like, it's gonna, it's gonna happen. So now that you want, you want the interaction amongst players and fans. You don't fans. You do not own the players because

you pay for your ticket. That does not mean you own the players, right, And I think once they get that balance back, understand that we humans and we we have families and all that other stuff, then I fall into place where hopefully the NBA get that cleaned up in other leadues because I really feel like fans are out of hand and sometimes the fan needs to ship the ship knocked out under make him realize. You remember after that, I got traded to go to State and

we planed a utah. They got a life size cut out of me in the jail uniforms, the under the basket. The NBA didn't say nothing, then say moving than nothing. It's right there and camera view, bro. Just because of that, you know what I'm saying with them corners nigga, this nigger, nigger. This It was crazy. It was nuts. But anyway, moving on, check out check the doc Man August time Netflix. Yeah, jail Mann's opportunity to tell the full story unseen for it.

Don't miss it. But the rumors asleep looking forward to it. Yeah, moving forward, Uh seven one agency, U and T Max started talk to us how that got started? Man? It really honestly, man, Uh, they're trying to figure out what

to do with all of damn money. They still got boys, Let's do something man got damn Yeah, for real with it really and really you know you notice right, you know, it's it's a situation where in you sports man, there's a lot of falsehoods, right, and these kids opportunities dwindling based off bad information. I always tell my parents and my organizations that, look, you know, would you allow a career law and care service got to do your accounting? Hm?

Not nobody do that ship like that, right, So why are you bound people to hand to your kids and give you this information that, by the way, it don't make no sense. It may not suited to give in the first place, exactly, And to me and Matt was

actually um talking about it. And really, to be honest, jacket happened that right after George Floyd because we were talking because you heard about a lot about systemic oppression right in our in our areas, right, And what that to us, what that means is information and tools, right, the lack of information and tools. And I remember going into my wife donated some money to um a school in South Dallas and and this was like in nineteen they didn't have an operating computer in the entire school.

Team bro. And so we said, me and Matt was talking one day he caught me at the right time. I was. I had just got off a call with another agency that I was trying to spark a deal with and I was telling what I was gonna do some man, I'm in I we need to do this. And that's how it really happened. Right. We want to be leaders in the space and and and because we've been through it, right, we understand it the highest level, at the highest level, and not only the good part

about it, but also the bad parts about it. Right, like the struggle, right, what that is, and the struggle is what makes us who we are. And so you know the idea of of men Matt getting together working on Mike vic now to uh, well Mike get to get to get the contract back in brothers and we get football side, that would be dope. Yeah, that'll be really dopey. Have you got So is it officially? Is it started yet or you guys still in the process

of So it's official now? It was official. Now. We went through almost a three month process of negotiations with a bunch of different agencies. But we realized that they basically wanted us to work for him and do the same work, so we might as well funded ourselves and owning ourselves, um and put our own DNA and I bring old blood into it. So we're super excited about it. Man um um. You know it's a special air right now with n I L stuff going on. Shout out

to you know whoever had hands in on that. Now these kids can make some money off their likeness. Not just the schools. I wanted to ask. I mean, also, you have your beautiful facility out there in Dallas. You throw the End of the Summer and me throw a handful of tournaments. But you have the End of the Summer tournament that's coming up in a couple of weeks that we'll be at for the second time. But how did that come about too? Because you have a beautiful facility,

I know, you know, rest in peace. Kobe, he was doing the mamba stuff out here and he started to kind of capitalize on that, and I went to Dallas. I'm just like, oh, ship, jail, ship is incredible. Have you been to this ship out there? No? But I I was. I was when he first bought the land, like he was. I was talking to him going all that time. He had so many pitches. Talk to us how that went. Because I know that the city helped you do it, correct, Yeah, help help helped support it.

But talk to us how that process went because I think it's beautiful. I mean, you have a U basketball your daughters, and you have to have volleyball. You have kind of just a whole year round facility. That's absolutely beautiful. Yeah, shout out Asia, She's she's been, she's my daughter. Is actually the reason why the facility happened. We moved to Texas, uh seven years ago, eight years ago something like that.

Maybe my wife probably nine years ago. But um, long story short, Um, we had to take her to different places to get all the services, and only services I knew was out of one building as a pro right, So that was the idea of building it. Obviously Dallas has a ton of different facilities, you know, but none of them was built like that. Still going to stop shot right, one stop shot. Um. It was one of the hardest things I've ever did in my life. Bro to be honest. Um, you know, so times, you know,

society reminds you, um on what's going on. The builder that built that facility had just built another one. Literally walked off that site to my site to start building. And it was two owners in the previous facility. That one was did hotels, one day restaurants, um and so he brought a banking company and we brought to banking institutions with him, and they funded it. When they came to me like I'm career sports, got right, prime, real estate,

balance sheet, everything, I couldn't get a loan. Really, I end up building like they went through the whole dog and ponies. And this is why I knew this was God's will and God's plan, because other doors kept opening, and so I ended up building that facility myself cash right, So FOURT team nobody never builds you know you know you too, that's yeah, And it was one of those things, is bro wave. Just I knew it was God's will because now I was leading into other things rather seven

one or whethers. You know, we're doing filming about to start telling stories and in the UTH sports space too. So UM, ultimately it's a legacy project for me. Um. We had guys like Kay Cunningham is out of my program, um r J Hampton who's drafted last year, UM, Terris Maxie, Jamia's Ramsey Drew Timmy at Gonzaga. UM tell me, yeah, we have a ton of ton of players out of there,

Sam Williams and um. So it's really one of those things where I want to look back, um at the impact that we've had, not only on the surface, but away from the service because we take kids out to the communities, bringing truckloads of food, donate money to schools, you know, kind of the whole thing. And we're gonna do these and other places back in my hometown, working to deal with in Columbia, South Carolina, we're gonna build

one and also one uh in Buffalo. So looking at you know, that's the space I want to be in, very passionate about it. Give some of these kids an opportunity, um that I had. Well, it's just the ship we wish we had when we were younger, you know. I mean we're playing outside or playing in these dusty gyms, and I mean you have a stead of our facility. Like you said, it's a one stop shop with basketball, volleyball.

You got the soccer field in the back, you got the weight room, you got the training, you got everything. So it's a beautiful thing. I just don't give us no fucking eight AI end games, bro coming all the way from don't give us that motherfucking We're gonna be all right. I got you, bro, Hey talked to us about your upbringing, Um, South Carolina? What was like when did you find basketball family dynamic? You know, I think we all have, you know, different stories when it comes

to our upbringing. Um, South Carolina's Columbia in particular. Um, it took a community to raise me right. Didn't know my father right until I was thirty. Um, you know my high school coast George Glenn shout out to him, Old Claire High School, entire community out of metro. Um, the city. I really took the time with me, remember, Um, you know, I was, I was, I was, I was. The streets is all we know is in our inner city areas, right, and that is those are the leaders

for us in many ways. And sometimes the O G s uh they do it right, sometimes they do it wrong. Mind did it right right? When they started seeing me progressed as an athlete, they started pushing me to the side, like, right, you can't you can't be out it, but you need to go over here. Remember at the games that you know, they said, if you go and you and you you you hit your grades in school and you hit these numbers on the court, we're gonna we're gonna set you up.

It's a popular maximum trunks. They got polos, Jordan's and everything, and they're waiting on me right and and it kept me motivated to do the right thing right because I know I felt the love and support. Um. And it definitely took a community to raise me. My mother did a phenomenal job. But it's just certain things that a mother can't do much right by herself. Um. And so you know, the city has been just just been phenomenal to me. Man. And Um, you know, I gotta say

this to um. Some of my old gs, Bernard Pig, Richard Um, all those guys, Junior Lor poo a, raoms, guys that really had hands in on my development. Still, when did you find the game of basketball? Man? I got I must have. I don't know about you. I didn't really start playing it to my freshman year. I was like six to you know, my freshman year I went from like six to to six eleven and three months. Damn, what were the knees feeling like I had to be braced?

Four is Gum saying, yeah, real story, get slaughter. All that kicking the worst, wasn't it? At one time, man, I was playing football and then I grew to six, six ten, six eleven, and my my junior varsity coaches like brot, listen, You're don't need to make a career change. And I was like okay, and uh shout out to Louis dreer Um, who was really the architect. Remember having to take dance classes one two out every practice holding

his hand right one to one to Um. He really taught me a lot, and the coach, George Glynn really kind of put it over the top with Um becoming a true father figure that had rules and regulations to how we do that, do the ship every day. I grew six inches from freshman year of the tank grave y'all six ft. Going into my abhomore year, I walked in at six six and it was similar, but this was trials. I was out there running routes for football season ain't started yet and I'm trying to try out

and go play football as a receiver. And during probably my second round, I seen my coach and my mom and my uncle walking towards the field. You know, my mind back then, I'm thinking somebody got killed in my family, something bad that happened. They are take the cleats off, all that ship off, you ain't doing that. You got you you don't see what you're going to basketball, but we see it. I'm like, man, I can do both. I'm diance hat as I can do both. Now I

come to your ass out. So that was similar to me. They saw something to me that out of saying myself at that time, he was probably scared to get hit anyway, Huh. He would have been scared to get hit, and I was, I was the cleanest out there, and I think they didn't like that. You know, I was gonna be clean, fresh, clean, you know what I'm saying. Do yeah, you know, don'pe boing back then every time? Who did you mind your game? After?

And I don't know, man, I'm you know, honestly, um Kim Elijah was probably my favorite the dream I remember first. I remember my first first time checking him. Brad was I was trying to hold on for dear life right though he was, he was the strongest, most agile. I'm not even sure why when people talk about greatest centers ever, his name does not pop up. He could arguably beating number one, arguably be number one on both sides of the court. He dominated right the all time leading shot

blocker in the business. Footwork was impeccable. I know why because he was Muslim us and you're gonna hear about it and the doctor's coming out about him. Um. They told him that he had a conversation with with David Stern and if you notice his name wasn't do up Black.

We don't talk like. We don't hear much now, even after he won the championships, and they don't talk about it when they talk about the Hall of Fame players because he had a riff with David Stern about David Stern told me, if he publicized that as much as he did, that he wouldn't get the look that he was supposed to get it. And that's why you never hear about it. It's crazy. He used to get busy. He's the fast all the time. He won two championships faster,

that's crazy. Huh. What what stands out to you? Obviously you get a late start, but once you get going, you know this is what you're supposed to be doing. What? What? What? What do you remember the most about your high school playing days? He was the biggest person in our class and thought he was on steroids or some ship. Tim like I remember saying Leicester earl. I remember seeing those they weren't bigger than you not. I don't know, but

I was. I was stilling thought. But but I remember I remember seeing Tim Thomas and I was like because I heard a lot about him, and I was like, damn, this my like to thirty and guards playing like a guarden garden. But you wouldn't understand like back then we

didn't know about the motherfucker too. We actually saw them face to face like you would hear or you might be able to read about them in a little magazine, but I wasn't reading, Like you didn't know about who you was going up against until he was warming up or seeing him at the tournament. Yeah. We actually the first time I sold him, um was that a B C D. And it was like I was like, damn, he he is advertised, he can go. And that was I think my real first AU experience was probably going

to Nike All America. I wasn't necessary games. It was the camps where I remember Gelnnie McCoy was there. Um it was Steph Garnett and I was like, holy just the class before us. That was like damn, Like I ain't never Bro. I'd never been outside of my city at that point, so it's in Chicago. I'm like, damn, bro, I need to I need to go get my ship together like these boys can play. That was like the first time I knew that I had to put in some work because there was some real dogs, like were

we from you know, we're killing in our neighborhoods. Then that's how measurements stick, right, right? Did you get outside of your neighborhood and you realize that you damn you, you really can't compete now unless you go put in some work. And so seeing those boys really inspired me. Man And and that was kind of like the kicker for me when it came to a U. Who so who who is? I mean, obviously I know your draft class,

but who are some of that the top cats? And during AU during that run for you, could you guys are the same year right fails, Cold Cold Baby, Shanne Cotton Shake Cotton, Baron, Davis, Baron Dame was how that too, but he was younger than us. Um Corey Benjamin for Benjamin Why, I went for Walton Richard Richard Hamilton's head colder, but Ronnie at the top was him Ronnie Fields, Kobe and Tim Toomer maybe too. My baby is at the top.

Felipe Lopez older, he was the show, older than everybody now he was he was ninety five, if I'm not mistaken. So what went into your decision, um to let you know you were ready to make the job, skip college and make that job to the pro Honestly, I didn't.

I didn't know. I knew I wasn't physically ready. I went to jail um my my senior year on a statutory rate um charge um possible charge at the time, I didn't know, which I think is important, especially for the youth to understand this is that every state has a legal age limit to have consensual consensual sex. Right now, this girl I had been with for two years, my girlfriend, girl, it's my girl girl right she was chillied on the

team and everything. I had not met her, pops crazy thinking two years, I met mom, been over the house, um sisters everything known. Story short. He comes home, I'm over at the house, didn't catch us doing anything, just caught me in the room. He hits her. I hit him. Uh, stayed with the girl to the police game. He foul um a charge of me and it became one of those situations where we was trying to blow that ship up,

especially be in the South Carolina. And if you got to know the history, like the Confederate flag was just recently taken off the stay house, right, that was a real thing. Um, where you grew up not understanding that you can even date outside of your race, Like I didn't even know I could. It was even cool until ninety s when I got drafted to do so. Right.

And so if you living you're living in that ronment, you're going through a situation where now, um, at the time, I was number one player in the country, rights, I'm in I'm in jail, and they're talking about giving me ten years, right, and so you know, I go through that whole process get reinstated. I finally get reinstated, um, hyper extend. I need the first game back with all Patino, NBA scouts, everything, um, and the Patino had a meeting

with us, me and my mom in my house. He said, look, we love to have you, we canna be good with you without you, but you probably go bro. Where was he at at that time, Kentucky though, right, And so that was like the moment where I knew, he said, Look, you know, you know, I know you're probably gonna listed between tenth and seventeen. You're never gonna fall beyond seventeen. At that point, I was so worn out, bro, And

I've seen opportunities starting to drift a little bit. Um and you know, the whole idea of going to jail and being heard and now people starting to question, you know, should I even be a pro? Said let me go, Let me go and make this money. I knew that my determination and my mindset was built for physically. I knew I wasn't I was only like two and a seventeen pounds or something like that. Um, But that was that was that was a decided factor. To be honest.

I got to ask you one question, though, I shouldn't want a VP, right McDonald's. I just wanted all the top players, you know, I just want to have from on top. You know, I started five. I think I think we had one of the best starting five Evan McDonald's game history, Me and you, cold, Tim and Tim Thomas. We couldn't added real Hampton, power and better, but Holloway with me and you, she Holloway, Kobe and Tim Thomas.

But you remember they didn't start me because remember I was in the hospital the whole week, right right, what's what's the what's the big fella? Jason Carya not went to North Carolina Hathaway, Russian by Sale after them all. Yeah, yeah, yeah, he had to play the game to play the game. Yeah, yeah, it was the dope. It's projected dope start. I didn't start because I didn't make any thing with the one

practice and like the altitudo was too much. Yeah. Now, obviously did you briefly dabbled if you thought about college, who were something that the schools you thought about it was? It was dound to UM, Kentucky, Maryland, Maryland was closely used. Joe Smith. He was recruiting me to go to Maryland, and that was one of my favorite players in college. Shut up. He was a mom'star Um South Carolina where I'm from. Clemson obviously been in South Carolina in Ohio state, UM.

But if I don't went to school, it would have been to Kentucky because Kentucky had the pedigree to win a national championships and putting players in the pros. He decided to make the jump. You the seventeen pick for the Portland Trail players. How come you didn't go to the draft? Honestly, man, Um, you know back then when you made the decision to go pro, you forfeited your cole eligibility completely. So if I don't get drafted, then

I gotta go find a job, right. And so the nervousness coming off all the stuff that I went through my senior year, I was just like, bro, I need to be I need to be home. I need to be around people that that no mean that understand me, you have that support me. And so I just decided to stay and get a ballroom. Um. Shout out to r and tell him who stood who stood beside me

the entire time? Who kept me calm? I knew back then as a seventeen year I wasn't the easiest person to keep calm, you know back then, But he became like a pop to me. Man, So Um, you know he understand how much he means to me and in my entire career. I mean talking about that draft, that's one of arguably the best draft classes, on one of them ever. Uh. Kobe iverson Ray Island, stuff on mar Burt, Steve Nash, Marcus can be uh Antoine Walker, M sharif

A do rahim yourself. Um, so that experience from high school, skipping college, jumping to the pros but then back and then people don't understand like there was real o g s and real grown men back in the league back in the day, like the real Vets. So what was your experience like transitioning? Like you said, you may not have been ready physically, you made the jump, you made it. What was it like early on in your career because you didn't get a chance to really play early on

and experience though? Yeah, man, uh, the late great Cliff Robinson to rest in peace. Gary Trent, I mean Gary Trent was the first one. He came and got me from the airport. Um taught me a lot of things. Um she obviously Sabonis and the and the team's kind of change, you know year over year, Debatlers Strom, Scottie Pippen,

I mean just kept going. Um. I was able to take a lot of different ingredients from a lot of a lot of players with this Kenny Anderson, dam Sodermar Gray, Anthony, Brian Grant, Um bondsy Wells and they see all Man j R. Roder. Um, it just kept going um on and on, and it was really honestly for me, it was the best place for me because it was a one sports town city. But I didn't have the pressure

of a big city, right. They grew me as if as if it was college, one on one, right, and so every year I was able to kind of grow and mature a little bit more. I remember Rick carl I remember him coming to my house. People don't know about this, but I was so salty because Gardnett and Cole was getting an opportunity and I wasn't. And back then that was when high school to the pros just started. So the micro scope was like, you know, bearing down

on me. And you know people are say, oh, well he's a bus you know, he couldn't not knowing that I just wasn't getting the opportunity. And remember Rick carl Out coming to my house and I wouldn't because I stopped going to the games. This is your first year. So I was like, you know what, I ain't playing, I ain't coming, ain't coming. So I remember talking to him out here coming house. I put the chain on the door and talked to him through this. He was

assistant coach. Carlson was the head coach. Um, But he was the one that kind of walked me through this thing, man, and became the guy that was just assigned to me to make sure that I, you know, that I made the right moves and man, and when I look back at this now, you know, it wasn't the transition wasn't as tough physically as it was mentally. Absolutely, what was it? What was the turning point? When did you start getting some time on the court with season? Was that for you? Man?

I went for I went four years of the roller coaster up and down, But when I knew my third year probably was when I knew because I started out playing guys that were playing in front of me like I was piste off all the time because at the time Mike Dunleavy was making things incredibly hard for me. Right, you know, I'm always there before there after you know,

I ain't played in the first two quarters. Put me in the game in the third quarter for two minutes, you know, yeah, right, and so um that just pissed me off and I just could to work harder. I knew planning against sheet in them every single day in practice. That's back then when we had to practice too but it was the real. It was the real, you know. It wasn't no rest days, wasn't none of that stuff. It was like he was practicing when you wasn't playing.

And it prepared me right away. And I knew, you know, as going into my fourth year um which is old Banana and the tail Pipe, I was a free agent and decided to not to take a starting role either with Orlando or Chicago and went back to Portland's. We had just lost in the conference finals against the Lakers. I said, well, we should we got a chance to win it all. I'm gonna go back and then contribute and it just didn't work out. That work out. Talk to us about that experience with the Lakers of two

thousand Lakers come down the game seven? What was that series? Like? Man, listen,

I probably cried maybe twenty times in my life. Bro had some big shots for this is your first real taste of the NBA playoffs, right, so you made the playoffs every year, but we're in the conference for so that was the That was the I went back for that reason and we were up fifth I think fifteen, and like the stable center emptying out me and Bonds on the bench, talking about when we're about to do with you know, without with our bonus are NBA Finals

bonus checks and all this stuff, and then I think Brian Shaw banked in fucking three and it was started r started to run Bro And it was just to me, it was just mismanagement of the team. Right, you play these you play the guys through the process of this run, and they make this run to you sub them right with guys that ain't been playing right. And so it's just one of those things where, um, A lot of things went into us losing that game, but that was the one that I was. I was remember sitting on

the bench. I told Bonds, I said, brother, this is it. I ain't coming back, tears in my eyes, everything said. But I'm going somewhere else, I said, because you know this time is up. But that was the one that really hurt us because that team was probably on paper, the most talented team in the league. Bright We had Steve Smith, Scottie Pippen, Brian Grant, she Wallace, a bonus BONDSI you me, uh, Damon Sodemer Uh he's super DP. It's no way in here. We shouldn't won the championship.

One of the best teams never to win it. What was that fourth quarter? Like the one that got away from the Avacota, Bro, one of the twenty times that I've cried in my life, I tell you, I remember. I remember sitting on the bench literally tears coming out of my eyes because you put so much into it, Um, And as a young player, you know you I knew

that these opportunities don't come around. You know, I'm just hearing all the O g s talk about it and have an opportunity to to ship to play in the NBA finals, Bro, like you grew up watching that, the Jordan's, the you know, the Magics, the Isaiah Thomas says, the lad Birds, And it was just it was it was a hard pill to swallow. But the good part about it helped me understand what it took to be a

pro and to have the opportunity to get there. I mean, looking back on it now, how dynamic were Kobe and Shock And that was good dal On on the two shots to hit at the answer, that was great defense to He's still draining, man, you know obviously Kobe, you know, I mean, you know, you'll know how we feel about him. Um,

He's one of the greatest. I think, to me, he's more closer to Mic than anybody everybody's and he is he is he was as a he had a dog mentality that I was about winning, winning, winning, right, Shock. People don't realize how big Shock is, Bro. I mean like it's like he was playing with like a little tips ball all the time in his hand because he was so big. But he he just changed the game, Bro, And many times the league didn't know how to officiate shot right. I mean, he was just that, he was

that agile he was. I don't know if we ever see a specimen of a player like that ever again a lot, because the game has changed so much and he's incredible. Summer of two thousand, You're traded to Indiana for Dale Davis kind of understanding that the business side

of it, what was that like for you? And I remember I remember going into uh the Champs downtown and I'm talking about these damn people were bad because they just came out from finals appearance and they traded you know, Dale, which is a fan favorite, for basically an unknown And so I was challenging for me to hear people talk about that in a in a bitter way, right um, and obviously how people felt about Reggie and him winning the championship, it was it was difficult, But Reggie mille

Is is one of my favorite teammates of all time because he is he's he's a winner, right, He's a winner in every aspect of the word. And he could have easily debt at that trade easily trade for him, trade me, He's like nah, bringing the young boy. I remember remember having the conversation. He said, I'm gonna let you be whatever you want to be as long as you worked for He did the same for me. Reggie did the same for me. Reggie is unbelievable, bro. He

meant so much too to me in my career. And that's why that that brawl situation, I probably wanted to win it more for him than it was for myself. Right well, I think I think we all did because, like it, just a touch on what he said. They brought me in the next year, the year Reggie was retiring, and Reggie was basically stamping me as the person to fill in when he needs you know what I'm saying.

So that year was especial for all of us, for Reggie, you know what, I mean, because we knew we had the team, you know what I mean, and to not do it wasn't It was a letdown. Even though we came back and still far in the playoffs. It was let down for all of us because we wanted to do it so bad. For Reggie, I mean, it was crazy too that Reggie probably that situation was so bad that it forced him to retire. Reggie had probably two more years and really just a lot on that mental side.

So you're coming into Antiana, are you you get the starting role or how does that? How does that work out? I came in right away, started one, most improved right away. I was fully prepared by all the work. Um an education I took from all the players in Portland. Um so I was. I was like, with it ain't nobody I'm gonna see in front of me. That's been the ones that I've been playing practice against every day in practice, reminding people what the power forward game was, liking who

was around back then? This is Duncan, kg Webber, Rashid, a young Dirk, a young you. That's fact when power forwards were a pivotal part of a team. Man. I remember, you know, like every night it was something like I remember every time I thought about like what I needed to eat because I got KG and I'm coming in town. I got dirt, I got she see what sea where it was a monster. Um, people don't understand how good

see where Man it was a killer. He was a killer, bro, and he was and he had everything man and um. It forced you to be the best version of yourself almost every night. And even like scenarios where I mean back then it was a grind. I mean, bro, you was like that post was a grind. I mean Ben Wallace and those guys, I mean theo Radlof and those guys, I mean her Oak was still in the league. But the game went through the post. Back then to the post. It had to test the post for any outside shots

going up inside out with a little back brace. I had like a little like still plate that's to put in the people always complain about it because I always like to spend a ball phone saying like there's like that was us old back plate back there. But the game was different bright it was. It was there was a brind and I think the competitive nature where um kind of like the Pistons Pacer scenario. People really funk with each other, but on the court it was either

you or me. It's a different league, different league, Bro, what no eight man call me, call me hi, I'm meeting none of that. We all in the court. So what was it like coming into that situation starting most improved player? You got a starting to put the ingredients together, you know, after them going to the finals the year before the starting not not starting over, but trying to regain that. What was it like building that team back

up what they It started with Isaiah Thomas. Um. I gotta shout him out to Zeke meant so much to me man and miss Thomas for all the meals that she cooked at our house. Um. He just always have us over talking about like history. Um. So he started the confidence in myself out Harrington, Jonathan Vendor, Jeff Foster, Um, and then Rick Carlisle came in and was able to put the ice in on the cake when we knew that we were ready to compete. And then obviously getting

Jack um Ron Um Brad Miller. That was one of the worst things that the Pacers ever did was trade Brad Miller. Um. That was like my ace down there. Um, and we just knew Bro like you know, we hadn't been through it. Jack hadn't already won the championship with San Antonio. He knew exactly what it was. Well, people don't realize we had a different level of grit. Yes, could be taught. It was like, bro, we had all been through something. Oh man it was and it was

so funny man that, um, we were so tight. I remember, I remember, I gotta tell the story. Jack. I remember you got into it at the at the strip club. And so like I get a call from my nanny. It's like with two or three o'clock in the molock in the morning, like she's like, Jack dead. I said, what what you mean? It's like Jackson, he's dead. That's like he's at the hospital. So I'm a guy who told me what hospital was. So I rushed to the hospital. No, no, no,

you met this. No no, you're skipping the whole part at the gas station. We met at the gas station right up the street from the club. First. The reason why I went to the hospital be remember I'm ready to can I'm ready to hurt somebody out of it. I didn't got back on and shake back. My lips are torn, teeth going everything I'm mad as him. Jam. I'm like, man, we gotta find out way they go Jackson jack I'm going I'm with all that. Bro, Listen, you got to go to the hospital. Because he was

looking at my mom to my team was gone. He's like, and that's why I went to the hospital. As soon as you're saying that, my sides ends and started her because I all everything came down and I realized, and here the reason why I went to the hospital. You don't remember that. You came to the gas station, bro, like a couple of blocks up and you told me, like, no, bro, you have to go to the hospital. Bro. Listen, his face didn't even look real, bro, Like I remember seeing him.

I don't know if remember this. I first walked up, I just stopped. Remember I remember where I walked up, and so I thought it was in the hospital, but I guess it was at the gas station. And I looked in his face as pauls we gotta go get I said, like this your face, bro, His lips were so big, bro, And it was like one of those situations where like I knew he knew I was down for him, like whatever, but they stayed right there. I

have to have plastic surgery on my lips. My lips were so swollen that they couldn't know them because my lip was so big, and they would put down station, they would have burst him real called loud my wife at the town. They all stood right there and watched me have plastic surgery Bro for two hours. It was so bad, like almost forgot that I was a professional athlete, like we wanted to actually remember. I said, but first, we're gonna need to take you to the hospital. First,

you're gonna kill everybody. It was hot dog. Everybody was mad, you know what I'm saying. But how it went down because I had nothing to do it. It was me again helping out one of my teammates, you know what I'm saying, and me getting caught caught up, caught up in it. But to what he's saying, like they really wrote for me, Bro, because like I said, they didn't have to come to the hospital, you know what I'm saying. They stood there with me the whole time, and to

a center and to the surgeon time. And I remember Bro when when he when he did the last stitch, because I was holding Rick call out hand and n at the hand the whole time squeezing because I had to fight the paint. He cut the last stitch and he put his hand on my chance and say I'm done. I told him, I say, and I went straight to sleep. I slept through X rays. I don't remember nothing. That that's to being home. That that that's when the night

baron called me. And that's a whole another story. But lucky, I gave you that pretty boy myth to get your your looks. Yeah, I hit that every day year, saying but if you come closer to my lips and I actually you would be like, man ain't goddamn. I don't know how you survived that. Before we go on, you mentioned the name that I don't think people understand how good he was too because he was young. How good with Jonathan Bender? We stayed right by each other, so

we talked about this all the time. John de Bender, he was set for talk. Can you compare him to anybody's game or what there was no one like him? How would you compare Jonathan to I would say he was a guard version of stroke mouth swift with handles and a three point ball and all that. We just say. I think athleticism. Yeah, but his game was significantly different because he can handle That's what I'm saying, shoot threes and all that that he can shoot it from deep.

You know, he just there's a career cut short because his knee. This is kind of auth thing. He's playing too many games and came in beat up. But I mean, that kid, if he had an opportunity, if it's this time, because he was a stretch four before stretch man, he wasn't even a stretch four though he wouldn't practice for thirty days. Hen come to practice one day and do something crazy and facts everybody like that's when he went practicing. All that. Keep in mind, heredcome practice one day and

don't go somebody to do something crazy. Brother, Like, bro, this motherfucking healthy, it's over because he played the two three. He never he never played the four and went to the forest. We stayed because I stayed right across the state from jail, stayed around corners. We all stayed close to each other. But Jonathan Bender dog was so special. But as one player, if he could have stayed healthy, Bro, what if I just think he was on the team that we had just matter we had him in the

lineup right, That's what I'm saying. So, oh four, you guys reached the conference finals against Detroit. Uh talked to us about that series. That was jailball man. It was. It was probably one of the most physical series I've ever been involved with. Right, you knew what you were getting from the Pistons, right, right, So much respect for

those guys. She been wiless, ripped chumps, Tayshawn Uh, Larry Brown, Um, they were just you know, we knew that it was the marginal air was was this was this slim and and you know it's funny it didn't show up in the day. I actually got taken out of the dog being talked about the reason that they were able to beat us because they were They were tight. They were more tight than we were, right, And so when you have a divide between me and Ron sometimes Jack, you

know mad with Ron or you know mal jamaal. You know, it was a lot of different things elements going on. We were able to come and get the collectively as a team Indiana because we loved playing basketball, right, but to win it all I love playing basketball, ain't gonna ain't gonna do it. And so you know, we we ran up on a Pistons team um that was a little bit more uh together, connected, didn't have as much

talent that we had. They had a out of talent um, but they were just were a lot more connected than were when you tried. You tried that the year because that was the year before I got there, wheny'all lost to them in the in the East Conference finals. But when the year I come, when the year I came, next year, you made it a point. You tried your best to keep everybody together, going out to eat and

doing stuff wrong. Was never around, but you tried. But as a quarter team, we were all together, you know, so we went everywhere together. But we did a lot. I mean, you know, you know, our wives, girls, all that stuff. We you know, those are the things that I started to kind of pick up little things right that I noticed the year before that. You know, I don't know if we thought that we were good enough

to win. We knew we were talented. We looked up and we had the best record in the league, and when the conference finals and it's like, damn, what we're here, and then when they beat us, you know, it was mistakes that we made, right, all of us. We made mistakes and then coming into the next year and we got Jack, we was like, should we gonna come, We're gonna come back to camp early. Time to go. It's time to go. And you know, that's the most disappointed

because we probably should have one made to the championship. So, Jack, what's it like for you? Not really understanding what you were walking into, but ready to go. You know, the team that's coming off the conference finals, you could you're a key piece coming in that next year. What to like for you? It was difficult because I didn't understand the magnitude of robbery with with them in Detroit. You know what I'm saying. I knew that I knew Jail,

you know what I'm saying. And like I said, the first day that he embraced me, came to me, made me feel comfortable and and Reggie speaking U from itself, I was already comfortably. I knew a lot of people there, but I did not know the magnitude of the beef with with the Pistons. But I felt as soon as we walked in the arena the day of Braul happened, I felt that you like you can feel attention in there, But I felt the same way they felt, you know,

me going to this team that's a player away. You know what I'm saying, piece, And I knew I was gonna be a big piece. And like we fo folks on championship, you know what I'm saying. The um And Mike Brown was my coach of San Antonio won the championship, so he was assistant coached there at the time. So I my Mond was taking championship the whole time. Just

play my point and do what I can. I know it's in a serious conversation, but any funny practice stories with yourself, Ron with you many remember Danny Granger and then uh darn, I remember, like Ron is gonna get he leaving his house in the uniform. It's on the dock. But I remember we we're were on, We're on it. He getting mad, everybody getting mad. Like Jamal Tenson. He

takes nothing serious. He's laughing at everything. Right, So he's about to start practice, bringing in one, two, three two doors about open Ron coming there with some Air Force ones on with some church docks with his uniform already on. And when I say he dominates practice, bro dominated practice. And that's not something needs to do. Not that warming up just short right for practice time in his practice uniform.

He did stuff like that a lot. But I'm sure that's a part of the frustration because when he's locked in, you see his greatness and how integral he could be too. When the Champions, he was just so much stronger and bigger than any other player that's gonna play at this position. Um, he I'm not sure if he knew how good he was, like he he clearly and to this very moment, is the hardest working player I've ever been around now far, and it's not even close. He used to get on

after the game. He used to get on. He'll play thirty eight party minutes. He's gonna get on the treadmill for another thirty after games. Yeah, he going like that. Basketball was his. To me, I felt like it was a safe place, right and he people that was playing against him was scared of him. Terrified bro Like we like we came around you guard him like we knew with Ron over that garden him and then we got Jack, so we had a dynamic defensively that it was just hard.

It was anywhere at him at the four. And Jeff Foster was a great defense too. He was shutting it down. You get past me and are you gotta do? And that's back where you would lay motherfucker's down for a little bit, comes of the whole and knock them down and not get kicked out the game and to spend it for a week. So, uh, how me and Jack come into contact is in oh seven you you spoke on trying to hold things together. Letus hold it together.

We got enough talent, We got what it takes. Pieces start falling off here and there, Jack and Al come to Golden State. You guys get done leaving Murphy And what was that like to you? Whether it to sign like okay, they gave up or what was your thinking that because of that? But I'm just saying, but I'm just saying, like as the All Star player and team still like what you're thinking, like, damn these motherfucker's and

gave up or that? What was your thought process? They're having a choice, they had to do that, bro it was it was. It was tough. I knew when they brought in and this is no shot to the other players they brought in, but they brought in players that are used to winning, right, have experience with winning with players who've never been to the playoffs before. So and we're still dealing with this the like like it was

still a real thing. Uh. It did not help with the shootout that rides a year right after the brawl. So we're still dealing with the brawl. But votation and all that. People who don't know the whole story. So when they're backtelling when Jack's lips full up, like this is the shootout at the strip club, right, yes, yes, when I got hit by a car. Yeah, but then and then also the shootout with with Jamal that was after. That was after the trade. That was the same guys,

but that was after we left. Because when mc corky was in the car with Room, yes, the same dude that shout they didn't have something. This is nothing. This is how a great team that he was. He made sure that if he got a gun license, the whole team they came to my house, remember, and we all

got our gun license together. So the whole team got guns and we registered though right legal, We all legal, right so bound, So we go it's a training camp, were going to strip club and men are actually leaving, you know what I'm saying, because it time to go home. We've been out enough, and some guys something happened with Jama tend in the club where I had to end up going back and find my gun to get hit by a car. Right, all that happened, you make it

seem like that's just some little ship. I mean, yeah, you know, it's it's a big story, you know what I'm saying. But maybe we'll do that doctor about that. But so that was the year after the brawl. So during that time before that happened, we were all. I was on probation. She was on probation for the ball.

Oh yeah, we always on probation for the brawl. So that made me vio late, you know what I'm saying, probation And so my two years there, I get in the brawl, then I getting the shootout of stip Clubs. So Danny watch like god damn Al just stuck in the middle of it because I didn't do nothing to nobody. It was right after he just bought a house. But listen, it was right after the team just had a meat we had traded Kimp just had to beat about eight. Y'all,

chill out, don't do this, don't go nowhere. Nothing in the whole team. We had traded Kim to go this rip club, the whole team. And like I said, once that happened, I remember, you know, two days after I'm trying to show up the practice, They're like, man, hell no, I mean, look at your going your ass home. But then the whole time they're trying to figure up a trade. You know what I'm saying. I had nothing to do

with it. I don't even know if they talk to you about it, but I knew they had a trade in the work says like, okay, just enough it just know we gott we gotta get a get this stuff cloud from over us and make it with some type of moves. So they had to do. I don't blame Donnie Washing. They still behind us doing everything though, you know what I'm saying, But I'm just too much. So yeah,

they held too much. I think I think it was it was consecutive years, you know, we had to deal with you know, it was literally three straight years of always something. El was like the situation of Ron retiring to rap, you know, the rap thing and Source Awards, Soorce Awards and all, and they were just always consistently something and they were trying to hold on because they

felt like we can win the championship at it. And then when you start having shootout over with I don't need to laugh, but it's crazy to think in the NBA, motherfucker's just heaven. This is not a shoot around. Out guard your grill. It's not shooting around. So Jack and Alive. You hang around a couple more years, you make a few stops towards the end of your career. Um, what is that like? You know what I mean? You hit Miami, you hit Boston, you hit Phoenix, you end in Golden State.

But what's those those final years like and what's your mental like at that time? Well, it really started, um Again, Like like you said earlier, I don't really speak a lot about a lot of things. I kind of sit in my own element. Um. I end up tear mom and had a slight tear momaniscus. Um. What year was that? This was right the year after the brawl, maybe the year after the year after that. I was shortly after and it was not diagnosed correctly, if you know what

I'm saying. Um, And that was kind of like the really the time where I felt like things were different with me physically Um, I end up doing it again. So back then, like, aren't used to aren't telling My agent used to have me send every you know, m R I took. I had sent it to him. So I ended up you know, taking another one and show that I ended up tearing it twice before it was

diagnosed the first time. People don't people don't even know that. Um. And so my relationships um in the space and again I say this, and I say this respectfully because I absolutely love the Simon family that owns the Pacers. I love Indianapolis. Right, they gave me an opportunity to do things that is generational for my family, right, no question, right that relationhip. I'm still a little bit salty that the relationship is strained a little bit because of the brawl.

But um, that situation was not handled right, and I had to do something different from my mental health and stability because I was salty. Right, we had trade everybody. I'm out there, I'm by myself and trying to do you know, do all. I can't even have a chance to win the game, right, went from being the best team in the league one of the best teams in the league too, at the bottom of trying to make the playoffs, and so I knew from a respectful standpoint

that my time was up. They had a young Danny Granger you know, in Wing ready to go, and I said, I went to them and said, look, you know, this relationship is is is reached, this expliration and I just need to go somewhere else. End up going to Toronto for a couple of months to get to Miami. UM playing with d Wade was was was fun. Um Obviously d Wade is d Wade learned a lot from him, UM KG and those guys. That probably was my hardest two years of my career because um one, my knee

was still bothering me a lot. Um. It just wasn't a good fit, right, it was. It wasn't a good fit for me. Um. I don't know if I was a good fit for doc um, but we had an incredible team. I had a good time, you know with those guys. But it just, you know, I believe that I I was meant to go there because of my daughter. Right if we if I don't go to Boston, we don't find the leak in our heart. Right And so that is to me, that was God's will and plan for me to go there because they had the best

children's hospital in the world in Boston. So end up spending there for two years. Cold calls me, Um, I don't know how. I don't know how you found out I was having some issues with my knee and he said, man, we gotta check out author con treatment in Germany. So we end up going to Germany. At the time, I was I was so mentally out of it. I was just trying to finish my career on my feet that right, and end up going to Phoenix no expectations. Had a

good time with them, and then Golden State. Obviously we know we all know what that city is and what was that young team like, because you got a glimpse on your way out of what was coming like right before that dynasty started making their run. You were around that young team with coach Jackson, right, what was that team like that? Dynamical and clay and direct. It was rare bro where you know in our league, you know money is king, right, you know, people see contracts coming up.

It was strange because all of those guys came in together right a year or two apart. Um. They were like this coach Jackson, you know, Mark Jackson did a phenomenal job, but right away they work ethic. I'm like watching Steph and Clay before and at the games. I remember watching steps shoot him and Clay to shooting and

if it hit the rim, it didn't count. Right, they're shooting a hundred threes right, And so when people seeing games, all you hear they does that ship like makes to hit the rim, don't care if he hit the rim and doesn't tell her free throw games like that, But

motherfucking three point shooting. That's crazy. But it's crazy. And then you're with young Draymond and you know, I remember, I remember having a conversation with Steph and and and Steph can voucher that I said, Bro, I said, if you lead this team, bro, are you're gonna win m v P and y'all gonna win it all? I told, I told class of Clay, I think you're the best two way player in the game right now, Bro, unreal. People talk about the shooting, but defensively, you don't even

get credit for you don't make no the offense. If it's crazy to me how good he is on defense, he doesn't get the respect he deserves. Just crazy and obviously, Draymond has been like my little brother, and we spent a lot of time talking about, you know, the league, talk about history, talking about you know, things that need to happen. And I was not surprised. I knew that

they were gonna be good. I mean they were like this close the previous two years because we we had that a lot of city team and I knew, like week with Battle with you guys, but this I was like, this team is young, this is it's gonna be their league in a matter of time. And it was our tough was to make the final decisions every time. I know I was pushed away, but you know, you you was able to, you know, playing long eighteen years and walk out on your own terms. And what did that

decision feel like? They say, I'm ready, I'm aint going loup b I knew my last two years, my last year going to games was like it's the hardest thing I did. I had to do, like getting up on him, bro, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like sticking my head out to winning like a dog and let them win. Air hit my face like it was it's taking me forever to stretch and get loose for games at the time. My wife and kids didn't live with me to let

the last two yeares stop working up. Yeah, some little patches one day and like the next couple of games, like he's super loose, he's just dug it all right, man, everybody to put them passes all that, everybody put one of the circle. I had to try everything possible to get right for the games bro, and I knew that it was over for me because I didn't love playing anymore. Like again, my last two or three years was strictly

about walking out on my feet. That's it, like I I it was so my last five years was so hard physically, like I never like people talk about a c L S and all, but that meniscus. When that meniscus is banged up and you can't grow it back, you can't repair it. That's bone on bone, right, Your elevation, your quickness, all that, all that ship is gone. And it was just more like I needed to be happy and respectful when I look in the mirror, right, that

was more. I didn't care about anything else, what nobody else said, just looking at the mirror. Are you happy how you ended it? And that's that was my thing now It was crazy because the Golden State trying to give me to come back twice. And I remember the next year because I wanted the next year, and then like I'm at home like this, remember because we beat you guys in game seven, uh in in uh l a. And then the next year all came they came back and win, and that was your last year. That was

your last game, bro. Listen. After that game we lost, I went my wife was in the room. I went back in the room. I just laid on the bed. I said, that's it. It's like I said, I told I said, she's like, what do you mean? I said, I'm done. I had I had nothing left emotionally in the game. UM. I needed I needed to give more back to my kids. So um eight years, bro, man of so much. UM it helped me be a better person.

UM it prepared me if everything I think that I'm going through now and hopefully I can give back to my communities and things that I've I've been good at things I wasn't as good as and let them use that as a tool. So you kind of saw you just said, you know, You're last five years were a mental and also physical Brian, when did you start thinking

about what's next? I mean, obviously you you're comfortable. You you did a lot, but as intelligent as you all, I knew there was something that you were going to be reaching for next. When did that start kicking in for you? When I told my meniscus, okay, I knew. I knew right away, I said, I said, just what

they're talking about? Like he was just like, I keep like because you never had no surgery right just on his lips A minus surges like out of minusurgey when from winning down Protejays had money removal the way lout power of quotes, and uh, I had a broke broke my toe when I was planning protejacks and I had to get a bones, breads taken out much but not that serious. But I had him. I had a meniscus,

so I told my meniscus. With the Lakers, went up for a rebound, got undercut and landed on my leg and was I thought I'd just prayed my ankle, also trying to shake it off. So I kept playing, trying to shake it off the field call. The time I would go to the bench, I put a towel over my leg and then I take the towel off and try to get up and my knees like this. I'm like, oh my god, Like what happened? What happened? What happened? Like you tore something? Come to find out with my meniscus.

But luckily they were able to go in and take the little piece out and then you know, six or eight weeks later he had been but he was in the hours. Just to credit them, we talk about how this smart is him and hours thinking businesses and stuff. We were in Yanda, like he had a club and like they were thinking after basketball, way before anybody else was.

We think about that because like when we played, if that wasn't the talk in the locker room now you're talking about with now now the locker room and talk because I caught the end of it, what are you investing in? This isn't like at this company collect That wasn't the conversation. We weren't talking about ship like that. So that's why I kind of want to know, you know what excess And that's why that's why I tell you I would never fall off because I got real friends,

the real brains. That's very smart to me that take him this motherfucker. I got him and I got I can never lose acts. But what was it like coming out? I mean, because Jack and I landed on our feet, never even thinking about doing commentary and funking with the media because we looked at media as the kind of the cops back when we play, like you don't even really want to tell them too much. But now we've been able to cross. So but what was your like,

what was next for you? Think as you're coming towards the end, trying to you know, trying to figure out what the passion was, right, So I'm dealing with that in a lot of stuff at this restaurants or whether it's take businesses or kind of resort building and stuff like too. But um, like just making sure that I had a passion. I remember my first six months of retirement. Bro, it was held. It's a lot, bro it was held, but I was like, what am I supposed to do?

And I actually had ship going on, But it was like I remember sitting in my office and like borderline felt depressed because I've been I played in the NBA half my adult life, right from seventeen to thirty five. Feel that boy, you know that's ex sedative nature. You're definitely missing. The biggest thing that I missed was the fellas, right, because we can go back into the communities and we can have some great friends in Dallas, Um, but it's

different because they don't understand what we are. Like in many cases, we're dealing with the same situations about the family relationships, whatever it may be. And some people can't digest that. Right. They see, Okay, you got money, you're living in like this, and like like what funk's wrong with you? Why are you mad? And why you say? Right? They don't get that, And so I missed the bus rides, the locker rooms, the plane rides. Um. I don't think

nothing in life can ever replace that. That's the main reason why I did the Big Three though, for that brotherhood. You know a lot of a lot of guys weren't playing, you know what about the game kicking with our brothers, you know, out on the wing events, Like it was just different. You know what I'm saying, Because like you said,

that's what we all have missed that Coarabnerie. All right, we're coming down to the end, man, So first thing to come to mind, we have our quick hitters, tough at player matchup in your career, it could be a lot of Um. I would probably say dirt though, because he was able to shoot off either foot right, and he was set for tar and he kept it kept up here so you couldn't get to it. And here he'd come down hard on you and just stop and pull and pull right and you're still moving right, He's

straight up and down. So I would say dirt. The whisk is probably the toughest cover, um that I've had that up. If you can go back and relive one night of your career, would it be then you have like a sixty point game we were together. If you got one game, you can relive when the game would have been ship probably the malice, Yeah, that crazy, Yeah, I'd like to relive that again. Um, what would you do different? So honestly, I would have preferred for us

to have an on court fight with their pistons. I tried it, tried it a couple of times, took my shirt on square woo on it. Not you, Darren colemen, but anybody don't want to smoke with you. But that I would have rather had the fight with them, because then you're talking about a two to five games suspension, right, It's just a player of fight, right, and it does. It doesn't linger into seventeen years later and we still talked about the same then. R anybody but there anybody

but Derrek Cole. When I did not want that smoke, I know my weight class, they had a bunch of that chilling. Was trying to break it up, but she was trying to break it up. They was chilling. You know what I'm saying. When I squared up, when I tried to squad with Lizza Haison, the coon was be lining to in front, in front, I'm like, no, I'm cool. I'm going yeah, No, no, j Are you plus four going to the black Top? Are you taking all time?

J Uh? Isaiah Thomas, Magic Johnson, Uh Shock Chest, cheap top five artists, Big Jay, z Uh, Kanye, whichever Kanye you won't Yeah, probably so I ain't away heartbreak Kanye. I'm gonna go. I'm gonna go. Um, I'm gonna go Drake too, Um because I ain't heard Drake put up put out no bs? You know how many is that right there? Um? Pop solid? Look he got emotional, you can say thinking about different five five Dinner guests dead or alive. Damn y'all hitting me. Um Holly Berry. You

should know how much I love Holly Berry. Um, damn uh, Really that's it, he said, Really, that's it. You got five dog Hollyberry. You man, that might be the point of ship we have for that Barack Obama, Um, Martin Luther, King, Malcolm X, Great Fox. Yeah, gonna get a dope. Last question, my brother appreciate you coming. Um, who do you want to see on all the smoke? Before you answering? You have to help us get your answer on the show. I probably said Kanye who I don't we even loved

to alcohol. You gotta go get him out the Georgia. Don sleep. We can't have a mask on because our things got to say him not to give you got the mask on just when that could be anybody. Yeah, you're gonna know it's Kanye Jo. Man. We appreciate what we said earlier. Man, you're not You're you're a man in very few birds. When you speak, people listen because you know what you're talking about. But thank you for

your time today to luck with the project. I'm glad you're finally after seventeen years beat over to get your side of the ship out, so hopefully it'll rest, but it's probably not gonna rest for me, and it's gonna be a little wild after this documentary, I'm sure. But again, man for your time and a real brother to me, My brother you know, well, I don't know the twenty five years we've been knowing each other, so I appreciate you coming on the show and always holding me down

to bro. Yes, that's a wrap, all the smoke, Jamaine O'Neil. You can catch us on Showtime Basketball YouTube or on the Heart platform Black Effects. This is all a smoke, a production of The Black Effect and our Heart Radio in partnership with Showtime