Jeremy Lin | Ep 85 | ALL THE SMOKE Full Episode | SHOWTIME Basketball

my ass down. Luckily I got COVID tested. I didn't have COVID and just the doctor's house dehydrated. I needed to rest, so I arrested. I got my fuel back up. Now we're back in action. Man, what's going on? That's what happens when you've been a good dad, man, and boys dragging you right now? Man, everywhere all over the place. Man. Anyway, we got a man, a special guest, someone I saw firsthand the Lyns Sanity experience and with my Laker team or our Laker team went out to l A and

he busted our ass. But man, welcome to the show. Jeremy Lynn, what's up with Sanity? Thanks for having me, guys, it's gonna be fun and everything good. Yeah, everything's good. I'm just in the bay, Okay, Yeah, I mean I'm in the bay. I'm in Plato, just staying in shape. Yeah. I finished the G League season, but since then, just kind of waiting for hoping for an NBA call it. There's you know, there's a week left right now, so that until the day. How so how old are you now?

I'm thirty two, okay, so yeah, you definitely still got some time. Like, how did the G League season go? Well? For us? We finished second? Um? And then for me it was nice. I finished finished seventh and scoring in the league fourth and assists and then uh, you know, topping in the shooting and shooting efficiency. So it was good for me. Um, really good for me. Got career highs from the field and three and free throws. So that's not my video has been working on is my shot?

Just trying to get it better. Um. You know when we play, uh, when we played played eight nine years ago, you guys are all backing up, sagging off forced me to shoot. So we have come a long way since then. You definitely took advantage of that ship anyway, let's get started. Uh, you know, born and raised in uh Palo Alto talk to us about your childhood and uh, you know, I heard your mom was really tough on academics, but you know, let you play basketball and then you definitely excelled in that.

But talk to us about your upbringing. Um. Yeah, I grew up in northern California and to some degree, it's a little bit of a bubble for sure. And uh, you know, I, like you said, for me, if it wasn't straight a's, I wasn't playing basketball. So you made sure I was getting I was, I was getting straight a's. Um.

That was kind of just a family rule. And uh and besides that, you know, um, I it's interesting like my parents growing up, they were traditional in some sense, you know, so I did the whole piano, violin and and all these different things that every immigrant Asian immigrant

kid was doing. But then at the same time they were really unique too because they they saw that me and my brothers we just loved basketball, and so they actually let us do it and they spent all basically all the money they're making was to go towards the house mortgage or like au basketball and stuff. Like that, and so they got a lot of uh, you know, they got a lot of crap. And they were constantly like, you know, their friends, other Asian immigrants were like, why

would you do this? Why would you spend all that money? That's crazy like that, and so they actually had to go through a lot just to even peer pressure of just to say we look, our children loved it, and this is what we're gonna do. And back then for Asian immigrant families, I was like ridiculous, Like it was crazy. And then next thing you know, um, I got a chance to play play in high school and go on

to Harvard. By the time I made it to Harvard, you know, a lot of people are like, wait, so what other what other sports can we have our kids start playing so that they can make it to Harvard to um. So it was a really cool role reversal. But that was what it was like. It was like I had, you know, primarily a white school, and then I had my Asian church, and then I had like my basketball which were primarily all black friends and teammates, and so it was it was really unique experience. For sure,

where did your love of basketball come from? My dad? So like when he came over. He came over while he was he had just graduated from college. Then he came over to uh Old Dominion, Virginia, and as he was just turning, you know, turning the channels on TV, he saw Kareem Abdul Jabbar and he fell in love with the sky hook. I swear, I couldn't even make this up as the most random story. But he just fell in love with the sky hook and he would go to the park and just work on it for

like two to three hours a day. And he never played in the skyhook in general. Just the sky hook. Yeah, just the skuy hook. I mean, dude, if you I'm serious, if you watched him play, like he will turn down an open lay up and then do a whole little like into the skyhook because it's a higher, higher like

accuracy shot for him. Like it's absolutely ridiculous. And so he worked on that for three years and then he started to play pick up and then once we had a kid, Once he had kids and we had you know, me and my older brother and younger brother, he was just basketball all day every day. That's so does he still shoot the skyhook to this day? Oh, for sure, he's always you'll find him as you'll find him at your local uh, your local Senior rec center or at the twenty four hour y c A coming your way

with the with the Jimings guy hook. So he definitely does that and put in h and still plays. Yeah, that's funny as hell. Who were you watching play as a kid? Who inspired you besides your day to be honest, the only player um like, so my brother, my older brother,

was always my role model. But in terms of actually like a role model of a player, like, the only person that I would say like genuinely inspired me and was a huge role model was Jordan's um and I as I got older at I had different bits and

pieces because my games nothing like Jordans. I can't do ent of things Jordan does, And so I started watching a ton of other players, but in terms of the journey and the inspiration, like I did all my book reports, if I could on Jordan's And actually that's the crazy thing. It's like I actually really looked up to a lot of black athletes growing up, especially in the basketball world, but even like in boxing or other other sports. To me, I drew a lot from minorities, but it was never

really Asian minorities. UM. And it wasn't until yeah uh Yeao came and he was playing in the bay UM and I remember at that time we didn't have that much money grown up, but we were just like me and my older brother like mom that you have to go, let us watch yao. And so we got eleven dollar nosebleedes at at Oracle, the o G Arena and Oakland and then we and then we snug down at halftime

to the lower level and we were just like loving it. Um. But you know, yeah, I was not necessarily inspirational the sense that I felt like I could be coming because he was seven six and he was a center. But it was more just like also seeing another Asian that, you know, an Asian on the floor kind of opened my mind up a little bit. But from the jump,

it was always MG. So like you said earlier, you know, you were you were lucky enough to to to play basketball in high school and actually really made a name. Um upset nashally rank Modern Day UH Player of the Year. Talk to us about your high school experience and kind of was it an eye opening experiant or did you always feel like you belong you know, I never when I was in middle school, I didn't even know if

I play in high school. You know, I was my freshman year in high school, I was five ft three. Half the girls in school were taller than me, and I was just seriously, I was like I was the skinniest little if you look up, if you look up my my pictures in high school, like I was like this two. I was so skinny. I couldn't I couldn't do one pull up, Like I literally couldn't do a pull up. But I just knew how to play the game.

And so you know, my body didn't really develop until I got to college and I started lifting, and that's when I started getting really explosive. But prior to that, like I didn't expect to be great in high school, Like I knew I was always one of the better kids in the area. But again I never had that, like I never had that like belief like, oh, this is what I'm gonna do. I'm gonna go to high school. Im kill and then in high school, I'm gonna go

to college. And I never and again the Asian immigrant experience, it's like the fact that I was playing in high school, I was celebrated like I was playing in the NBA. It's like, dude, he's Asian. He plays on his high school team, like the yeah right, that's dope. So your senior year, you lead the Palo alto the thirty two and one record. Um upset, like I said, modern day by four to when this Division two state title a

bunch of accolades come with that? When did you kind of start realizing that, Okay, well I did what I was supposed to do in high school. College is an opportunity now, yeah, I mean, you know, the recruiting experiences crazy man, like I was. I had to make my own tape. I sent it to a bunch of teams. I couldn't even get the Vision three schools to look at me. Um Like, I was trying to get Division three schools to just give me a chance, and they

wouldn't even take the call. Um. So Harvard was really the only school that wanted me. It was Harvard and D one and then m I T and D three. No other schools really like wanted me to go play there. And Harvard can't you know, they're in the ivories, so they can't give athletic scholarships. And so I was like, look, mom, like I gotta go. I just want to play basketball. I have to go to Harvard UM to go play basketball, because for me, like I didn't Harvard was you know,

I mean, academics was never like my passion. So it was like I didn't want to I actually want to go to Stanford. I want to play in the Pact Ten at the time, and I wanted to hoop with like in a better conference. But but then I kind of decided between the two schools. I was like, I can't go to D three. I was like, it doesn't matter which D one. I just need a chance. Give me a chance to go compete at the highest level,

which is Division one. Give me a chance and I'll do the rest in terms of like I'll see how good I can get and I'll see what can happen. And it's not I always have that degree to fall right. Well, I mean speaking to Harvard, obviously, that's a tremendous honor on the academic side. You made it work for basketball, But how hard was it balancing that kind of workload and being a student athlete, Because I know U c l A. I mean, there's nothing like the workload you

probably got at Harvard, and that ship was tough. That was probably because I didn't go to class very much. But outside of that, when I did go to class, that ship was tough. Yeah. My brother and sister in law both went to U c l A. And so I would visit my brother at U c l A. And that was my dream school. That was that was my dream school. And uh, and I really really really

want to go there. Man. We used to poop that went in until two am and go to puzzles, grab the clam chowder, bread bulls and do the whole thing. And and we would I would go within the class and but no, Harvard was a whole different level. Like when I out there, I remember I almost got put

on probation my first year. Um, I had like a C minus and a C and some B mine like and uh, you know, you get put on probation for you to d And that's when I realized, like what I was going, what I thought was education, this is a whole different level. Like you can study as hard as you want, but like you know, like when you hoop, sometimes they're just guys where it's like they just had no matter how much do you train an amount how like they just have something different. And that's what it

was like for everybody in the classroom. I was like, dude, I know that I know the textbook, I did the test in the homework, I did the readings, and these dudes are just at a different level. And um, I ended up. You know, I found my way. I got my g P up to a three point one by the by my senior year. I got my first day my second semester senior year, I got my first day in a class at Harvard. And that just goes to show like I had a four to g p A in high school, but in Harvard it was just a

whole different beast. So um, yeah, it really was eye opening, Like, wow, these guys are are really geniuses. Mm hmmm. So you grund, you put in the work, you stay in college is the first time you start lifting weight, so your body starts filling out, you get your athleticism. What is it like in that process becoming a star over at Harvard because they're not really obviously known for turning out basketball players. Yeah, and that's why I never felt like a star. Um,

and I never did. I never did because you know, people didn't care, right, like even when I was at Harvard, I tell people to be like, oh, so do you like that. I was like, oh, I played basketball. They're like I was like, I'm on the basketball team, and they'd be like intramurals um or they would be like, oh, I didn't know we had a basketball team. No, I'm serious. Even like I told my professor in my English class, I was like, hey, I have to I can't make this class because I need to go to have a

game and playing the basketball team. And he's like, oh, like, you just tell your coach which games you can and can't go to, because you know, like we have we have class every Friday, and if you missed two do you get kicked out the class for for good? And so it was just like a very different experience. So I never felt like a star. I never felt like I was, you know, a lot to go to the NBA,

even played professionally. Like. It wasn't until my assistant coach, Kenny Blakeney, who you know, he was a McDonald's All American and from um and and played the Duke with Grant Hill. But he was the one who was like, look, man, you can you can make it to the n b a Um and he's the one who put that belief in me. What what was the vibe like in Boston and slash Cambridge? What was the vibe black out there? Um?

It was crazy. I mean they have like I don't know how many, like thirty universities in that small area. For me, Um, back then, like I had like no money, so I never left campus. Even just to like go to downtown Boston. You had to get on the T and need to pay you know, a couple of bucks, and that wasn't even worth it to me. Um. And so I I didn't really know anything about Boston. I just knew Cambridge. I just knew my my school and and it was just like I knew all the deals.

So it was like, Okay, you know on Wednesday you might go to Kutobo or oh no, it's Monday, so like you could get a six dollar and large pizza. So I just kind of knew that little Harvard bu but I didn't know anything about the greater area. Yeah. I like the I like the grind though just to now you'll be addressing the class of one on their virtual graduation. What kind of honor is that for you?

It was I mean it's intense because you know when they sent over the invitation, first of all, I was like no, like me uh like again like I just wasn't expecting it. And then they sent over the list and then they're like, oh yeah, you know amongst the class day speakers, you know, there's there's Alpha or Hank, Aaron, Joe Biden, mother Teresa. And I was like, oh man, I'm definitely not speaking now, like this is not normally you read that list and then like encourages you to speak.

I was like absolutely not um. And then you know, my uh my sister in law was like dude and honor um. She talked me into doing it, and my and my sorry in my college coach coaching imacurate was also like you really should do it. And so I just felt like something that like, look, I won't be the most educated, but I can share from my heart and that's what I'm going to Your journey, your story is inspiring, so that's definitely something to share. Some congratulations.

So two thousand and ten, Um, you unfortunately go undrafted. Talk about the process from going undrafted to ending up playing UH for an opportunity for your hometown team. The Warriors. I mean that was you know. I remember when I didn't get drafted. My my agent, Roger Montgomery, basically said, look, you have five games in Summer League. Uh, you either make it happen or you don't. But like, if you want to get to the NBA has got to be

here in the Summer League. And this is where something for me, like phase has always been a big part of it. But I was injured and then like right before the Summer League training camp started, like the day before, um, I got cleared by the doctor. And then on top of that, at that time, I was playing for the mass and they had their last two picks for their

last two years. Was ridan Wa at point guarded Dominie Jones, that shooting guard, and so I was kind of just like barely getting any time and in practice or in the games. And then all of a sudden, in our fourth game, Roddy while got hurt. So that's why I

ended up playing in the whole fourth quarter. And we were playing against John Wall who was a number one pick, and that's the you know, and I got to go head to head with him, and um that's the only reason, you know, I had played pretty well, they ended up winning, but that's the reason why I got the contract, and so to come home to go to the state. I mean, uh, you know, you guys know what it's like to play

in the base, so it was just a different level. Um. It killed me, to be honest, Like I wasn't expecting it. Like the anxiety and the pressure. It killed me, my rookie here, Like I didn't know how to handle it. Just playing at home and everybody every day just like hitting me up or just like focused in on what I was gonna do, which was nothing, my rookie here, But you hit on something that I think is interesting.

And now it's obviously we're talked about and we're going to dive in deep into it later, but let's just hit it now. You've gone through some interesting phases in your life where you're at the top of the mountain, drop down, get back to the top of the mountain, fall a little bit, get back up there. You had to seek outside counseling, UM to kind of find out how to manage the ups and downs and everything that

came with us. UM, considering we're in mental health Awareness month right now, talk to us about you know that journey and that process and how that's helped you. And the biggest thing for me was, um, you know I throw a young age, I was just like crazy bull dreamer, um, and you know I always had the biggest dreams, the biggest visions, and I would go for it and then and then it wasn't you know. Two years ago I

went after so I had won the championship in Toronto. Um, and then that off season I didn't get a contract, and so I went overseas to play in China. When I went to China, I was the guy in terms of like like the lebron or the staff of that league and in the c B A and at the ball in my hands and everything. And and even though I was playing well, we were on one of the top teams, like and everything looked good on paper, in my mind, I was just like I was scared and

I was like where is this stuff coming from? Like I was Sometimes in the fourth quarter, I would be like, oh, no, I hope that uh, I hope that I don't shoot the last shot because what if I miss? Or oh I hope the coaches will put me in because you know what happens if I lose the game or or the pressure, and I was just like, what is going on with me? And this was coming off with two straight years of injury in Brooklyn, when I had like the perfect opportunity. I was a starting player. I was,

you know, the considered the franchise player. I was in Kenny Atkinson system, like it was everything that I was. I felt like I was supposed to continue with the New York Knicks, and then I ended up getting two straight seasons of injury, and when I didn't realize, I recovered physically, but I recover mentally, and so I started to think, like everything is just a setup for a disappointment.

Um every situation is going to end terribly or and I couldn't like process what was happening with me or what had happened to me, And so I got outside help to work through a lot of my Traumas I actually got to the point where I reconciled with a lot of people, I started making calls to all the people that felt like hurt me. Coaches, general managers, former players.

Some of them hit me back, some of them didn't didn't hit me back, but the ones that didn't, I had like I had to visualize, you know, that was one of the things I had to visualize the reconciliation. What would look like, what would sound like, and that, and and he kept telling me, you had to get beyond your past if you want to get to where

you want to get to in your future. And that was the biggest thing for why, you know, for me in the G League, why I shot career highs and everything while I was taught in the league, is in all these things I've done a bunch of things that never did before, was because I had been free mentally, and it was a lot the process, I mean, it was a journey. It was it was it was a tough,

tough process. Well, it's crazy to think about it because obviously, when you went on your rand and kind of made your mark in the NBA, you were hitting game winners at Madison Square Garden, you were you were doing all the biggest things that everyone dreams of. But then fast forward to a situation and it kind of sounds like injuries played apart. Injuries put a lot of doubt in

your mind. To now you're in the you know, the the Chinese League, trying to get back and you're doubting yourself obviously when you're one of the best players over there. So that that's how powerful the mind is. It's kind of crazy sometimes growing up. One of my coaches always told me he played professional baseball, and he told me the game is mental, and I was like, you have

no idea what you're talking about. But I realized at the elite level, a professional level, like everybody has the skills. It's like the dude who can shoot seven times and miss all seven and not car and shoot the eighth, Like that's the guy who is different than the guy who misses his first three. And then like it's like I'm playing it safe from here, Like there's so much in the mind and I couldn't even begin to go into you guys all know, but for everybody else who

may listen, it's like there's so much power into mind. No, it's crazy too because I'm I'm I've been coaching my kids since I retired, so I got them at like eight, just turning nine, and you know, now they're twelve, and that's what I'm trying to instill, like the most important is next. The mind is most the most important thing, Like it's because that shi it is powerful and it it's never really been discussed, but it's always kind of

been known. And now, like I said, I love the fact that people are talking about because these conversations obviously helped the people we talked to, but then are also going to encourage and motivate other people to seek the help they need if necessary. So I think they're obviously very important. But back to this, uh, the warrior opportunity. What did that warrior opportunity? Outside of stress, you had a lot of your rookie year kind of set you

up to do though. Um, you know, it made me believe I was Uh, it made me believe I could do it. Um. And I remember right when the season ended. At that time, we didn't know it was going to turn into the documentary. It was just gonna be this little you two thing. And uh, at the end of that season, we're going to the lockout and so I was like, oh, there's me a ton of time. We'll

start filming a little YouTube thing. And in that YouTube, like after the season, I sat down and I said to straight to the camera and it's now in my documentary. But I said, like, I'm going to become a rotation player. IM gonna be a starting point guard and then I'm gonna win a championship. And even though I played terrible, Like the one thing for me that I've always like, I've never come in And maybe it's an Asian thing

in terms of how I raised. Maybe it was always coming in and just being like completely disrespected growing up as an Asian, Like no one ever wanted to hoop with me, no one ever want to choose me, no ever thought anything of me. But I always walked into situations trying to feel it out. I never came into a situation being like I'm about to destroy all these guys. And so I came into the NBA and I was like, I'm gonna feel it out. I'm gonna see if I belong.

And that's the last thing you can do when you get to the NBA. If you're wondering whether you belong, it's over front. And so from for me in my rookie year, the biggest thing that taught me was I was like, you know what, I took a year to feel it out. I went down to the D League at that time. I killed in the D League, like, oh, I'm doing it, I can do it, And that's what it taught me, but I didn't get to show it. What was Steph like back then, it was tough man.

At that time, it wasn't really about step like the team was about David Lee, Monte Ellis um and and Durrell right had had a breakout year and step at that time, like in his second year, was just like he was getting benched a lot um and he talked about it, right. He was like, I was getting benched for for certain players that like you, you know, you

wouldn't even recognize who they were anymore. But he was really going through it, and he was kind of, you know, getting jerked back and forth in terms of like playing time his leash. And I feel terrible for him because I was like, even through it all, you're still a reagam, Like I don't know, eighteen points, twenty points or something like that, but it just felt like he was a scapegoat in a lot of ways. And and then on top of that, he started to struggle with his ankle,

and so it was really tough year for him. But he was always like man, he was always you never could tell he was anybody like. He never treated himself above anybody else. That's the biggest thing that I had learned from him and his love for the game. His love for the game was really contagious, like you just knew this dude loves playing basketball. And then you know, two years two years after he was still struggle with ankle injuries. And then after that was when it was

just like, okay, he just revolutionized the game. What happened. It's crazy because you remember early on, I don't know if you remember, but I mean, the fan base went crazy when they decided that Steff Steph was going to be the man they were going to build around, and they traded Monte and then, like you said, to hear and then he was thrown in a lot of trade rumors early on to to get him out of Golden State too. So to hear his beginning into where he's

at now is just like it's almost night day. But it's dope to see because like you said, he believed, he's humbled and worked hard and overcame and became one of the greatest point guards we've ever seen. Yeah. Absolutely,

I mean it was, it was. It's incredible. It was cool to see and and for me, even like Monte, I love Monte, you know, like and he was amazing, and him and Stuff were really cool with each other, but the media kind of you know, picked them against each other, and and they always treated all of us like super well. So, I mean, you know, just sucks that it kind of was that that that breakup was seen as that. Yeah. No, it's because Monte wasn't the

last from Art. I mean, you know, Monte was the last survivor from from our team, you know what I mean. And and and it was really playing well. So and I heard that too. I heard that him and Stuff actually did get along, but they tried to put them against each other. So for you to be there and see that and feel that too, that's unfortunate. Um, let's jump back. You know, obviously the Warriors have a tremendous and half for a long time Asian fan base. Um,

what was it like for you? Although you know, obviously your first season didn't go as you playned, Um, I'm sure there was still a lot of love for you. What was it like at that time, because I mean, you think a handful bit five years ago you were playing high school in Palo Alto, you know, high school basketball in Palo Alto. Now you're a Golden State Warrior. What was that like for you? It was so crazy, Like I couldn't even I was just so happy about it.

And and then once the season started, it was like everything that I thought it was about, like I got flipped upside down. And and it's weird because every time I check in the game, like I remember, like if the team was up ten in the fourth, I'd be like, Okay, I hope the other team comes back so I'll get put in. That's how nervous I was, because every time I'll get put in the game, there was a standing oh. And every time I touched the ball, the crowd be

like who you know? And it got to the point where I don't like what to do because I was catching the ball. I'll catch the ball, shoot at three and it would be an airball, and everybody like, you know, like I just had no I had no confidence. And and and that's the thing is like I had always been the biggest underdog my whole life, like always under the radar, whether it's in high school, was in college. Every story, every article is like where who is this guy?

And where did you come from? All of a sudden people knew about me and we're expecting big things. I didn't know how to handle it, Like, I had no idea how to handle it, and I struggled with it in terms of like it was almost like you went from underdog to being like the target on your back that everyone's coming after. Like I don't want that. This

Asian dude embarrassed me. That happened even in practice, you know where it's just like, oh, shoot, like I match up against Jeremy, Like, I better make sure you didn't get a bucket. No, that's the ship that happened in real games. I remember ship we put I mean we'll get there, but actually we'll just get there. Let's wait, we'll get there. If I'm not mistaken. You played in that UM we Believe versus the Dubs um Lockout game, didn't you? Yeah that's right then that game was so

long ago, but I remember you played. I think a young Steph play. Didn't Steff play too? Yeah? Yeah, like J Watson and a few others. Yeah, David, Yeah, that that was dope that I need to watch. I saw out some footage of that game, man, maybe like six months ago, and it was I want to say it was about stuff, but I just breezed through, But I need to check it out for that game was lit. That fucking gym was packed. That was a good aass game, Jack,

You missed. You must have been busy. Yeah, I missed it. Let's talk about how you end up landing in New York with the Knicks. So, you know, first day, first day of camp, um, and I'm like, I'm saying, I'm I'm having a great practice. I'm playing way better than people thought. The whole lockout for nine straight months. I worked out three times a day by myself for nine straight months. Like I'm saying, no, there are no breaks,

nothing like it was clockwork. And so I came out the gates and I was killing in the first practice, and halfway through they're like, hey, you gotta go up staious what So I go up stairs and they're like, hey, we're gonna we're gonna cut you because we're gonna extend an offer sheet. At that time in DeAndre Jordan's they didn't even get them. So I ended up getting cut

for for an offer street, I guess. But then Houston picks me up and um, and then I get there and there's five point guards and so I'm just like who else is there at that time, they had Johnny Flynn go on drag Kyle Lowry um and then and then me and then two other guards point guards that were like kind of that ended up getting cut as well. But basically like they were like, wow, you played so well, we want to keep you, but we have fifteen guarantee spots.

Just chill for Secon. We're gonna try to We're gonna try to trade somebody, um. And so they're trying to trade people, but no one will pick up at that time they're trying to get rid of I think it was Johnny Flynn. Alright, that's what my agent told me. But then I guess that that fell through, and so

they ended up cutting me on Christmas. And that's you know, two days before or day before is when Iman Shumper got hurt with the Knicks, and so the Knicks picked me up because they had liked my my pre draft workout and they liked what I did in the D League, And so I went out to the Knicks and I was just like, man if I get cut again, it's

over for me for professional basketball. Like I can't continue to go through this roller coaster of like the emotions and the anxiety and and all of that, and so I was really at my end. Um, I was really really really close to my end. And when my breakout came game came against him, that's when I was with

the Knicks. Like that was the last game, that was a week before the deadline, and that was the last game of a back to back to back in the lockout season, Like there was that was the only time we had three in a row and we don't have one back to back to back, and it was it was a week before the deadline, and that's why they put me in there, like let's just give this guy a shot before we cut them. And that's how that's how it happened. And that's why I'm like, man, I'm like,

the whole thing is a miracle from God. Like I can't even I can't even deny it. Yeah, where you go on one of the most historical runs, um, some would say in history. Um started with that game, But just talk to me. Where you kind of started getting your confidence and then obviously you see your swag go up because the game is going for you. You're doing this all in front of you know, the mecca are

in the Mecca, you know, New York. Just talk to us what that experience went back from, like damn, if I get cut again, I'm done to like holy sh it, like they're saying my name around the world now. I mean it was you know. I always felt like, look, I can help because every time they put me in for garbage minutes, I would do really well because it was again as d'An tony system. It was like a billion picking rolls and as much space as you possibly

could get. Then they sent me down to the to the D League and I played one game and I had like a twenty six point triple double or something like that, and so I was like, okay, like I think I'm ready, Like all that work that was put in, I think I'm ready, but I couldn't get the chance. But I wasn't expecting to do what I did, Like I was just ready to be like a solid backup

twelve minutes a game type of guy. But then when everything happened, I was just like, I mean, it goes back to the mental piece, Like you're asking, like, what was it like, dude, I don't know what it's like because it's a blur. It's like when you have your thirty point games, forty point games, like it was like you don't even remember him, Like at some point you even know how many points you have anymore. You're just

in the zone, right and it just it's flowing. And that's like the that's like the pinnacle of what each person and player wants to be, uh in terms of their mental headspace, where it's just like I'm not thinking. It's all instincts and I'm just I'm just doing what I know how to do, and it's it's muscle memory at that point. And that's what those games felt like for me. It was just like, dude, I don't know

what's happening. Like after the game, I would go back and at that time, I'm still staying on my brother's couch, but I would be like screenshot. I'd be like I'm on ESPN. Oh, like, dude, screenshot, I gotta save it. I got, you know, Like I was just so not used to it and I was just sitting on I was like, dude, I can't believe I just scored twenty

five points, like it's a great team. And then and now don't come back to the couch and I'm like and there's like half the couches folded clothes and the other half couch is like you know where you play? This is crazy, but it really was, Like it was such a wild experience and it went by the sad party.

It went by so fast. And my biggest regret, and I always tell this to younger players, is you guy, enjoy where you're at today, because if you don't enjoy where you're at today, you won't enjoy wherever you're trying to get to. Even if you got it, you're gonna set a new goal, like always told myself, as long as I make it too, Yeah, as long as I make it to the NBA, I'm good. I don't even

need to step on the floor. Then I get to the NBA and like no, hell no, Like this is not fun at all, Like I need to get on that floor. And then you get on the floor, and then it's all about proving yourself and then it's about all about staying there. And so if you're not learning how to be content where you're at today, you won't be content when you get to your destination. And that's what I had to learn the hard way through Lindsanity.

Talk to me about off the court life. Um, just as far as the notoriety on SportsCenter, celebrities, you know, like I said, that's everyone's are at those games. What were some of the one, maybe are two of the craziest things that happened to you kind of in your personal life because of how good you were playing during

that span. First off, the crazy thing was just like a ton of hotels and places were just like hey, hitting the knicks up, Like, hey, does he want to I know he's on the couch, does he want to stay here? It's ten thousand allar rent, but we'll give it to him for free and parking, And so I was just like, yeah, yeah, let's go when yesterday, I'll sign the lease and then uh and then there's like another opportunity where it's like, hey, come signed some photos,

take some pictures, will give you a BMW. So I literally did thirty minutes of work and I gotta be in W for the rest of the season. But it was just like it was just like that type of stuff. Like I remember one time Jared Jeffrey's Landry and I went to eat and like there was like a window and it was you know, there was a street and the window, but like my back was faced to the street,

but I guess somebody saw me. And when I turned when I turned back when we finished eating, and I turned back around, like there was like fifty kids the school next to next to the restaurant, and paparazzi and stuff like that. And for me, when I get recognized given by one person, like I'll get nervous and I'll

start sweating, like that New York experience. I was just like, I mean, there are people somehow long where I lived and dropping off cakes and like people like knocking at my door and not open it, thinking that it was like the ice, you know, people bringing up ice, and then like it'd be a fan and then the fan. I'll try to close the door and the family like put their foot in the door and be like no, like I'm not letting you close the door into you hit the photo with me like stuff like that. Like

it was crazy. So you got a chance to battle. My teammate at the time, Kobe Um he had thirty four, you had thirty eight. You guys beat us. But I was I was saying earlier that was a night where he guarded you. I guarded you Fish guarded you, Steve Blake guarded you. None of us could do anything with it, and we were just like what the fuck, Like, we were like really mad that you went out there and had some big shots down the end of down the stretch to win. What do you remember that most of

that battle about cope? I mean, I think the thing that I remember the most about about that game, or specifically about Kobe was just he never looked worried like we were. We were in control of the whole game, and he had a terrible first half. He ended up with thirty four, but he never looked worried, And I was like, what's wrong with this guy? Is he like

a robot? You know? Like I was like, oh, I expected him the game mad or to get you know, everyone knows the hype out a huge like hyped up game, and it was just like he was just like the whole game. And then he started hitting. And then in the third quarter he hit like five five jumpers in

a row. Landry's plastered all over him. He's hitting all types of it, and I'm just like, okay, Like, if we're going to win this game, it's going to It's not gonna be because we're gonna stop him because he's gonna get his shot, and it's on him whether it goes in or not. If we're gonna win, it's we gotta get more buckets. We gotta get more buckets, and so um at that time, you know, I appreciate it. You know, I remember getting nice it onto you at

the top of the key. But at that time, you know, you gave me my right hand, and your whole team was giving me my right hand. So I appreciated it. So if they would get sneaking a couple just enough to be able to squeak out to win. But yeah, I just I remember the that arena, like I remember hitting a baseline three and that's about it. I've ever yeah, And I was like, I've never I mean, I've been in the Raptors Arena when we were you know, on

that championship run. But that shot and that night, I was like, I don't think I ever heard of arena louder than that. What was the electricity, like an image you during this time? And what kind of zone were you win? Man? I mean it was just pregame warmups. Like I said, like I get I get I get nervous. When one person recognized me, like pregame warm ups was like it felt like a game because there are so

many people already there. There's so many reporters. Every time I do anything i'd be doing, they're doing my stationary ball handling, and like ten reporters like run over, tend like photographers run over and be taking photos and it was just like it was too much. Um it was it was a lot like each day, each game felt

like three days. Like it was so mentally exhausting for me again, like not knowing what it was like to be in the spotlight, never really having one and not understanding how to I'm not saying enjoy it, like like I'm not by nature, like oh yeah, everyone take a picture of me. I'll never be that personality. But how can I enjoy it and aware where it's like I'm comfortable. I don't feel like I have to be who everybody

wants me to be. Yeah, like you managing and then you you take away the positives without letting the negatives destroy your entire experience, And that's where for me, Like I always tell the story, like three weeks later after my breakout game, we're in Chicago about to play d rows of the m v P d rows and I couldn't sleep, and all the anxiety that pregame anxiety you can't sleep, can't eat, all that came back because I was just trying to be who everybody else wanted me

to be, and like that is just not like that's

not a meaningful way to live in your life. And so it was finally to me, even though I was on the top of the mountain exactly, I mean, that's the one thing about you guys, right, even like even like I mean, this is a hilarious story, but like I grew up a warrior stand and so when I was watching you guys do what you guys did, you know we leave and all that, you know, I remember even when I talked to Monte, he was like, yeah, like we were we were parted before every game, but

then in the playoffs, were like we stopped partying, and then we didn't weren't playing, and then we started loose and were like we just start partying again. Like you know, I'm not saying like I'm not saying everybody. Part of what I'm saying is there was there was something about you guys that everybody could tell like, Okay, it doesn't matter if you're the A C. It doesn't matter if up you're going going up against, whether it was Dallas,

whether it's Utah, it didn't matter. Like you guys were like a band of brothers and you were unapologetically you guys, And I brought the best out of you guys, even if it wasn't a championship, right, And I think like that's something that I had and have to continue to learn.

And that's again as part of the Asian stereotype, of the Asian stigma of like, oh, we just trying to fit in, and it's like, no, man, when you played professional basketball against the best players in the world, there's nothing that you can do, Like you cannot come in with the fitting type of mindset, and if you want to stay at the top, you cannot come in trying to just just fit in. Absolutely, Jack, you know that's one thing I forgot. We did try to stop being

us the funk were you doing? I forgot about that till he said that, because remember we went like, you know, we gotta chill out, let's lock in for the playoffs. Remember that. I wonder, I wonder who said that. I know it wouldn't me. Definitely, definitely wouldn't me. I know, it wasn't nuts, it wasn't us. But hey, one thing about it, man, you are your best self when you've been your authentic self. Man, that's how it is. Man.

One thing about does I think that's one people. That's one reason why people love us because what you see is what you get. We're not putting on we're not putting on the face. And you didn't make it being somebody else. You made it being you. So you know, man, that's how it should be. Talk to us a little bit about the situation there with Melo. Get an opportunity to play with Melo, obviously him being at home playing there.

Once you started doing really good, you know how people do just how they tried to do Stephen Stephan up Monte. They try to kind of low key put you against him. But what was your experience in your relationship like with Melo when you guys got a chance to play together. I mean, you're you're spot on. It was it was And again at that time three I barely know how

to answer an interview like a reporter's question. And then next thing, you know, the New York media it's like it's like, oh, that's oh that they took it that way, like whoa you know, And so for me like just learning the ropes of like how all that came to be.

Like I never had any personal problems with Mellow, Like we had a lot of discs suestions about basketball a lot of times with me him stat and and t y Mr And Tyson Chandler, Like it would be us floor talking about like Okay, what does it look like to win? Then I got hurt, and then all three of them were reaching out to me like telling me how to you know, come back from a meniscus tear

and how to you know, manage my body? And you know, that was just a situation where like I don't know, like, ah, to this day, I'm not sure what happened, Like do we get killed from the outside in or do we kill ourselves from the inside out? Like I don't know, you know, like at that time, no one told me anything. I was so oblivious to the world. And like I remember even times when like I would get questions and calls from the higher ups, you know, in the next organization.

They would be asking me. They would ask me these questions. I was like why and I'll just answer to them and I'm like, wait, that doesn't Why am I telling

them that? Like I didn't know, you know, And it was just like I didn't know how the game was played, and so for me, like, um, you know, to this day, I don't even know, Like I can't even give you a like I don't really have closure with that situation, to be honest, Like I have closured one since in terms of like when I went through my you know, and I got to help with my mental stuff, I reconciled across the board with all the people that could

have hurt me and those types of things. But like I don't actually know what happened, you know what I mean, Like I'm actually reading a lot of what happened. I'm reading from the news or picking up bits and pieces years after the fact in an interview that somebody said about something. I'm like, okay, so that happened. Uh, And

it was just uh. I mean again, like I kind of blocked that out because I think of the sanity now was like a really happy memory, but the ending that we we had was I mean, it was sad. It was really sad. But I think the fact that they reached out to you at your lowest moment. Normally, when the athletes are hurt, that's our lowest moments. And the fact that they reached out to I think that kind of shows a lot because you know, I mean, as you know, you had to learn the hard way.

The media is only there to do one thing, and that's caused destruction. Very rarely do you hear a good story, a happy story, you feel good story. It's more about creating division. And it's crazy to think like they're trying to create division amongst their own teams, and and in New York is not the only media. Media. Media does that in general. So, like I said, I think the fact that those guys you said, those guys reached out to you when you got hurt to kind of you

know for a shottline. I think that says a lot about who you were in that situation. Yeah, no, I mean, and and media is like negativity cells, right, I mean we know that. And so it's it's just you know, and that's why you know, now with social media, you and what you gotta do and you had grown. Yeah, you're you're controlling the area, so you can you control what you want to talk about and you tell the story the way you wanted to be told, And I

think that's really important. Yeah, well, I mean that's what you know. We that's the one thing we kind of take pride and is for an opportunity like this, you know what I mean, for you to tell, for our guests to tell their stories with without it being like, well let's try to pick something and flip it or do this like that's it's crazy, it's unfortunate. That's what media is about. And I think that's why we've been

successful is because we just want people. We want to show people the other side of you know, their favorite athlete or there with their favorite celebrity, and and and and there's no hidden agenda behind it, you know what I mean. So could people come here and speak freely because they know that's what kind of environment we've created. Yeah, that's why I wanted. I'm not even gonna lie, I'll sit very honestly. I was pitching you guys. I was like, dude, get me on all the time. Hell yeah, So we

appreciate that. What do you think could have been had it if he was able to stay? And then why it would have been so nice, man like it would have been. And that's the thing too, the weird thing. And and D'Antoni also left shortly after two. But if we had kept the whole squad together, like we would have been really really good. Um Like at that time, it was just like I mean, amr was you know, um the you know thirty and night. Oh it was an easy like fresh out of Denver like most lethal

the most lethal like mid range. So it's over and then and enticon. I mean, when we had all the pieces, we had the system. We just needed a little bit of time for people to stay healthy and for us to be able to figure it out. But we never got that opportunity. And that's you know, always you know, that will always be a huge what if. To me,

it will always be a huge what if. But you know, a lot of stories, a lot of careers you know, have that, but man, that one that would if I'm like dude, we could have had a lot of fun what if. Um So, like you said, you're not really sure how it ends, but you land on your feet, headed to Houston with a multi year contract making you a millionaire before but outside of the basketball park, you know,

you we've kind of got is obviously humble beginnings. Your parents did what they could to get you in basketball, to take care of you. Like you said, when you're on your Harvard campus, you didn't venture out much because you don't have much pocket change. So now you're sitting here, you signed a three year, twenty five million dollar deal. What kind what What was your first thought or feeling when it came to you and your family? Um, after

the journey you've been on. When I graduated from college, Um, like I was ready to go and do the pre drafting, and and my mom and dad they knew that I wasn't eating until I was full. Like they knew that I was trying to save money. So it was just at that time, it was like five dollar subway foot long, uh, you know, And and that's what I was trying to feed myself. But I wouldn't eat till I was full

to save as much money. And my mom said like, hey, I'm giving you two years to chase your your basketball dream. Don't worry about where the money came from. Um, it wasn't until you know, a couple of years ago. Actually it wasn't ntil I was thirty years old. When my mom finally told me, said that money came from my retirement, my four oh one kid, and so like that's when I say, like my parents gave it everything. Like they put themselves through so much debt. My grandmother paid for

one year of tuition for me at Harvard. And so when I landed that contract, to me, it was just like, dude, family first, Like I got a doubt, like to this day, like right now I'm in my parents house and so I don't even have my own place, and and it's just, you know, it's always been something that's all about family first and uh. And to be honest, when I got that contract, it didn't even feel like it was mine.

M m m m. That's deep. So your first season with the Rockets, you play eighty two games, UM back when eighty two games was what you were supposed to play, UM similar stats. What was it like in that new surrounding.

I mean, you're in Houston now, I'm not sure who is is D'Antoni the coach there is that when he got there at that time, it was McHale And then you know, we just picked up hard in two and and Harden was like the okay, see hearted and then he became like the herd and herded um where it was just like, you know, ridiculous, And so I got to witness that and be on his team for that

first year. But that was tough, man like, because the ball you know, for me at that time, I only really knew how to go right and play the point guard position. Now all of a sudden, it's like I need to work on my shooting, my off the ball cutting, I need to work on my defense. I need to work on all these aspects of my game that I never had to And that took me, you know, three or four years until really, I would say Charlotte was when I got to a place where I was like,

I'm going left easy, I'm playing great defense. I'm one of the top defensive rated guards on my team, you know. Form for the rest of my career, I was one of the top. You know, I felt like I picked some up defensively there. I felt like my shot came a long way. But it was like in Houston, it took those two years in Houston in that year in l A to really really work through a lot of that. What was it like seeing James is transition? You mentioned, Okay,

see James too, Rocket James. What do you think chained and made him Rocket James? As you can see like day to day being your teammate and what was that the biggest dude, the biggest thing. And this is why I'm gonna keep going back to the mindset. But like he wanted it and he knew he could do it. Like when he showed up, it was like when he showed up, he knew what he knew what he wanted to accomplish, and he knew what he who he wanted to become. And that's what I felt from him. That's

what I saw from him. And so it wasn't like hey, I'm here and like I'm sixteen a night, you know, and I'm hoping to take the next step. It's like, no, this is my team, this is my everything, and like that's and and and for me, you know, my biggest regret about going into Houston was that, like I was like, no, they'll put me on the billboards, don't put me on don't put don't don't put me in the promotional don't don't you know, Like I was just like, oh, I

don't know. I haven't proved myself for long enough yet and it was just like a differing viewpoint or differing mindset coming in. And so you know, I actually learned a lot from the confidence and the work ethic that that James really exuded. I mean I worked really, really hard, don't get me wrong, but it was still like again, it was that concept of like, let me just feel it out, what it's like to be a franchise player, let me just feel it out was like too, you know,

And and that was, you know, not not ideal. You must have forgotten that. And he was what was it that he was? They used to have an Asians on the billboards in Houston, That's what I was gonna ask the Rockets that used to that. Man, the Rockets are used to having an Asian on the billboards in front of the arena. Man, you got it. You should have been at home. I mean, I mean, it's not about it's not about it's not about who. It's not about

whether there was an Asian on the billboard. It was the fact that it was me on the billboards that I was like, yeah, you should nothing. But y'all, y'all had opened the door for you, so you're supposed to come in and pick up what you left and that's why that's why I wish I did it better. Right, Like, That's what I'm saying is like, man, like, did you feel any of that pressure? Obviously, Like I said, your guys fan base travels well, but it's huge in Houston

because of the footprint that. Yeah, Maye, did you feel any pressure coming to play in the team he became a Hall of Famer with Honestly, I didn't feel pressure from that end because I was already getting like at that time, you know, the year before, I was the most Google the most popular person on the planet and right, and that's that's where the pressure was really coming from.

Was just like can he do it again? And dada and to me like, oh man, I just wish I stopped asking the questions that everybody else was asking me and I started asking my own questions, Like I wish I really like took control of like, look, this is who I am and this is what I'm gonna do and I'm just getting started and uh and and uh. Man. So it wasn't so much about you know, coming in yus you know behind you know, behind it, in his

shadow or anything like that. Yeah, I love it so you're off to the Lakers two thousand, two thousand and fifteen. You get there when Kobe is kind of battling and up and down through injuries. I tell people, you can play other places, you may even win other places, but there's nothing like being a Laker. Did you feel that um coming in and putting on that uniform? Oh? For sure. And and it sucked because we ended up being the worst team in later history with the most losses. And uh,

that was a dark year, man. That was that was a really really dark year in terms of just what we thought the expectations were going to be because at that time we as a Nash. So Nash goes down before the season even starts, and then uh, and then Cole goes down midway through the season, and then and then me, Me and Cole actually had like a good number of run ins to Um about you know, about

how we were playing and things like that. But you know, a lot of it has made like the virality of certain clips of like him yelling at me, Nick Young and j Hill you know, in practice, or b waving him off in the game or things like that. But it was it was a mult of us year. Talk to us about some of the run ins, because I've seen some run ins. I want to hear what yours are like, because you were someone who had the ball in their hands as well. And obviously there's an infamous

clip and you waving him. But talk to us about some of the head button you guys had him. What kind of understanding you eventually came to. I mean, you know, and this is I've never told this story to this day and not you know, but I'm like wondering if I should you could you should all the smoke and all the smoke talk to us. Now. At that time, he was coming back from injuries and then he was

also going through some injuries. But he was like he you know, he was like thirty five year old Kobe with the twenty five year old Kobe mine and so like he had it in him that he wanted to prove to the world, like all the report who said he couldn't come back from his achilles or other injuries, like he had this like like intense level of like

I'm gonna prove you wrong to the reporters. And so he was shooting like you know, there are games are shots, and they were you know, it got to the point where there are a few games where he had shot us out of the game, and and again it was just he was at a point where he was going through so many tough injuries at an age that his body couldn't keep up with the demands. And so that's where like me and the rest of the team, like

we we had different different thoughts. And so I remember I would go head to head with him, and we would like because he doesn't sleep, like he slept like two or three hours a night, and then I would be up because we would lose. So when we lose, like I would always be up at like three or four and I would be watching films. So we'd be texting at three in the morning, four in the morning, like like arguing with each other, conflicting with each other. And it got to the plane where I was like,

I told him this is how it started. I said it look your your Kobe, like I'm coming and trying to learn from you. Okay, So like I'm okay with anything as long as you talk to me like like a man, like in terms of like don't talk down to me like I'm a boy. Talk to me like a man and respect me. And then you know, he had always said, like, you know, everybody just says what I want him to say, Like it's very rare that

somebody actually stands up to me. And so for me in that situation, as we're going back and forth, I finally had enough. That's why I waved him off that one time too, because I was like, you know, I've seen like I don't want to go down this path again. We gotta get something else going, we gotta get some ball movement. But basically, like after that text message conversation, we're going back and forth with each other, like we didn't speak for the last four months of the season,

like nobody knew, nobody on the team knew. But for me, that was like something I was willing to accept because I said what I needed to say to him and if he didn't like that, and he didn't and he was like I'm not going to engage in or like I'm not gonna talk to you anymore, I was like, all right, cool, I can I can live with that.

At least I said what I need to say. On the flip side, there were times when I was younger in my career where things would happen to me and he didn't say what I should have said, you know, and and that was what like basically, then you would

end up getting pumped. But the cool thing about this story is we didn't speak for the last four months of the season, and then the next year was his final year and that's when I was with Charlotte and I was playing really well, and in the middle of the game is when we buried the hatchet and we said, like, you know what, it's over. And so we started talking to each other. We were asking about each other's families like we were before and then and then even after

the game, we started texting again. He was giving me some advice on my game, and my whole thing the whole time was like, I look, I'm not saying I'm better than you. I'm not saying any of that. I'm saying, when you talk to me, don't top down to me. And I'm ready to listen, and I'm ready to try to help this team in whatever way it is possible.

And for me that was a big step because you know, again, growing up in the Asian culture, it's like don't you know, don't don't step, don't step on the toes of the boss or whatever. But from me, I'm like, I got to a point where I was like, look, this is who I am and this is what I need to do as a player. And I feel like, actually him not talking to me, I feel like that was actually

a signing respect. Like he was like, you know what, I'm pissed at you, but I actually respect you because you actually said something to me versus like so many other people won't. And that's one of the next year, the next season, when I was in Charlotte, like, he was like, I mean we taught you know, it was just like it like never happened. And he was just like, We're back to normal. How your family? How can I help? What? What?

What advice can I give you? And that was and that was my experience with him, and I learned a lot and I grew a lot. I love it. I love it. That's a great story. Glad you shared it here. How did you? How did you land in Toronto? So I went through two straight years of injury and then I ended up in Atlanta. I got traded to Atlanta.

At that time though Atlanta, um I had shown that I was healthy and I was picking up a lot of buzz and so I had asked for a buyout because at that time, Atlanta was one of the worst teams in the Eastern Conference, and the Raptors were really, really interested, so they were It was like right the day after the trade deadline, you know, that's when all

the buyouts start to happen. And I'm in the middle of the game and i don't know anything about anything, and I'm just playing and Lowry is just like defending me. He's like, hey man, you come to you rolling with us? I'm like what he's like during the game, Yeah, during a game, he's guarding me. He's like, hey, you're rolling with us, and I'm like, oh man, what And I'm like, what are you talking about. He's like you're coming over right, and I'm like, what are you talking about? And then

it was until after the game. I found him after the game, was like, hey man, what are you talking about. He's like, oh, like, I thought you can get a buy out and come, you know, come hoop with us. And I was like, oh, like, I haven't had that conversation with anybody. I didn't know you guys were interested.

But that's how it started. And then I found out like, yeah, Toronto was really interesting me that whole time, But everyone was waiting to see what happened in the trade deadline, and it never got to me UM, And so I asked for a buyout and then I went to Toronto because that was a team. You know, they were a top contending team and they wanted me and they had a position for me. You know. That's fun, dope and

funny at the same time. The fact that he's I mean, obviously you know Lowry being one of their main players, he knows what the team is trying to do. So he's telling you during the game, like, yeah, you're coming to funk with us, not even that he's guarding me. Man, He's going He's like, you're you're with us? Right? I'm like, no,

what are you talking about? What was it like being on that team once you get there, witnessing the shot becoming a champion UM for a franchise that had never won UM kind of like an underdog situation, kind of like your journey throughout sports in your life. What was a culmination of all that for you? And what did it mean? I mean, on one hand, it was so heavy,

like do you made history? First Asian American ever been put you know, to win a championship, Like it was like there was a weight of like the the what that moment meant, and you know, I had gone through the sanity, So at that time I was trying to really embrace itself every thing in because a lot of times when you accomplished stuff, you don't realize what you did. Like I don't think you guys realize what you guys did for the Bay in that moment, right, like you

were just like focused on the second round. But like then years later you're like, oh my goodness, like the impact that it had, Like I didn't realize it at that time. That's what I was trying to avoid. So on one hand, it was like, wow, let me just soak this in, like this has never been done before. On the other hand, though, it sucks because I was DMP And that's actually the start of when I realized, like, hey man, I had some mental I have some mental

like trauma. That is not right. Because when I got to Toronto, I had ten games to be able to solidify a position and to really like work into the rotation. And the biggest knock on me then was like, oh, he just gets really down on himself. When he misses his shots and stuff like that, and so like it was like for me, it wasn't about skill. There's the assessment of me was like, oh, it's about it's about

where he's at mentally. And that's when I realized those two years of injury, like they were having some real

effects on me. That that that year in l A or the time in Houston, the time when I went from the top of the world, literally the top of the world too, Like I lost my starting position, then I started losing playing time, and then I lost a lot of fans, and then I lost a lot of endorsements, and then all of a sudden, you know, like that whole downward and then I and then I finally get you know, in a great position, and then I get injured. You know, Like that whole thing like really weighed on me.

And and in Toronto's when I started to see the cracks in the foundation and so from one end it was amazing and on the other end, it really hurt. And that's the last time I ever stepped foot on the NBA floor. And I haven't been able to I mean, I haven't even been able to get training. Like I I said, like hey, I'm gonna come as a non guarantee. I would come on a ten day. I will come in training camp and fight my way. I would give

me any opportunity to prove myself. I have not been able to step foot in any NBA facility since that time, even though for me mentally, i've you know, I'm in such a different place. And even in the G League, I killed, I absolutely killed in the G League, and I still can't touch an NBA facility, And that, to

me is what's heartbreaking. Is like, man, that championship, that's the last time I've ever got a chance to really, you know, be a part of the NBA um and where I was in where I am now, Like I'm a whole different person and a whole different player, but I don't get a chance to to show that. And that's what that's what is like the bitter sweetness of it. Man, We're hoping you get an opportunity to, like you said, there's still some time here and then if not this season,

next season. But it's it's crazy because that mental state of mind is absolutely everything, absolutely everything. I mean, Jack was a killer. Jack didn't give a fun how many shots he miss he was going to keep shooting. But it takes a certain type of mindset to get that, you know what I mean, and be able to and

that's what a lot of people don't understand. There's just all the ups and down to come, like listening to your story now and getting to know you better during this interview, like you've literally been to the top of the world, and then you literally just told us now

you can't step. You haven't had an opportunity to step on another NBA floor, you know, and since you won a championship, so to be, it's high the most google person you know to to to go head to head with Cobe, beat him at the garden to talk, you know, going back and forth with him, like you've really seen

all the upstals in between. And I think the fact that you're still here and kind of getting better, as you said, mentally is the most important because there's probably several times, you know that could have been enough for you, you know what I mean, Like I said, you've seen everything, man, So we just want to commend you that you know you you stuck this fucking thing out, man, and God

willing you get another opportunity. But even if you don't. Man, at least your mental health is stable now, and I think that's what's most important. Yeah, And seriously, man, like I've come, it's gotten to the place where like I'm like almost coming as a beggar. Like you know, I've talked to you know, g ms, I've talked to you know owners, I've talked to you know, the commissioner, I've

talked to Max players. I mean, I've been like a exhausting every opportunity just to get a chance to prove myself. That's why the g League bubble, when they said they're gonna have a Glee bubble, I was like, all right, let's do it. I just need to show you guys. I mean, I've been in this position for the majority of my life of just like trying to get my

foot in the door. And and then like and that's and that's like something that's so interesting about it is like I've seen both ends of the spectrum and so now it's like, man, it's like I'm in a great place mentally, and I just want to enjoy it. Man Like, I just want to enjoy everything about the journey because one day, like I mean, you guys know, like everybody always told me it goes by so fast, and it

really really does, it really really does. Yeah. Absolutely. You once mentioned, Um, Steph and Westbrook were some of your toughest guards. Do you have any stories Um matching up against either one of them? You know, because I used Steff personally, so there was never like, you know, any any you know, We've always had a lot of respect

for each other. But the one story that I always tell about Steph that like why I say he loves the game so much is my rookie year, Like Steph was going through all types of ankle injuries and we were playing our eighties second last game of the season, and at that time they were giving me playing time because we were already a lottery team and Steph had rolled his ankle the day before and he was like could barely walk and he literally like hobbled on and

played the last game of the season. And I was like, well, one, I was like, why are you playing? Like give me some like let me get my thirty five minutes tonight. But but on the other hand, I was just like, dude, like that is intense, Um, like you love the game. In terms of Westbrook, like we've never had We've never had run ins, but like the way that Westbrook looks at me, it just I just it just made me

feel like he hated me. And I've never spoken to him like we we talked to Chapel and stuff, but just like and just the way he looked at everybody were just like we were talking Chapel and be like, oh, us up, you know, like and pray for each other whatever.

And then we get on the floor and then I like go to like dap the other team, and then I will dap him and he would just be like me, mugging me and everybody else in the world, and I'm just like, oh, he's just like there's a switch for him when he starts shooping like he hates everybody's the way he moves. What do you think of Steph and Russ's growth and amazing performances this season. I think I think Steph is just doing whatever the hell he wants

right now. It's like they're just looking for him every possession, every second. He'll he'll have three opportunities or he'll look for shot three times, not give it, and then he'll just get up, you know, past it, and then everybody will go set a bunch of screens for him, Like he is literally changing the game, man, Like that's happening in front of us. He's literally changing the game. Like

I hope people can appreciate it. And then with Westbrook, like I mean, I just don't understand why he's so it's hard to say like that an m v P is underrated, you know, but like people do people realize what he's doing, Like they don't. They don't get it. Do you know how many games would take for me to get rebounds in a game like that? Probably takes like ten games for me to get like he does normal, like your numbers are normal for a point guard. Point

guards get two or three rebounds a game. Like this, dude is going out there and grabbing plus twenty rebounds, plus twenty assists, plus twenty points. It's just it's insane, but he makes it look easy. So I think people don't appreciate how hard it is. Yeah, they don't appreciate. Like it's like when you've been doing it for longer or like for a long time, they just get used to it and it's like it's like okay, steps Stepp hit eleven threes or at forty nine points and twenty

nine minutes. Like, look, man, that's not normal. Even if

it's normal for stuff like that's just not normal. Don't talk down on these players or like even with Westbrook's like he just tied the big Old for triple levels I think, or something like you know, it's like, dude, like this is history, Like the most recent crop of players and in the last like five to ten years have just absolutely shattered some of the existing like records that have lasted for decades like and so it's just we have to keep in mind when we're talking about it,

like this stuff is revolutionary, like what Lebron is doing, Like people will like they need to appreciate that. And like I think that's something that we saw with Kobe where it was just like when when he's gone, like you appreciate him more, but like did he get all the respect that he deserved earlier? And that's a lot of and that's a lot of these players, man, And

that's and that's actually what makes a narrative. I mean, I think even m J when I watched and think about what he went through, like went through a little bit of in terms of like younger in his career was like we didn't know like how good he was gonna be. And so there's always an element of like players are kind of underappreciated while they're in their primes.

Facts James one of them to James Harden as well. Yeah, um, coming from lynsanity to where the Knicks, um go back to ur Now, I wouldn't want they go back, just go back to the bottom of the league. Seeing their rise again and and what Julius Randall and these guys

have been doing, Tims have been able to do. What are your thoughts on the Knicks, I mean easily the biggest surprise, Like I played, I played with Julius Randall in l A that year with Cope and and uh, I mean he has come such a long way and I love Okay, so not even just that, Like Tims got fired multiple times, right, Like Julius Randall went through a lot and kind of came out of no where. Derek Rose went through a bunch of injuries in it.

And that's why, like you can't really ever count somebody out, Like you really don't know until like it's all about opportunity and timing and so like it didn't work out for them in in previous situations, but now in the right situation, as long as a player continues to stay confident and keeps pushing forward, like you don't know what

they're capable of accomplishing. And that's why I think it's so easy to just count people out, Like across the board, it's like, Oh, he's sucked last year, so he's done. Like it's like, no, dude, Like these dudes are like prime like that. I think for me, it's like, look at the players who consistently find ways to overcome hurdles, or the coaches that consistently find ways to overcome obsticles, like like there's something to be said about the persistence

of like a pursuit of excellence, great powerful mind. Coming towards the end, we're gonna switch lanes though, and and and talk about what's been going on the country of late um. These Asian hate crimes, you've you've spoken them. We we witnessed um Um it's been crazy. What are your thoughts on just kind of where we are as a country and and in this particular, uh, these these incidents that can continue to happen. I mean, it's it's really sad um and I'll say, like it starts with dialogue,

it starts with empathy and listening. Like that sounds really stopped, right, Like that sounds really like Okay, everybody's staying. But but really what it looks like what I'm saying is when like when police brutality was happening, like at the height of the the like the uproar, when black lives matters, you know, all that, all those situations, like it mattered to me, but it didn't hit home like this one

is hitting home right now. Will stop Asian hate. And I'm not saying that it has to be a perfectly equal experience, but I am saying, like I even learned a lot from like, hey, I need to have more empathy. Like I tried to do a lot of things in certain situations, but I still didn't have Like I didn't really understand all that. I didn't have the conversations that I needed to have. I didn't feel the depths of it.

I didn't do enough research, like and that's why I like, I think right now, it's like if we're going to really make progress, like each person has to look in the mirror and say, like where do I like, where do I stand where where can I help? And where can I learn more? If we could all start with learning a little bit more, we're talking a little bit less or judging a little bit less, I think we'd

be in a much much better place. And and that's why I like, for me, like now that it's really really hit home in a different way, Like I'm kind of like, man, if I could rewind the tape five years, like things would have looked differently. I would have done a lot more and done it much better and had a different sense of urgency because these are real, live to real people getting stabbed, burned, killed, and uh, and we need more empathy, like we we need to start

talking in in in a healthy direction. I think, what you hit it on the head, and you have to even because you'll never experience the exact obviously, every i'd say, every ethnicity goes through something when it comes to minorities

being killed, hated on, discriminated or whatever the situation. Maybe, but until you try to just not even walk a mile, like they say, just try to, you know, just try the shoes on, see what it's like, to understand what it's like to be in those situations, will never go anywhere, because I think you said it perfectly. It's just like, you know, I understood and I supported the Black Lives Matter movement, but it didn't register with me, like these

Asian hate crimes? Do you know what I mean? So, and I'm sure some African Americans can say the same thing about the Asian hate crimes, like damn, that's sucked up? Why is that happening? But it doesn't hit home because we're over here getting killed by this, this and that, you know what I mean? So I think until everyone takes a step back and wants to have more of an understanding of what I think minorities as whole we

go through and we all have our own issues. Obviously, African American issues date back to to to the beginning of this country, and we continue to be killed and and unfairly judged and all kinds of crazy ship. But there are other ethnicities that go through their version of what's tough for them. So until we all open up and have that collective understanding and dialogue, will probably stay stuck in this neutral position. You know, when I came over,

and this is a sad part. When I came over, all I knew all I knew about you know, African Americans was what Hollywood told us. And so you know, for me, it's like every time, you know, when we're growing up, you know, my parents would be like if there, if they're if a black person would walking on the street, it would be like, oh, lock the door, right, Like that's all we knew, that's all we saw. It wasn't until I started playing. Once I got to elementary school,

I had a lot of black teammates. Once I got to middle school, high school, had a ton of black teammates. And then I started going to you know, East Palo Alto to picking them up, and then they became like lifelong friends. And then all of a sudden, just by pure exposure, my my perspective and my parents perspective completely changed. And now it's like like when I was with the Rockets, my mom was getting brunched with like Pat BEVs mom and James Harden's mom, and they became they were like

legitimate friends and like eating together. And it all came from exposure because you actually took a little bit of time to step in someone else's shoot shooes. And I think, like that's the powerful thing and the sad and the sad thing about it too. Right now, it's like if we can't really get to a place where we're having healthy dialogue or trying to like listen, like, it's not

gonna happen. Because the truth is, there has been racist things done in both directions, whether it's the Asian towards the Black community or the Black towards the Asian Like that is true. Like I even when I started playing well, like, there are a lot of really hurtful things that were said about me even as I played in the NBA. There's a lot of things that you know, I've experienced

in terms of like, Okay, the black community. I felt like, like, for example, one of my favorite athletes like would always come to the game and helped me, and I had to confront him and I was like, dude, you inspired me, man, like I drew from like you like and and they just hated on me but had never spoke of me. I've never done anything to them. And and then on the flip side, like there's a lot of anti blackness that needs to be addressed in the Asian community as well.

And so I'm and that's what basketball has done for me is just put me in this middle ground where like, man, I've experienced certain things from from black players and black teammates that like I'm like that really hurt me. And then like on the flip side, I also know that I've been a part of even what the things and the stereotypes that I've had about certain people like before I actually got to know them, and that that that healing has to happen through dialogue and through empathy, and

you can't go into it. You can't go into a conversation on on the defensive, right, like that's not gonna get it done. If you really want to go and have a real conversation and have your perspective expanded, like you have to go in from a place of empathy, like no, for real, like let me listen to you, like let me not just for me, Like I learned Asian American history and it made me piste off because I was just like, why isn't this stuff being taught?

And this is super shady. But then I haven't had it, you know, I haven't gone and done the research I need to really learn the African American history or even like you know, I'm not gonna get into all of it but just even tapping into the surface of like the prison system or incarceration or the things like that,

and how systemic these things are. Like I had to go into these places to learn without any preconceived notions, in a place where I'm really trying you to listen and have empathy and not try to prove myself or defend myself. Like that has to happen, and that's where real healing can can come. And from the dialogue, we'll start to have awareness, accountability, and change. Like that's how I've always seen it. I completely agree. You spoke on your time in the n b A and and some

things were said. You were recently called the coronavirus when you're playing in the G League. But I like the road you take. You didn't necessarily call the players out in public. I think, if I'm not mistaken, you had a conversation with them, when you guys sat down and had you know, had talks. What was that like, Um, Like I said, it's it's it's been a crazy last two years. But what was that like just to kind of that kind of energy coming towards you on the

court again? Yeah, I mean, you know, and this is why I went in a different route, right, Like, so you know, for me, when I was with in Brooklyn and I had dreadlocks and there is and I wrote a piece on appropriation and and um, and I remember when Kmart had said some things and then I responded to him and then me and him spoke it out on the phone and it was amazing, right, like that

reconciliation pieces amazing. But what is one thing that happened to this day, Like when when Kmart will post stuff, he will get racist comments, he will be called the N word. He like, there will be things where people are really trying to take him down for something that happened years ago. And that's just not okay, right, Like that's not We're not moving in the right direction if

that's the case. And so that's why when this whole second situation happened in the G League, I was like, I'm not saying the name because I don't know, just do like having to deal with racist Like that's what I'm saying, the anti blackness and stuff like that is like so if if we're upset about certain certain racist things happening, word, we're gonna do turnout and be racist like that just doesn't make sense. It doesn't matter what

race you are, Like, that's not solving the issue. So the point is about building awareness and then building up and learning how it can heal and go in the right direction. And so for me having a conversation with the player in the G League, we actually spoke and had a great conversation. He was like, I've been in the boat, man, I don't know anything about what's been going on. I haven't been on social media. I'm just

trying to get into the NBA. And then he's like, it wasn't until that that I started looking up all these things that happened to the Asian American community. I'm so sorry, man, Like, I didn't know it was like that. And then I shared some stuff, but it was just that was real, right like, and we really got to each other. We really learned from each other and our perspectives changed. Um. And that's why you know I went

that rout. I commend you, Broth because a lot of people are are scared to scared to speak on these types of subjects because they would be afraid to frint offend people and say different things. But like you said, the conversation has to be had, and that's the only way we're gonna make make any type of way and get to what we're trying to go because we all trying to get to the same place of equality. And

you just saying something that touched you. Man, it's funny you said that a lot of people should never get to the point where it was happening to their own race to take other people's place. Serious, if you care about the other race, you know what I'm saying, And we should all care about each other equally, you know what I mean. That's one reason another reason why we gotta have a conversation. And we gotta reteach. We gotta

reteach what we was taught. I was never taught. I never heard my mom ever say lock the doors with somebody come by, you know what I'm saying, Never in my life. And I lived in the ghetto, so and now I and I grew up in the house of love. And that's why I say me, you, me, you, j me and everybody else who stand on the side of love. We gotta re teach people. We gotta we we gotta, we gotta change the narrative because we can stand together, we all can stand in the same room and respect

each other. But a lot of people wasn't taught that

we gotta reteach people that money. I mean seriously, because because to me, like what's really sad, was really heartbreaking is when we start to compare experiences looks like this years at that and it's hard for me in this situation, like like and for me, like one of the situations I'm dealing with right now that I feel like i'm doing with it's like the glass ceiling, right Like, it's this the whole thing about Asians can't get to a certain place in there in an employment because there's a

glass ceiling or the bamboo ceiling as they call it, right, and so and I can sit here and I can talk about that, and then it's but it's not my experience versus somebody else's experience, because everybody's is different. And at the same time, if we talk and we compare and then we try to like minimize each other's experiences, what are we doing. We're just taking attention. We're taking attention off. The real issue is a system that makes

us feel that way. And so all of a sudden, we're talking about how each one of us is hurt and how each hurt compared to the other person's hurt, when we should really be talking about the system and what's going on there and how things need to change. Is what you're saying. Re teach what has been taught. Love. We all we all got the same goal. But if you think about it too, I mean, we're really all

minorities here, you know what I mean. So why are we at each other throat head neck when, like you said, the system in place is supposed to make that happen to and we're falling right into the trap. What we need to you know, unify, conversate and move forward together because like I said, I think we saw, you know, we saw what happens when we unify. When we unify, it's scary. People get scared when we unify, especially if

we're educated and we unified. It's just like we've all fought to get to where we're at now and in the world's finally listening, like what's next, Like the next thing is to become unified and and have a universal message for all of us because we're all in this like one way or another. Yeah, And that's and that's you know, that's why I wanted to be on the show. To be honest, it wasn't talk about my career all

the other stuff. Like it's because like people don't realize, like you know, like there's so much to learn from me talking to And that's the one thing that kind of feel bad about the podcast situation is like I wish like you guys had the floor like two thirds of the time because like there's so much like an learn from you guys right there. There's so much in learning and through listening and like I don't know, it's

just everybody and you guys deal with it. It's like, oh, you're you're you're an athlete or whatever, and so like they there's all these boxes that everybody's trying to put everybody in. But at the at the end of the day, like it really does come down to like having true, real conversations and relationships and that's what's gonna change it

all the way across the board. Like that has to happen, um And so you know, I'm like super grateful that you guys allow me to do this, and I know you guys wanted me to come down to l and I couldn't make it. But yeah, it's it's amazing, and I hope you guys continue to do what you're doing and even to some of the guest other guests that you guys have like it's awesome. What you gotta doing? You know what I gotta I gotta tell this story now.

And Brian would be mad Brian from Showtime. This weekend, bro, we was at the Civil Rights Museum and Alan Novice in Classic and there was a lot of people around and it was this one Asian reporter and he was nobody wasn't talking to him, so uh and UH, I think some kind of way Brian and my photographer got it on camera, but I never posted it for no for no for no game. But I walked up to him,

like what's up. Bro. He ended up driving down from Indiana and uh we I end up talking to him, end up exchanging numbers with him and uh and and told him anything he needs as far as the obs and Classic, Uh to call me and uh I get him in anything he needed. But I'm saying that to say, this is the type of world we gotta get rid of of discrimination. You know what I'm saying, This is why I love being who I am, because I'm gonna I'm gonna be the person to knock all this stuff down,

you know what I'm saying. And and and it's funny we're talking about it because this just happened this weekend, you know what I mean. So this is the type of stuff that we gotta knocked down and come together. Man. I'm glad that I was able to to to reach out to him and make him feel involved in that weekend because I've seen how he was getting uh uh put pushed out kind of not not being treated like every other but everybody else that was there, you know

what I mean. And that's the stuff that we are still dealing with today. But all it took was you to to extend your hand and your words. It wasn't hard. And I'm saying it wasn't hard. It wasn't hard, and that's what we're still going through that today. Yeah. Absolutely, But I said, like, how far did it go to? Where you know, you find out he came down from Indiana? You gotta changing numbers. But it just started with you out of just your heart. Just let me go how

they're do real quick? You mean, because I see what it was just it was just sation. Hey, MLK is smiling down on you. Yeah. Hey, but Jeremy, on's some real ship. I think, you know, we can talk off live, but maybe we can put some sort of like all the Smoke round table together where we can get you know, us US three and some some people have either been affected by it or been a part of it or something. And like I said, continuing these conversations because these are

the conversations that need to be had. And you know, one thing, we we pride ourselves on his versatility over here at all the smokes, so we can give you, you know, anything that's needed. So we'll definitely further this conversation offline and see if we can put up together. Yeah, we can get Julius Adaman, Miles Leonard, we can get all little on two. It's a conversation. But no, hey, I managed because it means a lot to me. It really does. And that's why I like being playing basketball,

Like say, like man, it saves me. Otherwise I'd just be I would just be a Hollywood. I would just be listening to what Hollywood said about black people, and that is um. So like I just yeah, let me know, because we will we'll get your information. Yeah, we'll see what we'll we'll talk with the team, but you know, if we should be able to knock that down. All right, now we're on the quick hitters. First thing to come

to mind, drop it off. If you can pick any four current NBA players to go play a pick up outside game with you, So you plus four, who would it be? It would be Lebron's steph uh, K D and A D. You got you guys. You guys are losing. Yeah, I'm just I'm just gonna pass and stand in the corner and there you alright, give give me your top five most impactful Asian athletes of all time? Five I mean uh yeah, I mean um Naomi Osaka, um nice, Hey,

don't be bad, don't be bashful. You should be in there, no bullshit, alright, alright, alright, we'll throw myself in there. But uh does what Bruce Lee did count as being an absolutely? Both they both athletes, that's what? Yeah? Hey, good, okay, let me throw a name at him. See if he remembers me and gaybatur No, he played with me for the seven Tonio Spurs. He was nice, yes, yes, on my chat on he's playing points I think on the

championship year he was on tap. He has a ring a matter of fact, No, it was a Yeman point of championship. But he played with us on the side tel first. He was like six ten, almost three hundred pounds he was, but he had footwork. He had great footwork. He had great footwork. Hey, that Bruce Lee and Jackie Chan and that was that was nice. Definitely impactors. Come on, man, the Drunken Masters top five all time. Cut it out for to start playing like that. You see that Jackie

Chan is one of the best athletes ever. If you can relive one moment in your basketball career, which moment would it be and why? Man, I wasn't really gonna say, uh, my favorite shot in my whole career was at base on three point in front of your guys best but I was gonna say that. But I respect hold on to that one because when he said earlier that shot in me, I knew exactly what shott he was to. He said, I hit a baseline drum. Was like, no, you hit a baseline jumper right next to our bench

in that quarter. I remember that ship. I remember that question was a dagger. Like, now you can say that first shot that was dope. That's because it was your shot. If you could one message on a billboard, what would it be? Empathy? That would be it empathy or hope, either one of those because to me, like going through this situation with no hope, like we're not gonna make it through to the other side. So empathy or hope all caps, ooh, put some put some nice whatever pictures

behind it. If you can host one guess on All the Smoke, who would it be? But before you answer this question, you have to help us with your answer. I have to help I have to help you with So whoever you whatever your answer is, you have to help us get that person on. So who would you like to see on the Who would you like to see on the show? And if you're answer, you have to help us get your answer. So it's got to

be somebody, you know. Yeah, I mean I think it would be cool for you guys to talk to Adam Silver because when I spoke to him and I had a lot of conversation with him, he was like so different and more normal and like just the way he viewed like very wise, like beyond like what I expected, far beyond what I expected, or what like you know I had gone through the lockout and so I had seen a lot of the way that the MVP A and the NBA had his beef. But that would be

a great conversation. I feel like I like that. I know you thought about Adam Silver. Yeah, me neither. He texts me. He text me doing all this stuff the last year and have some real nice stuff. So I would love to talk to him, reach back out to him. Well, Jeremy, Man, thank you. Uh, we appreciate you. Uh. Your run will never be forgotten. Like I said before, though, Man, outside of all the basketball ship, it's good to see that you you know, you you're mentally stable, because I think

that's what's most important. Um, what you're doing in this social justice space. Um, like I said, you had to happen, had to happen to your people for you to understand. But to me, it's never too late to get an understanding or want to learn. So again we commend you for that. And um, like we said before, man, we're gonna put some sort of round table together, so make sure we get your information and man, let's continue this conversation. But thank you for being on the show. Jack, great show.

Jeremy We appreciate you. You can catch you. I appreciate it. I'll reach out and try to get you guys numbers. I'll shoot you guys in text later. So yeah, I appreciate that. Thank you for sure. For sure, you can catch us on Showtime Basketball, YouTube, and the I Heart platform Black Effects. We'll see you all next week. This is all a Smoke, a production of The Black Effect and Our Heart Radio in partnership with Showtime