Isiah Thomas - Part 1 | Ep 176 | ALL THE SMOKE Full Episode | SHOWTIME Basketball

But he finally came out here for something. I found out he was coming out here for something, and he blessed us with his time, two time NBA Champ, twelve time All Star, one of the greatest point guards slash players, the original Z to ever play this game, the real zke Yes, the one and only, one and only Isaiah Thomas. Thank you for the time, man, Thank you for coming through ways always. Uh. There was a rumor just recently that you were going to sign with the Suns on

the management side. It came out and then what's the latest with that situation. So I'm on the board of UWM, which is matt ishpe is little scolding company. And you know it's crazy. You have the two biggest mortgage companies in the US in Detroit, UWM and Rocket Mortgage. So I'm on the board. He and I've been friends for a long time. Advise him on a couple of things. He advised me on a couple of things business wise, and we have been you know, really looking for a

team since uh twenty twenty one. NTT wanted to get into the business. Um, his brother wants on the baseball team. Matt wanted to own the basketball team. So you know, when the story came out, it was only natural that they put us together. You know, advising, still talking, still consulting. I don't have any plans of being in a front

office position ever. Again in terms of running basketball operations. Now, when you talk about advising, consulting, ownership, those type of things, that's probably where I fit in a you know, not necessarily. I got too much going on. I don't see myself sitting in the office day to day running basketball ops again. But from an advising consulting standpoint, that is on the table,

and you know, we'll see what happens. Just obviously basketball is what you're known for, but now you're known for just your entrepreneurialism is that a word, or entrepreneurial ship. I mean doing very well mogul, Yeah, cannabis space, champagne space, real estate, private equity. Business of basketball wasn't very big you played, because it wasn't very big when we played, you know what I mean. Now it's it's the norm. But you've been able to really capitalize off the court

with investments and in the business space. Can you walk us through, uh, first and foremost your champagn because you said that's what's keeping you youthful. So um, fortunately enough for me. Uh. You know, basketball in sport has given me the opportunity to really, you know, expand globally. Um. And the name of my firm is Isaiah International, and we do a lot of business outside of the United States.

So when you talk about the champagne space, Um, we got two hundred acres over in the Old region of Champagne, which is the oldest region of Champagne, with the largest black owned champagne company in the US, largest first pressure of champagne in the US. And there's three presses of the great first press, second press, third press, and as you know, the first press is the best press. We also are known for of zero and low sugar champaigns. Why did we want zero and low sugar champagne's being

former athletes? Right, Most people who drink champagne immediately complain of a headache. So you ask the question why, right, it's the high sugar content in the high soul fites, right, So we wanted to bring something back to the US, not only back to the US, but back to you know, all people who love champagne, drink champagne, promote champagne, but it's not theirs. So what we wanted to do is

bring you the best of the best. And my ECON teacher told me a long time ago that you know, if you if you got the highest quality and you can give it to the customer and consumer at the lowest price, then long term you're gonna win the game. So it's not the best marketed, it's the you know, the most, it's the best, highest quality. And we're out here now getting ready on board and a couple of

the Hyatt hotels. That's why I'm out here. So Crilon Champagne the number one rated zero low sugar, first person great champagne in the United States, Black owned and also supported by the four hundred and fifty NBA players on the NBPA side. So shout out to the NBPA for you know, uh, you know, helping and sticking with former players and marketing anybody else in marketing. Now we got some black black owns, so it's good to get that in there. They might have the all time most successful

backcourt ever Microwave, super successful, Zeke and Joe d them three. Like, if you wanted to model yourself about some basketball players that took after bandage of their career and after basketball, y'all might have the top basketball I mean backcourt in history as far business wise. Thank you that seriously, if you think about it, you ain't lying if you think about it. Yeah, I hadn't thought about it that way. But that's why we own this show. Ye that's y'all.

That's why y'all. Can you think about that? Well, thank you for that. And you know, and you know we if you notice when we was describing ourselves when we were playing um, the media always gave us the physically tough label, but we always described ourselves as mentally tough. And yeah, it's like, you know, you you win with smart people. You know, you win with people who don't

make mistakes. Uh, you know who I understand how to you know, operate, work within the system, game plan, you know, make sacrifices and then you you try to go out and win the basketball game with it, and fortunately enough for us, we had a lot of players that that wanted to do that and did it at a very high level. You talk a little bit about the cannabis space.

That's something that Jack and I are both in and and and it obviously, you know, this push was supposed to be the push for the minority population in that space, and we're still very small percentage of the population that's making that up. But can you talk to us, but what you guys are doing in the cannabis space. So I'm chairman CEO of a publicly traded company called One

World Products where we cultivate and grow in Colombia. Now again, my firm is Isaiah International, and we do a lot of business, most of our businesses outside of the United States because outside of the United States, I classify as an American. Inside the United States, classify as black, and you get the minority tax. And we got a lot of white folks in here today who travel, you know, and when you travel outside of the United States your passport,

you know, you white folks say they they're American. But the only time they say they're white is when they come back into the United States. The only time we say we black is when we come into the United States. Outside of the United States, there are no minority classifications

in terms of business so one world products. Why do we choose to cultivate and grow in Colombia the same reason we chow was France for Champagne, the soil, the sun, and also the farmers and the workers that you work with in terms of the indigenous farmers and growers Columbia. Right now we've partnered with the Afro Columbia community. There been granted one point two million acres of land to

grow industrial hymp. So when industrial hemp space and we're also in the THHC in CBD space there also when a process I got a couple of confidentiality agreement signed, so I got to keep my fingers a cross. But when a process of onboarding two of the larger brands here in the UA in the US who sells CBD and THHC products. Now we can't distribute THHC products across the across the border yet, but internationally, as you know, the borders have opened up in other countries, so we

can move THHC and CBD products into other countries. The US will open up th HC wise, it has opened up CBD Y, so we're able to move product into the into the US and the CBD and the CBD oils standpoint. The industrial hemp side, we work with the automotive industry. Just signed an agreement with Stilantis and Flexingate to produce a part on the jeep Wrangler that they've given us that we in the automobile space they want to reduce their carbon footprint. Hemp is the natural carbon

sync so it takes carbon out of the air. And what we've done in that company one world product is that we position ourselves not only to be the largest supplier of industrial hemp, but if you if you think of how can I put it. Most companies are set up to deal with corporations. We set ourselves up to deal with industry changes. So as as plastics are moved out of the industry, you're looking for the next raw

material that will be infused into the industry. And we see industrial hemp being the replacement for plastics and also reducing the carbon footprint. UM you both of you know the discovery of the indocannabinoid system that was discovered in the nineties. Had we known about it when we was playing. I'm sure we would have treated ourselves much differently. You know they when you talk about CBD and THHC. The two things that it does for athletes, right, reduces inflammation

and help you sleep. That's all we need. No swelling, no pain. I can go to sleep, you know. So, I think you know the plant is going to change the way medicine is prescribed. They're now teaching in medical school now about the indocannabinoid system CB one, CB two receptors, and the more we discover the benefits of the plant, the more it will be used. Now you hit an important topic in terms of you know, classified as black in this country getting business opportunities. We didn't get it

on the first blush, to first go around. Now that federal and state still having come together in terms of their laws. In the dispensary model that's set up here in the States, you can only cultivate and grow from You can only buy from the cultivators within the state, but you can cross state lines. So it's a it's

an antiquated business model that's been set up here. We do believe that it will have to expand and open up and once it expands like any product, and it's you can globally by it, buy it, and supply it. We see ourselves in Columbia being a unique trade partner with the US, probably the biggest trade partner with the US on this side of the equator. Uh. Most of your flowers that you get come from Columbia here in the US. Your coffee or bananas, a lot of fruit.

So as a trade partner, Columbia is one of your biggest trade partners. Columbia is projected to to supply forty four percent of the world's cannabis supply only because of the geography and also because you can turn your land over three times a year. So again that's that's what we do in one world products in terms of So I'm in the champagne space, uh, and I'm in the cannabis space and my kids love it. Hey, that is the plug. That is as though, let's go back man,

I'm a west side of you. No, you're a west side absolutely. Uh. Talk about young Zeke growing up on the West side of Chicago. It was it was, it was hard and as a matter of fact, you would you would just uh there. I think about a year ago he was running around and old block. Yeah, I got the calls, right, I was like, nah, I call, I said, I'll let him know that I was out there. Row. But no. But growing up on the West side of Chicago,

and we we emphasized west side. And and here's why because, uh my mom worked for Fred Hampton and I was one of the kids that got the free breakfast, uh you know, learned martial arts and all that. And and the Black Panther headquarter was right there on Madison and Western. The Chicago Bulls the stadium was two blocks from Madison in Western where we you know you go to the United Center now, or what we called the stadium, It

was two blocks from there. So as a kid, I was standing outside the stadium begging for shoes, you know. And then they would throw the popcorn out after the game, and they would put it in the trash bend. So we would always you know, wait and get the popcorn and take it home. But growing up on the West side, right,

you had Noble Drew our lead teachings Moorish Americans. And at that time it was about nationality, right, and you and I've had some conversations about you know, nationality and citizenship. That's what we were all about on the West Side of Chicago. When Martin Luther King moved into the West Side of Chicago, lived four blocks from my house. There's a street named after my mom in Chicago. My mom was she was a gangster, you know, a real deal. Yeah.

So Homing and Jackson, you will see Mary Thomas Way and you know, named after my mom. You know, we marching all the civil rights movements. Um. You know when Martin Luther King moved in, you know, we didn't have babysitters. It's nine of us, so she you know, she would take us and you know, we had to go where her and my pops went, you know. And so that's kind of the neighborhood that that I'm from. Um. You know, the first original game that started in the United States,

the Vice Lords. Um, when you talk about the Vice Lords and and and all these games that really started. You know, they if they go back and they read their original charters, right, the original charters were set up. They was supposed to be community base. Yeah, and they was protecting the neighborhood, and it was protecting the neighborhood from the police, right, because there was a lot of police brutality and and and we were fighting not to

be colorized. We were fighting not to be putting an apartheid, colorized system. And when you go back and you look and you know those signs that they was running in Memphis that I am a man. You know, we were fighting not to be dehumanized and taken out of all humanity. Right. We wanted to be and remain human. But now we've accepted and we've adopted this colorized system. But but those were the teachings that were taught on the West Side

of Chicago. So that's where I come from. That's what's ingrained in me, That's what I carry, that's what I still fight for today. And you know, there's no there's no pure anything. We're all living on a hyphen right, you you you know your Italian American And I'm gonna say this, right, when we were growing up, we grew up with Italians, we grew up with Greeks, we grew up with Polish, we grew up with Irish right, and they were proud to call themselves Greek, Italian, Irish. Right.

When did everybody become white? I mean, they don't say I'm I'm Greek anymore. They don't say I'm Italian anymore. They don't say, you know, um Jewish that everybody it's either white, black, green, purple, blue or horne. My mom I used to you know, what, what are You'm black and white? And my Mom's like, no, you're Italian. You're you're Italian. You're not You're not white? Right, right? Yeah?

And and and and by the way, the Italians, you know, come from the Moors, right, you know, so you know, when you when you, all of us are human beings, right and and if we can get back to being human beings and get away from this colorized apartheid system that we're operating in, then we got a chance to make it, you know. And that's what the fight has always been about in this country, right, Those who are who have been classified as black have always been trying

to get out of black status. So when immigrants come in, they quickly say what's your status? And they tell you what this status is, right, And you know, so nationality, birthright, citizenship status, those are the things that we need to be talking about. That was the conversation on the West Side, and that's the conversation I still carry today. One quick one question. You said, you and your mom used to take you out to the marches and stuff like that.

I got a chance to experience that with George Floyd. Did any of that change you experience that? Like, did that have like any type of hold on you to be able to experience that as a youngster, because I experienced as a grown man, and it definitely changed me. Yeah.

And and so two things that I noticed dramatically, So when we were marching, you know, in the sixties, my first ten years of life, right, Martin Luther King's assassinated, Fred Hampton's assassinated, the Kennedy's are assassinated, and we're talking sixty three five, then the Cicero riots, Chicago Rights sixty six, sixty seven, So this is my first ten years of lights on the West Side. So I like seven riots, you know, all in all community, right, and it was

just the community in the city marching. Right. George Floyd gets killed, and I watched all the pain that you was going through, and we all cried for you and fell for you and saw your heart on display for your brother. Right. But the thing that that was so different about George Floyd and us marching for voting rights I can't believe I'm saying this. In this country, we

still marching and trying to get voting rights. Think about what I'm saying, right, classified as white in this country, they ain't never had to march for voting rights right, equal rights, keyword, civil rights. I just need you to be civil to me. So I'm and these are these are these are terms, these are labels, right, These are

labels civil rights, equal rights, voting rights right. So George Floyd gets you know, gets murdered in watching all the pain that you was going through, but then seeing the whole world. That's different. It's different. Not the whole world stood up and was marching those who were classified as black, white, different countries of the end. And what they were saying is, hey, United States of America, these people that y'all have classified

as black, please stop doing this to them. Change these laws, let them be human right, give them their nationality back, let them be a part of the system. Right. And

And that was different. You know, where the world stood up, and not only did the world stand up, but you had black folks, white folk, green folks for everybody, I mean everybody, And in the sustained movement of the young folk, the young folks in this country, was like a I don't know what y'all talking about it, but I like snoop, you know, like you know, I you know, it's like you know this my brothers and and so the young folks, what they've done in this country, and I hope they

keep it up, is putting the pressure on to to to let us become a part of the United States, American fab brick and and we don't need no no, no. You know, we classified as a minority when you look these terms up in the dictionary, right, hey, these words have meaning, right. So hey, I'm not a minority. I'm a grown man, right right, take care of myself, pay my own bills. You know, I'm not a handicapped individual, and don't classify my business as handicap. You know, treat me,

you know, level the playing field. We come from sport and all we ask for is hey, man, just the referees don't cheat like they chalk for the Lakers. No, no call, you know that a chance? So sorry went off on that. That's why I asked, That's why you had me. I was about to let them down. Yeah, I saw them tears coming, but you're saying, man, but that's some deep stuff. Man. Y'all did it. I mean y'all and y'all doing it, and we need y'all to keep doing it. Appreciate it. You know. Let's stay on

the west side. Let's talk about Lord Henry. How how big was he in your life and how nice was he? Man? So my older brother, Lord Henry, right, um, and so I think he may still hold of the Catholic schools scoring record went to Saint Philip's and um, you know when we talk about George Gervin, right, I didn't know George Gervin back then. And back then the NBA one

on TV like the NBA's on TV now. So you only admired your your the people in your neighborhood or your older yeah, the locals, and every night and then you may you may hear about doctor J. And then your imagination you this is doctor J. Move but you ain't never really seen him, right, Um. But my brother, Lord Henry was so smooth man. And the name alone, you had to be called the name. Yeah. You know, my mom and my dad they had high hopes and of course of the place that we was living in.

That's That's that's how it was. But um, but now and and and he got turned out though you know you got turned out on Heroin. Um ended up dying, uh, you know, several years ago. But but man, you're talking about a pretty jump shot. You know, between the leg dribbles behind the bag and the way I was taught to play the game and the way he taught me to play the game, it was all spiritual. You know. It was like and I can't I can't remember him and my older my my second oldest brother, my third

oldest brother, Larry. You know, it's like Junior, you know, you you just can't play the game. You gotta feel it. I mean, you gotta when you shake, you you gotta feel it. Man, you just can't. You just dribbling. But the fun is that you dripping. Yeah, you gotta feel it, man. And so you that's how you know you tried to play. You tried to put that spirituality into the game where you tried to make that person who's watching you play feel what you feel. Right. And so brother Lord Henry,

you know, like I said, he died a Heroin. But the one thing, you know, he kicked right, and I remember when he kicked, you know, and he said, I'm gonna go back to school. And and while he kicked, he was like, damn, you know it was it was it was easier when I was on drugs, you know, because now now you got to get back into the system. You've been out of the system for a long time.

But he went back graduated from college, and I never forget, so you've been on the West side, right, we his grad The night before graduation, I rented a bus and the bus was me know, fifth Avenue in Jackson, right and and he was graduating from UH school in Detroit Universe with Phoenix University, you know that, yeah, that online thing. So um. So I rented a bus and I had the bus, you know, show up on Fifth Avenue and Jackson at four in the morning, three in the morning.

Want everybody to be there at three in the morning. Bus gonna leave at four going down to Detroit so we can watch Lord Henry graduate at four Field. And I never forget bus driver calling me up like, hey, man, you you shoot I got the right address. You shoot him in the right Okay. I'm like, yeah, man, you're in the right location. So anyway, all the Lord Henry's friends. You know, some are still addicts. Um, then some you know,

you know, I've kicked and everything. So we load up the bus and as the bus gets loaded up, now a drive down to Detroit. I meet him in Detroit and we had his graduation and I never forget. Man, like my brother walking across the stage, had his cap and gown on. He didn't know what he was gonna be there, and and all his friends started holly, Lord Henry, Lord Henry. And man, he broke down on the stage and just started crying, like crying like a little baby. Man.

That was That was one of the most beautiful days that I remember. So when you talk about Lord Henry as basketball playing, but the fact that that dude went back to school and then he just died a couple of years ago. You know, oregons just shut down all of the heroin and stuff. It just body just collapsed. But yeah, thanks for bringing him up. Thank you. Man. I just lost my little brother. I lost my older brother when I was young, So I know the feeling. Yeah,

I know the feeling. Yeah, Chicago Pipeline all especially now all the young players that's coming out of Chicago. Man, Um, what's in the water though. You got d Wade, Anthony Davis, Kevin Gardner, Derek Rose, Tim Hardaway into our walker yourself, uh will buying them? Patrick Beverly, you got so many, so many hoopers come from there. All dogs, Yeah, all

dogs talking about what's in the water. Well, it's in Detroit water not too so, I claimed Chicago, Yeah yeah, and and and but you know for us, right, it's so we always say the south Side like them south Side guys, you name, they all got haircuts, you know, they pretty what I mean, they and they and they can shoot right west Side We d n up. Yeah, so we Patrick Beverley, We Tony Allen, you know what I mean like we, I mean we we were picking you up ninety four feet, were getting in your face.

Tim Hardaway, you know them south Side dude, the Wayne Way. They can score, Yeah, I mean they can they can score the basketball. So it's it's like we and then they got a lot of food over there too. We have it food. But but I would say, just what's in the water again, it's the spirituality of you know, wanting to be the best and wanting to compete. And the guy that we probably the most proud of out

of Chicago is Derek Row. I mean, hey, man, he he lived all of our dream all of our dream right, and then he plays for the Chicago Bulls, right, and then he becomes the youngest MVP he of the league at twenty Oh man. I mean, I mean, I mean everybody's like, you know, when d Rose walk into the room, it's like, you know, theme music be playing. I mean, so you know, again, it's just a I think it's competition, right, we want to compete. A lot of us really like

to fight. Don't say we went all our fights, right, nobody does. Yeah, Like I grew up fighting. I had to fight like twice a week. I didn't win all my fights. But then you just start like fighting, right, and you just be like A you know part of it, yeah, And I think it's Chicago. That's that's part of like the get down now in Detroit. So I you know, when you look at what I the way I grew up and the way I learned how to play in Chicago, what I tried to do is take that to Detroit.

So when you look at the Chris Webber, as you look at the Derek Colemans, you look at the Jaalen Roles. You look at the Steve Smith, you look at you know them. We all bring that same like okay, we we come in with it. And if you don't like it, I'm sorry. You know, Ronnie Fields, man, if he wouldn't have gotten an accident, bro, Yeah, people don't remember, like so KG, Right, people talk about Kevin Garnett, but in Chicago,

they say, Kevin Garnett played with that time. It was like he played with man and and you talk about somebody jumping high. Right, So when KG first got to Chicago, right, you know, KG like to talk, and you know he really animated, right, and he wanted to play everywhere, like everywhere, and and so he growing up in the gym and and and so everybody like, man, who is this dude? Mane He kind of talk a lot. You know, it's like nah, man, he good Man, he good likely Liam

And so KG like went all over Chicago playing. But as you say, he's the guy that played with Ronnie run And it's like Dwayne Wade in Chicago, right, Dwayne Wade get mad love, but he don't get the the the Ronnie Fields kind of loved because in Chicago, it's what you did in high school. Yeah, if you if you was the man in high school, you're the man for life in Chicago. Chicago, Yeah, we don't have a more decorated athlete that come out of Chicago than Dwayne Wade.

Dwayne Wade is like the gold standard, you know, Olympics, gold medal championships, everything. Nope, no one has got more you know, decorations than Dwayne Wade. But in Chicago, oh, man, man, you know what I mean, that's how I go. You know, it's like what you did you know in high school is what matter? That's crazy? Uh, you end up chooting Indiana for college? Who else was on your list? No?

I didn't choose Indiana Indiana. We'll talk to us about where you're who was recruiting you, and where you wanted to go. So, um, of course I wanted to stay at home and go to Paul uh. And then my second choice was Iowa with Lude Osan And um, you know, so coach Rosboro was the assistant coach at Iowa and he actually coached my brother Lord Henry and Gregory at Our Lady of Sorrows. So if you go back and you look at Iowa, Lude Osan always has Chicago guards,

you know, from Ronnie Lester, Kenny Arnold. I mean, so he had that Chicago or pipeline, Kevin Boyle, Jim Stack, and he was able to get all him because he had Rossborough who had coach on the West Side. So, um, I wanted to go to De Paul, wanted to stay home. And at that time we were we were poured and poor, you know, no lights, no gas, no food, you know, struggling every day. And you know, at that time people

was offering you money to come to school. And I never forget, you know, had had I stayed home in Chicago, things would have been really nice for the family. I don't know if I would be alive to day though, if I would have stayed home in Chicago. And and y'all can understand this, and I've never really said this, but growing up in the neighborhood that I grew up in and growing up the way we grew up, my mom made the wise decision and said, you know, you're

going to go to in Indiana. M had I stayed in Chicago, I don't know, if you know, running the running around doing the things that we were doing. Yeah, So but she chose Indiana for me. You know, legend has it that when Bob Knight showed up, the whole neighborhood showed up, The whole neighborhood showed up, and and then there was a fight almost that broke out to so my so, my uh so, my two older brothers, you know, all my brothers were there. Um and my

second oldest brother, Gregory. Um, I'm sure you heard about my second older brother, Gregory. Uh so. He so, he asked Coach Knight the question. You know, it's like, you know, you know, Coach, like, if if Junior was to you know, go down to Indiana. You know, we we know the clan is right there, and if something was to go down, you know, who's gonna look out for Junior? And I thought, coach, and I gave a you know, a pretty slick and so you know what I mean, He's like, you know, well,

if if we're winning, then they're gonna look out. And he said if we lose it, you know, and you know, everybody kind of laughed off, but my brother he didn't like that answer. Now and so so back up, So Coach Night when he come to visit me, he walked in with Wayne Embury and Quinn Buckner. Now Quinn Buckner, you know, undefeated, you know at thorn Ridge, undefeated at Indiana and in Wayne Embury first black general manager, you know in Milwaukee. Now he walked in, he flanked with him, right,

and he coming to recruit me. So Dick respect walking through the door. So my brother didn't like his answer, right, And and so my brother, you know, my brother was lit at the time. I mean he was you know, that's just how they was, right. And so my brother was like, hey, man, I you know, I don't like that. You know that, what you mean they gonna take care we we take care of junior, you know. And and so the conversation quickly got heated, and you know, I

you know, the voices raised and everything else. And and so everybody's like, na, no, y'all calm down. No Eve did. And so coach and I stood up. You know, my brother's like, well, we can take this outside. So Coach Night stood up and took off his jacket and started rolling up in sleeves like it's like, yeah, we could

take this outside. And everybody's like no, no, no, no. And so I look over there and my mom, right, my Mom just sitting there, real quiet, kind of nodding her head, doing like this, And I'm like, oh, she liked it. To dude, she liked it all. She's falling for it. Yeah. Yeah. So anyway, man, I'm glad they didn't go outside, as you gonna get jumped. Oh. He wouldn't have made it back in, but he thought it's

just gonna be a one on one thing. Nah, he wouldn't have made it back end, as a matter of fact. As a matter of fact, he would have got stuck up first. Yeah, stuck. Yeah, but he wouldn't have made it back in, you know, for sure. I remember I remember Bob Knight called me my senior year. Um, he called. He called my house. My mom asks the phone. She was talking to him. She's like, I'm gonna put you on speaker pall. This was his exact words. Do you

want to come to Indiana? Not? Right? Straight up? Bro. I'm like, huh, I'm like I'm gonna. Mom like I don't know. She like, excuse me, Yeah, do you want to come to Indiana? Not? And she was like, well, we'll have to give you a call back. She wasn't expecting to be so blunt. And that's all he said. Bro, yeah, never heard from again, recruiting trip. Do you want to come to Indiana? Not yeah, that's it. No, he was

straight game with it. He walked up in the house and say, look, I'm off for your son three things. Miss Now this me sitting here right, He's like, Miss Thomas, I'm asking I'm off for your son three things. He's gonna be a gentleman, graduate from college, and I'm gonna teach him how everything I knew about basketball. And I'm like, well that ain't enough where the money at, you know what I mean. He's like, and but you know, that's

how he recruited. And the thing that the thing that that my mom and I would say my sister that they really loved that. I didn't understand at that time what coach Knight was doing in the seventies and a little bit of the eighties, taking young classified as black in young boys in the United States of America, taking them down to Bloomington, Indiana, booking by a clan. Right, everybody graduated from college, everybody's doing well, everybody won championships.

And he didn't cheat, and he didn't cheat, and he didn't cheat, and that was unheard of during that period of time because going to college, he was gonna take basket weaving. You know, you didn't have to go to class. Somebody's gonna be doing your homework. Everybody who graduated from Indiana you went to school, You did your homework, and you got a real grade. Yeah yeah yeah. How long

did it take for you to buy in? Though? I mean he compromised, he I had, you know, it was like, hey man, this Hay's gonna be like, you know, one no place to go. You know, I got kicked off the team a couple of times, and and I was like, I'm leaving, I'm going home. But then I remember one of the lights at home, when no food at home, when no gas at home. So and you weren't getting no sympathy from your mom. Your mom was like, you know,

you gotta stay there. So But the thing that I the thing that I loved about Coach Night now that I'm older, is that he had the courage to coach me. He had the courage to have confrontation with me. He had the courage to make me do right when I wanted to be wrong right. He didn't let me slide,

He didn't let me get by. And it would have been easier for him to do that now that I was looking back, because I was pretty good at the time, but I didn't know how good I was as a player, right, so he let me, you know, he he basically was like, no, you you you gotta go to class. Man. If you don't go to class, you can't come to practice. You can't lay in your bed all day and think you're gonna come to practice and didn't go to class. That that that ain't happening. Now. Of course, that's what I

wanted to do. That's what we all wanted to do. So and then in terms of freedom, right like we had no plays at Indiana, we didn't have out of bounds to play. We weren't coming down calling played twenty two up, thirty two out, you know one. It was like, now you gotta get to know your teammate. And once you get to know your teammate, then you'll know if he's going left or right. But we played this this game they call passing games, similar what Golden State does.

Now that Steve Kirk from the you know, he comes from the coaching tree, right lude osan Um. You know, when you look at Ludosan when you look at pop you know, all of them really have you know, similar coaching trees and thinking philosophies, very similar to the night right. So that passing game, that that that that that uh that know your teammate, understand what your teammate's gonna do. Uh you know how we're going to attack the opponent,

how we're gonna dissect him. Uh some some teams only entered the ball on the left side of the court, or tonight you're gonna entered it on the right side, you know. Um So that was the way he made you think and play. Uh so, Yeah, And he always says to thinking man's game, mental is the physical as for as to one, And you know, if you can't think, then you you you got no shot against playing against me. Mental is too physical as for as to one. Yes, okay,

I just wanted to make sure. Yeah, it's a thinking man's game and you you have to think your way through the game, and you're gonna have him thinking about that analogy the whole. Yeah. Yeah, two year pit stop you win a champion National Championship in eighty one dropped twenty three verse, Sam Perkins and James Worthy over North Carolina. What was your favorite on the court moments in college? Was? It?

Was it that championship? Two favorites. The first favorite was February fourteenth in Iowa Mike Woodson's return because my freshman year he had back surgery. We were ranked number one. Woodson goes down, Whitman goes down, Bushi goes down, and we like, you know, we foll turing. Right, Woodson comes back and that's his first game and it's in Iowa City, and it's my freshman year and my whole my whole

time now, you know, playing for coach Night. I'm waiting for this genius moment, right, I'm waiting for him to grab the clipboard, you know, and draw up some stuff. And but I ain't seen no clipboard and like, you know, I ain't seen the clipboard like since I got there. Right, So we down, we down one in Iowa. It was what his first game back in and we called time out and now I'm like, okay, this this is the moment.

Something gotta happen. I know. We get ready to draw up a play now, right, this was the play he said, Whitson, can you make a shot? What he said, Yeah, I knock it down. Coach, he said. He called me Peewee. Say, okay, Peewee, I want you to move the ball around October. I want you to set the screen for what'son. What'son? I want you to get open, Peewee. When he gets open, I want you to hit it. Would he knocked the shot down. I'm like, on the left side, the right side,

where where's what's gonna be. I'm scared. I'm like scared. I'm like walking down on the floor. I'm like, okay, how are we gonna get the ball in right? He wants you to put everybody in place. I'm like, hey, man, just all I'm doing. So I passed it, didn't I run over there getting check and so I'm waiting for wood to wood. He come off tober sets of down screen, what'son? Comes off on the left side. I hit him boom boom,

and he banks it right off the glass. And to me, that was the most That was one of the most beautiful moments I have experienced because what he recruited me. That was my senior year. He had back surgery. You know, he's coming back, you know, and so I was like, okay, second best moment was, you know, be North Carolina in that final game. So two things happened in that game.

In the first half, North Carolina got out to a good start, and I knew we didn't had a talent to play with them, right talent for talent, they were better James Worthy, Sam Perkins, al Would that's the back line. Worthy was a number one pick. I think Perkins was like, you know, five or six and al Will was like ten or something. But North Carolina they played that platoon system. So I was just they got up and I was like, okay, we just got a hold home, fellas, because five minutes

they're gonna take Worthy out. They're gonna take Worthy and Perkins out. And when they took them out, that's when we was able to come back. But one of the biggest plays I thought in that game, clock's running down.

We got the last shot out a half and Whipman's in the in the in the right corner and I'm standing there were you know, I'm dribbling the ball, trying to you know, make sure like everybody is set doing what they're supposed to do, trying to stall time and whopmen and I make eye contact and you know, we run the clock down, kick it over the whipmen. He knocks down the shot the in the in the first half, they gave us crazy momentum going in because I think

we either went up one or was down one. We come back out the third, uh to start the second half, and then I take over. So you know that, But I thought that shot was one of the biggest moments in the game. Yeah, nineteen eighty one draft, you go number two overall to the Pistons, probably the worst team in the league. Before you got there, you knew what she was walking into though, Right, No, I didn't. You didn't,

he said, I understanding. I didn't. I didn't. I didn't. Now, you know, when you hear the worst team, you know you you don't. You have no idea what the worst team? That's like, you know what they really mean, right you? So? Um there, So there was no culture, there was no Now, I come from every place I've been, I've won, right and and so there there's rules, there's there's there's discipline, there's a way of acting, there's a way of being,

there's a way of doing things. Um and and so when I get to Detroit, those it was like, what are we doing like, how are we going to win? That's all I'm trying to figure out, is how are we going to win? And so I had to go to school, right, and where I went to school. I went to the Lakers school and I went to the Celtics school. So I started following them around. And fortunately enough for me, Magic Johnson who had just come off winning the NBA Championship and being the MVP of the

championship game. Now he like, he's like, come on, man, you with me? And I'm like, really, I'm with you. He's like, yeah, so we So now I'm I'm I'm watching the Lakers. I'm watching him, and I'm watching how how they train, how they practice, how they come together. Kevin McAll and I were friends, uh, you know since high school, played on the PanAm team together. So now I get to you know, I watch how Boston do things. mL Car you know, still talk with him today, you

know Maxwell. I mean so, so the Celtics and the Lakers really like, let me like, in their locker room. You look at all the championship celebrations in the eighties, you will see Isaiah Thomas in them locker rooms watching them celebrate. Right, Um, you know, on their exit meetings. I'm with Magic at the exit meetings, you know, when they lost to Boston in the room, in the fucking room, I'm like, I'm listening to pat Riley, you know, give his thing. Jerry West, Who's steal my man the day? Right,

Jerry West. They let me in to the sanctuary. I was one of them, right, And and so I learned. And so in learning, not only did it make me better, but it I was able to bring some things back to the Pistons in terms of, hey, if we want to win in this league, this what it looked say that again, what it looked like, right, because we had no idea. So so it's like, okay, how are you going to win in this league? You you you gotta learn, you gotta get educated, right, And and they let me in.

And so so I'm there when Magic Johnson dribble out the shot clock and they're calling him Tragic Johnson, right, and I'm in his hotel room, me Mark and this dude laying on the floor bawling, I mean just hurt ring, you know, just you know that kind of cry, right, and and and we stayed up with him until you know, bus was leaving at five thirty in the morning, and he just laying on the floor, just bawling. Right, come down to escalator, get on the bus, go back to LA.

So I get a chance to watch y'all at I get a chance to see James Worthy, right, take the ball out on the sideline inbounded Gerald Henderson steals it, right, he goes lazy. So I get to see all a heartbreak, but also get to see that bounce back. I get to see that bounce back. Right, and so when Magic loss. Right. Now, at summer, we were training, we're working out, and that dude shot me with so many bowls, right, And finally I just had to say, look, man, I'm not Larry Bird.

You got cut this shit out. But I mean he was training so hard and so now Mark and now we're going through all all stuff. Right, that's summer. That dude shot maybe a thousand free throws a day, and I'm like, right, are you sing so many free throws? But come on, man, you know, work on your jump shot.

You know, we gotta get your j right now, that dude went from being an eighty three eighty four percent jumped to ninety wow, jumped to ninety percent from the fire line, then became the MVP of the league, you know what I mean. So, so watching that and learning that, so when you say, now to Detroit Pistons, So we didn't have no culture, So what did I do? Right, It's like, Okay, this is who we are. We need

an identity. This is who we're going to become. This is how we're gonna dress, This is how we're gonna talk, this is how we're gonna look. Right, and and then bringing some stuff from the neighborhood. Right, um, you know that that that ten point program, right, you know, it's like it's like we're gonna we're gonna instill, listen to our teams. Right, there's gonna be some rules. This is how we're gonna follow. This, how we're gonna act. This's

how we're gonna march. Is how we're gonna beat. This is who we are in this NBA league and still today, this is who we are, this is what we do now. If we didn't establish that that culture, that language, that belief system, those values, you know, we we didn't have

the type of talent that LA had. We didn't have the type of talent that Boston had, But we had a belief system that was so strong that it's gonna mess you up when I say this deal, Lamb Beier believed that he can compete every single night against Kareem Abtol a strong beliefship. Come on, work with me. Think, Think about what I just said, Think about what I

just said. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean, I mean it's like that that in itself, right, Lamb Beier walking out on the floor with the belief and understanding that number thirty three in purple or number thirty three in gold, if I do what I'm supposed to do, I can beat you. M m. Nobody in the world would agree with him, and they didn't. They still don't believe it. I'm just glad the film Don't Lie, Film Don't Lie.

We just have Barkley on. And Barkley was talking about around the time you come in, how Bird and Magic saved the league. Do you agree with that? I think Bird and Magic saved the league, and I think the league took off when the Detroit Pistons showed up on the scene. I think Bird and Magic. You know what the NBA was coming out of in the seventies, um

and and how the United States was. I mean, we have to talk about that now, how the United States was for for black men in the seventies and then Bird and Magic being on the stage in the in the early eighties coming out of college and then you know, playing that you know that game again, Magic come to La Burger, going to Boston. You know, they walked into culture, they walked into a foundation, they walked into a way

of being, they walked into winning. They didn't have to you know, get a piece of paper and go to school and get educated. They walked into it. Right now, that help. But what the ratings say and what the numbers say when the league took off is whenning bad boys from the Detroit Pistons showed up. Because we showed up with a totally different kind of crowd. We had, you know, people from all different walks of life, and we started putting fifty sixty thousand people in the Silver Dome.

And then we had three rivalries. I think we're the only team that only had three rivalries, the Lakers, the Celtics, in the Bulls, right, so every time we played, every everywhere we moved, right, it was it was different. And then we didn't understand what we didn't know. So we met a gentleman about the name of Mike Orenstein with the La Raiders or the Oakland Raiders at that time what they called cross marketing. Today, we didn't know there was such a term as cross marketing. But all connection

with the Oakland Raiders. Then let us start changing all colors. So we went from the red, white and blue to the silver and black, and then we had a second jersey, we had a second uniform, you know, in the NBA really didn't own any of that. So when we walked off the stage and the Bulls walked on the stage, that's when y'all got the shooting jerseys. That's when they started changing, you know, the different color uniforms and everything else.

But the Pistons started all that. So the highest rated games in the eighties Pistons against Celtics, Pistons against Lakers, Pistons against Bulls, and they all have one thing in common. That's a Detroit Pistons to the attitude of energy, y'all brod first NBA game thirty one and eleven, crazy first Game thirty one eleven. Geez, you make the All Star Amage Rookie year two. Clearly the leader of your team.

Did that come to you naturally or like when you when you showed up they knew you was leader, or did you have to fight for that. I never thought of myself as the leader. I never thought of myself as the captain. It's you know, leadership is given. You never walk into a room and be like, I'm the leader. You know, it's they vote on it. You know who's going to be the captain. Okay, you can be the captain.

And and I was selected the captain and the leader only because they trust me, right and in that type of trust is earned, and then you have to honor it too. Like that means hold, Yeah, that means you can't go out when everybody else is going out, right, you can't. I mean, I don't know, meant that much. Yeah, yeah, you can't. You can't do the things that everybody else is doing it because you know that there's a certain amount of trust and respect that goes along with that. Yeah.

So that that first game against Milwaukee, I'm playing against you know, not Quinn Buckner. I'm playing against him. It's my first time playing against him. You know, that dude was just in my house. He went undefeated. He went undefeated in high school and undefeated in college. Still the last undefeated team right now. I'm playing against him and he like, hey, junior, how you doing. This'll be a bad night, right, And and so I remember, like the first two or three plays, I get by them and

I go down the lane. I go down the lane to make a layup. I come back down the lane again, and Bob Lanier literally I'm up in the air like this, and he goes, caught you in the air, caught me in the air and set me down and said, look, don't come down here no more. I was like, Okay, my jump shot got real good because when he when he called because when he called me, it wasn't you know, when them guys hit you, right, It wasn't like a

gentle womb, you know. It was like yeah, and they put that force behind him, and yeah, you feel that, right, dude? Set me down, man. And you know, but I had a good game that night, but I was looking forward to the next night. So you talk about that thirty one in the level. The next night, then we go home to play the Chicago Bulls and I dropped thirty in that game. Now, that's the game that I really like because not all my boys, everybody, I mean everybody there.

You know, Red Magic trip from Chicago to Boston. How long is that trip? Bust her car from Chicago to Detroit. Oh that's it's four hours and it's three and a half. Yeah, Jack can get there three yeah, yeah, so straight down ninety four. So now you know, we go to Chicago, I can say Red Magic one, all my brothers them there, you know, all I mean everybody up in the stands, you know, and my my mom and my my aunt. Like back then they didn't have them, the metal detectors.

So my mom she believed in the Second Amendment. Now yeah, Binky and my aunt got a switch blade. She carried switch blade and you and and I don't know if people remember this, but you know, like she would be sitting there talking, right and you remember tricks. They could do tricks with this play, you know, and she likes, you know, be talking to you and like twirling it all around and hitting it and them nice with it

and close it up only when they finished. And so they would bring food to the game, so they bringing their chicken and everything, and you know, and so and I'll never forget. So we um Ricky Sobers was the guard then one number fourteen. Sobers played at UNLV right, and and so we you know, I'm I'm going through my stuff. I went between my legs and that dude like hit me so hard. I damn right. You know, I folded up right because back then, you know, they

didn't like when you try to show them off. Like night. You can just go through your legs and everything else for a long time. Then they stand up and so um, I say, Man, don't hit me like that no more. You know what you gonna do a little pump? I said, okay, And so you see all them people sitting up there, so you live here, So you hit me like that one more time, you won't live here no more. Straight up, that simple. And you know had a good game. You know,

win it the year. Jordan's is the league at the time. The East has loaded yourself, m J Bird, Dominique, Moses Malone, Charles Barkley, doctor j Um. What was the Eastern Conference back in the middle of the eighties? Like every night, you see, I just took a simple war. All names you just named off. I was like Chevy, I'm sweating now, Like man, Philadelphia was so good back then, Mo Cheeks,

Andrew Tony, Doctor Ja, Moses Malone, Bobby Jones. They don't get enough credit for what they was doing in the eighties. Back then. I mean that team was and then they got Barkley, right, It just unfair, right, Bird McHale Parish, you know a Milwaukee That Milwaukee team was loaded with Marcus Johnson and all of them. So we you know, it was it was hell, you know up in there. But what what we had and what we were developing was different than all the other teams, right, all those

teams you just named. What we was developing was identity, culture, belief systems, you know, understand and you know those those those you know, those things that you carry with you for the rest of your life. Right, that's what we was building as a team. And talent wise, all those people that you just named, we didn't have that kind of talent. But what we could do is we could outscheme you and and we can adhere to a game plan and concentrate and do it for two and a

half hours. Most teams, most players, they can't. They can't concentrate for two and a half hours, right, And so when when Jordan came in, you know, in eighty four eighty five, right, you know, he was mega talented. And not only was he mega talented, but we we had never seen an athlete like that. You got to remember, like in the NBA at that time, you know, doctor j still was the best athlete. And when Jordan came in, younger than doctor Jay, I was like, Okay, he's the

next Doctor Jay. And you know when nobody jumping from the fire line and in the air and doing all the stuff around the rim that he was doing. Nobody you didn't have athletes like that, so he was. He

was a fascinating watch. So due bars and that, right, you know, we would we would be I'll never forget every time Chicago played, you know, Joe and I would be on the phone and we'd be talking because we gotta we got to play against him, right, And they were playing New Jersey in Chicago, and Joe and I, you know, we were talking and and Jordan came down on the left side, caught on the left wing, went through a couple of dribbles and then he took off on the left box and dude floated all the way

to the right box and then laid it up on the other side. That's where to God joined out on the phone and for about five minutes, Man, it was just dead, silent, dead silent. Do we just see Yeah? And then and then all of a sudden it was like, I man, I see you practice tomorrow to deal with I mean that dude jumped from the left box and was up in the air and went all the way

over to the right box and laid it up. It was like we had Magic on the show um at the end of December, and your name came up, and Magic was talking about what you and him went through and how you guys were able to sit down and and patch it up, which is beautiful, by the way, Thank you. Everyone was big fans of that. But he also said he would like to see you, would Mike patch it up? You called me after that and we had a conversation on the phone about what was going

You care to share any of that? Hey, man? You know, I just I just want some people to be honest. I got I got no problem sitting down talking with anybody, right And as you can see, you know, I'm your open book. You know I live with love, peace, truth, you know, honesty, courage, I'm you know, I stand on my square. I'm upright. You know, I'm independent, and I sit in any chair and I talk to anybody, right. But some people don't. They ain't been telling the truth

right now, anywhere, anytime publicly, I don't. Don't. Don't don't call me behind the scenes, apologizing or asking your friends to apologize. Right, you got on national television and you call me an asshole, and then you said you hated me. You said that on national television. Now, if you didn't mean it, get on national television, say that and apologize for it. Now, if you meant it, let it ride as it is. But so I called you in that same day. You know who I call? I called Magic Johnson.

Magic was on the plane. There was shooting a commercial in Atlanta. Him, Sam Jackson, everybody else. We were staying in the Four Seasons Hotel. We missed each other, right because he said he had to go, so he on the plane, right, I called him up. Magic didn't mention Michael Jordan. All right, So I'm still waiting. You know, everybody say this stuff publicly. Right, I'm gonna do this. I'm gonna do this. Somebody that all right, Well, I'm I'm the type of guy. I sit here, I talk

to you, I talk to you. It ain't a person in this unit in the States of America that I'm not willing to sit down and have a conversation with and break bread with. But if you line and throwing stones from behind the scenes, okay, that's you. But if you're honest and you upright on your square, I'm willing to deal with. Yeah. You know, so that's all I know. Now where do we go from here? I mean, you

told me something to see me. You have family that had stayed with him, and say, at one point, absolutely eight when when Jordan first came to Chicago. First of all, we were fans of his and to some extent still fans of his. My family, his family. Not only did they socialize, hang out, but as I said, you know, I little nephew that lived with him, and and everybody's still cool. Right, Ain't no, ain't no hate for Jordan.

We just want some realness, right did you just you know, like I said, you you got on national television and at nobody ain't nobody nowhere has ever got on national television and called me an asshole and then publicly said you hate me. I ain't heard that from you. I ain't heard that from you. I ain't heard that from no NBA player. And so I'm and by the way, all them years that you supposedly hated me, you voted

for me to be the president of your union. Yeah, you know, I've seen a lot of pictures of All Star games and y'all laughing at joke and it didn't look like Yeah, I'm just saying, like, you know, if that you know now now maybe you felt like that privately and I didn't know, but now that I do know. And by the way, if you didn't meet it that way, then publicly say it, don't privately say it. You know, magic, we don't need a private conversation. This man did this

on national television internationally. I have to answer this question right in every interview that I sit down, and do you asking me this question right? So now now I'm the one who's looking like, oh, why are you talking about Jordan? Why are you saying it? When you to put that out there? And now you at home or on your golf course or doing whatever you do, and now I got to answer this BS question. So if you're mad enough and you and you and you. If

you meant it, leave it as it is. But if you didn't mean it, didn't come out and clean it up the same way it came out, the same way it came out with the same intensity. You gotta respect that though. That's why I say I mean because if she was on the foot. I know I've been disrespected a lot, But if somebody dispected me on TV doing the game, but also at the end of the game, they sound like, you know what I remember I said that, let me clear this up. What we get off air,

I gotta respect that. I can't hold it. I can't be mad at him no more because he corrected himself. Are you you said? Magic and I sat down and squash whatever we had publicly publicly, Magic Johnson apologize. He said, I'm sorry if I hurt you. When I hurt you, I didn't mean that all. I'm good with that. Yeah,

I got to accept that and we move on. But if you're gonna let this linger out here in this basketball world, and you got everybody else talking, but you ain't saying something, Matthew meant it, stand on it, stand on it. But if you didn't mean it, clean it up.

You mentioned, uh, you know, obviously there's no secret that you and Magic were we best to friends at one point, and what did it mean to you, to you guys to be able to sit down and clear that air for you, it meant a lot, not only to me, but we didn't know, and I didn't know how much it would mean to all of us, to the world. I had no idea, you know, because when you when you're going through that, you're just thinking about yourself. You're

not thinking about really how it's affecting other people. And I just had the same thing happened with Karl Malone and I right and by way, thank you, Ken, you love you, sacking all strong, um, But you don't realize what the other person is carrying, right you you're feeling,

you know, yourself in your grief and you're hurt. But the other person who's carrying that guilt, when you have the opportunity and you can relieve them of that, not knowing that that's how much they carry in right that that that was a powerful moment not only for he and I, but it was a powerful moment for the world, which we didn't know. So it's like two moments we've had that we didn't realize what we was really doing.

That ended up changing a lot of stuff like when he and I like first hugged and kissed, right, ah, oh you know what they It's like I can't I can't meet my brother and give him a hand shake. Whenever I met family, it was always an embrace, right when we did when we did that in the eighties, two men, right, black masculinity, you know, and being called into question. You're not supposed to you know, you're supposed to have this, you know, this toughness about you and

all this stuff. Well, when we broke down that barrier, we didn't realize what we had really done. Now when we saw each other to day, first thing we did we hug you. I can't wait to hug you when I see you. Yeah, let me. And then then then we hugged for a minute because I wanted to feel you, right, And but back then that was so controversial. Right now, us coming together forgiving compassion, love, friendship, right, it's another powerful moment, not knowing that that's what we were doing, right,

you know. So, and I'm glad that he and I got to share that. I mean, you mentioned and obviously this is going to come up to You mentioned you got a chance to sit down with Carl at this last All Star in Utah. What you know, how did that go? Man? For years, Man, I wanted to do something to call man. I know when you mentioned some people might have met, but Kmart told this story about how he was watching that game on TV when he was a youngster, and and and got him back for you. Yeah,

and I'm saying thank you. Yeah what I'm saying, so you said thank you for people might have but let me but let me say, let me say why I said thank you, and then let me let me go further with that because for years, I dude put a mark on me, man, And and for years I was like, I'm I'm I'm I'm gonna get my mark back. You know, you put a scar on me, and I'm get my scar back. And I get my scar back. We even but you know, not my though my scar back, believe

you know, straight up. But and and so fast forward, right, you know, I'm carrying this around for years, years, for years, last dance come out and and you know every you know, the narrative was, you know, everybody hated I said, you know, nobody wanted him around, Nobody wanted him to be a part of it so far. So so that was what's being played. So now on the background, I'm getting calls

from everybody. I'm getting calls from the Shock Hit, the Chicago Bulls team, teammates, people in the Chicago Bulls front office. I'm getting calls from people who was on the Dream Team, saying, hey man, that ain't me. You know how I feel about Okay? Cool? Then I don't get called from call and I'm like and he says, hey man, And this was years ago, saying hey man, I just want to tell you, like, you know, I hear all this stuff about the Dream Team. You know, I car talk. I'm

a man, I'm a real man. I don't you know. I ain't handing behind nothing. You know, I I didn't have nothing to do with that. You're not making a team. As a matter of fact, you know, I'm speaking for Stockton. Then I we and he said this on camera. He said, if there was a secret meeting, me and Stockton weren't a part of those secret meeting trying to keep you off the team. That wasn't us. So now you know my next question is, you know so man, why you hit me like that? And this is what I have

to respect. And and Kenyan, I hope you can respect this too, brother, because and and you know, and all my people in Chicago and in Detroit everywhere. I hope y'all can respect this about Karl Malone because what he said was, Hey, look, I I meant to hit you. That's how we played. You come down the lane, you're gonna you're gonna get some physicality. So I meant to do it, he said. But I but I didn't mean to do that. And I apologize because I didn't mean to do that. Hey, I have to accept that, you

know what I mean? Because that now, if he would have been like, I'm a tough guy. You know, that's how we played, and yeah, I'm a lady blah blah blah. But at the same time, now now he gets emotional and he started crying. And you know when people started crying, Now you crying, yeah, yeah, So you never know what people dealing with. Yeah, And so I I was only looking at it from my point of view. I never knew the type of guilt that he was walking around carrying.

And so by me saying, hey man, it's Okay, I love you, brother, We're good man. He said, you just took the whole weight off my show. Now, I never knew he was walking around with Wait. I just thought he was walking around like, yeah, I'm a tough dude. Look what I did to you and and somebody else. I'm a dude. But that ain't the way he was thinking. And when he said, yeah, I meant to hit you, but I didn't mean to do that. Now, that last part I got to accept, right, And that's you know

that that was real. So I respect that mid eight is mid to late eight as you start winning, start going on the role. We clicked. We became one, everybody on the same page page, Yeah, yeah, yeah, And I don't care who you sit in this chair. If he's a piston, he's gonna tell the same story. He's gonna act the same way. He's gonna care himself the same way. We still got a group chat. John said, nah, nah, no, this this this is who we are from day one. Right,

That's what clicked. It wasn't like we became better basketball players. We became like this as opposed to being five individuals. Right now, punch is more profit than the slap all the time, Bruce Lee talking too. And when you and when you put some when you put some energy in there behind that, and that's what we was walking up in there with, right, all force. Right, teams had no they had no shot, right because all allur togetherness, all force.

It was intimidating. So when you say what made it come together is those sacrifices, those individual sacrifices that we all was making, that community, that communication, that crying, that breakdown, those heartaches, you know, all that that that that staying together and then you you become one. And when we became one, we we're probably we're definitely the most misunderstood team that's ever played in the NBA. And we're the most misunderstood team that's ever played in the NBA. And

I say team because we were a team. The NBA, you know, wants to promote individuals. You know, my whole team, you know my you know, you know our team to the ninth tenth man name, yes, our team, right, And that's how we promoted ourselves, right. The NBA wanted to give you the individual we like, Nah were coming to the captains meant we came to the captains meeting one time and our whole team came to them, and so

that that type of togetherness, that type of chemistry. Now, these are the facts our first championship in eighty nine, because they didn't understand us, and we got the best record in the league. But we don't have one All Pro on All Team. I didn't make first team. I didn't make second team. I didn't make third team. Joe didn't make first team, second team or third Robin didn't

make first team, second team or third team. Lamb Beard didn't make first Now, we got the best record in the league, and we swept the Lakers, right, And they say the Lakers was hurt, but they don't never say I was hurt when they beat us, Right, you know that, But you know and and and the other point I want to make is the sacrifices in terms of team. Not only did we not have anybody make All Pro, but nobody averaged twenty points a game. I led with nineteen.

This one had eighteen two, half seventeen from the half fifteen. That they're the balance. If we were a team, who are you gonna who are you gonna stop? One night? I get thirty five, right game five to go to the to the to to beat Boston the year before, I had thrown the ball away. Come back in eighty eight, we back in game five again, Junior, what you're gonna do? I got magic in my mind. I got James Worthy in my mind because I didn't seen them get up.

Come back to that game five. At game five in Boston, I dropped thirty five, thirty six, had like a great game, come back Game six on the close out game you know what I mean, points I scored and close our game nine. You know who got hot? Benny Michael Wave Benny Benny got hot, and it was like, all right, go go Now if we was playing analytic basketball and playing selfish basketball, hey man, I gotta get my twenty, get my I gotta keep my average up right. And

so that balance that you talk about. We can't beat the Lakers in the Celtics individually, but our team can we beat the team? Hell yeah? A lot of people say Boston Celtics, the team yeah you played against was the probably the most fundamentally sound team ever to play in the NBA. Um you was able to battle with them? How good were they? They were? That? They were that? Not not only were they that, but they were so smart. I mean Walton Bird with cal Parish Angel Dennis Johnson.

One point in time, they had Nate Archiball, Scott Webman. I mean, I mean they were just loaded with talent but extremely smart. In one year they went forty and one at home. How about that, it went forty and one at home. That's how good they were. Now, now that's how good we were. Okay, arguably they say that's one of the best teams to ever play in the NBA,

if not the best one. That was eighty eighty six eighty seven, right, and then the Lakers, right they you know, one and two, those are the two best teams they say that ever play. Well, that's who we beat Random Both down. That's who we beat Random Both down. That's how good we were. Yeah, well, you know right, well, you know like like like like you say, y'all, y'all the only ones that beat all three of them, Mjo, Magic and Bird name somebody else will beat all three, y'all,

all three of them. And let me let me put enough something to it. Yeah, let me add something to it. When we beat them, they were all MVPs of the league. Magic was MVP of the league. Jordan was MVP of the league. Bird was MVP of the league when we beat him. Is right there? Give me give me a little bit more about the LB though, lad bird man,

give me a story man about LB Man. So I don't know if people, I don't know how this is gonna play with America, right, but let me just tell you what this dude told me one time, right now, all back line. At one time it was Kelly Tripuca, Bill Lambier, Kim Benson, three white dudes. Two of might have heard of all right. So we walked out on the court and he said who guarding me? And I said, well, hey, you know, we both from Indiana. We're talking stuff. Me

and his mom had a close relationship in college. His mom would write me like notes, was even writing me notes like when I was in the pros, like you know, good luck everything else. Right, So Larry's always called me cheesy, Right, He's like, cheesy, who guard me? And I was like, you know, I got Kelly, got lamb I got I got Benson. He's like, you ain't got no brothers like you. He's like, you disrespecting me. That's what he said. That's exactly what he's saying, he said, hey man, you keep

putting no white dude ony better straight disrespect right. Don't put no white dude though, So check this out. So the next year we come back, I got somebody for your ass, right, who you got Rob? He say? Okay, he's a little better, he say, but don't never put no white dude on me because that is disrespectful. Okay. Now, I don't know how America's gonna feel about that, but I think he said in his Sports Illustrated too, Yeah,

you can go get the quote I've heard. I heard other people talk about lad Bird and I had conversations with people like John Sally and he said the same thing. He was black. Yeah, I was like, man, he walked on the court, he was black straight, hey man. But that's who he played with, you know, that's what I heard. He played with the garbage So the garbage trust workers. Um in um story is uh in French lique. You know, he he grew up, you know him and Quinn Buckner, right,

you know, so he grew up. You know even though French League. You know that's that's kind of Larry. You know, he he ain't in all that, but he like you know, did his own thing, but you better put somebody on me that. And yeah, he ain't got no melon tonight. He can't guard me. He can't guard me that you disrespected my game. And even if he got some melon,

he go have a long night. But you know what though, But you know what though, I know he walked out on the court one time somebody said to get this white boy, and he can't guard me, and Larry served him, so I'm pretty sure he heard that before. And they they used to talk so much trash man. So I remember we were playing them, uh in the elimination game in Joe Louis Arena, and you know, end of the game,

they up like eight to nine. They didn't won the series, and you're gonna try to take that last shot, right and and mchael said, I hope you make this last shot because it's your last one of the scenes. While I'm in the air the damn claim I missed it, you know. But they just talked so much trash man. And if you go back and you watch that the Lakers Celtic Um documentary, you will see how much trash

they was talking to. I don't know if it was worthy or magic was at the fire line and and he missed the free though an mL car walked across the fire line. Yeah, man, And and I remember, I don't know if it was eighty four eighty five. So I'm following this series back and forth. The the Lakers win in Boston and they just come up in there and they gainst the Boston like, you know, because Boston was supposed to be the physical team. The Lakers was

supposed to be showtime. And you know, so Lakers came up in them just you know, boom boom, pounding and and you know, so Lair of Bird the next day, you know, he called my team, you know, called him sissies and everything else, you know, all the newspaper. Right. So, now they come back. I think it was game five here, and I mean it is. I think that's the game that McHale Grand Rabbits threw them out of there, right. Yeah.

So so now I'm watching all this right and I'm sitting baseline and they enter it in the Bird on the on the right side of the court, Bird on the baseline, and he dribbling down and Magic come to double team and I'm like, no, no, no, he ain't getting ready to shoot because now I'm studying, I'm like, you know, now I know when Bird's gonna do a step back. I'm I'm like, no, I'm my mind like,

don't come double, don't come double. And he came in double and he kicked it out to Dennis Johnson and Dennis Johnson knocked it down right from the foul line. Boom game and Boston beat La here. But those type of you know, rivalries going back and forth. I mean the way they was fighting, and and I I felt so sorry and bad for Bird because the way Michael

Cooper was guarding him. Man, I mean, dude, you you can see Michael Cooper's fingernails all on Birds, like you know, one time he poured his his shirt and all you saw was Coops fingernails like and but man, they they was going at it. And so now they go back to Boston and Burr was real clever. So they have an out of bounds play where balls balls here on the right side, and he's coming up to set an upscreen as he comes, you know, instead of it being a pin down. Yeah, he said no, he comes up

to set an upscreen. But when he comes to set an upscreen, now you're taking the ball out and that's the corner. And as he said in the upscreen, the defenders in front of him, and that dude flared to the corner money ball and caught it. And when he

let it go, I was like, he ain't missing. It was hit the back of the rim, but it was it must the ball must have stayed in the air for about five seconds, I mean, just spinning perfectly right boom hit the back, bounced off and I was like, Hey, God was with y'all to day late, because I mean it was so clever of a play that that he was able to up slide ball there. Ball came in and he was able to just right in front of

the Laker bench. And if you go back and you look, you'll see pat rity like everybody was playing, I mean every the whole gym. Man. When he called the ball, you know when some people catch the ball to right the whole gym, and when he missed, it was like, yeah, give me something quick on Robin. That's athlete I've ever seen, probably in the NBA, not the highest jumping athlete, but just the best athlete. Like I've never seen anybody who he ran that fast and then quick jump like that.

So my first time playing with him, literally he gets the rebound kick to me on an outlet pass, right, And so when I get on an outlet, now I'm dribbling into the middle of the floor to set the break. As I'm dribbling into the middle of the floor, Now this dude just threw it to me. He down there underneath the back waving for and I'm like, how the hell he gets So of course I kick it up, but adjusting to his speed was the first thing I had to do. And then I never saw anybody scientifically

break down rebounding the way Dennis Robin did. So our first you know, our first couple of games, you know, we be in the layup line, and then he stopped and he just you know, standing under the rim, and you know, used to be you lay it up and then after you do your layups, then you start taking a little short pull up shots, right, And so whenever we started taking short pull up shots, he was stopped.

And so finally, you know, like, what you're doing, man, get in line, like you know, likes He's like, no, I'm I'm counting. So Dennis was a little strange. Anyway, I'm like I ain't gonna even respond to that. Yeah, like I'm counting, right, and and and and so my mind everywhere right, and so finally, you know, now we break up and he's still standing under basket, right, and he's just looking at everybody ball and I'm like, what you counting? Like I didn't, I didn't ask what you counting?

I said, what you're doing? He say, I'm counting. I'm counting the spins on the ball. He said, when you shoot your ball, spend like three times. Joe sometimes spend four. This one spent. This dude was counting the rotations on the ball on every player. He knew how long he was gonna be in the air, how many times it rotated, where it was gonna hit, where it would bounds. I had never seen nobody breakdown rebounding like that. That was kind of insane. That was that he was. He was

a genius man. Dennis Rodman was a flat out genius when it came to basketball. I remember when he went to Chicago and they said, well, are you gonna have a hard time learning the triangle? He goes, it's a triangle game. Five after the after the inbound turnover, yep um talk about this series and Louison and you say Bird wouldn't be all at if he was black. All that little stuff you know that went on. But and

after that, y'all went on to win three finals. And I want to talk about that too, because two, I mean, excuse me, two it should have been three. Should have been three. Yeah, and talk about that too. That'll be the second question about do you believe that Pistons are a dynasty. We're not a dynasty because technically we didn't win three, right, So is that what que because there's no written rules. So we had a debate with Freddie Gibbs who said, you guys were three, that makes you

with the several runs, that makes you well. To me, it's about your your dominance and your banners, right and even and even though you even though you there's reasons why you didn't get that third banner, right, we would have been the first team in all era to win three. Only two teams. If they say the eighties is the greatest basketball era, right, only two teams went back to back. It was Pistons in the Lakers as great a team as the Celtics, where they didn't go back to back.

Only two teams went back to mack now um our. So are we a dynasty? We didn't get the third in Chicago was the first team to get three after the step. So Chicago, you can say, okay, what they did those three years and then came back and did you know, So that's when dynasty stopped. Dynasty talk starts. Lakers Celtics. You have to give them dynasty talk because of their historical relevance. What Magic and Bird walked into,

they walked into ready made dynasties. Already they were already dynasties, right. Celtics were already a dynasty. Lakers was already a dynasty. What now what I would say, who's been the most impactful team on the NBA, It's a Detroit Pistons. When you look at our style of play, pick and roll basketball, stretched five in lamb beer, small guards, you know, shooting from the perimeter. We didn't have a post up player. The way we influenced the game look ays like myself.

We weren't supposed to win championships. As a matter of fact, when I came into the league. All the point guards, Magic Johnson, Reggie Thiz, Paul Prescy, you know, everybody was six sixty nine. The dudes won. We weren't supposed to win, right, And as a matter of fact, I'm still the only one that's won this way. Now, Steph Right has won in Golden State, established the dynasty, but his playing style is different than mine totally. I scored and assisted, he scores,

so two different ways of impacting. But so Golden State what they did dynasty. But the most impactful and the most fluential team that's played is a Detroit Pistons. You played D two. I still hold a record on both ends. And when you look at the playoff record in terms of steals, I think one year I had sixty six steals in a playoff run. Damn, I'm gonna say that again. It's a thief. Yeah, I was a real thing. That's

a lot of defense right there. But you know, I think we've influenced the game the most from an offensive standpoint and also from a defensive standpoint. And then I would also say from a guard playing standpoint, the way guards played. Now every team they don't have a Magic Johnson type guard. They don't have a Michael Jordan type guard. They don't have a Dennis Johnson type guard. Every team right now has an Isaiah Thomas, Joe Dumars, Vinnie Johnson type com. You may not like it, you may not

want to acknowledge it. It is true, but those are the facts.