Grant Hill | Ep. 139 | ALL THE SMOKE Full Episode | SHOWTIME Basketball

That's when he first started working on the book three three years ago to three years ago, three years ago, and we finally got him. You see, the book is out now they should you pick it up. But we got the one and only, my god big brother. I appreciate It's an honor and a privilege. I appreciate your patience. Come on, tak five years right this moment. It's just an honor to have you on. Um, let's get right to it. Talk about the book. What it's about. It's

a boy, my life and my journey. Um, you know, going back growing up, dukiears Detroit, the injuries, going through that whole ordeal. I felt like getting in the Hall of Fame. That's a moment when you're going to be naturally reflective. You know, we go through life and as an athlete, you gotta go and just like like next you gotta just you don't get a chance to really reflect on what you're doing. But that moment, that celebration, it was like, you know, I need to do this,

I need to write a book. And then you know, took a minute in the process and in COVID and you know, whatever the case may be, but it was it was an incredible exercise. I think everybody should go through the process. We all got a story. I think we get older, we go back and look at our lives, we learned the lessons. We can see things from an older perspective. I think it's about being vulnerable, it's about being introspective. Like it to me, the process of the

book I got learned. It might sound crazy, but I learned more about myself. And I think we spend so much time, you know, we play, and you gotta stay in the moment and you keep every day you're fighting, you know, every day somebody's trying to take your spot. And then you retire and you're like, hey, what's next. We're all hustling trying to figure things out, and so we don't look back and we don't look back all

the time and live in those moments. And so anyway, I don't want to get too deep on that, but like to me, um, it exceeded my expectations of of what I learned about myself and my growth and to share that and to be comfortable putting it all out there was you know, it's opening that door, really opening that door. And like you said, y'all both stories down the pipeline. Yeah, after watching the finals, everything that's going on right now, what's your what's your opinions so far?

You know, Golden State, I don't want to stay dominated, but they've won seven quarters, you know, two games eight quarters and that fourth quarter Game one got away from them. They got to be kicking themselves right now. Um, but the way they came out in game two, Um, they were able to take away the you know, the others. So like Boston hasn't played well at home throughout this series and they've been up and down. They'll have a good game and then follow up with a bad game.

So you know, I said, all along. I think Golden State in six I still think that. I still think Golden State will figure it out. I think Clay will play better. Um I like this Boston team though. I like the way they defend. They got a toughness about them. Tatum's gotten better, um Brown, I mean the way they played together. It reminds me a little bit of like what could have been with me and t mac if

I had been healthful. But um no, I mean I think Golden State, which is incredible thinking what they've been through the last three years to get back. And this might be and this is no disrespect towards Golden State, but this might be their most at least talented roster of all the teams they had going to THEE. I was gonna say most meaningful. Okay, yeah, you're definitely definitely don't agree with you. I agree with you. You know what I mean they had I think we led them before.

Obviously their core was great and young, but they had a strong veteran bench and that's what they made that dynasty run for. Then to lose Katie, Clay gets hurt, Steph gets her, They fall flat on their face. To be able to read like teams don't rebuild that fast. Remember step said we're gonna be a problem next year. They didn't make the play in last year, you know what I mean, So for them to bounce back and get I think this will probably be one of the

most meaningful ones to them in my opinion. I agree. I agree. You know it looks and I went through it, you know, my injury and all that, and I'm sure we're getting into it. But when something's kind of taken away, you turn to appreciate the value with more and so I know Clay obviously what he's going through. But it's a feel good story, and you know, I think everyone likes to see them get back to the mountaintop. I know it's good for ratings when gold States there, but

it's uh, it's been a good series. I think Boston's gonna win another game or so. But I think I think Golden State went great learning experience too though. For Boston, you know that they're getting a great taste to me on on how to do it on the biggest stage, you know what I mean. They had a media success tatums rookie or you make the Eastern Finals, Lebron beat you took a while to kind of figure it out. Email you dugga shout out, email you dug a first year coach to kind of get his hands on the

team and be able to form them so fast. Took a half a season, and they've been the best team in the league the second half of the year. So I think it's gonna be a great learning experience. I mean, obviously it's never promised. We all know that going back to the finals has never promised. But I think they're gonna learn a lot from this finals obviously. Yeah. Look, I mean there was a lot of criticism this year early on. Could could those guys co exist? They were

seventeen and nineteen before the new year. Um, But they figured it out and all that. You know, as we know, you go through tough times, it just it builds s grit, it builds resolved and they got a lot of runway in front of them. And so this team, you know, it's not good for my Hawks, but this team is gonna be for real for for many years. How do you think you would be in this ror your game? You know, I think I think with the spacing and then now they've taken a little bit of physicality out

of the game. I think I could. It's just more open. You think about it. Back in the day you have big guys in the paint clogging up and I like that you was still dunking on them though. Yeah, so I mean, you know, you know, is so nice the league. You already know that, like like when you look bad. Like we we were in Detroit. We were having a game like, we didn't run, we played methodical, we didn't get up and down like it is now. So yeah, man, and the money and the money money, so but you know,

I mean I enjoyed my time. It was. It was a different league. The games evolved, the shootings. But I mean there's a lot of things that are better. There's some things I don't like about the current league. Um but um yeah, man, I mean y'all mean to do right here in this era fun no question size for us. Man. Look, I'm sorry. I know you played with Draymond. Every time I see Draymond, I say this, but I'm like Draymond, you checked in the game, I would have been dropped

three most to you. I don't know how he like, he's like a rim protector and he's in there. How tall is six But he gets it done. Man, I don't you know. But anyway, it was a different league, man. But yeah, one player, you think, one player you want to play with today? I mean right now. Obviously he's getting up there and things are a little bit crazy in l A. But I would have liked to play with Lebron. And I don't know Lebron like that. I mean, we've always been good and but I don't I'm not

in his circle like that. But um, I think everybody that plays with him, he's like a glue guy. Guys that play with them love him like he's inclusive. Um, you know, he he thinks the game at a high level. I also think no one's endured as much hate. We talked about that, Yeah, the hype and what he's done, but just you think about, like Jordan didn't have to experience that when we played in the nineties. It was talk radio, maybe the newspaper, but you didn't hear the noise,

you didn't hear the slander. And now for someone like him, the face of the franchise, who's been so good, but he's got to endorsed so much. Justna we all get it. I'm sure you guys, So let me just I got sorry about math. So I'm sorry, man, I'm getting off. So when Twitter, when Twitter first came out, I think

we were in there. Maybe it was Instagram, I can't whatever, so mad, you know, somebody might say something slipped the Matt on Twitter, and Matt would come back at him like no, no, no, Let'm taking We're gonna be in your city on this day and we're staying at this hotel. Meet me at seven am in the lobby. He pulled me to the side one day. You stop that, but so he wanted all the smoke, but like literally, like I was like yeah, but like, you know, just it

was around that time the game was changing. But we hear all that and we're adults, we're older, we're we're you know, I'm almost be fifty this year. But d young kids, man, Like I think it does affect them a little bit when they hear all that and they're still impressionable, there's still trying to find their way. So

I don't envy that. And I think Lebron has been sort of the poster boy at that and so I admire that he's been able to just you know, you don't know, he's winning, you don't know he's doing, you know, but he he handles all that and handles it well very well. Yeah. Uh. Born in Dallas, Texas. Uh, your dad was a Pro Bowl Super Bowl champ with the running with the Cowboys there the last time they won the Super Bowl. Don't do that. Don't do that. Mom

was successful business. Only child. Um, football, you're always in the mix as a youngster football. Talk about those times growing up as an only child in that environment. Yeah. So I was the only child of two only children, and um, so it was just us and but you know, football was my first love and grew up around it. I was I was named by Roger Starback. So my dad, my mom and dad were expecting a girl. And obviously I'm not a girl. Um, so my dad can't make

up his mind. And so I was baby boy Hill for like three days and Starback came to the hospital and you know, came up with the name Grant, named after my paternal grandmother's maiden name. Um. And so we moved to d C. And you know, that rivalry, particularly in the late seventies early eighties, it's always been intense. But it was the Redskins were good cowboys coming off the seventies, so I was a die like I'm a

cowboy fan like die Hard. That was tough being in d C and being he's not a come on all teams. That's a nemesis right there. But look, I was on the I was on the parade on the float when the Redskins won, and I think it was eight two eighty three they beat the Dolphins. So I was on

the float. Dave Butts, who was the a lineman. I went on the float with him and his family, and I remember how proud of was because under my jacket had a cowboy shirt off and so that was but but football was everything, man, and my dad wouldn't let me play. He wouldn't let me play until I got the high school and so, um that killed me. And you know, I resented it, and uh and so I kind of got away from it. And by the time I was in high school, you know, I wanted to play.

I was in basketball, I was all in, but football was my first love. Question when did you realize basketball can take your places? I first, I first fell in love with basketball. Eighty two Final four, Jordan hit that shot. Jordan North Carolina Georgetown. We we bought a Beta Max. We taped that game, and so that was when I fell in love. And then a couple of years later,

my dad and I started going to Final four's. So when Georgetown won in eighty four and we went every year from maybe four to eighty eight, that was a little you know, father's son bonding or whatever. And so I think for me it was probably like a you I was thirteen and we went to St. Louis. First game we played, we played Webber Super Friends, and I talked about it in the book. Like my dad he was he saw that he saw all these guys, he saw us, and he was like, I'm gonna get my

speech ready for the case they lose. And we smacked him. We beat him, and and and so then that tournament we won the national championship. And so at that point, I'm like, you know what, like seeing myself gauging myself against other kids. Alan Henderson was at Jamal Mashburn and these guys all made it to the NBA. Year old. You say, we have a thirteen, But here's the thing I was. I was young for my grade. So I

started college or high school at thirteen. I started college at seventeen, so I should have been probably you know what I'm saying. But I was going into high school, and so I played varsity as a freshman. Well, those guys were grade and so when I came back the next year, I was like, I was, I had surpassed all of them. We lost in the finals. I still got the m v P. And so that was when around that time it was like, Okay, I got a chance to to I wasn't thinking the NBA, but I

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What was your recruiting process? Like you know it was good, it was you know, I mean for me, it was it was. It was Carolina Georgia that was with the two schools, and I love dad wants you to go UNC. Yeah, mama wants you to to go to ourtown. That's right. So we we had we had we had, we had season tickets so we would go to Georgia games. And I don't know if you remember, Michael Jackson played was point guard, so he went to my high school. He used to

work for my mother in the summers. My mom introduced pat Ewing to his wife. So I was so I was entrenched for Georgia, like I was all in um. Like we all were I think at that time black team. I thought it was I thought it was an HBCU back. I didn't realize it was like I didn't realize it was a private school. But so Georgetown, Carolina, Michigan, Virginia and Duke and I made my first visit and it was two Duke and Coach K just kind of blew

me away. And I knew right then that I wanted to be there, and and the genius to coach K and I know, you know, love hate Duke and all that. And obviously now he's had he had great success at the end and coach the Olympic team, but his ability to get people to buy in. He wasn't a great xCE and O coach, but like if he sat, he looked you in the eye, like you believed in him. And that was his genius, getting everybody to kind of like buy in to him and buy into one another.

And so Duke dude really was my faith. But like, you know, it just felt right, and you know, made that decision, and you know, unfortunately we we made history, you win titles in the famous Christian laden shot. How big was that moment? Man? It's crazy, you know, It's crazy to think that was thirty years ago and people still people still talk about it. But Um, Christian was a great college player. I mean Alonso Shack, Um, I mean everybody he faced. He dominated Shack twice and he

um and we had a good team. I mean, Bobby was a great college point guard. I was you know, I was a good player. He had three he had three guys in the College Basketball Hall of Fame and so um. So those moments were incredible. I don't I don't think we realized why we were doing it, the significance of what was happening. We were just trying to win. We were I was nineteen, I was a kid. And but that passed the later that shot Um later didn't miss the shot the whole game later, it was cocky.

Later was like he talked trash um. He also had a He was a great teammate as well. I remember we had a game I talked about in the book. We had a game we went to Buffalo to play Canisius and he was a game for him, going back to his hometown. And at halftime he had like one or two shots, and Coach K's like, like, Christian, what's going on? Like, this game is for you. You act like you don't want to play, and he's like, I want my hometown to see how good my teammates are.

And so you know, you you're coming back home college player of the Year, you won't try to show out. But he was trying to show us out. And so he you know, you don't hear about that side of Christian. You just here the you know, the crazy, and there was a lot of craziness. But um, but he was. He was a great competitor, you know, he he and he and he did his work. He did his thing with all the noise and knowing how everybody feel about Duke, is the brotherhood tight enough to block out the noise

and stay strong? You know? Yeah? I mean it's funny, man, because I don't think we were aware of what people's perceptions were back then a Duke and I looked at Duke no different than I looked at Wake Forest, Georgia Tech, Georgetown. These are p wise that have good basketball teams. And so I get it with the you know, us beating Vegas and the fan five and obviously Jalen's documentary and how they felt towards us. But I wasn't aware of that, Like honestly, like we we got along with every like

you know, web was my guys. I talked some stories about Webb. And then when we're in high school, he used to come visit me in Virginia. Um, you know, we didn't have social media and we need the newspaper back then. So we were in Durn. We go to Durn, we go to cookouts, barbecue's, barbershot. Everybody showed love. So I don't think I was aware that there was this stigma. Yeah, like this now, I should have known better, because I didn't like the Celtics for the very reason people didn't

like us. I was a Laker fan, and I identified with the Lakers. But I think because we had really good white players and had a very later parly, maybe I fit this, like you know, my parents and you know, people thought what they thought about me. I think that might have contributed to the narrative. But at the time, like I was totally oblivious to that narrative and and not until years later, I even thought the hate towards Duke later on was because Duke has success like the

Yankees or like um, you know, Cowboys. I didn't realize. I didn't really realize that you could have used a better example. But I feel you you know, you know, and so but I get it now, like I understand, and it was an interesting time and you know, and so you know, I get the had the brotherhood strong. Coach k moved on. You know, Shires recruited well, um, you know, we we hope to stay relevant, man, That's that's that's the main thing. Ninety four draft, you got

number three overall to Detroit. What are you hearing leading up to the draft? I mean, Glenn Robinson, Jason Kidd yourself, what are you here leading up to their You're hearing one to three? So this was this was crazy. So Glenn, Glenn was Glenn was incredible in college thirty a game, like, I mean, he was. He was unreal, man, And I think he's underappreciated that people don't. They came into the first first year in the league scoring twenty one a game.

So at the at the draft lottery, Mike Dunlevy, who was the coach of GM, puts up his jersey. So that's a sign they're gonna take him. So I figured know Dallas had the number two pick that had Jimmy Jackson, Jamal Mashburn. So they're gonna They're gonna take j Kidd. Was was the right right decision. So Detroit to me, they had Lindsay, they had Alan Houston. That felt like the right fit. But Milwaukee wanted me to come in

and work out for him. I didn't want to go, and my agent was like, that's the number one pick. You gotta go out of respect. So I went there. I didn't want to be there. I didn't want to be in Milwaukee. I dogged the workout. Mike Dunley. He put me through this like he was. I was doing laughs and suicide. He was killing me. And then he wanted to play me one on one coach Dunley, and so I'm like, so we checked ball and I'm standing under the basket. He said the free thing. He said,

you're not gonna guarden me. I said, I don't think you can make that, and man, he hit like ten in a row on me, man like I wouldn't but I wouldn't garden and uh, and I was like, what is he doing? Like you know, but you know, he wanted to see me compete against him, which I didn't get. But no, I didn't go. I don't even want to be there, and so you know this, yeah exactly, but um, but Detroit was where I wanted to be, and I felt like they had won recently, and you know the

colors red, white, and blue. I felt was good, you know, good for my feelers. So I mean, he's right, you had a nice catalog of of Nike's over at Duke. What made you choose Feli because they were obviously a lesser known brand of so let somebody say what happened? Man? So so it was crazy. So I'll go out to Nike and you know, you go out there for your recruiting trip to take it to the store, you get all this stuff. So Phil Night, we obviously know his

his genius. He was thinking about the Far East and he was like, man, if I could go into China and penetrate that market and there's a billion plus people that I can get shoes on them, like he was. He was talking about this in this meeting, and he wanted me to be via satellite the Great Wall of China for the draft and like that would be a way to break into that market. And I was like, no, I want to be I want to be I want to be with David Stern. You know what I'm saying, Like,

that's a dream. We all dreamed that to getting drafted and that whole thing. And so but I tell that story like that's where his head was at. But when it's started negotiating, the money wasn't like it wasn't fit in the vision, you know what I'm saying. And so I went over reluctantly over the meat Fela and I knew they had mashburn, but I know we we went through, we toured the facility and we sat in the boardroom and they had this this like proposal and on page

two was the money. And I turned that page and I was like, oh my god. I was like, you know the money that they were offering, like the guaranteed base salary and the Royal team. I was like, like, you said, get that bag. You're not the type of person to talk about this, but I just kind of want to have context because it can you explain what kind of money it was at that time compared to maybe what some of the guys may be getting today.

So Nike was off for me about five hundred thousand and Philo was basically it was a five year, fifteen million dollar day. It was more money. So that was a guaranteed royalty, and the shoe ended up exceeding I think everyone's expectation. But I was like, hey, you know, to this day, still selling, I still get a royal teacher. Yeah. Uh. First impression, Uh, it's it's in Detroit. It's the end of the bad boy era and now you're coming in to be the face of the franchise. Yeah. You know.

It was crazy, man, because the team had won twenty games. I came in. There was a void in the league. MJ had retired. I think the league was looking for a face. I played in a hundred and twenties and of my games at Duke and all but five of them on national TV, so people, I think knew who I was, and I came out the gate and I was I was like, I came out the gate like

I came out the gate. I think I got five, ten and five my first game against the Lakers, and like my first ten fifteen games, I was twenty more than twenty a game. I was calling my boys like, man, the NBA is easy, man like, and like, look, you know, until they get a Scott report on you and figuring out. But um, one thing that that helped me was that that summer before my freshman or my rookie year, you played pick up ball and then pick up ball, and you know I used to. I used to play with it.

You know, I'd come down my my My favorite guy was the Pearl joined the Pearl. Kenny Anderson had great handles. I used to trying to be like Tim Hardaway Chris Jackson. So I would play with the ball, but when I played in the games, I would turn my back like like magic and and big guard. And so Quinn Snyder was like, man, you need to play like this in the league, like what you're doing out here and pick up You need to play this way, not turning your back.

And so I didn't, you know, I didn't because I didn't see big guys doing that. So when I came in at six, hey I'm playing small forward, you didn't have guys doing that, and so they weren't used to having like Pipping could handle the ball, but Pipping didn't come at you like that, could couldn't go full speaking cross you. Yeah, So that that I think the ball handling I wasn't never a great shooter at least early on.

You know, I became a decent midrange, but the ability to get to my spot and uh at the small forward position, I think that's really helped me early on. And were they weren't you see more of that now guys, you know everybody does that, but back then, you didn't have a lot of threes playing like that. As a rookie, made the All Star Game and won CO Rookie of

the Year average twenty six and five. Um, after that first year, if you said you called your homies after the first and for the games where you surprised that actually what you did fresh out of college in the NBA. Yeah, you know, I was surprised, and I was surprised at all the fans, Like I was like, because they kept trying to make me like the face and I'm thinking, like I still like, I'm I'm trying to We won twenty eight games, my friend, like you know what I'm saying,

I'm still got a lot to learn. But um, that first year was crazy, man, Like it was you know, you shoot, you got commercials endorsements. Um, they would try to call me the next Jordan's but I thought it was foolish. But I leveraged that and what I mean

by that is I monitored. I didn't turn down the deals. Um, but you know, it was hard because we were losing and you go in college where every year you feel like you have a chance to win a championship, and now all of a sudden you're losing more games you then you you know, lost in a lifetime. So that that first year was kind of bitter sweet. Um. But I felt like Alan Houston with lindsay that we had a promise in future, and you know, I just wanted to get better the next year. What was your welcome

to the nd game? Over? And obviously a lot of success here first year, but what was your kind of your welcome to the league moment? Was it a team? Was it a player? Was it to play? Yeah? I just think about the gates, man, like just you know, coming in and like establishing myself, being able to do what I wanted. I felt like it was easier than the college game. I think making an All Star game my first year like that was probably like like man, like I'm here, you know, But there wasn't like one

signature play or moment or game or anything like that. Um, I think just at the gate, coming in and and and putting up work and having success. Um it's like a dream come true. You know I didn't. I didn't. You got understand. I talked about it in the book, like I lacked self confidence, Like I didn't have great confidence in myself. And I also didn't want to stand out growing up. And I, um, I had to get comfortable stepping into greatness. I had to get comfortable with

that kind of responsibility. And my last year, Duke, I think I really kind of got to that point, which helped me when I got to the league. But um, so all that attention like that wasn't something that I that I coveted, you know what I'm saying. And so it was a little bit you know, now you got money, you got fame, you're young, you got a little bit, you know. So it was it was a little it was a little wild that first year, and but you know it was it was fun though. I mean, I

can't lie. You know, you recall your first game against it. So MJ was retired your rookie year, right he was. That was the year he missed. He came back through the end of the year, end of the year. So what was your first match up with him? Like, man, I just wanted to go at him and I played against him with the Dream Team, but I didn't really go against him him and I crossed him up. I remember, I was like geeked about that and we lost the game. But you know, to go against Jordan like that was

that was. I'll tell this man, Jordan was It has always been good to me, like he always would, you know, we go out, we go eat, you know. He Um, I think because he lost his dad, and I k think he liked my dad, fan of my dad and so you know, I don't know if it was me or what, but he always and he talked trash about Duke Carolina and all that, but he was always was good to me. But um, yeah, you know, I mean I tried to go at you. I didn't guard him

a lot. I'll tell you it was funny. So the summer after my rookie year, you you weren't at u c l A man, y'all, Chris Johnson, they ran ran l A after y'all won the championship. So I'm out in l A and I'm filming Living Sink and they created that bubble and I go over there to play against Jordan's and I played the first day and I'm giving him the business. I am killing like I'm not a shooter, but everything I'm shooting is going in. I'm like,

I'm crossing him up. So we're on a lot. They build this bubble, He's got a court, and I'm going at Jordan and I'm giving it. He wants to guard me. I'm giving him the build. Man. In fact, it was I had the shoes on my my g H two's and he had this Jordan's tense but the pattern that we both have patent level and uh man, I'm killing them like I mean like like after I'm calling my boys afterwards, like man, I'm killing Jordan like he little like all this stuff. And so the next day I

come over and I'm confident. Now you know, I'm man. He gave me a bit like it was like oh the next the next day and I couldn't get a shot all he was all that footwork and you know, he was just But that was the best runs, I mean not just in l A. Maybe the best runs in the country were in that bubble. And you had Reggie. You had Reggie Miller's one. Howard, you had a bunch of Dennis Robman, all the U c l a. Guys were there. Toby Bailey might have been the biggest celebrity

in LA this summer. And but yeah, Jordan's that was that was a fun, fun summer right there. And had had my moment against him, Jay, I'm talking about I'm talking about giving them business like y'all. Yeah, I know you Monest too, so you you was really probably giving them that ship. But she's not gonna talk like that.

You want to go to the Loanta Olympics. How was it traveling and being with those guys with the team Let's name that team because that's Barkley, Penny, Reggie Stockton, all those guys yet a lot of personnelity Shack Reggie g p Um Charles like it was. It was but the best part with the practices and we didn't do much.

We just scrimmaged. So I got a chance to go against Scotty every day, and you know that was that was crazy, Like Scotty was great, but I got I got confid it in playing against Scott and to me he was the gold standard at that point. But it was crazy, man, like it was. I was there with Shock when he left to go to l A. And they had to the article in the center on Orlando. We were in Orlando practicing, and they basically had a

surveyation should they pay Shack or not. I was on the bus for Shock and he was in the back and he was like, I can't believe that they don't want me. And I was like, man, go out west, go to l A. Man like, you know, I'm trying to get that big out the east, you know. And uh. But I couldn't believe that they would let Shaq go because he was so dominant at the time, and they really voted not to pay him. I know they didn't

pay him. What I'm saying there was there was the paper did a survey the magic pay Shock or not. It was supposed to be the first hundred million dollar deal or something like that or and Shock's big thing was Alonso got like a hundred and ten, and he was like, if Alonso is a BMW, I'm a Porsche. And so if he's getting a hundred ten, I should get a dred and twenty five. And so fans they have voted. I don't know the survey or whatever, but it was unanimous no and and so that was crazy.

But just being with those guys, man, it was good. I remember, you know, we went out a couple of times. It was a little wild and you know, pre camera phones and pre camera so y'all were safe. Yeah, man, I look, I'm just saying that. Scotty I went out with him one night and they threw a party in Orlando. Now I didn't drink at this point. I didn't drink telling about my wife true story, but so I wasn't drinking, and so we went out. We went to Scotty's hammered.

You know he's drinking. We go back to his, uh go back and play cards all night until about six seven at Boo ray to like six seven in the morning. We got practice at ten. I get to I'm the youngest guy in the team. I have nothing. Scotty is like this dude like running on. I was like, I don't know how, but he and m J. Roll man, so you know, I had a lot to learn. But now it was great. It was We went a gold medal and play with those guys was was was a

big thrill. What international players run of time? Um Oscar Schmidt. He was older at that time, but he was giving me the business. You know. He was tall, about six nine and could shoot it quick trigger, big dude, and so he could play. But you know, man, we dominated everybody. It was no true story. Did you play Andrew Gays? Yeah, Australia. Yeah. I wasn't worried about him. He was he was older

at that point. But in the Olympics, true story, nobody wanted to be the leading score because you got drug tests, and so the only person that got drug tested every game was Karl Malone. It was Karl Malone and whoever the leading score was. We figured it out after a couple of games. So at the end of the games, everybody's passing to each other because nobody wants to shoot, and it looks like we're being like real unselfish, but nobody wanted to score because it took, you know, another

hour of drug testing and all that. So but it was crazy. It was crazy. I would have arged that too. How and where did you celebrate your gold Miller? You know, that's went to me and I started. That's when we kind of met before that. So after the gold medal, I got a suite at the bell Air for five weeks, and that's where we were for five weeks. She was living in l A. And five weeks before the season, now I was in l at the bell at Hotel telling yeah open, I had her over the books called

game Yeah. Yeah. The gold Medal team or the Dream Team? Who winning? Yeah? I mean we had six guys from that original team. We didn't have m J. You practice. Did you practice with the Dream Team as a yeah, we be me Web Hurley, Penny Mash, Roddy Rodgers, Montross, Alan Houston. So we played in the first game in ninety two in LaToya. Alan hit about ten threes. Bobby was getting wherever he wanted. Penny and I were dunking everywhere in transition. Where was the beast? Like, where was

this killing them dudes? Like to the point where Larry Bird was like, if that's what's coming in the league, I need to get out, damn. But then the next day, the next two days they smacked us. We had no But that to me was a was a great gauge to know that I could play at that level. But I like to you know, look, man, were competitives. Man, you always feel like you can win, man, like that. You know, that's the thing about sports man. You always

feel we had shock. What were they gonna do with shock? Penny was like, right, people don't realize to appreciate how good you Penny and Shack alone and so we you know, we're Reggie Mitch. I mean we were, Yeah, definitely held on. Your run from two thousand was unprecedented. Five consecutive of all NBA selections eight and six over that span. Did you feel personally, and you just said, you're a competitive you felt like you were the best player in the

league at that time. Every time I stepped on the floor, probably after like round nineties six, I felt like I was the best player. And I think, I don't think that's unusual. I know every time this guy stepped on the court, you felt like you were the best player. Even if I if I even if I knew I wasn't even to see it all on me. That's what I'm saying, Like you have like to me, like I went against m J. Like, I'm thinking, you gotta guard me, and you have to have that mentality. You have to

have it. And I think when you were top, when you just indly you gotta like even I mean, Matt, you didn't score thirty points a game. But then when you're getting out there, you compete. You gotta feel like, I'm I'm gonna shut this guy down. I'm gonna bust is that like, you have to have that mentality, and so I I did, and when I got hurt and in those four years, I lost that and y'all never got a chance to really see that that player in person. But you go four years of her you know, I

know we'll get into it. We get four years of injuries, you start to question yourself, your abilities, your body's ability to stay healthy. And instead of feeling like I'm the best player, I'm just I'm just happy to be out here, which is a beautiful thing to have that appreciation. But I lost that edge. I lost that like and physically I lost a whole lot as a result as well. So four years it just you know, you're like, I remember during that time, it was back maybe an oh four,

I went. I was at Duke and coach came. It was the year I sat out. He was like, who the top five players in the league? And I was like, shag Kobe, I'm naming guys. He said, Okay, who who the next five? And I go, I go through the I give me the next tent, and so I started naming all these guys and he's like, you named twenty guys. You didn't name itself. And so I didn't quite at

the time like understand. But like looking back at it, like I had, it was so demoralizing, like going through that that when I came back, it was like, let me just like get in where I could fit it. And like I said, I enjoyed it. I was grateful to be able to play. But I lost that that mentalent that middle side explained because like I said, it

happened a while. I go on people like you really explain your injuries and how bad your ankle situation really got, because I don't think people understand the extent of your injury. And he came back still dunking on people barely. I mean, it's a long story, and I get into it in the book, but um, you know, I I got hurt in Detroit and it was a comedy of errors, like it was just it was mismanaged, the whole thing, and

and you know I got hurt. Um we didn't diagnose it correctly, I think, And um, it was probably a hairline fracture, got worse and worse until I broke it, and then when I went to Orlando. So that was the season before Orlando, correct, because my last year in Detroit had surgery. But the surgery shouldn't have been It wasn't a big deal, like every team was still coming after me. I was healing when I got to Orlando.

I was supposed to be out to December January, but they brought me back in September, and so there was some miscommunication. I ended up getting what's called a non union. So the best way to explain that is if if these two fingers are are one bone and they a doctors put the bones back together, they put plates in there to hold it to let it heal. And what happened with me, they healed, but they healed his two separate bones. That's called a non union. That becomes a problem.

That took three years to heal, so in three more surgeries, and so if we had just followed the protocol that was established, then maybe that would have been a void. I can't say that with absolute accuracy, but so that's kind of what happened. Now. The fourth surgery in total I got septic. I thought I almost died. I had a hole in my ankle from a staff infection. You've seen the ankles nasty. The doctor said if the if

the skin the free flap surgery. They took skin from my arm and it sort of used it as a patch over my ankle. If it didn't take, they would have had to amputate the leg and so that the ankle of the leg. Yeah, like the lower part of the leg. And so we didn't have social media, we didn't have our the ability not to tell what was going on. So I think a lot of people didn't know it was right, how serious it was. And uh so I go, I go through all of that in

the book. It was four or five years of just craziness. But so that's why you lose that, you know what I'm saying. You just like, man, I almost died, Like at one point I didn't want to come back. But you're just like, man, I'm just I'm just happy to you to cut you out. What age are you at that time? Two thousand, I'm twenty seven prime? And you know what's crazy? Man? Like writing this book, like going

through it all. And I talked to you earlier about like you gotta stay in the moment, like you can't. I didn't deal with with all of the baggage mentally, emotionally. I was just trying to fight to keep playing, getting into the hall of fame. In that moment, you you reflect, you reflect writing your story. I dealt with it then. Also, yeah, like a lot of that, like you know, a lot of that's heavy. It was. It was dark, even the

hall of fame. The hall of fame should be like the you know, the icing on the cake, the ultimate regardless of what happened or didn't happen, it validates you. And I was mad. I was bitter because I'm thinking you only got six years. Yea, y'all didn't get I didn't get a chance to see this all the way through, and so I didn't hear. I didn't deal with that until after my career because you I'm fighting, man, I'm

just trying to stay on the court. You can't. You're not gonna really look back at the good and the bad while you in the midst off. I say this because you are a big brother, Like you're the biggest what if ever, like we all looked like you were the next prototype you. They were fitting you to be the next MJ because that's how talented you were, you

know what I mean. And it's just like to hear you kind of explain your story on what you went through like you were robbed, We were robbed, like you were going where no one has really been for your size, your position, in what you brought to the game. So I always wanted to know, Like obviously for cool and I've known you for years, you might big brother, but

we've never got that in depth. Like I couldn't imagine, like you said, you finally unloaded that baggage twenty plus years later, because like you were on pace to be one of the if not you know what, who knows, one of the greatest players of all time, and to have injury derailed that, Like it's just I I always That's why I'm definitely gonna read this. But just as the basketball site, the mental side had to be not only on the court, but off the court in your

personal life and all it just weiited on you. It did, it did, And you know, everybody's got something and everybody goes through something. And sometimes I don't want to equate this because there's people who have far more traumatic things in their life. But sometimes we we suppressed that. Sometimes you suppress it to survive and uh, but ultimately you get through it by acknowledging it and dealing with it. And so I I never unpacked it, and I didn't realize.

I didn't realize how much it impacted me. And like I didn't think that, like because I used to say to myself, like coming back from the injury, playing nine more years, that's far greater than anything I did, because I know what I went through, But I don't think I really unpacked, like like how how how hard that was for me and how difficult that was to go through that, and you know, genetics, hard work, whatever, But like I had a chance. You know, you have a chance.

They leave a legacy and and and I think I did. I mean I had a great career, but I had a chance to be really really special. And it's interesting, man, Like I'm being honest here, Like when the NBA SEV came out, Yes, Tea Mac you know the events, I mean, there was a bunch of Dwight come on, Like I don't know, so I kind of like and maybe this is a way to like protect myself but I was like, you know what, I get it. I got hurt. You know, I didn't have I didn't see it. All the way

through the Hall of Fame is college and NBA. So my college helped get me in. So my body of work wasn't enough. So I kind of justified it. But just tell I'm being honest. So I'm at the All Star Game in Cleveland and I'm working that night, I'm working the pregame, that the post game and all that goes on, and it hit me then, and that was I got. I was emotional, and it was I was surprised.

I was emotional. You know, you're trying to protect you're not trying to show it, but you're feeling like, like, funk, I should be out there. And I remember twenty five years ago I was in that building for the fifties and it was All Star weekend and I said, you know what, if they ever do this again, I'm gonna be on the next team. And when I was there, and no disrespect to these guys because they do serving to be on it, I'm fans. It is their brothers

of mine. I love him to death. But when I saw people like, you know, guys from my era, like Ray and Reggie and I used to be like, man, I used to get him the business, like that's what I was thinking, and so I had, you know, and and they're deserving. So I'm not trying to so that it's like it hit me and so like there's still baggage like this still you know I'm saying it so but it kind of triggered me a little bit. But you know what I mean. Look, I mean, you're better

than Danny Shades. Bro. I'm sorry man when you said, excuse me, Dolf Shades. You're better than Dolf Shades. I want to seem sorry I was nicer than Dolf Shades. Look, you got given respect for his time. But I want to say something about y'all man, because I know you're interviewing me. But I played. First of all, I remember, Matt, I watched you play during the lockout and you see I like, and I remember hearing you are a football player.

And then fast forward, I think it was oh seven, y'all had y'all run and Golden State and I'm like, who is this light skinned crazy mother ran across the court and Devin somebody and I was like, Yo, this dude, it's crazy, Like you know what I'm saying. Like, but then I played with you and and and people get to see that, you know, different sides of you guys now.

But the thing that showed me a lot about you was when our teammate Barbosa and his mother passed and your mom had unfortunately from can And I'm not trying to bring it up, but like, and I know that was hard for you, but to see you there for him and he's crying, he's going through it, and like I didn't know how to be supportive because I hadn't really gone through it. But I was like, yo, this dude like mad, like all that other stuff and all the stuff that you've gone through. I played with you

with the Clippers. You come into the aid of a teammate, all your stuff, all your smoke. It was defense defending a teammate. And in this, dude right here, the same thing in the palace. You come into the aid coming to the aid of a teammate. Everybody I didn't play with with you stacked, but everybody that's played with you that I know thinks the world of you. And so I was like, like, as teammates and guys like I could be in the trenches with these two rats. I

was with mad Um. I didn't you know I played one. We was a little messed up in Phoenix, but in l A, I didn't play. I watched. Can you imagine that? That real quick and the phoeniship. They fired Terry Porter at All Star Break that was our cover. First of all, I'm going, I'm so I'm going to come out of that. We believe season. I'm Nelly mad I don't sign a three year deal, so he gets rid of me. I'm going in there and jeez there and I'm telling I

tell them, remember yo, Honor, You're my favorite plan. I don't know if I made him feel old at the time, but I'm going to tell him that during the game Grant Hill, first of all, first of all, it was crazy and they fired him, and yeah, we had too much town, man. That was that. We had so much. We should have been remember Sta Cock Superhero. We had. We had some town. But the crazy thing was, um, we just do right here. I don't know if you

remember this, but we played. We played in Orlando, and I think after the whole thing in the past, that was old four oh five and then oh six, I got I had a sports hernius. I don't I don't know if we played against each other until oh six o seven and we're in Orlando and I'm guarding him and we're writing on the sidelines and somebody yell something slick out to you about you know too. I turned around and cursed him out. Yeah you remember that. Remember

that I cursed him out. And I didn't know how. I didn't. We didn't know each other. But because I'm I got a garden this dude, and I don't need you know what I'm saying, But like, but I, I and so and then we played the next year, I think it on the stage and uh man, y'all ran up and down the court like that year. I was like, I mean it was fun, but like I always said, he was top three or four guys I had to go. I could never figure him out. I couldn't figure jack out. No,

but I couldn't. But I could not. We had a different game. You could shoot it, you played with it. You couldn't speed you up. You shot it, you know, behind your head. And I was I could not. I could guard. I had a you know, you couldn't guard guys. But you had a playbook for like, Okay, I'm gonna you know, Lebron, I'm gonna try to do this or Mellow, I'm gonna do that. I couldn't do anything with Kobe like I mean, I couldn't know. I'm out there with one leg and they got me out here at thirty

eight trying to guard Kobe. I'm looking at Matt like you was getting after it though. I mean, but but but I couldn't. It was I couldn't figure you out. Man, I pierce like I could. I had a game plan for and I actually did well against these guys. But I people don't appreciate how good you were. I think those that no, No, I've always told you that. I want to backtrack a little bit. So you go to Orlando. This is you t mac and a possibility of getting

Tim Duncan at the time walk us through this. So you're going through injury and and trying to get back on the court. You're teaming up with a young team mac Uh and then there's whispers or rumors that you could possibly get Tim. So what happened was Tim and I went We had the same major, so we went down together and Tim I think was more in at the time than I was. I was still you know, I had New York, I had a couple of other teams I was looking at, but Tim wanted to be

in Orlando if he were to leave. And so we were down there and they were hosting us, and and they had just had a pretty good season Doc Rivers first year coach, and they were I think they were five hundred and so while we were there, like everything was going well, like it just felt like, yo, this this, this could happen. And I know it's hard for people now to think of Tim Duncan anywhere else. He was after his thirty I think he won a championship in

San Antonio. And I'm telling you, man, I remember it like it was yesterday. We're at dinner and Tim's girlfriend asked Doc a question, can wives and girlfriends travel on the team playing? And you got to stand back then that that didn't happen and what happens now, But back then it didn't happen. And so Doc said, no, it's a business trip. That doesn't happen. I don't allow that now.

I didn't know that San Antonio had started doing that, you know, And so that's why, because I'm thinking that's a bold question, Like I'm like, why is she asking that question? So but I didn't pay much attention to it.

So we got back to the hotel that night, and it was funny because to me and I, we we're in the hotel almost like the hotel room was bugged, so we're whispering to each other, like you know, and she's like, he ain't coming, so what do you mean She's like when she asked that question, her old body language changed with that response, and I was like, na, no, no, whatever. So anyway, we get back, we get back to Detroit's funny story. So it was too much. I'm on crutches.

So I ended up saying, you know what, have the teams come visit me in Detroit? So New York comes in and they bring they bring Star Jones, they bring like all these actors and actresses in. They got this tape they play, They got like Seinfeld and Brookshields and all these people like come. You know, you think you look at Orlando's night when see where do you come to New York? Like? And I always wanted to play in New York. So Leon, you know, the actor Leon

so I asked him about this. So he's on the video. He's like, gee, you think the women are nice in Detroit, wait till you come to New York. And so to me it was like, oh, hell no. And so to this day we talked, She's like, man, you think the New York would have watched the tape and so anyway, you know, New York didn't happen, but um and everybody and I was probably going to Orlando. But so then T Mac like there was but there was a chance.

As Tim was trying to figure it out, T Mac, you know, he was from down there, and so it just it was coming together, like all three of us might play together. And I didn't know how good T. Mac was at that time, and so I didn't know. I didn't know until they got to Orland. I was like,

oh my god, this guy right here is incredible. So not being able to be healthy to play with Mac, it's something that we talked, He and I talked about all the time, just like wishing that we could have could have could have done a team Mac and g despite all the injuries. You know how men and Matt feel about you. A lot of people, a lot of people feel the same way about you. And even though the injury is you still had a Kobe s career.

In our minds, the wait at you, how when you go back and look when you go back and look at all that, what's your thoughts? Like? How how greatful are you are you? You know, to make it through all that, the injury and still be able to come back and finish on a good note. Yeah, that was special. I mean it was a good thing. You know. On one hand, I didn't appreciate how good I was, and that sounds arrogant, but I didn't appreciate how good I

was in Detroit because we weren't winning. And so the one thing I learned from this process of writing a book is when we have success, we got to celebrate that. There's a story. I um, two thousand All Star Game, so nine we had a lockout, so we didn't have an All Star Game two thousand in San Francisco. We're there, we play or I guess in Oakland the Old Oracle Arena.

It's such a such a stupid story. So I'm thinking, Okay, Jordan's gone because in the All Star Game with Joey, we had to defer to him you know what I I mean, you just know what said it, but you just felt like we gotta get the especially in ninety eight where Kobe was there, like they're going we had to like which I got issues with the whole um the documentary. It was a great documentary, but it made it seem like I was scared, like we were on the bench

and what happened was in that game. Penny was hurt that year. He sat out the whole year, came back for two games, played in the All Star Game. He had GP Gardener. It was it was Kobe and m J. And then people forget Garnette was a three early in his career, so Gardnette and I matched up. So Penny didn't want to handle the ball because he's not healthy and he's got to go against GP. So I'm bringing the ball out. I was point forward, so I'm always

back in transition. We're farting around. It's three on one. GP got Kobe and guard that he's throwing lives. I'm back, so I'm not trying to be in the frame on these alleues in the time. I don't like 'all, y'all gotta get back because I'm a goot hear the do he's young boys, you know, And so the way it looked, it looked like I was like scared of and I had great respect for Kobe, but I wasn't. I wasn't scared of him then, you know, so two thousand All Star,

so you know, the trainers always would carry her. I had contacts then, so my trainer, Mike, after an hour in Detroit, would always keep contacts, so if I ran out, I would just go get something from him. So I only had one pair of contacts. In the day of the game, I one contact ripped and so I'm like, do I play with no contacts? I put one in and now I'm all screwed up. During the game, I

threw a live to events. I promise you I threw it over the backboard even like it's so you know, and I remember something I told Hip England, who's you know, you know Chip from San Antonio. I told Chip, I saw, man, it's always next year, like I'll wear you know next year. And so next year didn't happen. And and so I say all that to say that you gotta celebrate when we have success and life's not guaranteed, and we got

to celebrate each other and celebrate yourself. I didn't do that when I was in Detroit because to me, I was chasing Isaiah until we won. I didn't give myself permission to celebrate. And so being able to go back now and like, you know what I actually was all right because I don't. Here's the thing, you guys, remember that I remember trying to guard Kobe at thirty eight with a bad wheel. I remember like standing in the corner waiting for the ball to come to me. Like

that's what I remember. I don't. I didn't remember those those those those years. And so the exercise of not just the dark but also the light, the good, the positive, and and just appreciating that. As you said, a lot of people remember them full speed crossovers, trust me, coming at you the crossover pip I mean when he got Pippo and banged on it. Pepper was too light, man, he was like to fifteen, I could just right. For all you young people, google him, n google him. What

was the playoff experience like with Steve Nash? That was the Western Finals round? Yeah, you played was in you in Orlando? We had a good year. You know, it was weird because we had as great as Shock was and as great as Steve where they didn't really mix. And so when Shaq left and Amori was healthy, and then Alvin Gentry was coaching us, we we had a

really good season. We were third seed, and um we beat Portland, beat San Antonio, and then we faced that l A. They got us the first two games in l A. We beat him the first the next two games and the game five, man like, we're right there on the roads. J Rich banks in the read to tie it. In overtime, Kobe gets a ball three pointer the one time he missed. What time he missed? A shoutow me like in that situation. Uh, he air balled. I'm writing this like I'm right there in his face.

He airballs, and but metal World Peace gets to rebound. Ja Rich didn't box him out. He tipping and he they win game five, and I don't know if emotionally we recovered. And then Kobe in game six, I mean, he started, dude, and so here's the thing bad. So he you know, he's doing he's doing this and he oldways look with Kobe like like with Lebron, like when I got it Lebron. Back then, my attitude was I'm not gonna crash the offensive class and we shoot. I'm

gonna find him. I'm not gonna let him get out in the open full head of steam. So I'm not gonna let him turn the corner and go right and get to the rim. I'm gonna make him make contested jump shots. And I'm not gonna foul if he posts me up. Don't help because he beat you with his passing as much as so, like you know, he had

a game play and I actually did. Okay, I mean Lebron would have moments, but like you know, I didn't have a strategy for like I I didn't know what to do, and so sometimes man like I would just he go up the shot, I'll just hit his arm, like, just hit his arm and just like you know. And the problem too is I couldn't go back at him because that my role. You know in Phoenix, Nash had the ball in his hand. So I'm stuck in the corner and I'm not you know, I'm not a spot

up shooter. Um, so he was hard to defend. But in that moment, man, like a couple of times I guess right like I'm like, like he's gonna go right, he's gonna shot fake. I'm not. You know, I know what he's gonna do. And I'm like, and you know, you know how hard it is saying this when you're squirre it off against him. You're saying that in your head as yours. You knew. I knew he wanted to go right, and I knew he had a great ball fake, and I've seen him do it before. And so he

one shot right front of our bench. We tapped Alvin on them, and so he hit a touchhot on me before that, and I tried to deny him the ball, but he gets it. He goes right. I go with him. He shot face. I don't go for it. I actually get closer into him. I go up when he goes up. You know how hard it is to do with shot fake reload from three. And I couldn't be any closer

to him without found him. Man, this dude, Like I was like, I mean, I was actually proud of the defense I played, like I'm thinking, I couldn't have done anything other than just prevent him fro getting the ball. But he was the best player I played against. And and I say this respectfully with George, I didn't guard Jordan's and I matched up. But the best player that

I played against hands down with Kobe. And one of my regrets, it's in the book and oh seven, When I left Orlando, Phil Jackson called me three No what that was? That was in Detroit true that I don't know how true that was. I've heard that, but I don't know how true that was. But when I left Orlando,

Phil call three times. I didn't call him back, and I'm thinking, oh, it's it's over in l A. Kobe, you know, he's talking about buying them, and you know they you know, they're imploding in the playoffs and all I got. I just thought the run was over in l A. And I end up going to Phoenix in part to stay healthy. But I think Phil would have played me more more suited for my game. He liked tall guys that could handle, and I think he wanted me to come in and kind of be a primary

ball handler or whatever. Me sitting in the corner was not my game, you know what I'm saying. I mean, I played it, I did my role, but like that wasn't who I was. And so I think now, like man if I had just that would have been interesting. We were number one in the West. But then they traded for Gasol and then later that that season and that was a game changer for Um for the Lakers. And then you know, you went on and had a great run, played with some some great teammates. Anyone, who's

your favorite teammate during your career? Damn Man, nineteen years Man, that's that's run. I think in Detroit, Lindsay Allen, those are my guys. We came in together, you know, and in Orlando was tough because I didn't play a whole lot in Orlando, Jamir Um good people. You know. Actually it's crazy. You know, you know who bonded who? And I bonded a lot because we were rehabbing all the damn time was Pat Garrity. We like, we were hurt two years, so we spent a lot of time together.

You know, I enjoyed play. I mean, we didn't hang out. We didn't you know, I didn't partake, but I enjoyed bad Man like mad I'm telling you, like, just in terms of teammates doing whatever is needed, the ultimate teammates, you know what I'm saying, Like people don't get a leve credit for that. I'll give you enough credit for that, but like you should have started in that like with the Clippers that year, you know, but he came off

the bench. You never never made him. I remember seeing I remember seeing you at the facility, like you didn't have I don't think you you had. It was like late too, might have been like August September and you were unsure where you're gonna sign and you weren't there just playing pickup ball every day. And then you playing so well they brought you in. But like just like whatever's needed, you know what I'm saying, didn't complain, just did what he had to do. If something popped off.

He was always in it, like he was there for your teammate, like and so. But there's so many, man, you know, Nash was fun to play with. Barbosa was a good guy. Those finished years were fun. Um. I don't know if I had a favorite, but you know, Shock was fun. Shack was crazy. Remember the Shock and lou Armington back and forth. Remember when Shaq took his mouthpiece and put in his tights during shoot around. I was just talking with Shaq about that last night, so

we talked about it on the show. Is the craziest man. Hey, man, Shack. I mean, there's so many stories mad people. He remember writing on loose bike button naked. I'm an out Shack right here. But I remember one time we it's so bad man. One time, man Shack so bad man. I don't even I can't repeat that bad Come on, you already started, man. We know We're in the showers after practice and he goes to Jay Rich, Ja, Rich, you got a fat ass man. I'm like, I'm like, how

do you come back? How do I What did Jay Risch do? Man? You know what I'm saying. Shack was just he was funny, he was nasty, crazy kid. He uh, and we had put Terry Porter man he had Remember we used to say that Bill Carwriter average what he used to break his stats. So Terry Porter. We're in a film session and uh, we're watching film in the film room and he stopped film say Shock, like, don't you think you could come over from the weak side

and maybe blocked the shot right here? And Shock would be like, TP, I'm top five all time in the NBA shot blocks. I think I know when I can block a shot, like like just like the disrespect, the craziness, that's so calm. About a couple of times he showed up late. It's bad too, but he showed up late for prop and nobody he was. It's just shot. It was shot. He shot late, and like coach, I'm sorry, man. The passport truck tipped over on fifty one. Man. They

were Mexicans everywhere. That's why I'm late to like he was just like he was, man, it was it was constant human man. And and uh he just kept it light. He was. It was crazy. We didn't make the playoffs, but you know he was in the time. I can't believe I told our stories, man, every day, every day something Bill Carry used to coach the bigs. Bill, I average so and so and so and so and so ago against you in this game. And my career number from high school to college and the pros even break

all the ship. I'm seventy percent lifetime from the field. Give me the damn ball middle state high school. I can't in the car, right, I have a thirty in ten against him, Like he just just unbelievable. He was unbelievable, just like he shot Mumble under his breath was fast forward co owner with the Hawks. How did you happen to land that spot. Congratulations. By the way, I appreciate that. When we were in l A. I wasn't playing. I was hurt. Um. Matter of fact, it was that December

when you guys, when we were undefeated. We had a great month I had. I figured I was in l A. My family was a Fenish, so once a month I would have dinner with this duke Alum, a guy named Bruce carsh And Bruce actually is one of the partners with the Warriors, and uh, he's a d grad. So we were talking about the Clippers and I was like, you know, I think they might they might be in play. Um, they may. I'm here and they may have to sell

the team for state tax reasons. So we kind of concocted this whole, this this plan that we knew Adam was going to be commissioner the next year. All three of us do grads. Let's meet with Adam and see if we can get in through the you know, maybe buy a piece of the team with the chance to buy it all later down the road. And then the

next year everything employes. And so Bruce brought in a guy, Tony Wrestler because he knew now it was going to be an open auction when the team was for sale, and uh, we've been at one point two billion dollars. And funny story, So I'm in New York with Bruce carsh Tony's in l a roll on speaker phone and we're on the phone. They're gonna get mad, and I told the story. We're on the phone and we're like, okay, one point two billion is gonna be our deal. That's

something that's for the Clippers. That's to buy the Clippers, which we were outbid by eight hundred millions Steve Bomber. But we're on the phone, they're like all right. So Tony says, I'll put it in half a billion, and then Bruce says, I'll put in half a billion, and then they look at me. So I swear I said I got five on it, like you know, just you know, I was being funny, and uh but I told him my amount and they just wanted to know that I and I was gonna put something in and you have

to put something in. So but that didn't work. Um, the Hawks came up right after similar circumstances, some racial overtones, some emails, so on and so forth. And I ended up getting Tony and convinced him on Atlanta. You know, I think the perception of Atlanta historically the franchise was just, yeah, it just wasn't good. You played there, so it was, and so I felt like for me, my selling point was,

we got a chance to coming in that value. You got a great city, international airport, quality of life, guys like to be in Atlanta. Cost of living is low. You know what I'm saying. All of that, we got a chance to come in and change that narrative and build an emotional connection with the franchise. If you're from Boston and you're a basketball fan, there's a nine chance your Celtics fan. But if you're from Atlanta you might be a Bulls fan. You might be It's so transient.

People aren't really from there. So you know, we came in and you know, we do the arena practice facility, you know, try to create an atmosphere, try to understand Atlanta, embrace what Atlanta is. The previous ownership group I thought it was too too much diversity to black, and so we've tried to embrace who we are. I love when you go to a game in Atlanta, You've got people from all walks of life, you know, different political different ethnicities,

different gender orientation, all their supporting the team. But we're building that, you know, we're we're trying to build it. And Trey Young having a young star, Uh it's helpful, but um, but yeah, so we're changing that. We we I don't know if you've been to a game in Atlanta, I know, I know you have. It's a party man like man, it's it's a party of our game. We got concerts. We got to change as a partner with the G League team. The food is unbelievable. The food

we got sweet sweet, we got amenities. Were trying to create an environment there. Barbershop we gotta kill the Mike got a barbershop that it's dead space that you could not sell and so we said, let's make it a barbershop. We got a DJ and then it's a whole energy in their whole vibe. And so just embracing Atlanta. We try to reflect Atlanta and all that we do. And we got a lot more work to do, but excited about the progress we've made. Man, coming down the home

stretch post career, you've been very successful. What are some other thing you're into outside of ownership of that Hawks. I got a lot on my plate, man, maybe a little too much. But I'm on the board of Campbell Sup. So we you know, in our portfolio we have everything from Cape Cod Chips, Kettle Chips, um obviously Campbell Sup, Chunky Chunky Soup. I'm on the board of Empire State Realty Trust. We own the Empire State Building. We love to have you guys come do a show Empire State Build.

I personally hold that road. We can make that happen. It's on me. We make that happen. We be honored. Um. I um managing director of USA Basketball. So I'll be picking the Olympic team. Um. And you know Steve Kerr's our head coach for the next next cycle. What else am I doing. I'm on the board of Duke Shoes Coming Back Out, Shoes Coming Back Out. A matter of fact, this is a partnership right here with two State, So

it's a partnership. He's a be coming out. He wore these the g H two's on, no on, all eyes on me. Yeah, and so so that really helped with the shoot. But yeah, just you know, keeping a busy man, we were building downtown Atlanta. We're pointing four billion dollars in the downtown Atlanta, and so trying to do like an l A live kind of in downtown Atlanta. So just staying busy man, you know, doing TV as well, trying to be like, y'all love it. Is it true?

Anita Baker introduced you into me a kind of yeah, yeah kind of. So so Isaiah has the jersey retired, and I need a baker scenes the national anthem at the jersey at the game. So afterwards there was a reception. I me didn't need a baker. So she and her husband so she's like, you know, so I know you gotta go. I know you like breaking all the hearts and all this, and I mean I'm just like, yeah, I can't find I'm struggling. I wasn't really struggled. I

was like, I'm struggling, you know that, you know. So so the next week she was at the Sole Train Awards and she met to me and to me, it was, you know, from Windsor, which is right across the river from Detroit, big fan of a nitter. So she was telling her this and he was I got just the guy for you. So she kind of she planted the seed. I ended up connecting with to me, you know, a couple of months later. But yeah, you know, it's a good story to say, A need a hook to say.

It's largely your oldest daughters in m m A. As a father, what is that like watching your daughter punched people in the face and get punched you have, you have girls, you two boys with three boys. Um, so she's you know, she started doing jiu jitsu, and as a parent, you think, okay, girl, young lady getting to go off of college, learned self defense. That's a good thing. But that just kept going, kept going. And so right before COVID, she's like, Dad, I think I want to fight.

So I got a buddy who's the general council at UFC. So I took her to a fight and we're sitting up close. I'm thinking, you know, she sees up close, she won't want to do it. I'm you know. So we get there in North Carolina, we go to the fight, we fly home that night, we get into two am. I'm like, Mila, what do you think. She's like, Dad, I could be a champion. And I was like the backfire, like the player didn't work, but she kept going and she fought last She fought last October. And I mean

she's passionate about it. And you know, like if somebody, if your parents tried to tell you couldn't play basketball, you gotta support your kids whatever they want to do. So let me tell you so to me and I. So she goes to the fight. She goes early. We drive from Orlando to Lakeland, Florida. By the hour drive, we don't say a word in a car. There's no music, no nothing on the rate. We're not saying that. There's a nervous energy. We get to the fight. There's a

bar man. We probably each had about eight rum coach, you just had to by the time she came on. She comes out. Her her walkout music was Rick Rocks feeling Good, The Devil was The Devil is a Live. So she comes out, you know, but we're like, now, we're like, this's your first time actually seeing it, first

time seeing it. So she gets in the ring. She goes in first, the young lady she's fighting, who's fought before, who looks like she's been in some fights, you know, And so we're a little nervous about but like she gets she comes with studs and her ears and that's a no no. So they can't get them out. And so they're going through all this and trying to get them out. It's been ten minutes. So now we're kind of mad. It's the tack that yeah, that they're stalling.

So now to me, you know, I won't repeat with to me, it was saying, but it's what they say in Memphis a lot and so um and so anyway, she gets in the ring, she chokes her out with fifteen at these seconds, and uh, you know, so she's into it, man, and you know, what do you do? Man? You know? But but she and she and she and you you know, I mean, she's quiet, sweet, kind like the last person you would think. But dude, she goes six days a week. She teaches it, she loves it.

She's a brown belt like she's she wants to fight, she wants to try to go for it. She wants to open up gems down the road. So she's got a plan and you know, we'll see what happens. You were always forward thinking in basketball, so much that you didn't have an agent. What did that? Where did that idea come from? And you were able to be successful. I realized early on that the NBA is a global marketing and public relations firm. That's the Skies as a league.

We went to China. Remember we went to China, and we're over there and people knew who we were. We go places recognize us, and that's because that's what the NBA does. And so I felt like I needed an attorney who can negotiate my contracts. But all the marketing opportunities I was coming from the league that was coming from different, you know, because the league's pushing young players and I was delivering early on. So why am I gonna pay somebody? And then why am I gonna let

them own that relationship and leverage it. I want to sit with with Coca Cola's right, I want to sit with nest Lee. I want to sit with and talk about marketing plans, sit with the ad agency. A lot of times agents might leverage that, you know for another CLIs.

So you know, I got hurt. All that momentum kind of went away, but it was invaluable experience, like having an office, having employees doing evaluations, raises um, sitting in meetings talking about strategy, like I'm doing all this while I'm playing, and it just helped, you know, help me think about and learn about other things. So you know, it was fun and I had a good time. And you know, maybe if I had the muscle of a big time marketing firm, maybe things would have been a

little different. But I had well, I had a lot of deals real quick before we get the quick hitters um situation. I thought you were gonna ask about like Biggie Oh Ship, Yeah, because you remember you asked me about that in l A. Yeah, I talked about in the book. So yeah, the night that the night Biggie pass talk to us about that. Damn I told you forgot about that. We just had We just had the photographer that go ahead. We're in l A here March eighth,

because he died on the knife. It's right March nine. So we played the Clippers. We beat the Clippers. I did work, I did my thing, and and so to me as label is throwing a party. So after the game, I go with Tamiya and I don't know if you know Jay Brown. So Jay was at the label. We get in the limo. We go back to to to me as Manager's house. First of all, I was the night that the first night I was the first time heard hypnotize. It wasn't on the radio yet, but they

had disk and they kept saying Detroit players. You know, Pick gave his mighty It's like run that back, running back in the limo every time, you know, hearing that song. So we go to the party to understand t and I've been together almost a year. It was the first time we had been out, and so we walk in and everybody turns like everybody's looking at us because they hadn't seen us out, but everybody was there. We saw Biggie, we saw Pufficly. We weren't there long. We we might

have been there ten minutes. We might have left five minutes before they left, because when we left, they were kind of near the door. And by the time we got back to too minutes place and it already circulated that he got killed. And so it was. It was crazy. Um, it was a little weird thinking that they were out there because it was still all that East coast West coast stuff. And shoot, that even happened with to me, like she got caught up, you know, we got caught

up in a situation. Um, she was in the studio working on the album. Stevie J produced one of the songs. And so before I got there, I'm with Jay Brown. We're Benny Hannas and we're doing sake bombs and uh. And so we come to the studio. So before we get there, they were in the commons room, Stevie J and his his his bodyguard and the outlaws or in the other studio, and so I guess they had words in in the in the common area. Somebody pulled out a gun. So this all happens before we get there.

So I show up, we get there, and ten minutes after we get there, police come in, rifles drawn, paint. We're all on the wall. I'm thinking, like this R and B session, Like I'm like that. And so anyway, I found out what happened, and you know, we we don't. I don't know what ultimately happened. And but I say that that was that was probably the summer of ninety seven. So but it was just still tension, you know what

I'm saying. And so when we saw Biggie and them at that, it was just like and I didn't think what happened would happen, but it was just it was it was weird. Energy was off. Yeah, it was a weird night. It was a weird night, real quick before we get the quick hitters. The Grand Hill drink Sprite I mean to me, you know that and Little Penny or kind of what I remember growing up from like athletes and commercials. So how did that come about? In the idea and behind the actual commercial? The idea it

was kind of genius. Man. It was basically, obey your thirst, don't let somebody tell you to drink it. And so we're making fun of pitchment and uh and making fun of myself and so that was Sprite attaching himself, aligning himself with the NBA. You know, I got involved with that. Um So we had a We had a great run, did a lot of fun commercials. Even did a shore

with Kobe um his second year. Crazy story. We did a commercial together his second year during the season, I fly out to l A. Now I'm at this point, I'm like, I'm the big you know what I'm saying. Like He's like, it's like Midway, it's before the All Star break. When he's young, he's got a lot, he's having a great second year. I fly out to l A. And we're gonna do this commercial where he's on He's on one shoulder, I'm on the other shoulder. And we're

going back and forth with this kid. And so when you do these commercials, you you approved the script before you commit. So the script has been approved for for a week. So I fly all the way out to l A on the off day. We get there and the director comes in and he says, Kobe wants to rewrite the script. And I'm like, he wants to what he wants to rewrite the script? I'm like, all right. So they come back like thirty five minutes. He got

all the good lines. Now he had all the good lines, and they're like and I'm like, look, na, I said, man, look, I come all the way out here. This is what I agreed to if he wants to do this, I'm looking back on the plane fly back, and so I mean, while we're trailers right next week, he just could have gone and talked to each other. But but that was cold, Like I kind of respect that he was bold enough to want to do that. And anyway, we went back.

We did the script that we we agreed to. But yeah, the spray stuff, man, that was that was fun and and poking fun at people. Having pitchmen was the whole premise behind the Sprat campaign. So so well, man, it's been a great interview. Quick hitters. First thing to come to mind. Let us know, duke all time starting five including yourself, so you plus four all time dukes dukies. Man, I gotta go with Later Man. He he did work.

He was killing the killer. He I think later top three, top five, maybe all time in college, just in terms of his accomplishments. Later, I gotta go with I gotta go with Johnny Dawkins because he kind of said people don't people don't appreciate how talented he was. You're gonna get me in trouble, man, I'm gonna show the young fellas some love. Ja Jayson Tatum. I think when it's all said and done, I think he's gonna be the best.

And he might he might already be there. He I don't know if there was a more skilled guy coming in out of high school, had it all, you know, offensively that final spot. Kyrie. He was only there for nine days. And I know sometimes we claim him, sometimes we don't, but talent there he was. He was Kyrie. Kyrie Dawkins yourself laterner Jason Tatum five n five Right there? What album can you listen to with no skips? I can't have your wife? No Brownie points here Biggie's first album?

Mm hmm uh point no, was it the Little Baby on the front. That's my first that's my favorite one right there. Yeah, I mean you kind of already missed if you have a better story. But best Kobe or MJ story off the court, Uh, Kobe probably, Like, um, I go up one night to me is living, she's living on the Wheelshore Corridor, and I think we're engaged

at this point. And it's late, like I go to the men's gym if U c l A maybe like midnight, and I'm and I'm I'm reading, I'm redoing my shots, so I'm changing my mechanics and I'm just going in there to do like just some set shots by myself. And I go in there and Kobe's in there and he's lathered up and he's got his guy and uh so I'm down at the other end and he's like, you wanna play one on one? And I didn't because I'm like I'm changing my shot, like I'm not I'm

not there yet, but I'm like, I got it. I got can't I can't say no? And uh we played one on one and I'm telling you it was like a game seven in like late July, like it was. I don't think I played that intense in the summer. And he was like he was, I mean, you know, just what second years coming off his second year, drafted off his second year, and so like the work ethic and and how hard like up until then, man like I didn't really work on my game and I just

hooped to play pick up ball. And that summer was when I started, Okay, I'm gonna start like working and getting better and trying things. And and that was the hard part because I did it. I did it in ninety nine, and then after that, I never never worked on my game in the summer because I was hurt. I was trying to get healthy and it finally got healthy. And now I didn't touch a ball in the summer. So those Phoenix years, I didn't. I'm trying to preserve

my ankle. So the you know, going through having a strategy, working on stuff, all of that. Like I enjoyed doing that um and a lot of it I got from being like watching this kid, his kid younger than me, grinding, like getting after it by himself. It's like a Friday night. I'm alright, I'm wiped up. I'm telling you know. You know, I'm just wanting to go get some shots up late at night, and he's in the gym going at it. And and so that was. That was a moment that

that um that I remember. That was. I was like, man, this kid, I remember my freshman or u C. So he used to be on campus all the time. People see him normally during the day, at night working out playing. It was and and you know, he impacted a whole generation now that they do that, they put that like you know, back in the day, you might go and five spots, five mates, got some shots up, you know what I'm saying. But like he put the work in

for sure. It's crazy question. But I know your game and I just seen you play so much and I relize you. But you have to cross someone to dunk on someone. But I've seen you do that too many times in the same place. It was us go hand in hand. Yeah, for you that go in there. But for the questions like no, maybe maybe the favorite someone you crossed up and dunked on. That was your that was the ship, that was your patent of thing. So you've got a lot of people on that list. It

was always it was always fun dunking on the kem back. Yeah, I got him a couple of times. Very few people got it. And he Um. I used to tell him, I'm a clown, I'm a climb mountain. Tumbo, I'm coming and you don't know, you ain't gonna get me, and uh and so that back and forth. Um. The thing about my Tumbo in morning, they jumped for everything. And even if they got jumped a the guys won't won't come over. Shock, They won't come over, you know, they

don't want to get posterized. But like Kim Bad, he came every time, every time, and he he got got, He got got, you know more than no question, no question for sure. Uh, five dinner guests that are alive? Was that? Five dinner guests that are alive? You know what? You know? I was thinking, man for my my fifties, to get five, like five rappers that like I grew up and having them over for dinner like rock Kim Cameras one came people don't know. You make beats, bro

all you that grand it's nice on the keys. I retired, man, because you know, to me and said I was she called me quincy bones, start called me piss beats. She was like, you know, because you know, she she's like, where's the melody? Like you know, I'm like, baby, look look it's not It's r B is a different you know, but she her thing when she's spending too much time doing it, for not getting to check, you know. But

I just I love it, man, I love music. And when I listened to a song, I don't listen to the lyrics. I listened to the music, like what what's the drum track? What's what's the baseline doing? What's so? You know, I retired from making beats, but yeah, rhapsody up. In fact, I went to the studio with Ninfe Wonder back in the day and I was trying to I was trying to chop to shop Shalam not Shalamar climax um song, and I was I couldn't get what I wanted.

So I put on to me to put on still, and I chopped up the beginning part and put some drums over it, and she heard it she was in the studio and she went in and put it on her mix tape before she before she blew up, and so but I always love music. So you get five legends on your birthday? Yeah, I gotta I gotta figure out five rappers that I grew up that were like and I know those three. I gotta figure the other two. But it'd be fun to bring him in and just

just chop it up with him. Trick question. Okay, who would you like to see on All the Smoke? But but who would I like to see on our show? But you have to help us get your answer on the show. Get that person on the show, Obama, I think that'd be cool. You heard what I said, though, right, you have to help us get that person on the show.

I don't know if somebody else, think of somebody else, Grant, if anyone could probably get up, probably Silver has been all right, Yeah, yeah, I think we can get that done. I want to ask him, can I get some of my money back? Now? He looked at everything that's going on and looked at the brawl, like, do you really think I should have took my money? Was at work? I want to ask him that seriously, but Adam always says this. I'm repeating with all. Adam says, but he

works for me. He says that we appreciate that, but i'd be nice. That'd be good. I think he would do it too. You got something for you, bro, can't let you leave, and he had it. All the smoke gear from my new UH line is dropping. Where can they get that? All the smoke dot store If you didn't know, now you know, go grab something. You might not look as good as us in it, but you can try. You can try. Yeah, definitely, Well, man, we

appreciate you. We want to make sure you know how important you wore to us man as a as a mentor, as an athlete, the way you live your life off the court as well. I mean, you've just been that dude, and we really feel like you know, you're still one of the greatest players of all time, and so we really appreciate your time stopping Bibe and chase your ask for three years. I finally got you. Make sure you

check out this book out now. Get the book, get everywhere Amazon, book Stories by the book Story Game out now. Happy you Finally, I appreciate you all man, and I admire what y'all are doing. Y'all. Y'all killing it, man, and the feelings mutual so here. Like I said, the fact that you got to unload, that's a heavy way to carry. And you guys need to write books at some point when at the times right, tell y'all got stories that definitely completely everybody. You know what I'm saying.

I'm telling y'alluzzle pieces together with Gee, thank you man, I appreciate. This is how I know. It's something some feelings expressing here. You ain't get no fresh cut on the bone the coach. No, I wonder that was on purpose? It was, trust me, I know like it was. It was intentional, you know, symbolism that yes, I can't wait. I'll tell y'all should write a book that's a rap rant. Hell. You can catch some Showtime Basketball, YouTube and the hard

platform Black Effects. See you all next week. Peace, go get the book. This is all a smoke A production of The Black Effect and Our Heart Radio in partnership with Showtime