Cheryl Miller on Caitlin vs. Angel vs. JuJu, the 105-Point Game & Who Wins a 1v1 vs. Reggie Miller?

This episode is presented to you by DraftKings. The crown is yours. Welcome back to all the Smoke. We got a nice couple of days out here in La Jack.

Yes, happy to be back in La La Land.

And man, what better way to start it been with a legend. Legend. We were actually supposed to sit down with you, and then the La fires broke out.

Yes, and everybody's safe.

We had to reschedule, but thank you for making time. Welcome to the show. Cheryl Miller.

Hey, she she is also someone When I first came in and I did I did T and T once or twice, she told me that I would be great in doing media.

She told me it's long, so she started lying to you early.

She told me long to know.

You know what this is really, this is surreal for me because watching you young men, you guys are just my baby starting out in the league, and my microphone was like kryptonite to summer of y'all. I mean, you put that like in your face. But now you guys your own show and interviewers, and it's a it's really nice to see you guys come full circle.

Three time Player of the Year, two time National championship, two time tournament MVP, first woman to dunk in an organized game, go medalist, and that's just a few when we sit back your Unfortunately, I don't think the game of women's basketball was ready for you at the time you came. I think a lot of people say you were ahead of your time from a standpoint of there was college and then it was it was kind of

You know, guys, I'm asked question a lot, and it's it's forced me to really pause and think about it. I have no regrets, I truly don't. Before me, there was Anne Myers, there was Nancy Lieberman, there was Lynette Woodard. So we are basically all in the same boat. Anyways, you know, somebody had to be the first, and as far as I was concerned, I was just glad to know eventually I wasn't the only girl playing basketball and balling.

You recently coached the w BA All Star Game. You sposed some time with Caitlyn Clark.

Best coaching job ever.

Best the job being around Kaitlin Clark. I was the experience why she's such a big star. I mean, this guy's limit for her to be around her. Just talk about the type of person she is, how much she loves the game.

I'm gonna be honest because it needs to be said. I can relate to that young lady, and I felt for her. I know what it's like to be hated. I know what it's like to be a black woman and hated because of my skinned color. I can't imagine this young lady. I don't want to use hate, but despised and people just having I mean, and look, I mean she brought some on herself a little bit because she's cocky for a good reason.

Confident, and I love that about her.

But to watch the dynamics and the media, they had their narrative, and I was pleased and proud to see the narrative. Wasn't the truth?

Right?

An angel and her got along so well, and watching them practice and yeah, yeah, yeah, just get it out, and Kayle's like, just fly, just fly, just fly, and watching her pass and I didn't know how talented she was and how well she sees the game in a three D version, thinker defensively a lot better than I thought, and gave her credit for so watching her and just spending a little time. And one of the guys that I've learned is to step back and let these kids

She handled it in in a graceful way as well.

Some of your peers, they like, they will recognize, you know, her game, but they won't recognize her impact.

How can you separate the two.

It's kind of you know, and I used to and you know, Jack, you're absolutely right. And I was like, I was like, come on, you big dummies. Is she getting hyped? Yes, but she was in the backyard. She was putting in the same time, sometimes maybe more than you were. I can't fault her for what she was given, but you know, I mean, look, as much as she was given, you can't tell me if that door would have swung the other way where she didn't live up

Come on.

So with that being said, you big dummies, you getting paid now? Can every I mean everybody now has an opportunity to pull up their chair and have a seat. So that's that's the only thing. And thank god, I don't listen, I don't follow social media, and I can really care less because I've been delivered from being a people pleaser and what you think about me, me too. But I will tell you one thing. I'm just glad that these young ladies who are at the upper upper top,

Do you see any correlation with Caitlin and Angel Reese what they've done for them BBA as to what Magic and Bird did when they came in at the same time.

Oh?

Absolutely, right, absolutely, And you know, I'm sure that that Larry and IRV used to laugh at you know, white against Black.

Yeah, yeah. And they loved each other.

East Coast WINSCA loved each other, loved each other and respected one another and understood that this this this rivalry, this tension, whatever it was, for the betterment of the game. But they never got caught up into it.

Yea.

And those two are the foundation of the great stories and narratives coming out of the n c a A now flooding the Dove, which helps the dove. So that's, you know, my main thing. I want to see how we as women because again I know they're gonna get mad at me for saying this. We can be petty, we can be shortsighted.

No, no, this is my first.

We can.

But I'm just hoping that we can embrace one another where they're playing for the Dove or you're playing and unrivaled.

Which I love you wish you could got some of that. I know you was going to watch.

It that like, come on with the cross out of knees.

Yet come.

I got nothing?

Mad love?

Yeah?

What and and and that whole league, what they've done and their mindset and the business aspect and the savviness and to get there, you know, to build that infrastructure financially, that was the first thought. And when I saw that, oh they got this, they got this is about to roll up. So and I just hope, again backtracking, that we as women can understand and embrace. We all have a seat at the table, and it's for the betterment of the sport.

Support support support. I've seen you sidelines at several SC games female SC games that I've pulled up to. Juju has been blazing her trail at SC and slowly but surely knocking on some doors that you put up. What are your thoughts on her game and just the way she's kind of been able to put SC basketball women's basketball back to the forefront.

First and foremost. A tremendous talent and for someone who's been skyrocketed into the spotlight, it's not just the spotlight. She's playing at USC and you've got the McGee twins, Cynthia Cooper, myself, Lisa Leslie, Pina Thompson.

They're Hall of famersamers.

Yeah, and now you're expected to not just achieve and arrive, but you've got to elevate it. You got to make your next mark. And to watch this young lady come in as a freshman and poised just even kill you know, I wanted to see when things got tough, when she got the wood laid on her, she was laying on her back, and you know who was helping up or was she getting herself up? Because I knew she was

It's important. What are your thoughts on women having to wait four years to make that jump? Is that an outdated rule? Do you think it suits the game because she has to?

It's a god bless that that rule is there. Yes, it needs to stay there until you know the dove finally. Financially can why if you are a top five.

You're making more money.

In college?

No? I would. I would really love to, Like now that's when you'd see me step out and slap somebody. I'm like, what are you talking about?

What do you think actually going backwards for them?

Big time?

Yeah?

Big time? You hurt your brand early to go. You know, wait, wait, wait, make this This is your foundation. This is where your money is, you know, for right now, right now, it's it's kind of backwards. Where for you guys, the regular season was where you made your money, but the playoffs is where you made your fame. So right now, NCAA where you make.

Your money exactly, the dove is.

Where you make your fame. That's your legacy.

Interesting, there's been a movement of late for you to gain a later leadership position in the w NBA. People have been talking and whispering. I don't know if you've actually heard it, but you have since Do you have any interest in being a part of any kind of leadership structure in the w n B A.

I thought about coaching, Okay, okay, I'll be honest. After after beating Team U s A and all a sudden, I was like, yeah, I was like, okay, I'm ready to get back in there. But then reality said and.

I'm like, there's a lot of work.

That's a lot of work. There's there's drafting, and then there's actually communication, and there's getting your staff together, and then you've got your president, you've got your GM. And yes, that's too much work a lot.

What about above that, though? What about it?

Now that you know what, I would love to be consultant and a consultant in this respect. Bad decision, you stupid. You need to be fired.

Bye bye, I I'll do that.

She could play she you know, trade her? What were you thinking?

Okay, that's what the game needs.

That's it.

There's just now that's like honesty.

And just you and your feelings. Get old, be quiet. I'm gonna pray about you.

But yeah, that's great. Probably that's how gregs to talk to us.

Hey, I just I'm just about you know. Look, I just turned sixty one in January.

Related amazing. By the way, Thank you, thank you smoking there, You're lucky. I'm taking.

Welcome to all the smoke. Welcome to all the smoke.

We touched on arrivals a little bit. Obviously a league that has been put together very well. It allows women to not have to go over the world. Yes, yes, and make money. The ability to get that many stars in any sport is incredible. They got the best of the best from their league. How do you think the w NBA feels about this and what is the future?

I don't know for sure, but I can only imagine. Initially, I'm sure the Dove was in their feelings. But again, we've got we've got to learn from our successes and our mistakes. I thought the first three years of the Dove explosion excitement whatnot. I thought after that they rested on their laurels and the laurels they didn't do the leg work. They didn't pick up the phones and make sure that the same people that are buying these season tickets that they're still you know, how can we, you know,

Let's get to your upbringing.

You say, well, I'm because I'm just thinking about it from the question. I took a lot of als from your brother. Uh, I don't even know if I gotta win every day we shoot, you know before like women up for games. He used to come like three hours before us, but he used to come back on warm up. I'm probably like maybe forty two and forty two. Brother, How did it feel busting his ass and the driveway growing up?

How did that feel?

Hey? You know what, he suffered a lot of l He did suffer a lot of l And when I tied shifted, Oh, it was, oh, it's like yesterday. It was my freshman year in college, coming home, you know for Christmas break and the last time I saw rich she was like maybe you know six' one, you know, so I still had an inch or something on him. He was upstairs. I said, come on, man, let's you know,

And your sister talking.

Kimmer Ran Kim and Rad Kim and Red you want some of this? And I got past some guys. I was like, and I was laughing to our come on baby, and I hear pended, pended, and I don't know what happened, because this is when the whole mental illness things and things got blurry and went into slow motion. And I remember like landing and then looking back and he's still up there, looking down with the ball still pinned, pulled it down. He goes, I'm gonna give you another trot.

That's when you knew I was done.

I was done. Tried to come back the next day and play in a stupid game called horse.

Yeah. I know how that feels.

Can't blame in anything. But I got a question for you, then, what kind of teammate was he?

I think for me, I played with some you know, Tim Duck and David Robinson. But I think he gave me the one of the greatest compliments. He told Donnie Nelson, I mean Donnie Walshing Larry Bird that he wanted to come in to be a success because remember he retired the second year. I got that, and they knew they would bring somebody into Phillips shoes. I knew I couldn't be Reggie will know where close, but the fact that

I appreciate that.

I remember you said. I mean, that was one thing that Jack definitely said. He's like, that brawl, you know happened. It is what it is. But he said, the thing they regret the most is that let your brother down because they felt like that team was capable of winning a championship.

I remember watching that that that whole thing happened, and it was surreal watching Meta run at the time and he's on the scorer's table and right, and he had that injury. He was hurt and I remember he has his hand on his chest and he just for a split second and then run's up in the stands.

The only person wrong listened to was Reggie.

I remember calling Reggie and I'm not afterwards because I had the process that I know that Reggie had to process that. And I go, I said, how you doing? He goes. He goes, Cheryl, They're gonna they're gonna lower the boom. We're going to get a death sentence. He goes, Cheryl. He's like, Dean, we could have want this, we could have want this whole thing. And to hear to hear that in his voice and yeah, that that that was tough.

Any time you talked to him about it, you can see it. You can see it like we had a conversation before. You know, we we and we we get emotional because we know.

What does that look? Jackson goes look, yeah, yeah, And I'm like, man, man, oh man.

Every time somebody asks Reggie about me and Ron, though he speaks so highly of us like that, he gives them the opposite of what every time.

He gives everybody ample opportunity to like sive you guys, but he loved you guys. He absolutely loved you guys, because what was the word what was the phrase? He goes, he goes those, he goes those guys. Cheryl never broke character.

Yeah, never broke characters.

You gotta you have to receive goes. I respect guys who they never broke character.

What was he thinking when you scored one hundred and five points in a single game?

He was happy until he found about about that. But no, he's he came home and we you know, because we played when I was at home, he was on the road with the you know, the boys team, and and my dad was like, well, I can't wait till you. I don't know how you read how Reggie's going to handle it.

I know you guys are not interrupt You guys are two grades apart, right to you, one one grade apart, two years apart, one one year, yes, yes, yes, one grade.

So he came home and he's like, dang, guess what I was killing him today? I said, go ahead, what happened? He said, Oh, I think he's had something like you know, I scored thirty six. I was making the rain everywhere everything I was just falling. It was falling, and my Dad's just sitting at the count.

Oh yeah, matter, fuck your day up right.

Reggie goes so and he goes, how'd you go? I had a good game? Reg He goes, oh, okay, well, you know, because you guys got to understand. He goes, well, he started with the number fifty. Well, I had scored fifty four before, I had scored sixty one before, I had scored seventy seven before. He had a few numbers to play with.

He had a few numbers to play with, so he said.

What's so, yeah, fifty, I said no, and he looks at my dad, and my dad's like, he goes, okay, sixty. No, he goes, now, he looks like he said that sick feeling like that sick look. He's like, start stuttering, yeah, seventy and he goes no. He goes He's like, do you know I'm divorcing? I said, because I gotta make it. I gotta make it work for the number. And he goes, what I said? Uh. He goes, he said, you did you say? I said, I said one hundred and five and he just lets out this. He's like, mom, I

But yeah, you.

Think anybody scored one hundred in the w A or NBA. I think it happened in the men's game.

Yeah, right now, we don't know in the women's game.

I wouldn't.

I'm waiting for somebody to put up seventy.

Did you have a play at U c l A men's gym? Yes, you heard, we heard you was out there busting me and ass in there. Yes, how was that?

Matter of fact? I oh, that was Remember Mike dunne.

Yvy coach do Yeah, Mike Dunley.

Yeah, he would get out there and play a shack when he first came in. We get out there, IRV all the guys.

He was out there styling. I was.

I was holding my I didn't go home with my head hanging.

Yeah. Yeah, I would have loved to see that.

But I'll tell you one thing. They didn't make it easy. They didn't easy, I can you know, and because oh my god, and they would serve it right back up to me. And I love that, And you know what, to be honest, that's a blessing in itself. And maybe that's one of the main reasons why making that transition into broadcasting into the NBA that you guys gave me so much respect and stuff. You know, so I appreciate you guys.

Because we know you spoke from experience. You really did it, Yeah, you really did.

I did some things.

Our instrumental was your pops, military guy, to raise two competitive athletes great athletes.

I don't know how y'all wasn't twined. Y'all look so much alike, But is he?

Is he the reason for the competitive competitives and the ship talking.

No, Reggie did that. That was that was already. That was that was already. Reggie did that out of necessity in the in the household, because you got Reggie Reggie growing up, he just physically he was thin. He had some physical ailments about him. He was not need and he had to have his knees reset and just just pop belly bad hair conditioning up.

You know, how would you explain Reggie's jump shot, the genesis of his jump shot throughout the year, because.

A lot of it was, you know, because I was always in his face, so he would almost it would almost click. And I don't know how many countless coaches tried to change his shot. Then my Dad's like, don't mess with the shot. Don't you touch his shot. You could work on anything else, but leave his shot alone. Because my dad was a firm believer. That's something that you day in, day out practice, and that was part

You led sc to back to back national titles and were named tournament.

I was one. I was one of many on that team.

Yeah you helped, thank.

You, Yes, thank you.

I assisted. I love that I assisted.

But you were also named MVP both times, so you did a little bit more than that. What was the environment like back then, I mean, obviously the press. I'm a UCLA guy, but always had a lot of respect for what SC has always meant in the sports world. What was l A like back then?

For you?

This is the one thing that did bother me, you know, forget you sl A. You know, just the rivalry. What really used to mess with all the sisters, like the female athletes at SC. Why did all the good looking brothers go to U S l A.

I don't know, real, I don't know, I don't know, Jack, Like, that's not just you know, I mean.

I need to hear this today.

This is this is why our Liz was like, come on, but yeah, yeah, but anyways, I'm just thinking about all the guys that used okay, may get me go somewhere Russian.

Never sure saying huh what was that? I mean, I remember, you know, us playing there. We never really looked at it. I don't think maybe the school or that the students looked at it.

Like.

I didn't have an issue with nobody on s C. I actually loved SC football because that's back when they had Reggie Bush and all those guys. Like, did you guys look at it as like f U C l A. Or was it just more fun?

Of it was. It was it was a rivalry.

USC in the hood, though, ain't it. Yeah?

Oh back in the day, Oh, back in the day. It was like, you know, you get your game on like this and then you know, you cross the street.

Yeah yeah, yeah, I heard yeah, making sure you know.

In the middle of it.

It was no joke. You turned down that wrong alley if you want to. And that was another thing. Yeah, we we lived in real Los Angeles.

Yeah yeah, yeah, I'm more USC than Yah about that.

But no, when it came to when it came to to basketball and Reggie, yeah, I mean I I wouldn't wear anything you sel a, but I made sure that there was nobody up in the stands that had a thought in their mouth.

Yeah yeah, I love it, do it. This is the same.

I mean, the same time you're you're winning championships, the Showtime Lakers are winning championships as well.

So what is.

Right?

We were Showtime. Look, our our practices were brutal. I've got Cynthia Cooper running her mouth. Tracy Longo, nobody remember well she was my height, white girl that could jump out the gym, and we battled each other throughout high school. You had the McGee twins, and you know, we had Ronda Windham, a point guard from the Bronx, so we had little bit of everything. So our practices coached just basically rolled out the ball was great in allowing us

It was.

And then you had the you know, we had Magic and the Lakers and you know them coming in occasionally watching us play. And we were playing at the time at the Sports Arena. So yeah, we were showtime.

I love it. I love it.

I'm gonna give you some names.

I want you to tell me what you think.

Debs just like a brother. She was a rebounder, Dennis sister right the family.

Yeah, Pam McGee did her dirty in the in the championship game because she got in her ear started talking to her, say, I can't believe Kim Moulky just missed that you were wide open. You had me pinned talking to her throughout the gain. Man, I can't believe Kim Moulkey just sat Janice Lawrence. Won't you even to pass you Out's a high loan and you got me pinned behind And then all of a sudden she starts talking,

Her, like her brother.

Uh.

Pam McGee one of my former teammates, Mom JaVale McGee's mom.

Pam hardest working block, the block, hustle, rebounder, will not be denied on the boards. Physical funny. Would you know she would pause to think sometimes I'm like, are you hearing something? But I now know she was just pausing the thing, you know. Yeah, great teammate, Great teammates Cynthia Cooper who we could not see I to eye on anything.

Shacking Kobe.

Oh it was, And I will say she was. She was Kobe and I had some shock in her because I had I had some shock in me. Where Kobe, you can be you, but you ain't gonna tell me how to do?

You know?

And I would. I would sit there, I'm like, Cooper, do you ever shut up? Let me just add, I just do you ever shut up? And older?

Older?

And and I was, look, coming out of high school, you're hearing you the end all be all. I started drinking my kool laid at a very young age. So now I got this other mouth who wants to go at me. I've got, you know, and I'm look. I knew I was good, but I didn't believe I was good. So I was I was insecure. So you're gonna challenge me. I ain't gonna ain't no punk. I mean live at Riverside, but I ain't no punk. So she would come out from Wats and she would say that I'm from I'm.

Like an.

Taste the same, yeah, the same want you know, I mean, And we were sitting I mean, you know, and you know the twins are like, sure she's from Watson. That with Papa. I don't care, no no, but on the court, simpotico, simpotico. But I will say one thing, A couple of things about Cynthia, a self made, driven superstar Hall of Famer, so well deserved.

But not least Kim Mulkey oh, coach.

I used to call her dead of South. You're just dead of South. So that South South, brilliant basketball mind, tremendous IQ, great floor general, fierce competitor, is the one one of the should have been the starter of the Olympic team.

Hands down. Really who was the starter?

Lee Henry m hmm?

Interesting and.

That was Pat's player, Pat Summitt, the late great Pat Summits. But Kim Moulkey, hands down, should have been the starter because I'm telling you when when she would come in, she's like, Miller, I just need you to fly. You just fly, I'll get the ball to her. She would

Is she misunderstood. She kind of gets a bad rap.

Now just swagging. She's doing it her way.

Man, Kim is Kim Kim Kim wait Kim is never broke, never broke character.

Huh. I love that, never broke character.

What you see is what you get if you don't like it.

Bucket Fresh too.

Oh yeah, oh yeah, she just you know, she's she's the female.

Libaraci nineteen eighty two, the first woman ever to dunk. I don't know if on record. We did a lot of research in an organized game.

So so you just we gotta stop you. Now you're gonna take your flowers from us. You've been trying to deny him and weave them and all that, and you're gonna sit it and take your flowers from us today.

I'm take them.

Look, because you guys, they'll fat fat.

We do a lot of research. We do a lot of research, you know.

But there's no there's a Georgiana Wells, Dylan see Georgiana Wells I believe was the first recorded player.

Is that in the game or just in the game? Oh really in the game?

Okay, Georgiana Wells. Georgiana Wells, go.

Ahead, we'll google that. Well what did that mean to you that day, in that moment to put a dunk down in the game?

Extra, that's kool Aid Baby extra extra sugar tips?

Was it analine like it was.

A take flight? What was what? There were dunks, but they weren't considered dunks where I would get a tip dunk because she just pushed the ball in. And you know, back then, it was like they, oh, she just pushed the boat.

It was dump dump.

And now my dad said, you know, you do know you dunk that. I said, but they said, I pushed it in. He's like, here you go. But once I it was a it was a breakaway still and it was one of those you guys have been on those floors. There's something about the floor.

Stanford used to yeah, Stamford, Oh, sacrament to me, no, Stanford, SA, Sacramento was like that. Stanford used to have a springy floor.

Man, Stamford, you kid. Yeah. As soon as I got that still and I hit the free throw line, I crossed over and I took off where.

I know him. I'm like, okay, I'm up here.

Y hit it and I landed and I started running back and all my teammates are running over, were high five and the stuff and the official I look back in the she's just taking a ball in that and He's just standing there like.

Did It's like, what the I was like, that's me. That's me, baby, that's me.

Obviously heavily decorated college career, drafted by several leagues after college, including the usb L, which is the men's league. Did you ever consider possibly playing with men?

She grew up. I mean, you know what you don't.

You don't hang out in the summer at U c l A and not get a big dose pointing with the big boys of reality, you know. And I certainly I didn't have the handles to be a point guard, not even close of what that and that's the only position I could have played. But physically, like physically no, no, I mean it would have been nice to actually try it, but by that time I had blown up my knee. That was you know, that was the determining factor for

Do you feel like, and I mean you if if anyone one could have it could have possibly been you. Do you feel like, what is the difference outside of strength and speed with women being able to possibly cross over and play man. Have you feel like there has been a woman that could have crossed over and played with the men.

No, no, it is. It is straight a physical barrier that just in my lifetime right now, I don't believe I'll ever see. I just don't. I don't see because you guys continue to get bigger, stronger, and faster. I mean, I would have never thought that you'd have a seven to seven kid, no shooting threes. You know, shooting threes and you know it's just we there. There's that evolution gap that will never be closed between a man and a woman.

Interesting. I don't want to butcher her name, but the seventh foot sylviet.

Woman, Juleanna Simonova, woman nova?

What was she like?

I mean dominant? You got a chance to come up in the same time, all.

Right, pitcher? Yeah, all mean okay, picture of this, y'all mean two inches?

Is that boy shorts?

No?

They those were like the like briefs.

They're like yeah, no, no, no, that's that's a onesie.

That's a onesie. No no, no, no, no, that was a separate talk got nothing.

Like the So she had the jersey top with the granny panty bottom. Yes, crazy, yeah, no, no, what the top?

That's crazy?

Now, it's not the bell that's the trail on the end of the jersey.

No, that's crazy.

What was her game like.

Back to the basket? I mean, what were you going to do?

Right?

Didn't have you know, obviously it wasn't tremendous foot speed, but at seven to two and could get up the floor. But all she had to do was get down the floor anywhere and on the block and it's a wrap.

Yeah, it's a rap.

Trying to get past her in the middle, it's a rap. What the Soviet team was so great at You had eighty year old women who had played together since they were in cribs coming out of the cribs. So you had a professional team for Daming. They're close to fifty years and it was a stranglehold on international basketball and their players. The permimeter players were faster, stronger, better shooters. They were a machine and then you put that in the middle. They were unbeatable.

When did you feel like you guys caught up on the international side, the women?

It started, matter of fact, in seventy nine. It was I wanted to say a few of the members was Nancy Lieberman, An Myers Drysdale, Carol Blas Jawski and Lynette Woodard. They were in Soul, Korea. I don't know if it was the World Championships or the Jones Cup, but they finally beat them in nineteen seventy nine, and then we got them in eighty six, and after that it was a round. Yeah, it was the decline of the Soviet.

Why do you feel that there's so many European I use that as a broad name men coming over and having a ton of success, but we don't see as many women coming over from there.

That's a great question, that's a really good question. I'm not sure if they're not experiencing the same obstacles we did early on because there was such an investment and not only the men's college game and AAU and all that, but their club teams are far superior internationally, So I'm not sure there's been that catch up between a lot of great institution college institutions internationally as there is in

You that, Yeah has been ahead of the current. Are you gone? He's been getting girls overseas for a while.

He's been He's been plucking him from the national he knows teams. What do you think will there ever be an international player that will be the face of the NBA?

I think so.

I think I think we're real closer than ever with Lebron stepping down. Guys like Anthony l was coming out saying they don't want to be the face, Like I think it's going to be given to one of those international guys.

I think so. I think I think might be the guy.

Is that? What's the stigma?

Or we heard Kad talk about that the other day, Like what does it mean?

What does it mean?

What does that come with? What is the face of the game? Come with a lot of praise, a lot of critique, a lot of ship talking, a lot of disrespect. And this is a different generation, Like we said we kind of in KG always us we had to look at this new generation through a new lens and their wants and needs and wise are a lot different than ours.

Work, So how didn't want.

How different is the game? Since you guys played, honestly, what's what's your take?

I look at it like this. We love the game, they love the game, can do form big difference, and.

I just think too. I mean, obviously, the plan was to grow this into a global game, and we came in at the end of a really physical era, and there was still some physicality in the late nineties early two thousand we first came in, and that's kind of disappeared, you know what I mean. I think scoring is at the utmost, three point shootings at the utmost, and highlights have what been able to me to grow the game,

Now that's it.

That's lock in and stay focused. I also say too, I mean, it's just you know, I think that money international players are talented enough to be the face, but I don't know if they'll ever be an international player could be probably deserving, but I don't know if they'll ever be one as the face of an American game.

And international players attitude still is like our attitude if we don't show up and play, we're gonna lose our job.

They don't.

American players don't feel like that we're gonna get the job. The jobs is here for us. But then now in the national players that's coming over, it's not a lot of them, so they feel like, I got to show up and play every night to keep my job, and that's that was our attitude.

Is then in trouble, yes, if they don't get back to the competitives.

From a marketing standpoint, I think so.

I wouldn't say they are because you got to look at the just look at the Luca move, Like, look what that's going to do to the Luca coming to the Lakers. The Lakers are already the biggest brand in the world. How much bigger they're gonna get over the water now because Luca is wearing that seventy seven jersey. I don't know if they'll be in trouble. I think they'll be puris to like, how are these you know,

So the NBA survives because of the influx of talented and international.

Players, right, But see that can hurt the league too, Like just say Luca become the face of the league. You give the faces of the league as somebody who doesn't play defense, who doesn't work, you know all the.

Things they saying about him. So this is the face of the league.

So that's the bad part about it, right, You want somebody like, for me, Russell Westbrook should be the face of the league. Where he approaches the game. He don't get no trouble off the court. Every game he played one hundred ten percent. Do we play to the standard of defans, No, not every night, but the effort is there and he's showing up. That's what you're playing for, you know what I'm saying. And people don't understand that

We know you really don't care. That's that's how I look at it. As a player.

I mean, they say, you know, ratings are down thirty plus percent. But they also say that social media it's.

Never been bigger really, because we're in social media area.

Social media and the engagement with NBA around the world has never been bigger than it is.

That's what they count.

But the linear numbers are down, but that's older people who sit and watch TV. That's not necessarily the demo anymore.

I just can't wait for the playoffs.

There, you got it.

The business is great business. All they care about, yes, all they care about and it's showing. It's showing you care more about the business than the actual game. But I think that I mean, Adam Silver has some work to do. He has some things to figure out, you know, what to do with his all star situation, you know what to do with that hot Is load management going to be something that will always be here? Will guys ever be allowed to get back to playing physical defense?

What do I do off the ball?

And that's why I think your international players come in and play well, because they play such a great team concept and understand how to play off the ball.

But I think Grigs probably need to come back and explain what low management is because they took the They didn't took for what he was using. Oh my god, they took it and twisted it to a whole where you can just sit out and get paid and don't play. That why that ain't why Pop did it. That ain't why Pop did it.

He did it.

He starts sitting guys in the season going into the playoffs because guys played a lot of minutes doing those eighty two games. They probably missed one or two games. And it was only guys like Tim Duncan, David Robinson. It wasn't none of the young guys. You're gonna play regardless, you know what I'm saying. So now you got guys who two years in the league low manager, Like, come on, now, that's crazy.

That is it's crazy.

Pop get a chance to put his influence on the league. It'll get back. It'll get back.

Quick hitters. First thing to come to mind. Let us know, top five women hoopers.

Of all time. I'm gonna put you on the spot. You in there?

What top five women hoopers of all time?

Not gonna do it on top five you've played with?

Really not gonna do.

You're not putting in the trick bag.

Oh my god.

Now, you know what if you'd asked me that question maybe a year or two ago, three years ago, when I wasn't trying to be around women's basketball, I'd have thrown so many people under the bus. Now now that I'm trying, now that I'm trying.

To everybody, one thing I respected this whole interview is every time we asked a question, you kind of sit back and take a deep breath first because I feel like some ship want to come out. But then you give us something like just what you said right now?

You know what that is?

That's the Holy spirit?

Yeah?

Alright, Lord, I ain't gonna say nothing Lord like that.

What's your guilty pleasure? Wow?

Oh?

There? There They're on a week day, a week after weekday afternoon walking up to Universal Studios and watching a matinee.

Really, that's dope.

That's it.

That's it, just walking up there watching depending on the movie.

That's some of the best sleep have you in the movie My God?

And you know the ones and you know the seats ever since?

Yes, and it's dark and the set failure.

That's it. That's it.

I love it absolutely one album, unrepeat.

Ohio State Players.

Ohio Players, Love Train, Love Train, five, Dinner gainst Dead, are Alive five plus five dead or alive?

Doctor King, Michelle Obama, Will Chamberlain.

You get a chance to meet him?

Yes, the stories I can tell about that in this way, Will was a player?

Play off the course the word I ain't the word.

Play, I hain't the word.

We ain't talking about basketball.

And off the court, off the course, indeed, what am I?

What am I to?

More?

Maya, Angelou and Jesus.

One message to young female hoopers.

Don't drink your kool aid.

Oh okay, I don't drink your own cool aid.

Don't drink your own kool aid.

Red orange, simple, purple, purple blue. Yeah, we didn't say the flavor was yeah, the color. If you can see one guest on our show, who would it be? But you have to help us get your answer on the show. Yeah, I mean we haven't had your god damn brother yet.

God damn. I mean, I didn't want to say it. Bro. I got down. I hit him for this, he said. I didn't talk to him a million times.

You can't get him on the show.

We ain't turning us down.

He just always busy. He's in Milwaukee, he said, this weekend or this this run for us him on that damn bike.

Tell the ped.

Well you you help us and with me and jackill continue to work on. We love to sit down with your brother.

That's some story. Now you want some story.

Oh no, you talking about your story about you? About I want to hear about Larry Brown and how that wasn't you know, what what was it like to really be coached by Larry Bird.

Brown Bird Bird, I wasn't coached by Larry I know.

That's what I want to I want.

He was a great he was a great president and gentle amount of team. That's who called me and gave me my biggest contract. Like I was in my neighborhood, sitting in the corner with my friends, and I got a phone call from Lar Bird and put I'm like, y'all, Slarry Bird. Everybody got up, start rolling up instantly. I'm like, and Larry Bird told me, welcome to the Indiana Paces. We're giving you such such contract. And that's that's all he had to do for me. I'm in death for life.

Wait wait wait wait wait wait wait, So he calls what were you expecting him to call? For? What reason?

Or No?

I wasn't expecting him to call.

I was getting ready to sign with the Pacers, right, and I thought, Donnie Washington, my agent, was gonna call me.

So you got the call, Larry. They told Larry to call in my neighborhood.

You had to be hyped on that one went crazy, you know that one of the calls, you get up and everybody take off running.

One of them, one of them phone calls.

I'll never forget it. Larry Bird called me.

All right, I had a quick question for you guys. Toughest player you ever played against offensively?

Kobe defensively run a test really by far? This is good. He can win MVP at Defensive Player the Year multiple years if this was right.

Yes, best coach you ever played for.

I'm gonna give you a best and favorite Okay, best by fars, Greg Popovich favorite Don Nelson because he believed in me, he believed it.

I would say best, Damn. I played for some great coaches. I would say best is probably Phil Jackson because Phil and Phil, if you were able to get on that court, it is only because he trusted you. So that's why he just sat there and lets you let us play. Phil didn't do too much screaming and barking and ship. He sat on his extended super high chair. And if you were able to get on the court for him, that means he really trusted and believed in you.

We both played for some great coaches, Love Brown, Mike Brown.

Rick Adaman. For me, Stanvean, it was a good coach. He just phoned out his mouth every time he talked, but he was a good coach.

Coach.

All right, My last final question. You're probably not gonna answer this, but I'm gonna put you guys on the spot. Laziest teammate that could have been great?

Oh oh oh for.

Me, laziest teammate that could have been great? David Harrison, Remember David, Yeah, he was with us in fight out.

He was crazy, bro.

But I'm telling you three hundred pounds with a forty plust vertical M hmm, unbelievable. By can catch can run all that?

Just up here? Bro is up here.

I wouldn't, I don't. I don't want to use the word lazy. I would use maybe it was tracted and could have been great? Was Baron Davis. I don't want to say lazy because I don't really I wasn't around at the business all the other ship.

I think Baron could have been in damn firm or lazy.

He was lazy, no, no, nois He was lazy.

Okay.

All his energy was at the clubs. He used to show up to practice with no shoes on because he left the shoes in the club. This type of person we're talking.

About, that's crazy. That's crazy. I want to ask you one last question for we get you out of here, all right. And you didn't give us the women's side, so you got to give us this side. Rank these three in order your order, m J. Kobe Lebron, you're gonna do that one. Come on now, even running all day, we let you slide on the other ones.

Kobe Lebron, No one knows where I live.

Oh your brother, do though?

You guys can't get a hold of them.

So I.

Gotta go with m J. Lebron and then Kobe, and not at all you can because when you look at Lebron, Lebron, in my opinion too, it's the greatest phenomenal specimen of a specimen of an athlete physically, a physical I don't know if we'll ever see a physical marvel of someone of his magnitude. And it's just not it's his. You got to take that and the longevity everything, Okay, Lebron, MJ.

Kobe, I ain't mad at that.

I ain't at that.

You can talk to me. I've got it. I just got from longevity and he is still balling.

And not to mention all that. I mean, I'll be talking basketball all the great shit he does off the court as well.

You know what, This is why these guys are great interviewers. Don't give me all these particulars afterwards. Oh, you can include this, include that he's a social activist.

And all this kind of stuff.

But you know what, if you put that, then it's clearly Lebron of what he does off the court things that yeah, I And then okay, now if you're gonna add activism to it, then it's gonna be Lebron Kobe and then MJ. If you're gonna throw that in there, because Kobe has done so much not only for for your game, but for women's game and.

What his daughter g would have a lot of stuff. All those guys do don't get highlighted, as I.

Agree, And that's what I love about about certain athletes. You never know what their left hand is doing. Right. You may see this, but you never know what their left is. And I respect that.

I respect players that so many old folks, homes that in the hospitals that MJ and built in his mom's name. A lot of people don't talk about that either, you know what I mean. So they all do great things.

So it's then one, two three better than.

Any order.

You see.

You can't go wrong first, and they're still there's still building, building and contributing.

What y man.

We appreciate your time and and honor done for the game and and and and continue to do.

We got some thank you the books.

There got a book and some shirts and.

I appreciate that, guys, thank you, thank you.

That's a wrap that's ours. We got a coffee table book that's a wrap. Cheryl one of the greatest to ever do it. A great player, but even better person. You can catch this on all the Smoke Productions YouTube and the DraftKings Network. We'll see y'all next week, speaks.

To the Plannet.

I go by the name of Charlamagne the God, and guess what. I can't wait to see y'all at the third annual Black Effect Podcast Festival. That's right with coming back to Atlanta, Georgia, Saturday, April twenty six at Poeman Yards and it's hosted by none other than Decisions, Decisions, mand B and Weezy. Okay, we got the R and B Money podcast with taking Jay Valentine.

We got the Woman of All.

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