Welcome back all the smoke twenty twenty six.
We get to start with a banger man New Year.
Shout out Netflix Devils for this partnership and obviously giving us the opportunity to sit down with our next guest, someone I'm a huge fan of, been a fan for a long time yep, and has something called How's a company called Artist Equity which we're going to get into, which I think is absolutely amazing. But without further ado, welcome to the show. Ben a Flack.
Legend, legend app You've been good to be here. Thank you very much to be here.
Man a new movie release coming soon the Rip January sixteenth, got a chance to watch it last night. This is the first partnership between Netflix and Artists Equity of production company. You and Matt Launchton twenty twenty two. Your company is pretty revolutionary when it comes to the streaming age, but also the structure in which people who work for your rewarded. Can you break that down?
Yeah? Sure, this is the first time.
Look like, you know, we had these strikes a couple of years ago and this business we were talking just before we started, you know, like things are changing a lot, right, and so there's a lot of uncertainty and a lot of fear. And one of the things is like, hey, you know, costs got to come down and blah blah blah, and and yet you know, you have this whole streaming universe that's obviously really expanding, has a lot of value.
In the old days, you understood what the value was of stuff you did because you know, you see the box office and and that kind of thing, and there was a value associated with it. And so during the strikes, one of the things that we were trying to work with the guilds and trying to volunteer was like to create a like a streaming residual structure because in the old days, like if you're on a TV show on network or in a movie, you know, you knew how successful it was as an actor, you get paid a
residual right according to how how successful it was. And when this model came along, it really changed things. And so what we're trying to do with this is implement the first performance based compensation structure where you know, we've
worked with Netflix and very grateful and appreciate it. They've been really open engaging in this, and I think they wanted to work so that they can kind of like implement this sense of fairness where like, so if you're an actor in this, this movie or where you worked on, I've got twelve hundred people in the crew, all of them are part of this bonus structure, and we kind of set up these kind of these levels where like if in the ninety days, the same number of people
watch it as watched you know, and they give us movies that performed at a certain level in the past, X movie, Y movie Z, Like their their biggest movie I think is you know, K.
Pop Demon Hunters. So if it does that, you know, it's a lottery hit. But there's additional compensation along the way.
And the way that the reason why we wanted to do this is both because we're aware of like the business is shifting. We want to protect and solidify this. This is like a really strong and important I think
business for this community. And also, you know, I really believe that you know, when you're working on a movie, like I said, you got twelve hundred people on the crew, You've got all your cast, you've got you know, your producers and writers and everybody, and if you align them where everybody's goal is to do something that people like instead of you know, and also you know how much over time am I going to get and you know what's you know looking at the clock. My belief is
that you'll motivate people around creating the best product. Like that's the sort of team analogy.
And also it makes everyone feel like they really have skin in the game.
Right Yeah, And it recognizes the fact that I really believe and this is something that Match hears too. And with Air we try to do the same thing that like, look, everybody working on this. It really is a community effort.
You know.
It sounds sort of like bullshit or like, you know, people say shit like that, I think sometimes, but it's I really believe this. Like if people understand, oh, hey, you know, we need to work hard to get this extra shot or go a little bit further out there and get this because we want to make it good.
Because at the end of the day, you're gonna be proud if people see you and you're the whether you're a driver or work construction, or you're electrician or camera department or an actor, go like that, well.
That moved me or that touched me. That's meaningful.
And I'm trying to focus people around that goal. It also makes it easier when you're trying to do it. You're not feeling like you have people working at odds against each other, where some people like, we really don't give a shit, you know, if you're gonna get your extra shot or not because I got my kids and I gotta go a dentist.
The full well you mentioned air and that structure paid dividends for that crew, right, paid its been he did really really well.
Yeah, bonus people very well. And uh, you know, we we were able to be successful in doing that, and this is the first time that we've but that was one that was like after the fact, we were like, Okay, if we come in under, if we can accomplish these goals X, Y and Z will will bonus people, which we did. What I'm trying to do is create a mechanism, like a model, so that the next one come along.
Go okay, we'll do this too.
Where it's already pre legislating, just had to go through everybody's like a function of your salary, how much extra you're going to get at level one, two, three, four, et cetera. And so that it can be a repeatable thing that other people can do and that you kind of you know, and also historically there's been like the actors that get compensated and the crew has been kind of treated differently, like oh, it doesn't matter after the fact.
You guys just get what you get and women. But that's I'm trying to, you know, kind of unite that and you know.
We'll see what happens. People gotta people gotta watch. It's gotta be successful.
Regardless what you do.
When you treat people, when you appreciate people, they work hard for you.
You know what I'm saying. I think people love the fact that you're doing that.
That is absolutely that's the most important lesson. I realize that like you show people that you value what they're doing and that what they're bringing to the process.
Is meaningful to you.
It doesn't mean that you know everything's great, or sometimes it means going like this isn't good enough, right, we got to do better.
But when it is right and when.
It does make a difference, and you let people know, like people will die for you, like people will go the whole way for you, and that it's like selfishly for me as director as an actor, I'm like this this way of doing things.
Works as someone who broke in during a box office era movie theater era transitioning into mainly streaming. Now, what are your thoughts on just the two and the difference.
Obviously, you know, I feel like sometimes I feel like it makes me feel old, you know, because there's that tendency to be like, you know, to want to freeze the culture right where it was when you know, when you were like, you know, had that moment of like, oh, how come everybody and I, you know, is all this streaming thing and they're not going to the movies. Like yeah, I get it because when I was a kid, you know, you had three networks and then like oh here comes like uhf.
And you had a couple and then you went to the movies. There wasn't a shit else to do.
There wasn't YouTube, there wasn't TikTok, there wasn't even cable and then satellite TV. So the more options there are, you know, everybody's competing for the same dollars effectively, which is people's attention, balls, eyeballs, and and so if you do you know, if you just look at the math on that, there's only so many people and when you break it up like this.
You know, there's just more competition.
I mean, YouTube by itself, like people don't realize just you know, took a huge cut out of the entertainment business because that's where the majority of people now are watching and getting entertainment from. So you know, I feel like, look, as long as people it's also kind of like you got to take accountability, right, Like I like to go to the movies, I like to go to the movie theaters.
I myself don't go as often as I did when I was eighteen years old, So be hypocritical of me to sit here and be like, well, why isn't it the way it was when I was a kid. Well, you know, because maybe it's because you know, I'm fifty and I want to.
Like pause and like the bits and to resume the next day.
So I can't be hypocritical. But there's a lot of people that like going to the movies in theaters.
I do too.
I think that will continue. I also, it's not like when I was young. You know, my dad had like eleven inch black and white TV, you know what I mean, And that kind of sucked. Now you've a couple hundred hours, you get a sixty inch.
And you know, just look better.
Shout out Netflix. We did exactly what you said.
We started the movie, the kids started fucking acting up, so when we had to get them down in bed and put them in bed and then got to finish the movie.
You can't do it at the theaters.
Yeah, and it's unless you your stuff be seen.
You know, why aren't you on social media? I mean I see your energy, your passion. I think it would be something you would be really good in, but you choose not to.
You know, Like I give you a lot of answers. I just know I get in trouble, you know what I mean?
And I.
Yeah, man, I mean I got in enough trouble in my life to know, and I do. I like to talk and I.
Have opinions and then.
I think, like, you know, I learned early on as I've been around and been through a couple of cycles of up and down. That's also like sometimes people don't want to hear all that much from you know, from actors, and that there is a level that's kind of appropriate, But honestly that's kind of bullshit too. The truth is like I don't want to find out, you know, I don't want to deal with the backlash of something all
the time. And what I see from people that do it, even people that do it well, it's it's a huge amount of work lies and all of a sudden, I just see people sweating. I gotta post something, I gotta get something up there, and you're putting this whole other job right on top.
Of the good job. Bro. It took.
It takes a couple of years off your life. You look at your your I can career in two different arcs. I'm gonna read the quote that you said a few years back. One of the best things that happened to me was to become really successful young and to feel like a lot of people liked me and I was funny and cool and everybody laughed that they're not even so funny jokes. And then to become unpopular and uncool. To see what happened to relationships that I really believe
were real relationships. Who's calling you? Who isn't? And just to see the world change in that way. Can you expand on that.
Yeah, I mean, it's definitely I think the real Like I guess what I've come to believe is that real wisdom comes from humility, you know. And I've come to really the people that I respect and look up to, they know that what they're good at, you know, and they don't hold themselves low. But there's also a humility involved too, Like if you're sure you're right about everything and smarter than everybody, you know, first of all.
You're gonna be wrong sometimes, so you are wrong.
And and what happened with me was it was a really great lesson I did. I came in and I was young, and I got successful. You had that like classic thing that you see, and then I had three four movies that just wiped out. And at the same time, there was this whole explosion in the tabloid world and I was all over that, and it felt to people like I was like trying to put myself out there in ways, you know, which retrospect I kind of get like you resent it.
After certain points we were like, I'm stop hearing about this one for fuck you.
You know, I don't want to hear about your bullshit. I don't want to see you in your nice car.
Don't tell me how problem fuck you know.
I work at Target and it's like is hard, you know, and there's no getting around that, and there's this appetite to like, tell us more seemore, and you can it's like that social media and you can want to feed that ye with and you don't realize at.
A certain point it's too much.
And what happened to me was also frankly, the movie just didn't work because I did movies for money a few times, you know, and I had learned that lesson too, and it was like, it was a really great instruction for me, because Yeah, all the people that I thought, like, all these people are my friends or all these people I'm so funny because every time I say some dumb shit, like people are laughing, and I started saying the same jokes and nobody were laughing and people weren't calling me back,
and I was like, Wow, none of these people liked.
Me, None of these people were my friend.
None of these people give if I can't do something for people, they're ducking me. And you know, it's only
I was thirty two or something like that. I was like, that's it for me, and I went back and had to kind of start over, and it was humbling in a really healthy way in the sense that I was like, Okay, I'm gonna try to be a director, and I'm gonna try to because that's I think, you know, gonna rely that's about more like about what kind of movie do I make, not whether or not I happened to be cool me, you know, because that I'm obviously not gonna be cool all time to everybody.
And once I did that, it took a few years to get back. And during that time, I stopped needing that kind of attention or acrobation.
And I also learned that I Do'm not mad at anybody, like just you're not all my friends.
You know, you'd many friends. You don't need that many friends.
Uh.
The's people who like it's fine. They're there because they think, oh, maybe this dude can help me in And by the way, so am I. I'm not really friends with you. I'm just mad that all of a sudden you won't call me back.
So you know, less is more everybody, But you just really asked the question.
It's safe to say that directing really like rejuvenated your second quarest.
Absolutely, I think I would.
In fact, the first movie that I directed, part of my pitch was like, don't worry, I'm.
Not gonna be in it.
You know what I mean.
Like that was where my.
Acting career was like maybe you can direct, but nobody wants to see you in a.
Fucking and I had to like eat that shit.
You know what I mean, and go oh wow, like in realizing can happen that fast and once you're but also like you kind of get over yourself, you get over your ego, you.
Get over your what's my price?
I'm like, it's for free, and I'm whatever less scale salary is, I'll give it back. And I just want a chance to work. I want to do this, and I appreciated that, like I actually like doing this. It's a privilege. You're lucky to be able to do this job. And I need to get out there and prove it. I need to do something really good, you know, not okay, not good enough, not like and I need to try
to do something great. And I don't know that I'm any more talented than anybody else as a director, but I just thought, well, one thing I control is I will Nobody's gonna work me, and I will work as hard as I need to.
And that's the first movie I did. You know.
It got didn't do very well at the box office, but like the reviews were like, oh, well, you know, everybody gets lucky sometimes, you know what I mean? Like I got kind of grudging reviews, and I was able to put myself in the second movie that I directed, The.
Town, And really, if that hadn't worked like I would, that would have been the end of my acting career for sure.
It was It's old saying that since I ain't working with them, I'll work. I kind of live on that one. Since you are great at both, is the one you like more? Acting or directing?
I do?
I have to say I like directing more because it gives you.
More of a sense of you know.
One of the frustrating things for me as an actor some of these lessons early on was like you realize I didn't have control over really what was gonna happen, but it was gonna be my face out there. I have no problem if it's like you want to do it and it's you take the credit or take the hit for it, but when your face on the poster, but you got to do it way, you know, And
maybe that's like playing team sports. You know, you got this coach who wants to run a system, and then if you don't get the points your contract is going to take it. Yeah, it was similar in that way, but I like the broader sense of authorship from directing, and I Yeah, then I started to like acting a lot more because I wasn't doing it.
I was doing it when something came along that I felt.
Like doing, and I wasn't worrying about playing likable characters or trying to build some strategy about like I want to be in action movies and all this, just like I'm just gonna take parts that I like and that move me. And then it got interesting for me again in a way that it hadn't been. So you know, now it's like I really do. I do love doing it, and I had a lot of fun, like some on the rep.
You know, it's fun.
To be mad and play these like antagonistic you know, like old friends.
But then when you're like, oh are you betraying Megaunuck? Can I trust you?
Like that's an intense thing when you have something you know in a long time and you feel like this person fucked me over, like and that was that was powerful and fun thing.
Yeah.
Interesting, Speaking of Matt duos, great duos don't normally last this long. Thirty plus years partnerships. You look at Tom Brady and Belichick, Shaq and Kobe, Jordan Pippin, Mad and Stack were still moving though a movie jay Z and Dame Dash what is you and Matt's secret? And then we talked a little bit off camera about this, but what is your guy? The secret?
Just with being able to.
That's very high praise, very like.
Stick sneaking on that list. I'll just take it, you know, you know, But.
The truth is that, like a couple of things, I think when we started out, and I think we just got lucky, like we you know, we were always going up for the same parts, right like, and so it could have been that thing of like in competitive and having a lot of issues that we always were honest about it, like, look, I want to get the part.
Okay, we're both going up for it. I won't to get it, but if I don't, I.
Hope you do, you know exactly, And we were straight about that and kind of and really did kind of have each other's back and feel like at least I got somebody.
Who's in this with me.
Because it's an uphill climb and you're looking at all these people out in front of you, and the idea anyone ever giving you a break is so ridiculous and remote. And then when we actually got successful kind of happened to us more or less the same time. And having somebody around that not only could like tell you the truth and.
Be like what the fuck? You know, yeah, I'm like an idiot, why are you doing this?
Is powerful and maybe even more powerful having somebody who you can kind of turn.
To and close the door and just go like, are you scared?
Because this is scary, this is crazy, you know, and be honest with you know, like I think that a lot of people just don't get that because this is a rare thing to like have somebody that you grow up with I go through that same thing together.
So I think that was helpful.
And then, you know, for a while, we like we started we tried to like, let's define our identity separately, and we don't want to be working together because we're going to get typecast. And then a certain point, I don't know, five or eight years so whatever years ago, we're like fuck that.
Like, listen, here we are.
We're still in the ring, you know, and as long as we're able to do this, let's let's actually spend our time working together and what people we like, instead of trying to sweat the whole like optics and the strategy and this whole thing of like what are people going to think of me? And all that was like fuck it, And that's been probably the most rewarding aspect, Michael.
I think.
I mean, from the outside looking in, it looks like with five to eight years, looks like you guys are doing it your way now instead of trying to fit into a mold and what has been told supposed to be.
And we you know you're gonna hit and missed.
But I feel like if you're comfortable, you know what I mean, and you feel and you're like, okay, yeah, I take that shot again.
You know what I mean, You're in the right spot.
You know, you can't sort of hold yourself I think, to that perfection thing and you make yourself crazy. But the fact is, like I really I really enjoy my life mostly because of like who I get to spend it with.
Most of the time.
You know, you missed one hundred of the shots you don't take.
Speaking of shots, the great greatest shot maker of all time, Michael Jordan, you got a relationship with the Goat.
Can you talk about that how that came about?
Man, I mean talking about one of the great and you're a Boston guy too, I am a boss. Yeah, absolutely, But I mean even Larry Bird was like that dead with Michael Jordan out there, that was God went away real quick.
Even in Boston. Like Larry Bird's the greatest, maybe second, but Jordan's.
You know, I knew him a little bit, just in the sense of you know, when you're you know, you run across somebody at events and of course you know it's like it's like me God, you know, trying to like suck up to the guy and everything, and then you know, just just in so much admiration of him. And when we got hold of this story, you know, knew him well enough basically just calm up and go, hey,
look like I got a hold of this script. I like to make the movie, but I have too much respect for you and what you mean, Like, I'm not gonna do anything that you're not down with. So if you want to give me a couple of hours, sit down and tell me like what's real, what's not, and what you care about, you know, And he was like, all right, cool, come out to my golf course, so blew out there sick, you know what I mean.
Damn, it's good to be Michael Jordan. It turns out, Oh it's great.
Yeah, nobody's there of him and his boys. It's just like that thing, you know. And I went waited for my.
Man to finish, you know what I mean.
They're like, Michael, be like soon, and I was like, I'm not going. And when he got done, he was like, so what is this you know? And I said, look, it's the story of your Nike deal basically, and you know what happened around then, and here's I had sent him a script and I kind of talked him through it a little bit.
And it's interesting, of all the people I talked to for.
That movie talking about humility, like, he was the only one who was like, look, I can talk about what I was I can't do Mike's voice is so deep, I can't do it. But it was like it's gives a little extra intimidation, you like, hey, look what's up.
Okay?
He was like, I can only tell you what I was there for and what I know to be true. I'm not going to talk about what happened when I wasn't in the room, which everybody else was like, this is what.
Happened, this is what happened.
He was only one that was like, I know what I know, and I don't know what I wasn't there for. Here's what matters to me. And he talked about his folks, and he talked about you know, Chris Tucker's character obviously, and he talked about like what was critical in terms of like, and I don't want to give away anything because it was the private conversation, right, but I was like, okay, cool, are you like so these this is the ship that I'm not you know, I'm gonna take that as gospel
and then go do it. I was like, but Mike, I don't want to. I'm not gonna put you in the movie because you're such a like an icon. As soon as I show somebody and try to be like that's Michael Jordan, You're just gonna be like, no it isn't you know. It just can't show a sioutte You're like, no, it's not him. And so he was like, I don't know if you liked that or not, you know what I mean. But he was like, all right, okay, cool, Yeah, no, Biolta Davis gotta play my mom.
I was like, oh, okay, cool, I guess we better write her a good part.
What was the process of trying to get her, because I'm sure it wasn't very easy.
No.
I mean, if iol is somebody that I really look up, I think she's like the very best, you know, and that that absolute top of the best.
Actors in the world. And she knew I.
Felt that way because I had a little part with her in Suicide Squad and I was like, hey, you know, I think you're a genius and I'd love to do.
Something with you. And she was kind of like, yeah, you.
Know, and I'll come back to and and so you know, I was just like I knew that I could use the fact that Michael wanted her.
It was going to be in a hell of a lot more than that I wanted her.
And I was like, hey, ll look, we wrote this, you know, for you and everything, and uh, and Mike did say that the only way we can do it is if you play.
And so she was. She came and did and did it. She was amazing.
And her husband, Julius Uh was great to He.
Played Mike's dad. They play husband and wife.
And he was like because he because I asked Michael, like, what's the like, I'm trying to find an actor play your father, like, and I know, you know, his father passed away and a lot has been said about how close they weren't all that stuff, and I was like, how do.
I who do I look for?
And he was like, my dad had the best personality of anybody in the world. And like when he told me that, I remember being like, he moved me, you know, and so and then when she was I was like, this is just a dude who's so proud of his son. And that's what I loved about, like what he did with that because she was a little more cynical, she kind of knew and saw maybe kind of through.
Some of the bullshit, and I love the idea.
But he was just so fucking proud of his son and just love everybody dracking his son.
And making videos and shit and just happy. And it was beautiful and cutting that against.
Like the the clips of like, you know, his father's you know, being killed.
Ultimately, I made it really really powerful, like.
You watched this guy who's you're not gonna live through the story to see his Son become this you know who he became. And but but those two were really the anchor in the heart of the movie, and that that was definitely what Mike he He was not like sweating the corporate details of the fucking and like, you.
Know, he didn't. He was like look and he said what he said. But he what mattered to him was like the.
Certain key people you know, and and that we got you know, Marlon and Chris to play them was cool.
And Chris, of course like knows.
Everybody, you know what I mean, Chris guys who was like, you can be you know, you can't bring up a name.
He's cool. Jesus.
Now he's friends with the two major mics excuse me, Jordan and Magic and Michael Michael Jackson Jackson, Michael Jordan.
And he's like, yeah, I'm at Ali, you know, like Mama Ali, Like who the fuck? Don't you know he's amazing. He's because you just like him and cool and oh yeah, I'm cool.
Mandela, I was like, what, it's the craziest thing in the world.
But he's Christal, brilliant movie and I love him.
How was it playing Phil?
You know, it was a little bit like did you talk to him. I didn't want to talk to him first.
I didn't want to get him to do anything with Nike because you know, I was aware that like people are gonna be like, oh, this is like a Nike propagame or whatever, and.
I didn't want to. We didn't get any shoes or gear from them.
We didn't get shipped from you know, or we got like the some of the stuff off eBay that was like the old waffle the shoe and stuff.
And so they hadn't seen the movie at all and really know about it and kind of.
Heard about it after we were done, and then they asked to screen it.
And that's when I was like, oh shit.
I was having a lot of fun, you know, playing Phil and kind of fucking with him, and so we went up and they were like, yeah, come up and show.
Fill the movie.
It's like okay, And all of a sudden, I was like, oh man, did I go too far with fucking round?
Like they can sue us and shit.
And they asked us to come up there, and we showed the movie in Portland, but not at Nike. I think they like rented up this whole movie theater down the street and we showed it, and Phil showed up and his kids, his wife and then like the general counsel for Nike, and so I introduced it and I remember being like, look, this is about the spirit of the company.
And Phil, remember.
Everybody likes to fuck with the boss, so you gotta have a sense of humor about that. And to his credit, he really did, you know. He was like, yeah, you know, you could take exception with.
This moment and that moment. Everybody has their thing. But it was actually really moving.
When the movie was over, I walked in there and I saw like I was like, I shouldn't have done that thing where I stole the candy.
At the end the movie.
I was like, what am I fuck? An idiot? I don't even think about this. I walked out there and everyone was.
Quiet and and nobody would say anything until Phil said something, and so it was kind of waiting. I said, so, all right, you know, what'd you think? And Phil was like, well, I have some notes. I was like, gosh shit, all right, all right, well it's locked, but you know we can if you have some caveats, I can talk about them in the press or whatever.
And and he said, first thing he said to me.
He was like, we were friends, and I thought for a minute it looked like the d was about to cry.
He's like he because the truth is like that group kind of scattered after that, and.
Because of the success of the Jordan thing, Son Hen went to Adidas and and and Bateman's character also left, and you know, success brings success, but also sometimes people arguing about whose credit and he gets credit everything, And we didn't include that any of this stuff at the end of the movie, but I got the sense, and he didn't say that that there was like, yeah, there have been acrimony, there had been competition, and when he saw it because what we did go to great lengths
to copy exactly with like the office and the look and all that stuff, and he was like, you know, Phels, he's older now, and he was like and he seemed like he was almost about to cry.
He was like, we were friends.
We were just friends trying to do something like he got lost in the nostalgia of like ye, he took him there, took him there, and uh, you know, and then all everybody else was like, oh, yeah, great movie.
So he had to break the ice. Yeah he did.
Interesting, if you were doing a bio pick up Michael Jordan's you think anybody clo would you think we play?
Is there anybody that you can come to mind?
It's so difficult, man, because you know, part of it is, I mean there's great actors like look, you know, like I mean it's funny, but like I think Michael B. Jordan's one of the one of the great actors. I love him. I think he's just like this like of this new generation. Like I just think he's spectacular. I think he's amazing in centners. A guy is just unbelievable.
You know, he's been a friend of mine for a while, and so you know, he's a he's a first name that comes to mind just because he's actually too yoked, right, he has that like magnetism and charisma.
You know. And I didn't you know, I didn't know.
I wasn't around Jordans, So I don't know how much of it was, how much of the intimidation level or the toughness or whatever, like, because when I was a fan watching them, so I just saw what the other fans saw. And back in those days, you know, there was more of a filter that was getting put on.
You guys, know, a lot better.
Than me, obviously, but that's the sense I get. So Jordan remains kind.
Of a mysterious figure to me too. Probably he seems to not be interested chasing ship.
If it was one sports movie you could make, what would it be? You know?
That's that's a tough one. I mean, I feel like there's some I read a script.
About the four Red Sox that was pretty good.
I feel like that story has been told a bunch, but for me growing up in Boston, when we yeah, it gets lost in New York over and over again, you know, and three was that's.
Right, Yankees, that's true and right now nobody could talk to you.
That's that's probably the most like moving story to me, because you know, that was like still when it just felt like we could never ever win.
This team was never gonna win anything.
You know, it didn't matter like you know, seventy six it did, you know, eighty six they had lost and lost, and and then in three was such a such a humiliation and then to win that, you know, and how many years the curse. I mean, that's probably the greatest sports story. But you know, I don't know, sometimes you feel like you touch with something like that.
And fuck with it.
Like, boy, there's there's a you know, you have to like capture it, you know, and that's daunting goodwill hunting.
You became you and Matt became the youngest to get an oscar to age twenty five. You guys wrote that two kids from Boston take us back to that time and what that meant.
You know, It's like.
I hadn't, you know, like no idea that it was so close to a time where we were just trying to get a movie made to be in it so that we could skip like just you know, getting.
Blocked by the casting director.
And we thought, okay, if we can get a real like a VHS list back, you know, a VHS tape that has some performances on it that we're proud of, like maybe we can jumpstart our acting careers. And you know, the year before those Oscars, I was like in you know, in Boston, in an apartment, you know, in a three bedroom, watching the Oscars on TV, and you know, like I always had.
And to to go and be there. The next year was really like you know, it's this sounds funny.
This sounds like it's like you know, you're getting like you're driving on the road and all of a sudden the car hit some ice or whatever start spinning.
You know. It was sort of like that, like you're moving in slow motion and.
Think, oh my god, am I gonna get in a You know, it was like that. It didn't really feel real, and it was so unexpected and and it was so kind of overnight in a way.
Those Oscars were because of because of Titanic.
It was like this huge hit movie and that was the Titanic year, and they won all these Oscars. You know, we were drafted that and so a lot of people watched that show too. We're more famous for having been the kids no one heard of than won the Oscar. Then people had seen the movie, and you know, it was definitely one of those kind of launching you into a whole other space that you weren't familiar with.
It took a long time to get acclimated to that, but you know, obviously it was. It was great. It was we were just too young to totally appreciate.
You know, is this urban legend to see what studios actually read the script? Did you put a sex scene between Will and Chucky and only one actually caught it?
Yeah, we did it actually a scene where he where the say this now where the therapist gave Will a blowjob in the put it like one sad like and then he starts blowing him and we thought like listen and yeah, only one one or two actually get back the note. It was like, and maybe maybe cut that part because we were frustrated after a while of like, you know, you you do stuff and then you get these notes where it was like, do you give you notes to do something that was kind of already in the script?
Yeah, it was like, yeah it was.
I realized later on that that's actually kind of a common thing. It's sort of like you you kind of want more of something after you've read it, and so you'll ask, but like in a note like I've done it myself and realized, oh, I kind of have to check myself now, like no, I see that was actually in there and I'm just repeating it back to you. At the time, we didn't, you know, we didn't get that. Yeah, I'm also really young and stupid. I thought were fucking punks and like did shit like that?
Rest in peace. Rob Reiner and Robin Williams as instrumental Yeah.
Rob, Rob Reiner was here a couple of months ago. Right in this room, this is our writer's room, and we have folks come by who have like one of the things we do with the with the writers is like we have like you know, asked like some of these really experienced, kind of legendary folks come in and kind of talk about their life and career and stuff.
And Rob did that, and you know, he was an incredibly graceful, sweet guy, and he was His company was the ones that initially not only bought the script for Good One Hunting, but that also we had a whole like kind of Beverly Hills cop like Banana and the tailpipe, the secret agents that were like following Will around in the first draft.
And he was the voice there.
Along with the women their named does Glotzer mothers who said, like, just cut that ship out.
You don't need all that stuff in there. You're trying to make it.
Like a fun commercial movie, you know, but you don't. You don't need to try to be a bever Hills cop, you know, be your your movie.
And we we were what's this guy talking about?
And then we did it, and so we were very grateful to him, and yeah, it's a sweetheart Robin.
Of course, it was like one of the greats. Well, it's just sad.
How have you refrained from pimp slapping paparazzi members?
Lucky? You know, like you, I have lost my temper a few times. Yeah, it's hard.
I mean you it's it's and again I know everyone's like, oh, fuck you, you can play.
It's not a complaint. I understand.
Yes, I'm aware that there's a lot of that. This comes with it, and YadA YadA. I'm past that. But the truth is, like with me, the times that have been very difficult. I got I was like, okay, you want to take a picture of me, Like one thing, if I'm coming out of a a vent or a club or what I find. But like when I've got like my kids, especially when they were younger, I'm trying to go get you know, and there's four or five guys to try and take your picture, and people are like,
why do you always look so mad? I'm like, because every time somebody takes a picture of me, it's around me and I got my kids with me, and I'm like, hey man, you want to fuck off.
I'm with my kids right now. I don't need you yelling at me and like, have a little decency.
You can fuck with me and come find me and say shit like driving down the street.
Whatever. Fine, if that's how you want to make a living.
But when I'm like, these kids were you know, it's about ten and and shit, come on, you know, And I always felt like that was a little bit beyond the fucking pale. And you know they don't ever show that like side. So yeah, it takes.
It does take discipline, and I haven't I haven't had enough. I mean I've gotten mad, you know.
And so people are like, oh, you always look angry or unhappy once you smile, I'm like, wow, I'm mostly pretty happy guy. The only time someone's taking your picture, when someone's fucking with your children, you're likely to have an unfriendly face on.
You know, we're good at flipping it on those people and roasting their real entire lives. So if you ever need any help or I want to learn how to do this, we're great.
Are you good?
You have so many people that coming o me to just dispute hate, and we and we don't. We don't condone it. We just tell them about their real life and it hurts to the soul to the core when they have to get off the phone and go look at the mirror and realize, damn yeah, bro, that's in real life.
And most of the time though, I just wanted your attention. That's what you ain't got to say nothing.
The worst for me is they're like, come fuck with you and your kids and then go there and thanks thanks man, thank you.
That's the thing where I want.
To what do you say to the people that say Hollywood is dead it's too expensive to make movies out here.
I mean, sadly, there's some truth to that.
Like going back to what kind of talked about initially with like trying to find ways where you know, because like where I started in this business was like a free before Good Hunting was you know, in a bunch of very low budget like two and five thousand dollars movie or you know, a million dollar movie, which to
me that seemed like a lot of money. You got to go get a million dollars from somebody, And I thought that, like, you know, it shouldn't be that the barrier to entry is so high that you know, I think there should be, and there are, but it needs to improve, like kind of tears where you can come in and do something that's you know, not trying.
To be a very big commercial movie.
You're trying to take some risks, trying to do some interesting stuff that still can use professional people. I would love for the for for that to be possible, but you know, and part of it's you got people that want to work and you know, and that are are really willing, especially like here in town. But then you
know it can cost more in California. The big thing is that other states or even other countries give these tax breaks, so then it's like you can't compete with them, you know, so all of a sudden and yeah, and then they'll be okay, New Mexico, mass Veus, Louisiana, Georgia. But then they also disappear as kind of whack a mole and everybody's or London, like the UK gives up. That's why all the superhero movies are all made in London.
And you know that's I'm sure it's a lot of money in the rebates that they're given away, and I can't speak to whether or not it's economically viable. I assume they're doing it for a reason, but it's so much money that.
You just can't compete with it.
It's one thing like to say, you know, if you're talking about five percent of the budget, it's thirty forty percent of the budget.
You know, you have no real no choice.
And as a consequence, if something's more expensive, people get risk averse. And when the risk averse that they'll tend to just do the same shit like and now, so you get the safe kind of homogenized stuff. And so it's a vicious psycho mess.
So it's just an educated guess from your experience. If you're shooting a movie the minimum not I ain't saying like the highest growth, but to do a movie that you definitely want to hit the theater that you definitely want to be seen, or will be the budget for that like just a number.
Well, if you're gonna make a movie, forget even about like some you know, you forget about you know, Dwayne Johnson or some huge star like salary. Just to shoot a movie that's you know, you know where there's a certain amount of like you know, you got your forty fifty days of shooting and certain production and it really varies.
But like people will tell you now, like it's very very difficult to make a movie for less than twenty five million dollars, right, yeah, and twenty five and it can go up very quickly as soon as you're you know, you've got a big stunt unit or big action stuff or visual effects. And here's the thing with theatrical, which is why it's it's very hard. Like you spend about the same amount that you spend on the movie to
advertise the movie. So if you spend twenty five million to make the movie, you twenty five million to advertise the movie.
So now you got fifty million dollars.
Into the movie, and from the movie theaters you get back roughly fifty percent. So if a movie makes a hundred million dollars, you know, you get back fifty million dollars. So if you get back fifty million dollars, that's you. You twenty five million dollar movie got a gross one hundred million, just in simple math. And there is a tale, and there are secondary revenue streams. But that's one of the things that has made it really hard to get theatrical.
That and the fact that people now go, ah, this movie looks good, but I'll see it when it comes down streaming, you know, And so those two factors are really what's caused, you know why you see mostly the movies that come out in theaters or you know, Avengers and or you know Avatar or whatever it is, you know, and a movie, even a movie with that Ryan Coopler, who's a huge commercial director and Michael Jordan is a huge movie star, that's considered kind of a risk because
it's not like a sequel, right, you know, and even that comes out and blows up and now you know, out of them make Centers two, three, four, five, and six. But to do something original that's really you know, when those guys had to go out and really kind of use all their credibility and cachet to convince people to do that movie.
Well, similar to some of the like you did on Center see kind of like you're like an artist equity type of thing. With how he's structured to feel.
And how Ryan's are really you know, it seems like a very very smart guy and he's been he he did a really smart thing with that deal, which is that he kind of related to this idea of kind of ownership like some of the Heir and the Jordan dew earlier, like you're gonna get the movie and you're gonna release the movie, but like you know, they're gonna be participants in it, and they got what's called a reversion, so that Ryan and I assume you know, the other
principal creators the movie reverts back.
To his ownership.
Because there's a lot of value in a movie, the movies that are really successful, Uh, they have a lot of value in what's called like the tails. Like that's why you know people will still they'll still license the movie for ten twenty million dollars to Netflix or Prime or Max. You know that's been out a long time ago, because people will still watch it if it's like a big,
big hit. So now Ryan will be able to not just you know, get a piece of it now, but in ten years when they're going to license Sinners again, that's I'll go back to him. And he bet on himself, right and really now cruised the value of that. Yeah, very very sharp, very innovative. It was very controversial. So a lot of people were on the studio side were mad at War Brothers because it was like, oh, you're you're giving away this value. But that's an example of
like using that leverage. It's like Okay, you Feilure. This guy is so good and he's got this cast and this script so good.
He's like, this is what I want change change the business.
Essentially a lot of people in Hollywood and really just overall or a little bit afraid of AI.
What are your thought what's your thoughts with AI?
I think there's like two ways to think about it.
Like I can understand why people are afraid just in role of AI, right, Like there's this whole thing of behalf of It's like it's gonna be super intelligent and it's gonna be skying at in a terminator and take over the world like like, which is a little bit like, well, let's then maybe just not put AI in charge of shit to start with, you know what I mean?
I would say that's probably a wise choice.
I think in terms of like what it can do as a tool. I actually think that what I would like to see happen is that it be kind of owned and integrated into what filmmakers are doing. It's never gonna be, and I don't think anyone ever wants to see like this whole till, you know or with think that that's bullshit. Nobody wants to see or cares about something that you know is false. But and like not Rio and not a person like I just don't.
Believe in that.
I don't believe that's gonna work. I don't believe that's a real thing to worry about. I think there are some things about the technology that would make visual effects, uh, you know, less expensive, and like those things I think that we should adopt and not sort of let fear mean that the only people that are using that technology are people who are like, you know, basically like ripping something off or outside Hollywood or you know, because that doesn't make sense to me.
You don't have a blanket fear of it. You feel like there's parts that could be very beneficial.
There's definitely parts that can be very beneficial. Yeah, And the idea of looking at it in terms of just like all good, all bad. That's like when you think about electricity, you know what I mean, Well, when it's in.
A nuclear momb I think it's bad.
When it's on a train, and I think, you know, it's really that broad a category. It's gonna be about like how is it used? And there needs to be rules and there needs to be and they're frantically. There already are a lot of rules that about like using image and likeness, and I think that it's not a thing to be so terrified of, but it is a thing to kind of step up and define. And I think you can present an opportunity, like you have a choice,
you make your movie. You want to let people you know, fool around with your movie and make well, ai you.
Know, shorts of it. Like if that's what.
You're good with, you go ahead and do that, and you see the benefit of that, and that could be one of the ways that you, you know, you profit from that. Talking about sinners, if those guys want to let people make their little sinners I fight the vampires too videos, great like then, but that money should be.
Going to Ryan and Michael and Warner.
Brothers and the people that invested in creating that. That's that as I think the bigger issue is connecting the compensation appropriately to the people that are actually creating the value. Because the reason why people want to do that ship is because they like the original you know, ip that it's associated with that somebody went out and made and built and you know, to me that that makes sense.
But I don't think it's ever even gonna be practical or anybody really gives a shit of Just an all Ai, you know, sort of animated movie.
One of the best high highest movies ever. That's the shooting scenes in that movie. I mean, just unbelievable. Man high five all the way to have a shooting another one.
Keep me in mind. I would love to play one of those.
Like I give you a recognized guy in the mask, and should they be like, well, the one guy that's six, he's gonna blend in.
No, I've got a nun mask on, or no, you.
Have to keep me in the car. So the window.
Joe Mizzoula, coach of the Celtics, says why he watches the town four times a week and he goes to every time he goes.
To Fenway Park.
He's looking for exte I love that.
I don't know, this guy's like, that's like your fantasy, you know what I mean, your hometown tea all of a sudden ting about like you know, I like, I thought somebody was bullshiting me when they first sent me that thing.
I was like, what uh, But I mean, what can I say?
Making that movie?
It was fun.
I mean, that was a movie where I was like, that's where I was like, Okay, I need to be make or break for me. So that was one where I was like, you know, I put everything I had into that and I got I mean, on weekends, I'll get like he's migraine.
I Mean, it was very intense, but you know, there's a lot of.
Freedom to just going like, Okay, I know that everything I have is riding on this, so I'm gonna do what I want to do and what I think is good. And I wasn't too worried about any other outside pressures and I loved it. I had great support and and like there was great performers in the movie, and the crew is fabulous. And that's where I started being like, damn it, this is a really a united process and effort.
It can be it can really get better.
And that's where I really started to realize as a director how much you benefit from you know, get people that are great at what they do and put them around you, and that is good.
Don't need to be the smartest and the guy that you know be able to go yeah, that's a great idea.
Let's do that and show people that that's how you're going to do it, and if you come up and contribute, that's going to be integrated into it. And then people are like, oh shit, maybe I can have that, you know what I mean. It's very kind of locked into that that process there. But I loved making the movie was off.
And I appreciate it.
Yeah, look like I could definitely can you can find something about problems.
Kind of give it away because you got that smile. You're too warm, you know what I mean, Like.
Before we get the quick hit. It's just a couple of questions.
Obviously, January sixteenth, the Rip is out on Netflix. May make sure you check that out. What makes the Rip different from your average action thriller?
What I like about the Rip is a that's just the cast is so strong, you know what I mean, Like Tana and Steven youwn.
We just got like these really really strong performers, and it's got a very tight it really knows what is kind of like an old school you know, you got these cops. They show up, they're trying to you know, they think there's a little bit of money in the house, and there's.
Way more than they thought.
And it's kind of got that very simple proposition that let everybody kind of like approach this task and do it in a smart way.
It's just like what would you do and who can you trust?
And that's really what it what it delivers on and show the director have a very clean idea of that and you let.
The actors do their thing.
There wasn't like rules about you had to be one way or another or oh this character can't do that. So you have this sense of anything can happen and you don't know who to trust, and it makes you want to keep watching.
And I'm really proud of the movie.
Secret to a great action scene, what's the secret?
You've had a lot of those.
Make it real like, it has to feel realistic once it starts feeling like I really saw that on the Boorne.
It was the first time when he was.
Like he's taking a pen and stabbing guy in the neck or something. All of a sudden, it was like, Ooh, that feels like what you would really do if somebody instead of like I'm gonna slide down the banister and shoot all of a sudden, that's a fantasy, instead of like, you'll make it real like ground it with my advice quick hitters.
First thing to come into mind. Let us know, if your.
Hollywood career was a basketball career, what year would you say is your MVP season? And when years were you fighting for minutes?
Fighting for minutes from oh two to oh seven MVP like ninety eight big rookie year, follow up.
Year then scuffled as they say, and then uh yeah, this is where you get This is where this is a more forgiving business because you get to keep rolling as you get older. And for really me, I feel like I've actually feel like I'm my best personally artistically, Like how I feel like now this last ten years, I'm really happy.
You know, most irresponsible purchase from a big check earlier on in your career bentally.
This one.
This dude's read up on me.
Couple Yeah, early on, you know, not really realizing that, like you're not as rich as the paycheck, you know what I.
Mean, half my money where taxes what?
So?
Yeah, I definitely the mornages and the spine spurs.
Is costing back there, boy, you had a couple of.
Them, biggest body transformation you ever had to go through for a role.
Couple one one for the town because the guy was supposed to have been like a pro athlete, and uh, I probably overdid it for a pro hockey player because then I had to meet some of these pro hockey players.
I'm like, you don't even look that rep.
But also they had I couldn't get the hockey body because they have big legs and the big ass because they you know, that shit was never gonna happen. That's my real deficit. I hate squads on ship. I always did, like armed but the town. And then for Batman versus.
Super I got it.
I you know, I felt, okay, I gotta be BigMan.
That was good.
M J. Kobe Broun wrankled.
M J Kobe Lebron, m J Bron Kobe.
Five dinner guests that are alive. You plus five at a dinner table.
Me plus five at the greatest dinner guests.
My gosh, okay, whew.
I wasn't ready for this one, okay, Martin Luther, King, Buddha, Jimmy Hendrix by Marley and and.
Cindy Crawford nineteen eighty six.
I got it. That's gonna that's gonna be a good time. That's gonna be a good time.
I remember nineteen eighty six, I had a poster Cindy Crawford on my wall, and I was like.
This, well, that was the next question with your childhood crush.
Yeah, dingo, definitely Cindy cro.
Hollywood equivalent of a rookie mistake that I made, taking, you know, for like the first time somebody offered me a bunch of money for a movie, I really got into it.
You know, my mother had made whatever thirty thousand dollars a year as a public school teacher, and my dad, you know, sometimes had a job, and so all of a sudden, you know, people are gonna give you three thousand dollars, six thousands.
A million dollars offered six million dollars for Reindeer games. I was like, I don't need to read this fucking script. Truly.
That's the way I thought, was like it would be irresponsible and crazy, and like, who the fuck would I.
Be to turn something down like that?
And by the way, that they had a movie, you had a very good director in Charlie's darons In and everything. But the point being, I really didn't understand the cliche of like you have to you have to do good work and let the believe that the money will follow that as soon as you start getting you know, there's a reason that you pay any more than somebody else. It's because, like, you know, hey, come play with fourteen full scrubs, you know over here, and you know you're
not gonna win anything over there. And that's kind of like it's even more extreme because you're like it or not. People will associate you with the quality of the movies that you do.
If you can see one person on our show, who would it be? But you have to help us get your answer on the show. Tanna, Yeah, that's she's real. She's fucking spectactus.
Yeah, she doesn't know how to bullshit, you know what I mean, tell you the truth. Talking to her is like, yeah, it was a lot of fun. She she was just she has not political and she's like Dan Taylor's one of those people that like leaves every room where everybody in the room is much more impressed with her than she is.
I love that you go to the same brunch spot in Atlanta, So she's super cool.
Ben, Thank you for your time. Make sure you check out The Rip January sixteenth on Netflix.
Thank you. I appreciate it, all right, appreciate
Thought