ATS REPLAY: Isiah Thomas | ALL THE SMOKE

Hmmm, and welcome back to another edition all the smoke Jack. We got a good one today, bro Legendary, got a good one today. Someone I've been harassing trying to tell you, but on his ass two years Tanner, we need you, we need you, and we keep passing each other. But

So I'm on the board of UWM, which is Matt Ishbee's stodent company. And you know it's crazy. You have the two biggest mortgage companies in the US in Detroit, UWM and Rocket Mortgage. So I'm on the board. He and I have been friends for a long time. Advise him on a couple of things. He advised me on a couple of things business wise, and we have been you know, really looking for a team since twenty twenty one. Matt wanted to get into the business. His brother wants

Obviously, basketball is what you're known for, but now you're known for just your entrepreneurialism is that a word, or entrepreneurial ship. I mean doing very well making mogul, Yeah, cannabis, space, champagne space, real estate, private equity. Business of basketball wasn't very big when you played, because it wasn't very big when we played, you know what I mean. Now it's the norm. But you've been able to really capitalize off

So fortunately enough for me, you know, basketball in sport has given me the opportunity to really, you know, expand globally. And name of my firm is Isaiah International, and we do a lot of business outside of the United States. So when you talk about the champagne space, we got two hundred acres over in the Old Region of Champagne, which is the oldest region of Champagne, with the largest black owned champagne company in the US, largest first press

It's not theirs.

Uh So what we wanted to do is bring you the best of the best. And my ECON teacher told me a long time ago that you know, if you if you got the highest quality and you can give it to the customer and the consumer at the lowest price, and then long term you're going to win the game. So it's not the best marketed, it's the you know, the most, it's the best, highest quality. And we're out here now getting ready on board and a couple of

Now we got some black black owns, so it's good to get that in there.

They might have the all time most successful backcourt ever.

Michael Wave, super successful, Z and Joe d them three.

Like if you wanted to model use up out of some basketball players that took after advantage of their career and after basketball, y'all might have the top basketball, I mean backcourt in history.

As far as business wise.

Thank you.

Now, seriously, if you think about it, ain't lying if you think about it.

Yeah, I hadn't thought about it that way, but that's why we own this show. That's my y'all. That's my y'all.

Another you think, well, thank you for that.

Yeah, And you know, and you know we if you notice when we was describing all Salves when we were playing, the media always gave us the physically tough label, but we always described ourselves as mentally tough. And that's the most important time. Yeah, it's like, you know, you you win with smart people. You know, you win with people

Can you talk a little bit about the cannabis space. That's something that Jack and I are both in and and and obviously you know, this push was supposed to be the push for the minority population in that space, and we're still very small percentage of the population that's making that up. But can you talk to us what you guys are doing in the cannabis space.

So I'm chairman CEO of a publicly traded company called One World Products where we cultivate and grow in Colombia. Now again, my firm is Isaiah International, and we do a lot of business, most of our businesses outside of the United States because outside of the United States, I classify as an American. Inside the United States, I classify

So one world products.

Why do we choose to cultivate and grow in Colombia the same reason we France for Champagne, the soil, the sun and also the farmers and the workers that you work with in terms of indigenous farmers and growers Columbia. Right now we've partnered with the Afro Columbia community. There been granted one point two million acres of land to

That's dope. Let's go back, man.

I'm a West Side of No, you're a west side absolutely. Talk about a young z growing up on the West Side of Chicago.

It was it was. It was hard and as a matter of fact, you were you were just there. I think about a year ago he was running around in oh Block. Yeah, I got the calls, right, I was like, nah, I call, I said, I'll let him know that I was out there. No. But growing up on the West side of Chicago, and we we emphasized west side. And here's why because, uh my mom worked for Fred Hampton and I was one of the kids that got the free breakfast, you know, learned martial arts and all that.

They was supposed to be community.

Yeah, and it was protecting the neighborhood, and it was protecting neighborhood from the police, right, because there's a lot of police brutality and we were fighting not to be colorized. We were fighting not to be put in apartheid colorized system. And when you go back and you look and you know those signs that they was running in Memphis said, I am a man. You know, we were fighting not to be dehumanized and taken out of all humanity. Right.

We wanted to be and remain human.

But now we've accepted and we've adopted this colorized system. Uh But but those were the teachings that were taught on the West Side of Chicago. So that's where I come from, That's what's ingrained in me, that's what I carry, that's what I still fight for today. And you know, there's no there's no pure anything. We're all living on a hyphen right you you you know you Italian American. And I'm gonna say this, right, when we were growing up, we grew up with Italians.

We grew up with Greeks, we grew up with Polish, we grew up with.

Irish, right, and they were proud to call themselves Greek, Italian, Irish. Right When did everybody become white?

Right?

Right?

You know, I mean they don't say Greek.

Anymore, they don't say I'm Italian anymore, they don't say you know Jeworge that everybody see the white, black, green, purple, blue or orange people about that.

My mom I used to, you know, what are you? I'm black and white. My Mom's like, no, you're Italian. You're Italian. You're not white, You're Italian, right, right?

Yeah? And and and by the way, the Italians, you know, come from the Moors, right, you know, so you know, when you when you, all of us are human beings, right, and and if we can get back to being human beings and get away from this colorized apartheid system that we're operating in, then we got a chance to make it, you know. And that's what the fight has always been about in this country, right, Those who are who have been classified as black have always been trying to get

One quick question, you said, you and your mom used to take you out to the marches and stuff like that. I got a chance to experience that with George Floyd. Did any of that change you experienced that, like, did that have like any type of hold on you to be able to experience that as a youngster, Cause I experienced as a grown man and it definitely changed me.

Yeah. And so two things that I noticed dramatically. So when we were marching, you know, in the sixties, my first ten years of life, right, Martin Luther King's assassinated, Fred Hampton's assassinated, the Kennedys are assassinated, and we're talking sixty three sixty five. Then the Cicero Riots, Chicago riots sixty six sixty seven, So this is my first ten years of lights on the West Side. So I like seven riots, you know, all in all community, right, and

Right.

But the thing that.

Was so different about George Floyd and us marching for voting rights, I can't believe I'm saying this. In this country, we still marching and trying to get voting rights. Think about what I'm saying, right, classified as white in this country, they ain't never had to march for votevoting rights right, equal rights. Uh, keyword civil rights. I just need you to be civil to me. So and these are these are these are these are labels right, these are labels

Right.

And that was different. You know, where the world stood up. And not only did the world stand up, but you had black folk, white folk, green folk.

And everybody, I mean everybody.

And in the sustained movement of the young folk. The young folk in this country was like, Hey, I don't know what y'all talking about, but I like snoop, you know what I mean, Like, you know, it's like you know this, my brother is and so the young folk, what they've done in this country, and I hope they keep it up, is putting the pressure on to to to let us become a part of the United States, American fact brick and and we don't need no.

No, no.

You know we classified as a minority when you look these terms up in the dictionary, right, hey, these words have meaning, right, So hey, I'm not a minority. I'm a grown man, right right, take care of myself, pay my own bills. You know, I'm not a handicap individual, and don't classify my business as handicap, you know, treat me, you know, level the playing field. We come from, sport and all we asked for is hey, man, just the

So sorry, I went off on that.

Now, that's why I asked. That's why you had me. I was about to let them down.

Yeah, I saw them tears come. But but you're saying, man, but that's some deep stuff. Man, y'all did it? I mean y'all and y'all doing it, and we need y'all to keep doing it, appreciate it.

You know.

Let's let's stay on the west side. Let's talk about Lord Henry. How how big was he in your life? And how nice was he?

Man? So my older brother, Lord Henry, right, and so I think he may steal hold of the Catholic school scoring record went to Saint Phillip's. And you know when we talk about George Gervin, right, I didn't know George Gervin back then. And back then the NBA won on TV like the NBA's on TV now. So you only admired your your the people in your neighborhood or your older brothers.

Yeah, the locals.

And every now and then you may you may hear about doctor J. And then your imagination you this is doctor J. Move but you ain't never really seen him, right, But my brother Lord Henry was so smooth man. And the name alone you had to be called Lord h. You know, my mom and my dad they had high hopes and of course of the place that we was living in. That's that's that's how it was. But but now and and and he got turned out though, you know, he got turned out on heroin.

Ended up dying, uh, you know, several years ago.

But but man, you're talking about a pretty jump shot, you know, between the legs, dribbles behind the back, and the way I was taught to play the game and the way he taught me to play the game.

It was all spiritual.

You know.

It was like and I can't I can't remember him and my older my my second oldest brother, third oldest brother, Larry.

You know, it's like.

Junior, you know, you you just can't play the game.

You gotta feel it.

I mean, you gotta when you shake, you you gotta feel it. Man, you just can't you just dribbling. The fun is that you just dripping. You gotta feel it, man. And so you that's how you know you tried to play. You tried to put that spirituality into the game where you tried to make that person who's watching.

You play feel what you feel. Right.

And so my brother Lord Henry, you know, like I said, he died of heroin.

But the one thing, you know, he kicked right.

And I remember when he kicked, you know, and he said, I'm gonna go back to school, and and while he kicked, he was like, damn, you know it was. It was. It was easier when I was on drugs, you know, because now now you got to get back into the system. You've been out of the system for a long time. But he went back, graduated from college, and I'll never forget.

Yeah, that online thing.

So so I rented a bus and I had the bus, you know, show up on Fifth Avenue and Jackson at four in the morning, Three in the morning. Want everybody to be there, three in the morning. Bus gonna leave at four, going down to Detroit so we can watch Lord Henry graduate at Ford Field. And I never forget bus driver calling me up like, hey, man, you you sure I got the right address? You shure I'm in the right Okay. I'm like, yeah, man, you're in the

Man, like.

My brother walking across the stage had his captain gown on. He didn't know what he was gonna be there, and and all his friends started hollering Lord hen right, Lord Henry, and man, he broke down on the stage and just started crying, like crying like a little baby. Man. That was That was one of the most beautiful days that

I just lost my little brother. I lost my older brother when I was young. So I know the feeling, yeah, I know the feeling. Yeah, Chicago Pipeline, all the especially now all the young players that's coming out of Chicago.

Man, what's in the water though?

You got d Wade, Anthony Davis, Kevin garn There, Derek Rose, Tim Hardaway and too Walker yourself will buying them. Patrick Beverley, you got so many, so many hoopers come from there. All dogs, yeah, all dogs talking about what's in the water.

Well it's in Detroit water now too, so I claim Chicago. Yeah yeah. And and but you know, for us, right is so we always say the south Side, like them south Side guys, you name, they all got haircuts, you know, they pretty, you know what I mean? And they and

You know Fields, Yeah, Ronnie Fields, that's the name my classmate.

If he wouldn't have gotten an accident, bro.

Yeah, people don't remember, like so KG. Right, people talk about Kevin Garnett, But in Chicago they said Kevin Garnett play with I say that all the time.

It was like he played with Ronny Fields man.

And and you're talking about somebody jumping a right. So when KG first got to Chicago, right, you know, KG liked to talk, and you know he really animated, right, and he wanted to play everywhere, like everywhere, and and so he going up in the gym and and and so everybody like, man, who is this dude? Man?

He kind of talk a lot.

You know, it's like nah, man, he good man, he good like Liam. And so KG like went all over Chicago play. But as you say, he's the guy that played with Ronnie Felds. Truth. And it's like Dwayne Wade in Chicago, right, Dwayne Wade get mad love, but he don't get them the the Ronnie Fields kind of love. Because in Chicago, it's what you did in high school. Yeah, if you if you was the man in high school, you're the man for life in Chicago.

Chicago.

Yeah, we don't have a more decorated athlete that come out of Chicago than Dwayne Wade. Dwayne Wade is like the gold standard, you know, Olympics, gold medal, championships, everything. No, no one has got more you know, decorations than Dwayne Wade.

But in Chicago, oh.

Man Field man, you know what I mean, That's how I go. You know, it's like what you did you know in high school is what matters. That's crazy.

Uh, you end up shooting Indiana for college? Who else was on your list?

Now?

I didn't choose Indiana, Mom, Indiana, We'll.

Talk to us about where your who was recruiting you and where you wanted to go.

So of course I wanted to stay at home and go to Paul uh And then my second choice was Iowa with Loudosen. And you know, so coach Rosboro was the assistant coach at at Iowa and he actually coached my brother Lord Henry and Gregory at Our Lady of Sorrows. So if you go back and you look at Iowa, Loudosen always has Chicago guards. You know from Ronnie Lester,

I don't know if I.

Would be alive to day though, if I would have stayed home in Chicago. And and y'all can understand this, and I've never really said this, but growing up in the neighborhood that I grew up in and growing up the way we grew up, my mom made the wise decision and said, you know, you're going to go to Indianah. Had I stayed in Chicago, I don't know, if you know, running and running around doing the things that we were doing.

Yeah, so, but she chose Indiana for me.

You know.

Legend has it that when Bob Knight showed up, the whole neighborhood showed up.

The whole neighborhood showed up, and and then there was a fight almost that broke out too. So my so, my so, my two older brothers, you know, all my brothers were there, and my second oldest brother, Gregory. I'm sure you heard about my second oldest brother, Gregory. Uh

I mean he was you know, that's just.

How they was, right. And so my brother was like, hey, man, I you know, I'm like that, you know that, what you mean, they gonna take care we take care of junior, you know. And and so the conversation quickly got heated, and you know, I you know, the voices raised and everything else. And so everybody's like, no, no, y'all, calm down now. After that, and so coach Knight stood up. You know, my brother's like, well, we can take this outside.

So anyway, man, I'm glad they didn't go outside.

He was gonna get jumped. Oh, he wouldn't have made it back in. Thought. But what he thought it was just gonna be a one on one thing. Now, he wouldn't have made it back in as a matter of fact. As a matter of fact, he would have got stuck up first.

He stuck on first.

Yeah, but he wouldn't have made it back in, you know, for sure.

I remember I remember Bobbie Knight called me my senior year. He called he called my houseman. Mama aster the phone. She was talking to him. She's like, hold, I'm gonna put you on speaker, Paul. This was his exact words. Do you want to come to Indiana?

Not? Right? Straight up? Bro, I'm like huh. I'm like, Mama, like I don't know what, excuse me?

Do you want to come to Indiana? Not?

And she's like, well, we'll have to give you a call back. And she wouldn't expecting to be so blunt. And that's all he said, Bro.

Yeah, never heard from again.

Trip.

Do you want to come to Indiana?

Not?

Yeah, that's it.

No, he was straight game with it.

He walked up in the house and said, look, I'm off your son three things, Miss tim Now it's me sitting here right, he said, Miss Thomas, I'm asking I'm off of your son three things. He's gonna be a gentleman, graduate from college, and I'm gonna teach him how everything I know about basketball. And I'm like, well that that ain't enough where the money at, you know what I mean. He's like, and but you know that's how I recruited.

And he didn't cheat, and he didn't cheat and he didn't.

Cheat, and that was unheard of during that period of time because going to college, he was going to take basket weaving. You know, you one didn't have to go to class. Somebody's gonna be doing your homework. Everybody who graduated from Indiana, you went to school, you did your homework, and you got a real grade. He prepared you. Yeah yeah. How long did it take for you to buy in?

Though?

I mean he compromised, he I had, you.

Know, it's like, hey man, this how is gonna be?

Like?

You know, one, no place to go?

You know, I got kicked off the team a couple of times, and and I was like, I'm leaving, I'm going home. But then I remember one no lights at home, were no food at home or no gas at home. So and you wasn't getting no sympathy from your mom. Your mom was like, you know, you got to stay there. So but uh. The thing that I the thing that I loved about Coach Night now that I'm older, is that he had the courage to coach me. He had

Man.

If you don't go to class, you can't come to practice. You can't lay in your bed all day and think you're gonna come to practice and didn't go to class.

That ain't happening. Now.

Of course, that's what I wanted to do. That's what we all wanted to do. So and then in terms of freedom, right, like we had no plays at Indiana, We didn't have out of bounds play, we weren't coming down calling, played twenty two up, thirty two out. You know, it was like now you got to get to know your teammate. And once you get to know your teammate, then you'll know if he's going left or right. But we played this game they call passing game, similar to

You know.

So that was the way he made you think and play.

Uh so you think the game. Yeah, And he always says a thinking man's game, mental is the physical as forced to one. And you know, if you can't think, then you you you got no shot. Again, is playing against.

Me mental is to physical as far as to one.

Yes, Okay, I just wanted to make sure it's a thinking man's game and you you have to think your way through the game.

And you're gonna have him thinking about that analogy the whole Yeah, yeah, show yeah. Two year pit Stock, you win a champion national championship in eighty one, dropped twenty three versus Sam Perkins and James Worthy over North Carolina. What was your favorite on the court moments in college? Was it that championship?

Two favorites? The first favorite was February fourteenth, in Iowa, Mike Whitson's return because my freshman year he had back surgery.

We were ranked number one.

Whitson goes down, Whitman goes down, Boushie goes down, and we like, you know, we faltering right. Woodson comes back and that's his first game and it's in Iowa City, and this my freshman year and my whole my whole time now, you know, playing for coach night. I'm waiting for this genius moment, right, I'm waiting for him to grab the clipboard, you know, and draw up some stuff. And but I ain't seen no clipboard and like, you know, I ain't seen the clipboard like since I got there. Right,

He knocks down the shot in the in.

The first half, they gave us crazy momentum going in because I think we either went up one or was down one. We come back out the third to start the second half, and then I take over. So you know that, But I thought that shot was one of the biggest moments in the game.

Yeah, nineteen eighty one draft, you go number two overall to the Pistons, probably the worst team in the league before you got there.

Well, you knew what she was walking into though, right, No I didn't.

You didn't, he said, No, I didn't.

I did. Now, you know, when you hear the worst team, you know you.

You don't you have no idea what the worst team?

That's like?

You know what that really mean? Right you?

So, so there was no culture, there was no Now, I come from every place I've been, I've won, right, and and so there's rules, there's there's there's discipline, there's a way of acting, there's a way of being, there's a way of doing things, and and so when I get to Detroit, those it was like what are we doing? Like, how are we going to win? That's all I'm trying to figure out is how are we going to win?

So so it's like, okay, how.

Are you going to win in this league? You you got to learn, You got to get educated, right, And and they let me in. And so so I'm there when Magic Johnson dribbled out the shot clock and they calling him Tragic Johnson, right, And I'm in his hotel room, me Mark and this dude laying on the floor balling, I mean just hurt frying, uh you know, just you know that kind of crying, right, And and we stayed up with him until you know, bus was leaving at five five thirty in the morning, and he just laying

So so many free throws?

Like come on, man, you know, work on your jump shot.

You know, we gotta get your j right now, that dude.

Went from being an eighty three eighty four percent jumped to ninety. Wow, jumped to ninety percent from the fire line, then became the MVP of the league.

You know what I mean.

So so watching that and learning that. So when you say, now the Detroit Pistons, so we didn't have no culture, So what did I do? Right, It's like Okay, this is who we are. We need an identity. This is who we're going to become. This is how we're gonna dress. This is how we're gonna talk. This is how we're gonna look right, and and then bringing some stuff from

Right, There's gonna be some rules.

This is how we're gonna follow this, how we're gonna act, This, how we're gonna march, is how we're gonna be. This is who we are in this NBA league and still today, this is who we are.

This is what we do now.

If we didn't establish that that culture, that language, that belief system, those values, you know, we we didn't have the type of talent that La had. We didn't have the type of talent that Boston had, but we had a belief system that was so strong that this is gonna mess you up when I say this. Bill Lambier believed that he can compete every single night against Kareem obture your boss a strong belief. Come on, work with me, work with you think thinks about what I just said. Yeah,

If I do what I'm supposed to do, I can beat you.

M hmm.

Nobody in the world would agree.

With him, and they didn't. They didn't that way. They still don't believe it. I know. I'm just glad the film Don't Lie, Film Don't Lie.

We just had Barkley on and Barkley was talking about around the time you come there, how Bird Magic saved the league.

Do you agree with that?

I think Bird and Magic.

Saved the league, and I think the league took off when the Detroit Pistons showed up on the scene. I think Bird and Magic. You know what the NBA was coming out of in the seventies, and how the United States was, I mean, we have to talk about that now, how the United States was for black men in the seventies, and then Bird and Magic being on the stage in the early eighties coming out of college, and then you know, playing that you know that game again, Magic come to

We we had, you.

Know, people from all different walks of life, and we started putting fifty sixty thousand people in the Silver Dome.

And then we had three rivalries.

I think we're the only team that only had three rivalries, the Lakers, the Celtics, and the Bulls. Right, so every time we played, everywhere we moved, right, it was it was different. And then we didn't understand, well, we didn't know. So we met a gentleman by the name of Mike Ornstein with the La Raiders or the Oakland Raiders at that time what they call cross marketing today, We didn't know there was such a term as cross marketing. But

Or did you have to fight for that?

I never thought of myself as the leader. I never thought of myself as the captain. It's you know, leadership is given. You never walk into a room and be like, I'm the leader.

You know it.

They vote on it. You know who's going to be the captain. Okay, you can be the captain. And I was selected the captain and the leader only because they trust me, right, and and that type of trust is earned, and then you have to honor it too. Like that means, yeah, that means you can't go out when everybody else is going out there, right, you can't. I mean I don't know I meant that much.

Yeah, you can't.

You can't do the things everybody else is doing it because you know that there's a certain amount of trust and respect that goes along with that. So that that first game against Milwaukee, I'm playing against you know, not Quinn Buckner. I'm playing against him. It's my first time playing against him. You know that dude was just in my house. He went undefeated. He went undefeated in high school and undefeated in college. Still the last undefeated team

I'm up in the air like.

This, and he goes, caught you in the air, caught me in the air and set me down and said, look, don't come down here no more. I was like, Okay, my jump shot got real good because when he because when he called me, it wasn't you know, when them guys hit you right, It wasn't like a gentle womb, you know. It was like and they put that force behind him, and yeah, you feel that, right, dude? Set me down, man, And you know, but I had a good game that night, but I was looking forward to

Now that's the game that I really like, because.

Not all my boys, everybody else, I mean everybody there.

You know Red Magic.

That trip from Chicago to Boston. How long is that trip? Bus her car from Chicago to Detroit. Excuse that.

It's four hours and it's three and a half.

Yeah, Jack can get there. Three yeah, yeah, so straight down ninety four. So now you know, we go to Chicago, like I say, Red Magic One. All my brothers nim there, you know, all I mean everybody up in the stands. You know, my my mom and my my aunt. Like back then they didn't have them, the metal detectors. So my mom she believed in the second Amendment. Now she.

Yeah, and my aunt got a switch blade.

She carried a switch blade. And you and and I don't know people remember this, but you know, like she would be sitting there talking, right, and you remember trick. They could do tricks with their switch plade, you know, and she likes, you know, be talking to you and like troiling it all around and nice with it and close it up on you when they finished.

And so they would bring food to the game.

So they bringing their chicken and everything, and you know, and so and I'll never forget so we Ricky Sobers was the guard then one number fourteen Tcky Sobers play at UNLV right and and so we you know, I'm going through my stuff. I went between my legs and that dude like hit me so hard, damn right, you know, I folded up right because back then, you know, they didn't like when you try to show them off. Like now you can just go through your legs and everything

The your Jordan INSS League at the time. The East has loaded yourself, m J Bird, Dominique, Moses Malone, Charles Barkley, doctor J. What was the Eastern Conference back in the middle of the eighties, Like every night.

You see, I just took a simple war. It's all them names you just named off. I'm like Chevy, I'm sweating now. Like man, Philadelphia was so good back then, Mo Cheeks, Andrew Tony, doctor J, Moses Malone, Bobby Jones. They don't get enough credit for what they was doing

The left box. That dude floated all the way to the right.

Box and then laid it up on the other side. And that's where to god, Joe and I on the phone and for about five minutes, man, it was just dead silence, silent. Did we just see Yeah? And then all I'm saying it was like practice tomorrow we got to deal with I mean.

That dude jumped from the left box.

And was up in the air and went all the way over to the right box and laid it up. It was like.

We had Magic on the show at the end of December and your name came up, and Magic was talking about what you and him went through and how you guys were able to sit down and patch.

It up, which is beautiful, by the way, Thank you.

Everyone was big fans of that. But he also said he would like to see you and Mike patch it up. You called me after that and we had a conversation on the phone about what was going to care to share any of that?

Man, You know, I just want some people to be honest.

I got I got no problem sitting down talking with anybody right. And as you can see, you know I I'm.

Your open book.

You know I live with love.

Peace, truth, you know, honesty, courage, I'm you know, I stand on my square.

I'm upright.

You know, I'm independent, and I sit in any chair and I talk to anybody right. But some people don't. They ain't been telling the truth right now anywhere, anytime publicly. I don't don't call me behind the scenes, apologizing or asking your friends to apologize. Right, you got on national television and you call me an asshole, and then you said you hated me.

You said that on national television.

Now if you didn't mean it, get on national television say that and apologize for it. Now if you miss let it ride as it is. But so I called you in that same day. You know who I call. I call Magic Johnson. Magic was on the plane. There was shooting commercial in Atlanta. Him, Sam Jackson, everybody else we were standing in the Four Seasons Hotel. We missed each other, right because he said he had to go, so he on the plane, right. I called him up.

That's all I know. Now where do we go from here?

I mean, you told me something to mean you have family that had stayed with him, and say at one.

Point absolutely eight when when Jordan first came to Chicago. First of all, we were fans of his and to some extent still fans of his. My family, his family. Not only did they socialize, hang out, but as I said, you know, I I had a little nephew that lived with him, and and everybody's still cool, right, Ain't no,

Yeah, you know, I've seen a lot of pictures of All Star Games and y'all laughing a joke and it didn't look like, hey.

Yeah, I'm just saying like, you know, if that you know now now maybe you felt like that privately and I didn't know, but now that I do know. And by the way, if you didn't mean it that way, then publicly say it. Don't privately say it. You know, magic, we don't need a private conversation. This man did this on national television internationally. I have to answer this question right in every interview that I sit down and do

You gotta respect that though.

That's why I stay that.

I mean because if the shoe was on the foot, I know I've been disrespected a lot of if somebody disrespected me on TV during the game, but also at the end of the game, they decided.

You know what, I remember, I said that, let me clear this up.

If we get off air, I gotta respect that.

I can't hold it.

I can't be mad at him no more because he corrected himself.

Now you you you said, Magic and I sat down and squashed whatever we had publicly publicly. Magic Johnson apologized. He said, I'm sorry if I hurt you. When I hurt you, I didn't mean that. I'm good with that. Yeah, I gotta accept that and we move on. But if you're gonna let this linger out here in this basketball world and you got everybody else talking, but you ain't saying nothing. Now, if you meant it, stand on it, stand on it.

But if you didn't mean it, clean it up.

You mentioned, Uh, you know, obviously there's no secret that you and Magic were best of friends at one point, And what did it mean to you, to you guys to be able to sit down and clear that air.

For you, it meant a lot, not only to me, but we didn't know, and I didn't know how much it would mean to all of us, to the world. I had no idea, you know, because when you when you're going through that, you're just thinking about yourself. You're not thinking about really how it's affecting other people. And I just had the same thing happened with Karl Malone and I. Right, and by way, thank you Ken, you let you sacking off strong, But you don't realize what

Right.

That that that was a powerful moment not only for he and I, but it was a powerful moment for the world, which we didn't know. So it's like two moments we've had that we didn't realize what we was really doing. That ended up changing a lot of stuff. Like when he and I like first hugged and kissed, right, ah, oh you know what the they it's like I can't I can't meet my brother and give him a handshake.

Well, when we.

Broke down that barrier, we didn't realize what we had really done. Now when we saw each other today, first thing we did we hug you.

I can wait to hug you when I see you.

Yeah, let me And and then then then we hugged for a minute because I wanted to feel you, right. And but back then that was so controversial. Right now, us coming together forgiven compassion, love, friendship, right, it's another powerful moment, not knowing that that's what we were doing, right, you know. So, and I'm glad that he and I got to share that.

I mean, you mentioned and obviously this is going to come up to You mentioned you got a chance to sit down.

With Carl at this last All Star in Utah.

What did you know? How did that go?

Man?

For years, Man, I wanted to do something to Carl Man.

You know you mentioned some people might have met.

But Kmart told this story about how he was watching that game on TV when he was a youngster and out him back for you.

Yeah, and I'm saying thank you.

Yeah, what I'm saying, so you said thank you for people might be car.

But let me but let me say, let me say why I said thank you, and then let me let me go further with that, because for years, that dude put a mark on me. Man, And and for years I was like, I'm gonna get my mark back. You know, you put a scar on me, and get my scar back, and I get my scar back.

We even but you know, my.

Back. But and and so fast forward, right, you know, I'm carrying this around for years, for years. Last dance come out and and you know, every you know, the narrative was, you know, everybody hated Isaiah. You know, nobody wanted him around, nobody wanted to be a part of it so far, and so so that was what's being played. So now on the background, I'm getting calls from everybody. I'm getting calls from the Shock Hit, the Chicago Bulls

Hey, man, that ain't me. You know how I feel about you.

Okay, cool, they don't get called from Carl. And I'm like, and he say, hey man, I and this was years ago, say hey man, I just want to tell you, like, you know, I hear all this stuff about the Dream Team.

You know, I call talk.

I'm a man, I'm a real man. I don't you know. I ain't hiding behind nothing. You know, I didn't have nothing to do with that. You're not making the team. As a matter of fact, you know, I'm speaking for Stockton. Then I we And he said this on camera. He said, if there was a secret meeting me and Stockedon, wasn't a part of those secret meeting trying to keep you off the team? That wasn't us. So now you know my next question is, you know, so man, why you hit me like that? And this is what I have

So you never know what people dealing with, bro.

Yeah, And so I was only looking at it from my point of view. I never knew the type of guilt that he was walking around carrying. And so by me saying, hey man, it's okay, I love you brother, were good man, he said, you just took the whole weight off my shoulder. Now, I never knew he was walking around with waight. I just thought he was walking around like, yeah, I'm a tough dude. Look what I did to you and and somebody else I'm gonna do.

Mid eighties eighties you start winning, start going on the role.

What clicked.

We became one, everybody on the same page. Yeah, yeah, yeah, And I don't care who you sit in this chair. If he's a piston, he gonna tell the same story. He's gonna act the same way. He's gonna carry himself the same way. We still got a group chat, right. John said that said that no, no, no, this this this is who we are from day one. Right, That's what clicked. It wasn't like we became better basketball players. We became like this as opposed to being five individuals.

I got magic in my mind.

I got James Worthy in my mind because I have seen them get up, come back to that Game five, A Game five in Boston, I dropped thirty five, thirty six, had like a great game come back. Game six on the close out game. You know what I mean points I scored in the close our game nine. You know who got hot? Benny the mic away Bennie.

Bennie got hot. It was like, all right, go go Now.

If we was playing analytics basketball and playing selfish basketball, Hey.

Man, I got to get my twenty.

I gotta keep my average up right, right, So that balance that you talk about. We can't beat the Lakers in the Celtics individually, but our team can we beat the team?

Hell yeah?

A lot of people say Boston Celtics, the team you played against, was the probably the most fundamentally sound team ever to play in the NBA. You was able to battle with them. How good were they? They were?

That?

They were that.

Not only were they that, but they were so smart. I mean Walton Bird with Kale Parish, change Dennis Johnson. At one point in time, they had Nate Archibald, Scott Webman. I mean, I mean they were just loaded with talent but extremely smart. In one year, they went forty and one at home. God damn sit how about that? It went forty and one at home. That's how good they were. Now,

Well, that's who we.

Beat, Random both down.

That's who we beat.

Random both down.

That's how good we were.

Yeah, well, you know, like like real talk now, like you say, y'all the only ones that beat all three of them, MJ, Magic and Bird.

Name somebody else who beat all three y'all all three of.

Them, and let me let me put enough something to it. Yeah, let me add some to it.

When we beat them, they were all m vps of the league. Magic was MVP of the league. Jordan was MVP of the league. Bird was MVP of the league when we beat him. Hold that.

It is right there. Give me give me a little bit more about the l veto Larry bird Man. Give me a story man by lb Man.

So I don't know if people, I don't know how this is going to play with America.

Let me just tell you what this dude told me one time, right.

Now, all back line, at one time, it was Kelly Trapuko, Bill Lambert, Kim Benson, three white.

Dudes, two of might have heard of.

All right. So we walk out on the court and he said who guarded me? And I said, well, hey, you know we both from Indiana. We talking stuff. Me and his mom had a close relationship in college.

His mom would write me like notes.

Was even write me notes like when I was in the pros, like you know, good luck everything else. Right, So Larry's always called me cheesy, right, He's like, cheesy who guarded me? And I was like, you know, I got Kelly, got limb I got I got Benson. He's like, you ain't got no brothers like you. He's like, you disrespecting me. That's what he said.

That's exactly what he said.

He said, hey, man, you keep putting no white dude on me? Better straight disrespect right, he said, don't put no white dude on me. So check this out. So the next year we come back, I said, I got somebody for your ass. Right, who you got?

I said, Rob?

He's okay, he's a little better, he said, but don't never put no white dude on me because that is disrespectful. Okay, Now I don't know how America gonna feel about that? All right?

But I think he said in his Sports Illustrated too. You can go get the quote I've heard.

I heard other people talk about lad Bird and I had conversations with people like John Sally and he said the same thing.

He was black. Yeah, I was like, man, he walked on the court, he was black straight, Hey man, but that's who we played with you, that's what I heard. He played with the garbage So the garbage truck workers in.

The story is in French lick.

You know, he he grew up, you know him and Quinn Buckner, right, you know, so he grew up. You know, even though French lick. You know that's that's kind of Larry. You know, he he ain't in all that right, he like.

You know, he did his own thing.

But you better put somebody on me that sin and yeah, he ain't got no melon. He can't guard me.

You can't guard me that you disrespected my game. And even we got some meling.

He gonna have a long night.

But you know what though, but you know what, though, I know he walked out on the court one time. Somebody said, look at this white boy, and he can't guard me and Larry served him, you know, so I'm pretty sure he heard that before.

And they they used to talk so much trash man.

So I remember we were playing them in the elimination game in Joe Louis Arena, and you know, end of the game, they up like eight or nine, they don't won the series, and you're gonna try to take that last shot, right and Michael said, I hope you make this last shot because it's your last one.

Other season, while I'm in the air.

Bit air, damn clang, I missed it, you know. But they used to talk so much trash man. And if you go back and you watch that the Lakers Celtic documentary, you will see how much trash they was talking to. I don't know if it was Worthy or Magic was at the fire line and he missed the free throw and mL car walked across the fire line and man, and I remember, I don't know if it was eighty four eighty five.

So I'm following the series back and forth.

The Lakers win in Boston, and they just come up in there and they gainst the Boston like, you know, because Boston was supposed to be the physical team. The Lakers was sposed to be showtime, and you know, so Lakers came up in.

There and just you know, boom, boom, pound.

And then you know, so Larry Bird the next day, you know, he called my team, you know, called him Sissy's and everything else, you know, all the newspaper. Right, so now they come back. I think it was game five here, and I mean it is. I think that's the game that Michael grabbed Rabbits threw him out of there, right.

I'm I'm like no, I'm in my mind like, don't come double, don't come double.

And he came in double and he kicked it out to Dennis Johnson and Dennis Johnson knocked it down right from the fire line.

Boom game.

And Boston beat l A here. But those type of you know, rivalries going back and forth. I mean the way they was fighting, and.

I I felt so.

Sorry and bad for Bird because the way Michael Cooper was guarding him. Man, I mean, dude, you you can see Michael Cooper's fingernails all on Birds, like you know, one time he pulled his his shirt and all you saw was Coop's fingernails, like and but man, they was going at it. And so now they go back to Boston and Bird was real clever. So they have an out of bounds play where balls balls here on the right side and he's coming up to set an upscreen as he comes, you know, instead of it being a

It was like hit the back of the rim.

But it must it al must have stayed in the air for about five seconds, I mean, just spinning perfectly right boom, hit the back, bounced off, and I was like, hey, God was with y'all to day Lays, because I mean, it was so clever of a play that he was able to up slide ball there. Ball came in and he was able to just right in front of the Laker bench. And if you go back and you look,

Was like, yeah, give me something quick on Robin.

Best athlete I've ever seen, probably in the NBA, not the highest jumping athlete, but just the best athlete. Like I've never seen anybody who a ran that fast and then quick jump like that. So my first time playing with him, literally he gets to rebound kick it to me on the outlet pass right, and so when I get on the outlet, now I'm dribbling to the middle of the floor to set the brake. As I'm driveling it to the middle of the floor. Now this dude

That was that he was. He was a genius man.

Dennis Rodman was a flat out genius when it came to basketball.

I remember when he went.

To Chicago and they said, well, you're gonna have a hard time learning the triangle.

He goes, it's a triangle.

Game five after the after the inbound turnover.

Yep.

Talk about this series and losing. You say, Bird wouldn't be all that if he was black, all that little stuff you know that went on. But and after that, y'all went on to win three finals. And I want to talk about that too, because two, I mean, excuse me, two, it should have been three.

Should have been three. Yeah, and talk about that too.

That'll be the second question about do you believe that the Pistons are dynasty.

Well, we're not a dynasty because technically we didn't win three, right, So is that what caught because there's no written rules.

So we had a debate with Freddie Gibbs who said, you guys were an about back and forth. Yeah, three, that makes you with a several runs, That makes you well.

To me, it's about your your dominance in your banners, right and even and even though you even though you there's reasons why you didn't get that third banner, right, we would have been the first team in all era to win three. Only two teams if they say the eighties is the greatest basketball era, right, only two teams went back to back. It was Pistons in the Lakers as great a team as the Celtics were, they didn't go back to back. Only two teams went back to back.

Now our.

So are we a dynasty? We didn't get the third in Chicago was the first team to get three after this septh So Chicago, you can say, okay, what they did those three years and then came back and did you know, So that's when dynasty stopped. Dynasty talk starts. Lakers Celtics you have to give them dynasty talk because of their historical relevance. What Magic and Barry walked into,

What now?

What I would say, who's been the most impactful team on the NBA, It's the Detroit Pistons. When you look at our style of play, pick and roll, basketball, stretch five in lambeer, small guards, you know, shooting from the perimeter. We didn't have post that player. The way we influenced the game. The guys like myself, we weren't supposed to

The dudes won.

We weren't supposed to win, right And as a matter of fact, I'm still the only one that's won this way.

Now.

Steph Wright has won in Golden State, established a dynasty. But his playing style is different than mine totally. I scored and assisted. He scores, so two different ways of impacting, but so Golden State what they did Dynasty. But the most impactful and the most influential team that's played is a Detroit Pistons two. I still hold the record on both ends. And when you look at the playoff record in terms of steals, I think one year I had sixty six steals in a playoff run. I'm gonna say

Yeah, I was real.

That's a lot of defense right there. But you know, I think we've influenced the game the most from an offensive standpoint and also from a defensive standpoint. And then I would also say from a guard playing standpoint, the way guards play now. Every team they don't have a Magic Johnson type guard. They don't have a Michael Jordan type guard. They don't have a Dennis Johnson type guard. Every team right now has an Isaiah Thomas, Joe Dumars,

Arguably the greatest team ever symbled in nineteen ninety two, your coach is the coach, and even at twelve years old, I knew the world knew you were missing from that team.

Yeah, talk to us about that. Well, you know the last dance told you that's somebody who said they didn't want me on the team.

Do you really believe it was a secret meeting.

Well, a lot of people are saying there was no secret meeting. So it just sounds like it's just one guy. I said, that's the way medium mind, that's the way it's sounding like. You know, And if that's how you felt, own it, right, don't you know own it? That's how you felt, you know, own it. If you didn't feel that way, then clean it up. So I didn't make the team. That was the first time that I didn't make a team in my life.

I never felt the sting of get and cut right.

So when we all try for a team, you go and they put the they put the names on the wall, and you look and you see if you made it. Well, I was always on the team. This is the first time I didn't make a team and did that sting? Did that hurt?

Absolutely? Did?

I want to be on the team one hundred percent right? But I didn't make it.

Now?

Was I mad? Was I upset? Probably went through all of those ranges of emotion. But then you know, again, I'm from the West side of Chicago, so it's like, hey, you didn't make it.

What you're going to do?

What's next? You can cry about it or you can you know, move on with your life. So I just kept moving on. I watched every game, I rooted for the USA to win. I have won the gold medal in seventy nine. I made the Olympic team in eighty that was boycotted, and was hoping that I would make this one. I didn't make it. I didn't know why

Jordan rules, you went two titles. Mike is starting to catch, you know, get some stem with his team. Explain to the Jordan. Explain what the Jordan rules are and where it came from or what that is.

John Sally told us his version of yeah, yeah, yeah, and it's pretty simple. Now, we had rules for everybody. We were a disciplined team. We had rules and we followed rules, We followed orders. This is what we had ten point plan. This is what we did. This is how we act, this is how we walked.

This is what we do.

So we had rules for Magic, we had rules for Kareem, we had rules for Bird. Just like y'all go into a locker room that rules for everybody, right, So Jordan rules. Jordan was a reluctant passer. He didn't like to pass, no question, and he was the first volume shooter, so he wasn't like a like now you see kids that got great handles and all that. He didn't have great handles. Couldn't go left right, and if he went left more than two three times, he had to pick it up.

Jordan didn't want to pass. So what would he do?

Turn over? He would shoot, I'll shoot it, yeah.

And guess what he would do. He would miss. Okay, now.

He would be You know, we didn't mind if he was nine for twenty six.

We didn't mind if he was ten for thirty.

Now the newspaper were right, he scored twenty seven, but we would say, okay, you know it was ten for thirty. Now, mind you, there were a couple of games he was twenty for twenty five. He wasn't always ten for thirty. But here's what this was the key though, by him being a volume shooter. So this stuff they talk about analytics right now and all this other stuff. Okay, that was the Detroit Pistons. Okay, how many possessions you're gonna

But here's what was the.

Key, Scotty who normally gets twelve to thirteen shots because he's a reluctant passer this game, Scotty, you're only gonna get seven shots. And you know this one over here, Harace Grant, you might get three shots. And by the way, those shots that you've taken and that you're getting, they're gonna be at the end of the shot clock. It's gonna be somebody running at you, potato, and now right,

So those were the Jordan rules. Now Jordan goes to the basket.

Let's say he beats all the double teams right now, he gets to the basket. The NBA at that time wanted to market the dunk, right and understanding their marketing plan, the Lakers, the Celtics, it was birds shooting, it was magic passing, it was Kareem hooking. Now they come with the marketing plan that we want to market the dunk.

Everybody got to fly.

In the air. Remember when y'all were growing up, how high can you dunk. How do you got a dunk? You got dunk this way right now? They market in a three point shot. Man, you can come down and do a zach lavine dunk between your legs, floating the air and all this other stuff and do that.

That's all somebody shoot a three w.

Right crazy. So so the marketing right, so understanding the marketing plan, we ain't gonna let you dunk. Guess what when you come to the whole and you've heard this from all your coaches, don't give up the dunk. We gonna file you. That's and put you on the file line. So when we would file him and put him on the fire line, he would cry, real files too, Oh yeah, what I was getting real files too? Yeah, wait a minute, one like one like he was the only one get

You know, I mean, who was.

The big guy that the talk got of elbowed you?

Now I call him? It was another all right call.

Right car right, yes, sir, all right, you still lit? I got my lip you call He's coming in like I like to fight. So you go back and you slow that down. I you know, my little left hand was up in there, and I went to plant, and I'm glad I slipped because I went to plant. And when I went to plant, he was still rushing. And by him being big and coming in right on that chin, no, I was broke. No, I was gonna drive that nose bone right up to his brain. I was coming, man,

They hit it if it was dirty. Look look what they did.

They show you all the clips, right, They show you a few video clips and tell the world this is how they played.

They don't never show you the game.

Have you seen the Chicago Bulls Detroit Pistons basketball game. Any of y'all fans will show you the game. They show you the few video clips because they got to keep this thing going.

But show how we really played. Everybody got filed.

There's a guy during that time got hit harder and more times than Isaiah Thomas driving down the lane. I got the scars for it, but I ain't never cried. I just got up, went to the fire line. But you know he went to the league office. You know they wrote newspaper articles about it. You sitting here talking about the Jordan rules, and man, we had Kareem rules, we had Magic rules.

Y'all played. There was Tim Duncan Ruse, Ryan Ruse rules. So don't make it sound.

Like AI rule. Don't get crossed.

Yeah, don't make it sound like it was.

Yeah, it don't make it sound like it was something really special for them that we had a defensive philosophy for everybody. We played again and his was okay, send them to the foul line, they can make free throws. He was eighty five from the line. We had a better chance for him missing the free throw, which he didn't miss that many. But that dunk, that's for sure too. Yeah, so momentum.

Again, So you know possessions, you know shot clocks.

You keep trying to go up and dunk four quarter? You tied them shots short.

Tell me about it. And by the way, guess what we set real screen? Yeah, yeah, we set screens on offense. Yeah, so you know, everybody getting picked, but then there's some people who get picked harder. Right, so if you if your head ain't on a swivel down there, part of that's part of the game now, lockof So that so don't don't again, don't make it like something that it really was.

But you know, as basketball players, we understand that because if you've been in the playoffs, you have you you do game planers and different strategies for each team.

Each you have rules for star players.

So but I also like them being able to explain it because this is the narrative that has been.

Out for thirty forty years. You know what I mean? For you to be able to break it down.

It wasn't just there was rules for this, this and that, but they just chose to focus.

On That's why y'all got the best show of going all that smoke. You got two crew form of players that now I can have in depth real basketball conversations. I ain't talking to two guys that ain't never played in the NBA. I ain't talking two guys that ain't never won championships. They ain't never played. I'm talking to the real guys now, right. There ain't a whole lot of real guys you can have this level of conversation with, right, So it always had to get dumbed down. You know.

But like I said, it's definitely refreshing to hear from your mom because we know that we know it's rules for every different players, especially the star players. And if you don't have no rules, they're gonna get your ass fifty points. Then you gonna look like you don't even belong God there, Thank you, good down, Thank you.

Early nineties.

You're coming off three straight finals appearance. You tell your achilles an injury back then there was a career ender. Now they're coming back off them thoughts when that happens.

So here was the career ending that that I don't talk about and didn't talk about. Right, So your wrists, yeah, see this is as far as I can bet my wrist. That's your shooting hand to my shooting hand. Now, the doctor Kirk Watson, it's called the Kirk Watson Rich surgery.

He invented the surgery.

And when he did this surgery on my wrist in ninety one, this is the year we lost.

I think I missed like fifty some games that year.

He said to me, you never play basketball again, and I was like, no, I'm gonna play. Go No, this is this is career ending specifically for a small guard. Now for big men who play around the basket. If you was six seven post up guy, you know it worked. But you being a small guy having to shoot from the perimeter. And you can go back and look after we won in ninety and after this wrisk surgery, right, you can look at my stats from ninety one to

Now, why did I have to hang on that contract?

Right? You know you you got three more years left on the contract. I ain't gonna get that bad. You gotta get the money now. I can't retire. So you stay and you do the best you can. But you're not the same anymore. When did you realize you want? Like as soon as you came back, you knew. I was like, oh shit, I can't bend my wrist. I couldn't. So nineteen ninety, I think I still hold the three point shooting record in the NBA Finals, the highest percentage.

What you was?

What you was shooting in the ocean?

Sh I was kind of good understand So that that still is the highest percentage percentage right sixty. So now I come back ninety one and how you hurt your wrist? Shot too much? It was just doctor said, hey, yeah, he said, you on't hear so many bands in the wrist. Crazy and I was, man, I I practice. All I was doing was shooting, and I had got so good from that three point line, and then my penetration game

Big, funky the cast was stinking. Oh I remember them days.

Yeah, yeah.

And so now we I'm playing left handed in the playoffs because I can't.

Shoot, Is it painful. You just can't bend.

It painful, you know, I wouldn't come out of the cast muscles around it. And then they slapping, I mean they hit me. Scottie Pippen hit my arm one time in the Eastern Coverage final. Man, I swear to god, tears came to my just smother. I didn't do all that because you can't let them know, right, man, I swear to god, I started crying. And if I wasn't sweating, right, you would have seen it. People, people would have seen it. I was just playing it off, like man, that dude

I don't even understand this because it's not physical. This is the internet talk. So there's been some guys that we play with, Yeah, Gilbert Aarenaz, JJ Redick in particularly that says it's tougher to play in today's game than it was to play in the eighties. Thoughts on that, I mean, obviously the physicality. I don't think there's any comparison to the physicality when you played to what today

So I do have to answer this question in a lot of ways. Okay, so the errors are different. Some people say the eighties was the best era of basketball. Ever, some people have said the nineties, you know, it's wasn't one of the greatest basketball eras ever them two thousands. You know that as the rules started changing and coaching schemes started changing. When you say the game has evolved, so I'm gonna go back and I'm gonna go there, and then I want you to take me back to

From that range.

People always shot from their range, they just didn't do it as part of their offensive schemes. Mark Jackson solely accepted Steph and Clay shooting from that distance, from that range doing crucial parts of the.

Game because before that it was lived by the day three dive US three because it hadn't been proven yet that you could win that way.

Well, we proved it.

Consistently at a I'll take it back because it was inside out. But also you know when you when we talked about your three point percentage were eleven for sixteen in the finals.

Like that's one game for guys, now, you know what I mean. So just the volume, the value, that's what I'm doing it so Mark, So the one who has power gives definition too, and the one who has power can also allow things to happen. We came up and when we were playing all coaches that wasn't acceptable to shoot and from that distance or play that way. It just wasn't acceptable. Mark Jackson alone accepted and when he accepted,

You can do that.

And I'll never forget watching Golden State play. Okay see, and Clay Thompson pulled up, dude in the pressure situation, the pressure situation from the hash Mark bam. Now, Mark Jackson wasn't coaching in but the thought the acceptability right that that's were watching Kevin Durant and Cleveland come down and Lebron James waiting for him, and Kevin Durant stopped three feet from behind Booms Sandwiches, and they asked Lebron James what was the difference between last year and this year?

To shoot them there.

Yeah, me, neither at all. But allow you to miss from there.

It wasn't shooting like you said, It was the missus.

It's the missus. He can't keep missing. That can't keep missing. Now we see, guys. I saw Steph come back his first game after being injured one time, and he went three for sixteen in Portland from the three point line. It's acceptable now, sixteen of them boys, it's acceptable now, right?

You know you can. You can go one for.

Ten and say I'm gonna get hot Mark, Mark Jackson.

Change the game.

And that's not even just credit and Clay and stuff's talent. But like you said, to understand what you're saying, it's just someone that will allowing and accept it and understand it. And you're definitely not wrong. I know you were obviously a team guy and and you ran your system and

If I dominated, then I would dominating. Yeah, I mean I because the rules now favor me. They favor the small guy. They they favor me. Now, freedom of movement, self space, No, ain't nobody in the lane.

No hand checking either.

Yeah, but you know the hand checking it bothered me some. But I was fast right, so and then I knew a little judo, So you put your hand there. I hit them, you know, I knew how to I knew how to move it and get by. But the nobody in the lane. See, every time I drove down the lane, six people in the lane. You know, there's me and my defender and then there's you know, two big So you you got to be tricky around the basket. Now

I agree to say the least three players you feel like they'll be the face of the NBA in the next ten years.

I don't know if they'll be from America. I'm just saying facts.

That's crazy.

I mean, that's crazy, that that's true though, Jannis Luca, you know, Joker. I mean when you look at the last five, the young boy woman Yama. Yeah, I mean when you look at the last name, the last four five m m vps, they all been international players. Now that's you know, that's the conversation I have.

Yeah, winning the MVP and can't get to the finals or at least the conference finals or something. You can't gotta win. Yeah, it gotta be a shut it down after, like you can win it back to back. Okay, cool, I understand that. But one of them back to back years, you got at least get to your conference finals. Bro, you can't get there. You're not MVP.

Got it one time? Then they go to the Western finals.

Once in the bubble, right now, that bubble ship don't count.

But this was the number. This where the analytics don't count.

This is where the analytics, like you know, the the those remember I said, those who are in power, they give definition two. So they get to define, and they get to make the rules and they get to say what's acceptable. So now winning is totally discounted. Yes, that you know, it's like anybody can win. And I'm here to say, no, that ain't true. Those of us who have won will let you know like it ain't easy. No, it ain't easy. And that that guy who's the twelfth man that do count? Right?

And why does he count?

Because there is a such thing called chemistry that makes a whole team work, that makes it all together.

And that guy who part of it is a big part of it.

His personality, his character, his showing up things that you don't measure right, those things are what we say, those are the things that we value. Remember when we was growing up, it was like, dude, you could have a twenty points and ten rebounds, but if your character is nasty, you.

Ain't on a team.

Yah, I ain't picking you, You ain't on a teen. You just ain't on a team. Now you can have as twenty and ten have a bad attitude and they'd be like, well, you know, he does get twenty points ten rebounds, but they never speak to your personality, your character, who you are, you're upstanding, none of that, right, So since winning doesn't matter now, we're just talking about numbers.

You know, we got to give you that.

Yeah, but you can't be the MVP of the league one year and your team is in fifth places.

Yeah.

Yeah, it's never worked that way.

And you can't be the.

Best player in the league for sure when your team not even in the playoffs. Yeah, they won't know a lot of people don't want to hear that.

Those are those are the facts. Well that's how that's how we look at it. Yeah, right, it's like now, unfortunately we don't have the loudest voice.

You know that we're not the majority.

The majority has the loudest voice because there's more of them, Right, But that doesn't mean that they're right.

Absolute, No, not at all, not at all, not at all.

Mean culture, you haven't mean that came out. I met the criteria to be selected, but I wasn't. Thoughts on just where can you imagine having social media back when you guys played, we would have killed it?

He said, we were killed.

What's what's mean?

You know I met the criteria, but I wasn't selected. Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah yeah, but I kind of like that. Yeah. Now, speaking of that meme, right, you see me dressed in the three piece suit. This the other thing I got to say about Mike Now, his producer and Mike, they called me, hey, we need you in the video. Can't tell my story without you. He's so important. Now I'm thinking, we all cool, can't tell my story without you, you.

Know, blah blah blah blah.

So I dress up. I'm sitting in a three piece suit. I bring one of my partners, Kevin Cottrell or you know, he was sitting in the interview. We actually did it at NBA TV. I sat there for two hours, said a lot of good stuff. Right, last dance, come out, and that's it. Now I'm dressed to the nine. I didn't come here in the sweatsuit today. I'm giving you respect. I'm gonna show up, you know, the right way, because I got respect for you. I showed up the right way for that dude. And I sat there and I

Tell me if I'm going too far. Did you get a check?

Noh? Hell noah no, wait wait a minute, I didn't ask for a check.

No, I know you to ask for you know what I'm saying. But like you know, damn.

But but the way I was brought up right again, we talk about that West side of Chicago that you know we I came up in the era where where we give each other knowledge. You know, the game game is meant to be told, and I sold right. This is a generation that has sipped flipped it all around. So we don't work with each other, We don't share with each other, don't pass on knowledge. We don't we don't uplift each other, you know. And so I went there to uplift love. Yeah. Absolutely, I didn't go there

Talk about all times. Two thousand elected to the Hall of Fame. When you think about your body of work, starting in high school, through college, through the league, what rinse what stands out to you the most?

Just a winner, proven winner.

Everybody can't say they won on every level.

They played on and started an NBA franchise in the foreign country, the Toronto Raptors. So when I look at the Raptors and what I did there has stood at the test of time. And you know that two thousand going into the Hall of Fame. So I retired in ninety four in April. In May, I was part owner president of the basketball operation. I was the first player to ever walk off the floor go straight into it

So they started the G League and now everything that.

The g you have something to do with the CBA.

I owned it. I owned the whole league.

I didn't know that. I played that ship for about two weeks. Yeah no, no, the cross Bobcat, Yeah, the worst place on earth.

I owned the whole league.

About every team, say word about about every team. And I was I was the first individual. It's the first individual to ever own an entire league. Not the way they the way it's been written. Oh you you bankrupted the cb A time out the NBA. David Stern and those owners bankrupted the CBA and started the g leag on purpose. Well, it was competition, you know, And and I get it, that's business, you know. They were they had more money, and I didn't have the money to

Same thing.

You thought.

It's business.

They looking at his business like no, no, no, no, no no, it's good enough you competition, we want that or either get out now the other thing that you know, let's those are lessons learned. Those are those are hard business lessons. So when you talk about the first game that was ever broadcast live over the internet that came out of the CBA, Isaiah Thomas did that CBA Hoops, there was a CBA Hoops before NBA dot Com. Okay, so that let's just real talk, and that those now

Same thing, yep, just with more money.

Now. The other thing that you can go back and look into history when you talk about the CBA, they said I couldn't own the league and coach in the NBA at the same time, so they said it was a conflict of interests.

The only time that there was a special.

Vote in the NBA by the owners that rule that Isaiah Thomas could not own the league or a team because it was a conflict of interests. The owners voted, so I had to sell or give up the CBA to coach the Indiana Pacers. M hmm. Interesting.

So did you have a hand in putting the team in Lacrosse, Wisconsin, because I've still traumatized from that city. My first day I go to practice or go unpacked and the team decides to go bowling. As soon as I get rid of the road, mis strike. Two dudes coming in and lay the whole place.

Down to rob everybody.

I'm like, I want to make play basketball, but I don't know if the risk is worth the reward.

So Stid, my brother and I had family in Racine, Westconsin and I had a lot of bad a lot of people from Chicago.

A lot of people from.

Chicago from Racine, yeah, exactly.

A lot of Racine was ontouchables, yeah street.

Yeah, a lot of people from Chicago left and had to go to Wisconsin. They went to two places, Wisconsin, Minnesota, Wisconsin, Minnesota. And so actually the owners and Lacrosse, they were good people. So the CBA owners when I bought the CBA from them, all of them were good people.

They were good operators.

I left them all in the business and the NBA became. You know, they wanted a league for themselves.

Is this urban legend? Is there any truth to this that you wanted to draft Kevin Garnett in Toronto, put him in the middle and put four guards around him.

Absolutely, So let me let me tell you break that down. Let me tell you what ended up happened, and then I'll break it down. So I'm gonna remind you of a guy by the name of Marcus Camby that I had a brother that you loved by the name of Doug Christy one that I drafted by the name of Tracy McGrady. I love point guard that was Rookie of the Year by name of Dane Stottlemyre. And then number

And he ends up at Farragut on the West Side.

And you know, aren't you from the West Side.

You know his mom and everybody they they end up you.

Know, in Chicago, someone had to roll their red carpetile for him.

And so now you know, we're watching Garnett do his thing, and by that time, you know they you can draft high school players. The rules had changed, so I'm trying to figure out how can I get the players? So I had a meeting with the guys that I when I got the job. I had meeting with text Ram Elgin, Braidler, Jerry West, and Buddy Ryan the football coach. Football coaches. Why did I go to football?

Right?

Because football drafts six rounds and Dallas was known for thinking outside the box. You may not remember a guy by the name of Bob Hayes, but Bob Hayes ran tracks a long time ago. Y'all. We wasn't even born, but they was known for, you know, drafting, you know, guys outside of their sport. So I wanted to know how and why they thought that. Way had to talk with him. Then I studied what the forty nine ers were doing, because what football does that basketball? Don't them?

You know character?

You know all those Chicago So you didn't you weren't worried about none of that.

Well, you know, I was kind of helping that because I wanted to follow us. Right.

So so I get a.

Call from Micheale. Right, he goes, I, I need you to be honest with me. He goes, tell me about this kid, Garnett. I can't get a read on him. I said, Kevin, I'm not gonna lie to you. I said, if you don't draft him, I'm going to draft him. Right. He goes, you really would take him? I say absolutely? And I say he would be great with you. I said, but you know, if you don't take him, I'm definitely taking them. Everything else you're hearing around him is just

Did Rosberry will recruit you?

Jesse Evans?

Jesse Evans?

Oh okay, okay, so yeah, so so so I called Rosboro up. I'm like, tell me about Damon, right, I can't miss. Damon becomes a Rookie of the Year. So that's how, that's how Garnett, you know, got started interesting quick hitters. First thing to come to mind.

Let us know what you think top five point guards of all time?

This is gonna be a good one. Well, I gotta go size in terms of category, because when you look at you know, Magic and Oscar Robertson right there, that's a different there. There was Oscar six six five, he was six five, but dude, like I mean strong, you know, have a triple double all of that, and so you know, I put them in a different category. So we're gonna say they're the best. And why are they the best? Because their size and their weight gives them an advantage over all of us six one dudes.

Right now, when you get to small people my size.

I'm one, two, three four infant that just you know, it's like, and why do I say that? Name me one guy my size who's done what I've done? Mm hmm, step boy, you got anything for me?

I can't see nobody.

And the reason why I separate you from a lot of point guards the same reason I separate Kobe from a lot of people, just that toughness, just being relenting, that being a winner. I I look at winning different. You know what I'm saying. I appreciate winning more than anything. You know what I'm saying. So I respect that. So that's why I separate you, because you have the toughness and to win. Everybody don't have that.

Can you humor us real quick and give us you plus four more? Just kind of see what you're thinking.

Is on the real right. So so I'm gonna go. If you listen, Steph Curry as a point guard, Yeah we are, we are okay, then Steph? We are right then Steph, because no one's done. He's done right from a championship winning standpoint.

Now we've done it differently.

But people all size right, you know, it's it's one and two right, and and if I was picking right, depending on what day, he may be one, because you know that, and man, it's intimidating when the guy stepp across half court and he can just let it go you and you're standing down in the layup line doing your layups, shooting mask court. That's intimidating. So it's a psychological effect that.

He brings to the game.

And then he's got he's got the intellect, he's got the he's got the smartness, he's got the toughness, he's got the he's got the character, he's got the pedigree, he's got the leadership. Agree he's got he's got all of that. Right, there's there there there's no flaws there. So you know what what I what I banked on right is again, I'm gonna out think you. I'm gonna concentrate you. I'm gonna you're going to make a mistake against me that allows me to beat you. Right. So

Yeah, uh what now is that he's in the category.

Yeah, he's in there.

So speaking of nas, is he still answering this?

Yeah? Finish more so then and then I gotta go Stockton, Chris Paul. This is gonna be tough one, but I got I gotta throw j Kidd in there.

You know, how can you not Well.

People gonna say Nash one two m v ps and but but but Jason Kidd. You know he was a motherfucker boy.

Yeah yeah, yeah, jig kid.

Yeah.

When people say that Nash one to he did man, but shacking Kobe man, Man, Kobe should have won that.

Man.

But the rules, the rules again, that's the regular season award, But the rules changed. That's when the rules started changing where small people can start playing. So I was in actually, I was actually in the room with Mark Cuban the day he made that trade or didn't resign Nash. Were sitting in Dallas and it's Cuban and I were in the room and he's debating if if he should keep Nash and the rules hadn't changed yet, and you know, he had all his material and he was saying, you know,

D'antonia and created ship.

Jack don't like dantony he one ship always get a job now, but they come from John.

McClinton, d Phony.

You know, so let's let's let's be factual and get a credit where credit goes. Mark Jackson changed the game. John McClinton invented fast break basketball seven seconds.

Never thought about it the way you broke down. But it makes complete sense about the Mark Jackson thing.

YEP one album you listen to on repeat, Earth Wining fire Man, hold up. Don't do that to earth Win and fire. That's the way of the world. They West Side Boys went to Crane High School. Maurice White verdein that that's Chicago. I'm telling you that Chicago is deep. And when you look at the album, you look at the airic they you know, they they was talking to us. They was talking to us about nationality, birth rights, citizenship, spirituality.

The funniest thing that happened to me recently.

You might have asked you for your ID when he was trying to get a drink. Funniest thing that happened to me recently. So I work on the NBA TV with Christian Letlow. Right, so I'm going through the Detroit Airport, going through the Detroit Airport and and you know, I'm playing golf with with these dudes at Oakland and this dude goes, oh.

This guy goes, hey, ain't.

You that dude that worked with Christian Letlow Detroit? I mean Detroit? Now my picture on the wall everything airport?

When you go to.

You know, ain't you that dude that were with Christian Letlo?

I said yeah yeah.

He goes, oh, man, I love her like she she's the best, she's great everything else. So I'm like, you know, he just going off. So you know, Letlo and now we're pretty tight. So I said, hey, you want to talk to her? He's like, oh yeah, so I dial up Letlo right right, So I give him the phone right So he now he starts asking her basketball questions like, hey, you know what, who you think gonna gonna win the championship this year?

You know?

And and you know who you think the best players? And so I'm looking at this dude like, hey, man, you know, I'm Thomas.

You know what I mean.

But you know, I'm feeling some kind of way, but I'm playing it off, right because I know when I get the phone back, I'm gonna get an autograph or pictu or something. Right.

So, now they get through talking.

He had me the phone back and he goes, oh, man, you're so lucky you get to work with let Alone. I just I just love her and I just think she's the best, you know, really really thank you, you know, and good luck to you. And he walked away. I'm like, what the hell? Like what? So, so I would say, that's the funniest thing that that that kind of happened.

I'm that dude that work with Christian Letlo.

And you could be this next person the other Isaiah Thomas talk about just the confusion that is constantly goes between you two.

Man, I love it when he gets criticized because being named after you. But so I'm I'm scouting, and uh, I think I'm still in New York at that time, and and I'm hearing about this this guard in Seattle by the name of Isaiah Isaiah Thomas, and I'm like, this guy, this can't be right, you know, like, and are you thinking, like is he mine? Or what you're thinking?

Want to meet this dude.

So now his mom was at the game, and so his mom and his dad they come up, you know, they say hello, and you know, and then I finally get to meet him. And when I got to meet him, it was like, damn, like you, I feel like I really know you. I feel like I do feel like there's some you know, the universe talk to you, and there's some spirituality that you know. And I'm and so I'm really feeling this dude, like I hadn't been in his presence, but in his presence, I'm like, dude, like,

He don't get drafted or he's the last pick in the draft.

He's at the draft.

He's at the draft, and and in my mind, I'm like, this dude can really play. I don't know why. I don't know why they tripping, and I don't know why the scouts are tripping, but this dude can really play and he should be in the NBA. So he gets drafted by Sacramento. Michael Malone is his coach. Now, I've known Michael Malone since he was this big Brendan Malone. His father, right, was my assistant coach in Detroit, and he was also my first hire as a coach in Toronto.

So and now he goes to Boston. Now I'm all fucked up.

I'm really messed up now because Isaiah Thomas.

It's playing for Boston.

It's playing for the Boston Celtics. And they love Isaiah in Boston love it. And I'm like this, this don't go to get it, don't just don't work. How is this working? And now he's breaking all kinds of records in Boston and I'm here Tommy Heyson talking about, Oh, Isaiah, he's the best, He's he's the greatest, and oh you got love that Isaiah Thomas. And I'm like, you know, what's the little girl who does the thing when she say make it make sense.

Make it makes sense.

I didn't mean to call you a little girl. I mean the woman.

Forgive me.

I'm old.

So you know, but but anyway, it just it just what are the odds? What are the odds that a young man is named after you? And we know how hard it is to make it to the NBA. Right then he gets to the NBA then plays for the Boston Celtics, and y'all got the same name. I mean that that that is that is some spooky kind of stuff that's going up with your universe stuff.

So we we're gonna make the Celtics love Isaiah work with me.

Nice best Kobe story you can share with.

Us, best Kobe story that I can share with you.

So I'm in New York and Polenka, who I've known since he was in college and we used to our Detroit team used to go up and play against you know the five five, you know, Chris and all them, and Polenka was was there. So now Polenka's representing Kobe, and you know, Rob called me and he's like, you know, Kobe really wants to talk to you. He wants to you know, he wants to you know, understand how you think.

You know.

I've told him a lot about you know, Detroit, the bad Boys, everything else, and he wants to have a conversation with you. Now at that time, you know, Kobe is thinking about leaving in LA too, and he keeps saying it's not about the money. And in New York, all we had was a mid level to offer him. Now, he didn't visit I don't know if he visited any other teams, but he flew to New York to meet us to talk about signing with the Knicks, and all

To rise the way I want a rise. And he says, so if.

If i'm if Shaq is gone, or if I win at someplace else, then I can get to that next level or whatever level he was trying to get to. I was like, okay, so I've never heard any back like think like that. You know, that's it's kind of different. And Rob was sitting there and he goes, I told you this, He's a little different.

You know.

He says, so you want to shoulder that burden all by yourself? He goes, yeah, and and so now you know, he starts talking to me about the pistons and thinking and being and and at that time, I don't know if y'all remember, but Kobe wasn't well liked by his teammates.

Uh.

And he wasn't a guy that you know, hung out or anything like that. You know, very disciplined, very regimented, work atthick and everything else. And he's like, you know, I want people to like me. But at the same time, I don't want to change. And so I was like, don't change. I said, you're doing it the right way. I said, I'm not sure if you can win without

Want to win it on my own.

I said, good luck, young man. And so that's my Kobe story, right, And that left an impression on me in terms of someone having.

A wheel and a determination.

And when they lost to the Celtics in Boston that game seven, I think it was it was Game six or seven, the first one, the Celtics beat him, and if you remember, he was.

Like six for thirty or yet he had like a really.

Bad game, and in my mind, I'm like, it's gonna be hard to get up that heell. And then the next year he comes back and he stamp it with a back to back boom boom, without shot, without shock five and with gasol, and then he does this right, So I was like, yeah, I got three with shack, but I got it, I got stamped back to back. Now,

Kobe to the next next question, Oh, we had no shot, but of the idea and the respect right that he would even entertain it, And that never got out. So you had breaking news on all the smoke.

God damn, I appreciate you. You got the stories that ain't got out. You know that we know that Jack. You should tell him the one about when you when you almost got ran out of this league.

Where at an Indie.

And yeah, remember that call you made to me and I called the commissioner up.

Man, I forgot about that.

You was out. I was done.

You was done. You was done.

I was done so many times. But y'all remember that.

And and you you said, I called you from AL.

Yeah, that's how I got in touch with you.

And I called David Stern. I said, you can't do that to him.

I was done. You was out.

I remember that you was gone. M that's how you got back in the league.

I was done.

You remember that.

I guess that you should tell that story.

I actually forgot about that, but I remember vividly now. Yeah, because I was I was trying to call everybody that I figured would.

Help me at that time. Yeah, and Al saved me, saved.

Me, Isaiah saved I mean I say.

Saved me, but say you know what I mean, saved.

Me, but connected me to you.

Yeah. Yeah, And and you got back out on the court. How many how many weeks after that? Three? Thank you?

Three weeks.

I was in the midst of you already suspended.

He was gone.

I was done.

I was at home already, he was suspended.

The wheels were greased and he was out.

Huh.

I don't I think I called ghostbusters. No, I ain't called ghostbusters. I ain't called ghostbusters. Donny Wall, I remember Donny wallh Zeke and.

Uh Mike Brown.

That's the only people that went the wall for me that I did, I remember vividly remember.

But the only one that got to David Stern the ear. Yeah, I went to that man's office.

M hmm.

I can't do that.

Then, that's dope.

That's not going to happen.

Minute my show was gone to I was gone.

I've seen it. I was done.

If you could see one guests on our show.

O G, who would it be?

Michael Jordan's put him in the seat, tell them to come sit here and answer the question.

Whoever the person is to help us get him on.

That's not a question, that's not a question. No, you love his shoe, you love it?

Jingle yeah, y'all yeah, boxes, I'm still signed y'all his number.

You know, y'all, somebody.

That you can help us get on the show that you would like to see on our show. Because I didn't hit him a million times now, that ain't going as pan.

That's that's how as quick as we wanted to.

So here's real talk, right, we in this brotherhood.

Should have to go to the loopholes. Our job and our responsibility is to come here and help you uplifts preach. That is our responsibility. That classified as black in the United States of America. Our job is to come and help each other. Now that being said, he needs to sit here. Now who else? Who else? Who else?

Would I want you to see?

We got a co run. You just topped off a cold run. We have magic Chuck and then you. Yeah, I got How about this? Y'all deserve it?

Thank you, thank you very much.

I got a request, though.

It's different from me, Like I've been knowing about this guy when his teammates my whole life, and I've been in I've been in little tournaments where he saved me as a youngster. Joe Dumas, Joe been knowing me since I was a kid. Yeah, I'm playing in the Lake.

Charles tournaments, basketball tournaments.

Joe is a legend.

Yes, I would love to get a chance to pick his brand and.

Get to know him because I never had a conversation with him.

Yeah, he's someone that you's have in his chair and he can be official season. Yes, you know he wants the Pistons, right, he's in the league office. The bad boys. The Sportsmanship Trophy, we're so bad. It's named after Joe. So the influence that we've had on this NBA that they don't give us credit for, talk about, right, Joe would be great.

Let me ask you one more question. I mean we're dumb, but I mean you're just so open right now. We may never get this opportunity again. Why do you think And this sit down has been so eye opening, mind opening, and I've learned so much. Where did the bad narrative about you come from?

Because I had the audacity to come into this league and ask.

For diversity.

And I said to the media, when I came into the NBA, it was ninety nine point nine percent white male coverage or no females, and it may be a one brother point one.

Right, And.

I said, I do not want to be judged or perceived only through the gaze of the white male. Is eighty That that that that debt And I went to the Commissioner's office. Well, Stern already charged me not to cut you off with this there this, So I came in under Larry O'Brien and then Larry left, David came in and to Stern's credit, this is what Stern did. Big respect to David Stern, because what David Stern did for NBA basketball in to America is David Stern said,

Were taken twenty percent off the top.

Damn, that's crazy. As for a player contracts. They were taking fifty percent on endorsements. So I put in this thing called agent certification, and I cut the fees from twenty percent to a negotiated four and then we slotted the salaries and we uniformed the contract in terms of language. I retired in ninety four and locked y'all out in ninety five.

He said, they locked it out and they winked.

Damn one more time. I retired in ninety four.

They locked you out in ninety five, and then they started clawing back and taking everything that you once had, and then they start putting other people in place. So between the agent's narrative and some of the script writers, and so I want you to go back and look up this word. It's called hegemony.

How you spelled it?

H egm n y y'all get that fun me you don't need it, Jiminy and a hedgemont right. The scriptwriters, those who create the narrative, those who influence, those who tell you not to like me, and like that one. You don't know why you don't like me, You just know, well, it's just something I don't know. Did they look for

Stories and everything else.

You know, from an educational standpoint, we need to know what the script writers are saying, how we being scripted, how were being spoken to and spoken about? The last thing I'm leading with in terms of the thing that I attacked and still attacked today. Language carries outside of the plan field. So these ugly labels that they attached to the Detroit Pistons. Bill Lambert had never been called a thug in his life, grew up in the suburbs,

You know the.

I had never been called a thug in my life, and I've said to civil writers along the way, don't ever call me a beast, don't ever call me an animal. Don't use dehumanizing words and terms to describe the way I play. That's not who I am, that's not what I represent. You're smart, you went to college, you're a journalists.

You have a.

Degree, you have a pretty vast vocabulary. You can find better words and language to use around the way I play. So I get drafted, I'm a restricted free agent. Then I become free. Let that sit with you for a minute. After I gain my freedom, now I can go anywhere. Okay, Now you can fantasize about you can trade me, you can bet on me, you can gamble on me, you can you can say words to me inside this place that no one would dare say outside of this place

These guys are what human? These are human beings.

That's what he said. Oh oh oh, these guys, these guys ain't human they.

Player did it?

No, no, no, no, that commission is right. He wants to treat them like human beings. And he actually used the word human being. And you have one player right now who just left Brooklyn, and he keeps saying, don't dehumanize me.

Words carry weight.

Words carry weight, and it's important how you define read talk about me.

I don't accept it. I push back on a lot of No.

You can't speak to me that way. You can't talk to me that way. You can't say this to me. No, I'm not that. Oh well, when you talk to Isaiah Man, you know that now, Yeah, you come correct. Yes, I'm not accepting you calling me the N word, y'all can say, don't look in the dictionary. This is what it says. Right, don't call me that now, if you want to call your friend that you wanna call somebody, But don't call me that, because when I was growing up, if you

We appreciate you, especially straight off a flight to come here and sit down and spend some time with us, and like I said, and just enlighten us. You know, I learned a lot today and I appreciate.

I got some free stuff.

You got some gears. But this this is one thing that all of us want, right. Don't give me no money. Okay, we won't gear. Do you want gear?

You want the money, We take the gear over the money, right.

Gear.

We got some manscape, we got your body buffer.

You know, we got some all the Smoke T shirt and sweatshirt, just some limited edition all the smoke gear for you.

Will appreciate you showing up. Thank you off the plane.

O G thank you.

I got you so much. Man. We appreciate you than.

I send you a bottle of champagne.

Yeah, yeah, I had one for you.

Well that's a wrap man.

Isaiah Thomas, the one and only, the real Zeke All the Smoke, Showtime Basketball YouTube, and the iHeart Platform Black Effects.

We'll see y'all next week