Welcome to Questions from the Closet. I'm Charlie Bird.
And I'm Ben Schilaty. Each episode we discuss a question that we commonly get asked as LGBTQ Latter-day Saints.
We're not trying to answer this question or come to a consensus but simply sharing our perspectives. Today's question is, will God change my orientation?
Charlie and I are not terribly diverse. And we share many opinions and life experiences. For example, we both love going to orientations. However, there are some pretty big differences.
For example, I had an orientation today and Ben did not.
Which is sad, because I really do love going to orientations.
I do too. There's so many things to learn. And especially if I'm like, excited to do something, and then I get there and I'm like, "Oh, yeah, teach me everything. Orient me."
It also like you get paid, but you don't have to do anything. And they like, give you treats often. Like, here's a pamphlet and a candy bar that goes with it.
I did not get paid for today's orientation.
Oh.
It was free.
How was it?
It was pretty good. I liked it. It's for my internship for my grad program. So...
Like, my dream orientation would be like to get hired at Disney World and have like a 3 day orientation. It's actually called Disney U.
Alright? We're gonna move on quick. Cuz we'll get distracted real quick. We get Ben talking about Disney.
Oh my gosh. Anyway. Okay, so we would like to provide a variety of voices and perspectives. But today, we're joined by nobody.
And today we're talking about a pretty sensitive topic. And when we do that, sometimes we feel like it's better for it just to be us. And just so if anyone takes the heat it can be us.
Yeah, also, I was thinking about, like, the things I'm going to say, and how scary the things I say would have been to like, 22 year old me.
Yeah, definitely.
And I just want to, you know, say things like a sensitive way so like, 22 year old Ben wouldn't be freaked out.
Yeah. As far as credibility is concerned, we are not theologians. We're not religious or spiritual leaders. But we are same sex attracted. And we both spent a lot of time and effort seeking for God to change our sexual orientations. So it's maybe a little bit tricky. We're not trying to speak for God, but we're just gonna share some of our past experiences that have led us to healthier mental and emotional spaces.
Definitely. So as I was like, thinking out what I wanted to say today, I heard a quote recently, that was "A problem well defined is a problem half solved." And for me, I think the main problem with me being gay, and you know, all the issues of like, shame and depression, and like, wishing I was dead that came from that was this question like, Will God change
orientation? So if I were to find like, the problem that led to like most of my issues, it was, I believed that God was going to make me straight.
Yeah. Or at least I believed that I had to be straight in order to have a place with God.
Yes, exactly.
Like in order to be worthy, or good enough or righteous enough that there's something about me fundamentally, that needed to be changed. And I think part of that was that I had this belief that, like, all things are possible through Christ. And so like viewing it as some sort of like, spiritual or life defect, it just seems so obvious to me, that God would change my orientation, because that is what God does. Like he fixes spiritual defects.
Yeah. And like, and like going on with that, like, 1
7 that says, you know, God will prepare a way for us to
And I remember, my dad has apologized for this, like dozens live His commandments. I thought, "Well, God has of times, like dozens of times, so don't give hate to my dad. commanded me to be married to a woman, and therefore he will provide the way for that. And that includes changing my But he really heavily encouraged me to go to therapy, like two orientation." And, and so I went, and because I really believe that months after I came out to my parents. And I told him, I
Yeah. Yeah. didn't need to go to therapy to change my orientation. I said, God could fix me if you wanted to. And my dad has really bad eyesight. And he said, "Ben God could fix my eyesight but like, and like the question for me wasn't, like, like, "Can God nstead, he gave me glasses", which is actually a really lovely metaphor. So you're saying, you know, maybe God is going to change your orient tion through therapy.
change orientation?" It was like, "When is he going to do it?" And did you go to therapy?
I did. Yeah.
What, was it like a conversion therapist?
You should listen to "Should I go to therapy?" Because I talked about it there.
I know, but talk about it again. Give us some juice. Give us the details.
Yeah. Yeah. So it was a therapist at BYU at the counseling center there and like, you had to fill out like all these forms, like, like a stack of forms. And now it's all just electronic.
Like, so this was like, 17 years ago.
This was in 2008.
Thirteen years ago.
This was January, this was January 2008.
Okay.
And I had to answer all these questions about like, what was going on my life and then at the end, there was like, questions for additional comment. I said, I want to change the orientation. Like I wrote something like that. And so I got into the therapy room, like the therapist, like ignored all the papers I had like, filled out like these dozens of questionnaires and, and then he like looked at the paper where I'd like written that I wanted
to change my orientation. And he just like set the paper down nonchalantly and said, "Well, this is easy to fix." And I went twice. And he, he told me how to change my orientation. Basically, what he said was every time I got aroused I was just supposed to think of a woman. And he walked me through all the beautiful parts of a woman's body and told me whenever I got around to just think of those parts of a woman's body, and that would
change my orientation. And then I, I felt so uncomfortable that I made a follow up appointment, because I didn't know how to tell him that I couldn't go back. And then I left and called later and like, told the secretary to cancel my appointment. She said, "When do you want to reschedule?" I said, "Well, I don't know." And then I just never reschedules. So I just went twice.
You ghosted, your therapist.
I did ghost my therapist, which actually happens quite a bit.
Well, I'm glad you ghosted that therapist. Just a quick plug for BYU Psychological Services. It is not really like that anymore. I actually went there for my orientation as well and had a very, like, orientation affirming, faith affirming therapist that was not like that at all. I'm sorry you had that experience.
Yeah, same with me when I went like three years ago. So yeah, I mean, the person I talked to was like, old back then. I mean, he's long gone.
Well, the thing is, like, I felt gross when you were saying that. I just felt gross, because it is just kind of like not healthy. You know, it's, it's based on this defective idea. It's like, there's something wrong with you that needs to be fixed.
Yeah, Charlie sorry to interrupt, but like, I think that's like the root of like, the problem for me, like being like, my orientation was this defect that I had to fix. And so this question like, "Will God change my orientation?" like, for me, it was rooted in the fact that like, I was broken, and this part of me had to be fixed
Well, and that even goes into the way we talk about it. And like the vernacular, in this religious space is very focused on like struggle, like a struggle with same sex attraction or a temporary condition or something that you're working through. And that paints it in this light of this is something that needs to change, and also gives the hope that it will, and like plants a spiritual hope, that God will change it because it's wrong, you know?
Yeah. So when I was like, 25, I was like, in a good place emotionally. And I decided to write a book about being gay. I wouldn't have said gay back then. And I only wrote one page because I was like, 25 and what did I know, but the first page I made an analogy about how much I love Cinnabons. And I felt like for my entire life, I just was
gonna get carrots. And like, that's how I that's how I viewed things like, like, I want to live this life where I can have a Cinnabon, but instead, the only life I can live is this life, or I just get to eat carrots all the time. I just felt like I was never going to enjoy life.
Carrots are women? In our analogy?
Yeah.
I love carrots.
Well, I love Cinnabon. I eat carrots, because they're good for me. Yeah, I'd rather eat a Cinnabon
Anyway. Yeah, that's, that's sad. That's...
Yeah, well, so the reason I bring that up is like, I just kind of felt like I was doomed to a life of like, lesser happiness.
Yeah.
And it just like, wasn't a way that I was going to live. Like, like, it was like, I was gonna get a, like, the highest grade I could get in life, like happiness wise was like a C+. Like, I was going to pass the test. But I was like, gonna, like barely pass, because I was like, gonna barely make it through. But I wasn't going to be happy because of this problem I had.
Yeah. Yeah, I remember, I never went to like a real conversion therapist. But I would like look at pamphlets online in Google and like, did a lot of like psychological research about how to change my own orientation. And I would like practice conversion therapy on myself behind closed doors. And it was like, not good. It was, it was not healthy. It never made me feel good. I felt very on edge and disappointed all the time. I was always disappointed in myself because it never worked. Yeah.
Yeah.
I guess in this we're not really talking about conversion therapy, though. It's more this idea of like, spiritually God fixing you with the atonement.
Yeah. And, and it really, for me, like came down to this thing. Like, I felt like there's something that was broken and wrong with me, they needed to be fixed. And I remember having this, this epiphany one day where I was like, God answers my prayers in like miraculous ways. Like, I don't know what other people's experiences are like, but I'll like pray for something. And like, God answers my prayers, like in really
miraculous ways. And just like one example, I was when I was working in the Provo temple, I'd like I was having trouble making friends on my shift. And I was just like feeling kind of lonely there because like, I'll return like, recently returned missionaries, and like all old men, and it was like me, who was like, 33 and like, didn't have
peers. Yeah. And so one day, I was like, walking to the temple and I'm like, "God, I'm just kind of lonely at the temple can you help me make a friend?" And so I'm like changing like right after get in there. And the, the guy in the changing booth next to me is like, "Hey, what was your name again?" I said, "My name is Ben." And we started talking like, you should come over for dinner sometime. Like my family would love to get to
know you. I was like, "Oh my gosh, like I just said this prayer like five minutes ago. Now God's like, already given me a friend." So I have, I have those kinds of experiences all the time.
So God answers your prayers, but never answered this one particular prayer.
Correct. like not even a little. And so that made me wonder, you know, if God hears and answers my prayers, like why isn't he answering this prayer?
Yeah, well, maybe it's a challenge that you're just supposed to face in this life.
Could be. I don't think so.
I don't think so either. I was just, I was just playing along to see what you, like how would you respond to that though?
Like now?
Yeah. So because that's what's been told to me since I was like, forever, you know?
Yeah. I don't want to like put words in anyone else's mouth. Like if someone wants to like view this as like a trial or a struggle. You know, or whatever, like, I, I'm fine with that. For me, those words like trial, struggle, temptation, inclination were, like incredibly damaging to me.
A tendency.
Yes, like a tendency. And like they did like, like God had given me this thing I just like, had to learn to say no, and then I could be exalted. And that was just like, that just was so bad for my soul. Because it just like, once again, like made me feel inherently broken. And then once I started, like seeing my orientation, like not as a defect, but as a gift, like that
was such a freeing thing. And once I stopped trying to, trying to change it, I really saw how my orientation was, it was a gift and not something that was wrong with me.
For me, there was a lot of power in ownership. And that as I was looking at it that way, I felt like I was a victim of something. Like I identified, I guess, as dealing with feelings of same sex attraction. I put it as far away as possible from me because it was something bad. You know, it was like an illness or disease. And I didn't want to be defined by that. And as I kind of had the same kind of conclusion that you did, Ben, of this is part of me, this is a
gift. That's when I started identifying myself differently. I took on a more identity based label that felt like this was part of me and something to be honored and something I can move forward with, rather than run away from.
And you know, and I think like, I wrote about this in my book, but there's a line where I wrote, like, I spent so much time trying to change who I was that I missed out on being who I was.
Yeah.
I feel like my orientation is something that was designed for me.
That's beautiful.
And the reason that God didn't change me was because I'm not supposed to be changed.
I mentioned this in my book, it's in my first chapter of this experience I had, that was the first time that I really felt like I was created intentionally, and that this aspect of my identity is whole, and doesn't need to change. I was at the Washington DC temple praying. And it was one of the first times that I'd ever like, prayed in a way that wasn't rooted in this idea of "God, please change me." My prayer shifted, and it wasn't like, "I'm so sorry for who I am. I'm
so sorry for who I am. Please fix me." It was like, "Hey, if this is never going to change, let me know why and what I should do with it" and, and that's like a small shift, but it's also a pretty dramatic shift.
Yeah.
Of "Please change me" to "Okay, what should I do with this?" And as I said that prayer, I have one of the most
So, so what I'm hearing you say is like to use an analogy, transcendental beautiful spiritual experiences of my life. I would say the most. It was really something. It was so powerful. How much should I share? I'll share this experience was given to me I'll share with people. I had like visions, of, of my identity, of my soul, of who I am. And it was like this mixture of like,
imagery, and feeling. And part of that was, I don't know, I don't want to sound crazy, Ben, I don't but, and this is, you know, more deeply than I've shared, previously, but, but I saw myself in the premortal life, as me having this component of me and I felt that my heavenly parents knew that and understood it. And were okay
with it. Like, it wasn't an issue but, and I was sent to Earth at this time, not to, not for it to be like the challenge that I would overcome, but as something to develop my character, and provide ways to serve and provide ways to develop a faith in Jesus Christ. And I saw myself wanting, like wanting to come to earth as, a gay. And as I was thinking abou the premortal life and who I a now that kind of like took i away from this, like, this i like some curse that I was give
to this is a blessing. This i something I like. And then i also moved into the next lif where where I saw myself wit God as whole, as me. And it s weird, I don't really know h w to explain it because it wasn t so much focused on like, I m gay. But it was just like, th s is my makeup. This is y spiritual DNA. This is who I a . And I felt loved and held a d accepted and validated in tha like you kind of viewed your orientation, kind of like maybe something you've carried around.
And then you saw that it was like, actually like, part of your being.
Yeah, yeah, definitely.
What did that do for you?
It changed my entire life. I stopped hating myself. I became way less depressed, way less anxious, way more connected to God. And I also started giving more and serving more and opening up to where I could, like connect with other people.
And it, that really that experience was kind of like the, the catalyst in my, like even being on this podcast, like coming out in a way that was centered on trying to help people because I know what it feels like, what it felt like for me To be viewing myself through that other lens.
Yeah. I didn't have a moment like that. But I can think, I can think back like on the time of my life when things changed for me, like when I stopped saying same sex attraction or SSA, because that for me was like, if when I said I had same sex attraction that was, and I want to say, like, people can definitely self-define that way. But for me, it was like, there's this thing that I need to change. And for me, like starting to call myself gay was like, "Okay, I
tried to change. I can't. I'm just gonna, like thrive with what God's given me." And that was like, in my late 20s. And I just like, remember some things that happened around that time, just like having a crush on a guy and like, not feeling bad about it. I remember Josh and Lolly like wrote, theire coming out post. And I was like, "They're happy. They've been married for 10 years. Like, I can be gay and say I'm gay and
still get married." So it was like, I felt like there was like, all this whole, like, all these possibilities ahead of me.
You mentioned possibilities. And I was thinking about this in terms of like, having a soft heart, like a broken heart, a contrite spirit. And in the Scriptures, there's this phrase of like, softening your heart. And for a really long time, my prayers were said with a hard heart when it came to this aspect of who I am. Because I was only looking for one answer. And that time when I softened my heart, and I was really like, "Okay, God, like, guide me, I'm gonna open myself up to a lot of different
possibilities. And then trust that with faith and personal revelation, I can move forward on the path that's going to be right for me." And to me, that kind of represents looking back a softening of my heart. And the answer that I was, like, even like the possibility of answer that I thought I could get was opened. And then I was able to make healthier decisions.
Yeah.
Also, I was thinking about like, just like faith and the power of Jesus Christ in the healing power of Christ's atonement. And I used to think that the healing that I needed was, like a switch in orientation, but the healing that I really needed was just like, love for myself. Like, does that make sense?
Yeah. I mean, the way I've talked about in the past is
27 as like, "I've got this weakness. My weakness is being gay. And if I'm just, if I turn to Christ, and God will take away my weakness of being gay, and then make it a strength by like, making me straight." But that wasn't my weakness at all. Like, like, my weakness was like not trusting God in His plan. My weakness was this, this shame and self hatred that I felt. And then as I turned to God, like that shame went away. And that self hatred went away.
Yeah, like my heart needed to heal not my orientation.
Exactly. And actually, like, like, having that paradigm shift of like, I don't need to heal my orientation was like one of the huge things that really brought me to like a life where I was like, happy and thriving. And I can like picture 22 year old Ben, like in the closet hearing me say that, and Freaking out? Yeah freaking out, because, because all I wanted was to be straight. Like, I just wanted to live a normal life, like anything I could have done to change it, I would have done.
And the idea that it was going to stay with me for the rest of my life, would like, terrified me, I'm not sure terrified, like, is even a strong enough word. Like it like immobilized me with fear.
Well, like think of the perceived eternal consequences of that.
I remember, like, once I like started thinking about what was going on in my life, and I just, like, needed to talk about it. But I couldn't talk about because I was so afraid. Like, I like wanted to, like write about it. But I couldn't write about it in my journal, because then my kids would read it someday. And they would know their, their...
I stopped keeping a journal for that very reason.
So I had this secret journal that I like, hid. Like, it's this, I just like...
Say it.
It was like, so long ago, I just, it's just so weird to like, try and put myself back in those shoes.
Yeah.
Just like thinking about, I just was just like, so terrified. I just wanted to do anything I could, like, I'm just like, writing like, "God, I want to be good. Like, I want to be good. I'm trying to be good. Just like, please help me be good. Like, like, help me just live the life that I'm supposed to live." And...
And that's sad, Ben, because you're thinking that there's something inherently evil about you just because you exist.
Yeah. And I mean, that's not just me thinking that. I talked to young young kids all the time.
That's exactly how I felt.
Yeah. And people say that all the time, "Like, like, why is this an evil part of me? Like, why do I have this evil part of me? I just want to be good."
You know that analogy, it's like, I think it's, I don't want to, maybe I'm wrong, but I think it's Native American, like, lore. Or maybe it's just the story. Who knows? But it's like, there's these two wolves and there's like a good wolf and a bad wolf. And the one that lives is the one you feed. Right? And people are like "I don't want to feed the bad part of me. I don't want to accept this." And like you're just abusing yourself. You're not, not feeding a bad wolf. You're
just like hurting you. I also was thinking about Philippians
13 where it says I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me. And I was thinking about it today because that's like, what used to be like one of my mantra scriptures. Like I can do this and Christ is gonna strengthen me. And it says Christ who strengthens me. It doesn't say like Christ who changes me. Or Christ, who flips my identity. Like Christ strengthened me in an unforeseen way. He strengthened my testimony, my sense of self, my eternal view of who I am, and who I am to
become, and to serve. And when I think about like, like who I am, gosh, like, like now looking back, changing my orientation would have been the worst thing that could have happened to me. Like, I do not want that to happen. It, it would be horrible, because I would lose such an integral part of me. Like, I don't want that at all. And to be honest, I'm not even sure that God could change our orientation.
You know, I've wondered that as well. Like, let's say, I mean, can God like change our genders? Like, I mean, there's so much like, once again like, we're not theologians, and we're not like called to teach doctrine.
We're getting into some sticky space here.
Yeah, we're getting into some weeds here. But like, like, we all existed before we were spirits. Like we were all intelligences did intelligences have gender? Did they have orientation? Like, I don't know. So when our heavenly parents created us and made us spirits, like, do they like choose a gender for us? Did they, like choose an orientation for us? Or was it like, already there? Like, I don't know.
Yeah. Like, it's not like a learned characteristic. And it's not like some sort of like, bad habit or sin that can be changed. It just like, is. It just is. Even I used to, like, think about the resurrection. And I think it's an is an Alma 40, where it talks about like being restored, and like the body and the spirit will be in a perfect form.
Around there probably.
In that, that vicinity. And I used to like imagine myself being resurrected as a straight eternal being. And that gave me hope. When I think about it now, I'd actually be like, incredibly disappointed if that happened. I don't think it will. Because like I said, I feel like this is more of a, like an internal identity trait that I have. And I'm cool with it. Like, cool, I like who I am. I don't know. Like, again, I don't know if we can, like, predict what's going to happen in the
next life. Because you can't. But me personally, I don't really feel that that will be the case.
I reserve the right to change my mind on any of this, because I've changed my mind about it in the past. But you know, there were there's a lot of my life, most of my 20s where I thought that as soon as I was dead, I would be straight. Yeah. And I also tried it when I was your age when I was 27. That's what I thought, like, as soon as I was like, this was something that was happening in my mortal life, that would be gone once I
wasn't like, mortal anymore. And then when I was like dating Jordan, and like in love with Jordan. I was like, Jordan and I are going to be together for eternity. And we're going to be sealed together. And like I had worked it all out in my head of like, there in the Celestial kingdom, there are 3 degrees. And the top one is for straight people so that they can have kids for all eternity, which I don't really want to do anyway. And then tier two is for the gays who want to be sealed
together. And the bottom tiers are people who want to stay single. Like, that's really how I thought. And I was like that is for sure what's gonna happen. And then you know, things with Jordan ended, I just got to a place where was like, you know, I don't know what's going to happen in the next life. And right now, I don't really need to know. I don't need to know my orientation is going to be like an eternity. And there's a
2 that I really liked. It says, it says, "Beloved, now are we the children of God, and it does not yet appear what we shall be. But this we know that when he shall appear, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is." And what I like about that scripture is that it says, you know, what we know now is we're God's children. And we don't know what we're going to be like later. But we know that what matters is we want to be like
Jesus. And so like, that's what I try and focus on like, I've stopped caring about, you know, in the next life, am I going to be gay or straight. I mean, I have my opinions and assumptions. But that doesn't matter to me as much as like, "Am I becoming like Jesus Christ?"
Yeah.
Like if I become straight, but I'm not humble, then what does it matter? Like if I like, like, if I'm gay, and I don't have charity, like, what does it matter? You know?
Yeah, it's actually funny, like, like, to be completely honest. I was saying that. And that's the first time I've really said that in like, a more public. I don't know. Like, I've told people in private that I don't, that I think I'm gonna be like, gay forever. And I'm comfortable with that. But like, I don't know why it's like, so difficult to say that. Will you
Yeah. I mean, it, well... help me figure that out.
Like, okay, first of all, like, I don't want to be wrong. I don't want to like, give people, but, but at the same time, it feels like I'm not allowed to say that.
Yeah. Well...
And like, I believe it.
So like I said at the beginning, like, like, a problem well-defined as a problem half solved. And, you know, the problem I had is that I didn't see a place for gay Ben in eternity.
Yeah.
And I'm not sure that the, well, the way I've been taught that, you know, gay people fit or LGBTQ people fit into the plan of salvation, is that we're children of God, but this part of us goes away. And the way I've been taught the doctrine is that there isn't really room for LGBTQ people in an exalted world. So that's a problem. And because, you know, we don't know where we fit in. And so what that requires of us is that we have to have a lot of faith and hope for a future that we might
not even want. But that we have to trust that God is like good and that we won't end up with eternity that we, that God's like, like "Aha! Gotcha!"
"Aha! You're straight now. And here's a girl."
Yeah. But, but the truth is the way, the way like the celestial kingdom has been taught to me like there isn't room for gay people.
Yeah.
And I mean that there's room for Ben Schilaty. But Ben Schilaty is going to be married to a woman. That's the way it's been taught to me.
Okay. Okay.
And I don't know, that, that, that feels uncomfortable to me.
But definitely, it's definitely uncomfortable to me. But then I also think of like, this is an ongoing restoration. So like, like, think of all the unknowns. Like how do we even explain something eternal?
Right? So what is it in the past is like, I've lived all over the world and all over the western United States. I've lived in a bunch of different houses. And I've seen pictures of these all these places before I've gone. And every time I get there, it's different than I expected.
Yeah.
Like, it is super different. And like, I just have no idea what heaven is gonna look like, because it's going to be different than I imagine.
Yeah, well, and I also think, like, the way I got to where I am now is by asking God. And so I think if you're wondering if God's gonna change your orientation, you can ask. You know, and like I said, it, that's, that's differing from asking God to change your orientation, but just like being open to possibilities. And then once you feel a little bit more settled in like your identity, who knows, maybe first like, maybe for me it's eternal. For someone else it's not. I don't
really know. And I'm not going to try to like, give one sort of like cookie cutter answer for everyone. But like, if you really have a sincere desire, ask and you shall receive. Knock, and it shall be opened unto you. But I would kind of like caveat to try to do so with a soft heart, as I was saying, and be open to different options and kind of be willing to go into that, that misty space where you're not sure what the next steps look like.
Yeah.
Or else you're just gonna keep running into a wall.
Yeah. You know, I know, a lot of like, male gay friends are like, you know, I want to be married to women. Like, I want to have kids. Like, I want to have this traditional family life. I just, it's not something I'm sure I can do. And like, I think that's beautiful. Like, those desires are beautiful. That wasn't something I wanted. Like, I never really want to have kids or be married to a woman. I just like felt like I
was supposed to. And I just like wanted to have like a best friend that I lived with, like all the girls I dated. They were like my best friends and I just like, loved hanging out with them. But like the idea of like, actually being married to them. I remember like the girl I dated the longest. I remember just like, picturing our future together and I would just like, freak out and like, "I'll cross that bridge. When I come to it. I'll cross that bridge when I come to it." I would like
picture us like having a baby. I was like, "Oh my gosh, I can't do that. I can't do that." It just like scared me so much.
Well, and here's the deal. I don't necessarily believe that wanting to have kids and wanting a family equates to wanting to be straight.
Definitely. I think that's, I think that's accurate. I, my point was that there are a range of things that people want, in range like goals, like life and eternity goals that people have.
Yeah, and that's healthy. I think that's good.
I don't want to like be too harsh on the doctrine. But like, the problem for me really was that there's no room for me an exhaltation.
Yeah.
Like that was the real problem. And I remember like, the moment I like became okay with that was I was like doing sealings at the temple. And I was sealed, like, as a child by proxy. And some of the promises made in those, in that ordinance are the same as in the ceiling ordinance. I was like, "Okay, if I'm not married, like, I still get these sealing blessings." And that, like gave me a lot of
peace. And so I just kind of got to a place was like, you know, I don't know what my like future is going to look like in eternity. I don't know if I'm going to be straight in the next life. I don't know if I'm going to be gay. I don't know what orientations even going to look like. But like I'm sealed to my family. And right now, that's going to be enough for me.
I'm gonna share an experience and I hope this like I'm not trying to make a direct comparison with this. I'm just trying to like, explain a point. I watched a video the other day in one of my classes, it's Elder Renland, and he's talking about suicidal ideation and suicide. One of the things, like one of the points of the video is that there's kind of like an outdated or like, I think he is the word antiquated way of looking at things where people who die by suicide are cut off from certain
blessings in the eternities. And he said, that is wrong, that is absolutely not true. And then gave a more restored, spiritual, current view of the spirituality in the place and the love for people who have died by suicide. And removing from, from that topic, I was just thinking about this idea of like, old ways of thinking versus new ways of thinking and how there are certain people that didn't have a place in heaven that now have a place in heaven because it's
been revealed. And sometimes I think, I mean, like, good revelation comes from good information. And as we understand more and get to know a situation or a topic or an issue, we can receive better inspiration on that. And I think that explains like how the church is evolving right now. And I think suicide was one of those things where there just wasn't good information on it. And the inspiration was, was lacking in a certain sense.
We're not there anymore. And so just like that type of, I guess, revelatory process made me think about, like different types of people or identities that used to not really have a place in the plan of salvation, as presented by current church structure that now do. And I feel confident and hopeful that a similar thing will happen for
LGBTQ people. As there's better information and exposure and education, more inspiration will come that will give us a more robust, full picture of who we are, and how we are going to fit in God's eternal plan.
Yeah, you know, I was...
Is that okay to say?
You know, I think it's okay to say as long as we say...
Like, I really am not trying to like mirror those two things at all.
Yeah. Well, I mean, the truth is like, it would be very inappropriate for us to say like, what the church will or won't do what God will or won't teach us.
Exactly.
But obviously, there's further light and knowledge that God has to give us on the subject.
Yeah.
And so I think as long as we're like, looking for further light and knowledge, like we're, we're good. As long as we're not like telling God what to tell us.
I can't believe you just let me muddle through like, three minutes of weeds. And you were just like, there is further light and knowledge for us. Yes, yes. That Yeah, that's the one.
Because like, obviously, like, this is like, we don't know everything. And you I think about like the beautiful doctrines we have about like children who die when they're like when they're infants, which is like such a terrible tragedy that Joseph Smith and his wife experienced multiple times. And they were struggling with this and trying to like figure things out. And then Joseph got, like, all these beautiful revelations
like about that. And I think about how beautiful those revelations were like, like for my brother and my sister in law when their baby died.
Yeah.
And you know that. That's because like, they were actively thinking about this.
Yeah.
And you know, the reason I said no problem well-defined as a problem half solved, is because I'm not sure enough, people have been thinking about how hard it is for gay people to realize that they don't fit.
Yeah.
Like an eternity like, like, we don't fit. Like they have, no one has figured out how we fit except that we change our orientation. And, and I'm at a place spiritually and maturation wise, where I'm okay, not knowing. Like I'm okay with an ambiguous eternity. And a lot of people aren't there.
Yeah.
And I wasn't there for a long time. And it just caused a lot of pain and heartache. And Charlie, honestly, it sounds like you're not at a place where you're okay with ambiguity with that, either. You've decided, like you're at a place like right now you're settled that you're going to be gay in the in the next life.
I think so. Yeah. But that became because I was thinking about it. I was occupied by it. And like you were saying, I was thinking about it so much, and putting a lot of effort into figuring it out for me.
Yeah. Yeah. And I think that the church as a whole needs to be
You know? doing more effort this way. I gave a like a training on ministering to LGBTQ Latter-day Saints a couple years ago. And during the Q&A, this guy raised his hand, this was actually this last year. Well, it was right before the pandemic. And this guy raised his hand, this is exactly what he said, "Sorry to ask you a gotcha question, but isn't the atonement all about
change? And shouldn't you be, shouldn't the atonement be changing your orientation?" I told him a lot of the things I've said today, you know, it's not about being gay or straight it's about becoming like Jesus. And but, you know, I think that's just how so many people, to so many people it's been figured out. Like, this is a problem that will get fixed. Well, to the people that it's figured out for they're not the ones who are
affected by it. The ones who are affected by it are being ravaged spiritually.
Yeah.
Because people have it figured out that done. And that's why, like, the credibility that I gave us at the beginning of this episode was people who have been through this and like, we have to put stock in that credibility, because, like, who's gonna know whether God will change someone's orientation but the person who has been trying?
Yeah.
You know?
Can I define one more problem?
Please.
So the problem for me, I've seen this happen in a lot of other people's lives, is once I got to a place where like, felt settled about my orientation, I was like, I am done with this church, because they don't have a place for me.
Yeah.
And that's, that was the time when I was like, out. I was ready, I was ready to leave. I didn't leave but that's what happened.
Huge problem.
And, and I see that happening all the time. Like when someone learns to like, be okay with their orientation and like, not hate themselves for it, then they're out. It doesn't happen with everybody, but I see it happen a lot. And that's a problem. And if we can define that problem a little more then maybe we can start solving it.
I also think that sometimes the answer that I've gotten is like, "Well, God loves you and I love you." I'm like, "Okay, cool." You, you know, which I, which is a beautiful sentiment but like you were saying that there has to be like, I don't know.
Yeah, you know, I, I hear like church leaders say like really beautiful things like, like, "To our LGBTQ brothers and sisters, like stay faithful. Keep your covenants and all the blessings God has prepared for everyone else like will be yours one day." And when I hear that, I don't know what they're thinking, but I hear them saying, "You know, at some future date you'll be able to be married to an opposite sex spouse for eternity."
Well, that might be just when you're interpreting it as well.
It could be. Like, I don't know what they mean.
But how else are we supposed to interpret it? When that's what's been fed to us our entire lives?
That's what people tell me. They like, they tell me like like, "Ben you just be faithful, and you'll be married to a woman for eternity."
I like, like, you tell that to me and I'm like, I do not want that. And so again, and I don't know, I'm not trying to like rock people's worlds here. But it is, it rocked mine realizing that. Like, am I working towards an exaltation that I have, I want no part of? Like you like, you have to like, think critically about this. It gets complex.
Yeah. And I remember like having that same thought process where I'm like, do I even want to go to heaven?
And then in that case, it's like, well, cool. Like, who cares if I break my covenants, because that's an end goal that I don't want anyway. So, so I feel like that's why that happens, Ben. That's why when you, when you figure out, when you be, accept yourself, it's so easy to leave the church because like, "A" there's not a place for you and "B" you don't want what they're trying to sell. You
know? I don't want to make that seem like I don't want that, like I definitely do, but like, just my view has been expanded of what that could potentially look like for me. And that is something like I want to keep my covenants and stay close to Christ and move towards a heavenly future. I just wish more people would think about this in a way that doesn't have it all figured out. And that we can get some better information.
Yeah, I agree. You know, I told the story, you know, too many times about, you know, my friends Kevin and Allison getting, getting sealed, like the, the spiritual experience that I had there when, like, I was about ready to leave the church and, and while I was watching them get sealed, I just like, felt the strong impression that like, no matter what happened, I needed to be able to be in that place with those people forever. And you know, Kevin and Allison, like, they're
my family. And they're like, their families are my family. And like, the thing that God told me that like, kept me in the church was like, these relationships with these people are supposed to be eternal. And so even though I don't like know what exhaltation is gonna look like, I know who I want to be in heaven with. And like, I know, the relationships I have that I
want to be eternal. And I want to live my life in such a way that these people that I care about now are going to be, you know, part of me forever.
And I would say, I also want to live a fruitful life on Earth, that allows me to serve and grow and isn't based on some sort of belief that part of me is disgusting and wrong. Like I've, I'm so much happier and so much better since I've been able to be okay with, with who I am.
Yeah. You know, I kind of want to change the question for this episode.
Change it.
Instead of like, like, like, "Will God change orientation?" I think the better question is, like, "Will God make me like Jesus?" And like, for me, it has been so much more fruitful to try and think of, "Okay, I don't want to focus on whether I'm going to marry a person. I don't wanna focus on
like, that. I want to focus on like, Who am I going to become?" And as I've like, changed my focus to like, developing Christ-like attributes and acting like the Savior would and doing what he would do like, that is what has made my life fruitful. Like, for me, like, yes, it was incredibly important to like, stop hating myself because of my orientation. But the thing that like, really did it for me, was being like, "Okay, this is this is the structure of my life right now.
This is what my life like, I'm not going to marry a woman that just isn't gonna work. But I'm gonna do the best I can with
But you are so Pollyanna. It's amazing. As you what I got. And I'm going to become like Jesus while I do that." And that's when I started to thrive. And like, my life has been so good ever since. And, like, I've really loved my life, like so much. I know what I said just now might sound a little pollyannish. But like, were saying that I was like, "Ben, that's the perfect word for what I was thinking as you said it."
But like, it's still true. You know? Like, that's, it's still accurately describes my life.
Yeah.
And no one has to like that or do that. But like, that's, that's true to me.
Yeah. Well, when I think of this question, the original question, not the one that you made, Pollyanna, which was good. Yeah, that was a beautiful thing. Thank you for sharing that. I think, "Will, God change my orientation?"
Ben that question was terrible.
Will God change my orientation. No, I really don't believe so. And, and that's like, a, that's a cool answer that I know something more about myself. And I can move forward. And I feel just more hopeful with that, you know, and so I can't say what's gonna happen for anyone else. But I know for me, this is what I've received. And I am happy, like, I'm moving forward with that. And I like where I'm going.
Yeah. And when I asked like, when I asked myself that question, like, Will God change my orientation? I think like, right now, that is not important for me to know. Like, I am done asking that question because it was killing me. But like, if I'm going to like project what I imagine I don't think so. Like I don't I don't think he's going to even in the eternities. But, but I don't know. And I'm open to see like, what blessings God has for me that I don't can't even imagine yet.
Thank you. Ben as we're wrapping things up, I want to call back something you said that you like, reserve the right to change your mind. And I think that's so important. That's healthy. And I also want to like claim that right for myself. I reserve the right to change my mind. But thank you for like, I really liked this discussion between us. Because I feel like I know more about you. And I also feel like I know more about myself.
Yeah, definitely. And like, this is where I'm at at 37 and where you're at at 27. And who knows where I'll be at 47.
Yeah. Yeah, that's great.
Hopefully I'm still good looking.
Silver fox. Thank you for joining us today. If you have enjoyed this or other episodes, please consider leaving a review following us on Instagram or Facebook @q estionsfromthecloset, or shar ng this podcast with some ne you love. And as always, plea e remember that we do not repr sent the Church of Jesus Chri t of Latter-day Saints or Brig am Young University. We are not rying to be prescriptive or tell anyone what to think or what to do.
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