Welcome to Questions from the Closet. I'm Ben Schilaty.
And I'm Charlie Bird. Each episode we discuss a question that we commonly get asked as LGBTQ Latter-day Sa nts.
We're not trying to answer this question or come to a consensus but simply sharing our perspectives. Today's question is, why do you stay in the church?
Ben and I are not terribly diverse and we share many opinions and life experiences. For example, we have both been in Elders Quorum presidencies.
However, there are some pretty big differences. For example, I have been in five Elders Quorum presidencies, and Charlie's only been in one.
Have you ever been the president?
Yes. Yes, I was an EQP. Yeah in the singles ward in Everett,
EQP? where I'm from when I was like, 24. Nice. I'm always...
Actually, get this. I became Elders Quorum President then like a month later, I left to Europe for a month. That was terrible.
Oh, I don't think anyone cares. They probably rejoiced. But I bet you were a real self-righteous Elde s Quorum Presiden
Oh, at 24? Definitely. Yeah.
I was always like, FHE dad.
Oh, really, that's like my nightmare calling.
Oh, really, I love that I just one time we made butter. I just like bought some heavy whipping cream. And we made people shake in a jar and then I had butter for the week.
Part of being FHE dad, is you have to come up with something fun for a diverse group of people every week and it just seems daunting.
See, the problem for me is that I had to have a wife.
And I don't like Elders Quorum presidencies because you FHE mom. Get it? That's a joke. have to do ministering. And that is just so much work. And...
Everyone has to do that.
No, no, you have to like organize it. And I'm just not an organizer.
Yeah, I'm out.
Yeah. So all I've ever wanted to do was just teach gospel doctrine. And they have never called me to do it. So Bishop, if you're listening, I just want to be gospel doctrine, teacher for the rest of my life.
Oh, we usually provide a variety of voices and perspectives. But today is just going to be us. This is one of our most asked questions. Why we stay in the church?
Yeah. So today, we're joined by nobody, except for us, just
hopefully, the Spirit.
And some listeners. Yeah. So as I thought about this, like, why do I stay in the church? I remember for a long time, like in my 20s, I just like felt like I had to stay. And actually one of the first times I was like, really honest with God, and just like trying to figure out what my life should be. I'm just like, thinking that I had these two paths I could take where I either am in a same sex relationship and out of the church, or I'm in the church, and lonely and single for the
rest of my life. And I remember praying and telling God that if he needed me to be lonely, and single for the next 60 years, I was willing to do that, to show them how faithful I could be. And like, that's how I felt like I was choosing a hard, lonely
path to stay in the church. And so as I've grown and matured, like, instead of saying, stay in the church, I prefer to say, move forward in the church, because like, who do you tell to stay, you'd have to tell a dog this day you tell a child this day, like, it's all about, like, not moving forward? And I want to move forward. So like, how can I move forward in this organization? As I thought about even like, more deeply, I think that is even not quite where I
want to what I want to say. And more what I want to say is, you know, I want to be where God wants me to be. Like, I want to be a tool in his hand, like I want to be on his errand. And how can I do that? Like, in what way can I can I do God's will for me? And so I've kind of shifted from thinking, well, should I stay in the church to what path does God want me to be on?
That's really beautiful.
And like, how can I work in his vineyard? That's, that's what I want? That's the question. I feel like we should be asking.
Yeah, I feel like so many people feel forced to stay in the church. And I feel like every time you try to force yourself to do something, then that element of like, desire and truth and authenticity is lost.
And I think it's like, I have to stay in the church, I have to stay in the church that, at least for me, that put me in a really bad mindset, where I was only looking at all the bad things that were like I because I like to be completely honest, like, I have so many reasons to leave the church like, like, as a gay member of the church, it's really difficult. And I could, I could, and I can and I sometimes do just like, pick them out and
sort through them. But when I move it more to like, you were saying, Ben, this this, like, bigger mentality and take myself to a higher plane, and I look at my spirituality and my relationship with God, then I can find the value in this and figure out how I want to move forward. And this is where my path has taken me.
And it's interesting is you said, like, you have good reasons to leave. I have a number of friends who've left the church for a wide variety of reasons, whether it be like social issues, or historical things, or, like priesthood leaders doing inappropriate things, you know, like a wide variety of reasons. And I think any of us could find like a legitimate reason to leave the organization.
Well, I think the point of this episode isn't to tell other people that we are staying in the church so they should too. It's just like, we are genuinely asked by a lot of people often why we are willing to stay involved in an organization that discriminates against us and misunderstands us and has caused us a lot of pain. So today, we want to talk about those beautiful things that add value and meaning to our lives and our spirituality.
So one of my personal heroes is Jane Manning James. I actually have a picture for my office because I love her so much. She was an early convert to the church in Connecticut and an early black member of the church. And she and her family immigrated to Nauvoo. She was a close personal friend of Joseph
and Emma Smith. And then she immigrated West in 1847, and one of the first companies and was a close friend to Brigham Young, John Taylor, Wilford Woodruff, Lorenzo Snow and Joseph F. Smith, like the super stalwart woman. And she asked repeatedly to be sealed to her family, but was repeatedly told that she couldn't be because she was
black. And she actually wrote this like really beautiful letter to John Taylor explaining why she wanted, in like the 1880s, she explained why she wanted to be sealed to her family. And she explains why she she's like, I know, I can't go to the temple because of my race. And then she says, but as this is the dispensation of the fulness of times, is there no
blessing for me. And I just love her faith, because I feel like Jane had a lot of reasons to not believe and to step away, but she stayed true to what she knew. And that really inspires me to like live true to my convictions as well. So in the Doctrine and Covenants, it talks about how you know, to some people is given to know that Jesus is the Christ and other people, it's given to believe on their words. And I was given the gift to know like, I'm a knower.
And I don't know why I've been like, blessed with such a strong testimony. But I know a lot of LGBTQ members of the church who have been like mad or angry at God or have questioned God's existence. And I never have. Like, I don't recall a single moment where I was angry. It was always just like confusion, like, Okay, well, how does this work? Like, God and I are going to make this work. And even when I was like, wondering if the church was right place for me, I
never wondered if God existed. I was just wondering, like, where does God want me to be. And so I just feel like I've been given this gift to know. And that knowledge has like, been a powerful driver in my life.
I feel like for me, another gift has been like tools that have helped me know and figure out who God is, and my relationship with Christ. I realized about two years ago that I've always known how to pray. And I've always known how to search the Scriptures. And I've always had a religious like support system and structure around me. And as I like, meet with new people, or I guess on my mission, like one of the craziest things to me was the first time somebody didn't know
how to pray. And I was able to teach them. And that was a really beautiful experience. But I've been praying with my family since I was like a baby, you know. And that is, in part because of my membership in the church and the tools that I've been given, which allow me to, like, create a spiritual structure out myself and find truth.
I had a very similar upbringing. My parents were both converts, and they, like, my dad loves the Book of Mormon more than any person on the planet, like he loves the Book of Mormon, he's read it like more than 100 times. And when I was born, he says that like, within like the first hour, he helped me and taught me the plan of salvation, I think is really cute.
That is cute.
And, and there's this, there's this park by my parents house is called Forest Park, there's just a bunch of trees. And we would drive through all the time just to get to other parts of town. And when I was a kid, every time we drove through there, my dad would bear his testimony of like, God, Jesus, Joseph Smith, the Book of Mormon. And so my whole life like I was raised to just like, believe, and my parents were not the kind of parents like force
us to do things. Like I didn't have to get my Eagle Scout before I could drive. Like, I don't even have a single merit badge. We didn't have to go to seminary, like we just weren't forced to do things. But I saw my parents praying every day, I saw my dad read the scriptures every day. And that just like taught me all these things that I wanted to, like all these habits that I want to follow.
You mentioned the Book of Mormon, I also really love the Book of Mormon. And in the times that I've like most wanted to leave or been like dealing with the most doubt when I turned to the Book of Mormon, like somehow, it always gives me answers, always. And somehow it also has this way of like, helping me shed hatred and anger. It really does. And so I read the Book of Mormon every day, and I have ever since I was a child, I can't remember a time when I didn't read the Book of
Mormon every day. And I also pray, this is like, this is gonna be like, so cliche, like Primary, Sunday school, but like, reading the Book of Mormon and praying has grounded me and helped me look through a lot of the difficulties that have accompanied my church experience.
Yeah, yeah, I feel very similarly, like there was, I've told this story too many times.
But one of the times I was thinking about leaving the church, I remember just telling my parents everything that my mom told me that if I needed to leave the church and marry a man that he and I would always be part of the family and, and so I've spent a lot of time it's like trying to figure out what I was supposed to do when I remember opening up for some reason into the New Testament and Matthew, where it talks about how when Jesus is in the garden of Gethsemane and he
prays, he says, Father, if though be willing, let this cup pass from me, nevertheless, not my will, but Thine be done. And I was like, I want out of this too. Like, I want out of the tough thing that I've been asked to do. Like, I don't want to drink this cup, but like, what does God actually want me to do? And then there was like a footnote to that verse that was in the Book of Mormon. It was in Second Nephi 10. And it says to reconcile yourself to the will of God and not to the will of
the flesh. I was like, Well, what is God? Like, what is God offering me? Like, what is he asking me to do? And as I, I remember reading that and praying about that just like really feeling compelled to move forward within the church. And like that was a part of his vineyard that he wanted me to work in.
Yeah, I think for me, the cup that I thought I would have to drink the bitter cup, it looks a lot different than the one that I'm actually drinking. Does that make sense?
Yeah. What do you think you were supposed to drink?
Well, I always figured it'd be like, live along single life alone, and be sad forever. Or, like, put off yourself. And it's interesting, because like, I'm very happy. Like, I'm doing great. The cup that I'm drinking, like, the bitterness of the cup, a lot of times comes from like church policies in church membership. And so like, the bitterness isn't like accepting myself and being alone. It's like, as I like, follow revelation and move
forward I'm misunderstood. I think that's my better cup, about staying.
Yeah. You know, I had a very similar view of like, Okay, I'm just gonna hunker down, I'm gonna be lonely and sad for the rest of my life. But if I just keep it together, then I'll make it to the Celestial Kingdom. Like, that's how I thought life was gonna be. And it has not been like that at all. Like that summer I had in my parents house when I was 30. like trying to figure out like, should I stay
in the church or not? for so long, I felt like trapped in a doctrine and culture that didn't have a place for me, that I just didn't belong. So I just, I just felt trapped. And then when I read that verse, and started to actually like, pray and ponder, just like really seek God's will for me, I none of the things I did changed. Like, I always had a temple recommend. I'd always going to church, and I always prayed. I'd always read my scriptures. And then suddenly, those weren't a chore anymore.
They weren't just like something to check off, but is something that I wanted to do. And I did all the same things. But the reason I did them changed, and that made all the difference for me. And I went from being like, feeling trapped to just thriving, doing the things I'd done before, because my reason for doing them had changed.
I hope people can have these experiences. Because like, right now I'm thinking like, how can we tell people and get them to actually, like, believe that you don't have to be trapped. And I don't know how but but I, again, maybe we're just too much the same Ben. But in in a similar way like, it's interesting to look back. And, and honestly, this is still a journey, right? It's not like I've arrived in the church. I'm like, we we fight for this every
single day. But in so much of my like, gay experience, the church is the thing that was ruining me, and hurting me and causing me turmoil and angst and pain and anguish. But it was also the thing that saved me, because of how I knew how to look for
answers. And actually, like, go to the mountain and pray to God and ask real questions and search the scriptures without the parameters of like, current society, or what I thought was doctrine, you know, and just like really, say, like, God, who am I, and I'm looking for answers now. And then also the people around me like I've been surrounded by incredible loving, like service oriented family and friends, who have given me what I need. And that came in large part through my association with
the church. And so while it caused so much hurt, it also gave me the tools I needed to, like, come out, like, above the clouds, and get to that point, you were saying, beware, it's not a chore. It's like, I want to read the Book of Mormon because I need guidance, because I'm in a weird spot.
Yeah, you know, Charlie, you said something I want to see like you say a little more about this. You know, you said we'd like to fight for this every day. And honestly, I feel like most days I just feel like really happy with like my station in life and where I am and like, my role in the church, I'm mostly I'm pretty okay with I don't feel like I'm fighting every day. What do you feel?
Well, I agree with that. I also think that every day, there are like, reminders there. There is like, parts of me that other people don't accept within the church. And like, there are like policies that affect me and like, people are like, Oh, one day you'll be a bishop. And I'm like, No, I won't. Like I will never be called as a bishop because I'm gay. And like, there's little things like reminders like that all the time. And that's
difficult. That is like me making a conscious choice to be in an organization, where because of the way I was born, I will never have opportunities. And that's hard. That's really hard. So in that way, it is a fight.
Yeah, I see that. And I echo some of those same feelings. It just, I don't feel like it's like, constantly present in front of me.
Yeah. It's weird, because I feel like have the means like, actively. It's not like I'm choosing to stay in the church, but I'm just like, exercising my spirituality, and I'm here. Does that make sense?
Yeah, definitely.
Yeah. I'm just like choosing God. And I like want to serve and build God's kingdom. And one of the things I love about like even the church's name The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is that it is of Latter-day Saints, like it's Christ Church of saints, and I want to be a saint and I want to like, serve and and dedicate my time and talents to making this world a better place and helping people develop their faith in Christ. And it just feels right.
Yeah. You know what, when you're saying that something I've thought often is, you know, we've talked about like, the, like, "the church", quote, unquote, like, does these things, and the church is us, like you and me. We're the church, like the people I interact with every day, like, like, they're the church, and I feel like the boots on the ground, like the people I interact with, like really care about me and want me and yeah.
Yeah, when I think about, like, the future of the church, I'm looking at the rising generation right now. And I'm so proud of us, like, in the people, like, I guess what the Gen Z is that it? I guess technically I'm a millennial. And then there's Gen Z behind us, and like, there's some cool kids. And they are like rooting out racism. And they are like stopping misogyny, and they are fighting for equality. And they are loving their gay and transgender neighbors and
friends. And like, the culture I'm seeing developed in this, this younger generation is a lot different from the one in, like, past generations that I find very problematic and hurtful. And so that's another reason that it's, it's like, it's not like I'm looking through this dark tunnel. It's like I like see the light, like I see hope. And I see brightness and good people
You see, you see, like growth and progression.
Yeah. So to like, and like, I don't want to step away from that.
Yeah, definitely.
I was also thinking about like, so like, there's a ton of doctrinal reasons why I believe. And actually, before I go to my next point, I just want to share one. I was thinking about, like, the power of the priesthood, which is one of the things that sets our religion apart from others is the restoration of the priesthood. And I remembered a time when I was serving as a missionary. We were visiting this family and I think the the mom used to be a member of the church, but hadn't
gone for years. And she was married and had some kids. And I don't even really know how we ended up there. Probably the area book. And we knocked on the door. And someone was like screaming inside. And it just sounded very chaotic. And I was like, I don't know what's gonna happen. So she opens the door. And she was like, "Missionaries, can you help us?" And I was like, "Yeah, sure." And so her son, who's probably three or four years old, had smashed his
finger. And it was bleeding profusely, and like, the nail was already black. And he was just, he was screaming, and it was so sad. Like, I hate when kids get hurt. It's awful. But he was just like, really in a lot of pain. And the, she had a lot of kids and like, they were freaking out. And she was like, I need to go to the hospital,
but I don't have a car. And we were like on our bikes, you know, it's just like, "Can I take your car?" Like, yeah, sorry, like you couldn't anyway, but also like, this is a bike. Anyway, it was just like a really high stakes situation. And I was like, Can we give your son a blessing in this meantime, while you're trying to figure things out, and she she agreed. So my companion anointed his head with oil, and he was he was still like, screaming and crying, and like writhing in
pain. And then we switched, I put my hands on him, and then my companion followed suit on his head. And I started giving a blessing. And immediately just a calm, rush through the entire house. And as soon as I started speaking, this kid went quiet, and he stopped crying. And I gave a blessing. And I just like, felt like God, pouring through my veins, like like golden, godlike power, just like coming through me into this child. And it was it was dramatic, the change in the tone
and the atmosphere. And when I finished the blessing, the boy smiled and said, and like asked for a toy car. And his mom gave him the toy car. And he started playing with the toy car on the ground. And he was like, he was healed. And I was like, whoa looking at my hands, like, did I just do? Like, no, I didn't, God did. And there's just like, and that's just one of many like unmistakable testimony building like, God is here. And God is
with me experiences. And I want to put myself in a position where I can have those experiences and be a blessing to others, because I've never felt more like satisfied with my life.
Charlie I think that's a beautiful experience is just like seeing like, like the power of the priesthood is real. Like this is something that is real that you've experienced. And you know, I told the story peripherally on a previous episode about with my friend Heidi, who was like, we were good acquaintances and friends, but we had never even been to her house and she offered let me stay at her house during the
pandemic. And I just felt like this really obvious strong prompting to stay at her house, even though I've never even been there. And so one of my first nights staying at her house, she texted me like midnight and she was having a really tough night. And so I texted her back. And I offered to like five things in the text. I was like, we could watch a TV show, or we could do
this. And like in the middle, I said, I could give you a blessing, because I don't want to be, like, so presumptuous as to say, like, I can give you a blessing, right? And she's like, Yes, I would love a blessing. So I got dressed up. And then she came out the living room. And, and as I was giving her a blessing, I just felt so strongly to tell her that that God had sent me to be her be there with her that night, because he didn't want to be alone. And I was like, too
embarrassed to say it. But then, as soon as I was done giving the blessing, I'd like before she stood up, I was like, Heidi, I just, I felt prompted to, like God sent me here, so that you wouldn't have to be alone tonight. And we just like, hugged and you know, ever since then we've been incredibly close. And because God needed us to be together. And you know, Heidi has blessed my life in so many, so many ways since then. And it's a really powerful thing. Powerful, not even the
right word. Like, it's kind of the point of life to learn how to be led. And that's something I'm just like, constantly trying to figure out, I think about when, like, in my younger years, I was like, learning to hear God and like learning how God speaks to me. And as I like, learn that more and more, I just like get led into really wonderful, beautiful ways.
So there's a cultural aspect of the church that I really find distasteful.
Tell me more.
Well, no, that's not what I want to talk about. I want to talk about the cultural aspects that I love. And one of those is like the connectedness of this world. And I move around a lot. And I like to I like to be in different places. And there's been a couple times when I've moved to different cities, and kind of like, scrapped my life and started over. And like, I had no friends, I had nothing.
And the church offered a place where I could like, meet like-minded people, and like, have just like a good support system, right? Like, one time I was, I was stuck in in Washington, DC. And I hadn't found a place to live yet. And like, I didn't have enough money to be in a hotel. And I went to church, and I was just like, I'm homeless. And then actually, the elders quorum president was like, Well, my roommates out of town and like, we have an extra room, you can stay there for a
few days. And I did, and it was awesome. And I like trusted that that was gonna be okay. And like, little things like that have happened to me a lot.
I had a very similar story. I was traveling with some friends in Portugal. And we went to church on Sunday. And we were obviously out of towners. And there was a couple there. That was from England. That was like spending a year in Portugal. And we sat behind them. And they're like, you guys aren't from here are you are? Like no we're just visiting. And then we were like chatting for five minutes. Like, do you want to come over for lunch? Yeah, we're like, of
course. And so we chat for like five minutes, like, Oh, yeah. What are your names?
Yeah. Like, you can't buy that. You can't buy friendship like that, or, like, shared common experience. And just like someone of the same culture, like, like, these are my people. You know, one time I was in Turkey, and I was really lonely, because it's like, I don't know, I love it there. But like, I didn't speak the language. And I was there alone. And I went to church, and like, I went to church, and it felt like home. And I was like, This is my home, like, this is where
I belong. And then even just like, the church facilities that are offered to me, like sometimes when I'm sad, I'll just like, go to church, and I'll play on the piano or like, I'll play basketball in the gym with my buddies. And like, the church is a second home for me and always has been. And so like, I like that, and I don't want to leave my home, you know?
Yeah. Can I tell one story that might not relate?
Tell it. People are dying to know.
So I just had this goal that I was like, never gonna miss church, like never miss church. So all through my 20s
Is this when you were trying to be straight? and early 30s. I noticed--
No. I just like, like, when I got home from my mission I met so many people--
Strict obedience doesn't work.
Who like had like gone inactive, like, I am never gonna miss church for any reason. So I was just like, always went to church. So whenever I traveled, I always went to church. And so my mom and I were in Peru. Just on vacation. I'm sorry, we've been place dropping so much. Turkey, Peru, Portugal, Rome. I actually had a great time at church at Paris.
Me too. One of my best sacrament meetings was in Barcelona.
Oh yeah. I had a beautiful sacrament meeting in Barcelona too. Anyway.
Let's move to Barcelona.
This is a Peru story. So my mom and I were trying to go to church and there was like, a ward the met at 8am. And so we like, we took a taxi there. And we were we got there early, and we just like, waited and waited and no one showed up. And I was like, oh shoot churches in here today. And after like five minutes, I was like, no one's coming. And so we just decided to like give up and just go back to the hotel. So we like hail
the taxi. And we're like, going down the road and, and people dress up on Sunday morning in Peru, like everyone dresses up. There's one woman who looked like she was Mormon.
You are LDS.
So I said to the taxi driver, I was like, stop. And he stopped. And so we're like a block from this woman. And I get out of the taxi to like, run at her. And I was like, Are you a member of the church? And she said, Yes, and I am so late. And I said, Well, we've got to taxi cab come get in our taxi. Oh, the reason I recognized her I looked behind and she was holding one of those Teachings of the Prophets book.
Classic.
Yeah. And so we're like driving to church. And she's like, I was so worried I was gonna be late. I was so excited to study this today in church, I just, like, want to hold it. And like, that's how you saw me.
And she's so nice.
It was so great. So we got to church. And of course, it started late. So we made it on time. And, and, and so like, my mom and this woman are all like, we're all singing the hymns, and it's beautiful. And my mom and her of course, my mom doesn't speak Spanish. And so this woman is like telling her in Spanish, like what a miracle it was that we found her. And my mom at the same time is saying, like, what a miracle was that we that we found her so that we could make it to church. And like, we
needed to find each other. It's like this really like beautiful moment. My mom is like walking outside. It's like hugging and be like, did that happen? Like, did God really make sure that all three of us who wanted to get a church could make it? And he did.
I feel like I could leave the church and have a really good life. Like, I feel like I would be fine. And then I wouldn't like spin out. Like I really do. But I don't want to, like even when you're saying like singing the hymns, like I love singing the hymns. I love the music. I love. I don't like the scratchy walls. Okay, let me say this to everyone who's ever designing these burlap walls that can go but the rest of it i think is great. Maybe the green carpet.
Okay. Charlie has some design issues with the church.
I have some design issues with the church, actually, you know, at General Conference, when they announced like the new church logo, they're like, it'll be the name of the church, and then surrounded by like, a square for the four corners of something. And I didn't realize there was more. I was like that's it? They but a box around it? I was so mad. I was like, so mad. And then they put like Jesus on top of it. Oh, it's pretty.
Okay, then you're like less mad. It's okay Jesus is here.
Anyway, that's beside the point. What was I saying? Oh, yeah, like, it's funny, because like, I hate, and I'm going to use the word hate because really, I hate this idea that it's, I stay in the church, and I like I'm sad and lonely and depressed, or I leave the church and I like be full gay and do whatever I want. Like, can we please get over this? Because like, how do you drop something that is part of you.
Like, my character has been shaped by my membership in the church and like, I am a child of God that is part of my eternal identity.before and after. And now like that is just like, part of my soul. And I am gay. Like,
that's part of my soul. And that experience has shaped my life and the way I see the world and the things I like, and the things I do like so much of that, like both of them combined to create me and, and I'm not going to drop one of them just because someone wants me to like ewwww.
I wrote a blog post once and a friend who I hadn't seen in years, we'd been like friends when when I was like newly back to BYU after my mission. He was in my ward. And we were like Facebook friends, we hadn't talked in like eight years. And he messaged me, he like asked if he could call me. He's just super kind just like asking about my life. And he had, you know, stopped attending church didn't believe anymore, had even
removed his records. And he's like, he's like, Ben, just like live your life, like be gay and live your life. And and I said, Well, I mean, I liked being in the church, it makes me happy. And he said, then you are just a naturally happy person, you would be happy in any setting you were in, you don't need the church to be happy. And I think there is some...
I think that's true.
I think that's true. Like, like, I'm just a happy person. And I think that I would be happy in any situation, or at least, I mean, I would find the happiest. But still, like, I'm not in the church, because I feel like if I left, I would be sad. But because this is where I want to be.
Well, I feel like at the end of the day, there should be intrinsic motivation for your reason to do anything. And like if your reasons for like staying like if you're going to church, and you hate it, and you feel like everyone just wants you to stay like, like, maybe you need to reassess where you're at, and like figure out some things. But like, if you're intrinsically motivated, and there's like beautiful parts that you love, you can keep those no matter
what your life looks like. Like, if you are single, and celibate and staying in the church, that's great. And if you enter a relationship with someone, and are staying in the church, like that's great. And if you get married, and still like, stay as involved in church is they will let you that's great. And that doesn't mean there's not like current problems with culture, or like structure like there
are. Like, that's kind of why we started this podcast because there are like, serious issues with being a gay member of the church and listen to Episode 37 is there's a place for me in the church, if you're wondering more about those, but like those exist, but it's not like this dichotomous thing. You know, it's like so not black and white. It's ready to go. That was a Ben joke. I'm spending way too much time with you.
It was a solid joke.
Thanks. Well, and then I hear this a lot, and I believe it but also, I don't know what we'll see what I think about it, as I say, but like, I say that sometimes like if everyone who feels different leaves the church, then nothing will ever change. It'll just be a big echo chamber of people who are exactly the same, and I don't think God ever intended that. That is not Zion. Like one heart and one mind does not mean everybody looks and thinks and
acts the same. It means that we see each other and we show up for each other and care for each other, and listen to our experiences, and that we make changes and accommodations to where everyone is able to develop faith in Christ. And, and I'm gonna stay like, I would stay for that reason alone. I think like me personally, I would. And just everything else is just other great reasons that I like my association.
Yeah, definitely. Charlie, what are some of your spiritual practices that like, allow you to have communication with God, so you can know what he's guiding you to do?
Yeah, I think I can, I can pretty much boil it down to three, I read the scriptures every day, like I read the Book of Mormon every single day, and I do not miss and I make it a priority. And I pray morning and night, every single day, in addition to just like a general attitude of, I don't know, I feel like weird, I don't want to just be like, this is how spiritual I am, like this is what I do, take it or leave it.
I like to I like talk to God during the day, like, I'll be driving, I'll turn off the radio or my aux cord and be just be like, hey, God, like I'm driving. And I just like, try to keep an open communication. And then I listened to uplifting music. And I feel like, as I like the combination of those three things, which are all small, and don't take up much time, like make me better and put me in a position to where I'm able to receive revelation. And then like, yeah, like listen
to conference talks. And sometimes I drive past the temple or just sit on the grounds and just like put myself in like meditative spiritual scenarios where I can receive what God has for me. And I asked for it. I say, God, what do you have for me?
Yeah.
What about you?
You know, very similar things. I've tried to, you know, my most insincere prayers are y morning and evening prayers. ecause they are like the ones I'm
Like a checklist prayer?
And then like, a couple days ago, I started praying, I said, Hey, Siri.
Oh no!
I know! Oh geez. I'm very tired. I then one time I woke up early in the morning. And I was like, so like, I am not a morning person. I was like, rolled over And I was like, Hey there. Anyway, but my during the day prayers are usually much better. And I try to be more cognizant of just like being thankful when I like see
blessings in my life. Yeah, I remember one day, I was living in Tucson, and my dream job my whole life, while ever since I was like a teenager has been to be a Seminary Institute teacher, but I can't because I'm single, you have to be married to be a seminary teacher, like a full
I have problems with that everyone. time one and...
Me too but that's not the point of the story. So so I was hired to teach relief and seminary like as a student teacher, one semester in Tucson. And so I like my first day teaching in Tucson, I was like driving home. And I was like, oh, my gosh, this thing that I've always wanted, I get to do it for four months. And it's like, said a prayer of gratitude is like, felt this like immense wave of the spirit. Like, I know you wanted this, and I made it happen.
Ben you're like the most optimistic person I've ever met. I'd be like, I can't believe I finally got what I wanted. But I only get it for four months.
Well I mean the glass is half full.
I know. That's beautiful. Thanks for sharing that.
But another spiritual practice I have this really important to me is I write in my journal every night. Yeah. And sometimes it's just like, nothing much happened today. But I think what's important for me about that, is I'm just like a really active person. Like, I'm doing things, I'm with people. And it's like, the one time I
like slow down every day. And oftentimes, I'll just be like writing and then I'll just like, stop and like, lay on my bed and think it's like the time every day where I just like, take time to think like what
Retrospect.
Like, like, what happened today? What I want to have happen tomorrow, what is worth making a record of. And that has been super important for me, like I've received, I probably received communication from God more often when I'm writing my journal than any other time.
Well, and I think your journals been a blessing to a lot of people because you'd like directly quoted it in your book. And there's been times when we've been talking and like trying to figure something out, or how to say something and you're like, I have a journal entry from 2002. And I'm like, honestly, you killed it. Like, that's exactly what we need to say.
Actually, Kevin and Alison were dating they I was living with Kevin and Alison was one of my best friends. And so they would like wrote about their relationship in my journal. And they'd be they'd be like arguing outside be like, when did this happen? Like, oh, let me see it. I would like to tell them. I like recorded their relationship.
That's funny. Yeah. Well, and then there's like, so much of my adult is like religious experience is unlearning all the things that I thought made up a religious experience when I was a kid.
Like it was so like, stagnant and authoritarian the way I used to see everything, and and like you said, like my morning and evening prayers, like I do every day, but like my best prayers are when I just like, find a quiet space and speak out loud and just talk and I even like removing just like that I have to say thees and thoughs and do it certain way, like when I'm just like communicating with God and like, just like connecting in the way that I feel there, that's when like, really amazing
things happen.
Yeah. Can I place drop again? Yeah, I was in Germany one winter. And my friend I was chatting with is like, like gone off to some other city. We were like, separated for a couple days. And it was a Sunday and it's like, went on a walk. I was just like listening to music on my iPod. And I was like, all by myself, like, not in a forest, but like, on this like foresty rode. And like some small town Germany. I just like started singing. I was like, because no
one was around. And I was like, I feel like praying, like, thanking God was like, beautiful day. And it just, like, felt so good. Just and I was like, prayed out loud, like walking down a snowy road in Germany. Yeah, it was really beautiful.
And like, how do you leave that? How do you leave yourself? You know? And so it's not like, why do you stay in the church? It's like, I am me. And this is who I am, you know? And, yeah, that's nice. That's pretty.
Yeah. And I think this goes back to I said, the beginning, you know, it's not about like, there's like this corral that I have to make sure I'm within. It's like, Where am I being guided to go? And I just can't imagine a life where I'm not living the teachings of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and actively engaged in it. Because like, that's where I constantly feel called to go. Yeah. So when I was doing my Master's in social work at BYU, I was a temple
worker at the Provo temple. And I did not have time to be a temple worker. Actually, I my dad is very pragmatic. And they just changed the rule that single men over 30 could be temple workers. Right before I moved to Provo. I was like, Dad, should I be a temple worker? I thought he was gonna say No. I thought he'd say Ben, you don't have time. You can do it later in life. But listen to what my dad said, he said, Ben, God can make time elastic if he needs
to. You don't have time to not work in the temple.
Oh, Ben got a time turner.
I gotta tell ya, I was just very faithful of him to give me a time turner. So so I was I was in a full time master's program, I was teaching two Spanish classes. And I was also actively engaged in the LGBTQ working groups, I was really busy.
You were busy.
And so like, every Tuesday, I would like go to the temple for my temple shift. And I would think I don't have to do this, I need to quit. And then something would happen where I was like, I was just like, no, like, I know, I have to be here. Like, I need to be in the temple every week. And I was like, leave with like, my shoulder squared, just like with a clear head, like ready to move forward. And I remember like, a couple very specific moments, sometimes I would have
some downtime. They have like a study room in the basement. I would just like sit there like in the study room, like by myself, like no one's there, like alone in the temple, like read the scriptures. And it was like heaven opened up and just like, I just like, felt God so strongly. And I remember one time I was working, doing initiatories and the initiatory booths are like super boring. Like, there's nothing in there, very plain. There's nothing like a set of scriptures in there.
And there were no patrons, I just like sitting there. It's like sitting in its initiatory booth with like, nothing to do. I was gonna be there for like, probably a good 20 minutes by myself. And I was like, This is so stupid. Like, I'm just wasting my time here. I don't have anything to do or read. And I was like, I'm in the house of God. Like I can commune with God right now. I just had like this
really heartfelt prayer. I just like felt God, they're so strongly and, you know, as painful as sometimes church has been, like, I can't deny that, like, this is where I feel God.
Yeah. Yeah, in some ways, I feel like God has given me an increased capacity to sit in conflicting space. And for all the times that it just like, crunches against me and provides friction and, and just like drags me down. There are these beautiful moments where the heavens just open and I feel like a beam of light connecting
to me. And I don't, I don't really know if I have a point in that, other than to just say that, like, I think sometimes people expect, like, interaction with the church to be like, always 100% and perfect, and like, forever fulfilling and easy. But for me, that has not been my experience at all. And I've had some really lows, but I've also had some really beautiful highs and that like that's almost even a gospel principle to like, like, you have to know the bitter to know
the sweet. And, and so and in some ways, like as much as things bother me and as much as like I would love for like, real empirical change. There are things that like, ground me here and inspire me and make me a better person.
I think what I'm hearing you say is, and I feel this, like the church makes me a better person. But not only that, but it like, provides this vehicle for me to like, serve other people and help them be better too.
Yeah.
I mean, honestly, like, sometimes church is just boring. But that, but then sometimes it's just like, so transformative.
And even the boring is like fun like there's like connections and like jokes you can make about your self righteous Elders Quorum President named Ben Schilaty.
I'm sure no one ever did that.
Just kidding. Don't gossip at church. But if you are going to gossip at church, make sure I know the gossip because I love to know what's going on.
Accurate.
I feel like we're losing it but I don't know. I had a weird thought, even the hard things about going to church for me have like, forced me to action and made me like think critically and push me further. So like, I feel like in a lot of ways I have been able to, most often with the help of others, like, take that friction or that...
Tension?
...tension, and like let it propel me further. It's like flicking a rubber band almost. And like I keep having experiences like that, that make me grow and make me learn how to connect with people or like, alter my language so I know how to meet someone on their level. And like, there's just a lot of like, like, this is the vehicle where I learn most, and this is the system that I operate in.
And this system, like, the good and the bad, and the scary, and the ugly, and the beautiful parts of this system all like teach me how to interact with systems. And that's nice, you know?
That's beautiful.
So Ben, why do you stay in the church?
I mean, just to be very concise, I stay in the church, because I feel like this is where God is calling me to be like, this is where he is calling me to work in his vineyard. And as I have sought revelation on where I should be and how I should live, I have felt invited repeatedly, to live within the teachings of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and to actively participate in it. And I have, in my life, as I have done that has become incredibly beautiful.
That's nice.
One thing I've learned, we talked about personal revelation a lot is, you know, I feel very called to stay in the church and to move forward in the church and to work in this part of the vineyard. But I don't want to say what anyone else should do. I just want everyone to seek their own personal revelation and do the thing that works for them. And I'm doing the thing that works for me. And so I wouldn't want anyone to
criticize me for my choices. And I'm not going to criticize anyone because of theirs.
Yeah, that's a really nice point. I remember my senior year in seminary, we watched this video, and I'm not trying to make direct comparisons here. But I just I'm remembering this and recalling it. So I feel like I'll share. But we are watching this video, you know, there's like old seminary videos like so 80s?
They were new when I was in seminary.
I bet you liked them. They are so lame. Okay, we just lost so many so many listeners with that. I'm watching one of these videos, and it was about saints in Africa, prior to the 1978 official declaration 2 is that correct? Check me on my history. And the there was an interview with this, this man who was just like, so faithful, and so believing. And he's like, I'm staying because this is where God is. And this is where I want to be. And I remember watching that and thinking, I
would never do that. I was just like, I would never do it. Like, I would never have that much faith. I could never overlook being misunderstood that way or like not allowed to fully participate because of something out of my control. I was like, I would never do that. And then fast forward 10 years, I'm doing that. Like, that's where I am. And I don't know if I have like, a perfect answer for why I'm staying in the church, other than like this last hour or so
that we've been talking. But it's not something that like, I take lightly, because like, I wouldn't do that if there wasn't a reason, you know, like, I wouldn't be here if I wasn't finding value. And if I didn't like feel God here, and honestly, I don't know what's gonna happen in the future. But I know that this is where I'm supposed to be right now. And I feel like whole with that decision. Like I feel good about that decision. And, and that's why I try to work so hard in this vineyard.
As you're talking, I was thinking, you know, stay in the church. It's kind of when we say like, the church is true. Like, what does that mean? Like? Let's unpack that a little bit. Yeah. And I think as I think about like, you know, why do I stay in the church? Like, why do I study the Scriptures? Why do I study the words of modern prophets? Why do I take the sacrament? Why do I go to the temple? You know, why do I do ministering? Like,
why do I magnify my calling? You know, why do I ask for and give priesthood blessings? You know, like, why do we do all these things like, like makeup being a Latter-day Saint? And it's just like, one of the things Joseph Smith said, he said, like, like, "Mormonism tastes good to me." Like, it really tastes good to me, too.
Well, I feel like we should probably wrap up. We've been going for a long time.
Yeah.
Our episodes, like, maybe like, give us feedback. I don't know. Ben will read your emails. Like, is it okay, because we like we used to try to keep our episodes to like 30 minutes, but now they're always like, 45 minutes, an hour. This one's like over an hour, I'm pretty sure.
Oops.
But we're I don't think I would cut anything. I like it all. And also speaking of feedback, like, we are two dudes in a basement, like doing everything we can to work in the vineyard like Ben was saying and to try to like expand hearts and reach people. And we really appreciate everyone who shares our episodes and helps us grow this this project that's so dear to us. And so if if you liked this, like, share it, please.
This podcast honestly is one of the ways I felt prompted to work in the vineyard.
Yeah.
And it really means a lot to me when people listen and share if they feel if they want to.
So thank you. Thank you to everyone.
Yeah, if you made it this far, thanks.
Thank you for joining us today. If you have enjoyed this or other episodes, please consider leaving a review, following us on Instagram or Facebook at questions from the closet, or sharing this podcast with someone you love. And as always, please remember that we do not represent the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints or Brigham Young University. We are not trying to be prescriptive or tell anyone what to think or what to do.
You are two perspectives and there are many, many more, we encourage you to listen to other voices and hear a wide variety of experiences. If you would like to submit a question or share a comment about today's episode, you can email us at questionsfromthecloset@gmail.com. Until next time,