What should my pronouns be?

time. You know, and I think that's easier, perhaps easier to, for other people to understand. So you would say like saying, man or woman, you find yourself in a space that's much more complex than just those two binaries? Yes, I identify more as a woman than as a man, but it's more, there's more wiggle room and space. I'm definitely not day to day life, saying, Oh, I'm a man and feel like a man today. You know, I definitely identify solidly in one side of if you are looking at it as a spectrum.

But the, it's that pull plus some more...

maybe this is true about me. But I didn't have a grasp on it or what it meant. And I felt it early on more non-binary, not identifying as a woman. So I initially thought, well, maybe I should use they/them pronouns, but then later, there was sort of, I guess some gender euphoria, I suppose, thinking of myself as a woman and having this sort of wiggle room. So then I decided for both, because, you know, I just like how it felt when people used she/her/hers pronouns for me.

And that I thought it was kind of easier to describe my situation. That way. That's how I decided. So Marina you used an interesting term gender euphoria.

that I would go by Marina. And that's a lot more fulfilling euphoric to me. And I feel that it's the same thing with labels too. Like, I don't, I don't think it has to be something you necessarily pick once and stick with it. You know, if you ever feel the need to change. Yeah. And I think that's, a that's a really gracious way to look at yourself, and everyone else, like we're all trying to figure out who we are and learning things about ourselves and what, what feels right and

what fits best. As we've been asking these questions I've been thinking about if someone said, Ben, when did you choose to be gay? Or like, when did you decide you were gay? And those questions feel a little abrasive to me.

I think if it's just one on one, or you know, in a smaller group, more intimate setting, I don't think that it's a rude question. I think a lot of the times trans people are thinking about this often and interested in it. So I think in the, you know, in this case, they might, you know, we might think, Oh, it's cool, you know, they want to know about me, right? What does it feel like when someone talks about you using the wrong pronoun?

Shocking. It's kind of a jolt. I can tell when people are making an honest mistake. And when they are trying to be malicious about it. When people mess up it's jarring and jolting and can be frustrating because it feels like they're not taking me seriously, or my identity, or my feelings about myself, my reality. I can usually point out, hey, you know, he misgendered me or they will catch themselves. And we can just move on, you know, quickly, we correct, correct it and move

on. What's hard for me is when we kind of stay in that moment, for too long, where they feel the need to like really apologize, like it's this giant thing. Like it is this shocking thing that bothers me but what bothers me more is the whole moment. You know, it's not necessarily that it happened or it's, it's staying In that

awkward space. So then they if people kind of feel the need to really apologize and make it this giant thing it feels to me like, somehow I have done something wrong, you know, when I haven't, you know, because it's like, Ah, now I have to, you know, I have to forgive this person, right, of this thing that I don't think should be that big of a deal. Yeah, I remember, Marina at one time, I was having dinner at your parents house. And I remember your, your mom

misgendered you. And I just remembered seeing your incredible graciousness with that. I think I even did that same night. And you were just always really gracious and I and thank you for for sharing that, that we don't need to make these big apologies or it's just don't live in that moment. It's a mistake for sure. Let's move on.

of normality. Like I just a lot of the trans experience is about trying to achieve normality in our lives. You know, whether it feels like everything is kind of upended and weird. And there's o many things in our way, and hings that are hard and ifficult. And so when something s just normal, and it feels ike I can have a normal day, ou know, it's wonderful. You know, I don't know where

it's like to be misgendered. I think the closest parallel I can find is, when I was on my mission, I was Elder Schilaty. Every once in a while someone would, you know, want to know what my first name was? And I would sometimes tell them, and they were like, insist on calling me by my first name. I'm like, No, no, no, no, no, like, call me Elder Schilaty. And then when I got home and people that I like know and love called me, Ben. I hadn't been called Ben

for two years. It just like felt like home. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I completely understand that too. Yeah. I'm kind of trying to think back on my first exposure to the trans community. And it was around the same time I started getting involved in like, LGBTQ things. So kind of like, as I was coming out, I was meeting more people and gaining more education, and exposure to different walks of life and different people. And I remember going to this conference once.

And we had to write our names on like, a name tag, and then put our pronouns on it. And initially, I was like, Why? I was like, what? That's, that's weird. I've never had to do this before. I was like, okay, whatever. Like he/him/his, it's kind of obvious. You know, that's kind of the mindset I was in. I was thinking about that

experience. And then at the same time, as we were preparing for this episode, I thought about once when I was at BYU, and it was before I'd come out, and I was scared, I felt unsure of myself. And I was walking by just down the hallway. And I saw outside of one of the professor's offices, she'd put like a little rainbow sticker that said, safe space. And I just really needed to talk to someone. So I knocked on her door. And she opened it up and was like, Hi, come in, strange

student. And I sat down with her. And I was like, I saw your sticker. I'm gay. And I just kind of like, unloaded on her. And I really needed that experience. And we talked and her doing that one, like, seemingly not a big deal thing, really had an influence on the way I felt accepted. And the way that I felt like I really did

have a safe space. And I kind of was drawing a parallel between those two things of just me, perhaps at this conference, having my pronouns written underneath my name, gave someone else a safe space and made them feel like you're welcome here. We want to know more about you. You're not in any danger. And we're glad you're here. As I thought about it that way. I was like, really grateful that like, a couple years ago, me was like, You know what, even though I think this is weird, I will put

these pronouns on. And I think if we can all have that mindset going forward, is, like even if something's you know, foreign or feels weird, or you don't really know why it's important, as we realize that it is important to somebody else, to somebody else, then we can just build a better community.

So I think, what the expectation should be is that when we introduce ourselves, you know, allies should totally pronoun, you know, like, like, we should just normalize the practice of giving pronouns out, right. But sometimes, you know, I've been in situations where it's, like, weird, and I don't necessarily feel safe, or, and it would feel weird in that situation to kind of to out myself, right. So yeah, I don't know, I'm of two minds about it. You know?

That's tricky. Like, like, let's normalize this experience of introducing ourselves with our pronouns. Then if we're requiring that of people, then you're putting them in a position where they have decided they're gonna be out in that moment.

person pronouns. And so when I'm using third person pronouns, it's usually when I'm talking about the person and not to the person, so they often have no idea that I'm using the correct pronouns or not. As I've gotten to know the trans community more, I've become more aware of the respect that it shows to use someone's preferred pronouns, even when they're not in the room. Yes. Sometimes, you know, in my situation, until very recently, I was not out, but I was out

with particular people. So in those situations, I would have conversations, one on one with people, and they would come to me and ask me, you know, what pronoun should I use? What should I, you know, should I tell, should I tell people, you know, should I use these pronouns when I'm talking about you? In certain situations I would say no, like, I think it's just good for you to know who I am. So we can talk. So we can have this space, this friendship, this connection,

right? But I don't think that's necessarily something that we need to share with the world, right? But now, I'm more out. So it's less of, in my case now, it's less of a big deal. I would just, rather than having to have the conversation with every single person coming out constantly, you know, if people can just say, "Oh, yeah, you know, Marina, she's doing great", right? That is this very nice thing for me.

What would you say to someone who, who, because their belief system, they believe that there are two genders, there's male and female, and your gender is, is congruent with your sex assigned at birth? You know, what would you say to someone who believes that way? Who is wondering, well, would it be against my beliefs if I, if I use a trans person's preferred pronouns?

When I think about Jesus Christ, I think about a man, a person, the Son of God, right, who was just kind and loving and understanding of all people, right, no matter who they were, what they, what they did, you know? He was not spending his time with the most educated, the most wealthy, you know, the people, the kind of things we prioritize here on Earth, right? I think that Jesus would use the right pronouns. Like that's just honestly, that is, I mean, that's my own sort of, warm,

fuzzy feeling about it. And this, the way I have felt God affirming my gender. So I don't feel like it's incongruous, what we should prioritize as being kind and loving, to all people. Right? You know, and once again, this isn't, these aren't parallels but but I remember when President Nelson asked us to stop using the term Mormon and Mormon church and say, members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and Latter-day Saints, and there are a lot of people who don't think

we're Christians. And here we're saying, call us members of the Church of Jesus Christ. And that might be, that might not fit with how they view us. I remember a number, a number of my friends who aren't members of the church started using the term Latter-day Saint because I said, you know, I'm referring to myself as a Latter-day saint now, and not as a Mormon. And it just, it was just really meaningful to me, when people were willing to change how I labeled myself, because I had asked them to.

so much more wordier. And, again, like, I don't want to make a direct parallel, because you can't, but in a way, like, if it's harder to use the correct pronouns, you have to think about it more. Like, it means you're doing something meaningful for that person, and you're doing a good thing. And I think it's really amazing. Like, that's what charity is right giving of ourselves, and going the extra mile, to accommodate, to love, to show support and respect for another person.

As a gay person, I see evidence in my daily life that I don't fit in, right, that there's things about me that go against the grain, that provide friction for people, that other people don't sit well with. And I think, as a trans person, there must be so much more of that. Right? Like it's everywhere. And because I'm thinking about even the way you are talked to and talked about, can either connote a sense of acceptance or

rejection. I was recently going through like, suicide rates for LGBTQ individuals, and comparing, you know, gay males versus bisexual females, and transgender males. And almost every study, in every case, transgender individuals have a higher risk of depression, and anxiety and suicide. And to me, it just kind of makes sense, because there's so much social pressure, and social messaging that says, You don't belong here

you don't fit in. And so just the simple act of using your words, using a correct pronoun, to bring someone into your fold to say, "You can be on my team. You can sit next to me. We can be together." Like think of what that could do to someone who maybe is struggling with some of these really difficult feelings of depression and loneliness and

anxiety. And to just use something simple as to say he, or she, instead of he or she, or them, and you know, just a simple pronoun can make a huge difference in someone's seeing that they have space.

use any pronouns you want. I guess just as a final message to people who are listening, if you are questioning your identity, questioning if you should be using different pronouns, know that you are valid and loved and that it's a process. It's not something that you immediately try once and are perfect at and understand completely. It's

always a process. And I think it's important to find joy in the process of finding yourself out and realizing that you've taken steps forward toward a better you. And Marina as we've been talking, I'm just realizing my, my cisgender privilege that I have never even considered my pronouns are, because everything just fits.