What's it like to be transgender? (Trans 101)

Welcome to questions from the closet. I'm Charlie Bird

And I Ben Schilaty. Each episode we discuss a question that we commonly get asked as LGBTQ Latter-day Saints.

We are not trying to answer this question or come to a consensus but simply sharing our perspectives. Today's question is, what is it like to be transgender? Ben and I are not terribly diverse, and we share many opinions and life experiences. For example, neither of us owns a television.

I actually have never owned my own television.

I also have not

Yeah, I do watch a lot of Netflix on my computer. However, there are some pretty big differences. For example, even though he doesn't have one, Charlie is always on TV. And I have never been on TV. But I do watch a lot of TV. I watched a lot of TV as a child because it rains in Washington. So I would sit inside and watch TV.

I like to be on TV.

I think I've seen every episode of "Saved by the Bell" at least five times. Anyway,

We would like to provide a variety of voices and perspectives on our show. So today, we're joined by Ann.

Hello. Thanks for having me.

Welcome Ann. So let's start off by by talking about what the word "transgender" means. Do you want to tell us what it means, like the difference in transgender and cisgender?

Well, transgender generally means a person whose gender identity or the gender that they envision themselves does not align with the sex that they were assigned at birth. Whereas cisgender is, is where everything matches up there--your gender identity, how you feel matches with your sex assigned at birth.

Okay, so being cisgender would be a more common experience.

Yes.

Where the sex assigned at birth is how you identify and how you feel.

Exactly.

Okay. And Charlie and I we're not trans. But since we're part of the LGBTQ..

You're cisgender.

We're cisgender, yes, yeah. And, but we have get asked about what it's like to be trans all the time. And I feel inadequate doing that, like, answer a lot of those questions.

Yeah, I think it's important to realize that gender identity is not the same as sexual orientation. They're two very different things. And someone's gender does not determine their sexual orientation.

Exactly. Exactly. Gender identity, your gender is who you are. And the sexual orientation is who you love, who you're attracted to. So very different. If any of you listeners want to Google "Gender-bread Person." Have you seen that?

Of course, I've seen the "Gender-bread Person."

Of course.

I've used it as a tool many times in teaching.

I have not...

Good for you. Charlie, you need to look it up. Okay. goldstar. For Ben,

He's always one step ahead.

Yeah. It's an image that you'll easily find online that shows the difference between gender identity, sexual orientation, sex assigned at birth, and your presentation, meaning how the world sees you.

And I think it's easy, easier for people who identify as cisgender, heterosexual to under... maybe picture the lesbian and gay experience, because they know what it's like to feel attracted to someone, and to talk about those feelings. So that they can say, "Well, oh, well, if I'm attracted to women, then they're just attracted to men." And that's kind of an easier thing. That kind of easy, easy to envision, but we don't often think about our gender identity.

Yeah, I would say, the majority of cisgender individuals, you two, rarely think about your gender identity. I'm assuming your gender identity is male.

Yeah, because you've heard my voice.

It's definitely deep and sexy Ben. But for a transgender individual, they are constantly thinking about their gender identity. And there was a talk by a General Authority awhile ago, I think they were talking about, well trying to explain what salt tastes like to someone who's never tasted salt, and how difficult that is for someone to grasp, really grasp what it what it tastes like.

And I think that's an important point. As much as we as people who are cisgender trying to understand the trans experiences, we're trying to empathize and walk in your shoes. We're not gonna know what it's like, because we're not you.

Exactly.

And obviously, you speak for all transgender people.

And that's a NO.

Okay.

A really strong, hard No. One transgender person's story could be very different from another person and their path and their experiences. While we all have some similarities in our stories are very unique.

Well, we all are very glad you're here and we're excited to get to know a little bit more about your experience.

Thanks for having me. I'm glad to be here.

And Charlie's worried that he's going to say something rude or offensive on accident.

I promise you, you don't need to worry about that with me. I like it when people ask me questions when they're sincere about it because I want people to understand.

And so Ann, help us understand when you first started to realize that the gender you were assigned at birth didn't really match how you felt?

Well, my earliest memory was probably five or six, I didn't quite have the vocabulary to describe what what I was experiencing, but I knew something was about me was different. Both my dad and my grandpa, they were very manly men, tough guys. And you know, boys don't cry, that type of thing. So I quickly learned that the way I was different was not okay. I, you know, did that, you know, pray, you know, take this away make me just like all the other boys, there was a huge

So your sex assigned at birth was male. But inside you always felt like you were female.

Correct.

I had an experienced when I was a child--and I just want to see maybe how my experience is different than yours.

Oh, definitely.

So when I was like seven or eight, I remember talking, talking to some friends and saying that I wished I were a girl. And the reason was, because this was the early 90s. And in hot pink was super cool. I really wanted to wear pink, but I couldn't because I was a boy. And so I wanted to--so I wanted to, like wear some of these, like, pink things that my that I saw women wearing. So I was like, "I want to be a girl," in my mind, because I wanted to wear hot pink. It was the early

There definitely is a difference between someone who is gay, but as a child, just, you know, who liked girl things, versus somebody whose gender identity does not match up with their sex assigned at birth.

Yeah, I just wanted to like "My Little Ponies" and not be teased for it.

Yeah.

Which you shouldn't be teased for it. Ben,

I did have a lot though I did have quite the collection.

Well, I mean, there's a difference between wanting to maybe break gender stereotypes. So being comfortable with your own gender. Versus Ben, you said you wanted to wear the clothes. You didn't want to be the person in the clothes, you know?

Yeah. I wasn't allowed to watch Jerry Springer growing up. But of course, when you're as a teenager, when you're told no, that just makes you want to do it more.

Of course.

And so I late at night, I snuck snuck and watched an episode. And it was an episode about you know, there was a transgender girl on there. And that was I just remember saying to myself, "I never want to be that." They were referring to her as "it" or "thing," or I just made me...

Well, it seems like that would be kind of like the manifestation of something. You were scared of?

Oh, yeah.

And also the way that that individual was treated was sounds very poorly and othering and dehumanizing, and why would you want to succumb yourself or submit yourself to that type of treatment?

Yeah, internalized transphobia that's very much a thing. And...

So there was a time in your life when you presented yourself and were referred to with with male pronouns.

Exactly.

And then you transitioned into presenting as a female, the the gender that you feel like you are, and, and now people refer to you in female pronouns, and you changed your name? Can you talk a little bit more about that experience what that was like?

So

Basically, I just asked you, what's it like to be transgender?

That's, that's totally okay. That's totally okay. And again, I'm just speaking for my experience and not for the transgender community or other transgender individuals. Most of us, of course, wish there was some magic wand or magic pill that we could just take to just just like that--snap--just just switch us over and make us the right way how we were supposed to be. That doesn't exist. And that's not real, unfortunately.

So can a person socially transition but not medically transition?

Oh, yeah

Is that common?

There are so many different I, at first, I thought there was only, you know, I thought I can't do this. I either have to choose between transition all the way or not. Those, I thought, were my only two choices. But there's so much in between those two there, I have lots of friends who have socially transitioned, but have done nothing medically or legally. And, yeah, it's just every trans person you meet as their path is unique to them, and very personalized. So.

So transitioning, is it safe to say that it's, it's more about getting to a place where you're comfortable with who you are and how you're treated? And how you view yourself?

I like that. Yeah, I like that, Charlie, because I would like to think that it means being okay with who you are--somehow getting to a place where you're okay with yourself and your journey and where your path is going.

Do people ask you to what extent you've transitioned?

Yes.

What is that like?

Well, there are, of course, different ways that people ask this question. Some people will just right out ask, you know, "What surgeries have you had? Have you had surgeries?" Other people will ask it the way you have, you know, "How far have you transitioned?" And which, you know--would you be okay, if I asked you? You don't go around asking people?

Well, it probably feels uncomfortable and inappropriate to be asking someone, especially if you don't have a close relationship with them, like details about their genitalia.

Exactly, exactly.

And I found that when I come out to people, some people feel they have the right to ask me about my sexual history,

Which of course would be inappropriate and yeah. Yeah. Again, it's it's about learning and understanding how to love and support people who are different than you.

It kind of sounds like, like, understanding versus curiosity. You know, like, if someone's asking things to truly understand it and know who Ann is and how she feels comfortable--versus just curious about something that seems peculiar.

Right. Right. And I understand why people would be curious, I get it, but that it's not really important.

Yeah.

So Ann, if we could go back a little bit to those those months, and maybe few years before you started to transition, if we could step into your head those months before--what was going on in there?

Warning, Ben, that won't be a safe play. It will be crazy. I was pretty torn. Because in my mind, being transgender meant that I would lose my job. I would--my family would disown me, you know, my I would lose all my friends. Of course, I would get divorced and not be able to see my child. And I would I would pretty much have to move away and start a whole new life. And I, I envisioned for some reason that was San Francisco because the thought...

The Mecca...

Oh, yeah, exactly. Yeah,

Who can afford the Bay Area these days??

No one.

I don't know. Yeah, but in my mind, that was always like, "Oh, if I ever do this, that's where I would move to and start a new life." So that was very scary. That was really scary. And it was also scary to my wife. I'm married. It took a while to finally get to a place where I could say, "Yes, this is who I am." And that brought on a whole different, like, well, what then what do I do? And where do I go? and...

When I started to make plans to end my life. That was pretty much like maybe I should--before I do that--try something different.

And I'm so sorry, that sounds like a terrifying time. So walk us through what happened what's happened in the years since like, like, if we could go into your head now what would we be experiencing?

Wow. Transitioning at work was scary, but they've been very supportive. Lost a few friends, but I gained so many more friends than I ever would have before. My family, they was hard for them to take. A couple of my siblings didn't talk to me for a while but you know after years and years, I, you know, they have since apologized and wanted me back in their life. So realize that the only thing that really matters is love and that you love others.

Are you still married to your wife?

I am surprisingly. We got married in the Bountiful temple about 20 years ago, we both were starting to make plans to divorce when I when I admitted that I was transgender. But we kind of took a step back, and why don't we just Why? Why do we have to get divorced? Everybody does, of course, but why do we have to? And so we just decided to, you know, we still loved each other. So we just decided to just see how

Help us understand why it was important to use different pronouns to switch from he/him/his pronouns, she/her/hers.

When someone does misgendered me it, it feels kind of like putting a rubber band around your wrist and pulling it and letting it go. It's just...

Startling.

Yeah, it is Starling. And in a way it feels like they're saying, "You're wrong. I don't believe you."

Or maybe even "I don't even accept you."

Yeah, if they're doing it maliciously. I mean, if they're, you know, honest mistake, that's different. Yeah, "I don't accept you. I don't believe you."

If a If a parent came and talked to you and said, "My teenage child just came out as transgender." What advice would you give that parent?

Listen to your child, don't try to tell them they're wrong, or, you know, they should do handle it some certain way. But just just listen and be there. And it'll take time, but everything will work out.

Could you tell us about your faith?

Wow, that's a tricky one. But I do know that my Heavenly Father loves me. And I do have a testimony of the gospel, and of my Savior, Jesus Christ.

Well, Ann thank you for joining us today. And thank you for your openness and honesty, and hopefully this podcast will be able to start some conversations and that other people will be able to familiarize themselves with the transgender experience to be able to empathize and understand.

Thank you guys, I appreciate you both having me.

Of course. Thank you for joining us today. Please remember that we do not represent the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints or Brigham Young University. We are not trying to be prescriptive or tell anyone what to think or what to do.

You heard three perspectives, and there are many, many more. We encourage you to listen to other voices and hear a wide variety of experiences. If you would like to submit a question or share a comment about today's episode, you can email us at questionsfromthecloset@gmail.com. Until next time...