Welcome to Questions from the Closet. I'm Ben Schilaty.
And I'm Charlie Bird. Each episode we discuss a question that we commonly get asked as LGBTQ Latter-day Saints.
We're not trying to answer this question or come to consensus, but simply sharing our perspectives. Today's question is, what is your gay agenda?
Ben and I are not terribly diverse and we share many opinions and life experiences. For example, we are both terrible daily planners.
However, there are some pretty big differences. For example, I actually have an agenda and a planner.
And I definitely do not.
You do not. I hate organizing like time. It's awful. Like whenever I go on vacation, I just like it paralyzes me, like, I don't know how to decide what to do, where to go, how to organize it.
I feel like with a vacation, I'm really good. But just in my daily life, terrible.
I'm terrible. So that's why I started going on tours. I just like pay someone to organize everything for me.
Really?!?
It's great.
Oh, my gosh, I would never do that.
I am so fun, like to have along but not great at making decisions.
I don't think I've had a daily planner since my mission. And before that in elementary school, remember those agendas that they were like holographic and you could scratch them?
Yes, I do.
I love those. Maybe I need to get me one of those then I'd plan better.
So I stopped. I started using the calendar app on my phone because I like double booked myself a couple times and hadn't realized it. I was like, I gotta stop doing this. So now I just write everything down. And with you. It's so hard to plan with you. I'm like, Charlie, you free to plan this podcast in like two weeks you're like, I don't know. Yeah, Ben always is like, please remember you have this this and this this week. I'm like, hey, thank you, Ben. How do you know this?
It's on my calendar.
We would like to provide a variety of voices and perspectives. So today we're joined once again by Sara Keller Langford.
Hi, guys, so happy to be back. Thank you for having me.
So Sara, for those people who did not listen to the episode, should I go on a mission? Tell us just a little bit about yourself.
Great. I am a bisexual woman married to a gay man. We've been married now for just under seven years. I'm from New Jersey. I really, really, really love people.
So people think that there's this agenda that we have as gay people that we're trying to like, take over the world and destroy the family and change society and do all these things that're gonna like bring down the powers of Satan...
Right.
...to the earth. And that's not what we're about. And, and I've seen like like quippy memes where people like the gay agenda is this they'll be like, do my laundry, go grocery shopping, watch Netflix is like the gay agenda is just like a regular life.
I'm actually super curious for both of you guys. And I'm sorry. I know like last time we did this.
I love how you interview us on our own podcast. Go for it. We love it.
I want to know like where you guys first heard like the phrase gay agenda? Do you remember when those words put themselves together in your mind? Like you do hear them? Read them? Did someone else say it to you? Where did that come from? Yeah, I mostly heard it on Fox
News and at church. I'm not trying @ any news station, but, but I generally saw this from religious conservative people who were worried about like increased LGBTQ representation in media, and policies that would give a little bit more leeway and rights to gay people.
And how those policies would affect the children.
Exactly. And so especially during like 2008, proposition eight in California. It's always so interesting, looking back, knowing that I was gay the whole time. Like the way I like reinforce homophobic ideas because I was scared of myself. I was one of the gay agenda-ers and being like, everyone's trying to shove this gay agenda. It was almost like a recruitment process, like I viewed being gay as a recruitment process, rather than just something that people are born with.
And I remember, like, I was 24. And I was reading some story about Rome. And they were saying, like, the Rome fell because of homosexuality. I was like, homosexuality is gonna destroy our nation, too.
Yeah.
I was 24. I was like, a real adult.
Whoa. I just, you know, for me, like the gay agenda for me, it's very closely connected to prop eight, like 2008. I was a junior in high school, when that happened. And I don't know, I think it was a Sunday school lesson. Someone talked about it. They used as an as an example of like, Sodom and Gomorrah, and this was the slippery slope. I always have heard it as like, the beginning of the slippery slope.
Right.
Right. Like if we let the gay agenda happen or be written and...
Like, what's next?
Right.
Where do we draw the line?
Exactly. It's really, it's really interesting, because when I push people on what the gay agenda is, like, well, like what is it exactly? No one can articulate it. And I'm like, well, what like, what is it exactly? Like what? Which maybe is like a good lesson just in general. Like naming our fears. Like...
To be honest, I think I know what it is. I think it's people who feel uncomfortable seeing gay people.
Hmmmm. Tell me. Tell me what do you mean by that?
So I've had a lot of people tell me like, it's fine that you're gay. Just stop shoving it in our face. Right? So it's like, and it kind of comes along the lines of like, that's cool that you're gay but why do you have to come out publicly?
Right.
And that's cool that you're gay, but like, I don't want my kids to see two dudes holding hands in the park. One time I was having, and this was before I was even out, I was in a conversation where people were talking about that. And I was just listening. And I was like, is this true, like do are gay people always shoving their lives in other people's faces and being like, overtly loud. And then the next day, we had Stake Conference for my YSA
stake. And to begin his talk, the Stake President called his wife up, and they held hands at the pulpit. And they talked about how they met and how long they dated. And then they kissed each other. And then she went back and sat down. And then he gave his talk. And I was like, straight people shove their sexuality in my face all the time. And I was thinking about like movies, and every Disney movie and every romantic comedy I've ever seen. And every time I've been outside, and like seen
any couple ever. It's like straight people and every song I've ever listened to on the radio, and every book I've ever read and every form of media that I've ever consumed, has been heteronormative. And it's fine. Like, I'm okay with that. I think it's beautiful when two people fall in love. And so that was the first time when I was kind of like, what's the difference?
Right?
And that's the thing, because it's hypocritical to be like two guys holding hands that's shoving it in my face. But I'm gonna get married and have a big party for everybody. And I'm gonna remind you about that every year.
Yeah.
Well, I think it's really yeah, anniversaries. Right? Sara, we do not want to hear about your and Brandon's anniversary.
Oh my gosh you guys.
Just kidding. I love it.
So wonderful.
We have no problems with like weddings.
I think it's beautiful.
But but it's just it's just hypocritical to be like, well, you're shoving it in my face because people just don't re lize that gay people are just oing the same thing and str ight people are
So let's let's unpack this just like a little bit. Right? Okay. I don't know who I'm talking to in this moment. I mean, clearly, I'm talking to Ben and Charlie but like, I'm just gonna paint a picture for let's call her Jane Doe. Jane Doe is scared of the gay agenda. And...
Can we make Karen?
Oh no. No, my mother in law's name is Karen guys.
Oh no!
Don't do it. It would be a disaster. Okay, like Jane Doe. And Jane doesn't see the 98. She sees 100 couples, she doesn't see the 98 straight couples that are kissing and holding hands. Oh, that she sees are the two couples that are gay. And I guess my question for Jane would be is just like, what does that say about you that that's the only ones that you see? Like, I'm so curious about that. Right? And it's and I don't know
what Jane's answer would be. But I'd want to have a conversation with her a little bit more about why. What does that mean? Like, if the gay agenda is realized in the worst possible way what does that actually look like?
I think 100% is that their kids will be gay.
Their kids will be gay.
Their kids will be gay.
We'll turn their children gay.
Is there anything else? Like maybe families?
The deterioration of the family unit?
Okay, what else?
I've also heard like, certain wars have been started because of homosexuality like Vietnam.
Really?
I don't. I don't know about that.
You've never heard that? Someone taught me that in church once.
Oh, wow.
Yeah, that's kind of rough.
I heard that Hurricane Katrina happened because of the gays.
Stop it. Are you joking?
I am not joking.
Well, the thing is like, it's like funny and we can joke about it, but people actually believe this. Right?
Yeah they do.
And so like, to an extent it's like, not funny, because it's like, this is a reality that people face and like, how do we overcome this? Like, how do we overcome the fear of people who are different than us? And in those people wanting a place at the table?
I think transparency is like a big part of it. I mean, I really believe in demystification, just in general. Yeah. Like, I love the mystery, right. But I mean, like, especially fears, you know, if you can't see it, it's really hard to be scared of it, or it's really easy to be scared of it. Okay, let's, let's revisit the first thing. Okay,
what if your child is gay? I'm looking at two of the best people that I know, Ben Schilaty and Charlie Bird, and if anyone's children ended up like these two people, you would be lucky. Because let me let me tell you what that means. It means that you're kind. It means you're compassionate. It means you're empathetic. It means that you show up for other people. It means that you're brave enough to share your story because you
care about the world. You know, you understand that you have like, an eternal mission and a role and that you're here to live it and fill it. Like, tell me tell me what's bad about that.
That was super kind of you, Sara. Thank you.
I mean, it though.
I know that my parents are so proud of me. I'm so proud of me. But I also know that like my being gay has been hard for them. Yeah. Not not just because they like, not because I'm gay, but just because my life isn't the life that they expected.
Yeah. It's, it's hard to be a pioneer. It's hard to be like the first in anything. We know that. Like we've seen that. I don't, I don't know what it's like to be a parent and to have my child be gay. I don't know
what that's like. But I can tell you that I feel like it says so much about you, parent that I'm speaking to, that God chose your child, to be this person, in this place, to be this to be this missionary, to be this pioneer, to be this incredible vessel for love and I hope that you would wear that with like a bit of pride because the people that have impacted me most powerfully are your children. I would hope that like your, your greatest fear would become like your greatest joy.
Well, all that said like the gay agenda isn't to turn people gay.
No, it's not. And like deterioration of the family. Like, let's I want to talk about that a little bit. Like, what does that... Go ahead, Charlie have a thought? Yeah. Do you have a thought. So, so over the summer, I was talking to one of my friends, and he'd started dating this girl. And they were like, getting really serious talking about talking about marriage. I asked him, I was like, say, you
marry this girl. And then down the road, I end up marrying a guy and have a husband, how does my relationship affect your relationship? And he was like, it wouldn't. And I was like, yeah, like, that's it, like, I'm not gonna try to destroy his relationship, because I like him. And I like her. And I think it's great. And like me, having a same sex relationship wouldn't really affect his relationship at all. So that's really my only, that's all I know about the deterioration of the family.
Other than that, like, I love families. Like I love my family, I love when my friends get married and find their person. I love when they have kids. It makes me so happy. And I would never want to do anything to destroy that, or change that, or put a wrench in that plan. When something like amazing happens for you or people that you love like, it just seems like well, why wouldn't you want more of it? I don't know. Like, why would you want more people
to be happy? Have you guys seen the episode of Parks and Rec?
The answer's yes.
With the gay penguins?
With the gay penguins. Right? Right? And they like, I don't know, like the couple. And he's like, Why? Why do you care so much about this and like, well, gay people getting married, ruins marriage for the rest of us. And there's like, you know, everyone is like, clearly laughing about this that's watching the show, because it's so ridiculous.
Right? But I love that quote, because it just it puts so starkly, like, really at what seems to be the heart of the fear that like this would really, really like why would this why would this ruin marriage? So like, let's go back to Jane Doe. Jane Doe, like, I would just invite you to consider like, if that's like your fear that this will somehow ruin marriage for you I want to to understand a little bit about
maybe why that is. Right? And maybe that says a lot more about you than it does about anyone else.
Well, and the thing is, I don't think we're asking Jane to change her stance on marriage equality.
No.
That's not what we're asking. But it would be really nice if she looked at things and was like, all these gay people are saying that they're unheard, and that they need more like, Why? What are the reasons and if she could look and see that LGBTQ youth are three times more likely to commit suicide than their peers, maybe she would see why it's important to have representation and resources. And if she could see that acceptance of a gay person reduces the risk of suicide by
40%. This is huge. That's 40% just having one person who says, I see you and I get it. Jane could be that person for someone. And so whatever she believes about marriage, whatever she believes about family and covenants, or any of that, if she could just see that there are people who are hurting. And there are children of God, who are not given opportunities, or resources or representation. Maybe her view on the gay agenda would change.
And maybe the gay agenda would become part of Christ's agenda, which is to lift people out of oppression, and to lift people onto the, a field of equality and joy and love, rather than shame and darkness and isolation. Let's talk about that. Like, I feel like, let's talk more about what the gay agenda actually means for each of us. Like, Charlie, you started kind of touching on it, like, what do you tell me more about how you came to that conclusion?
Yeah. So I mean, when I think about increased representation and resources it, had that existed when I was younger, had the gay agenda been more visible to me, I would think about, like the shame that I wouldn't have to undergo and the isolation that I wouldn't have to feel, and the paranoia, and the loss that I perceived. Without all of those extra weights that I had on myself that society put there how much more could I have done? How much more could I have been? How much more could I have
served? If I wasn't weighed down by all of this? This, like social baggage? Just because I was born?
Right?
Yeah, you know, I we like have an actual agenda, like something that we're trying to accomplish. And it's not about gay marriage or turning kids gay because we couldn't do that even if we want to, and we don't. But you know, as I think about like, what my agenda is, and like, what my purpose and what I like in my speaking out and writing a book and doing this podcast, and it really is summed up by what Elder Ballard said at BYU, back
in 2018. He said, we need to listen to and understand what our LGBT brothers and sisters are feeling and experiencing. Certainly, we must do better than we have done in the past so that all members feel they have a spiritual home, where their brothers and sisters love them and where they have a place to worship and serve the Lord. And that's what I'm all about is helping people listen to and understand their LGBT brothers
and sisters. And that acknowledgment that we have to do better than we've done in the past and then just building off of that, Sister Eubank in the most recent General Conference in October 2020. She said, we may not yet be where we want to be. And we are not now where we will be. I believe the change we seek in ourselves and the groups we belong to will come less by activism, and more by actively trying everyday to understand one another. Why? Because we're building Zion, a people have one
heart and one mind. So my agenda is to build Zion. And we build Zion by really seeing what's in one of those hearts. And so on this podcast, Charlie and I, we share our hearts. And then we invite people like you Sara, to come and share your hearts too. And we hope that as we speak out, that more people will be empowered to speak out. And that's how we're going to build Zion by helping people share
their hearts. What I found again, and again, and this happens with with all kinds of people, when I share my story, they just intuitively want to share theirs. And I have heard so many beautiful stories that aren't LGBT related just because I was vulnerable and opened up that someone responded like, reciprocated with with
vulnerability. And those are the moments when I felt like I've been building Zion in those one on one times where I'm sharing my heart, and then someone wants to share theirs too. I love that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, we have like a strong tradition of testimony. You know, we really believe in the importance of like testifying in order to move
people. And I mean, it's so important to us that we set aside the first Sunday of every single month to give people the opportunity to go to the pulpit and share why they love their Savior, why they believe in Jesus Christ. And when I see like these, these examples of representation, the posts, from the two of you, or the articles, the things that people might say, are shoving the gay agenda like, just like, maybe let's reframe it for a second. Like, maybe it's just like, maybe it's
testimony. And actually, not maybe I think it is testimony. There's someone that's standing up and testifying of themselves of their love for themselves of their, of their Heavenly Father, of each other. And for me, that's when I like, think about what the gay agenda is, you know, going back to kind of how all of us met and really work together on like, BYU, the BYU Working Group. It was about ministry, you know, it was about
showing up for each other. And something that I really loved about that group, I'm going to, I don't know if we've ever fully talked about the story of that group on this podcast yet. And maybe one day, we will. One of the things that I loved about that group was that there was so much diversity in like thought and execution. We showed up for
each other. You know? I showed up for someone who was really conservative, who had a lot of anxiety around words like gay and lesbian and wanted to use phrases like same sex attraction. I'm like, you know what, like, I'm here to show up for them. Like, that's, I'm here to show up for them and to show up for their right to believe what they believe. That's what I hoped that they would do for me. And that's, that's what I see in this community.
Yeah, I remember, you know, we did have a lot of diversity on that group, just like of, you know, people on all sides of the LGBTQ spectrum and like, with faith in the church, and whatnot. And I remember when we were putting out flyers for that, the event that we were, that we were in, I walked around campus with, with two people from the group who were probably
on the most opposite sides. And the three of us walked around campus, and we we put up posters, and we just like laughed and had the best time I thought, what an odd trio that we are, yeah, people with such different life viewpoints and goals. And yet we love and care about each other. And we're working on this together. Right? Like, that's where the
miracles happen, right? Like, I think the most incredible miracle from the Book of Mormon and Ben and Charlie both have talked, I talked to you guys about this is like, where the Anti-Nephi-Lehis are like, made this covenant with God and said, I will not raise my hand against my brother. You know, I made a covenant with God that I said, I would not raise the sword. And they're killed. You know, like, there was no angel that came and
interceded on their behalf. But like the miracle that came out of it was like their sons and their, their sons and I put, and daughters, like, you know, and they're the stripling warriors. And they were protected. And when the moment came, like, they were completely, and this incredible miracle happened. Sara, I just love what you said about how you know that the faith of this one generation led to the salvation of the next.
Yeah.
And I've said this a lot. Like, I feel like I'm, I'm old, you know, I'm in my mid-thirties. I'm 36. And, and, you know, I feel like, I've kind of made it through a lot of a tough time. Yeah, I feel like I'm, I'm gonna be okay. Like, I've got a I've got a clear trajectory of what I want my life to look like. And when I look at the, the younger kids, like in their teens and 20s, who were just like, coming into themselves. Like, honestly, I feel like I'm doing this work for them.
Yeah.
They're just not, this isn't for me. It's for, it's for the people coming after.
Which is hard. You know, like, kind of an honestly, sometimes it's frustrating because it seems like oh my gosh, we're having the same conversations 50 years later. Like the same arguments about representation in gender and sexuality. And then like, I stopped myself for a minute like no, like we are further along. And like, I'm so grateful that my mom like toughed it out in medical school and tested out of her residency program where she was the mother of six children.
Oh my gosh. She's amazing.
I know. My mom's amazing. She's, my mom's amazing. She's a spectacular human being. And, you know, I think that like, acknowledging like, the gratitude, like having gratitude for those that came before us, like really believing that we're building on the shoulders of giants is important.
And going back to what Ben said, that that's why I support the gay, like, that's my gay agenda, right? That's why I share things. That's why I share experiences and try to create resources, because I know what it's like.
Yeah.
Like, I know what it's like to not have any trajectory whatsoever and feel buried, when people crawl out, crawl out of that to any extent and are willing to, like, give that space to someone else and say, you know what, I've cleared out this much of the path, come down with me, and that we can clear more together. You know, I think there's something really beautiful there. And just I keep going back to this this time, when we were all on this working
group at BYU. And that was my first time, like, officially being part of a gay agenda. I was my senior year at BYU. And I was actually not out. I was out to a couple friends and most of my family, but this space was so like, necessary for my improvement for who I've become.
And that year, I spent interacting with people who were like, literally Ben, I wrote th s in my book, like watching yo and in your confidence and yo r vulnerability and how just go d you were and Sara, the way yo understand how to like ph ase things and put words to ether and like, just meet pe ple where they're at. I spent th s entire year learning from so e of the greatest minds and th greatest souls that this ch rch has to offer. Like, I re
lly believe that. And then to se later down the road, how ev n when some of the things th t we were like writing up or pr posing got shot down and d dn't go through like the c aracter building experience t at was and how that affected m ability to advocate and help i this space now. That's, th t's like, so valuable. It's un recedented. My experience wi h the real gay agenda being in lusion, belonging, love, long s ffering, charity. I'm gonna, I
Charlie, I remember, after some of the meetings, I m gonna keep with that gay a enda. Like, because it's made m better. would drive you home, because it was like dark and winter and, and when sometimes we sit in my current talk for a while. And I remember those, you know, as talking to me, like being your mentor. And I was like sobbing reading your book, when you said you like wished you could be as brave as me. And then like, you are, like, you're super brave.
And like, I feel like my agenda is just, I want to empower people, like if I could help you a little bit to be okay with who you are. And you can do all this. Now, I'm willing to sit with anyone who needs to learn a little bit of how to be brave. I really hope that whoever is so scared, and is feeling like something is being shoved down their throats, that they would like care enough about me as a person to at least try to talk to me about it. And like, wrestle it out with me man.
Like, I will do my best to try to not like convert somebody into something or to bring them to my side, like, I'm only human, right? But, and I really, I really do believe there's there magical miraculous things that come from like just showing up and talking about what it is that's making you feel so scared in the first place. Because what I know for me, like, to me, the negative repercussions of believing in a gay agenda is just completely shutting out a group of people.
Yeah.
Like shutting out yourself, to what that could be for you. And when I say what that could be, I mean, like, I don't know, the opportunity to grow and like stretch yourself. And if you cut out gay people from your life, you're cutting off part of the body of Christ, and you don't have a full functioning body.
Right?
And yeah, we're all poorer if we aren't all together,
Yes, we need the tension. We need the wrestle. We need the, we need the clarity and like it doesn't... I really try hard not to live in a vacuum. You know, I try hard not to like surround myself with people that only think and look and act like me and and I love the Primary songs, except as they make jokes about it when we're teasing each other. But it's really like if you don't act like most people are walk like most people do. Some people may laugh and point at you, but I won't.
And Ben, I'm gonna steal something from you.
Please do. Give it back.
Okay, I will. Well, I feel like I've never been rejected or misunderstood by someone who's actually taking time to get to know me and my story.
Amen.
And then it all makes sense. You know, anyone who's ever put forth the effort to try to understand what it's like, comes out with an understanding and it's, loses judgment. It loses fear, it loses any negativity just to be like, oh, I see this person.
Yeah.
So part of my gay agenda is I do a lot and I'm grateful to like, I love speaking in classes at BYU. You know, I love giving firesides and Sunday lessons. You know, I love writing and I love doing this podcast like, like, I love what I do. But sometimes I get really tired. Yeah, and part of my gay agenda is I want other people to step up as well. I don't wanna say like that.
No, say it!
No, say it like that.
No, it's really hard. It's exhausting. And, and we've touched on this in previous episodes, it's so hard to always be expected to educate everyone on all parts of this experience. Like, we're just one person. And that's really hard. And, and so how much better...
We're literally three people but...
Well yeah.
Can I keep going for a second.
Yeah.
So so I don't want people to think like, oh, Ben is too busy. He's too tired, and therefore not gonna ask him to do things. Like no, I want to keep doing things. But I also also want people who feel inspired to who feel who feel his call to let to like, stand up and, and start doing doing work as well. That doesn't mean doing what I do, but like doing whatever you feel called to do.
I've been thinking of this a lot that just this last week, just like because there's this verse in Doctrine and Covenants, I think the section 50 or 60, were it talks about how how the Lord wasn't well pleased with his servants, because they were hiding their talents. And I thought about the times when when I felt prompted before I'd come out to anyone to come out to someone. And how I was so afraid that I couldn't do it.
And I don't think the Lord was well pleased with that, because he was inspiring me to do something that I didn't do. And then once I started having the courage to do what I was inspired to do, like my life got so much better. And I hope that other people's lives have gotten better as well, because I, I finally had the courage to do what I was being asked to do. So part of what I want to do is just help people to have the courage to follow those promptings they receive, whatever they are,
I would like to invite you to consider how much you're willing to let your desire to remain comfortable like how far you're willing to go with that, like, because the consequences are of that, or sometimes other people's lives. The consequences of wanting to maintain the status quo, or like your reality of your opinions is, is someone else's lives. You know, like the statistics that Charlie was sharing, those are real, the in between is hard. The path to suicide is it's hard. There's
anxiety. There's depression. There's isolation. And what's so frustrating is that there are things that we can do about it. And we're trying really hard. You know, I've been feeling an increased, like desire to make invitations to anyone who listens to these podcasts. And I've been kind of like, pushing against that, because it feels awkward to be like, dear
listener, please do this. But like, if you feel inspired to do something, or share something, or say something, or look into a resource or learn something, please do it. And and Ben has said this before, it's so hard for one person to do 10 things. But if 10 people do one thing,
like how much better are we? And so I just want to extend that invitation as we're kind of wrapping things up to like, help, like, help us help us create a space that allows people to live and see and be seen and help us create a Zion environment where everyone can feel Christ's love. An environment where we can follow an apostolic invitation to listen and understand our LGBTQ brothers and sisters.
I love that. I would invite you to consider what the invitation is within your discomfort. You know, what is the invitation that God is extending to you? Like, what is God asking of you in this moment of frustration and discomfort? Because I know that the answer that you will find will surprise you.
Me too. And honestly, like, I don't feel like we have the answers. Like I'm not trying to say what, what anyone or let alone the church should or shouldn't do. I just want people to get to know one another's hearts and like that's where the answers come from. Like that's what Sister Eubank said, as we get to know one another's hearts as we get to know one another. That's how we build Zion. And we don't like to have to come up with the solutions, because we'll do as a community.
The tragedy is, to me is that 100% of the time the people that have gone to find their own community to make their own communities that are maybe still here, like us with our little micro community. Here we are right now, like, man, I would love if every ward functioned to the way that it was supposed to as a Zion community where it validated and observed and ministered to the one so that we wouldn't need to spend so much time and effort and energy. I'm really glad that we have each
other. I'm really glad that we, but it sometimes it makes me sad that we need each other so much because we weren't getting it somewhere else.
Definitely. Yeah.
It's just it's just it's ironic, right? It's like getting mad at people because they're going, they're finding more people that look like them and more friends are really we're getting mad at people because they're finding friends and are celebrating that when really they were just asking you to be their friend all along. Can you tell how I'll know if I succeeded?
Tell me.
This will be success for me. If someone listens to this podcast and says, I heard Ben's story, I heard Charlie's story, I heard Sara's story. And they have a gay loved one or gay friend, and they say, I want to hear your story. And they go and ask them their story. That's how I'll know I've succeeded. If all the listeners do that. Doctrine and Covenants 121 really inspires me. It's a letter that Joseph Smith wrote to the saints while he was in Liberty Jail. And toward the last, like seven
verses are amazing. And one of the things he says is, he says, we should waste and wear out ou lives and bring into light al the hidden things wherein we now them. And after saying that he says that a very large shi is is turned by a very s all rudder, or whatever it is, b by being kept work away with the wind and the waves, like a ery small, a very small thing can can turn a big ship. And the last verse in that, in that section is my favorite v
rse. And he says, wherefore d the beloved brother and l t us cheerfully do all things that lie in our power, and then ay we stand still with the tmost assurance to see the sal ation of God and for his arm to be revealed. And like, I know that, like right now, I feel li e I'm wasting my life feels a it, a bit like an exaggeration, but I think I'm really called t
give all of me to this. And maybe like this small thing that we're doing this little podcast could could turn Zion, in the way that God wants it to go, and I'm just gonna cheerfull do everything I can. But in the end, it's God's arm tha 's gonna really do anythi
I just want to add real quick that every time Ben quotes a scripture or a general authority, he's not reading it. It's literally he just quoting it out of his head.
Honestly?
Just just so everyone knows.
There's this quote by Brigham Young that I found the other night that I just felt like it's been such a gift for me. Essentially, it's a call to action: There is a great work for the saints to do progress and improve upon and make beautiful everything around you. Cultivate the earth and cultivate your minds. Build cities. Adorn your habitations.
Make gardens, orchards and vineyards, and render the earth so pleasant, that when you do look upon your labors, that you may do so with pleasure, and that angels may delight to come and visit your beautiful locations. In the meantime, continually seek to adorn your minds with all the graces of the Spirit of Christ. That's what I'm, that's what I'm seeking to do when I think about the cities that I want to make and the earth that I'm trying to
cultivate. It's the things that we've described and talked about. And in the meantime, what I feel like that's it'll be brought about, by like, my sincere desire to become more like my Savior. Which it means to do all that I can to hold space for other people, to be gracious, to be kind, to believe in redemption, to believe in repentance and the atonement. And to me this, it's it's hopeful. So I'm, I don't know,
I'm really grateful. I'm so grateful for the two of you, for like your work, and for the conversations. And for the faith, giving all of yourselves to this. I really am. And I'm just thank you for that. It means a lot to me. And I know that a lot of other people. And I just will kind of mirror that back right to you. Thank you for coming on. Your, your perspective, and your worldview is so like, shiny. It's like shiny gold, and it's really beautiful. Thank you for being here.
Thanks, Charlie.
Thank you for joining us today. And if you want to join in the building of Zion join that too. If you have enjoyed this or other episodes, please consider leaving a review. And as always, please remember that we do not represent the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints or Brigham Young University. We're not trying to be prescriptive or tell anyone what to think or what to do.
You heard three perspectives, and there are many, many more. We encourage you to listen to other voices and hear a wide variety of experiences. If you would like to submit a question or share a comment about today's episode, you can email us at questionsfromthecloset@gmail.com. Until next time.