Welcome to Questions from the Closet. I'm Charlie Bird.
And I'm Ben Schilaty. Each episode we discuss a question that we commonly get asked as LGBTQ Latter-day Saints.
We're not trying to answer this question or come to a consensus but simply sharing our perspectives. Today's question is, what if my spouse comes out as gay?
Which we both have a lot of experience with? Charlie and I are not terribly diverse and share many opinions and life experiences. For example, we both have dated girls.
However, there are some pretty big differences. For example, I have never been dumped by a girl but Ben has.
They all dumped me.
Why did they dump you Ben?
One girl because she could tell I wasn't into it. And the other one because she went on a long trip. And she said she didn't miss me while she was gone. Those weren't the exact words she used but that was the sentiment, but I think it also was like I was gay. And she was like, one of the first people ever told. Oh, she knew you were gay. Yeah.
Oh, I know. I know who you're talking about now.
Yeah, well, I mean, I wrote a whole book about her. A whole chapter. Anyway, and then the third girl I dated, I guess I technically broke up with her. But she, I could tell she wanted to break up with me. And she was, like, six years younger than me. And so we like went on this like date to Salt Lake. And we were coming home. And she like, obviously, for a couple of days. Like I could tell she was
like wanting to be out of it. So when I like dropped her off, I was like, so how do you feel like things are going and she said, do you want to say it? And I said yes. As I think we should break up and she said so do I.
Wow. You're a bad boyfriend?
No I was not a bad boyfriend. I just, well, I mean, it depends what you want in a boyfriend. You want someone who's like nice and kind and attentive. I'm great.
I guess they wanted someone, I don't know. They all dumped you so...
They're all very happily married to other people. Well, actually, the first one, I don't know, because I haven't talked to her a long time. But I assume she's happily married. She actually reached out to me on Facebook a couple weeks ago. We haven't talked for like 11 years.
That's exciting.
Now it's been more than that. I went and saw here when I worked at the MTC and I stopped working there when I was 24.
I feel like we're getting down a rabbit hole.
Anyway, how about the girls that you've dumped Charlie. You seem like the bad boyfriend if you're the one dumping the girls. Well, I was gay.
Just like, ah, because if we get, I don't know, we talked we did a whole episode on kissing, right? Kissing girls and like, I don't like, girls would like want to marry me. And I'd be like, oh my gosh, like I haven't even kissed you yet. It's the charm.
See, girls want to marry me, but not the ones I've dated.
Anyway, we need to move on from this or it will get real sticky real fast. Or it's about to get stickier. Because we like to provide a variety of voices and perspectives. And today we're joined by Jessica Frew.
Hi, guys.
So tell us a little bit about yourself.
My name is Jessica. I co-host a podcast with my husband and my ex-husband. My ex-husband is Steve and he is gay. My husband is Matt and he is straight. So that's a bonus for me. And yeah, I have two stepkids. I have a daughter Penny who's 11. And now I'm a bold action taker. That's what I always say. We're teaching people to lead bold lives live the life that feels true to who you are.
Is that why you shaved your head? Am I allowed to ask that? Yeah, your hair is so cool.
The lack of hair? So honestly, it started as I wanted to know what it would be like to have my head shaved because hair is such an identifying factor for who we are. And I'm always the short girl with the spiky hair because my hair is still usually short, but it's sticking up. So I was like okay, so what happens when I get rid of this? Do I still feel confident? Do I still know who I am? So I shaved it off. And I love it.
You still feel who you are?
Yeah.
they have like the opposite effect though. Because now you still don't know because you still love your hair. You're gonna have to grow it out really long.
I thought about buying some wigs just to see what it's like to have really long hair. But yeah, I actually was thinking about this as I was getting ready to come here tonight. I always am a little extra and definitely don't fit the typical Mormon LDS mold.
And I thought it was really normal to do a podcast with your husband and ex husband.
It's totally normal. Totally normal. Yeah.
So you often don't fit in you feel.
Yeah, I but I've never. I don't have a problem with that. I it's just who I am. And I'm okay with that. So...
I love it.
Also you have a great head shape for having children. Thank you. Thank you. I worked hard on that. Very good. headshake. Also, I want to say that your daughter Penny made Charlie and me rainbow bracelets. That we're both wearing. I mean great content for a podcast to talk about something people can't see it. Hair and bracelets.
Before I left tonight she's like, did you get the bracelets? Yes, Penny. I have the bracelets.
We got them.
Super cute. Thanks, Penny. Yeah. So you have experienced dating gay guys.
I have. I have. And it was interesting. listening to you guys talk about it and kissing or not kissing girls and girls you dated and how they they did want to marry or not marry you. Because they can tell.
They wanted to marry me but they did not want to marry Ben.
The last year I dated I was 26. I didn't glow up until I was like 28.
That's fair. Mine were all post glow up.
Now if I now if I did a woman she'd be like, yeah, let's get married.
I mean, it's okay, Ben.
Honestly, though, she really probably would. I like even once I found out that Steve was gay. It was after we were married, I realized six months into our marriage that he was gay. It took him a little longer to realize that. But I also it didn't change who he was to me in that moment. So that was I mean, it didn't change our relationship negatively at that point. And so it was just getting to know him better. I got to know him on a deeper
level. And but dating wise, it was funny because he said all these girls I dated before I was never really into I didn't want to make out with them. I didn't want to kiss them. They always tried to kiss me. It never really did anything for me. And he said all of them always wanted to marry me. And their moms wanted them to marry me because I was a good guy and I respected them. And so anyways, it was just interesting listening to you guys talk about
that. And like, Oh, yeah, Steve relates to these sentiments.
Yeah, I very much relate to that. Oh, you treat her so well. And you're always so well groomed.
Like I care.
So Jessica, you knew your husband was gay before you did? Before he did.
Yes. And I asked him at that point six months into our marriage. Are you gay?
Oh my gosh! That is bold.
And he, it sent him into like a tailspin. Because he had never allowed himself to think those words. Even though he was pretty aware of the fact he was gay, he was very much in denial about that fact, and didn't want to admit that to himself. And I'm newly married to a returned missionary. And you know, everything is supposed to be great. And he had already told me like he had pornography issues, however you want to identify that. He did not tell
me it was all gay porn. And that's when I found all the gay porn six months in. And I was like, Oh, okay. This is like another level to this.
What was your initial reaction to that? Like, how did your heart take that?
I remember, we were living in Maryland at the time. And so we didn't know anybody there. And I'm at home at our apartment, and I was laying on the floor on the computer and all this gay porn started coming up. And I'm realizing, Oh, my gosh, like this, straight men typically don't look at gay porn. And I laid there probably for an hour or so crying, just processing all this, like, what does this mean? We are so happy. We were so happy. And wondering how do I talk to him about this,
I don't want to push him away. I want to draw him in. And I was glad he was at work and didn't get home until late because I could kind of think through some things. Not that it was a lot of time. But I wanted him to feel to feel safe. And I wanted him to know I still loved him that it didn't change anything. But it I mean, it obviously did in ways but the feelings I had for him were still the same. And it was interesting. When he got
home that night he knew. He was like, Oh my gosh, he could tell that something happened. And we talked about it. But he's still at that point told me "Well, I'm not gay. The reason I look at gay porn is because I didn't want to disrespect women." So he very much had convinced himself of that.
Did you believe him?
No. And I was like, that's fine. Like, we can take time to process this. But he said for the next three weeks, like that's all he thought about, am I gay. And it's the first time he allowed himself to think those words to him. And he was scared as most people are, from what I hear, I haven't gone through a coming out experience, that coming out, people aren't going to love you. These, the people that you love are going to love you and accept you. And I didn't want to prove him right
about that. And so I've made it a point from that moment to always love him. And it's, it's been an interesting ride. Obviously, we're divorced at this point. But that was my main goal is for him to know he was loved. It even if it was only by me that he had somebody in his corner, who loved him and on some level I'm the person that should be the most offended, like affected by this by this knowledge. Anyway, it took him a year later for him to realize he was gay.
Can I pause you for a second Jessica? You were getting emotional as you were talking about that. Yeah, like unpack that like like, where's that emotion come coming from?
So it really comes from at the end of our marriage when he did start coming out to other people, because people are like, why are you guys getting divorced, you guys are happy, and we were happy. We had a good marriage, we knew so much about each other. And so very emotionally connected. And so we I said, Steve, we don't really have a choice but to tell people and he had had an affair. And all these things and, and we tried to work through the affair, but it just wasn't
working. He wasn't attracted to me any more after he had the affair. And I was like, Alright, I don't I don't know if I can do that. And, but he was suicidal at that point. And I just knew that I needed to stay close to him, and to show him that love. And so that's, that's why I get emotional thinking about that is because I know how real it is. And I watched him fight for so long to do what he thought was right, to do what he thought would fix him. And I never thought he would be fixed. I
knew he would always be gay. I, but I also felt he could be happy in our marriage because we were happy. But I didn't. At that point when he was suicidal. I mean, I needed him to know that I loved him. And while I was going through a whole slew of emotions, on my end of things, because I was getting a divorce, we had a two year old daughter at that point. And he had had an affair and all of these things, I also knew that I could set those things aside and still love him. And it was just,
yeah, it was just very real. And understanding how important that is for somebody to have when they're going through that and not knowing if how his family is gonna respond or how my family is gonna respond and all of these things. So yeah,
That's such a kind way to respond to someone saying, you know, this affects me, but I love you. Yeah, no matter what.
You have such a big heart.
Thank you.
I'm just trying to put myself in that position of being recently married thinking everything's okay. And for those first six months, you're like, happily married and life is bliss. And, and you have this earth shattering realization. But but to realize that on the other end of it, for those six months, he was probably, like, devoured by shame. And I that's just such a Christ-like way to look at that situation, because it did affect you a lot. That's
amazing. And I also I even I was, so I started to get emotional when you were talking about that, because for a long time, that was my, my biggest fear for myself, that I would be in that position, and get married to a woman, and just have so much shame. And it's so, I love listening to you talk about this, because it's so real. Like, the way I didn't think I was gay, but I knew I was. It doesn't make sense unless you've lived it. I don't
know how to explain it. But I was so afraid that if I ever found a woman that I thought I might be able to make it work with, I would look at pornography or have an affair or do something to hurt someone I really loved.
Can I make a comment? So I have a straight friend who would want me to say that they're straight people who look at gay pornography who aren't gay. So.
Yeah, and I'm sure there are. Yeah.
So just want to validate that experience, if that's an experience someone's having. And also you took this, this, this coming out experience, and you didn't make it about you.
Yeah, that's how it's, because it was about, in, like, if any coming out is about you like it's this. But you still oh, that's amazing.
And I think so many people make someone else's coming out about them. So how did you do that?
I always tend to talk about I told you guys that at the beginning, I'm a bold action taker, and one of the things I hold on to is loving boldly. I firmly believe that when we truly understand the gospel of Jesus Christ, we come to understand that it's about love at the basis, at the very core. This is my interpretation. It's about loving people. And the whole plan is that we come to earth and learn to love people.
And if everybody was exactly like us, if everybody thought, the same way we did, if everybody presented the same way we did. It'd be really easy to just love people or not, but much easier to find, like, Oh, well, they're doing the things they they should do, they're supposed to do. And so it's easy to, to express that love. But that wouldn't help us learn to grow. It wouldn't help us to become who Heavenly Father wants us to become. So we need all of these different perspectives
like this is their plan. This is somebody else's journey. But it's just as much for us to learn how to love people. We can't come here and expect everybody to do the same thing to present the same way or we don't learn anything. We don't grow. We don't get that opportunity. So for me, it was very much you know, I'm here to learn how to love and I did have an experience. Even I got married where I mean, he told me about the pornography a few days
before we got married. Yeah. He's like, hey, I want to be honest with you. So this actually helped because I knew he was trying to be honest with me in the ways that he could. And he told me about the pornography. And I spent the weekend just kind of pondering, I'm like, okay, this is something you know, that is a big deal. But does this change who he really is? Does this change the man that I know he is? Does it change how well he's
treated me? How will I believe he's going to treat me and I just couldn't figure out any reason that it changed anything, except that he was being honest with me. And I saw his shame in that moment as well. I could see it because he's telling me, you know, this is the thing I've always dreaded the most is telling my wife that I had this issue with pornography. And so I didn't want to add to that shame. And so and I knew I still felt very at peace that we get
married. And I had an experience in the temple where it was, the sealer directly told me this is the man I was supposed to marry and all these things, and I just felt like, you know, I, I've always gone back to that, that I knew this was the right decision, and that we were supposed to be a part of each other's lives. However that looked. Not the way I thought it would look.
Even now, like nine years after the divorce, you still feel that way.
Oh, 100%. And I married a man who is very okay with Steve still being a part of my life. And that was kind of the thing when we got divorced. I told Steve, I said, I hope that I marry somebody who's okay with our relationship, because I want you, I always want us to be able to be together in the same room for Penny's, our daughter's events, her big life events, I don't want her to ever think it's weird. I don't want her to
ever be uncomfortable. I knew when I stayed married to knowing you're gay, and then had a daughter with you that this might be something that happens. And so now we have to figure out how it looks for us.
Can we can I take it back into that? He basically he's outed to you. And then and then then at that point, you're kind of like, ahead of him because you're like, you're gay. And he's like, I'm not gay. So during that interim, and then also, going forward, decided to have a child like, what were those, what was that like?
It was an interesting time. And my husband always was like, what were you thinking? Like? Because at one point, so that at the point, Steve came to terms with the fact he was gay, he was we were in the process of moving to Belize, he had we had sold everything we had.
Wow, Why?
He does Hotel Management. So we went and managed the resort down there.
I would love to go to Belize and manage a hotel. No, I wouldn't want to do the managing, but I do want to go to Belize.
Yeah, that was amazing. And so he had left me some returns to do to Deseret Book. He's like, here's the receipt. Here's the stuff I need returned. And I'm looking at the receipt as I'm standing and desert book. And it's all like, homo, homo, homo. And I'm like, okay, he has come to terms with the fact he's gay. He hadn't told me specifically, but I saw and they were like workbooks, because I went and found it and I was like, Okay, what is this
stuff? And I'm like, All right, I'm here, I am going to go pick up some books for me.
So so he was returning books from Deseret Book about homosexuality.
They were, he was returning other stuff on the receipt that had nothing to do with homosexuality. On that same receipt was all of these things. That was about homosexuality that his counselor had told him, go pick these up, take them with you.
So if you're gonna buy books about being gay, buy them separately than the other things you're buying.
If you don't want your wife to know or yeah. And Steve's, like, maybe I did want you to know, maybe somewhere, subconsciously, I was just like, oh, she'll see this and figure it out. So I called him he's in Belize I was home for three weeks getting things finished up. And I'm reading all of these books about people who have gone through similar situations where they were married in a mixed orientation, marriage, and how
that went for them. And again, there were a lot of tears during that time of realizing he's probably going to have an affair. It's very likely, at least that he has an affair. If he does it, it's very likely that we at least get divorced or we go through a separation at some time. And all of these things that I'm processing and trying to decide, is this, something I can do, and I still just felt very at peace about it, and continue forward. And we
had fun together. I mean, I and that's the thing I went back to I'm like, What am I missing in this marriage? Am I missing anything at this point, and we didn't have a daughter yet or anything. And I'm like, I'm not. I'm happy. He takes really good care of me. He's very thoughtful. And I knew on some level, he needed me as well. And I knew I was strong enough in who I was, and taking care of myself that I could, I could
continue forward. So it sounds super nuts, but we kept going and I ended up getting pregnant in Belize and we had a baby down there. And it was kind of crazy. But there was a there was a peace about it the whole time.
That's cool. It sounds like you were optimistically realistic.
Yes. Like I knew, I knew that there was a chance all of this could happen. I knew that there was a chance I was going to go through some really hard things by making this decision. And I realized that I was okay with that. And I was accepting my responsibility, and that, that if I stayed married, I couldn't just put all the blame on him. Because I like I said, I watched him fight for so
many years. I mean, when we lived in Belize, we would go every Sunday, and we would he would take roll of everybody that's in church. And after church, we would go visit every member that was not there to invite them to another meeting that night. And he, I mean, we did everything we were he was so devoted in hopes that he would change this. And it broke my heart because I kept telling him, I'm like, you don't need to change this about yourself. You need to just embrace it, and
love this part of you. And years down the road. He started getting more that way in our marriage, but it was it was hard for him to get there.
So walk us through what happened. So you confronted him about the pornography use you read these books about homosexuality? What were the conversations like with your husband once he was more okay with it, and you guys were actually talking about it.
We talked about all the things including things like what types of guys he was attracted to. And if you saw a cute guy at the store, like he would nudge me.
So you're married to him? And he's like, that guy's hot. And you're like, Oh yeah.
Sure. Cool.
Do you have different types?
I mean, I don't know that I necessarily really have a type. But anyway, we watched a lot of Channing Tatum movies, and some other guy he got into for a while, and we watched all of his movies.
And you're not jealous of them?
No, there wasn't, it was never about me. And I, like you guys said, I think there's this thing that we get in our heads that, and especially with pornography, and marriages, that we get that it's about us that it's that they're doing this because there's some lack in us. And that is 99% of the time not the case. It's that there's something in them that is driving them to either need the pornography or those things, there's something that and obviously him being gay, I knew
had nothing to do with me. And while it could have felt very personal and hurtful, I just made a conscious decision to not let that not let me go there to not let it be about me. It wasn't about me.
So how did you deal with like the incongruence of attraction, I'm trying to figure out how to say that like, like that you are attracted to him sexually, but he wasn't attracted to you sexually.
So when we were married, he was attracted to me sexually. Like we had a good sex life. And people I mean, I get asked that all the time.
You do not have to share any, like...
you're good. I won't go much beyond that. But all aspects of our marriage, we were very content and and part of part of what I believe, contributed to the fact that we had a good sex life is that we were so emotionally connected, because there is something about the emotional side of things that can lead to a good sex life. And he's always said, He's like, I've never been attracted to another woman. You were the only one when I met you. There was something about you that I
was like, who is this girl? I need to know her. And so that kind of held on until he had the affair. And then he was, it was like, blatantly obvious, he was not attracted to me any more. And that's when it really, that's when things got hard. And I thought I would be okay with it. him not being attracted to me because we even dated again after we got divorced as nuts as that is.
What?!? Say more about that.
So yeah. And, and that, for me was really hard. And Steve, putting me in that situation. It was hard for him to feel like I could have somebody that was attracted to me. And he was keeping me from that. He was keeping me from having somebody. So yeah, we dated again. He so he had an affair. He moved in with the guy right after I left because we were living in Oklahoma at the time. And I was like, I don't know anybody here. I need support. I moved home to Boise.
You went from Belize to Oklahoma?
We went Belize, Colorado, Oklahoma.
You took it in stages. It's probably good that you had Colorado before Oklahoma.
Oklahoma is not Belize.
No, it was not. I'm always like, I never want to go back to Oklahoma, but I would probably be fine with Oklahoma. Yeah, so he had a partner that moved in right after I left, the man he had an affair with great guy super nice. And I was glad because I knew Steve was in a good place. So I was glad somebody was there to kind of I went and stayed with them one weekend. It was all weird. There's so many weird stories.
But it's so juicy.
Yeah. But then Steve kept saying, Well, I think I'm gonna move to Boise. Like he kept bringing it up. And I called him one night because I was dating. We're divorced, I was dating. I said, Listen, I'm falling in love with somebody else. If you are moving to Boise for me, you better do it now. Like, come home and do it now. And he called me back the next morning and he said, I'm coming back. I can't leave the church. I can't leave you. I just too, it's all too muddled. I'm not
okay. And I said, Okay, than quit your job and come home. And he said, Okay, I'm quitting. And the day he quit, a job opened up in Boise with the same company and they transferred him.
Whoa. So this was meant to be.
The conversations y'all have, like, the the bold conversations, that's really impressive.
I always tell people, I'm like, you need to have hard conversations, but you need to know what it is you're feeling and what it is you kind of want out of that before you go into it. And also think somewhat of the other person's perspective going into it how they're feeling. But I don't shy away from those conversations. Because Brenee Brown always says, clear is kind and unclear is unkind. And I firmly believe that that if I can be clear, then we can have a good, kind conversation.
Yeah, I think it's remarkable how you are aware of what you need and your feelings and then your courage to express those things.
And communicate them.
Yeah, it is scary. Like I, I know, it's scary. I have felt those feelings. And there's still conversations that I know I need to have right now that are scary, but I need to know I'm ready to have them. So it's a very real thing. But yeah, so he moved back and we dated for six months. And it was...
And you had Penny. She's like an infant.
We had Penny. She's two. She was two when we got divorced. terrible twos. Yeah, she's always been a really good kid. I always say Heavenly Father sent us a really easy kid because he knew enough stuff to go through.
She makes great bracelets.
She does make great bracelets,
How much did prayer play into these decisions that you were making?
So much. And I really firmly believe that, through prayer, and faith, we can understand a lot. And I think we question our own intuition, which I firmly believe is just God talking to us, Heavenly Father speaking to us, the Holy Ghost. And I feel like we question that so often. And so we stop hearing it, which we're
taught in church. But really, it just comes down to listening to yourself and feeling your feelings, embrace all of the feelings, process them, journal about them and understand them. And it will get you to where you need to go. And I firmly believe that we negate our own intuition, and we question it and we hash it out, way more than we need to instead of listening, pondering, and then when you know, act, act when you feel it's right.
So this might be hard to answer in retrospect, but when you decided to like ask your husband like, Hey, if you're in this, like, or your ex husband like, but come, let's try this again. Let's date was that like a fear-based thing? Like I'm afraid to lose him? Or is that like a faith-based thing? Like what like, where were those desires to try again, coming from?
It was based in the fact that I had made a commitment to a marriage. And I wanted to make sure we had made the right choice. And putting another six months or a year towards knowing for sure that we had made the right decision was worth it. It was worth it to both of us to explore that and make sure we knew where we were. So we we literally went back to dating again. I was I'm I'm ridiculously straight edge. And I was like, Listen, we're not
married, there's no sex. There's no any of these other things. We're not exploring those. This is back to dating. Like before we were married.
Pick me up at six.
Meet my parents.
And honestly, my whole family's getting to know him on a new level at this point. We're all rehashing this relationship. I'm sure my parents were dieing, that I dated him again. I know it probably kill them. But we did it. And yeah, it was just an interesting process. And I think Steve needed that clarity. We both needed that clarity of knowing it's okay to be done. Like we can create a new relationship that works for us. And that's what we have. I always tell people he's like my
brother. Cuz I get people who, who say, well, you must still be in love with him or he's in love with you. And I'm like, we're really not. He really just feels like my brother. I care and love him that deeply. But he is not i'm not attracted to him on any level. And I cannot imagine being married to him again. But, but he is a part of my life. And he's somebody I care deeply about.
Yeah, I really admire just your way of approaching all this like I think about when I was 24 and I, and I, that girl I had broken up with me, the one who didn't miss me when she was on vacation. And I graduated from BYU and went to Mexico for the summer. And I like missed her so much. Like, I missed her, missed her, missed her. And I, like would email her and she'd like, politely respond. But like, obviously, it was like keeping
me at arm's length. Then when I came back, I like really wanted, like, try and get back together with her. And then I had this moment, where I was like, watching a movie and like it like this very strong prompting came and was like, if you really care about her, you'll just let her go. Like, you won't hold on to this anymore. But a lot of what I was doing was because I was afraid. Like, I was like, afraid of being alone. Like, it sounds like you weren't acting out of fear.
I wasn't afraid, I knew I would be okay. And that's one of the things I felt through all of this is I knew I would be okay. And I also allowed myself the time to process and to understand and to not diminish those feelings, but to embrace them, because I, I had to feel them. This man had had an affair. He left me for a man. And it was okay. It was okay that I was sad, was okay that I now had to rehash my whole life and rethink what I thought it was going to be. And also make
it work for me. The things I was scared of, is how it would impact my daughter. And there was at one point that I was sitting there is a really weird situation, how we got here, but I was in a hotel room, Steph and Penny were napping on the bed, and I was reading books, and I just had this very strong feeling of knowing that my daughter was going to be okay. And everything was going to be fine there. And I was like, okay, we, we're gonna be fine.
We're gonna figure this out. And I firmly believe that Penny, I mean, she's baptized, she's being raised in the church. But she also has this whole other view of life that she gets to experience with her dad. And I just always think this girl is going to know how to love people, and how to embrace others, and she's going to be a force for good. And that makes me super excited. But I was also, the other things that I was worried about was like, I've been a stay at home mom. And
that was my plan. I wanted to be home with her during those little years. So there were things like that, that I was afraid of, but it wasn't necessarily about losing my husband. And I also realized I could still have a relationship with Him, which was really rethinking the whole divorce process, because people don't...
That's what I was gonna say, it seems like it didn't work for you. So you just like scrapped the rulebook. And we're like, let's build something that works for us and our weird situation. Like, let's take what we know, take the existing love we have and put a structure under it that works, even if people think it's weird.
Yeah. And be open to having conversations about how that's going to look for us. Because we haven't done it before. And neither of us know what we're doing. We're gonna make mistakes, and to give each other grace in those mistakes and say, Hey, this really made me uncomfortable. We need to not do that, or at least not right now. This isn't, cool right now. Maybe we can have these
conversations later. And that's honestly, what we encourage people to do is we're not telling you to do things like we did. I firmly believe, believe people can make mixed orientation marriages work. I had a wonderful marriage for seven years. I, we were so connected. I don't believe it's for everybody, though. And I also believe that having a co-parent that you can have over for Sunday dinner and host a podcast with and who works for Steve works for my for my husband, like, like, that's not
going to work for everybody. And that's okay, we have a different situation, with my husband's ex, a completely different situation. And so we just really encourage people to figure out what works for you. You don't have to fit in to some mold of how this looks. And I feel like you guys understand that. Steve understands that, like we get it, you need to figure out who you were created to be and lean into that. Embrace it fully.
Beautiful.
So Jessica, when are you writing your book, just feel your feelings and live your life.
There you go. It's coming. I keep, when I was coming today, I was like, man, I need to talk to these guys about book writing and how you do that, because it's so inspiring. And it's such a great opportunity that you give people.
You know what you're good at? You aren't good at feeling multiple emotions at the same time, even if they're supposed to be contradictory. You're a lot like, you're you're good at giving them space and realizing that you can. That's cool. That's a really, yeah, I keep noticing that you're like I was, I would like you were happy and sad and faithful and fearful all at the same time. And not like pushing any feeling away, even if it hurt or was confusing.
Yeah. That's where we learn. That's where we get to learn about ourselves. And I firmly believe that's when we get to understand what it is Heavenly Father would have us do what our heavenly parents want for us, who they created us to be. And when we embrace that, we just get to hear all those feelings a little more clearly. We get to feel them more clearly. There's nothing wrong with feeling any of the feelings
and they can coexist. It's so weird people when I go through my divorce, like, why do you have? How do you have so much peace around you and like, I don't just have peace right now. Like, there's a lot of anger and upset, like, I'm upset, and I'm sad. I'm really sad. But I also know there are things in my life that are really good and that I get to embrace and find happiness and joy. And so I get I get to have all of these things I can, I can hold it all.
Yeah, and that's such a mature way to be, to be like, hold all these things at once. So what I'm sensing from you is like, there's no bitterness. There's not like, I wish things had been different, just like a gratitude for the journey. Maybe that's just how you are naturally. But if there's someone who like wants to be that way, how do you do that?
uh, you have to start doing some deep diving into getting to know yourself. I always say I teach classes about being bold. And for me that is, comes down to getting to know who you are, what you want, where your pain points are in life right now. And, and embracing those and figuring out and taking ownership of them, like take ownership of your life, because I could have just said this was all Steve's fault, and thrown it all on him. And
all these things. In fact, somebody kept telling me somebody very close to me, after we got divorced, kept saying, I'm so sorry, I'm so sorry. I said, you have to stop telling me that you're sorry. Because I knew what I was, I knew I was married to a gay man. I knew I was in this situation. I have to take ownership of that. And when I have ownership of that, I get the power to continue forward, I get to have the sense of control and power. I can't control everything, but I still get to
take ownership. And there's so much power in that. So I really firmly believe that it it comes down to getting to know yourself and listening to yourself. And being very in tune with that. And there are things you there are moments that I have to say I, I need space, like I don't just everyday show up saying hey, this is great. I can do this. I also very much like I'll tell Steve, I'll tell Matt, my husband, I need some time right
now. I can't do this. I'm gonna go, I'm gonna go do whatever I'm going for a long run, I'm going to go out with my friends. Because I can't process this right now. I'm going to take some time and then come back to it. And realizing that that's okay.
You know, one of the phrases I've said a lot is honoring agency and honor, and honoring other people's agency. Yes, I have a new phrase that I got from you just now, which is owning your agency. Like just really owning the choices that we make, and then living with those decisions, and then realizing that we have the power to continue making choices in the future.
I love it. So good.
So what is it like now that you're married to a straight guy?
Or a bisexual. I don't know.
He's pretty straight. It's great. I mean, it has a whole different set of challenges that come into play.
It's a new vibe.
Yeah, it's interesting, because I always say, remarriage has been so much harder for me than the divorce was. And maybe it's because I kind of was realistic about the divorce and the possibility of those things. I don't know. But remarriage has been hard. And I understand why so many second marriages end in divorce, and quickly end in divorce. Because I was there a year into our marriage, I left. I was like I am done. And it's, it's hard, because well, we're blending families and all of
that. So it just comes with a different set of problems, a different set of issues, but it's fun. We have a great time together. And he is a very, very good man. So it's, it's wonderful. And I sometimes that I feel bad that I go and share this love for the LGBTQIA community. Like how does my husband, my new husband feel about this because it's so connected to my ex husband, right? And he's right there with me. He's just like, we need to do this. There needs to be love
and awareness. We need to help people. And he just is right there with me. I mean, he's loving. He will say I love Steve, I love your ex-husband. And so yeah, I married a good guy. So it's, it's pretty awesome.
Jessica, I'm picturing a listener who is LGBTQ and is in, either dating someone seriously or in a marriage and they're thinking about telling their partner or spouse, what what advice would you give for that person?
I mean, my first thought is tell them, tell them. It can go many ways. When you tell them, it's probably going to be really hard. But it's through the hard things that you either get to draw closer to your partner, your spouse and find out your true colors like the basis of a relationship is its best or relationships are at their best when we know who the other person is truly when we know what it is. What makes them tick who they are. Like that's
when the magic happens. That's when you get to love yourself fully and love the other person fully. So I mean, that's obviously something so individual to each person, but that is what I, I honestly believe that if you can tell them, it's going to bring you peace no matter what, no matter what comes, you're going to find more peace and clarity than just suppressing who you are.
Yeah. And along with that, I feel like you can only heal from pain that you're willing to acknowledge. So if you're brave enough to dig deep into really what's causing, like, take a big scoop out of that pain, then how much more are you able to heal from? Yeah, that makes sense?
Yeah, what I tell people, because sometimes I'll get emails, and they'll say, Hey, I'm gay. And I haven't told my wife, what do I do? And I always tell them, you know, I don't know, like, my job is you should do in your marriage, but at some point, they're gonna know, like, they're gonna know, like, this secret isn't going to stay forever. And so I say, you know, it's not should I, but when.
Yes, and they're feeling that tension. Whether you guys are acknowledging that or not in your marriage or in your relationship, you can feel it, you can feel it. And I could feel the times when Steve when something was going on. And he wasn't telling me I knew, I knew that he was struggling with something or that something had happened that he wasn't telling
me about. And so I could, whether he vocalized that or not, I knew, but when he told me he was so much better, because I knew what was actually happening. Instead of making up some story in my head, Oh, my gosh, he's had an affair. Oh, my goodness, he's done this or that. Or he's going to tell me we're getting divorced. But even if he had told me those things,
it was easier to know. Every time he told me something that had happened, it was easier to know exactly what it was so that I knew how to deal with it.
Well, and you don't have to live in like, a you don't have to make up fake scenarios that hurt your feelings. Live in that paranoia.
And I always just felt grateful when he told me the hard things. And also, I mean, I loved him more. Every time we went through those things. I just loved him so much more. And I also it's because I understood him more I could see his hurt and pain, I think of a couple of times he went on work trips and ended up at like gay clubs, or in sketchy parts of town that he was not good things were happening. And he wasn't having affairs, but it was on the verge
of those things. And just appreciating that he trusted me enough to tell me. And it wasn't always easy to hear. Most of the time it wasn't. But again, it wasn't about me it was understanding who he was and where he was at. So I mean, yeah, you're exactly right. But we can't tell them what to do. But there is some peace that comes from being honest. And there is a tension there that people feel.
Yeah. And just this acknowledgement that if someone is struggling, even if you don't know what it is like that affects you. Yeah. And it's, it's easier in the long run, if you just know what's going on.
That comes down to anything in relationship, not even big things. You know, I just keep thinking. So people often ask me, well, how do you talk to Penny about this? And, you know, what age did Penny find out and all of these things, and we had a conversation about that, Steven, I did. And I said, listen, I want her to know, from a young age. I don't want her I don't want to tell her when she's a teenager. I don't want her to find out. Just wanted to know, like, this is just who you are.
And so that's something that a lot of people ask, and they're scared like, whether it's their niece or nephew or it's their own kids how to have those conversations. And I always just tell people, you be very honest, on an age appropriate level. Penny's first experience was she saw Steve kiss one of her boyfriend, one of his boyfriends, and she thought it was super funny the first night and then the second night, she saw him kiss him again. And she goes Daddy, boys aren't supposed
to kiss boys. And she was like three. And it was just so interesting to have her pick up on that. And she was a little, like, unsure about it to begin with. She wasn't sure how to respond to that. And it really kind of hurt Steve. I said, Listen, she is three. She is processing something. She loves you. Just, it's going to be okay. And he was also nervous because I'm still active in the church. And he's there's a little part of him that's going well, what are you going to
teach her about this? And so we just told her listen, sometimes boys love boys, and sometimes girls love girls, and sometimes boys love girls and whatever. It doesn't matter. It's just about love. And in her three year old brain that was enough to to go forward. She was okay with that. And as she's gotten older, of course, we've had more conversations. And I think now it's funny because she's been around drag queens and stuff. And now she knows what those
are. And it's like, clicking of like, ooooh, they weren't just dressing up for Halloween or a party. This is a thing that they do. And I just love that those conversations happen and that she knows who her dad is and that she gets to love him as he is. So I think there's a lot of power in that in opening up those conversations.
So Jessica, if people want to hear more of your story where can they go?
So if you go to our podcast Husband In Law it's on any podcasting platform, we literally go through our story from beginning to end and Matt's story beginning to end and until now, and you can hear all of the things. It's kind of a different setup. It's more I always say like the people that like true crime stories, podcasts. Because it's just the story. We do just share all of our stories there in hopes to help people understand that it's okay to embrace a life that isn't what
you thought it would be. And to understand that it's okay to be who you are. And to have these relationships that may look a little weird to other people. And that's okay. So we are there. We are on Instagram, Husband In Law. And then yeah, we also have a coloring book right now if anyone is interested., that is all it has queer terms in there that you can go and start up conversations with your kids. We had one little while we had a dad that reached out to us, they said, We got a coloring book.
And my daughter opened up to I think she's around nine. And she was reading through all the terms that she said, Dad, that's what I am. I'm not one right there. And he said, he just like got all teary and was so grateful that she felt seen. And she felt normal because she should, she should feel normal. And so it's just kind of a fun, easy way to open up conversations and help people feel seen.
Yeah, love that.
Well, thank you so much for sharing your heart, your story, your boldness with us. I've loved this conversation.
Thanks so much.
Thanks for having me, guys.
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