Welcome to questions from the closet. I'm Ben Schilaty.
And I'm Charlie Bird. Each episode, we discuss a question that we commonly get asked as LGBTQ plus Latter-day Saints.
We are not trying to answer this question or come to a consensus, but simply sharing our perspectives. Today's question is, what if loved ones are disappointed in my choices?
Ben and I are not terribly diverse, and we share many opinions and life experiences. For example, we both like meeting new people.
However, there are some pretty big differences. For example, people WANT to meet Charlie, but they GET to meet me.
Go ahead.
Well, people will like, email the questions in the closet, like, Hey, can I meet you guys sometime? And I'll be like, there's no way I'll ever meet Charlie. He's busy and doesn't even respond to my text. So you can come meet me.
Yeah.
And I always have people meet me in my office at work, because I don't know if you're a murder. So.
So if they are, they might as well do it in your office at work?
I feel like they're less likely to murder me at work with all those people around.
That's true.
And also, I mean, they have to like to pass by the secretaries. And it just feels a lot safer. Like I feel like if you're gonna murder someone--you like walk into the WILK at BYU. Like, maybe I won't.
I I feel like that took a dark twist. I thought this was gonna be about how everyone wants to meet me.
Everyone does want to meet you. But they get to meet me. I'm like happy to meet people. So, but I like not going to go and like I'm already at my office. I was just like, yeah...
That's funny.
But uh, yeah, before I had an office people--and this is like before even the podcast--I would like have people like, come to my house or like a park. And that always felt kind of sketchy to me.
I really like meeting people impromptu.
Like on the street?
Yeah. Yeah. I like that. More than like that, like an organized meeting. It feels so formal to me, or someone's like, why do you want to meet me? Why is this formal?
You know why people want to meet you.
No, tell me why Ben, tell me more.
I haven't figured out myself.
Well, we would like to provide a variety of voices and perspectives. So today we're joined by Jessica Wells.
Hi, I'm Jessica.
Hey, Jessica. Well tell us a little bit about yourself.
I'm from Nova Scotia, Canada originally, which makes me exotic.
Really?
Yeah.
You know, I'm half Canadian.
Oh my gosh. Congrats.
I think Nova Scotia is the most...
That is the most exotic Canada.
Yeah, it's even in a different timezone.
It really is. I've had people ask me how close to Russia it is before because it sounds like it should not be in Canada,
I think of Novosibirsk.
Or like supernova.
Anyway, you're from Canada, we got derailed quickly.
Let's see, I've been here in Utah for 10 years. I went to BYU in my undergraduate program, and I went to the U to get my master's in social work. So right now I'm a therapist. I work up in Bountiful.
Bountiful, huh?
Yeah. Yeah.
Great. Well, how do you self identify?
Oh, I identify as bisexual. But my last two serious relationships have been with women. So...
All right, well, so Jessica, you and I know each other from when we used to work together.
That's right.
I did my internship while I was doing my Master's in social work at BYU at the LDS Family Services in Salt Lake.
Yeah.
And my shift was from 1pm to 9pm on Wednesdays, I wouldn't always have time for dinner. And so you would feed me.
That's right. Candy from my drawer. So I don't know how nutritious that really.
So it wasn't just candy you had like those--like vegetable puffs?
Oh, I did. Yeah. Like the veggie straws. Yeah.
Those are so good.
They were really good. And sometimes you'd even give me like a whole Pop Tart.
Oh, yeah, I did have Pop Tarts. I call that "Pop Tart Therapy."
It was great and my office was...
Ben, you sound like a, like a little child.
A whole Pop Tart. But it really was incredibly kind. And my office was larger than yours. Sometimes we would have to swap and you were like "Eat all the candy you want." I'd be like doing therapy and I was chowing down on candy.
Yeah.
How long were you at LDS family services?
Oh, I was there for two years about.
Wow.
Fantastic.
How old are you? Is that okay? You look so young. Like, I didn't think you would have that much experience.
How old do you think I am?
24.
Oh, my gosh, thank you. No, I'm almost 29 I'll be 29 in
I'll get there.
Wow, I used to be 29. May. Anyway, so Jessica, when you and I knew each other, I didn't know you were bisexual.
No, I did not. I was I was pretty closeted at that point in time. But I remember asking you questions all the time about like, all the stuff you were involved in and like the church's stance on, on everything so and I was like, I was like secretly digging. I was prying.
Yeah. And I had no idea. I just thought you were just interested in me in my life.
I mean, I was--yeah, you're interesting.
Oh, thanks. That's why people want to meet me.
Yeah, yeah. Just keep on telling yourself that.
Oh, okay I will. So what what's been happening in the last like, two years? What what led you to coming out?
So I started a relationship with a friend of mine. And it was kind of unexpected. It wasn't I wasn't planning on it. In fact, when I kind of realized that I was bisexual, I kind of had put that to the side and I was like, well, you know, I can just date men, I don't need to date women. It's easier date men. And you know...
Is it though? Is it easier to date men?
In the community, yes, as as a person who knows, you know? So I just had kind of like decided that was the route I was going to take, and I wasn't going to pursue any relationship with women, because like that actually would take work. And so if I just didn't put the work into it, it wasn't gonna happen. And I would just, you know, continue on my merry way--present as straight because that was just it seemed easier at the time and seemed easier with my family, seemed easier
with friends. And so that's kind of what I did is--I dated men for a really long time. And they were great.
That definitely seems easier.
Yeah, yeah, for sure. That was how it went for a long time until I started hanging out with a friend of mine. And then, you know, it came out that she was bisexual as well. And then we kind of just got really close really fast and developed those feelings. And it was just really unexpected and interesting and engaging and exciting in a lot of ways and, and so our relationship kind of formed out of that, which was very
unexpected and not planned. And I didn't have to work for it, and caught me really off guard, but definitely, like changed my life in a really impactful and meaningful way. I am so much happier for it now. I didn't realize how happy I could be kind of accepting all those parts of me. So...
That's awesome. So you weren't planning on coming out? You weren't planning on dating women, it just kind of happened.
Yep. It was. It just like fell in my lap, so to speak. And it wasn't wasn't a plan for sure.
So what was the reaction of your family when you told them you were dating a woman?
That took a long time, actually, so I had almost dated her for like, eight months before I came out to my parents. And it was a it was very unexpected. I was going to like wait for like years, I was like, determined that like, I would be close to marrying this person if I was going to tell my family about it. My friends were different. I could tell my friends, I felt pretty comfortable and safe. But my parents I was like, I don't know, my dad would be fine. But my mom I was like really
concerned about. And so I was I was just not going to do it. But I I told my mom at one point, I felt pretty strongly that I should tell her that I wasn't actively going to church anymore. And so I came out with that. And then I at the time, the girl I was dating, I told her that and she took that as a kind of a springboard to tell her family that we were dating and I was like, "Well, okay, if you're going to tell your family, I feel like really bad, just like, keeping this from
mine." And so it was like a week after I told my parents, I wasn't really actively going to church anymore that I told, told them about her and I dating. And it was it was hard because I didn't want it to be connected to why I wasn't going to church anymore. Because they were actually very separate reasons. It wasn't you know, and I have had no animosity towards the church whatsoever. It was simply like, it wasn't an uplifting place for me anymore. And it wasn't in relation to my
sexuality. So coming out, at the same time, I told my parents that around the same time was actually like, I didn't want it to be associated, but it kind of ended it was anyways. Yeah...
But it was. That's a lot of weight to hold on to for a really long time.
Yes, yeah.
This whole relationship and not being able to share that with some of the people you're you're closest to, and then also having like a faith transition in the midst of all of these huge life decisions. Yeah.
Yeah. That was a lot. It was an it was an interesting time in my life, for sure. It was a lot of secrets. It was a lot of things to hold for a long time.
What was it like when you like, let go of those secrets?
Well, I like to do it in stages. So my parents I told first, and then I didn't tell my siblings, I have four older half siblings. I didn't tell them for another, like five months, six months after that, because I was also worried about how that would be received. Some of them I wasn't worried about but I tried to keep it on the on the down low because I knew that if I told one person, I would have to tell everybody. So I....
A lot of gossips in your family?
That doesn't sound very Canadian at all.
I thought Canadians were nice.
Like you tell somebody something and it's just like, the likelihood of it getting out..
It gets away from you.
It's far more so I wanted to wait it out a little more.
Everyone Nova Scotia knows each other.
All the LDS members in Nova Scotia know each other. That's a fact.
Yeah. So I'm assuming you're on the show because your family wasn't supportive? I'm just going to awkwardly jump into that.
A lot of them were really supportive. I was surprised honestly, like it caught me off guard because it was a it was a big worry I held on to for a long time. Like I think I was more worried and I didn't give them enough credit. But definitely in that I had a family member too--that was it was challenging for a long time. It's gotten a lot better. This past year. It's gotten a lot better, but there was a lot of hard conversations and a lot of a lot of guilt for where I was at.
So you don't have to air out any dirty laundry, but what would you like to tell us about what was hard about that?
So I grew up very, very LDS and I was very, very active in the church. I worked at LDS Family Services right? And then...
We had a blast.
Yeah, we did. It was a blast.
Eating Pop Tarts.
It's true. I still love Pop Tarts. Okay.
They're very good.
And I loved I loved LDS Family Services, I probably would have stayed there forever if I could of. And I also served a mission in Orlando, Florida. And I was probably, you know, my mom, for example, considered me like, very strong in the church. I set like a really good example, too. I have like 16 nieces and nephews, and there's always a lot of pressure on me from a very young age to kind of uphold that.
Like set a standard be the example.
Yeah, my parents were related me to Mary Poppins growing up, I was practically perfect in every way.
You're just a little spoonful of sugar.
So, so coming out and going through that faith transition all the same time was really challenging, because all of a sudden, I like I like, broke a facade. And my mother, for example, like, made a comment of like, she didn't know who I was anymore. And I'm like, I'm, I'm the same. I'm not--I haven't changed. I just there are things that I've withheld.
Yeah.
So I think that was certainly the most like, that was the hardest relationship to navigate when I came out. So it was good that I came out to her first before, I think everybody else because I think that was the one that needed the most time and the most work, and it still has its challenges occasionally.
See, it sounds like you didn't really meet your family's expectations of you.
Yeah, it's, it's interesting, because they can be--they're--my mom is can be so accepting. But at the same time, I think it's hard because she had, yeah, this ideal or this expectation of what she wanted for my life or where she wanted me to be and where she thought I would be based on like, all the things that I had done and gone through.
And then that's where that disappointment entered in.
Yeah, for sure.
And what was it like for you to have your mom say, I don't even know you anymore?
Really hard. That was a really, really hard conversation. I remember one conversation in particular, like, I remember, I was talking to her, I was driving. And yeah, we were talking kind of about that or feeling like she would say things that just made me feel really, really guilty about the choices I was making. And, and I knew that she didn't mean to make me feel that way. Like I knew she wasn't saying it to be
hurtful. But it was and I had to, like, stop her and be like, "You can't complain to me about me. You can't do that, like, I can't be your therapist, in dealing with issues for me." And it was just like, it was a really hard conversation that like, that hurt me as much to like talk about or say that as much as it hurt her, I think to hear that and, and realize that our dynamic had changed or shifted.
It also kind of sounds like as you were talking about this relationship that you were in, and how freeing it was and how much more yourself you felt. That made it more of a contrast when you're in a way doing better than you ever have. And then but the people you love and care about the most are like retracting.
Yeah. Oh, yeah. Like I remember dreading, you know, I would call my mom once a week, I remember dreading kind of calling her a little bit, I knew that she dreaded it too. That was like, the hard thing is like, it was hard for her to have these conversations, it was hard for me to have these conversations. And at the same time, you're right, like I absolutely was, like, happier than I'd ever been. And I would like try to tell her that and like she couldn't, like accept
that. Because at the same time, she was like, in her own grieving process. And like, I was trying my best to honor that as well. And to like, understand that and understand that she had her own place that she was at and, and that was okay. But it was still like, it was so hard because I wanted things to just be okay between us.
Almost like, how can happiness exist outside of her frame of reference?
Right.
Yeah.
Right.
Jessica, you were so gracious right now, you're like you were saying that you need to give her the space to think and process things as well.
Yeah.
That's a really kind thing to give your mom.
Yeah, I mean, I love her. But also, it's what she needed, you know. And I had to understand that as much as I could.
That reminds me, we have said this a couple times before, but when we did that episode of the stages of coming out, Ben, what are the stages?
Well, there's six of them. There's identity. I don't remember the ...!
Go back and listen to it. But but but ...
Identity synthesis, synthesis.
Identity synthesis. Well, like, we've talked about how like, parents, loved ones, like even allies kind of go through that same stages where it's almost like starts with like, fear or anger, and then doubt and then like grief, and they're moving through this process. And it sounds like you did a really good job, understanding that, and realizing that you've been working on this for a really long time, but your parents hadn't. So you gave them the benefit of the doubt, you gave
them space. And it also sounds like you gave them like a lot of vulnerability. And like you kept trying for this relationship. Like even though you're dreading talking to your mom, like you still wanted to build that relationship and try to help her see you as you were, not as who she thought you were.
Yeah, I think I think that's accurate.
Like huge props to you for that because that that can be difficult.
Yeah. And it was and I think, you know, it was difficult for me it was difficult for her too because I think she also wanted that, right? She wanted to get to know me. And like she really values honesty. And so I think it was also almost kind of felt like a betrayal that I hadn't been open sooner.
Yeah.
And so it was like this, it was there was a lot of trying to meet each other where we were at or where we were both kind of like hurting in different ways.
That's actually a really common theme. I think, in parents and in loved ones. It's like, I wish you would--like the betrayal that they hadn't known sooner. And I feel like I encountered that a lot.
Definitely. It's interesting, as you're talking about all this, like, my immediate family has never been like disappointed in my choices, I think it is, IN my choices.
We've been having an argument or discussion. is it disappointed BY my choices, or disappointed IN my choices?
They probably both have--this is why I say a different connotation. Anyway, prepositions are hard.
Not as hard as pronouns.
Anyway, my family was never really just disappointing cuz I've like made the choices, I think that if they could have prescribed like I would have made. So I guess that just makes it easier for them than me. But I remember when I first came out to my parents, like they weren't really ready to have the conversation. And we didn't really have like an in depth conversation for like, seven years until after I came out to them. And that was like, more me than then like they kept
bringing it up. But during those seven years, like my dad was reading blog posts and reading stories about LGBTQ Latter-day Saints. And so when I was ready, like he was prepared, but my mom like she hadn't done that. But then like, as soon as I like, opened up my heart, like, like a switch flipped immediately. And she like, kind of got it and was like, "Ben, I'm with you. Like, whatever you need to do. We're okay."
Yeah, I kind of had my sister prepare my family. And I Yeah, like, this wasn't like a strategy of mine. But like the Yeah.
That's awesome. don't know if she really needed to, because their, their reactions were so much better than I could have ever imagined. But for about a year and a half, she was like planting little seeds purposely because she knew--both my sisters knew, but my parents didn't. So she was kind of helping. I think there's two aspects to this, because one of them is like, what if they're disappointed in who I am? And then what if they're disappointed in what I'm doing with that? So there's almost
like two sides. But a lot of it revolves around coming out, right? So it's like, this is who I am. But also like, even coming out publicly, like I talked to people, they're like, well, I want to come out, but my parents don't want me to. And there's like, a lot of like, it seems like mess surrounding that. And one of the things I tried really hard to do coming out is to be
very intentional about it. And kind of like you were saying, understand, I like okay, these are the things I know, I have a traditional--well, I guess we're not really traditional because my parents are divorced, but like, my parents grew up conservative, and LDS, with not really any education exposure surrounding LGBTQ issues. So like, how am I going to build this coming out approach in a way that's going to be palatable to them in a way that's going to be like understandable for them.
And I think sometimes it's hard to do that. Because like, when you're like, so stressed and like you want to come out, you want liberation, it's really easy to like be reactive about that approach. But I think it's like the healthiest people I've seen have been very intentional, and like gone with forgiving approach as they come out, which is kind of weird. And it's actually kind of sad in a way that like, we have to be so forgiving, as we are like doing
something so brave. But but it makes things so much better, I think. I was talking to this one kid once and he was talking about how he came out. And his family was really unsupportive and just like incredibly reactive, and it caused a huge fight. And I was like, I wonder how he came out. So I asked him and he's like, "Well, I was like Mom, Dad, I'm gay. And I have fiance and we're getting marrie in two weeks, and there'
nothing you can do about it". A d I was like, okay, like, lik , like, let's kind of unravel so e of that. Because, like the w y you present something, it s almost like you kind of have o market your coming out to yo r parents. And but it helps y u know, you can give it in dos s or in a way that saves t e relationshi first like, 30 times I came out, I'm like, "I'm gay. And I like
Jesus." Like it ended to be like a conversation, but like my testimony and belief in the church, like "I'm gay, and here's why--here's what I love about the church." Yeah.
This is authentic to me. But...
Yeah, I love that, though.
So Jessica, I have a question. So yesterday, one of my friends texted me--a very good friend of mine and her brother and sister in law, who I also know--she texts me that they've just decided to leave the church. And so she texted me this like a short text like "so and so has decided to leave the church." And I didn't know how to respond right away. And so I just paused for like 20 seconds. And then I texted back. "I want
to hear their story." What like what do you wish your family had done when you talked about your change in faith and your orientation?
Some of my family members did this really well--like my sister. And to be fair, she had like a better I don't know, it was a better environment to like, ask these
questions. But as soon as I came out to her, we were on FaceTime and and she just asked me about you know, who I was dating at the time and like what I liked about her and like, like, almost like didn't skip a beat and same with like a couple other family members I had just really like just immediately went into, "Oh, yeah, tell me tell me about your relationship." And that was really nice. Like, it was just it was very relieving it was.
But it also it felt really validating because like we talked about earlier, like I was at a place in my life where I was the happiest I've ever been. And I and I felt like I was in a really healthy relationship for the, like one of the first times in my life. And I was just, like, stoked to be me and being with somebody who brought out the best parts of me. And so to have people kind of ask about that, like, I was like, so excited to share it, right.
Like, I was so excited to be like, "Oh, like, let me tell you about all these cool things that I've been learning about myself and all these cool things I've been learning in this relationship and, and how great it is." And that was probably like the best best response--kind of similar to to what you asked, you know, tell me about this, what's going on, you know, is it's so validating to be able to share your story.
Where there were other members of my family that I didn't, you know, get to have that conversation with. A lot of it was kind of addressing their shock, or their, how they were coping or dealing with it, which I was fine to do, but definitely a different approach.
Yeah.
How much of the disappointment you faced do you think came from, like religious expectations?
A fair amount actually, like, I think a lot of it was tied to to that. I obviously there there are some aspects of that tied into my sexuality. But more surprised, I got more surprised about my sexuality, and more disappointment on the regards of like, how I was living in accordance with my faith. And then they tied that to my sexuality, which was what it was.
So thinking of my family, like, I know that if I like came home with a fiance, and I was like, "This is my fiance, we're getting married." He's a guy, of course. "And I don't believe in the church anymore." Like my family would just like love me, embrace me. They'd want to meet him and know everything. And like, like, they'd ask those kinds of good questions. But I also believe that like, they would be disappointed.
Sure. Yeah.
And I don't really know like, how to fix that. I'm not sure if that's something that can be fixed.
Would you be disappointed in yourself?
I don't know. I think if I were at that point, no, because I try and be very congruous, congruent?
Incongruent.
I try and be congruent. Like, I try and make choices that align with my values. And so I don't think I would make a choice that didn't
Right. align with my values. So I think if I were making that choice, then I don't think that--I actually know, I wouldn't be disappointed. Because I would have gotten to a place where this feels like the right thing for me. So in this sense, disappointment, other people's disappointment comes from somebody else making choices that don't align with THEIR values.
Yes.
Are we allowed to assign values to someone else?
I think we just naturally do that.
Yeah, but I think we naturally should try not to, like or intentionally try not to.
Agreed. I think it's just human to be like, I have these values, you're not living my values, therefore, I'm disappointed in you.
Right. But But I think like, for like parents or family who are listening, that are maybe still struggling with that, like, maybe that's almost like a key indicator to see where things are, you know? Like, is my love and support for someone else, contingent upon whether or not they're living according to my own value set. And if that's the way it is, then you're going to be disappointed in a lot of people and people aren't going to share things with you. You know?
That's true, like my one sibling who was like, I feel like the most worried about me, he like knows the least, about my life.
Really? Actually, that's also true. In my case, for me, it's more like extended family or like people that I used to know because I don't really talk to anymore. They're like, it's more like assumptions about what I believe and what I'm doing, rather than knowing what's actually going on.
Right? I mean, that makes total sense to me, honestly, I feel the same about my family, right? If you are asking questions about my life, and you're interested in where I'm where I'm at, and what I'm going through, then you're going to learn a lot about me. If you're not asking those questions, or you're not open to receiving those kinds of answers, you're not going to hear a lot about me.
I think one of the most frustrating things for me is like the people are still disappointed by the existence of someone else. You know what I mean? Like, and I probably sense from this idea that being LGBTQ plus is a choice or is associated with some sort of choice. I mean, it is associated with choices. Like you have to be like, this is what I'm gonna do with who I am. But just even like, the idea of like, coming out and someone's like, "Oh,
this is so disappointing. And I'm so upset that my son or daughter is gay." I'm like, okay...
I'm sorry, that I was happy and my life is a tragedy to you.
I'm sorry that I exist, like, like, don't put people in that situation.
So Jessica, let's say there's just like for a listener who, who's in the same situation as your mom, and like, has an awesome daughter who's beautiful and smart and has awesome....
Really pretty eyes..
And great glasses and a really killer haircut actually.
Oh, yeah.
Wait, where were we going with that?
What advice would you give to someone who's in the position of similar to your mom?
Because well, let me just like, because your mom's not trying to hurt your feelings.
No, not at all. It's like she's trying her hardest, honestly. As I can, I can see exactly how hard she's trying. And it's a lot like she's--even now she's like, trying to understand me, she's trying to be involved in my life, she'll ask me questions more than she has in the past. So like, I can tell she's trying, it's just, it's still really hard for her,
right. And so, honestly, like, one of the biggest piece of advice I'd give is like, do your own work, so to speak, like so that you can be there for the people in your family that you care about, right? Is if you have things that you're trying to work through, if you have a grieving process, you need to go through because and that's normal. And that's good. And that's fine to do that work, you know, whether that's going to a therapist of your own, so you can kind of really hash that
out. Or whether that's just kind of like really looking at yourself writing about it, just kind of whatever you need to do to work through that so that you can be present and with your loved one, I think, I don't know. That that is what I would really like, right? Is is to have that. So I don't have to hold it when I'm talking with my mom. If that makes sense.
Yeah.
Because there are times where I have to, and that's okay, I can do that. And most of the time, and if I can't, then I set a boundary. But but yeah, I think I think that's what I would recommend is make sure you're doing your own work and looking at that, because it's it's okay to feel those things. But, you know, work on that.
So are you saying that parents and family shouldn't feel guilt that they're feeling disappointed in their child's choices?
No, I think when you have values that you believe are going to make people happy, right? When you have things that you're like, well, I want this life for you, because it's I believe that this life would bring you a lot of joy. And then that that individual in your family doesn't go down that path? Well, yeah, clearly, you're going to be like, "Oh, you know, maybe you're going to be maybe it's gonna be harder, or maybe you're going to suffer more." And that's hard for a
parent to see. It's hard to watch a child do something that the parent feels is going to be more difficult for them. And whether that is or not, it doesn't really matter. Because at the end of the day, that's how the parent feels is like I have this this vision for you, so to speak. Because everybody does that, right? Like I have the same things for my friends and my family members, I want the best for them. And and sometimes I get in my own head about what I believe that would
look like. So yeah, I think it's normal to have an expectation and have that expectation be burst because it's not your choice. And then be disappointed because, you know, that's no longer the path that they're on. And that's okay. And they're probably even happier for it. But, but there's still that dissonance, right. And so you need to you need time to grieve that that other life that you had imagined, so that you can be there with them in this life in this path, right?
So as we're talking about this, I'm realizing that I've been on the other side of this coin, where I've been disappointed in somebody else's life choices.
Definitely,
Like quite a few times. But the most dramatic one is with my dad. My parents got divorced when I was in high school, and my dad ended up leaving the church and he moved away. And I was really disappointed. I was angry, I was frustrated, like, there were a lot of ways that he was living that were not congruent with my values. And I was like, it was messy, it was really, really, really messy without getting
into any details. And over the course of a couple of years, we kind of got to the point where we were either--there was like discord in the present. Or we were living in the past. Like, the only things we could talk about that were, like, safe were things like, "Oh, dad, remember when I was six, and we went to ride horses and did this?" or
whatever. But anytime, like, we were dealing with the president, like, he was doing things that I didn't like, and I was doing things that he didn't like, and and like it was just like--whoa. So I and honestly that that continued, like, at least for me. And I think probably for him a little bit. I don't know, I'm not gonna say how he felt but like, up to like, through my mission, I got home from my
mission. And I was like, oh my gosh, like, I'm still in this awkward situation with my dad, where I'm like, I don't know who you are. I don't like the way you're living. And the only things we can connect on are things that happened 10 years ago, like this is awful. And I realized that like, by like superimposing my values on him, but like expecting him to be a certain way in order for him to like, earn my love. Or even this, like I was like, I don't want to condone what he's doing.
I kind of just threw all of that out one day. And I was like, You know what, I'm going to start a new relationship and see who my dad is now, and be okay with, like--I had, like, old dad what I used to consider, like, the way he used to be, you know, and I was like, that's awesome. Like, I had a really beautiful relationship with my dad. And like, now I don't so like, some of this is on me, like, I'm gonna have to like, make adjustments to the way I'm approaching this relationship.
And really, all I did was just start being interested in the things he was interested in. And like the people he was with, like the girls, he was going on dates with that, like, weren't my mom, and you know, and I was like, still really upset about that and was like, you know what? Like, my parents got divorced. And I'm gonna get over it and see who my dad is now.
And as I kind of like, was more involved in his current life, he started being involved in my current life and we ended up like learning about each other. And then there were still times where we connected on the past but it was like like a line that continued into the future because like, it wasn't just so awkward. I don't know. And I've seen this happen with like other like extended family members who have left the church and like, the way that people deal with that can either be like, "Hey,
how's your life? Are you happy? What are you doing?" And just like make things normal, or it can be like, what is like--if you go into a relationship and you're like, what a shame that they're different from me. What a shame that they left the church, well, then you're going to have a shameful relationship and you're not going to be proud of that relationship. There's my soapbox, hope you're okay with everything I said, Dad.
Well, I've just learned like I, you always tell me how self righteous I am, Charlie. And it's true. And I am trying to be better, but I'm still far from perfect in it. But I remember like, when I started the support group in Tucson, like my goal was to keep everyone in the church. And I was wildly unsuccessful. Like, keeping people in the church.
imagine love without an agenda. Like, Oh, my gosh, how how beautiful could the world be? If we loved people without a secret agenda? That'd be so nice. Ben you got to work on that.
Building off of that great comment, I had, I had this specific agenda. And then like, as the years went on, I had to like, realize that wasn't the right agenda. Like my agenda, like, like you said, was like to love people and be with them and be like, cheer for them when they were happy. And, and whatever they like, whenever good, was happy in their life like to be happy for them and want to hear about it.
Yeah. If your reason for reaching out to someone and so they come back to church... that sucks, you know?
Well, then it's all about you. Right?
Yeah.
It's not about them at all.
Yeah.
It's all about what you can do. And that's all that's all about how that makes you feel not about where they're at or what they want, or what's going to be best for them.
Right. And I keep thinking about this juxtaposition where you were that you say you were the happiest that you'd been. But like people were like, "Oh, she's sad. And she's on a bad path." And you're like, "Actually, I'm doing really well." Like, that's just so like, mind boggling. But that juxtaposition the contrast there. And yeah, like, like, what a beautiful illustration of how we should, like, believe what people say, if you're like, "Hey, I'm really happy, and I
feel better." And it's like, "Oh, you're not really happy. You don't really feel better." But you're like, "Yes, I do!" You know?
Right? And I mean, kind of going off what you said earlier, I've been in the position where I've been on the other side of that, where I'm like, "No, you can't be happy, because you're not living XYZ ways." Right? Like, I've definitely been on the flip side of that, too, where people you know, and so it's been interesting to kind of go through this journey in my life and be like, oh, I really need to like believe people, when they tell me things.
Do you think taking that approach will lead to like, a free for all, or like a decrease in moral values?
Well, I know I've quoted my dad saying this before, but he says people are gonna do what they want to do, whether you like it or not, but you get to choose how much you'll be in their life. And I think like, my being disappointed someone's choice has never made them change their choice.
Hmm, yeah. So well, I feel like there's like this theme in our culture of like, we've talked about this before. "Love the sinner--hate the sin," or like, "I don't want to condone what you're doing." But like, I don't know, didn't you do a TED talk on that, Ben?
Yeah.
You want to share some thought? Ideas that people are supposed to pay for.
It'll be free on YouTube, like two weeks after it airs, and the TED Talk is being released, like at the end of March. So...
So you're just gonna make people wait?
Well, this will probably be released after the TED talk comes out.
Oh.
So you can just watch, type TEDx Talk.
If you're struggling with that, watch Ben's TED Talk.
No, but Well, what I did in that TED Talk, and I did this on purpose was--I told stories of people who thought that my
Oh, that's nice. beliefs as a Latter-day Saint were abhorrent, and how people like still loved me, even though I was living the "Latter-day Sa nt lifestyle."
Yeah. And one of the stories I tell is....
You're so edgy.
It is a bit edgy. I tell a story about going to this Pride parade in Tucson. Yeah, in Tucson. And we were with Mormons Building Bridges and like dressed up as you know, in our in our Sunday best. And I was worried that people were like, we're gonna hate us for being there. Because like, we belong the least of any group there. But as we were walking down the street, and I was like holding the banner, people were just like, "The Mormons are here. The
Mormons are here." And they just like cheered and cheered and were like so glad that we were there. And then I remember at the end, like, like, one of the organizers was taking a group picture of us and she was like, "Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for coming." And then my favorite line from the whole talk. I say, "I hope that anyone I hope that any LGBTQ person who attends a Latter-day Saint congregation would feel as welcome there as I felt that
that Pride parade. Yeah, because I mean, I really was like, so like, I was like, cheered for and praised for coming to a pride praise of Latter-day Saints. And you know, shouldn't we like, cheer for and praise like anyone who wants to do something good in their life?
Yeah. We should be cheering for and praising LGBTQ people that come to church and the ones that don't come to church too. Yeah, Just like we need a lot of cheer, cheer us on, give us attention. That's why we come out. That's a joke.
Yeah. So Jessica, I can imagine there are people listening to this, who, you know, they're in a similar situation to you like, they're, they're living their best life. They're thriving, they're really happy, but their family members aren't happy with what's happening, what would you say to them?
Have really good friends. And just to be patient, I think, you know, there were a lot of times where like, before I came out, I was so worried and so concerned about, you know, how certain family members of mine would react and, and I really, I didn't have enough faith in them to believe that they would kind of take me and accept me for where I was at and
who I am. But and then I never would have guessed that, like certain family members of mine would also, you know, over this past year have like grown a lot too where like, my mom, like I said, she's worked really hard to, I think, see me with where I'm at. And so there has been a lot of growth, and it's not painful to talk to her anymore.
Like, so there's like some patience there and some understanding that I think is really important, and just to be to continue to be yourself and know that like things will change and happen in time. And you just got to kind of give it that time,
Like the way circumstances are now isn't how they're going to be in the future?
Not at all. Not at all. So...
It seems like you've done a really good job not holding a grudge or being resentful about the way that some of your family members initially reacted. But you've allowed them a space to grow. And you're like, okay, like, we're not there anymore. And I'm not going to hold that against you.
Oh, yeah, I mean, and I like kind of I mentioned earlier, everyone's entitled to feel how they're going to feel and, and I knew it wasn't malicious, right? Most of the time when people hurt us, it's never malicious. It's never with the intent to hurt us. They're just had to have these big feelings, and they don't know how to deal with them. And so they take it out, and or they, they don't know how to express it in ways that aren't hurtful.
And the conflict arises when you then take that personally, and then you take it upon yourself, like they really want to hurt me. And I think that's rarely ever the case when it comes to family members or loved ones, especially, is they, you know, they're just trying to understand. And so if you can kind of take it that way and take a step back and realize it's not about you. It wasn't about me, it was my mom had an expectation, and it wasn't met. And she had to adjust to that.
And I had allow her time to do that. And, and then our relationship can.....
I just as we were talking about my TED talk, I just keep remembering these two lesbians that I lived within Tucson, who were kind of concerned at first that I was a member of the church still, but then like, just came to, like, love and accept me and I haven't lived with them since like, 2017. Like, it's been a long time since we've lived together. But the homeowner, she calls me every couple months. And every time we talk, she tells me how proud she is of me. Like she's
just always, "Ben. I'm just so proud of you and all that you're doing." And you know, I know that when we first met, she was like, "Just get out of that bigoted, homophobic church and just live your life." And now we're at a place where she and that's that phase in last very long, she was like, "Ben, I'm just so proud of you and what you're doing." And I just wish everyone could like have lesbians like that in their life. Or just people like that
in their life. Who just like call you up every couple of months and say, "I'm just so proud of you what you're doing."
I wish everyone can have a lesbian in their life.
I mean, lesbians are great.
Yeah, everyone probably does.
Yeah.
I'm sure we do.
Oh, that's nice. Now I'm thinking about all the lesbians in my life. So many to choose from. But also, where are they?
Listen to that episode with Sammy Taylor.
Alright, well, Jessica, thanks so much for being on today and for sharing some of these like really personal things. I applaud you for your courage and your efforts and also like your forgiving heart, and your beautiful eyes.
I worked really hard on those.
And thank you for all the candy and veggie straws and Pop Tarts. Thank you for joining us today. If you've enjoyed this or other episodes, please consider leaving a review, following us o Instagram or Facebook at Quest ons from the Closet or sharing the podcast with someone you l ve. And as always, please reme ber that we do not represent the Church of Jesus Chris of Latter-day Saints or Bri ham Young University. We're not trying to be prescriptiv or tell anyone what to thin or what to
You heard three perspectives and there are many, many more. We encourage you to listen to other voices and hear a wide variety of experiences. If you would like to submit a question or share a comment about today's episode, you can email us at questionsfromthecloset@gmail.com. Until next time...