What if I'm afraid to come out?

Welcome to questions from the closet. I'm Ben Schilaty.

And I'm Charlie Bird. Each episode we discuss a question we commonly get asked as LGBTQ+ Latter-day Saints.

We're not trying to answer this question or come to a consensus, but simply sharing our perspectives. Today's

What if I'm afraid to come out?

Ben and I are not terribly diverse and we share many opinions and life experiences. For example, neither of us has ever shaved our legs.

However, there are some pretty big differences. For example, Charlie never shaves his face. And I do because.....

My, my, my face is shaved right now.

It is not.

It was shaved last week, I had to film some stuff for BYU. Here's the deal. Ben always gets on to me because he's like the Honor Code administrator, whatever, whatever. And I'm not supposed to have a beard, but I look hot with a beard. And it was COVID. So the testing center was closed for like the past year and a half,

So you only have honor when you have to take a test?

Uh huh. Uh oh, we're gonna get flunked.

And I felt good about the other thing like, obviously. Well, you do look good with the beard. Oh, yeah. I was surprised we've never shaved your legs because you seem like the kind of person who would.

What does that mean, Ben?

You just don't...

What does it mean Ben? Just like--I seem like a swimmer?

Yeah.

Oh, nice. I can't believe I let you get out of that so fast.

No, like someone who grooms themself carefully all the time.

Is shaving your legs grooming carefully?

Yeah, definitely.

Well, I've never done it.

Well, I haven't either.

Why haven't you?

Just no need? Yeah, yeah, I did shave my chest once. That was a huge mistake.

Me too.

I did just to try it. It was awful. And like, I got like, it got all itchy. It was the worst. I'm never doing that ever again.

Yeah. And I feel like it didn't look like the chest hair like, gives a nice contour. Excellent. I actually I was like, Oh, I look skinnier.

I actually felt the exact opposite. I felt like it gave me more definition. I was like, Oh my gosh, I've have abs now.

Oh, really?

Yeah. Well, maybe I just maybe we should try it again. See how it looks.

Okay. Not together, though. I don't want to watch you shave your chest. We need to move on.

Let's move on. Anyway. So we would like to provide a variety of voice that perspective. So today, we're joined by Taylor Jessop.

Hello.

Hi Taylor, have you ever shaved your legs? I hear it's really nice when you have a fresh-shaved leg

It is the best. and you get in bed with clean sheets. I have, and I do, often, yes.

I wouldn't know.

We've never tried it.

You ought to try it sometime.

Maybe we will. Not at the same time.

So Taylor, tell us about yourself.

Well, I was born and raised in American Samoa. I lived there until I was about 16. And then I moved to New York, where I went to college for about three years.

You started college when you were 16?

Yeah. So I had turned 17 that year, but I was accepted at 16.

Oh my gosh,

Where'd you go?

West Point. So just the just like a small school like upstate New York.

Cool.

If you're familiar with that area, but...

Amazing.

Never heard of West Point? No, I'm just kidding.

I don't know. Either like zero or 100. So, "I have no idea what that is." Or "Oh my goodness. I know what that is."

Yeah, it sounds very impressive. They got into West Point.

There's a town across the river from West Point, I can't remember what it's called. But I went there two Christmases in a row because it's really cute.

Could be Poughkeepsie. If that sounds familiar. Or Rochester.

I just took the train up from Manhattan.

Okay, that's a really pretty area.

It's gorgeous. It's gorgeous. Okay,

So you spent three years at West Point...

Spent three years at West Point. And then I served a mission in LA, and I spoke English and Persian there. I just returned in September. And I decided to transfer over to BYU. So I'm there now.

Cool. Great. Well, what took you to BYU?

Well, that is kind of a long story. I guess you guys are ready for it.

We're ready.

Bring it on.

So during my time at West Point, I was sexually assaulted. And I went through the court process and I did all of the legal things. And I just had the strongest prompting to serve my mission. I wasn't active at all, anywhere, not even close. And the only people who were there for me at that time, were the ward members there. And I'd seen them maybe a handful of times. And that just touched me so deeply. And I just had a really strong desire to serve my mission. So I did that.

So you had this terribly traumatic experience and the people who were there for you were these waard members that you barely even knew.

Absolutely.

I'm so sorry that happened to you and thanks for sharing that really intimate detail of your life. So Taylor, how do you identify?

So I identify as bisexual.

You want to tell us more about that?

So you know, when I heard that question "What if I'm afraid to come out?" I think of it in two different sections--there was--there is "What if I'm afraid to come out in New York?" And "What if I'm afraid to come out here in Provo, Utah?" as a student at Brigham Young University, and those are two separate worlds. In New York, it's very open.

It's so nice to be out in New York.

It's so nice. And everybody is so welcoming. And I

Confusing. was so young, I was 16 years old, and I developed an attraction towards women. And I was still dating men. And it was

Confusing and very scary, I'm an, I'm on the other all just very new. And... side of the world, away from all of my family members. And it was just really easy for me to come out there because I was surrounded by people who not only supportive, but I was surrounded by people who were also part of the LGBTQ plus community. So that was very, very easy for me, maybe all of my relationships are gonna be changed. Maybe the people that I love are gonna view me

So there's this fear of like adding an extra layer to what was already a marginalized, existence existence system. Right. But like, you were already feeling marginalized as being a woman of color. And you're like, if I add this, it's just going to be that much worse.

Absolutely.

Yeah. Wow.

And so that was just a really enlightening experience for me to be able to just be open with my sexuality. I didn't really mention to too many people that I was bi, but West Point is so small, and you know, who's dating who you know, who's going out with who.

So you were out at West Point, or you weren't?

I was.

Yeah,.

I was. I definitely was.

So but but you were scared to come out because of that like, adding another level of intersectionality?

Yes. Okay. Absolutely. So I was out in the sense where I was definitely dating women. I was dating men, but it never came out of my mouth. "I'm bisexual." If somebody asked me, I would kind of change the subject.

Okay. Yeah.

So you could live dating men and women, you're okay with people seeing you do that. But actually saying the word was something you weren't you weren't prepared to do?

Giving it that tag?

Absolutely.

I guess in that case, you would have to, like, confront it and actually like face to face, like, see what someone thinks of you rather than just like, live your life. And people can think whatever they want.

Yeah.

It's interesting, because like, for the first couple years, I came out, I wouldn't have called myself gay, I would say that I was more attracted to men than women. And it was easier to explain the situation than to put a label on it.

Yeah. Yeah, that's true. That's true. Funny, funny note about coming out in New York. When I graduated from BYU and moved to Manhattan, I met with my Bishop, and I was like, I'm going to tell him I'm gay. I am going to tell him that I want to be involved in the ward. And so like, I was like, "And Bishop, I'm gay. And I am going to date guys, but I'm going to come to church." And he's like, "Okay." And I was like, "Do you have any thoughts about that?" And he was like, "No, that's

Both of you, gentlemen, look like you work out a lot. Oh, say yes, yes.

Thanks for noticing.

It's just a tight t shirt.

So wait till you see me with a shaved chest.

So what I want you to think about sled pulls, right? You're pulling a huge sled with weights on it. What it was like for me to have that fear of that label being stuck to me it was like trying to pull that weighted sled and not going anywhere. And having that not budge at all. I was afraid that I wouldn't be able to move forward because of that label that I couldn't discover myself as a person because I was already labeled as something.

Oh, gotcha. That makes sense. I remember being really scared that people's like preexisting misconceptions with the word gay would automatically be put onto me. And then people would assume things about my beliefs or my personality, or my character...

Or your actions and behaviors?

Definitely actions and behaviors because of this word that I felt more and more was beginning to actually describe who I am and how I feel. But I couldn't control what anybody else believed about the word. I think that was my issue with labels for a long time.

It's like once you come out, it's like, you lose control of your narrative.

Uh huh. Is that true, though? Lose Control your narrative?

That's the fear.

Yeah, that is the fear. Because, for me, I felt like and honestly, that happened to me a lot in a pretty dramatic way. And I, I've talked with you, Ben about this a lot. Because when I came out as gay, people put me on a shelf. And it was a very secular shelf. It was a very sexual shelf. And the kinds of people who were reaching out to me were, I don't know, like, everyone just thought I was sexually active and promiscuous

Trying to hook up with you.

Yeah. Like everyone was trying to hook up with me. And then...

Literally, everyone.

Everyone in the world. And on the flip side of that, religious people, were scared of me. And nothing about my life, or my beliefs, or like my temple recommend status have changed when I came out as gay. But people's perceptions changed. And it was just I was like, really? And so I ended up having to, like, define, even when I wrote my book, I was like, "I say, I'm gay. And this is how I define the way that I say, I'm gay, just so you can be

Yeah, definitely. And my big fear, when I was coming out was I want to work at the MTC, I thought they would never hire an openly gay person to work at the MTC and...

Legitimate fear.

Yeah. And I thought, I thought by doing this, I am now giving up the career I've been working for. And that was really scary, but I just, I had to do it.

That still makes me so sad.

Well get this. So a good friend of mine works at the MTC now, she's just kind of a bigwig. I won't name names. And they recently had an opening for the like, what had been my dream job. And she said, "Ben I, I was reading your book, and I saw that you wanted to work for the MTC here is the job posting for your dream job. If you want to apply." She's like, "I know you have a great job and you probably won't apply but just you know, like you could do this."

And you didn't do it.

I didn't do it.

How come?

Cuz I love my job already.

But okay, hold up. Can I explore this real quick, Taylor? So, so you thought that being gay would inhibit you from your dream job? And now because you're gay, you wrote this book, and you were offered your dream job?

I wasn't offered it. I could have applied for it.

But you don't want it?

No.

Why?

Because I like what I'm doing now. instead.

How come?

Like why do I love my job?

Yeah, like, like, how did the job you have now become more of your dream job than the job you've been wanting to do since you were a child?

Not since a child. But like, since I learned Spanish, went on a mission.

As a child.

I think because I feel like I have I have more of a positive impact doing what I do now than I would at the MTC.

I just think that's really cool. Yeah, the way that God takes our lives where they're supposed to go, even when we like, I want this.

I think there are a lot of people who could do that job at the MTC and do an amazing job. I think I could do a great job. And there are people who do my job too and do a great job. But I feel like there's there are things I contribute in my current position that I don't know if anyone else could do. That's not because I'm special. It's just because I think...

I think it is because you are special.

I don't think it is because I was special, but because I am prepared.

Yeah. Okay.

I think there's a difference.

I like that.

Between being special and being prepared. And I'm just prepared.

Everyone's special. Ben.

Yes, that's true.

And once everyone's special, no one is.

That's a line from "The Incredibles."

Anyway, Taylor, back to you.

So you now have taken on this label bisexual. Walk us through that process.

Yes. So that did not come until very, very recently, as I mentioned, I served my mission. And it was kind of strange for some of my friends back at West Point to see me serve a mission because they know, bits and pieces about the LDS church and they knew I was dating women. And so as soon as I finished my mission, and the first question from a lot of my friends back in New York was, "So are you done with the Mormon

You took like a Mormon vacation.

Essentially, No, I'm just kidding.

A mission is such a vacation.

The opposite of a vaction.

Like, learn Persian, get sworn at on the street. So easy.

It was just very strange. I hadn't had any of those thoughts come back up until I had come to Utah right after my mission. I wasn't able to go back home because my borders are closed or they were closed due to COVID.

Oh my gosh.

So that was is a little strange.

So you're stuck here.

I am stuck here. Yeah. But...

Welcome we're happy to have you.

And so, I had thought about that a lot since coming home since coming to Utah. And for the first time ever, I decided to go back to trauma therapy, to be able to deal with the sexual assault. And I wanted to be honest with how I actually felt about the event and how much it's affected me and how much it's affected my relationships.

Do you mind if I ask you a question about that?

Go for it.

So the event had happened long, long before? What What did it take for you to be ready to actually address that in therapy?

Honestly, it took a huge mental breakdown. That happened a couple of months since I finished my mission. And it was just mixed with a lot of confusion, not being able to go home, in a new place, new culture, I don't really know too many people. And so all of that was just mixed in a huge pot, and I broke down. And I ended up seeing a doctor and being in the hospital for a few days. And they diagnosed me with bipolar disorder. You guys are just learning so much about me on this podcast.

Well, thank you for being so open.

You know, and I'll, I'll circle back to why I want to be so open. But once I was diagnosed that disorder, they linked the trigger point to 99% being the event that happened at West Point. And so that's why I decided to go back to trauma therapy. And so that's kind of a very long answer to what it took. But I was there. And, and I still am. And just being honest and open with my thoughts and my feelings. It made me want to share my experience of sexual assault with other people. And

Wow.

And so it was I think just about two weeks ago, I just kind of got up, like, Okay, I need to talk to somebody. So I talked to some of my friends. And I ended up talking to my academic advisor. And I was so scared. So all of the fears that both of you mentioned, having those fears I just barely had like that didn't set in until literally two weeks ago. And it was just terrifying. And I didn't know, I didn't know anything about BYU stance on LGBTQ, I've heard things, I've

Yeah. To to help help us understand. So you were you were scared you thought you might get kicked out of BYU for just disclosing your bi-sexual? How did you know who you can talk to how do you know which person to trust?

The only I guess sort of BYU authority figure that I had, at the time was my academic counselor. When I first moved here, I was very scared. I was stressed. I just got back from my mission. I started the semester, two weeks late and she was there. And I don't know what it was. It was just the way that

You do know that everything here is not confidential?

Wait. Are you serious?

Okay, I have a couple of thoughts and some questions and it might take us to different corridors and I want to end up back here. But just before we we keep going, first of all, I just want to like commend you for your bravery. It seems like there was a time in your life where you would hide from, or run away from, or suppress your emotional feelings, like your reactions and like, the heavy, scary things in your life, you just, like,

I was ashamed.

You just like hid them away. But it seems like recently, you've kind of turned around and faced them and stopped running from them and been like, okay, these are things that confuse me about myself. These are things that confuse me about what I've experienced, I'm going to start sorting them out. And like cleaning, organizing this space and see if it's a space that I can live in and be happy and,

Thank you.

I want to ask how it was going on a mission after you dated girls. Because I know very few people who have like, openly same sex dated and then gone on a mission. And so I just wondered like, what was that like for you? Did you feel awkward about it? How was it like going through the missionary process? Because I think that's a question. It's a baptismal question. Yeah. If you've been in the same sex relationship. So could you talk about that?

It--for me, it wasn't awkward at all. I don't know. It was...

Just like a thing you did?

To me at the time, when I was doing it, it was a phase. It was a complete phase. So I guess it was, I was in denial in a sense, but...

You didn't really accept the reality.

I did not accept it. Even though I was definitely dating girls. I was definitely going on dates with men and women. I was still it was weird. I was like in this really strong denial stage. So when I went on my mission, everything like honestly, everything was fine. I didn't have any issues.

That makes sense. Yeah. So maybe like some cognitive dissonance there.

Absolutely. And it was like categorizing, I was very good at categorizing things. And so it's like, hey, everything I don't want to think about. And like I was really good at keeping it very nice and orderly. So I just never thought about it.

That makes sense to me. Thanks for sharing that.

Taylor, if we could switch gears a little bit. So you're from American Samoa? How is the culture there related to LGBTQ topics?

You know, in and this is just my personal view, I think it's very much a double standard. In terms, for example, men are very much welcome to be transgender to be gay. We have a whole word for it. And it's

What's the word?

It's Fa'afafine

Fa'afafine

Fa'afafine

Cool.

And so that is the word it was used as slander for a really long time. So they weren't always accepted, obviously. But now, my culture has seemed to embrace it in my view. And so there's that whole thing. But if a woman comes out as bisexual or gay, she is automatically shamed. She is automatically pushed away from everybody else. And she's looked down upon. And so that's kind of the culture that I perceive right now, in my home country. But...

Is there an added fear of like you coming out? Like, like, how is my family going to--how are people back home going to respond?

Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. The Samoan culture is very much based on honor. Right, bringing honor to your family, respecting your elders. And so the fear of coming out as bisexual or as gay, just brought a lot of shame, it would bring a lot of shame on my family. And so that's what I was so afraid of. Because I, I don't know, I feel like I brought a lot of honor when I went to West Point and was doing things that I

That's a huge weight to carry.

Yeah.

And you're at a point now where you're willing to talk about it on a podcast?

I am. And I'm glad that I got to this point. Because, you know, I realized that I'm not going to be able to heal from the traumatic events of my past if I'm not willing to be honest with myself about everything. I thought I could still categorize it and be like, Hey, I'm going to heal from this assault. And then that's it, then I'll be good. And then I'll just deal with everything else later. No, everything is connected. And that goes for

Can you connect these dots for us? What is--connect the dots between like being honest with yourself and healing?

I think it was very easy for me to lie to myself and tell myself, I'm fine. Everything is good. This is what you're going to do. Everything is going to go boom, boom, boom, boom, A to Z, no problem. But it was when I was diagnosed with my disorder, that I realized that something was actually wrong and I'm not saying that there's something actually wrong with everybody in order to be able to be open and honest with yourself, but that's

Yeah. And that doesn't that doesn't sound like it was an easy process.

No, no. Like I mentioned before, it was a huge thick blanket of denial over my whole body. And so it took, it took a lot to, I don't know, to help me, Be true to myself.

So let's say there's someone who's, who's listening, who's afraid to come out because of how they might be perceived by their friends and loved ones, they're worried that coming out, might change how their people's perception of them, and might change their opportunities for the future. What would you say to someone who's afraid for those reasons to come out?

I would say that you have every right to be--that coming out is scary. It's new, it requires you to be vulnerable. And it requires you to be honest with yourself and with the people around you. But I would say to just remember, that when you do decide to come out, it doesn't matter when--but when you decide to come out the people who truly love and value you are going to love you regardless, they're going to love you for who God created you to be.

And I think those relationships will strengthen and fortify and grow in ways that you never could have imagined. I'm thinking about the same question, Ben, what I would say, and I think it's really easy to take a fear based approach to coming out. Because shame loves fear, like they just

Yeah, yeah. I talked to a lot of people who are afraid of the uncertainty, you know, the future is uncertain. Like if I if I come out, like things are uncertain, like, and they're scared about that. And some just ask me that. Well, well, what do you do with this uncertainty? My view is about uncertainty is kind of shifted. And as I've matured, and now I don't look at uncertainty as like, "Oh, no, I don't know what bad thing is

Yeah, I don't know what good thing might happen.

Yeah. And so I look at uncertainty. I think, you know, how is God gonna surprise me? Like, what beautiful thing is gonna happen that I can't even imagine?

And I'm just gonna pull it back to Ben, your story, you were afraid to come out because you didn't want to miss out on your dream job. But now you're actively choosing to miss out on that dream job, because coming out, provided you a path that was better.

Definitely.

And that's really, there's so much. There's so much there.

Yeah.

I love that.

Taylor, what have you learned about God in this process?

On my mission, you know, you, I felt like I was the closest to God is what I thought. But when I was finally honest, and I started praying about those topics that I also thought were off limits, I felt even closer to God. And I learned that this is who he created me to be. And I'm happy with that. I'm not angry at him for any of the past experiences that I've had. They've helped shape me and who, into who I am today. And so I I wouldn't say I learned anything new necessarily

That's beautiful. I love that. Anything else you wanna share? Taylor, that you haven't gotten to share?

I think those are all the secrets that I have. I think I am done.

Taylor, thank you for sharing all of your secrets with us today. And thank you so much for your honesty and your vulnerability and we hope that as more and more people learn about how you identify that you will just receive so much more love and kindness.

Thank you so much, Ben and Charlie, this was an amazing experience.

Thank you for joining us today. If you have enjoyed this or other episodes, please consider leaving a review following us on Instagram or Facebook at Questions From the Closet or sharing this podcast with someone you love. And as always, please remember that we do not represent the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints or Brigham Young University. We are not trying to be prescriptive or tell anyone what to think or what to do.

You've heard three perspectives and there are many, many more. We encourage you to listen to other voices and hear a wide variety of experiences. If you'd like to submit a question or share a comment about today's episode, you can email us at questionsfromthecloset@gmail.com. Until next time...