Welcome to Questions from the Closet. I'm Charlie Bird.
And I'm Ben Schilaty. Each episode we discuss a question that we commonly get asked as LGBTQ Latter-day Saints.
We're not trying to answer this question or come to a consensus but simply sharing our perspectives. Today's question is, what does it mean to be non binary?
Charlie and I are not terribly diverse. We share many opinions and life experiences. For example, we both love attention.
However, there are some pretty big differences. For example, we like different kinds of attention.
So what kind of attention do you like, Charlie?
I like public praise. Ben I feel like you like when people individually reach out to you and tell you how great you are.
Oh, I love that.
I don't really like that. That stresses me out. I just want to be like performing on stage. I want like masses, like fans screaming my name and clapping for me and applauding but after that, like I don't want to talk to them. But you want like a hordes of people coming to you individually and be like, "You changed my life."
No, not hordes. But just like, if someone's like, "Ben, thank you for what you said. It was really meaningful to me" like, Oh, thank you.
That's nice. Well, one time we were all at lunch with some friends. And someone was like, "Who likes attention more Ben or Charlie?"
And we were like, uhhhh.
Like, everyone there was like, uhhh we don't really know.
But probably Charlie.
Probably you.
Well, who knows? But there's a kind of attention I don't like. I don't like birthday attention or like, or like the idea of like wedding attention. Just sounds awful to me, too.
I just, I don't really know if I can say if I like that or not. I feel like that's the kind you would like though because there's like a receiving line.
Yeah, but it's just like a lot of small talk repeatedly.
I hate small talk. Small talk's tough.
Yeah. And birthday. Like I want like attention for like something I did not something my mom did.
Ben wants accolades. And I want followers.
Yeah, exactly. That's exactly right.
We've cracked the code.
So we would like to provide a variety of voices and perspectives. So today, we're joined by Bobby.
Hi, I'm Bobbi. I grew up in Singapore and I have lived in the US for the last 10 years. I am Chinese Singaporean, I identify as a gender, and I go by, they/them pronouns. I am now happily married to a lovely person named Summer. You guys might have heard of her.
Yeah we actually had Summer on the podcast a couple weeks ago,
I studied Media Arts at Brigham Young University and graduated.
Congraduations.
I like to say I graduated because for a lot of kids like me, it was an extremely difficult and trying time, and not all of us make it out.
What do you mean by kids like me?
Kids who are anywhere on the spectrum of being LGBTQIA+.
Yeah. What was what was hard about your time at BYU?
I'm having that complicated identity of being both Mormon and queer. And then later, also, realizing that my gender identity was or, or rather like coming to terms with my gender identity, something that I had known since I was a child, but just didn't have the words for it.
Actually, you, you wrote a story about this, right?
Yeah.
Would you mind sharing that?
Yes, I would love to. Once upon a time, there were girls, and there were boys, and there was Bobbi. Bobbi played with the boys and loved being with them. But as much as Bobbi was like one of the boys, Bobbi and the boys knew that Bobbi wasn't actually a boy. And for clarification, Bobbi didn't want to grow up to be a man one time at church. And new member pointed at Bobbi from afar and asked if Bobbi was a boy or girl. Bobbi's friends promptly replied, "Oh, Bobbi isn't a boy.
But we definitely wouldn't call her a girl either." Even I had to chuckle when my friends told me about this after. Indeed, growing up, Bobbi was often described by peers and adults alike as being a quote unquote tomboy. The thing was, Bobbi didn't see themselves as a tomboy. And frankly, never liked being called one. But Bobbi couldn't figure out why it bothered them so much nonetheless, throughout a lot of their life, Bobbi kept going through phases trying to be like
the other girls. Because when you're a kid, you just want to fit in. Periodically, Bobbi will grow their hair out, dress, like what they thought goes should be or look like. And shortly after, throughout the whole facade, only to repeat the cycle all over again. A little while later, this internal conflict went on as Bobbi grew up, when Bobbi was in their 20s. As most of you know by now, they came
out as gay. And since they were biologically female, the term typically used to describe someone like Bobbi was lesbian, but just like the term tomboy, the term lesbian made Bobbi cringe every time they were referenced by it. Again, Bobbi couldn't figure out why. Then In one day, a few years ago, Bobbi discovered a term agender. And suddenly, for the first time in their life, everything finally
started to make sense. The definition of agender, at least for Bobbi, means being a person who has an internal sense of being neither a man or a woman. Bobbi discovered a term that finally fit, because it perfectly describes how they don't fit.
Well, Bobbi, thank you so much for sharing that.
Yeah. So Bobbi, you talk about how growing up, people didn't really know where to put you, and you don't really know where to put yourself either. What was that like for you?
It was confusing. I think like a lot of people in general, that's an innate desire to, to want to fit in and wanting to fit in, or like trying to figure out where to fit in, was largely based on your knowledge and understanding of how society worked. And if society only had this or that, kind of, regardless of how you felt, you really try to force yourself into the, these existing parts of society, or these existing definitions of
society. In a way, it's, it's kind of like, you know, as a kid, you know, you play with kind of puzzle blocks, per se. And then you try to like shove, like, I don't know, like a circular block into like a cube, or like a slot that's meant for a cube, and it doesn't fit, and then you're like, you just like constantly trying to jam it in there. I think, you know, that's actually the first time I like, I've given that analogy in it,
as well. And it really describes that feeling so much like it, you totally do not fit in there. But you were like forcing yourself to try to get in there somewhere, somehow, because then perhaps you could start to feel a little bit more complete, like everyone else.
Yeah, you were saying that when you're reading your story, that there were times when you would dress like a girl and grow your hair out. And then you would kind of just throw it all away and try again. So it sounds like there was a lot of trying to fit into this hole he didn't fit into for a lot of years.
Yeah, I'm glad you brought that up, too. Because I also wanted to add to that point in that obviously, being a girl doesn't necessarily have to take on a certain kind of presentation or expression. But kind of like having long hair, wearing skirts were kind of like the mainstream expectation that I think a lot of us grew up with, at least in the societies
that we exist in. So I want to, I want to speak to that because obviously, I also definitely wanted to speak to the difference and importance of gender expression, and presentation and how that is different from gender identity. Related, of course, it doesn't determine how someone might present themselves.
Yeah. So as we were kind of preparing for this, I was looking up some definitions, just to make sure that I mean, I was on the same page of where I expected you might be. And there's there are like distinctions between gender and sex. And according to the World Health Organization, gender is socially constructed roles, behaviors or activities that society considers appropriate
for men and women. So in that definition, gender would be different from sex, because like it has no, it doesn't have like an intrinsic link to anatomy. So there's sex, and then there's gender. And so you're saying that like the way like no matter what your sex is, your gender expression, can or can not be different from that, depending on how you want, like, what is inside of you, right?
Also, great question. So now let's, I'm glad you brought up sex because, at least to me, like sex is more of biological characteristics. But these biological characteristics may not necessarily determine gender. And for a lot of people it doesn't. So we have like sexual characteristics or sex. And then we have gender identity. And then we have gender expression or gender presentation. So now I think we're more like talking in terms of like three different things.
So how are those related? Cuz I feel like this, this is where many people get confused is because there's these three things that and a lot of people's minds are the same, like gender is sex is gender expression, and kind of historically, that's how things have been. But now we have these like, different genders, different gender expressions, and then, I mean, even just like anatomically, there's not two
sexes. There's a lot of intersex people who are born with like hormones and biological factors of, of both sexes, male and female. And so I, it, that's where it starts getting confusing, I guess, you know, so so how do those interact for you as agender?
Before I, before I continue I just wanted to say like as you were kind of expressing all the things that you just did it just it really just makes you realize like how wonderfully different we all are and how beautiful these
differences can be. The potential of these differences to thrive or for, for a person to thrive when embraced because as you could tell like as a child like or you know even in my later years like it's very mentally and emotionally exhausting and imagine like i mean in addition to my queer identity so imagine like not having to be so invested in figuring things out if you knew that you could just simply exist as is and be celebrated for it like how much those energies could have been channeled
elsewhere.
Yeah.
But anyway coming back to your question so for me I was born female at birth so I have female biological characteristics so that's kind of like my sex and my gender would be agender which simply means I don't strongly identify with either being being within the binaries which in a society that would be being a man or a woman and as for my presentation I tend to lean towards what people might consider masculine and I like to say that because really at the end of the day
like who gets to decide what types of like presentations or more masculine or more feminine? What's it was that really based in? Frankly my presentation or the way I dress is largely based on the principle of am I wearing something that allows me to be ready anyone invites me to play basketball?
That's awesome.
Are you wearing something you're able to run in, to jump in? Are you wearing the right shoes? So i'm always dressed for that.
You're a very practical dresser.
I'm very practical.
Yeah so Bobbi I'm, I'm a cisgender man or male so I, you know my sex assigned at birth is how I identify. It's also how I express myself as well. I dress very manly no?
So manly.
So manly.
You look so good.
Thank you. Actually this shirt does make my arms look re lly good. No one can see. So B bbi helped me understand like w at it's like to present as a w man when you identify as a g nder and where that like what t at discomfort feels like.
Can i ask like a question real quick before we get there because the, the term we use to like introduce this episode was non-binary and so just for anyone before the conversation gets like too advanced could you make the distinction like what's the difference between non binary and agender?
i'm really glad you asked that so essentially we have the term transgender. So the term transgender can cover binary, trans identities and non binary trans identities and under the non binary trans identities you essentially get a variety of identities that fall outside of the binaries of men or women.
So non binary meaning anything but one or the other. So it's some sort of combination or like not fitting
Yes. like either a combination or like I don't want to say rejection but... An absence.
An absence. There you go. That's what I'm looking for.
So like for me that would be an absence of it. I mean you we can get into like all the many different terms you know like there's also like bi-gender like where someone strongly identifies as both and in some ways they're unlike the complete opposite of that for me it's like the absence of both.
Yeah.
I'm glad you asked this because recently I learned that actually people who identify as non binary it's okay if you don't identify with the word transgender and that's something that I just came to learn for myself recently because I actually personally never saw
myself as transgender. I think partly because I've strongly saw the terms transgender as a word for people who were, who still fell within the binary like being a trans man or trans woman yeah but then you know like I was told that non binary still fell under the trans umbrella and so then I thought i had to take on the you know the in some ways like the transgender term but anyway I wanted to mention that because you know for everyone who's listening or wanting to learn that in,
honestly sometimes the best way to learn is just to ask and how and like someone might identify not to assume that just because it's one way for someone that it's the same way for everyone else.
So what I'm hearing you say is there's this category of non binary and agender is like a subcategory of that.
Yes and so I'm comfortable referring to myself as having a non binary identity or being agender that's probably the most frequent term I refer to myself by. And I almost never refer to myself as trans. I, you know, it's one of those things where you learn, you think, Oh, that must be like the scholarly approach or something. But then at the end of the day, like, I think we come back to the basis of how like, what should work for us, instead of like, we work for them.
It sounds like you kind of have been told how to identify for a long time, and even this trans identity was kind of thrust upon you. And now you've just recently gotten permission to not have to refer to yourself as trans.
Right. Right.
Awesome. Congratulations.
Yeah.
We will not put any identity on to you today.
Well, thank you, I wanted to put it out there just again, you know, kind of like for anyone else who's non binary and haven't been taught like, oh, that means you know, you're, you fall in a trans umbrella. So you, you know, you're some kind of trans.
Alright, we can go back to your question, Ben. Sorry.
That was good. When you were presenting female and identifying as female, you know help me just understand that. Like what that felt like when you were presenting as a way that didn't really feel, that didn't resonate with you.
So, before I proceed, I do want to clarify the definitions we're using here. Because I've learned that sometimes it's kind of hard to have a conversation when you're not in the same, we're not on the same page about the definitions you're using behind these terms. When you say, for example, that when you say like presenting as female I think of that more as like presenting as a woman. Because to me, like being female is more of like you, like biology.
Biological.
Yeah, biological characteristic. And I want to clarify here, because I do know that there are a lot of people out there who, who actually kind of use male and female as alternative terms to like, men and women.
Yeah.
But but for me, I, I see it more like a biological sexual characteristic. You know, kind of like, the anatomy that you were born with, per se.
Right? So So you're saying you like to use different terms to differentiate whether we're talking about gender, which being defined as the social construct of like, like feminine femininity versus masculinity, and then sex being like, biologically male, female.
Right. And then yeah, and then gender identity being man or woman. So essentially, yeah, you know, I was, it was born with a female body. But I don't identify as a woman. And that was, even though that's the, it seemed like that was like the logical expectation. Logical expectation, that's a funny term. Essentially, that was the expectation of society, right? If you're born female, obviously, you're going to be a girl, and you're going to grow
up to be a woman. And the same goes for if you know, if you were born with a male body, obviously, you're going to be a man, regardless of how you feel, essentially. That's, I mean, that's how that was put onto a lot of us by society. And for me, yeah, it was very, I constantly felt like I was playing pretend, like kind of like doing what you got to do in order to survive in this world.
I think in, in many ways, whether you are binary or non binary, trans, I think a lot of us feel very similar ways, in a sense of you dressed up in a socially acceptable way in order to function in society.
So it sounds like being agender it's not just like wearing blue or pink or having long or short hair. There's also some aspects of biological comfort and like place within society. Can you help me understand a little bit more about, like, how it, how it roots deeper than just like, like, it's deeper than non conforming gender. Like it's deeper than a girl doing
something boyish. Just like you said, people said, they used the term tomboy, but you didn't really like that, because it's not like, you're a girl that likes boyish things. Like there's, there's something deeper there. Does that make sense?
Right, right. I think from an early age, I also as what my parents might think, perhaps having the personality of sorts that would reject or at least attempted to reject.
They're pretty traditional.
Yeah. Oh, and for me to, like, attempt to reject these these expectations placed upon me, like, you know, just because I was born a girl doesn't like why do I have to do XYZ? Honestly, you know, with, with due credit to my parents, thankfully, or they were never like too forceful about it. I think Sunday best was about as, as a firm as they got, I suppose.
A skirt with a pink bow.
Exactly. Specifically picking out I think for the most part you like you can wherever you want. You can wear whatever you want during a week, but, you know, come Sunday, better put on a dress or skirt. I just remembered this, this memory of when I was a teenager and for various reasons one time, you know, I was attending an event and had to wear a skirt and this was outside of church and my friends saw me and they were like, this is weird because we
know you're wearing a skirt. But it almost seems as though we're like, you're like a boy in a skirt. And I was, and I just remember seeing it, like, I remember being like, amused, but slightly disappointed because I had, like, tried to dress up, you know. And it's just like, I don't think I look like a boy do I? And they're like, "No, it's
just your vibe." I might have had even long hair at a time that like, completely threw me off like yet long hair, you have a skirt on and your friends are still like, this is what looks kinda like, it looks kind of weird on you, you know, man, I tried man.
So even at this early age, like there was something that you just didn't feel congruent with, with being a woman, and even your peers saw something different in you as well.
And even this, like, with my parents, you know, thinking that this person had kind of rejected expectations placed upon me like, I don't think it was a conscious one at all. But I think in a sense when you are a child, because you have less understanding of the world, and therefore more more bold in your attempt to reject these expectations, because you don't realize that conforming to these expectations will help you to sort of survive in some way.
Because you have to, you know, as a child, you're just like, I don't want to do this, it doesn't feel like me, I think in a way you're like more in tune. And again, like more or less aware, with the need to survive. But as you get older, you realize, well, I guess if society works this way, and I want to fit in, then and I'll try to jam in that puzzle block, even if I don't fit.
Now that you have this term that you identify with agender does it feel like you're more like you as a child and that you're fitting into the right space?
Yes, I would say ever since yeah, discovering the term agender and realizing it was okay. It was okay to be me. It was okay to not have to identify as this or that. Really the only way I can describe describe it as is liberating.
Yeah.
Like, you know, I picture myself as that child finally finding the right, the right fit for my block that's in my hand.
That's awesome.
You know. And...
What was it about this just a word that was so liberating to you?
It was the very fact that I didn't have to identify as a woman and that was okay. I mean, easily, like growing up, like, like, you would have been kind of like, a freak or probably seen as a very, very, very, very special kind of snowflake.
It sounds like societal expectations for what is male and what is female really made it difficult for you to like be yourself and even find yourself within that.
I think, I think this is simply largely due to the fact that words help us to understand the world and understand ourselves, and hence the the meanings placed on these words, carry a lot of weight. And I just didn't have the right words, to explain myself or explain how I was feeling. Yeah, and, and you know, and so when there comes a time when there's a word that kind of gives you a place in this world, and tells you that you're okay, because now there's a word that exists
to describe someone like you. So in a sense, is like, almost like, words give validation to our existence, and essentially also to help us like communicate to people who are trying to understand us, you know, when someone asks, like, what do you exactly feeling? I mean, it was it's incredible when you know, the word is legitimate enough to now be part of dictionary, as well as you know, the singular they/them pronouns.
And honestly, knowing you, and in talking with you, this word, like really makes sense. Like, it just feels like it fits who you are, and the vibe, or the energy that I get when I'm with you, because it's almost like you don't just prefer like, male associated aesthetics or taste, but you also like are really uncomfortable being perceived as female. So it's like, like when you said the word absence, like I feel that from you. I'm glad you found that word.
Thank you. Me too. I just quickly coming back to like even presentation I used to get kind of annoyed when people would say like, "You know why you dress up like a boy like what, what do you, why do you present as a boy?" so to speak.
And I just remember you know, feeling kind of frustrated because it was always I just, I just, I'm just dressing out like me, that happens to fall into society, society's idea of a more perhaps more masculine presentation you know, I'm saying like, you can't just dress it yourself without society having to label it in a certain manner. is I think it let's come down to like the classic skirt and right why is it when a man puts on the skirt or a boy puts on a skirt suddenly everyone's oh you dress
so girly. I mean, seriously, like pants are a modern invention. Like we wore skirts, like for for the longest time through human history,
My ancestors had some awesome tunics.
And did you know that heels originated in like 1600 France.
I did actually.
I think the butchers wore them. And then the king wanted to be taller. I think it was King Louie the 16th.
I don't know.
And so he started wearing high heels to be taller. And then like it became all the rage for men in France to wear high heels. And then like transition to women in the early 1900s, or late 1800s, something like that. But anyway, like, yeah, like a lot of a lot, especially like, I feel like a lot of gender presentation comes from the way we dress. And that is all like society based.
And even that term now that I think about it. Gender presentation. What does it even mean? I mean, we really could just say presentation, how you present as a person?
Yeah.
What do you mean, like gender presentation? Right?
It's good point.
Yeah, I think it's just as, as we engage with, as people engage in these conversations, I just hope for people to kind of myself included, you know, kind of question, like the way we talk about these things, or question the assumptions we place on our on our ideas of presentation based on someone's gender identity.
So Bobbi, I have a question that that kind of goes in a different line. I know a lot of younger people teens are identifying as non binary today. You know? And I hear people say, "Oh, it's just a fad. It's just something cool. It's just a trend. It's just like the trendy thing to do." What would you say to someone who said that?
We've always existed, we were just never allowed to exist as ourselves or as openly, until we were able to, you know, in our own ways, in our own spaces, in our own social media, because of the knowledge that we've acquired, whether there will be through our own research or speaking to others. In that sense, I think that actually has been one of like, the positives of social media for people to be able to connect with other people like them and realize
they're not the only ones. I think that has definitely helped to make these supposedly newer gender identities more real, like, I think we've always been ourselves, but were we allowed to be ourselves? I mean, we might as well say like being gay is trendy. Oh, my gosh, there's suddenly so many gay people.
It's so trendy.
We're so cool.
Give us attention.
Yeah, it's like we finally you know, again, for all sorts of reasons, finally have permission, or more permission to express ourselves, to be ourselves, to define ourselves.
And as I'm also thinking, like, from a societal perspective, I'm not even really sure what the big deal is, because like, in a lot of like, it doesn't affect someone's value or worth, like, the way they identify, or what they're comfortable with, or how they
present. And it doesn't really affect, like, their job capabilities, or their intelligence, or like any of these factors, like contribute positively to society, aren't really affected by someone's identity, even like sex and like, with transgender issues, like unless you're in a sexual relationship with that person, like, why does it matter if you know what's going on? You know, it like, like, it doesn't, a lot of it's just like, I don't know, like a weird curiosity, but
like, it doesn't matter. Like you're not gonna, like, ask someone intimate questions about their body, if, unless it's like your business, you know. So a lot of it, I just think, I don't know, like, maybe it's just people being uncomfortable with new terms, or like challenging gender stereotypes. But I'm just like, I don't really see how any of these identities that we've ever talked about on this podcast, like, inhibit someone's ability to contribute to society.
I'm so glad you expressed all of that. And I couldn't have said it better myself. But that is actually something I think a lot about.
Like, Who cares? If you're non binary, agender and I'm gay, like, cool. We're friends. Let's go get lunch. You know.
Exactly.
One thing I've learned. I have, I have a student Well, a few students who identify as transgender and, and I have my classes on zoom. And so you know, I have my name. And one of
And it helps to normalize it. I think it's often them said, said once that it just really meaningful for them when someone puts their pronouns after their name. Like, I don't think I need to do much to present as male I think people know that like to see me as a man. And so I didn't really feel
the need to do that. But then when when my students said that that was really meaningful to them that well, if it's meaningful to them, I'm going to do it because if it if it's something that they care about, then it's it's worth it for me to put a couple extra letters after my name. very hard for non binary folks, especially to kind of make known, not necessarily not necessarily like, what our identity is, but to make known
the pronouns we go by. And so if it's normalized, then, like it doesn't put anyone on the spot.
Is it, is it difficult to identify by pronouns that also can be referred to as plural? Does that make sense? And just maybe this is a bad question, but I'm just like, like he she pronouns are like always singular to one person, but they them pronouns could either be like an individual or a group.
Right. So you kind of referring to like the group they or the singular they.
Yeah.
So for people who are trying to get used to using singular they/them pronouns, first of all, I applaud you for trying. People like me, thank you very much. And second of all, perhaps an example to help aid you in this getting used to, I call it the like the wallet, the lost wallet example. Like if someone had left their wallet on the table. And I think very often, we would simply say, who left their wallet here? Are they going to come back for it?
Right, yeah. And just like that, literally, I mean, you you don't know the gender of the person who left your wallet there. Right, their wallet, who loved their wallet, I don't know, you know, let's go find them. And they're, I mean, then, without even trying, you have already you singular they them.
Nice. I like that. Good job.
We are smart, we don't even realize how we can use a singular they/them.
Thanks for sharing that. That's helpful. So Ben and I were recently on a panel with with a transgender man, and he was like, he's fully transitioned, and he passes very well as male. And he was kind of talking about like, passing privilege. And he said that he hardly ever gets misgendered. Or nobody ever uses the, like the wrong pronoun, because he just looks so masculine male, that people just accept Him as male
now. That also made me think of like, what it's like to not be on that side of things where maybe people aren't sure or, or you are misgendered, or the wrong pronouns are used. And, and I'm wondering if you could speak to that a little bit.
The nice part of it is because of my, perhaps you might say, yeah, my presentation, but also my, what actually, we'll call like my physique privilege, I know that I am fortunate enough to have for the most part, the physique that I am comfortable with, which happens to be pretty androgynous. So it helps me to feel more comfortable as a non binary and
specifically agender person. But the other flip side of that ends up being a lot of people often do misgender me as male, or as a, as a boy, or as a man, actually, often as a gay boy, specifically. You know, my very clean shaven face, and probably a Twinkie of sorts, I suppose. Probably does not make my parents happy. But yeah, sorry, real funny story about that I once told them, like, oh boy
asked me for my number. And they were like, oh, this was before I came out, and they were like, you know, a little bit excited. And then well, turns out because he thought I was a boy.
Awkward.
They did not think that was funny. But anyway, started coming back to this. So you know, for me, I kind of take it in my stride, because I recognize it can, it can be hard to tell largely, honestly, largely, because the non non binary identities are still not as prevalent or as known, or as it is not as recognized, especially with the older generation, I think most of their peers probably do just identify as, you know, as a man or a woman, or as you know,
girls and boys. So it seems and being non binary, really is quite a foreign concept to them. So anyway, just to explain that point. But specifically pertaining to circles where non binary identities are now more prominent, has also, in some way created create an issue with how do you have to present in order to be considered non binary? And in itself it's like a terrible question. Because kind of coming back to our earlier conversation about...
Well, it's like if you're, if the whole point is to reject the binary, then why are you trying to superimpose the binary, the binary on the rejection of the binary?
Exactly?
Well my understanding is, it's not so much of rejection, but just like, I don't need to fit.
Yeah, like if you don't fit in the binary, then like, and you're not fitting the binary, you're trying to superimpose the binary like, ooh, yeah,
It's like, I, there's no way I should present. I'm just going to present the way that feels comfortable to me.
You would think there would be like a more like fluid spectrum to present as a non binary person. And so not exactly. Well, I mean, you both got it right away. But yeah, there is, and so like, the reverse side of that is often what has become the stereotype for non binary folks is do you look androgynous enough? Do you, do you look ambiguous enough.
Again a very silly concept if we are rejecting the binaries altogether as a non binary person and i want to speak to this because because it is it is it has become an issue i mean this issue just to back up a little i mean has there's just a lot actually even in the binary trends the binary trans community where if you don't for example if you're like a trans if you identify as a trans woman but you don't pass as a woman or you can't pass as a trans woman and then there might or there
has been people who who say like oh you're not really you're not really a trans woman you know when because you don't look it. And the same goes for trans men and one of the biggest problems about this too is also well not not just because not everybody might want to pass a large part of it too is a lot of people may not have the accessibility to...
Well it takes a certain privilege to be able to look and dress and like even if you're doing some sort of like medical transition like it takes money it takes time resources and not everyone has access to that is that what you're trying to say?
Yes yes so there are some people who who may not even want to transition but for a lot of people who do want to it is not accessible passing or transitioning is not assess is not accessible they don't have that privilege to financial resources to to necessary procedures to help them to better pass should they want to and often it is a white privilege to have access to these resources especially regarding trans people of color i mean as a transgender community they really fall into
like lower socio economic demographics and then to add to that being people of color as well and then to add to that trans people of color have like the highest rates of like murder and assault in the country. A lot of time like people don't understand them. People feel uncomfortable around them. People don't see them as valid humans.
We need to be a lot better as a society of accepting people who might not look or act or or think like us.
And so i just i kind of want to just let viewers know that like however someone chooses to identify like don't expect a certain kind of presentation from them whether they be binary trans or non binary trans folks are just simply non binary.
So as we're kind of winding down and wrapping things up one of the main thing, themes in what you say that keeps coming back to me is just allowing a sense of individuality in others and not like super imposing your expectations of what someone should be on to them but just almost like just accepting a person as they are and however they choose to present or however they and here i am using the singular they it's really not that hard turns out but like whoever they are just just let
them be that and almost like don't make assumptions about someone before you get to know them and let them teach you who who they are by association.
I've also heard you say a number of times that we should feel comfortable not having to conform to an expectation that feels uncomfortable.
I like that. Thank you for sharing all of that.
Oh absolutely I still remember you had one question about the whole personality thing. That, that was fun. You like, what parts of all these things could just be also just my personality? You remember that?
Oh but but my point that I was gonna make there's so i was thinking about like the ways that I am sometimes gender non conforming and how like and I don't know if it's just my personality or if it goes back into my sexual orientation but there's there's aspects of me that tend to be more feminine depending on like the sometimes aesthetics I like, or music I listen to, entertainment that I
that I take in. Like gender non conforming like as gender non conforming as i could possibly be like I could dress up as a girl like I could be in in full drag doing something very feminine stereotypically but I still wouldn't be transgender I still wouldn't be non binary like like there's and that's what I was trying to say. That there's something deeper than just presentation or interest or
personality. From talking to you and talking to other non binary or trans people I know it's not just like femininity versus masculinity it feels much deeper than that and when I'm with you I don't know how to describe what it is but but it feels there. Does that make sense?
It actually does yeah really I think you explained all that really well
And not nonbinary.
You don't see yourself that way. At the end of the day is how you see yourself it can be all those things but at the end of the day how do you see yourself?
Yeah and again that's just like who a person is and I think that's a really nice I like the way you said that
Thank you so much for asking this. So for me my because it kind of like boils away all these like complications with presentation and femininity and masculinity just like who you are is who you are and like hopefully people can be comfortable and confident in that and then also as like Latter-day Saints as a community and as a society hopefully we can make space where people can be confident in who they are nd still feel valued and loved nd respected So going back to ike terminology I'm thinking
bout how a lot of the terms we se in society are gendered and 'm thinking about like, like my brother, my sister, my daughter, my son. So how does your fa ily refer to you because it's ike they/them pronoun but also t's, does that make parents still refers refer to me as their daughter and my brothers refer to me as their sister and in fact in the future I would refer to myself as a mom
when I have kids. And for me that's okay because to me these because of my personal experiences these terms have meanings that are very special to me so I used to see myself as my parents daughter as my
brother's sister. I have just loved the way my mother was and I really do look forward to motherhood with all that being said why this was such a great question from Charlie is because how I feel about this can be very different from how other non binary individuals feel in fact a lot of them do prefer to go by gender neutral family terms like being their parents' child being their brother's or sister's sibling being or simply you know for people who have kids simply being a parent
rather than specifically being a mother or father so really the only you know the best way to know is just to ask.
And that kind of goes into like the plural and the singular they/them in the same way like if you don't know the gender of someone's child you're not like do you have any daughters you're like do you have any kids you know and then they can that opens opportunity for them to specify either way so that makes sense to me.
Yeah I think in general too like in how we as a way of like how are we as society can also do better through gender inclusive language and it's just simply kind of let what Charlie was saying like especially even within like the LGB communities for someone to us and if you are bringing you know if you are a boy you know instead of asking like oh like is there a cute girl you're seeing you could just be like oh is this someone you're seeing?
I'm totally, I, I will shout out from the rooftops. It's so much better because people like, "Oh so do you have a girlfriend?" I'm like "Really?" Like it would be nice like, "Are you saying anyone? Are you interested in anyone?" like gender neutral terms are super helpful to me there and so i can't imagine how much more it would be for you.
Or even introducing him or not introducing like welcoming group of people we tend to go ladies and gentlemen or...
Brothers and sisters.
Brothers and sisters or boys and girls when we could be like welcome everyone. On this note i would love to share a story.
Please do.
So i know that it can be tricky often for some of us including me to know the correct, how to address someone correctly.So especially I think in a world of customer service that can be really tricky and essentially one day I'm at Costa Vida. I've pretty much always have been misgendered as you know as previously mentioned often more often than not as as male so so people would say, Hi
sir. How may i help you?" and so I'm here standing in line at Costa Vida the person in front of me just got done being helped and I walk up to the line and I again fully expect most likely to be referred to as sir and this man looks at me he goes "How may i help you..." and in a split second he goes "...friend?" and it completely changed my life. I remember grinning from ear to ear for like the rest of the day because I was like that's the word if you're ever unsure just say friend.
That's beautiful thanks for sharing that.
Well Bobbi thank you so much for sharing your life and your experiences with us and your wisdom. We appreciate it.
You're welcome. Thanks for having me.
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