Welcome to questions from the closet. I'm Charlie Bird.
And I'm Ben Schilaty. Each episode we discuss a question that we commonly get asked as LGBTQ Latter-day Saints.
We're not trying to answer this question or come to a consensus but simply sharing our perspectives.
The question we're discussing today is, what does it mean to be bisexual?
Ben and I are not terribly diverse and we share many of the same opinions and life experiences.
For example, Charlie and I both grew up in white middle class America.
However, there are some pretty big differences. For example, I was raised on a ranch, and Ben was raised in a ranch style house.
Also commonly known as a "the ranches." Typically, we record this podcast from a studio, but because of the Coronavirus, we are actually in different states. And we have heard that it's better to record podcasts in a closet because that way the sound doesn't vibrate as much because the clothes absorb the sound. So I actually I don't have there's not a closet in the house I'm in that's big enough for me. I actually made a blanket a blanket fort I'm sitting in right now.
Is it the ranch style house that you grew up in?
Yes, I am in the ranch style house I grew up in with my parents.
That's great. I'm coming at you from my actual closet here in Missouri. And today, we have Vinnie with us. And Vinnie, where are you coming from?
I am also in a closet near San Francisco, California.
Perfect. We're so excited to have you on.
And we're sorry to put you back in a closet.
It's been a while since I've been here, but happy to be here.
So can you tell us something that you're passionate about?
I'm passionate about creating and creating art and creating, creating a world that is better and different than the world that we started with. I'm a choreographer and a dancer. So I use human bodies to create things.
Y'all should see me smiling.
I mean, I don't have Charlie's dance moves. But I do have some of my own.
I mean, you're much better than me.
I'm different styles, different styles. Hard to compare.
What style do you typically dance?
Ballet--contemporary ballet, the one I do, like professionally as my art.
Beautiful.
Vinnie can I tell story when you and I were roommates?
Oh, absolutely. Ab story?
Of course. Vinnie and I were roommates for just like two months. Over one summer, you were like transitioning houses. And so you stayed in an extra room in my house. And one morning, I was doing ab exercises in the living room. And just to be polite. I was like, "Hey, do you want to join me?" And I thought you would say no. And you're like, "Of course." So you sat down and we
did these ab exercises. And by the end, I was just laying on the floor panting and you just got up or like, "Okay, I'm off to run my errands." Like you hadn't done anything because you were so fit.
Yes, it's really just like, Yeah, I don't know, it's a dancer thing. Like, we don't like to be physically beat by anything. Even if we are beat, we still have to like walk away and smile. So rest assured, I felt it.
Well, you pulled it off, I was very impressed. Well, today, we're here to talk about what it means to be bisexual. And so first, I just want to talk a little bit about the Kinsey scale, which is actually decades old and a little too reductive. But the Kinsey scale, labels sexuality on a scale of zero to six. And if you're a zero, you're exclusively attracted to the opposite sex. And if you're a six, you're exclusively
attracted to the same sex. And if you're a three, you're equally attracted to both sexes. And one of the problems with the Kinsey scale is it's just really reductive. And it doesn't take into account a lot of other forms of attraction such as, you know, emotional, spiritual, and those kinds of things. But it's a common way that people used to talk about sexuality. So Charlie, would you say you are on the Kinsey scale?
This is actually funny, because the first time I heard about this Kinsey scale, I was actually in a therapy session. And my therapist was explaining it to me about how there's kind of a continuum of attraction. And I asked him where he would place me on the Kinsey scale, and he was like--he hesitated. He's like, "Nah we probably shouldn't do that, like that's for you to find out." And I was like, "No, no, no, I'm, I'm
really interested." And he said, "How about we do this: I'll write down where I think you are, and you where think you are, and then we'll show each other at the same time?" And I was like, "Alright, alright, alright." So this is when I was
working through things. And I mentioned--Vinnie, I hope this doesn't come across as mean or reductive at all--but I used to use for a little bit I was using bisexual as kind of like a transition phase for me to be okay with the fact that I was attracted to guys at least to admit it to myself. And so I wrote down 3.2--almost equally attracted to guys and girls, but but a little more on the guy
side. And I said, "Okay, 1-2-3," and we flipped our cards around, and he wrote 5.9-6. I wrote 3.2 and I just looking back I laugh. It's just so funny to me. But but these days, I would definitely say he was right. I am somewhere around 5.9-6, full fledged gay,
5.9-6. Vinny, where do you say you are?
I would say I am not on the Kinsey scale, it does not at all seem to accurately represent me and my experience.
Okay.
Well tell us about you and your experience.
Whoo, maybe more specific question about me and my experience?
I think, at least for me, personally, because I am exclusively attracted to the same sex, it's a little bit hard for me to understand what it means to be bisexual. I've actually been really excited for this episode. Because I don't know. It's just something I haven't been able to understand. And I've never really had a conversation, an in-depth conversation with somebody who is bisexual and is willing to share things.
Yeah, so for me, that just means I am attracted to two or more genders, which really for me means any gender, any gender identity, I have the potential to find interesting, attractive, romantic, romantic attraction, sexual attraction or other forms of attraction--just like people, they're real nice.
Okay, so it's not, it's not someone's gender that you're attracted to, it's the person that you're attracted to.
Um, I don't really know what it means to be attracted to someone's gender or not--I because gender is something that I am attracted to. But it's not exclusively that. That's the way I've always gone with "bisexual" or I often go with "queer" as well. Because it's just, it's hard for me to differentiate exactly what about a person I'm attracted to. But I can be attracted to lots of different people for lots of different reasons.
Yeah, how would How would you say your experience being bisexual or being being queer--how is that different from just being a gay woman or lesbian?
Mm hmm. Um, I have heard a lot of, you know, talked to a lot of lesbians about their experience. And there's a lot of ways that there are similarities and crossover. But I just like, still have found men attractive and other things attractive. So it's interesting because of my history, I think, my religious history and upbringing, my relationships to my attraction to men versus women have been
very, very different. And so that's another reason I don't like to rate myself on, "Am I more attracted to women are more attracted to men," because it feels very different for me. Because growing up, you know, I knew that being attracted to women was, from what my perspective, taught to be evil and gross, and like, you know, not appropriate. Um, so I suppressed a lot of that, I avoided a lot of that, and I was
afraid of it. But it was nonetheless there and pretty strong, whereas my attraction to men I was allowed to experiment with and explore with. And so I don't have this feeling of like constantly being longing longing to be with a woman, like a lot of closeted lesbians I've talked to--where they, you know, even if they dated men, they just were like, always longing for a girlfriend or longing for that sort of thing. I didn't really
grow up with that. But I did, I did grow up with like, noticing both attractions and completely trying to shut one down and trying to give space to the other one. But in the end, it just got to a point where it didn't really work, like my relationships with men didn't work very well, because I was, you know, denying and shutting down a whole part of myself.
Okay, you know, I, my experience is very different. But I remember there were like, a couple years of my life where I just like prayed to have my attractions to men go away, and like be changed for attractions to women. And then I got to a point where I was just praying to be bisexual. I thought I can deal with not with not dating men or kissing men or being physical with men. I just want
to be attracted to women. And then when that didn't happen after a long time and praying for that, I said, like, "God just sent me one woman, just one woman that I can that I can be attracted to." And, yeah, it's it's hard to feel like there's this part of you that you're constantly shutting off and trying to turn on this other part.
Vinnie, you talked a little bit about your religious upbringing and how you felt it was more proper to be attracted to men. And now you identify as bisexual and I'm just wondering, I'm curious what you would say to someone who would say, "Well, why don't you just pick one and pick the easy one? And only exclusively date men?"
Oh, yeah, pick the easy one. I've told myself that so many times,--can't you just--yeah, um, so I kind of touched on it a little bit of like, you know, repressing a part of your identity, no matter no matter what--is going to lead to like problems. And like it's hard to connect with people fully if you're not allowing yourself to be yourself fully. So like, I definitely can't just shut that off. I tried and it
didn't work. Um, and then like, even now, I think a lot of people--this is another reason I don't like the Kinsey scale--because they say like, "Oh, well, you know, you can just you can still do the Mormon thing you can still because you're you're not gay enough you're not all the way gay." Just like I don't like bisexual, bisexuality being like a shade of gay you're just like, "light gay," you know?
So to you is being bisexual more about how you view yourself than who you are dating?
Um, yeah, I guess you could say that--there's a, yeah there's a lot of frustration in the bisexual community where like, if you're a woman and you date a man, suddenly people think you're straight. And if you're a woman, and you date a woman, then people like, "Oh, she's actually just a lesbian." When neither one is true, we are bisexual like, and that is our identity, no matter who we're dating. And that's important for us, no matter who we're dating,
Vinnie, I have heard what you were saying--what you're talking about described as "bi-eraser." That you're either not gay enough for the gay community or not straight enough for the straight community. And based on whom you're dating, you kind of lose that identity, or people view you as a certain way. What's that what's that experience like for you?
I do feel like I'm going to be erased, I do feel like, I want that to be able to exist. I think a lot of people I've encountered, which is weird for me to understand, because this is my experience. But people who are gay or people who are straight, have a really hard time wrapping their brain around, being attracted to both. And so and so the world is built up that way. And even like, you know, it's obviously the world
is more heteronormative. But when you go into a queer space, and it talks all about gay and gay men and lesbian women, you're like, cool, but some of us have both, and you're not talking to us at all. And you're not referencing like, you're sometimes, um, sometimes, especially lesbian women will treat me like, I don't have a right to complain, because I can fit in with the world because I can marry a man or I could be
with a man. And that leads a lot of bisexuals to be very more have a lot of anxiety and depression and things like that, because we just feel like, I'm not allowed to complain. But nobody's talking to me. And nobody's, you know, admitting at least that, that there are difficulties about this identity, you know.
So it's like you have this perceived privilege that then leads to people invalidating you in your experience.
That is very articulate way of putting it. Yeah.
What lessons have you seen that stem from your specific and unique orientation?
Oh, that's a great question. I feel like, um, first and foremost, like, I was always, like, I explained, kind of afraid of the part of me that liked women, and, you know, kept thinking like, that was that was my way of being more righteous as if I could shut that down. But like, when I when I got to it, I was so afraid. But when I first was like, I think, I need to use this label. I think this is who I am. I prayed about it.
This is the weirdest thing, but it's, it's the only time this has happened where I felt like I got back an answer that was like a little bit exasperated, like, a little impatient, like, "Yes, I know. And now that, you know, like, we're gonna get some work done with this." And so I felt like, like I explained it, it affects the way I view myself and the way I can connect with
people. And I think it's a real blessing to be able to connect and understand gay men and women, their experience as well as straight men and women and their experience. To feel like I can relate to all sides of that, and I can love all sides of that. And I can love people who are transgender, or who are non-binary things like that. And I think that's like a beautiful
blessing. Like, I kind of think it's a it's a cool thing to be bisexual and to, you know, and I love being a part of the queer community because it's such a loving community. And it teaches me a lot about love, especially Christ like love and unconditional love, and being able to listen to people, give space to people, like all of that has been such a beautiful
thing to learn. And if I had been too afraid to accept this part of myself, I never would have met the people that I've met, and I never would have been able to experience this kind of level of love, which is like, been the best thing ever.
That's very beautifully said. Thank you.
Yeah, you just gave us a beautiful list of things you've learned. What other what other lessons have you learned, that you think God wanted you to learn as as you've stepped into this identity?
Well, that's it's such a beautiful question. Um, well, that that love is good, and that questions are good and progress is good. And if we want to expand the amount of light that we have as human, the light and truth that we have as humans like--we have to go to the dark places, which I was afraid to do you know. You have to bring it back to Eve, my home girl, you gotta like, you gotta take the forbidden fruit, you gotta go to the place where things are gonna get hard and things are gonna
get confusing. And through that you can learn how to be a better person. And like, I kind of feel like that's where the church is right now where we're all trying to figure out what this thing is. But no progress was made for me personally, when I was ignoring and shutting out and closing myself off in a closet, just like this one that I'm in right now. No progress happened in that space. And so it can be it can be scary, like, you don't, you don't want to--and I've changed a lot. And I've
evolved a lot. And sometimes I sometimes I still ask God, I'm like, "I'm sorry, are you disappointed?" Like, I'm not the Mormon girl I used to be like. And I don't ever feel like God's disappointed because I'm trying to find a better, better space for myself and a better space for others. So..
I just had a conversation with a mutual friend of ours, in Tucson, and, and he was telling me about, like, the path he's going on and, and he said, "I don't think God is going to send me to hell for trying to figure things out. I'm going to do exactly what I feel is right. And God is trusting me to figure this out right now. And He's been with me the whole time."
I think a good way to put it is God, trusts me. And I feel like, it's also been a lesson to me that I need to trust myself and I need to trust other people that you know, we're all just trying to do the best we can and to learn how to give other people space and give yourself space to like, maybe make mistakes, but you know, still be at least progressing going in a direction that's useful.
The one thing that I think is so interesting is like to me, like I wanted to identify as bisexual To me it was like, like a, like a crutch, like this thing that was going to like help me be the person that I was supposed to be. And like it, but it wasn't who I was, it was like this suffocating term. But then to you like this the same term, the same thing has been something that's been so freeing and revelatory for you.
Yeah, that's really interesting to hear, too, because I feel the same about the term "straight" or the term "lesbian." Like, neither neither one feels good to me. They all feel restrictive. They both feel restrictive, but this one, obviously, not. And I think that that's interesting. I think the whole thing with like, people who are gay, but start out identifying as bisexual, and
think they're bisexual. I mean, like, I think an important takeaway is like, if someone comes out to you as bisexual, even if they're wrong, even if they're hiding, even if it's a phase for them, or whatever, never ever invalidate that, and never say, "I don't think you're bisexual." Because they might be. And, you know, like, no matter what, just validate where they are. I think sexuality, you know, for some people is very, very clear. They're like, "I
know what this is." But for a lot of us is not very clear, and it takes a long time to figure out. And for some people, that means they actually think they're bisexual, some people think you're only just like, too scared to identify as gay, and they go through that bisexual label. And I think that that's fine. But I think no matter what, like, understand that every identity is real and valid and embrace anybody wherever they are with those labels, you know?
Yeah, I'm so glad you said that. Because I've often felt a little bit guilty for the way I used "bisexual" to kind of like springboard myself into being okay with with being "100% gay" air quotes, you know. But that being said, it really did help me. And I'm so grateful that that was there to kind of put me in, in the place that I was darkest for me, you know. And so I guess I'm grateful to people like you who are visible
visibly bisexual. If even in that small way, those two weeks--it's my joke that I was bisexual for a whole two weeks--but those two weeks really, really helped me get to a place where I could accept myself. And I'm so proud of you. And, and really, it's amazing to see that you've been able to, to find yourself in such what I consider so much more of a difficult space. It's really, it's really beautiful. And you're amazing.
Thanks. Thanks, friend.
Vinnie, I remember when you and I were living together, you were like reading blogs about bisexual Latter-day Sainta or something like that. And, and, and you were telling me, like how important it was for you to find voices that were similar to yours. What what was that like for you to find experiences similar to yours online?
Um, initially, it was pretty difficult. Like I said, most of the queers, the queer Mormon spaces I went to, were all about--first of all, a lot of them were just, "This is my story about my gay son and me being a parent." And I was like, I don't want to hear, I don't that doesn't relate to me. And so a lot of them were gay and lesbian. And but what I found was bisexual, bisexual stuff was,--we tend to be a little bit more hidden for various reasons.
And a lot of bisexuals who got married first and then realized they were bisexual and didn't feel safe to come out because they were happy in their relationship, but they didn't understand, you know. You know, so there's a lot of stories like that of people trying to discover things. But I found it to be one of the most helpful things that I could have done because it kept solidifying my identity, because there were there are a lot of things about the bisexual experience that are
also my experience. And so it was like, "Oh, I'm not the only one. Oh, that's exactly how I felt." And especially right at the beginning. I don't know if you guys felt the same way. Right? When you first start coming out, there's still that part of you that's like, "But I might be wrong. I might be really wrong. And what I have to re-come out to everybody?" I think a lot of bisexuals, still to this day, sometimes I'm like, "I think I'm actually lesbian."
Which I am not. Because Timothe Chalamet me and Tom Hardy exists. So clearly...I will not be lesbian. You know, and vice versa. So we always vacillate back and forth. When you hear stories and things of other bisexuals--it can be really validating. And you know, you realize you sort of think that there's like one story for every identity. And of course, that's
not true. And so you can hear the different the different spaces that that and you know, they're the people who knew when they were five years old, and they're the people who didn't know till they were 40, you know. It's like, you just get to find yourself among those stories, then you find kind of a family, to bond to around that. And that's really nice and really helpful for making you feel confident making you feel a little more safe in who you are.
So Vinnie, you've talked about how sometimes you'll say that you're "bi." And people say, "Well, you're not straight enough for the straight world, you're not gay enough for the gay world." People say this is just a phase or be invalidating that way. Let's say you came out to an important person in your life as bisexual, what would you want them to say? Or ask you?
You know, I don't think there's a perfect way to do it. I just think people who give me space, then to expound upon that, who asked me little questions.
So one of the one of the best questions I was ever asked, after coming up to someone was actually my bishop. He said, "Ben, what do I need to know and understand so I can serve you better?" And that question just made me feel understood, and loved and cared for.
That's a beautiful one. Yeah.
Any other final thoughts?
Um, I mean, we could just like do a quick little mention that bisexuals are not more likely to cheat. I had a conversation with someone at an Affirmation thing where they're like, "I don't understand if you're dating a man. But you're still gonna want to be with a woman." And I'm like, "That's not necessarily how it works." I mean, like, it was just like, if you are married, if you're straight, and you're married to a different gender, you might look at other people, other men
the same way. But you wouldn't want to be with them. Because you've committed yourself to that one person. Bi-sexuals are the same.
Vinnie, thank you so much for being on. You're one of my very good friends. And it's just so good to see you and and hear your experiences. And I'm so glad that you are willing to be so open and honest with us today.
Thanks for having me on. It's good to see you and get to talk about these things. Always. Always interesting conversation.
Thank you for joining us today. Please remember that we do not represent the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints or Brigham Young University.
You're not trying to be prescriptive or tell anyone what to think or do. You were three perspectives today, and there are many, many more.
We encourage you to listen to other voices and hear a wide variety of experiences. If you would like to submit a question or share a comment about today's episode, you can email us at questionsfromthecloset@gmail.com. Until next time...