Welcome to Questions from the Closet. I'm Charlie bird.
And I'm Ben Schilaty. Each episode we discuss a question that we commonly get asked as LGBTQ Latter-day Saints.
We are not trying to answer this question or come to a consensus but simply sharing our perspectives.
Today's question is, should I stay single and celibate?
Ben and I are not terribly diverse, and we share many opinions and life experiences. For example, we are both currently single.
However, there are some pretty big differences. For example, I have been single for a lot longer. I don't know when your last date was. My last date was February 14, 2015.
2015. So that's over five years.
It's been a long time.
He's a single man, folks.
I gotta tell you, though, I've never been hotter because no one is more attractive to someone than wait...
He's hard to get.
I'm unattainable and I'm actually more attractive.
So on our show, we do our best to provide a variety of voices and perspectives. But today's episode is a little bit different and it's just going to be me and Ben.
Yeah, as Charlie and I were considering who to have on this episode, we kind of felt that a lot of people in the past have said that they like set a life plan for themselves that this is what I'm going to do and an end up changing that life course. We don't want to put someone in a position where they're going to say, "Well, this is what my life is gonna look like. And this is what I'm going to do." And then change their mind and feel like they're kind of locked into
that. And we realize with all of our episodes, that's possible. But we just felt like with this episode, in particular, we didn't want to put anyone in a position to have to say, "This is what my life is gonna look like" when it might not always look that way.
Yeah, and I think on top of that, most people in this space are still closeted, and so not really open to kind of being on something like this and being public. So, so we just figured it'd be best if we just kind of did this ourselves. And we hope you don't get sick of us. So here we are. So Ben, to start off, how do you feel about this term celibate?
I don't care for it, because I feel like if people see me as celibate, they're seeing me as not having sex. And I don't like to be viewed based on whether or not I'm having sex. And I had this moment, when I was home for Christmas a couple years ago, I might have mentioned this before, but my mom has Alzheimer's. I was home for Christmas and, and she had changed a lot, like she'd really declined significantly. And I'd
been gone for a couple months. I just remember talking to her, just realizing she was different then going into my room and just feeling like, so sad and so lonely. And so just wishing that I had a partner to share that moment with. Like, I just wished I had someone to just like, hold me and tell me it was going to be okay. And the closest thing I had was my sister. So I called my sister and we talked through
it instead. But I feel like when people look at my life as celibate and saying, well, Ben, you're not having sex like that, really, to me, is really... What's the word I'm looking for?
Dismissive?
Yes. That's the word. It's really dismissive of what I don't have. Like, what I don't have isn't sex. What I don't have is a partner. And that is a very different situation.
I think you make a really good point. I also really don't care for this term for a number of reasons, but one of them is because gay is not equal to sex. Right? The experience of being gay is obviously like sexual attraction and intimacy is part of it but there's companionship, there's compatibility, there's emotional and mental and spiritual attraction. And there's so many things that make up a sexual
orientation. And when we just reduce it down to sex, it gets, like you said, dismissive, and it kind of like, takes away a humanness to a human.
Or at least a complete human because having sex, sexual relations is part of being human.
Right. Right. But like you said, it dismisses part of you. I've, I always say that I don't want to be like reduced to sex. Right. And I think using this term, celibacy puts a lot of emphasis, like you said, on sex. But I've noticed that when people say they're celibate, other people seem to treat it like it's like, you can like turn yourself off like some sort of like robot or, or nun. Like, like a robot that's been turned
off, you know. And so, in fact, honestly, Ben that's what I thought about you for a long time, because it's true before I really got to know you and who you are. Like, I'd had a couple of interactions with you. And actually, can I just share the story now about the first time we met? So the first time I met Ben, it was at an LGBTQ conference. And I was still not really out. Like, I was really putting myself out there that
day. And I meet Ben, and we're in like this Expo Center, and he's looking at Y Mountain out, out into the distance...
It was a gorgeous view.
Yeah, it was, it was really pretty day. And we were talking and he tells me that he's a professor at BYU and I was like, Oh, that's interesting.
I was an adjunct professor but...
So, and then he's like, Hey, you know, we should go to lunch sometime. And, and in Ben's mind, he's like, here's this like, struggling human who is at BYU, who I'm going to invite to lunch. But me I'm like, Oh my gosh, this BYU professor is hitting on me. Like, I cannot believe he had the nerve to ask me out on a date. And I was like, "Maybe. Sure. I'm pretty busy." And it's just funny, but like, so I guess my first impression of you is that you were into me.
Please, you should be so lucky.
But then, you know, I got to know you more. And people often like describe you as single and celibate. Right? And in my mind, Ben Schilaty was no longer a person Ben was like, this unattainable life position of like, robotic asexualism. And that's kind of how I viewed you. I was like, "How is he doing this? I can't do that. I can
never get there." And I would kind of judge myself based on your celibacy level, thinking that you had just found a way to completely curb all of your attractions and feelings, when really that's just what like this term had caused society or other people to think.
Right.
And it wasn't true at all.
Yeah, I don't have an off switch. I haven't turned my sexuality off. I wouldn't describe myself as asexual at all, like I would say, like, within the bell curve of standard, like a, like the average person's sexual feelings as I fall within the average.
Yeah, and it's interesting, because as we talked about how being gay or sexual attraction is so much more than just sex, if you're turning off your whole sexual attraction, and like labeling it as sex thwarting that then at least for me, I, I saw that I asn't able to really be myself, ight? If I'm not honoring my ide tity, it was really affecting t e way I was able to connec with people, just all dif erent facets of my personalit that are affected by my orient tion were also being shut down.
And that's a really, really t ugh way to l
Yeah, definitely. But just, just one more thought about being celibate. I started to dislike that term so much that I just stopped describing myself as celibate completely. And I was at this gathering of LGBTQ Latter-day Saints, and this guy came up to me who was dating and, and he said, "So Ben, you're single and celibate, right?" And I said, "I am not celibate." He was like, "Oh." I was like, "Whoa, whoa, whoa. I mean, I'm not dating and I'm not seeking a relationship.
Yeah, but and again, I just made we should just like coin a new term.
Schilaty-ism.
No thanks. I'm a Schilatist myself. Yeah, I just, I think there's, there's things that we need to unpack and I guess, just educate ourselves and understand that there's a lot more to this than just not having sex, right? And in our identities, and in our relationship with God, it should not be based on like, whether or not we're having sex. You know? I mean, there's there's so much
more to life. And it's really hard for me, especially when straight people and like members of our church community, throw that on me, like, thanks for being celibate. And I'm like, "Ugggh, you're missing the point."
Yeah.
You know.
The hard part for me about being single isn't the fact that I don't get to have sex. Like, the hard part for me is like not having a partner, like not having someone to go through life with. And the few partners I have had like, like girlfriends, and one same sex romantic partner, they've made me like such a better person. Like just being with them just like, made me a better person. And I just like loved being with
them. I loved just knowing that there was someone who had my back, was going to be there for me, who was, you know, I wanted to go do whatever they would go shopping, or go on a hike, or whatever it was I wanted to do, they would, they would be there with me. And I miss that. And that's not, that, that's the thing I'm giving up. I'm giving up companionship.
It's sometimes really disheartening to me, because I feel like the only way to be accepted in our church culture is if you are staying, quote, unquote, single and celibate. Right? People who have decided to take different life paths and date people they are attracted too often are kind of like marginalized and not really
taken seriously, right? It's like, "Oh, I'm gonna discount your opinion or your feelings or your testimony now, because you're making a choice that doesn't go along with the norm." And that's really tough, I think. I don't know. I just, I'm glad we're talking about this, honestly. Because there's there's no cut and dried answers. But this is like conversations that I didn't grow up hearing. You know, just like even this, this baseline fact of sexual attraction is more than
sex. Like, that's not how I was raised or grew up. I'm glad we can talk about this.
One thing people ask me all the time is the people who realize that they don't think a relationship with the opposite sex partner can work so they decided they're gonna stay in the church, they have to be single. Like, well, how do you deal with the fact you're going to be lonely forever? Like, I get, I get asked all, I get asked this all the time like, "How do you deal with being like, the like, the forever loneliness?" And honestly, like, I'm not gonna say that being
single is easy at all. But I think I'm one of the least lonely people I know. Like, I feel like I have a wide breadth of relationships, like just tons of people who love me and care about me. And I'm really extroverted. And I'm just very rarely alone. Like I'm always with people. I feel very loved and very connected. Who I don't have is that really one deep relationship. And so, and that's
a different experience. But like I don't really like I very rarely feel lonely because I just have so many good people in my life and so many good things going on. And so when, when people ask me that, I say, "Well, you know, how are you going to make a life worth living?" The truth is that marriage dosn't fix anything. As I've, as I've grown and matured and seen relationships of friends and, and as a therapist talking to a lot of married couples, a lot of people in marriages are very lonely and
sad. And being married doesn't mean that you're not going to be lonely.
I'm also asked that question pretty frequently. And I don't know I, I try to not take a stance on what my life gonna look like in the future. My life changes a lot. And I just have decided that I'm going to check in with God always and live, how I feel called to live. Like that's my mantra. And I take things one day at a time. And part of the reason for that is because when I was looking at my life in big picture terms, it led me to feel really, really
anxious and depressed. And it distanced me from having a hope in Christ. So when, and like I really tried to peg myself under this, like single and celibate label for a long time. And I was like, I'm going to be stalwart and true, and try and just be celibate, til death, you know? And, as I was living with that, it made my life feel like something that, something to get over. Something that I wanted to be finished immediately, rather than something to be lived and
enjoyed. And like superimposing, this, like, huge, big picture thing onto me, really stressed me out every single day. I see that happen a lot of times with people who are using these terms, single and celibate, to like, describe their, their life path. Because like, all of these things come together and you discount part of you. And at the same time, you're you're putting these like massive expectations on yourself. That, that really today you don't really need to
worry about as much. Does that make sense?
Yeah definitely. You know, I remember I had this one moment where I, two of my very best friends are Kevin and Allison, they live in Tucson. I introduced them to each other. And I remember as they were, like, falling in love and getting engaged, this one night, just like overhearing them, like chat and fall in love. And I just remember thinking, "All my friends gonna leave me alone forever." Like, I'm going to be
constantly left behind. And remember writing my journal that night, just like, feeling really sorry for myself. And then writing, I know that five years from now, I'll be over this, but right now, it really sucks. And five years later, I was living my very best life. You know, it was true, but sometimes, like, it's okay to just, it's okay to sometimes look at the future and just, like feel overwhelmed and sad, and feel despondent, like,
that's going to happen. But as I've looked back on my life, and I've got more life experience than you, but I'm still pretty young at 36, life has a way of working out in really beautiful, unexpected ways. And I've learned that if you would have told 26 year old Ben that I'd be where I am doing what I'm doing at 36 I would have thought you were absolutely crazy.
Right.
And I love my life. And so when I try and pitch my life at 46 or 56 or 66, like there is no way I can even envision what that life will look like. And so I try to just trust that, as I do my best to follow God's will that he will lead me to a life that's more beautiful, and, then I can imagine.
Yeah, that's beautiful. And I completely agree. I resonate. Ben, as you're single, how do you honor your orientation?
I like to make jokes. So like Siri always tells me to go straight, which I think is heteronormative and very rude of Siri to tell me that.
Amen.
Actually my Siri is a man voice and I call him "Serious". But also, you know, I talk about people that I like and people that I have crushes on. And if there's a TV show, like with a male protagonist, I think is is intriguing I'll talk about that. So I don't hide my attractions. And when it's organic and natural, I talk about being gay. And that comes up regularly. So that's one of the ways I do that. How do you do it?
Pretty much the same way. I remember one time I was talking to a friend. And she was like, "What do you do when you see an attractive guy on campus?" I was still at BYU at the time. And I was like, "I look away and I freak out. And I hate myself. And I tell myself that I'm bad." And she was like, "Oh." You know, like, "Oh, oh." And she was like, "Well, why don't you just accept that you find a person attractive and then like, move on." And I was like, you know, maybe I'm gonna
try it. So the next time I saw an attractive man on campus, I was like, "Wow, that's a really good looking person." And then I kept walking and I was like, what's gonna happen? And I was like, "Oh, it's just chill. Like, it's normal." And so like, I've normalized the fact that I am human. You know? Like, and like, it was okay for me to just be like, "Oh, that's an attractive person. I'm attracted to that person. I'm going to go on with my day." You know? And that was just a less rigid way
to look at it. And it is just so much easier. If a girl is like, "Oh, I'm dating this guy." I'm like, "Show me a picture." I'm like, "Oh, he's really attractive." Like, "Dang girl! Good job. He's a beautiful man." You know? And it just feels natural and normal. And, yeah.
Charlie, what's it like for you when you have friends who get married?
It's really hard. But it's, it's, it's complex, because, well, you know, I'll just share an experience I, my best friend growing up, we've known each other since we were like nine years old. And we were some of the only members of the Church in my area where I'm from. And so we just kind of
like stuck together. Our lives have all happened at the same time we came to BYU at the same time, we were roommates, we went on a missions basically the same day, we don't back at the same time, like everything in our life is just, has been so like, parallel. A couple years ago, he got married. And I was the best man. I was super excited. I threw like a bomb bachelor
party. We had so much fun. I like threw the wife's veil and the pictures, you know, helped arrange the flowers, you know, like, I was great at the wedding. I'm good at that stuff.
It's nice having a gay best friend help out.
It is. Um..
Except for me. I don't care for any of that stuff.
Ben's not a design gay. But should I edit that out? Was that mean?
No, it's true. I'm not a design gay.
Anyway, so I'm there in the, in the Celestial Room for their sealing, and I was so happy for them. You know, I was like, wow, this person that I love, found this person that he loves, and they get to be together. And it was beautiful. And I was really happy to be there in the temple with them. And I didn't expect this. But as they were going through, like their vows in the ceremony, I was just struck with this, this
intense layer of sadness. And it was really weird, because, because I was really happy for him. Like, I love him. And I'm so grateful that he found this wonderful girl. But it was really hard to watch him achieve this thing that I want, you know, to have a marriage with someone I love and to commit yourself, like wholly and entirely to this other person and to, to have it be blessed by, by the Spirit and by the church. And I left and I was really broken. I was really
hurt. And, and honestly, it was, you know, I, if I'm being completely honest, I used to judge people a lot for leaving the church. Or for, I see a lot of LGBTQ individuals that seem to try to like, numb themselves of their feelings with different coping mechanisms. And I never really understood that until that moment, when I was completely worthy, really on my "A" game, right, spiritually. And I left the temple after this beautiful experience with my
best friend. And I thought, I want to numb myself to this pain, because it was so hard to watch like the consummation of everything I wanted, in this beautiful spiritual ceremony that I can't have.
Yeah.
It was tough. And like, for the first time I understood. I got, I was like, it's so painful to be a member of the church. And I don't know, where should we go with this? That's just an experience that I just shared.
Yeah.
Now I'm sad.
Charlie, that is a sad experience. It's a hard thing to experience to just see people move on and to have something that you don't get to have. Like, that is a painful thing.
I guess part of the reason I share that is because I hope that members of the church stop judging other LGBTQ individuals for their life choices, because it's so much more complex than just meets the eye. It's not just because, "Oh, I want to go have sex. So I'm leaving the church and being with a with someone of the same sex." But that's not, that's not it. And then, and then it was also really shocking to me, because I was the person who had been judging people who were
leaving the church. Right? And just like, as I used to call it, like jumping off the deep end. But then I was like, it's what I wanted to do. You know what I mean? Because it was just, it was hard. It was so hard to sit in that space.
And this is, this is a complex and long story that I'll share very briefly. But when I was dating this guy, when I was 30, Jordan, he was on his way out of the church, and I was trying to stay in. He was trying to pull me out. And I was trying to keep him in. And that just didn't work. And eventually he ended things because it just wasn't gonna work. We wanted different things. We were going to live in different worlds. And I changed my mind. And I said, "I told him, I was going to pick
him over the church." Like I was gonna choose to be with him. And he being incredibly wise and kind said, "Ben, I know you better than that. You'd choose the church over me in the future." And you know, if he said something different who knows where I'd be right now? I get really like, it really bothers me whenever someone says, "Well, Ben is doing this, so you can do it." Like I am one Jordan's decision away from
being out of the church. But luckily, he loved me and cared about me and knew me well enough to help me make the decision that I, that I could make right then, because I was making a decision based on fear. Like I was afraid of being lonely forever. I was afraid of losing this person from my life. And he was, and he said, "Ben, I know you don't make this decision based on fear."
We really need to stop looking at each other as poster children like something to like level up to and rank with. I m gonna sound like a brok n record. I said this in the la t episode, but like everyone s life path. is different. Y u kno
I want to say something to straight people who are married. I remember one of my good friends when I came out, when I first came out, she's one of the first people I told, and I was really worried about being lonely and sad, or like, that was my fear. Like, those are the words I said, again, again, I'm going to be lonely and sad forever. And she promised me that, that we will always be in each other's lives. And I would always be part of her family. And she got married, and things
were totally different. And, and it just didn't happen that way. But there have been some people like my friends, Kevin and Alison, who have made sure that I'm a part of their family no matter what. Like they make it explicit. And they make it clear. And I remember when the pandemic started, I went down to their house in Arizona and spent three and a half weeks there, like three and a half weeks. That's a long time to be in someone's house. And when I left, they said, "Are you sure
you want to go? Like you can stay longer." And, and when I moved away from Arizona, they made me a promise that we were going to Skype at least every other week. So one of the things that has helped me so much is people in my life, who have made sure that I am part of their family. And like I love like my parents and my siblings and my nieces and nephews. Like, they're wonderful, but I need more. I need people, I need more
people in my life. And so the people who make sure that I am part of their families, they have made all the difference for me. So if you have single people in your life, make them a part of your family.
You know, I want to be really careful when I bring this up. But one thing I see people do quite a bit is trying to find loopholes within my singleship. And Ben, would you talk about that?
Well, I don't want to tell anyone what to think or what to do but...
I'll just keep going. I'm just, I'm just scared of this topic in general. And like, I'm, I was worried about this episode, because I just, this is tough. You know, this is a conversation that people don't have.
Yeah, I think we should say, we should say, "Don't look for loopholes, but just, people, there are people who look for loopholes." Like there are people who are active in the church, and in like committed same sex relationships, but that are still living church standards.
Right.
So and I'm not sure I'd call it a loophole but like that's a thing that people do.
But I guess my only point with this, and I don't know how much I'm going to edit this episode, even because I kind of like this Ben. I like this conversation, because honestly, we're trying to figure it out, too. If I'm being completely honest. Like I said, we're not the experts of any of this, but...
Oh please, I've been single longer than most people.
Okay, five years, get over yourself. There's one thing to like, make conscious decisions to live a certain way. It's another thing to like, feel forced into something or make decisions based out of fear, or regret or shame. You know, and I think sometimes it just gets emotionally dangerous when when your whole decision making process is based out of "I'm scared of what's going to happen in the future."
Yes.
And, and, and like I said, it's hard. It's weird. It's it's ugly, and complex, but like, I've really tried to remind myself always to check in with God. And like I said, live how I feel called to live. And just do that the best way I can, and not like superimpose other people's ideas of what I should be doing. Or like religious conflict that's in my heart that kind of grows and turns into paranoia. Like, there's a lot of
bad stuff that's happening. And occasionally, I've had friends who've gotten in like, some emotionally turbulent relationships, because all of this is compounding together. And it's, I don't know, it's hard, you, you have to be honest with yourself, you have to.
Definitely. What you're saying really resonates with me. And I, like as you were talking about your sadness at your friend's wedding. I used to feel that way, too. I haven't felt that way for a really long time now. And I think the thing that changed for me is instead of looking at what I don't have, what other people do have, and feel like I'm gonna be constantly left behind, as I've like, gone to God and like,
received personal revelation. As I see people do other great things in their life I see, well, this is the way God has called me to live. This is what I'm feeling called to do. And even though people have beautiful lives that are different than mine, I can see God guiding me on my path. And that makes that makes it okay. And I feel like, like personal revelation is kind of the antidote to jealousy.
Yeah, because I was just gonna ask that. Did you used to feel jealous of people who had like, left the church and were in relationships?
Of course.
Oh, me too, all the time. And especially when people like, left the church, were in a relationship, and then came back to church. I was so jealous of them because I was like, "Wow, they got everything I wanted." And then, you know, like, came back and were repentant and, and got to have all these experiences that I long for, and then came back as if nothing ever happened. And I was like, Ooooh, I hate them. You know? And that's like, I don't know that, I used to feel that so
much. I love that personal revelation is an antidote to jealousy. That is beautiful.
I've never been jealous when people have left the church but I have been jealous of people who like get to find their partner and...
I'm gonna back up there because I just did something that I don't like when people do. I assume that going into a same sex relationship was leaving the church. I disagree with that. I don't know why I said that. I guess it's just because of like, that's what everyone else assumes. And honestly, that's the experience I had, most of the time, people who were in same sex relationships have left the church. Well, and I think that just goes back to this idea of like, there aren't options.
Like, for so long, it was ingrained into me that there were two options: You stay in the church and you're single and you hate yourself; or you leave the church and you find love and you hate the church. You know? And, and that's not true. That's not the binary world that we live in. And like,
Not only is it like reductive, but it's so untrue.
It's so untrue. Like there are, I know, same sex couples that go to church. There are different options. And I think it's healthy to acknowledge different options, and then pray about you, and who you are, and where you're at. And go forward with your own personal revelation of where you need to be fitting right now. One thing I'll add is people ask me the same question, "Like how can you live, knowing you're going to be alone forever?" Like that, that thought never even
crosses my mind. Because the way I see it, I'm fitting where I know that God needs me to fit right now. It could just be a coping mechanism, not thinking about my future that much. And it probably is, if I'm being honest. But it's one that's really working for me, and I feel healthy. And the fact that I don't worry about these massive what ifs 10 years down the road, because I'm like, you know what, I feel great today. I'm doing what I need to do
today. And if tomorrow it changes, I feel like comfortable enough that I can make a change, and be happy with that too. And just follow God and keep my values. And all of this past like religious and emotional, like experience and growth that I've had are still with me, so I'm going to be in a safe place in the future. And I feel okay with that.
Yeah. And I think this like trusting God, that he's got our back and he's got a future that's great for us planned is really important. Because I remember when I was like, I don't know, I think I hadn't even come out to my parents. I was like, 23, and my dad gave me a blessing where he said that I would be saved in the highest degree of the celestial kingdom. And my thought to that, like my response to that in my head was, "Oh, shoot" because that meant I had to be sealed to woman
forever. And I remember, like, the idea of like, that being so terrifying, because like being married, and having children, like right now sounds like not what I want and the idea that like that was eternity. Like, I don't want that heaven, like exhaltation to me, honestly, is unappealing.
Totally.
But at the same time, like, that's what I'm working for. Like, that's what I'm working towards. Like, I just trust that, that this path is a path that God wants me on. And honestly, like, It's not scary or frightening, because I've seen things work out so well. And I've moved around a lot in my life. And every time I've gone to a new place, I like imagined what it was going to be like when I got there. And every time it was different. Yeah, nothing like I expected.
Totally.
And so I know that the way I envision, you know, future life for Ben. I'm wrong. And the way I envision Heaven, that's not it. Things are going to be different when, like I don't know how they're gonna be. But I trust that God is like, God is good and loves me. And at the end of life, he's not going to be like, "Aha! Gotcha. Here's your wife, sucker." You know?
Nooooo!
But the reason I say that is like, we're not, like the way people often try and comfort me because I'm single, like, "Well, some day you'll be married to a woman." I'm like, that's not comforting to me.
We don't want that.
Yeah, like, don't give me an outcome. Like help me build my faith in God.
Oh my gosh, Ben, that's beautiful. That's amazing. I keep thinking I don't want to dishearten people, but you know, I used to look at people as examples of singleship whenever...
Singlehood? Singleness?
Singleness, and then they would not be single, as they had, like, promised or whatever to do. And then I was like, "Oh, another example fallen." You know? And I, I don't want to dishearten people, but like, honestly, most people aren't always single. You know what I mean? Like, pretty much, almost every gay member of the church I know, has dated, or had some sort of, like, romantic experience with someone of the same sex. Like, that is natural.
It's normal. It's common, and it's probably gonna happen.
I mean, the truth is that, that I know, many hundreds of gay Latter-day Saints and almost all of them have been in some kind of same sex romantic relationship. Almost all of them. I mean, I've had the one. But that was a really important formative experience for me. I'm not saying that people should date but it's, it's just a reality. It's a lived experience for most of us. And that's, that's part of life's journey.
Right? And, you know, we plan on doing another episode on same sex dating and experiences with that, but I think it's just important to note that like, no one decision is ever damning, nor final. You know? I mean, that is the beauty of agency and the Atonement of Jesus Christ. Like, we can always recalibrate and see where we're at and see if we're happy and if we're, if we're facing God. And we're going to stumble
through this 1000 times. And I guess for just anyone who's listening who's like really like, trying to like grip on and staying like, single and celibate and is dealing with all of this pressure. Like, that's a lot of pressure to live under, you know? And if you step back and just like, you're gonna be safe, like, go ahead. And what were you saying?
Well I was just gonna say, sometimes people say, "Oh, well, Ben you're single because you work at BYU." I'm like, "No, I am not single because I work at BYU." Like I, this is what I have chosen to do. And then I have also chosen to work at BYU. And if I chose a different life path, I could leave my job at BYU and get a different job.
Exactly. And you would still be Ben. You know? You would still have a lot of faith and you would still probably read your scriptures. And you'd still have close relationships with your family and friends. And you're not going to turn into like, a worse version of yourself, because you're making a choice that you feel compelled to make.
Yeah. Can I share something that was a little helpful for me...
Please.
...years ago, when I was deciding, like, how to move forward?
Yeah.
So there are people who are single by choice, and people who are single by circumstance. And for me, it was really hard to feel like I was single and it wasn't my choice. And I feel like my heart really goes out to people who like, wish they were married, that wish they were dating, whether gay or straight, and just can't find that person. And honestly, like, for me, I feel like it's a lot easier to be single because it's my choice. Like, I don't feel like, I don't feel undesirable. I
don't feel rejected. Like, I feel like, and I could be totally wrong, but I feel like if I were to pursue dating and marriage, I feel like I could be successful. And so I feel like, like making this a conscious choice instead of just circumstances then it's so freeing for me.
Yes, yes, yes, yes. Agency is not about choosing between right and wrong. It's about the ability to choose like that is empowerment. And so if you're making like conscious, intentional decisions about the life path that you're on, and where you're at every day, then you're going to be so much more able to feel close to God and feel the love of others. You kind of like open this conduit to let like hope flow through you instead of feeling like
you're cornered. And like, like I used to, I honestly feel like there was somebody with a pitchfork that was like shoving me into a corner. Like, "Stay single. Stay single. Stay single. Hide yourself. Hide yourself." And once I realized that wasn't true, and that I could go anywhere in the room that I wanted to, it made me like, happier staying in the space that I was in.
I really wanna talk about like, how to be happy single.
Go for it. Yeah.
So one of the chapters that really helped me in the
Yeah, that's so beautiful. It reminds me of the scriptures is 1 Corinthians 12. And that's where Paul talks about the body of Christ. And he says, "We can't all be eyes. We can't all be ears. We can't all e hands. We can't all be f et. Because if we were all e es, then we couldn't hear anyth ng. And we were all ears t en we couldn't see anything. N w God has made us differ nt on purpose. And the body of hrist is filled with all kinds o
different people. And as I fel a calling to be single, I trie to think, you know, What is it that I can do as a single perso ? And when I was living in Tu son, I met this woman in my war , her name is Georgina, and she was in her late 50s. She has s nce passed away, but she was really anorexic. And she as like 70 pounds. And I drove her to church one day, and sh just told me that she was lonel . And I said, well, let's go to lunch this week. And so
I took her to lunch. And she ask d me if I was a writer while we were eating, and I was like, I guess. I mean I write for s hool." She's like, "Well, I'v been wanting to write my li e story. Will you help me writ my life story?" And I was ike, "Sure, why not?" And o every week, we would go to lunch, and we would eat. And th n when I was done eating she wo ld just telling me stories. An I would just type them up on y laptop. We did that for w eks. And then we finished that.
nd we kept going to lunch every week. So for a year and a ha f, I took Georgina out, out to lunch. And, you know, I was in y early 30s. And had I lived a q ote unquote, like normal life, I would have had four kids an I would have would have had wife, I wouldn't have had an time to be with Georgina. But instead, as a single person, I h d two hours in the middle of a eekday to spend time with this woman who really needed a friend. And you know, and th s wasn't like some great thing
that I did. Like she enriched my life so much that she was one of the most important elationships I had in Tucson And I remember after she died her, her teenage son contacte me and, and we hadn't told him hat we'd like written this lif story, and he found it in her belongings. And he told me how g ateful he was that he had t is record of her life. A d you know, that wouldn't have h
ppened, had I not been single. A d so there are things that a that a gay single man can do hat a straight married man can't do. And I want to be the feet r the ears or the, the person th t's going to do those things. And so I used to see seeing s ngle, I used to see being single as a deficit. But honestly, it is one of my greatest strengt s. A couple years ago, I was a emple worker in the Provo
emple. And there's this phras that's mentioned again and agai in temple ordinances that come from Genesis where God commands dam and Eve to be fruitful and ultiply and replenish the earth And so I thought, "Well, how can I as a single person, l ke keep this commandment t be fruitful, multiply and repl nish the earth?" So I spent lot of time pondering those w rds in the temple. I thought w ll God...Like to me, they'd a ways meant to have children. Lik all three of those words m
ant to have children. And I hought, "Well God wouldn't use hree words to say the same thin . Like there must be something to it." So I started ponder ng each word like what does it ean to be fruitful? What does i mean to multiply? And what do s it mean to replenish the ear h? And so, you know, being fruit ul, like our fruits are our works. Like, how do I have good orks? What does it mean to m ltiply? Like, how do I multiply y talents. And I think multiply might actually mean just to
have children. What does it mea to replenish? And I realized I idn't know what the word repleni h meant. So one day after wor in the temple, I went home and went to thesaurus.com, and I looked up the word replen sh. And some of the symptoms we e to renew and refresh. I tho ght, well, how can I renew and efresh the earth? And I though I could plant a tree, or I co ld recycle. And that seemed real y like shallow to me I thought.
nd as I pondered it more like this was a weeks long proce s, I realized that the Earth w s made for God's children. So i I'm going to renew, refresh, and replenish the earth, I eed to renew, refresh, repleni h God's children. And so made a new goal, a ne daily goal that everyone I in eract with would feel re ewed, refreshed, and repleni hed because they interacted wit me. And that's the way that I k ep that commandment that God ga e to our, to our first parents o be fruitful, multiply, a
d replenish the earth. And I scripture in the Doctrine and Covenants that talks about how we are commanded to be anxiously engaged in a good cause. And it's just, it goes back to intentional living, like making sure that you're backing up your choices with like, actually, because that's where you want to be like, that's the space you want to operate in. And then that's obviously where you're going to be most fulfilled.
Like, if you're living your life, according to your personal values, you're going to find fulfillment. And that's not going to be easy. And like you were talking about in the temple, like, I love that you leaned into that discomfort to like, figure out what that meant for you. Because it was something that was kind of like, cause friction, right? And it's so interesting. I always like, am honestly astounded because I had a very similar experience
with the same words. Right? And so as we lean into those things that kind of like rub against us, we can we can find answers for ourselves. I like you, fee called to be single right now, feel like this is where I nee to fit right now. I'm doing i and I'm really happy. Like honestly, I'm, I'm reall grateful. And I understand tha I can pivot and do whatever want in the future. But like right now, this is what I wan to be doing, you know, I'm no
forced into it. That doesn' mean it's like always, like fin and dandy. There are some thing that like cause a lot of friction and still cause pain. And you know, I'm sure if I went to another wedding next week, I would still have similar feelings. And you know, sometimes if I go to the temple, or I go to church, like it's still a little bit like, sometimes hurts, you know, and so it doesn't mean that like, I'm not in the right place, because everything's not perfect.
Yeah, definitely. And I would say, for anyone who's like single and struggling, I'd say find your family, like find the people who are your family. Like right now I live with an 86 year old widow. And about a year and a half ago, we were talking about the Come Follow Me program. And I was just doing it on my own. And she said, so how does this new program work? And I said, "Well, you read the scriptures every week with your
family." And she said, "Well, what if you don't live with your family?" I said, "Well, you do it on your own." And she said, "Maybe we should do it together." And so Charlotte and I started reading the scriptures, like almost every day together. Like we did the Come Follow Me reading every week. And I'd have friends over often in the evenings, and they would read with us. And these were like the most beautiful,
fun experiences. We, as we just like talked about the scriptures and laughed and often ate food. And, you know, like, what a beautiful life I get to have. You know, I'm sure Charlotte would rather have her husband there who was passed away. Would I rather be with my spouse as well? Yes. But instead we have each other. And I think that God can, can do a lot to give us the people in our lives, we're gonna really make life beautiful and
meaningful. I spent far too many years of my life, being sad about something I didn't have, instead of being grateful for the things that I did have.
So Ben, how do you feel about being single and celibate?
Honestly, I always say the better question would be like, "How do I feel with my life?"` Now I feel really good with my life. And my life happens to be a life where I don't get to have sex. I don't have a partner. But I have a lot of other wonderful things.
Great.
How do you feel about your life, Charlie, single and celibate?
I just feel really empowered that I can live how I feel called to live. That just makes me really happy. And that I can allow others to do the same. And that puts me in a good space where I'm happy with what I'm doing and I'm not jealous of what somebody else is doing. And I'm just, it's a healthier space for me. And I still hate the word celibate, but it's fair and I'm gonna try to debunk it as much as I can.
If someone asks you, "Should I be single and celibate?" What would you tell them?
I'd say listen to my podcast is called Questions from the Closet and we have a 30 minute discussion about it. I would say, um...I would say realize that you can seek heavenly guidance concerning your identity and, and do what you feel like is best for you and where you're going to be in the like, the best spiritual, mental and emotional State and then go for it.
Yeah. And just to go along with that I would say, seek the guidance of the Holy Ghost for specific personalized direction on your path.
Absolutely.
That's the very best way to live. I am just so grateful to like right now I am in a state where people aren't trying to marry me off. They're just, they just love me for who I am. And just take me how I am. And I just feel very grateful that, that, that I live in a place where that is, that is a possibility where people aren't trying to force me to be something, but just love me for who I am.
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You heard two perspectives today. There are many, many more. We encourage you to listen to other voices and hear a wide variety of experiences. If you would like to submit a question or share a comment about today's episode, you can email us at questionsfromthecloset@gmail.com. Until next time.