Should I label myself?

spk_1:   0:04
welcome to questions from the closet. I'm Charlie Bird

spk_0:   0:07
and I eventually Addie

spk_1:   0:09
each episode. We discuss the question that we calmly get asked as LGBTQ latter day Saints

spk_0:   0:13
way. We're not trying to answer this question or come to a consensus, but simply sharing our perspectives.

spk_1:   0:19
The question we're discussing today is

spk_2:   0:20
should I label myself so? Ben and I are

spk_1:   0:23
not terribly diverse. We share a lot of the same opinions and life experiences.

spk_0:   0:27
So, for example, Charlie and I are both tall. We're both roughly 63 which means that we have a great vantage point at parades and were easy to spot in a crowd. All

spk_1:   0:34
right, we know what it's like to be crammed in the backseat of a car. Um, but we also have some pretty big differences.

spk_0:   0:41
For example, Charlie is an amazing dancer. He can dance like no one's watching in front of millions of people.

spk_1:   0:46
Yeah, and when band dances, nobody really wants to watch,

spk_0:   0:49
which is true.

spk_1:   0:50
So because of that, um, because we're so similar, we want to provide a variety of voices of perspectives on this show. So today we're joined by agreed. Hello. Create. Tell us a

spk_0:   1:03
little bit about yourself.

spk_2:   1:05
I'm from San Diego, California area. This my last semester at BYU, I served a mission in Argentina studying family life. I plan to be a therapist at some point. So grad school. But for now, we'll be taking a year or years of break to make more money, gets more work experience and figure out for sure Exactly what I want to. D'oh!

spk_0:   1:28
So, taking a gap year or gap years? Correct. Great. We might be quarantined because of Corona virus.

spk_2:   1:34
So lots of time to think about stuff, I guess.

spk_0:   1:37
Right? So positive that joke won't be topical.

spk_2:   1:41
Well, we're really glad

spk_1:   1:41
you're here to join us. And today we're gonna have a conversation about labels. And so I figured to get things kicked off, we should probably go over the existing acronym LGBT Q plus and s s a

spk_0:   1:52
all right, So the l and L G B T Q I A plus stands for lesbian, which is women who attracted to women. I'm sure most people know what that means right on. And then the G is gay. Typically, men who attracted other men and gay can also be used. Describe women the bee is bisexual, so people who are attracted to more than one gender. The tea is transgender, which is someone who was assigned one sex at birth and identifies as a different sex or anywhere on the trans gender spectrum, including non binary or a gender or gender nonconforming. Q can stand for questioning or queer some of his questioning is someone who was wondering if they fit on the LGBT. Q. I A Plus Spectrum and Queers, an umbrella term that could just really mean anyone who isn't a heterosexual or CIS gender. Uh,

spk_1:   2:42
I'll just I'll just jump in there, sis. Gender means you identify as your sex at birth sex assigned,

spk_0:   2:49
Um, and I stands for intersex. So a person who has biological characteristics of of two sexes or more than one sex so someone could have chromosomes that are neither male nor female

spk_1:   3:05
and then a would be a sexual, huh? Yeah. I mean, you don't really feel physical attraction,

spk_0:   3:11
sexual attraction, sexual

spk_2:   3:12
attraction. So, yeah, there's a lot of labels. Um, I'll add a within the

spk_1:   3:16
Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints. Many people identify as essay or same sex attracted and each of these identities are different and mean different things to different people. And so today we're gonna try toe, explore that in each of us are gonna talk about how we identify and why, and when we started using labels and kind of how that's either hurt or helped us in the past,

spk_0:   3:40
So why don't we start with Creed? Could you tell us how you self identify now?

spk_2:   3:45
Right now, Identify as same sex attracted or I experienced same sex attraction for the most part. A lot of times when I'm with my friends or even family, I just say gay just cause it's less syllables and it'll be easier to say and they know what I mean when I say it.

spk_0:   4:01
Okay, so you have this way. So you identify as gay just as a way to facilitate conversation.

spk_2:   4:09
Correct. When it's like, easier just to say gay, which is a lot quicker and faster than S s A and I don't I don't mind the switching of of words. What I really care about is like people knowing who I am and what I stand for, what I ah well, my plans are, and once they know that I don't really care what label I use it. So initially I use same sex attracted because I feel like that more so, uh, fits with my golden plans for life and how I experienced life in general. So whereas another label might have different connotations just for me personally, So for now, that's kind of how I generally present myself. But once people know me, I don't care about labels.

spk_0:   4:53
Okay, What is it about essay or same sex attracted that feels more authentic? Shell in your experience.

spk_2:   5:00
So for me, I just see as a part of my life as sure lens that I view the world. I mean, I'm more attracted to the people of the same sex. Um, but and I think that just works. I think that's just ah, logical. Correct. Our true term. Maybe more scientific kind of thing. I'm big into science, and we're at least social sciences, and I just find it to be just a natural truth about my life. I am same sex attracted, like that's just it. Um, but I don't quite, um, identify with the gay label, for example, in in public settings yet I'm just saying this because sure, it could change based off my life circumstances what I choose to do. But for now, I don't do that because I feel like generally it comes with a connotation of. I want to engage in dating of people, the same sex or sexual behavior with the people of the same sex. And that's just for me. When I hear somebody else talking about their own, Um, label, whether that's gay or bisexual, whatever. I also because I'm familiar with the community. I don't like assume anything. I kind of want to ask them. Well, how do they live their life if I want to know what their life is like? Sure with that, that first label. It tells me a little bit about their sexual attraction. But that's really it, Um, but for other people who aren't as familiar with the community, they might assume certain things about someone. If if they use a certain label,

spk_1:   6:41
I think you make a really good point. Words are kind of placeholder cz for meaning, and sometimes they mean different things to different people.

spk_0:   6:47
So throughout my life I've used different labels to describe myself at different points in my life. I'm 36 now. And when I first started realizing that I was attracted to men when I was in when I was in middle school, there's no way I would have called myself gave. In fact, people asked me if I was getting my name Is Ben Gay? Sorry. Oh, people used to tease me and call me Ben Gay

spk_1:   7:13
because of the cream,

spk_0:   7:14
right? Of course, it didn't affect me.

spk_2:   7:17
Of course not. Horrible.

spk_0:   7:20
It's okay so people would ask me if I was gay and I would say No, I didn't feel like I was lying. And I remember there was this girl when I was in high school who asked me if I was gay, and I said, I am not gay and she insisted that I waas. I said, I'm not gay and she said, Well, you might not be now, but you will be in the future, which is kind of her checkmate. And that freaked me out because I so did not want to be gay. And then when I started coming to terms with my orientation in when I was in my twenties, I started to identify his same sex attracted or having S s a but that term just never really liked Sat well with me. I don't know why I just never really I never really felt like he described who I was. And so with my friends, after I started coming out, I had a different nickname for my orientation, which was Hannah Montana. Yeah, it is because I was spending the summer in Mexico and I would go home from work every day and watch an episode of Hannah Montana, and I was very embarrassed about it. So I was talking to my friend Craig, and I was that Craig, don't tell anyone about Hannah Montana, and I was like, Oh, that's a good nickname because he gets

spk_2:   8:20
the best of both worlds

spk_0:   8:21
and she has the secret that only her close friends and family know about that maker. The nature Super awesome. Ah, So for years, I just called my orientation Hannah Montana, because the term essay didn't really feel like it fit for me. And neither did the term Gay.

spk_2:   8:33
What a nickname. Why not just make up a new label and identifies that right? Ben Gay?

spk_0:   8:38
Yeah, it was actually very sad when I came out publicly on my block and started clawing myself based on, my friends were like, So we're not calling it Hannah Montana anymore. It's like this little club we had kind of died away

spk_1:   8:48
like retired term,

spk_0:   8:49
actually Block Post called the Death of Hannah Montana, which is not a

spk_1:   8:53
war between dark or the transformation of Hannah Montana. That's better. You

spk_0:   8:58
know, that would have been better, but I should go back to 2015 and fix that

spk_2:   9:03
only. Yes. So for a while, I mean, most of once, I,

spk_1:   9:07
like, actually would fess up to the fact that I was attracted to men on this is, like, probably post mission. I identified the same sex attracted s s a for a while, and, um,

spk_2:   9:19
I kind of had a similar

spk_1:   9:20
experience to you, Ben. I the longer identified that way, the more it felt like it was this thing, like an outside influence or a force that was like chasing me around. And I felt like I was always running from it. And for so long, I had tried to run away from just like my orientation in general, and it kind of like validated that feeling of I was in danger too, to say that I'm experiencing same sex attraction and it made me feel like it was a condition. So I'm actually really intrigued Creed that to you it, like, feels right and scientific and because for me, it just like it just gave me a lot of stress and anxiety. Um, I started transitioning into saying I was gay and I really don't like this stigma that sometimes comes without label. I think there's a lot of perceptions about what being gay is or how gay people act. Um, but more than anything, it just, um EDS. I felt like it was the only widely accepted term that implied my orientation without being like, so focused on the sexual aspect of it. Because for me, I think my my orientation in my label, I wanted to encapsulate more than just sexual attraction. And so, to me, I think gay is a better representation of the way I connect with people and how we see the world in my creativity and all these other really valuable things that I think my orientation helps bring into my life. That label just sits better with me

spk_0:   10:49
like you're not just oriented towards men sexually, but emotionally and spiritually,

spk_1:   10:53
right? And and I think it also is It goes into the way I connect with different people. Like being gay allows me to connect with with women a different way to actually, I'll just given example today. I was I was, um, wedding dress shopping with my cousin, which is so fun. I loved it. And there was all these other ladies, like trying on wedding dresses. And somehow I don't know if there's, like, a gay energy that I have, and I wasn't doing anything. I'm just sitting there helping my cousin. But then other girls would come over and ask me questions, and I'm like, like, leading the entire, uh, you're the expert. I'm like, expert. And the ladies were helping the dresses like Okay, like, yeah, just go ask him. You know, And so I I think to meet gay kind of like, encapsulate ce that side of my personality. And not just that I am attracted to guys

spk_0:   11:45
creator. Their experiences that have led you to identify the way you do now.

spk_2:   11:50
Sure. Um, well, just listen to Charlie. I mean, I totally agree that there are so many different aspects to attraction than just sexual. Ah, there's the romantic, the cognitive spirituals, the aesthetic, so many different ways to look at it. And it's so hard to encapsulate inside one word, but also experiences. Um, like you're asking about Ben somewhat for me. Personally, I'm very much open to the idea of marrying a woman. Still, that's been my goal. And I've tried like I was engaged once, and then it didn't work out, and I learned a lot from that, but I'm still open to the idea. So one reason another reason why I I perhaps identify a same sex attracted is because maybe identifying as gay I publicly at least maybe shuts people's view of me off from me potentially being a dating partner. I know that can be so tricky and, like, mess with people's brains and I don't ever want to like, um, you know, leave girls on or anything cause obviously done that in the past. CAS gay guys are so nice, right? Just were the typically I don't know, stereotype? No. No, but, uh, yeah, so, um, that also goes in hand with my goals and plans and experiences. Just I'm open to the idea of marriage, and I don't want quite shut that off yet. So maybe being maybe talking in this way or labeling myself in this way is beneficial for that. And I'm like I said, my ideas might change. Maybe I'll feel comfortable just saying gay in the future, but also explaining, Hey, but if you want to go on a date, let's let's give it a try, you know? But for now, that's what I'm comfortable with. Okay? I really

spk_1:   13:42
love that. You said that your ideas might change. And I think keeping yourself open to change is so important. At least for me, it was because so many of my my my thoughts and just as I became more educated and more mindful and aware of myself, the words I used to describe myself change and kind of my the way I saw a lot of this has shifted and I think giving yourself out leeway. Um, I mean, I even actually identified as bisexual for, like, two weeks just because I was trying to

spk_0:   14:11
hold two week

spk_1:   14:12
the whole two weeks because I was trying so hard to to not identify as gay, you know, And I didn't want to. So I was just trying to like, air on the side of straight and and I know that's not even what bisexual means, or especially to like. I hope that doesn't come across as as offensive to anyone who is bisexual. But But that was like my kind of like, transitioning period that allowed me to actually be okay with who I am. And so I I really appreciate the like, sharing your experience with being open to changing labels and and, um,

spk_2:   14:48
yeah, yeah, I definitely think it's like super healthy to just have an open mind about what just feels right for you and not to shut anything off because of, um, maybe past ideas or baggage that comes with certain label. I think it's really healthy and important for people to, you know, kind of maybe explore certain labels and give things to try instead of just shutting things down right away

spk_0:   15:13
and then honoring the label that someone chooses correct. I remember in my twenties people would ask me if I was gay and I would say no, but people who knew that I was attracted to men would use the word gay, and I would say No, no, I'm not gay. I have same sex attraction. Ah, and now I feel exactly the opposite. Like I would say, I am gay. I don't have same sex attraction because that doesn't I really feel good. Too many more is because of very personal experiences. Like when I was in my twenties, I was trying so hard to change my orientation. I was praying and fasting and go into the temple so I could could be straight. And those were some dark, tough times when identified as having S s a or being same sex attracted. And so now when I when I when someone calls me that or identifies me, is that like it brings back those dark times in those bad memories. And so for me, saying I'm gay is just part of accepting that this is one of my characteristics as something that I tried to change and couldn't say I'm going to live that my best life the way that I am,

spk_1:   16:08
that's really cool. I want to read a quote from President Ballard and this was at a Beaulieu devotional he did in March. Um, he said

spk_0:   16:17
March 2000 20

spk_1:   16:18
years 2020. Yeah. Recently, he said, May I remind you that there is one important identity we all share now and forever, one that we should never lose sight of, and one that we should be grateful for that is that you are and always have been a son or daughter of God with spiritual roots in eternity. And I think, I mean, since the question that we're discussing today should I label myself, I think remembering for me remembering that I was a child of God, that I am a child of God. Help me figure out how I should label myself. And if I should label myself and I advice I would give Thio. Anyone who's trying to figure out what label works for them or how open to be is, is to pray about it because it ended the day we are Children of God and he wants to guide us and lead us. And, um, it's just so interesting to me that the three of us are all, um, gay, gay or same sex like. At one point, we've all labeled ourselves as essay, but it meant very different things to all three of us. And I think, um um, Heavenly guidance could be, at least for me was So it's been so integral and helping me figure out which label works for me. And and I'm okay that it's different for different people as long as they're connecting with God and in receiving guidance. Son, how does that make sense?

spk_0:   17:40
Yeah, Charlie, do you feel like God has inspired you to call yourself gay?

spk_2:   17:44
Yeah, I really D'oh! Yeah, yeah. Should I talk about that more? I guess

spk_0:   17:51
I never thought about because God inspired me to self identify as gay, and I'm not. I can't think of a time that that happened. I'm not sure that's been my case, but it's been what has felt right and comfortable to me.

spk_1:   18:01
Yeah. Yeah. And I even think that God inspired other people to help me make that transition. Because, like I said for me, S S A was so, um, so terrifying. It felt so looming to me. And I think I had a therapist and I had some, like, my sisters and some really good friends who once I was like coming out to them could sense that and helped me realize that I could be gay. And the I don't have to subscribe to the same preconceived notions that that I was subscribing to, you know, because I didn't want to say I'm gay And then people think that I was, you know, like somebody that I'm not. I was so afraid of that. But I realized that I can self identify in my own way and just that helps me like, OK, I'm gay. But I'm I'm like my version of gay. I'm Charlie. You know,

spk_2:   18:51
exactly. I think I think it's so important that when we do label ourselves whatever way that people just take us, we'll take anybody as a human being. And if they really want to get to know someone, they need it. Ask or delve into their story reads, read upon their story, because everybody is so different, no matter what label we use. And so I would acknowledge that, and I love you what you were talking about. I'm a child of God. There's this ah version of that song that the Bonnar family has. I cry every time that I listened to it it like No, it. Yeah,

spk_0:   19:27
it's very good.

spk_2:   19:28
Um, I think it's just called child of God, by the bond of family YouTube. They have a great music video, but, like, just I really feel a spirit every time I listen to that cause, like yelling out. I am a child of God, and I do believe that that is our most, you know, at top label. Yeah.

spk_0:   19:46
Great. Can I ask you a question that I've been asked before? Sure. Eso. Sometimes when I come out until someone I'm gay, they say, Ben, you're not gay. You're a child of God. How would you respond to that question?

spk_2:   20:00
If someone had told me or

spk_0:   20:02
that they said you're not gay, you're a child of God,

spk_2:   20:06
I would say, Oh, definitely. I'm both. I think I would probably say something like that, at least for me. Personally, I would say it's so okay to balance Wolf and and, well, I don't

spk_1:   20:20
think they're mutually exclusive. And I think that question is kind of rooted in and mentality of You can't be gay and be a faithful child of God. And I just so strongly disagree with that notion because I believe that God created me this wafers for, like, a special purpose in that because I am who I am. I can connect to other toe other Children of God and be a disciple of Christ in a way that maybe some people might not be able to in reach certain places and reached her in hearts. And so I think it's so. I think they can both holy occupy the same space of being a child of God and being gay, because that's that's I mean, because it's just me like and I don't know how to explain the other than the fact that, like, I don't know, it's just me. I feel both so strongly and they're both so interconnected in my spirit,

spk_0:   21:08
and it's also been really hard for me. Those times of people said Ben, you're not gay. You're a child of God because it feels really dismissive and invalidating. If you like, I can be both things and, uh and yeah,

spk_2:   21:19
well, it's totally I mean, if you're using the word gay as saying, I am sexually attracted to men predominantly than for someone to say No, you're not like that's just on untruth and it is, it is. It does feel. I mean, well, it's just wrong. It's like, Well, I am attracted to men So you can't say that I'm not like I would love to share on aspect about labels that I've learned recently There's some cool research that has been done, and obviously more research needs to be done. But from this sample, at least of Ray's Mormon or currently Mormon individuals labeling yourself as ah L G B L G B Q or essay there's actually no noticed health differences like mental or physical health differences. I just I released was really excited by that because like, Oh, great. So I'm not like dying over here because I'm labeling myself sss a or like, um, somebody over there isn't you know, it's just ah,

spk_1:   22:23
wild for labeling gay, right? Trying to say

spk_2:   22:26
right. So I just So obviously this is one sample. More research needs to be done, but at least I liked how it it came out as, uh, you know, the fit mental and physical health differences. We're not different with Mormons labeling themselves as either or

spk_0:   22:43
or Larry Descents

spk_2:   22:44
correct? Yes, label. That's the word to every time. Yes, but that's the way that it's important that you you figure out what you're comfortable with, your healthy with labeling yourself as, and that you're you feel like you're your lifestyle. Your goals are congruent with that label.

spk_0:   23:01
Okay, yeah, I like that. Thanks. Thank you for joining us today. Please remember that we do not represent the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints or Brigham Young University way. We're not trying to be prescriptive or tell anyone what to think or what to deal.

spk_1:   23:14
Today. You heard three perspectives and there are many, many more. We encourage you to listen to other voices in here, a wide variety of experiences. If you like to submit a question or share comment about today's episode, you can email us at questions from the closet at gmail dot com.

spk_0:   23:28
Until next time