Welcome to questions from the closet. I'm Ben Schilaty.
And I'm Charlie Bird. Each episode we discuss a question that we commonly get asked as LGBTQ Latter-day Saints.
We're not trying to answer this question or come to a consensus, but simply sharing our perspectives. Today's question is, should I go to therapy?
Ben and I are not terribly diverse, and we share many opinions and life experiences. For example, both of us lost class elections in high school.
However, there are some pretty big differences. For example, Charlie ran for president and I ran for Vice President. I don't want to have to plan High School reunions for the rest of my life. But I lost so...
I actually have to do that. And it's terrible.
That does sound awful. Anyway...
On this podcast, we like to provide a variety of voices and perspectives. So today, we're joined by Jeff.
Hi, I'm Jeff Case. I am a psychologist. I work primarily with veterans. I was a an army psychologist for a number of years before getting out of the army. And now I work with combat veterans and sexual trauma survivors from the military. That got heavy quickly, didn't it? But that's
Heavy stuff. kind of what I do. I, I am a Latter-day Saint. I am gay. I have been married to my wife for almost 23 years. We have three kids. We live in Happy Valley, Utah County. My wife is a middle school teacher and a lot of fun. I studied at BYU back in the 90s when I believed that I was the only gay kid on campus. kind of came out to myself during those years. Right before my mission, actually, my mission in Miami--serving in South Beach
12th Street Beach. was my first area--really, really solidified that understanding that I think I might be gay.
You know it. I did my undergrad degree at BYU in music. I was in the marching band. So I was band president.
Oh, whoa. So you won an election.
I it was an appointment by the director who really had...
You were that good. What instruments did you play?
Well, tuba is my primary instrument. But uh, I play piano and organ well enough to cover church. Played flute in the Army Band for a number of years.
I just see you as the flutist.
You know, when you're in a parade, and you have the option to carry 50 pounds of brass or a little stick--you're gonna go with a little stick every time.
One of my very best friends moved to Chicago to get a degree in harp performance. And I helped her move and she took two harps with her. I was like, "Leanne, why don't you just play the flute?"
Exactly right. We were at the end of a parade. And the tuba player said,"I have to go put my horn away." And I look back at him and said, "Yeah, me too." And I stuck my Piccolo in my pocket and just stared at him.
That's so fun.
Great. Well, Jeff, we want to talk to you about from your your clinical expertise. But we also just want to know what, what our experiences have been like attending therapy as LGBTQ people. So I actually mentioned this a couple weeks ago on one of our previous episodes, my experience going to therapy at BYU to change my orientation--how that didn't work, so I don't really need to mention that again. But Charlie what is your experience in therapy been like?
Yeah, I feel like I was, in a way very lead to go to therapy. Back when I was at BYU, I was I was Cosmo. Every time I get a side eye from Ben. It's like everyone knows...
Wait, what?
Yeah, I was the dancing Cougar.
Wait, on Cosmo magazine--there's some dancing Cougar?
No Cosmo, the cougar Brigham Young University. Get it? Right, folks.
Black eyes.
He's been listening. So yeah, I was I was working on some new tricks. And I was really trying to get them. But I needed more like technical training and a little bit more time in the gym. And the cheer coach was gracious enough to tell me I could come to some of their practices when they're working tumbling on Tuesday mornings. So by some miracle, I woke up at six in the morning
and made it their practice. And I was so disappointed when I walked in because the practice had been replaced by like a presentation from the psychological services department. And I was like, "Oh my gosh, I don't have time for this." And, and this time, I was really struggling, I'd been going through a lot and hadn't come out to anyone. And I was just kind of like, crippling and dying inside especially--and just trying to stay so busy that I wouldn't have to think about
it. But it wasn't working. And I had some friends on the squad and I was like, "I'm awake. I might as well just sit through this, this presentation." And the last slide was a list of kind of indicators that might say that, like you might think of going to therapy if you're experiencing any of this. And I was reading through the list things like you know, anxiety, stress, restlessness, like just feeling low, feeling not good enough and I can't exactly
remember. I feel weird because I'm the only non-therapist on the show today.
I'm a CSW not an LCSW. So I don't, I'm not fully licensed.
Well, for a lot of people, there's a real stigma
Well, I'm sure you can tell us a little bit more about those indicators. But I looked through the list and I was like, every single one of them I had been experiencing that semester. And so I ended up talking to my coach later that day and asked if Cosmo had the same access to therapy as the cheer squad. And it turns out, I did. So that's kind of what got me going in. And it happened very quickly. And it was, it felt very inspired. It was like a big leap of faith for me to finally get
there. But I had to have it like painted out in a presentation slide like "You need to go t therapy." And it took that for about therapy, right? So when I'm in a room of students, I will often ask raise your hand, if you have a dentist, right? Raise your hand, if you have a family practice doc. Raise your hand, if you have a physical therapist. Who has a chiropractor in the room? Who goes to see a therapist every week? And the room starts coughing and everyone stares at
their shoes. Because there's a real stigma about mental illness that even calling it "mental illness" is kind of ridiculous, because your brain is part of your bod--surprise! But there's a real stigma about going to seek help. And so a lot of people really suffer way longer than they need to, because of how we talk about mental illness and how we look about look at people who are in therapy.
I think for a long time, I thought therapy was something that was amazing for somebody else, but not for me.
Yeah, well, it's it's a difficult conclusion to kind of come to to realize that we do need help. And when one of my mission companions had a kidney disorder, and we had to take it easy on certain days, we had to watch hydration levels, and if he ever got sick, we had to like shut down. And no one ever thought twice about that. I'm like, "Oh, man, that sucks you have a kidney problem," right?
But when the brain starts misfiring, we have a whole different conversation about that--they're they're weak, they're broken. When I was in my Officer Basic Training course, this is the the Army Medical Department--we had a presentation that was given by our instructor who was a he--was a medic medical evacuation pilot--they call him "dust off",
he was a dust off pilot. And he described the the scenes that he would go in on his three combat tours of kind of coming in, picking up battlefield casualties and back out again, usually under fire in really stressful situations life or death. And as he was talking about his stories, he said that it was important for him to go see a therapist, to kind of work through this. And as he did that, he got like teary eyed. And it was a really beautiful
moment, I thought. But as we were leaving that room, I overheard a couple physicians say, "What a sissy." And I'm like, this is from the medical community, how are we still talking about therapy in these terms? What is it going to take for us to normalize the process of going to therapy?
I am trained as a social worker and, and my my most recent experience with therapy was just a couple years ago. I was in the middle of my program, and I was doing my summer internship and something really triggering happened. And I remember like sobbing one night, just like sobbing, and I just needed to reach out. So I reached out to some of my social work colleagues. And they're like, "Ben, you need to go to therapy." And I was like, "I'm fine. I don't need to go to therapy." Here I am like
training to be a therapist. And since I was attending BYU, I signed up to go to the BYU Counseling Center. Actually, all my therapy experiences have been at BYU. And so I signed up to see a therapist, and we only met twice. But as we were talking, she started teaching me about minority stress. And I realized that I've been doing so many things, because I had this fear that if I made if I made any mistakes, if I did anything wrong, like my church, and my community was just going to
erase me and forget me. And like that had just been weighing on me. And I remember she, the therapist, called me a "minority." And I'm like, "I'm not a minority. I'm a tall, white English speaking male with hair, like I am not a minority." And she said, "Ben, you're gay in the Latter-day Saint community and that makes you a minority. And that causes stress." And so as we were able to talk through that, I realized all the things I did to to to show that I belonged in the
community. And after we talked, I was like, Okay, well, these are the things I'm going to do differently. And I changed some of my behaviors. And after two sessions, I was fine. Like I was, I was in a much better place. And it's interesting that, you know, sometimes there are long term things that we need to talk about for a long time, but for me, it was really just learning that I was minority and the things that I was doing, that were causing extra stress.
Yeah, exactly. Right. And I think to answer that question, "Should I go to therapy?" I think everyone should go to therapy. But I'm going to say that it's a very privileged thing to be able to go to therapy and and mental health is a is a touchy subject, because for a lot of individuals who really need it, there's not access to it, right? It's expensive for a lot of people and and to have access to therapy in general is kind of a
privilege thing. Because I think a lot of people could really benefit from it.
So what are some alternatives or maybe like ways to access therapy that somebody could use if they don't really have the means or the privilege to be able to easily access?
Great question. First of all, most communities that I know of have community mental health care. So going online and looking up looking for community mental health care, or ways to get into it that are affordable, they're out there. There are other ways to go about it as well like through bibliotherapy. So some, some good self-help books, can can be beneficial. There are good workbooks out there for some individuals. It just depends on what is it that you're looking for. So why would
a person go into therapy? It depends on a number of different variables. So in some cases, there are people that have significant mental illness, right? Psychological disorders, we, we all experience mood, right? There's a normal range where mood exists that we can that we have, that that we're mood instructs us, and it motivates us. Sometimes it's uncomfortable, like anger or stress or depression. And sometimes mood is comfortable and motivating in a positive
way, right? But then that mood can creep outside this, these normal parameters, and anxiety--which is a good thing, because there are rattlesnakes in the world--and it's good to have anxiety, but when but when you look at a worm on the sidewalk, the same as a rattlesnake, your anxiety is a bit out of step and can get reeled in can get some help for that. So that's kind of in
general therapy. But the question is like, should LGBTQ people individually, specifically, seek therapy and I say, it can be very helpful, right? It can be helpful, working through a lot of the shame issues, the internalized homophobia that we all have to kind of go through before we can even really admit to ourselves, right? One of my early experiences in grad school, we had to--it was my very first semester--we took a class called "helping skills, which was like
Therapy 101. But we had to like pair up in our, with our classmates, and do a 20 minute therapy session on each other just practicing empathy and listening. And our professor came back and said, "I watched all your videos. My first comment is you all need therapy." And that was the first time I've ever been told "You all need therapy." But it can be a really helpful thing just to kind of understand yourself.
Yeah, I think Elder Holland kind of broke ground on this. It was a general conference talk he gave I think in October 2013.
Yeah.
Oh, you actually pulled it up?
Yeah, I just pulled it up.
I guess I'll just read it. It says, "When talking specifically about depression, anxiety and emotional affliction, Elder Holland gave the following counsel: 'Seek advice from reputable people with certified training, professional skills and good values, be honest with them about your history and your
struggles. prayerfully and responsibly consider the council they give and the solutions they prescribe.'" I remember listening to that talk and Elder Holland talking about his experience with with depression, and how it just came suddenly and unexpectedly. And then he said something like, if we're sick, we get a blessing and we go to the doctor. And he said, if we are emotionally sick, then it would make sense for us to get a blessing and also go to
see a professional. And so I would ask the person to check in with themselves. If we if we compare something like the worst, or a severe situation to to our situation that might be more common. That doesn't mean that our situation doesn't require help. And, and as I as I work with clients, and help them learn some of these skills, these these things can be life
changing. And so I think that we can, if we're feeling a place where we want something to be better, or we want to see an improvement, of course it doesn't hurt to to get a little to get a little help even if we're not the worst case.
Well, and that's the idea that that there are many people who come in for treatment who need to understand themselves better, resolve some conflicts that may not fall on the list of diagnosable disorders but benefiting from just taking a minute to pause and be introspective. We talk a lot about, right now, self-care during this COVID-19 stuff, right? Part of self-care is just pausing and focusing on yourself--what is it that I need? And and psychotherapy is a great place to do that where the
attention is on me. That was for me, the most uncomfortable thing about going to therap--when I was an undergrad student also at BYU also at the Counseling Center.--found a great therapist. I just got lucky. First of all, sitting in the waiting room was so anxiety-inducing. Like everyone is staring at their shoes. Like they're the most interesting pair of shoes they've ever seen. No one wants to be seen.
I will say that my shoes were usually pretty interesting.
Yeah. I buy it. I was probably wearing flip flops. I was looking at my toes but--not interesting. But going in and like having the attention on me and I remember sitting down in that chair that first time and him looking at me expecting me to say something about me. I don't do that very much. I play the tuba. I'm In the back of the band, I'm not out front. I love talking as a therapist to other people because it's not about me. And that's my favorite place to be. So it was really useful.
I did it strategically. I went into the therapist in my last semester before I graduated. That way, if it sucked, I could just graduate and go on with my life. But it was so helpful, just to have a place and sit and not to be judged. And to experience really kind of understanding myself for the first time.
And it can be such a powerful experience to just talk to someone who isn't involved in your life, and have them just reflect back the things you're saying so that you can see yourself in a way that maybe you haven't seen yourself before. And that is a can be a really powerful healing experience.
Yeah, I think a good chunk of my therapy, it wasn't even focused on being gay--and and I was married at the time, I'd been married for about two years--and we actually already had our first son. But the bigger issue that I had to work on was perfectionism, and this really twisted view that I had of the atonement, that the atonement didn't apply to me somehow in my mental gymnastics.
But I sat in the room with this guy, who fully accepted me for whatever I brought to the table, no matter how ridiculous, he never laughed at me. But he just said, "Let me just kind of show you what you look like right now." And I'm like, "Oh, my gosh!" I'm laughing at myself. Who? Who thinks these thoughts, right? The it was it was centered around the idea that the pictures of Jesus when he's angry are the ones that I love the most. If he's like, hugging
people, I hate it. If he looks nice and happy and smiley, not for me. That's not my Jesus. Mine is the one who started condemning, right? But he kind of just sit and sort of like talked through that and it showed me kind of that I wasn't believing even in Christ the way that I, I say I was believing.
Yeah. So something you said earlier about everyone sitting in that room, looking at their shoes kind of being embarrassed--that was definitely my experience initially. And I really felt a lot of shame that I needed therapy, I felt embarrassed, that I couldn't handle things on my own. Something that really helped me was kind of normalizing the experience of going to therapy. And kind of casually mentioning it to someone without it being like this big deal that I had
kind of built it up to be. Along with that, I remember one time I walked in, I walked into the room. It's funny that we all had therapy experiences in the same space....
In the bowels of the Wilkinson Center?
But I walked in there, and there's a window and I saw an ex-girlfriend that was that was waiting in line to be called. And I was like, "I cannot go in there." Because like I was there. Because Because you know, I'd broken up with her. I was like, "I'm gay." And I was freaking out. And like, in a lot of ways, I don't--I can't say she was the catalyst for that--but it was just something that was like I
hadn't worked through. And I was like, "I cannot let her see me here because she's gonna be like, Oh, what is he doing?" Like, "I wonder, you know, like, what's his deal?" And then I started walking away. And then I like, stopped myself. And I was like, "You know what, I am so proud that she's here. I have no idea what she's going through. But I'm so glad that she's here. And I'm proud that I'm here too. Because I recognize that there's
something I can't do. And I'm trying to better myself and make me become better," you know? And that moment, probably that day was even more--I learned more from that than actually going to that therapy session because it helped me normalize the experience and be proud that I was, I guess humble enough or willing to to do something that I still kind of felt was shameful.
And I think that's where we can really learn from our discomfort. So you sat there in that uncomfortable place waiting outside the doors that we've all been standing outside those doors thinking, "No, no, no," right? What's what's gonna push me in, and you sat in that discomfort, and the discomfort taught you something? Like why am I uncomfortable? Why? What's
the big deal here? And then by doing that by kind of what we call it "opposite action" when you're uncomfortable, so you want to pull away but if you do opposite action and lean into it, right? You lean into that discomfort, it can teach you something? Like why do I feel ashamed? Why am I am I nervous about her being in here and me being here? This is great. Now that I think about it what uh--and I think that's what you can do in a treatment setting.
That's really unique. I think, even just like the waiting room, there's a lot of a lot of therapy that happens in the waiting room just being there.
What would you say to someone who is feeling that, that anxiety about going that discomfort and doesn't know how to push through the discomfort?
Well, that's where it can be helpful to have someone to talk to about that. Right? So we had to kind of understand again, that mood is is there is designed to kind of teach us and motivate us, right? To to give us instruction so we have to be able to sit with it. But there are some moods when they get really severe that it's hard to do that. For some people until you can kind of sit and learn from it, you have to be able to kind of pull back a little bit
from that mood. So in a moment that you're having an extreme like a panic panic attack, for example, that's an, that's an anxiety situation that's pushed really far out, you're not going to learn a lot of good information in the midst of a panic attack. So sometimes, if you can't learn from it, just to kind of sit there and ride the wave, right? And if you can kind of ride the wave and ride it out, you're not going to panic
to death. Like no one that I know he's ever felt themselves to death, it doesn't keep going up and up until your heart blows up. At some point, it evens out, and it comes back down. So in those moments that the mood is very extreme, if you are in a very severe depressive episode, you're not going to learn anything good about yourself in that place. Right? But kind of learning how to ride the wave to get back out of it. That's that's the critical piece.
There's there's this misconception that if you are in our space of gay and Mormon, you're definitely going to be mentally ill somehow that that's, that that's part of it. Right? And I think it's good to understand that that's not the case, we shouldn't presume mental illness where there isn't one. I've been having this discussion a lot over transgender service in the military--people believe in that if you are transgender by itself, you are mentally ill.
And that's not the case. While there are rates that are higher than than cisgender individuals, it's not to say that if you are here, then you have a mental health problem. Being gay is not a mental health related problem. Even though we do know that in the LGBT community, there are higher rates of mental illness than in within the straight
population. Right? So it may not be for everyone to go do, but I think for those who need it, and have the the the means to be able to access it, go and do it, learn something about yourself that you didn't learn that you didn't know before. Right?
So Jeff, let's say there's someone listening to this podcast, who is coming to terms with their sexual orientation or gender identity, and they're thinking, should I go to therapy? What would be some indicators that you would encourage them to go?
Well, I would ask them, What is what it is they are hoping to get out of therapy? Right? Are you? Are you hoping to resolve conflict? In which case that's a great place to go to therapy. Are they hoping to reinforce ideas or beliefs that are not helpful? That's not a good reason to go to therapy. Right? I think indicators could be just if your mood again, if you experienced mood on a level that's kind of outside the normal range, or if you have relationship problems.
So people who, for a number, a number of individuals, their psychological problems could lead to dysfunctional relationships. So if they're in bad relationship after another after another, that's a good sign that you might need to go get some help. Because either you're choosing unhealthy partners, or you might be
unhealthy yourself, right? If you're working in a job that you're not functional at, where you're not able to kind of take care of, of tasks that you really ought to be able to take care of based on your training or education. These are good things you can go get help with, to kind of get back on on the path. And and sometimes, like I said, most people experience resiliency after a trauma or after a hard event. So not everyone who's gone through trauma even needs to go to
therapy. There's a lot of resilience that's kind of out there. But there are a number of people who, after trauma, do you need to kind of get get some help to kind of talk through it. Right?
Do you think that resilience and the need to go to therapy can sometimes live in the same space?
Yeah, absolutely. So with within the resiliency literature, you can have resiliency, and you can also have mental illness, you're going to have both at the same time. Another component of that is post traumatic growth, that after trauma there is a lot of people experience a period of growth. They looked at this with with some Vietnam vets that had been housed in the Hanoi Hilton, right? They were tortured for years. They went back and surveyed these individuals in
the mid 80s. So they've been out for about 10 years, looking for PTSD. And of course, they found it. But they also had indices of growth that they were surprised to find that people were saying, "Yeah, the grass is a lot greener now. My wife's cooking is a lot better. I really appreciate time with my kids more." And there were indices of growth that occurred simultaneously with indices of disorder of post traumatic
stress disorder. So you can have resiliency and also be struggling look at Frodo at the end of his journey. Right? He was a stronger, better person, but there are still parts of him that were hurting, that were still sore that he had to work through. Well, and then float off on a boat with the elves.
Spoiler alert,
Sorry.
One thing I want to add about my experience is that I did not stay with the same therapist the whole time. In fact, after I think it was two sessions, I switched therapists because I just wasn't sure if it would be the best fit. And it turned out that the next one was an incredible fit. And I kept using him for a really long time
and still do. As you're as you're trying to find what you're looking for, I think, like giving myself that leeway to like, really understand the kind of like dynamic I wanted with my therapist was really important. And you you may not get it right exactly the first time.
Well, that's and that's a good topic because I think it's important to recognize that we're going to have an interpersonal experience in therapy. And to have that we have to have a good interpersonal connection. And not everybody is for every every client. So your connection with your therapist is actually a really big deal. It accounts for about a third of all the variants in your ability to change in the process of
therapy, right? Yeah, as a client, you bring a lot of stuff into the room, that's going to impact how you're able to change. And but a big part of that is that therapeutic relationship and as a therapist, that's, that's my biggest tool is the relationship that I formed with that person, so that that relationship is a big deal.
And I think it is a good idea to look for a therapist that kind of matches, maybe what your needs are, or clicks on some level, they may challenge you and push you by being a different person than you think you need. So there's not a really good formula for how to pick the right therapist. But it is important to have one that you can form a relationship with.
Well, if you don't know what your needs are, are there any ways? Because like, I remember going in, I would take like an initial survey of like, what I was feeling and like what I was looking for. Are there standardized, things like that in a therapy world? Or no?
For some cases? Yes. So in some situations, there are therapists that are trained specifically for childhood trauma, or specifically trained in dialectical behavior therapy for borderline personality, or suicidality, right? There are therapists that do have specialty areas. And so if that is you, then please go find a specialist that can treat a specialized condition. Otherwise, therapists in general can treat kind of whatever walks
in the room. So when you fill out that little survey of what you're kind of looking for, unless it's really remarkable, or one of these specialized things, like an eating disorder, does better with a specific eating disorder kind of clinic, right? Otherwise, it's kind of just how you feel in the room with that person, can you be vulnerable? Can I let my guard down? Can I really make myself available to myself and to this other person? Or are my guards
up? And I'm just not, I'm just not going to feel that way. Yeah, so shop around, in fact, some people say go to three therapists, do one session with each therapist, and see which jives the best--where you feel the most comfortable. And they may challenge you so it may not be comfortable, but if you can kind of learn from that discomfort, that's fine, too.
That's beautiful advice.
You know, a lot of people when they ask me, you know, who is a good therapist? Who can you recommend? Because...
He's like...me!
Because I know, I'm a therapist. And I, of course, I know everything.
That's funny, because I'm like, "Not me."
Ben Schilaty
I'm so busy. I don't want any more. I definitely wouldn't recommend myself to a friend. I think that'd be unethical. Anyway. But I would I just say, who does your insurance cover? You know...
Start there, because it is a financial decision.
Yep. And, and therapists are all trained and licensed. And you can find a great person based that youre your insurance covers.
Yeah, that's important. And look for cultural competence. So if you're in the minority group, whatever minority that is, it can be useful to find someone who has a competence in that cultural background at least. And I will say this--so and this kind of exists again, on when when mood gets big, if you're having thoughts of suicide, or if you're thinking about ending your life, or that that self-hate rises so much, please
get help. And, and in those emergency situations where it becomes a matter of life or death, the emergency rooms will take you in. They have mental health workers on call, they have people that will be there. My boss has done that job a couple times. I know friends that have worked on call for ERs, please go get help. Because you're in a place where it does become life or death--how we can talk a whole episode maybe about
suicide sometime. But just to kind of say that people that are pushed there are pushed there, usually by temporary stressors that can be resolved. Please get help. Whatever that looks like, but like I said, even if it's just going to the ER, there's a great app called "Safe UT," where you can chat with a crisis worker and maybe get help that direction if you don't--if you're not comfortable going into an ER. But there are some good there are really good good
resources out there. For LGBT brothers and sisters, go to the Pride Center in Salt Lake. They have a whole bevy of mental health resources available. They're located on Main Street near 13th East--so just just right by the the baseball stadium. So baseball is a sport that straight people play. But it's it's close to the the Bee's ballpark. And it's a great resource, there are there are plenty people that can help the the Encircle House has access and can get you to resources for
mental health as well. So there are places to go. So please, if you're in that group that's thinking of ending your life, please get help.
All right, Jeff, thank you so much for joining us today and for your expertise and your personal story. And just for being a fun person to talk to.
I have thoroughly enjoyed it. You guys keep doing this great work that you're doing because it's really important.
Thank you. I was complimenting you so that you would compliment me back!
Naturally. That's how we do it.
All right, I think we're done here.
Thank you for joining us today. And please remember that we do not represent the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints or Brigham Young University. We're not trying to be prescriptive or tell anyone what to think or what to do.
You heard three perspectives, and there are many, many more. We encourage you to listen to other voices and hear a wide variety of experiences. If you would like to submit a question or share a comment about today's episode, you can email us at questionsfromthecloset@gmail.com. Until next time...